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The Talibanization/Arabization of Pakistan

Saudification has been happening in earnest for decades now. Even if we ignore terrorism and madrasahs for a minute and focus just on the mainstream, it is there.

There is the gratuitous use of "Al." Stroll down the average bazaar and look at the names of the shops. They are all Al-this and Al-that. Off the top of my head, in my neighborhood there was an Al-Jannat chemist, an Al-Qazi grocers, an Al-Khidmat doctor, and an Al-Faisal clothing store.

Speaking of Faisal, this name, and the name Saud, were unknown in Pakistan until we became the chattels of the "Muqaddas Mulk." You'll see an inordinate number of kids (and 20- and 30-somethings) named Saud and Faisal. Soon enough there will be Bandars too. I even knew a Shah Saud, a Shehzada Faisal, and a Faisal bin Saud in school, nevermind the run-of-the-mill Sauds, Faisals, Jasims, Tamims and Hamads.

Speaking of "Bin," people have started adding it (and Binte for girls) as part of their kids' names.

We have taken to naming highways and towns after the monarchs of Nejd. What really gets my goat (camel?) is that eyesore of a mosque blighting the capital. It had to look like a Bedouin tent, and it had to be named after that king, didn't it? They were even planning on uprooting the spruces and cedars and pines and planting date palms in their stead.

More on the religious mass conversion to Wahhabism later.


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I'l tell you something even worse

They've been teaching al-gebra and al-chemy to girls and boys in pakistan for years now
Talk about brainwashing them with fundamentalism
 
Saudification has been happening in earnest for decades now. Even if we ignore terrorism and madrasahs for a minute and focus just on the mainstream, it is there.

There is the gratuitous use of "Al." Stroll down the average bazaar and look at the names of the shops. They are all Al-this and Al-that. Off the top of my head, in my neighborhood there was an Al-Jannat chemist, an Al-Qazi grocers, an Al-Khidmat doctor, and an Al-Faisal clothing store.

Speaking of Faisal, this name, and the name Saud, were unknown in Pakistan until we became the chattels of the "Muqaddas Mulk." You'll see an inordinate number of kids (and 20- and 30-somethings) named Saud and Faisal. Soon enough there will be Bandars too. I even knew a Shah Saud, a Shehzada Faisal, and a Faisal bin Saud in school, nevermind the run-of-the-mill Sauds, Faisals, Jasims, Tamims and Hamads.

Speaking of "Bin," people have started adding it (and Binte for girls) as part of their kids' names.

We have taken to naming highways and towns after the monarchs of Nejd. What really gets my goat (camel?) is that eyesore of a mosque blighting the capital. It had to look like a Bedouin tent, and it had to be named after that king, didn't it? They were even planning on uprooting the spruces and cedars and pines and planting date palms in their stead.

More on the religious mass conversion to Wahhabism later.


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Now this thread has taken a strange turn. I am no student of family history which is definitely a trend these days, but I do know my ancestry back to the last 100 years ago, and if anything the names were more Islamic back then than they are now. From my experience it's always been the Sikhs who have tried to pass themselves off in the UK as Jimmy or Johnny.
 
Now this thread has taken a strange turn. I am no student of family history which is definitely a trend these days, but I do know my ancestry back to the last 100 years ago, and if anything the names were more Islamic back then than they are now. From my experience it's always been the Sikhs who have tried to pass themselves off in the UK as Jimmy or Johnny.

dont forget "paul", lol, dont have a problem with it tho, i like how chinese people give their kids chinese and non-chinese names, a pragmatic approach by a pragmatic people.
 
All this talk of names and similar things is useless. None of you should care unless its affecting your life by somebody who force it on you.
 
dont forget "paul", lol, dont have a problem with it tho, i like how chinese people give their kids chinese and non-chinese names, a pragmatic approach by a pragmatic people.

Tony and Bobby were also popular. Seems like a dying trend these days though, with the influx from South India it sometimes seems like the whole alphabet is included in a single name.
 
All this talk of names and similar things is useless. None of you should care unless its affecting your life by somebody who force it on you.

But hey, Islam is ruining our lives.

If only liberal parties like MQM PPP and ANP were in power...........
 
But hey, Islam is ruining our lives.

If only liberal parties like MQM PPP and ANP were in power...........

How are they liberal when they waste time over things like how somebody's number plate looks like or how somebody pronounce a word, there is zero tolerance in this. They are probably confused people who think bashing Islam or Arabs equal to liberalism.
 
How are they liberal when they waste time over things like how somebody's number plate looks like or how somebody pronounce a word, there is zero tolerance in this. They are probably confused people who think bashing Islam or Arabs equal to liberalism.

Yeah.

True liberalism is something I whole heartedly support.
 
Nostalgics hate for Islam is a bit sickening some times.

What hate? I have no hate for Islam whatsoever. It is my faith and I plan on it remaining that.

I do have a seething hatred for the Nejdi kingdom, its particular sectarian flavor of Islam, its emergence as the default Islam, and what it's influence has done to my country.


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but I do know my ancestry back to the last 100 years ago, and if anything the names were more Islamic back then than they are now.

But there were no Sauds and Faisals and Tamims and Jasims and Hamads, were there? These came along only recently, as a result of the Saudi influence.


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But there were no Sauds and Faisals and Tamims and Jasims and Hamads, were there? These came along only recently, as a result of the Saudi influence.

I agree that political and religious influence of saudis is harmful for Pakistan but why do you care what people choose their names as? Would you have problem if people choose such names as Zaidi, Najafi, Jaffri or Naqvi?
 
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What hate? I have no hate for Islam whatsoever. It is my faith and I plan on it remaining that.

I do have a seething hatred for the Nejdi kingdom, its particular sectarian flavor of Islam, its emergence as the default Islam, and what it's influence has done to my country.


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Your hate spreads to Islam a bit


I agree with your signature. The Molvis are the ones mis-representing Islam so target them not the faith. You also need to understand that it's the so called liberals (who don't tolerate anyone who is conservative) who give fuel to the extremist fire at times.
 
I agree that political and religious influence of saudis is harmful for Pakistan but why do you care what people choose their names as? Would you have problem if people choose such names as Zaidi, Najafi, Jaffri or Naqvi?

Sure, people can name their kids anything they want. The point is though that the use of these names is a symptom of the disease, i.e. Saudification, and that I do have an issue with, and you do too if I'm not mistaken.


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Your hate spreads to Islam a bit

How so? What have I said that encroaches on the faith itself?

agree with your signature. The Molvis are the ones mis-representing Islam so target them not the faith.

I believe I do exactly that and nothing more.

You also need to understand that it's the so called liberals (who don't tolerate anyone who is conservative) who give fuel to the extremist fire at times.

How so? There are no liberals who are forcing anyone to follow their beliefs, whatever they may be. The reverse isn't true.


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There is this very false narrative being peddled by the liberals in Pakistan that Pakistan is being "Arabised/Talibanised". From saying "Allah Hafiz" to naming your kids, anything that resembles arabic even remotely will be pounced upon by the Afeem Parata and his ilk. Most of it is deliberately dishonest and at best intellectually lazy! If I say "Allah Hafiz" instead of "Khuda Hafiz", it is not because I believe arabic is superior, I do it because "Allah" is the actual name of God, in fact it is the most important name since there cannot be multiples of it in Arabic on the other hand "Khuda" is just a persian term for god and it could be any god. Not only that the liberals have a massive problem with using even Arabic words, forgetting the fact that we use Persionized Arabic script to write urdu, in addition to the fact that quite a heavy chunk of Urdu itself is made up off Arabic! Yet these liberals will shamelessly switch to English from their mother tongue while speaking just so they sound educated and hence they'll feel superior! I used to believe in Pakistan Hypocrisy is spread evenly among different social classes and ideologies but liberals in the past decade have been trying to out do their counterparts as if they'll be left behind if they didn't!
 
Yeah.

True liberalism is something I whole heartedly support.

if you want to support "true" liberalism then i would start by not referring to anp, mqm and ppp as "liberal".

Nostalgic is right. Naming our kids as arabs would shows a confused national identity. We're not arabs.
 
There is this very false narrative being peddled by the liberals in Pakistan that Pakistan is being "Arabised/Talibanised". From saying "Allah Hafiz" to naming your kids, anything that resembles arabic even remotely will be pounced upon by the Afeem Parata and his ilk. Most of it is deliberately dishonest and at best intellectually lazy! If I say "Allah Hafiz" instead of "Khuda Hafiz", it is not because I believe arabic is superior, I do it because "Allah" is the actual name of God, in fact it is the most important name since there cannot be multiples of it in Arabic on the other hand "Khuda" is just a persian term for god and it could be any god. Not only that the liberals have a massive problem with using even Arabic words, forgetting the fact that we use Persionized Arabic script to write urdu, in addition to the fact that quite a heavy chunk of Urdu itself is made up off Arabic! Yet these liberals will shamelessly switch to English from their mother tongue while speaking just so they sound educated and hence they'll feel superior! I used to believe in Pakistan Hypocrisy is spread evenly among different social classes and ideologies but liberals in the past decade have been trying to out do their counterparts as if they'll be left behind if they didn't!

I think we usually point out the fact that we went from having an alcohol drinking steak eating founding father to state institutionalizing discrimination against Ahmedis and implementing ridiculous laws such as the blasphemy law and hudood ordinance.

You are delusional if you don't think there's any arab influence that has shifted Pakistan to the extremes of conservatism in the last few decades.
 
if you want to support "true" liberalism then i would start by not referring to anp, mqm and ppp as "liberal".

Nostalgic is right. Naming our kids as arabs would shows a confused national identity. We're not arabs.

:facepalm::facepalm: ..... That is the most absurd thing I've ever read!....naming your kids with Arab names shows confused nationality? How about naming your kid Muhammad, Aysha, Hafsa, Khadeeja, Asad, Khalid, Usman, Ali, Hamza?... These are also Arabic names, in fact some of these are the most popular choice for naming kids.... does that mean there is confusion about nationality? Or could it be that people name their kids after Islamic Historical figures because they are these people are Honoured amongst muslims?....How about the fact that there are still people in North America using Irish, British, Russian, German names etc... and they haven been living here for generations! Does that mean they are confused about their nationality?...... By the way what alternative names would you suggest for Muslims, seeing as how most Muslim names are Arab/Persian? since liberals want us to identify ourselves with our "Indian" heritage then why not Rama, Geeta, Rahul and Vikram?
 
I think we usually point out the fact that we went from having an alcohol drinking steak eating founding father to state institutionalizing discrimination against Ahmedis and implementing ridiculous laws such as the blasphemy law and hudood ordinance.

You are delusional if you don't think there's any arab influence that has shifted Pakistan to the extremes of conservatism in the last few decades.

Let's get some historical facts right first.

1) Jinnah had stopped drinking and eating pork (by steak I am assuming you meant pork) in the later stages of his life. I'd suggest you read Akbar S. Ahmed's "Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic Identity: The Search for Saladin"

2) Even before the Ahmedis were declared non muslims, it was Mirza Ghulam Ahmed who had branded all the people who didn't believe in his claims as Kafirs. Not only that, he went on to add that since they didn't believe in him their Nikkah wasn't valid either implying any child born out of such a marriage would be a bast*rd.

As for state denying their rights to vote and freedom of religion, you are right, the state had no business in enforcing such a cruel law!

3) While you harp on about Arab Influence you deliberately ignore or at best forget the detrimental effects of western influence on Pakistani culture as well. You should've read the part about Liberals switching to english while talking to feel superio! if using arab names, wearing their clothes and using arabic words is wrong then wearing Jeans, using english, french or any other foreign language should be seen as negative as well but you liberals only and only throw a hissy fit when something is perceived to be Arabic. As for extremism, Liberals are not very far behind in terms of extremism either and don't tell me that you are better because you are non-violent, the three largest liberal/secular parties within Pakistan ANP/MQM/PPPP can be just as violent as the Taliban!
 
Let's get some historical facts right first.

1) Jinnah had stopped drinking and eating pork (by steak I am assuming you meant pork) in the later stages of his life. I'd suggest you read Akbar S. Ahmed's "Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic Identity: The Search for Saladin"

2) Even before the Ahmedis were declared non muslims, it was Mirza Ghulam Ahmed who had branded all the people who didn't believe in his claims as Kafirs. Not only that, he went on to add that since they didn't believe in him their Nikkah wasn't valid either implying any child born out of such a marriage would be a bast*rd.

As for state denying their rights to vote and freedom of religion, you are right, the state had no business in enforcing such a cruel law!

3) While you harp on about Arab Influence you deliberately ignore or at best forget the detrimental effects of western influence on Pakistani culture as well. You should've read the part about Liberals switching to english while talking to feel superio! if using arab names, wearing their clothes and using arabic words is wrong then wearing Jeans, using english, french or any other foreign language should be seen as negative as well but you liberals only and only throw a hissy fit when something is perceived to be Arabic. As for extremism, Liberals are not very far behind in terms of extremism either and don't tell me that you are better because you are non-violent, the three largest liberal/secular parties within Pakistan ANP/MQM/PPPP can be just as violent as the Taliban!

1) And...? The fact that Jinnah chose to stop doing something on a PERSONAL basis means that we should have state implementation of religion intruding in our day to day lives? What are you getting at here? That was his personal decision. It should not determine whether the state has a right to say if you can drink or eat pork. In fact, alcohol was banned nearly three decades after Jinnah's death when Bhutto succumbed to mounting religious conservatism.

2) What kind of logic is that? Do they target orthodox muslims and kill them? Do they have laws implemented where orthodox muslims are given out unrealistically and inhumanely harsh penalties? Are you really trying to justify these inhumanely unrealistic barbaric laws? Ahmedis are one of the most peaceful communities in Pakistan. As long as they don't harm others, who cares what they believe? Why must the state take the responsibility of prosecuting perfectly peaceful men and women?

3) First of all I doubt you know what the word liberal means. Essentially it is anyone who advocates equality and freedom. We should all strive to be liberals. Secondly, switching to English is hardly a liberal ideal (lol?) and nor is it in anyway detrimental to society. English is by the way our national language, not arabic, sadly enough. You know you are confused when you think wearing jeans, speaking french and english is the country's biggest problem. Let's just ignore the Taliban, illiteracy, women oppression and lack of egalitarianism. Let's focus on people who speak English and wear jeans, oh and god forbid they do it at the same time. I can just see the havoc a jean wearing English speaking woman would create. /sarcasm

If you are suggesting that the PPP, MQM and ANP are liberal, you have NO idea what liberalism entails, but it's really not surprising. All three of these parties violate the idea of liberalism at the most fundamental levels.

:facepalm::facepalm: ..... That is the most absurd thing I've ever read!....naming your kids with Arab names shows confused nationality? How about naming your kid Muhammad, Aysha, Hafsa, Khadeeja, Asad, Khalid, Usman, Ali, Hamza?... These are also Arabic names, in fact some of these are the most popular choice for naming kids.... does that mean there is confusion about nationality? Or could it be that people name their kids after Islamic Historical figures because they are these people are Honoured amongst muslims?....How about the fact that there are still people in North America using Irish, British, Russian, German names etc... and they haven been living here for generations! Does that mean they are confused about their nationality?...... By the way what alternative names would you suggest for Muslims, seeing as how most Muslim names are Arab/Persian? since liberals want us to identify ourselves with our "Indian" heritage then why not Rama, Geeta, Rahul and Vikram?

My comments were in reference to Nostalgic, you've taken them wildly out of context.
 
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1) And...? The fact that Jinnah chose to stop doing something on a PERSONAL basis means that we should have state implementation of religion intruding in our day to day lives? What are you getting at here? That was his personal decision. It should not determine whether the state has a right to say if you can drink or eat pork. In fact, alcohol was banned nearly three decades after Jinnah's death when Bhutto succumbed to mounting religious conservatism.

2) What kind of logic is that? Do they target orthodox muslims and kill them? Do they have laws implemented where orthodox muslims are given out unrealistically and inhumanely harsh penalties? Are you really trying to justify these inhumanely unrealistic barbaric laws? Ahmedis are one of the most peaceful communities in Pakistan. As long as they don't harm others, who cares what they believe? Why must the state take the responsibility of prosecuting perfectly peaceful men and women?


You obviously don't know how to read do you?

The first two points were about correcting history and nothing else and you can see that I wrote let's get the history right first. BTW, where exactly did I say the Ahmadis need to be persecuted? In fact if you see below my second point you'd see the following statement, which you either deliberately ignored to prove your point or in your seething rage you just missed it. Anyways that is what I wrote:

As for state denying their rights to vote and freedom of religion, you are right, the state had no business in enforcing such a cruel law!

Kinda pretty self explanatory don't you think, or should I elaborate more?


3) First of all I doubt you know what the word liberal means. Essentially it is anyone who advocates equality and freedom. We should all strive to be liberals. Secondly, switching to English is hardly a liberal ideal (lol?) and nor is it in anyway detrimental to society. English is by the way our national language, not arabic, sadly enough. You know you are confused when you think wearing jeans, speaking french and english is the country's biggest problem. Let's just ignore the Taliban, illiteracy, women oppression and lack of egalitarianism. Let's focus on people who speak English and wear jeans, oh and god forbid they do it at the same time. I can just see the havoc a jean wearing English speaking woman would create. /sarcasm

Condescending much? I am very well aware of what liberal means. Apparently you don't! because if it is just equality and freedom then even the conservatives make the same claims, however we know there is a difference between conservative and liberal ideologies. One claims to be progressive (which in fact depends on cultural context)and the other by it's very nature is very retrogressive. As for the rest, you again missed my point and completely tried to change the narrative to benefit your own argument!
I never said speaking a different language or wearing jeans is our country's biggest problem, My point was that the liberals in Pakistan believe using Arabic or anything perceived to be Arabic is an attack on our Culture and if that is the case then why isn't speaking english, wearing jeans and doing anything perceived western seen as detrimental to our culture? If you don't believe me, just see any number or articles on the tribune/dawn or on any Pakistani liberal news website/blog you will find the liberals making the same repetitive comments over and over again . Pakistan is turned "satirically" into Al Bakistan. In fact, they take an issue with Hijab and Abaya precisely because it is seen as a part of Arab culture and hence incompatible with ours!
Please read the following article.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/681106/al-bakistan/

The author follows the same narrative, starts with a convoluted history that can and has been manipulated over the years by whoever and then comes to the following moronic conclusion:

Are we yielding to the Arabised, extremist worldview, which will usher in more intolerance and increased possibility of cultural authoritarianism? If so, and I suspect this very much, we should cringe every time we see a vehicle with al-Bakistan on it. If al-Bakistan has arrived, how long will it be before we encounter ‘al-Bunjab’? In fact, I wonder why /p/ and /ch/ are not being abandoned altogether. We may lose our moon (chaand), but we will be better Arabs. Anyone for it?


If you are suggesting that the PPP, MQM and ANP are liberal, you have NO idea what liberalism entails, but it's really not surprising. All three of these parties violate the idea of liberalism at the most fundamental levels.

So that is your game plan? you disown all the evil the liberals do since it can't be liberalism yet you would not allow the same courtesy to people who disagree with you? Are you willing to absolve the Mullahs of every evil the taliban do? you will not in fact, the traditional line of thinking for a Pakistani liberal is If one Mullah makes an idiotic/misogynistic/xenophobic comment then entire clergy is to be blamed for it but that absolutely can't be case with liberals, right? oh how you forget that all the major liberal commentators from Afeem Zapata (NFP) to Marvi Hundred (kg) defend those three above mentioned parties and their despicable acts and how they whitewash their corruption, murder, gang warfare, kidnapping and million other things as long as they are Anti-Taliban because apparently that is all you need to do to be an upright citizen in their eyes! but I guess there is to be a different yard stick to measure the liberalism than it's counterparts. Case in point would be the recent Thar drought, you should've seen NFP's tweets on how he was trying to absolve PPP/Bhutto Zardari clan of any wrong doing!

My comments were in reference to Nostalgic, you've taken them wildly out of context.

My response was in reference to your following statement which in turn was a comment in reference to Nostalgic's statement. for reference this is what you said:
Nostalgic is right. Naming our kids as arabs would shows a confused national identity. We're not arabs.

If I am missing something then please do elaborate...
 
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Or could it be that people name their kids after Islamic Historical figures because they are these people are Honoured amongst muslims?...

So, you are saying that you are using those names because Saud, Faisal or Jasmin are the most Honoured among muslims? Muqadas mulk ky muqadas leader?
 
But there were no Sauds and Faisals and Tamims and Jasims and Hamads, were there? These came along only recently, as a result of the Saudi influence.


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While I get it that Al-Bakistan number plates are absurd, I think that you have to keep things in context. Names come and go. I knew one English family where all the kids had been named after characters from the Terminator (Rees, Connor, Sarah) whereas these days the trend is to go back to traditional names like James and Harry. In that sense I think the OP is right, the tendency to blow things out of proportion on here is sometimes counter-productive. Next time I'm in Pakistan and I have to order cous cous instead of fries from Al Makkahdonalds I'll give it more thought.
 
That is the most absurd thing I've ever read!....naming your kids with Arab names shows confused nationality? How about naming your kid Muhammad, Aysha, Hafsa, Khadeeja, Asad, Khalid, Usman, Ali, Hamza?.

I've noticed that as well , even worse is when the kids try pronouncing their names with tajweed rather than just usual asian dialect

Airmud becomes ahhhmad , for example
 
A British would not know a " hay " does exist in Urdu .


And it is not Usman in Arabic , it is Uthman .
 
I don't know why Pakistanis in the West try to act like Arabs like using words like wallah, habibi/habibti etc It is so annoying tbh. You have your own culture to follow.
 
I don't know why Pakistanis in the West try to act like Arabs like using words like wallah, habibi/habibti etc It is so annoying tbh. You have your own culture to follow.

I think Pakistanis see themselves as Muslims first. I mean the success of Md. Ali the American boxer or the wealth of the Arab nations or Dr.Oz who is of Turkish origin and a Muslim or some Muslim soccer player from an African country are all seen as a triumph for Pakistan itself.

I think this might be an admirable quality of embracing all Muslim cultures as one.
 
Different people get attracted to different cultures. I see no issue.

I personally am attracted to Arab cultures. I love their customs, foods, clothes etc.
 
Your Prophet is an Arab and followed Arab traditions and culture. So it is Sunnah to follow the same culture that the best example of mankind does.

All Muslims even in subcontinent have Arab names. Because it is Sunnah.
 
I don't know why Pakistanis in the West try to act like Arabs like using words like wallah, habibi/habibti etc It is so annoying tbh. You have your own culture to follow.

What is your problem with that?

They can do whatever they want. They don’t need your approval.
 
I don't know why Pakistanis in the West try to act like Arabs like using words like wallah, habibi/habibti etc It is so annoying tbh. You have your own culture to follow.

I have never seen this living in the US.

However do you realize how many words in Urdu come from Arabic via Persian? If someone wants to use words from Arabic why do you care?
 
Your Prophet is an Arab and followed Arab traditions and culture. So it is Sunnah to follow the same culture that the best example of mankind does.

All Muslims even in subcontinent have Arab names. Because it is Sunnah.

Why do Hindus in Bali, Tamil Nadu, Kerala have Sanskrit names? why do they have sanskrit in there prayers? They speak languages that are no where close to Sanskrit.
 
Your Prophet is an Arab and followed Arab traditions and culture. So it is Sunnah to follow the same culture that the best example of mankind does.

All Muslims even in subcontinent have Arab names. Because it is Sunnah.

no they don't, many are actually of Persian origins inc mine
 
and just as an aside the word SC Muslim use for prayer even now after all this supposed Arabisation is namaz which is a Persian pre-Islamic word
 
I think the problem for (some) non-Muslims, particularly those from the subcontinent, is the universalism of religions like Christianity and Islam. They have spread across the globe and have established themselves in the west. In fact, even Buddhism has made big inroads, whereas religions like say, Hinduism seem to be limited to Indian part of the subcontinent.
 
I think the problem for (some) non-Muslims, particularly those from the subcontinent, is the universalism of religions like Christianity and Islam. They have spread across the globe and have established themselves in the west. In fact, even Buddhism has made big inroads, whereas religions like say, Hinduism seem to be limited to Indian part of the subcontinent.

Very intriguing. Please elaborate.
 
no they don't, many are actually of Persian origins inc mine

For him and people with his thinking anything non Sanskrit origin, is Arab origin. And Not only are alot of the names Persian origin, alot of the Arabic origin names came via Persian itself.

The question should not be why subcontinent Muslims have Persian origin names, the question is why Hindus don't. If Muslims in Indonesia can have Sanskrit names because of Hindu influence there, why cant Hindus of subcontinent have Persian names because of the Persian influence in South Asia.
 
Why are people so concerned with whether we Muslims have Arab or Persian names or not? You want us to have your ridiculously weird Sanskrit names and we choose not to have barbarically stupid names.
 
Recently i went away to Pakistan to visit some family and i was astonished at how the Pakistan i loved and cherished has turned into such a backward mess of molvis and bearded fundos

It all started when i tried to book my ticket with British Airways, no , i was told, they said you have to book it with an arab airline now, British Airways no longer does Pakistan
Fine , i said, i will travel with the arabs but i will not eat their food or speak their language

Next , i had to get a visa, this was even more strenuous, due to mullahs getting training in pakistani camps, i now had to fork out nearly 5 times the amount and also had to take 2 passport photos!

On the plane there i was hounded by arab women in their red veils and most the announcements were in arab, i could not take this.
There were even bollywood films dubbed in arab for selection!


Finally after having to get another plane just so that i could spent time in arab lounge and be further indoctrinated by having to buy my Mcdonalds from a chinese women with an arab looking accent i finally landed in Islamabad.


The next 2 weeks were sheer hell as i was greeted with words like salam and people kept talking talk to me about politics with arab words like hukoom
I was even given the scare of my life when a skinny looking man with a great beard was hovering around the bin, i thought he was about to blow me up!


The worst thing was when i went to a major shopping centre in islamabad, indoors, with all the major outlets and decided to have a leak, the nearest place i could find was the wudhu khana for the mullahs and to my disgust there was no soap to wash my hands with

So BA chose not to operate in Pakistan and you went on Emirates/Etihad and were stunned that an Arab company had planes which were fitted for Arab people. ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING!

This is like me choosing Ryanair and being shocked it's not like that :)))
 
I think the problem for (some) non-Muslims, particularly those from the subcontinent, is the universalism of religions like Christianity and Islam. They have spread across the globe and have established themselves in the west. In fact, even Buddhism has made big inroads, whereas religions like say, Hinduism seem to be limited to Indian part of the subcontinent.

No what they believe is that a language needs to originate in a certain area otherwise its foreign. So even though Persian was the lingua franca for almost 1,000 years in the subcontinent its a foreign language.

Muslims are willing to add things from other cultures into there own, they don't really care about "foreign influence". That's why Indonesian Muslims have Sanskrit names, even though it originated in subcontinent. Same way subcontinent Muslims have Persian origin names.

And as far Arabic names go, people throughout the World give their children names from their cultural language and religious language. Hence why millions of Europeans, South Americans, Africans, etc have Hebrew origin names, because of Christianity. And Hindus in Bali have Sanskrit names.
 
Why are people so concerned with whether we Muslims have Arab or Persian names or not? You want us to have your ridiculously weird Sanskrit names and we choose not to have barbarically stupid names.

They think we are following a foreign culture, and are trying to help us find our "roots". They cant accept the idea that Muslim culture and Hindu culture of subcontinent, while having some similarities, has differences.

However there is Nothing barbaric about Sanskrit names. Indonesian Muslims have them. We subcontinent Muslims have Persian names because it was the official language in the subcontinent for almost 1,000 years.
 
They think we are following a foreign culture, and are trying to help us find our "roots". They cant accept the idea that Muslim culture and Hindu culture of subcontinent, while having some similarities, has differences.

However there is Nothing barbaric about Sanskrit names. Indonesian Muslims have them. We subcontinent Muslims have Persian names because it was the official language in the subcontinent for almost 1,000 years.


They should maybe look closer to home, I'm not a Bollywood follower, but seems to me most of the stars are very much following foreign trends, I don't see that much Indian culture there. Which is fine, I don't see anything wrong with adopting better culture, but why moan about Arabs or Persians when you are taking on foreign culture by the truckload yourselves?
 
Your Prophet is an Arab and followed Arab traditions and culture. So it is Sunnah to follow the same culture that the best example of mankind does.

All Muslims even in subcontinent have Arab names. Because it is Sunnah.

It could also be because the Arabic names appeal more to them than Bala, Murali, Radhe, Narendra, etc.
 
Thats because subconsciously the hindus perceive (to an extent rightly so) that everything that originated from Indian subcontinent is inferior. That includes the religions and the languages.
 
It could also be because the Arabic names appeal more to them than Bala, Murali, Radhe, Narendra, etc.

Its because the Muslim elite of subcontinent followed a Persianized culture. So the other Muslims followed it as well. And now its been in some areas of the subcontinent almost 1,000 years of following that culture, so those names like Narendra or Deepak would be very strange for us. Persian and Arabic names are part of our culture now and we dont want to give it up.
 
Can the moderators edit out "Arabization" from the title, this implies that the Arabs follow Taliban culture and that arabization and talibanization are the same thing.
 
They should maybe look closer to home, I'm not a Bollywood follower, but seems to me most of the stars are very much following foreign trends, I don't see that much Indian culture there. Which is fine, I don't see anything wrong with adopting better culture, but why moan about Arabs or Persians when you are taking on foreign culture by the truckload yourselves?

Bollywood Hindus are liberal.

Its the Hindutva supporters that have a problem with it. Basically what they like that's foreign is ok, so whether its western clothes, or the North Indain cuisine which was mostly created by Muslims is ok.

What they dont like Islam, Arabic/Persian names, Mughals, etc is not ok.

Thats why for them Taj Mahal is Tejo Mahalaya.
 
Just a general statement but its interesting that a lot of Pakistanis like the Indian liberal celebs and hate their own liberals. Same for Indians and their liking for Pakistani liberals. :)
 
Just a general statement but its interesting that a lot of Pakistanis like the Indian liberal celebs and hate their own liberals. Same for Indians and their liking for Pakistani liberals. :)

Two unholy alliances in subcontinent.

Liberal Muslims allied with Right wing Hindus.

Liberal Hindus allied with conservative Muslims.
 
Ordinary village and small town indians also have the tendency to imitate Westerners. I ve witnessed that many times.
 
It could also be because the Arabic names appeal more to them than Bala, Murali, Radhe, Narendra, etc.

What you said makes zero sense . Imagine a Hindu parent naming their kid Mohammad, I have yet to see one because the hindu parent felt Arabic name was more appealing to them... Names are based on religious following unless you are a free thinker..
 
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What you said makes zero sense . Imagine a Hindu parent naming their kid Mohammad, I have yet to see one because the hindu parent felt Arabic name was more appealing to them... Names are based on religious following unless you are a free thinker..

No they are based on religion and culture. Hence why subcontinent Muslims have names of Arabic and Persian origin, and why Indonesian Muslims have names of Arab and Sanskrit origin.

Same with Europeans have names from Hebrew and there own culture.

Most Hindus cant tell which name is Arab and which name is Persian, hence why they think that subcontinent Muslims have Arab names only.
 
No they are based on religion and culture. Hence why subcontinent Muslims have names of Arabic and Persian origin, and why Indonesian Muslims have names of Arab and Sanskrit origin.

Same with Europeans have names from Hebrew and there own culture.

Most Hindus cant tell which name is Arab and which name is Persian, hence why they think that subcontinent Muslims have Arab names only.

You make a valid point as Indonesians have
Combined Hindu/Muslim names for a few. However coming to people of the sub continent: the whole concept of a Muslim preferring a Muslim name over a Hindu name because the hindu name doesn't sound good to them makes zero sense, when Muslims name their children with names from the Muslim faith due to their religious identity. Can you imagine if a Muslim parent likes the name Ram Lakhan and names their child that :)), makes zero sense, due to religious identity.
 
Your Prophet is an Arab and followed Arab traditions and culture. So it is Sunnah to follow the same culture that the best example of mankind does.

All Muslims even in subcontinent have Arab names. Because it is Sunnah.

All Muslims? I love how you pose as some sort of expert on Islam and make extremely incorrect statements in such a confident way. A lot Pakistanis have Persian and Turkish origin names.

Where did you get the fact that Arab names are Sunnah? I know Quranic names are preferred by many Muslims but I have never heard anything about Arab names being Sunnah. You really need to check the sources you get your information from.
 
You make a valid point as Indonesians have
Combined Hindu/Muslim names for a few. However coming to people of the sub continent: the whole concept of a Muslim preferring a Muslim name over a Hindu name because the hindu name doesn't sound good to them makes zero sense, when Muslims name their children with names from the Muslim faith due to their religious identity. Can you imagine if a Muslim parent likes the name Ram Lakhan and names their child that :)), makes zero sense, due to religious identity.

Its not about not sounding good, its about tradition. And in the subcontinent Muslim tradition names are from Arabic and Persian origin.

The arabic names can be for religious reasons, however there is nothing Muslim about the names Kamran, or Shahrukh, or Shireen as they come from Persian. Persian was the official language for centuries in the subcontinent, and spoken by the Muslim elite, so it makes sense for Muslims to have Persian names in the subcontinent, same way Sanskrit was dominant in Indonesia so it makes sense for Indonesians to have Sanskrit names.


However its possible in the future subcontinent Muslims can also have Sanskrit names.

The name Kiran is from Sanskrit, and its common now among Muslims for females. I even have a cousin with that name. So maybe some other names will become popular as well. This takes a long time tho. It can take generations to make a name part of the culture, but once enough people have it, it is no longer viewed as strange to give that name.
 
All Muslims? I love how you pose as some sort of expert on Islam and make extremely incorrect statements in such a confident way. A lot Pakistanis have Persian and Turkish origin names.

Where did you get the fact that Arab names are Sunnah? I know Quranic names are preferred by many Muslims but I have never heard anything about Arab names being Sunnah. You really need to check the sources you get your information from.

Sunnah too, which is such a weird thing to call it :)))
 
That would be very difficult to do.

The bar is very, very, very low.

In fact that bar has become a twig.

Do yourself a favour then and remove the twig and look elsewhere for swapping petty insults. Mods would probably appreciate it as well.
 
Its not about not sounding good, its about tradition. And in the subcontinent Muslim tradition names are from Arabic and Persian origin.

The arabic names can be for religious reasons, however there is nothing Muslim about the names Kamran, or Shahrukh, or Shireen as they come from Persian. Persian was the official language for centuries in the subcontinent, and spoken by the Muslim elite, so it makes sense for Muslims to have Persian names in the subcontinent, same way Sanskrit was dominant in Indonesia so it makes sense for Indonesians to have Sanskrit names.


However its possible in the future subcontinent Muslims can also have Sanskrit names.

The name Kiran is from Sanskrit, and its common now among Muslims for females. I even have a cousin with that name. So maybe some other names will become popular as well. This takes a long time tho. It can take generations to make a name part of the culture, but once enough people have it, it is no longer viewed as strange to give that name.

That and Neha is another sanskrit name that isn't uncommon in Pakistan.
 
You make a valid point as Indonesians have
Combined Hindu/Muslim names for a few. However coming to people of the sub continent: the whole concept of a Muslim preferring a Muslim name over a Hindu name because the hindu name doesn't sound good to them makes zero sense, when Muslims name their children with names from the Muslim faith due to their religious identity. Can you imagine if a Muslim parent likes the name Ram Lakhan and names their child that :)), makes zero sense, due to religious identity.

Indonesians mix sanskrit names with muslim ones because indians have the same influence over indonesia that central asians/middle easterns had over the subcontinent. Indonesia literally translates to "indian island" even though it's nowhere near the indus river nor indonesians part of the indic race, they're austronesians.
 
All Muslims? I love how you pose as some sort of expert on Islam and make extremely incorrect statements in such a confident way. A lot Pakistanis have Persian and Turkish origin names.

Where did you get the fact that Arab names are Sunnah? I know Quranic names are preferred by many Muslims but I have never heard anything about Arab names being Sunnah. You really need to check the sources you get your information from.

What names does Prophet and Sahabas have? They had Arab names.

Muslims in subcontinent follow what prophet and Sahabas did including their names.
 
There is no Arabization in its true sense is going on in Pakistan. How many aunties do you know that watch Arabic soap operas? None.

The very first post in this thread is riddled with ignorance and some complex against Arab. The whole world is flying with Arab airlines. They got the money to fund it. There flights are of. Top quality and not even a redneck racist can deny that. That's no proof of Arabization.

Ironically the "Bollywood dubbed in Arabic" part shows that the Arabs are getting Indianized. Lol.

The perceived Arabic influence is due to Islam and has been there since Islam first entered the region. No major change has taken place. I have never come across anyone who would look down upon others for not having a "non-arabic" name. In fact there are quite a few "Punjabi muslim" name in my family and relatives. Like "Allah ditta", "ghulam rasool" or "shehr ali".

There isn't any major Talibanization going on either.

The Taliban fan boys had been around since the first time Taliban came into existence. It finds its roots in the "deobandi" sect which a major number of Taliban belong to. Not all deobandi are same and support the same people. However many old school deobandi scholars and hence their followers see Taliban as their own due to the same sect and some of the Taliban leaders had attended their madrassa. Just like anyother sect in the region the intra-sect solidarity is robust.

There is another group of Afghan Taliban fan boys but they are in reality Pak Army fan boys who see a success of Army and ISI in the success of Taliban.

There is an increase in Islamization and Islamic awareness though. Major part of the population is educated in contrast to 100 years ago and a large number of people are more intensely engaging with their religion. The society as a whole has become far more religiously aware than their forefathers might have ever been.
 
There is no Arabization in its true sense is going on in Pakistan. How many aunties do you know that watch Arabic soap operas? None.

The very first post in this thread is riddled with ignorance and some complex against Arab. The whole world is flying with Arab airlines. They got the money to fund it. There flights are of. Top quality and not even a redneck racist can deny that. That's no proof of Arabization.

Ironically the "Bollywood dubbed in Arabic" part shows that the Arabs are getting Indianized. Lol.

The perceived Arabic influence is due to Islam and has been there since Islam first entered the region. No major change has taken place. I have never come across anyone who would look down upon others for not having a "non-arabic" name. In fact there are quite a few "Punjabi muslim" name in my family and relatives. Like "Allah ditta", "ghulam rasool" or "shehr ali".

There isn't any major Talibanization going on either.

The Taliban fan boys had been around since the first time Taliban came into existence. It finds its roots in the "deobandi" sect which a major number of Taliban belong to. Not all deobandi are same and support the same people. However many old school deobandi scholars and hence their followers see Taliban as their own due to the same sect and some of the Taliban leaders had attended their madrassa. Just like anyother sect in the region the intra-sect solidarity is robust.

There is another group of Afghan Taliban fan boys but they are in reality Pak Army fan boys who see a success of Army and ISI in the success of Taliban.

There is an increase in Islamization and Islamic awareness though. Major part of the population is educated in contrast to 100 years ago and a large number of people are more intensely engaging with their religion. The society as a whole has become far more religiously aware than their forefathers might have ever been.

Would you call the jamia millia islamia a taliban institute?
Also zakir hussain and abul azad were they old school deobandis too
 
It's in human nature to mingle with each other and by default influence one another. Whether we like it or not. There is no pure culture exclusive for a certain nation/ethnicity and never has been. One group of people influenced the other and vice versa. This is how human civilizations evolved.

In ancient times you had the silk road and the trade which led to different group of people interact with each other. Even at that time a sort of globalization was taking place albeit at a slower rate because the rate of communication and information exchange was rather slow.

Those human groups who have been cut off and have isolated themselves from the rest of the human beings are not surprisingly also the one with weaker immune system, poor innovation rate and a lack of technological progress.

You can't stop the globalization. You can't stop the "Westernization" of Pakistan nor the "Islamization". Certain foreign cultural aspects will come together and melt into the local and existing culture. This is what has through out history led to the progress of humans. The major challenge for us is how we cope with the sudden increase in the pace of "foreign" influence due to the age of information.
 
Would you call the jamia millia islamia a taliban institute?
Also zakir hussain and abul azad were they old school deobandis too

I am not familiar with jamia millia islamia. The deobandi in India in general have a different stance towards jihadism altogether let alone Taliban.

I don't know what point you are trying to make. There is no talibanization of Pakistani society and the Taliban cheerleaders that can be found in the society have been addressed in my post you quoted.
 
I am not familiar with jamia millia islamia. The deobandi in India in general have a different stance towards jihadism altogether let alone Taliban.

I don't know what point you are trying to make. There is no talibanization of Pakistani society and the Taliban cheerleaders that can be found in the society have been addressed in my post you quoted.

There is an increase in Islamization and Islamic awareness though. Major part of the population is educated in contrast to 100 years ago and a large number of people are more intensely engaging with their religion. The society as a whole has become far more religiously aware than their forefathers might have ever been.


Have you ever read allama iqbal?
 
What names does Prophet and Sahabas have? They had Arab names.

Muslims in subcontinent follow what prophet and Sahabas did including their names.

Sure a lot do but your claim was all Muslims in SC have Arab names which is not true considering a significant amount have Persian or even Turkic origin names. Also your point about Arabic names being Sunnah is not correct as far as I know.
 
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