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The Wrestling Discussion Thread

shaz619 said:
What I will say on this is, yes Shawn was a bad guy, but was he always like that? I would say no. You look at some of the biggest politicians in wrestling and they were all toxic personalities, Shawn pre-97 was healthy and in a much better mental shape. Drug abuse made him spiral out of control, this guy was suicidal as well bro, we are lucky that Shawn found the lord and redeemed himself, Shawn feels so much guilt about his past and is genuinely sorry for everything. In-fact even Bret forgave him, Bret recognises that he never made it easy for Shawn when he was being forced to make way for the new shiny toy in town, Bret was very tough with Shawn in that regard well before their issues and expected to be treated like royalty despite the fact that the tide was changing, Shawn was a decent draw relative to the business position and this was part of the reason Bret had to make way, Bret also understood that H was ultimately the mastermind in the screw job, to this day, Bret doesn’t like H one bit, but he has a decent relationship with Shawn. Look at Hogan, among others they are another kettle of fish bro and have not changed their stripes one bit. Some of the myths from your list have been debunked but nobody can really not say that he wasn’t awful then, especially Michaels himself.
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Okay maybe I went too far comparing him to Hogan. I agree there. Hogan is probably the biggest $cumbag there is. And continues to be one to this day.

As for Shawn, I am really glad that he changed over the years and acknowledged his mistakes. Unlike alot of people who think this is all a work, I really do believe that he is a changed man now. That said, he doesn't get a free-pass for the damage he did. I have seen way too many shoot interviews of people he worked with or even just interacted with, whose lives he made a living hell. He legitimately ruined careers. It's not something that matters as much now because he has made amends and tried to change for the better. And while I do believe that he deserves a second chance, I feel that while discussing his legacy we must acknowledge the damage he did and the careers he ruined of people who did nothing to deserve that.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Speaking of Ari Emmanuel, have any of you guys seen the TV show Entourage?
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Have heard of that show many times over the last few years from numerous friends and acquaintances, you referring to the character Ari Gold I think it is? Lol maybe that’s from some other show.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Okay maybe I went too far comparing him to Hogan. I agree there. Hogan is probably the biggest $cumbag there is. And continues to be one to this day.

As for Shawn, I am really glad that he changed over the years and acknowledged his mistakes. Unlike alot of people who think this is all a work, I really do believe that he is a changed man now. That said, he doesn't get a free-pass for the damage he did. I have seen way too many shoot interviews of people he worked with or even just interacted with, whose lives he made a living hell. He legitimately ruined careers. It's not something that matters as much now because he has made amends and tried to change for the better. And while I do believe that he deserves a second chance, I feel that while discussing his legacy we must acknowledge the damage he did and the careers he ruined of people who did nothing to deserve that.
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We defo need to acknowledge what happened but what often gets lost in the shuffle were the things which triggered him, but you know with these shoots, for the most part you get one here and there, but all these guys have forgiven Shawn, and who’s careers did he ruin that would have been personified main-eventers ? You could have said the Rock but H had a lot to do with that one and cream rises to the top, one thing people overlook though is that Shawn was taken advantage of at his lowest by H and manipulated into doing his dirty work, when you’re at your weakest it can’t help that you have the devil on your shoulder.
 
Rana said:
In regards to his beef with Bret and the things he did, that wasn’t a one sided hate campaign from Shawn. They both equally instigated each other with snarky tricks. Both are equally as bad as each other. No one is right or wrong. I’m not sure how verified the GTFU thing at WM is but in a way, Bret really should leave the ring and spotlight when a guy is having his all time moment winning his first ever world title at such a grand stage. Then again, I don’t even know if this truly happened. Shawn said that the Sunny thing was because Bret and his guys were spreading rumours about his sexuality in the dressing room. This guy Shawn is impulsive and easily reactive. He won’t randomly do something like that if he didn’t feel aggrieved about something that really has irked him.

The Montreal screwjob was all Vince and Bret. Vince used Shawn to do the deed because he was the only guy enraged and mad enough in the locker room who was going to pull it off and get some back for himself. This is on Vince, and to some extent Bret who was playing these stupid games himself by not being clear on how he’s going to drop the belt and not take it with him to WCW. Vince is right, Bret screwed Bret. Although I love Bret Hart the wrestler and ring persona, but a deep dive in history will tell you that he wasn’t as simple and honest as he is being made out at the expense of a notorious Shawn.

As for the injuries and no showing to job. That’s all part of the business, especially in the 80s to all the way even up to now with superstars like Brock Lesnar on the roster. There is a history of Wrestling GOATs who have been shoddy when it comes to this stuff. Singling out Shawn for some of his questionable moves isn’t fair, considering the nature of the business. A lot of this was done when Vince was usually in a compromised state considering a lot of the guys who he had made megastars were easily being lured into the gravy train of the WCW, a company and promotion hell bent on ending the WWF and snapping up anyone and everyone that was sellable to wrestling audience. Did some of the top stars in WWF use this situation to their advantage by breaking booking ethics? Yes. Was Shawn one of them? Yes. Were there others? I’m sure there was. Was it right? No. Could it have been avoided in that scenario and atmosphere? Doesn’t seem like it.

I have read and heard shoot interviews of wrestlers who have alluded to Shawn’s questionable things in the past as you mentioned the Viscera and Jannetty stuff. A lot of it can be verified or unverified. He clearly wasn’t a guy who kept to his business and doesn’t come across as honourable as you would say Undertaker was. We get that, but then again this is a really average guy who became a menace in order to survive. This is what survivalist mentality does. You either become the hunter or become the hunted. Shawn learned that very early in his career as I said with the Marty Jannetty and him being laid off situation. What exactly was that? It was some wrestlers or bookers who found it very easy to convince the company that these two nobodies are a waste of time. Just like that, there dream came to an end. A strong reality check, wake up call. The next time Shawn was in the business, he was always looking over his back! Once you become that paranoid menace, there is no stopping you from doing anything and everything to keep you safe.
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That’s absolutely not true. Bret Hart never went on TV and accused Shawn Michaels of having an affair — because Bret wasn’t an unprofessional pr*ck like Shawn. There was nothing equal about their behavior. One man was a consummate professional who tried to do business the right way, while the other was an arrogant, unprofessional man-child who constantly stirred the pot backstage.

The only time Bret could be accused of unprofessionalism was after he was double-crossed on a live PPV — and frankly, you can’t blame him for how he reacted. Vince McMahon broke a sacred trust. He told Bret one thing and then did another thing behind his back, with the help of Shawn and Earl Hebner. And let’s be clear: Bret had made it known that he was willing to drop the title — just not to Shawn in Montreal. He was even open to doing it on RAW the next night. You may not agree with that stance, but at least he was upfront and honest about it. Vince, on the other hand, took the coward's route and Shawn went along with him.

Shawn Michaels in the '90s was the textbook definition of a coward — someone who would manipulate and backstab behind the scenes, but didn’t have the guts to handle confrontation like a man. I'm sure you have heard the story of how he got his a$$ kicked by a couple of marines. That's who Shawn was. A person whose backstage/in-ring persona never matched his real-life toughness.

Bret didn’t want to leave WWE. He had just signed a long-term deal with Vince — but when Vince told him he could no longer honor that contract due to financial constraints, Bret was left with no choice. Eric Bischoff offered him a deal at WCW that was simply too good to pass up, financially. But he was still willing to do business the right way on the way out. Bret would have never taken and buried the WWF title to WCW because that's not the person that he was, or how he was raised.

I don't at all buy this justification that Shawn had to become a hunter or become hunted. Yes, top guys looked out for themselves. Even Austin used his influence. But no one except maybe Hogan did the damage that Shawn did. He made life miserable for countless others. There are too many shoot interviews, too many comments from fellow wrestlers, confirming that he buried people, blocked pushes, and acted selfishly to a staggering degree.

I don't at all buy this justification that Shawn had to become a hunter or become hunted. I get looking out for yourself and throwing your influence around, every top guy did that. Even Austin. But that didn't mean he had to ruin people's careers and making their lives a living hell. There are far too many shoot interviews of people he worked with or even interacted with that makes this evident. I'm glad he has changed for the better now and for sure he deserves a second chance, but when discussing his legacy we cannot forget the person he was and the damage he caused.
 
Suleiman said:
Have heard of that show many times over the last few years from numerous friends and acquaintances, you referring to the character Ari Gold I think it is? Lol maybe that’s from some other show.
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Yes. It's actually a pretty funny and entertaining show about Hollywood, based off the life of Mark Wahlberg. It used to feature regular storylines involving real actors/directors playing themselves. And Jeremy Piven who plays his agent Ari Gold on the show is said to be based of Ari Emmanuel who used to be a big-time Hollywood agent before he became the CEO of Endeavor and TKO.
 
shaz619 said:
We defo need to acknowledge what happened but what often gets lost in the shuffle were the things which triggered him, but you know with these shoots, for the most part you get one here and there, but all these guys have forgiven Shawn, and who’s careers did he ruin that would have been personified main-eventers ? You could have said the Rock but H had a lot to do with that one and cream rises to the top, one thing people overlook though is that Shawn was taken advantage of at his lowest by H and manipulated into doing his dirty work, when you’re at your weakest it can’t help that you have the devil on your shoulder.
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Thing is Shawn had started becoming unhinged long before H came into the picture. I'm sure H was complicit in alot of it like Montreal, but at the end of the day, he should be accountable for his own actions. And I'm glad he does take responsibility for everything he did during the 90s. H's real influence in the company after when Shawn was out of the picture because of his injury.
 
shaz619 said:
That would be an exciting way to introduce the third member, some people are suggesting it could be Theory but am not getting my hopes up, haha that helmet would kill it, I”ll do you one better, he should show up with a star trooper helmet :yk3
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Heyman has a good eye for talent so I'm sure whoever it is, it will be someone who deserves to be there. Provided no one meddles with Heyman's ideas.

But that's a good shout. It could completely revitalize Theory. And he has that history with Rollins too.
 
shaz619 said:
Taker mentioned this was not true, he has no reason to lie, and assuming it was, Shawn never went into business for himself, despite extreme lows in the late 90’s, wrestling exorcised his demons temporarily and he delivered on that front as @Rana was alluding to. I have magazines from the late 90’s prior to his second run which said that many experts regarded Michaels as the best to ever to do it up until his retirement, that’s just nuts. And speaking of WM 14, his performance with a broken back was inhuman, it was so unspeakable that Mike Tyson himself could not comprehend it and kept emphasising how tough HBK was, he went in great detail on that episode which Taker made an appearance on I think, Shawn was a gift to wrestling beyond the backstage stuff and he always remained true to the fans through thick and thin, he really is the GOAT

Come on ya”ll am trying to get you to jump on the H hate train, but now my GOAT is being dragged through the mud, blasphemy! Man the way H manipulated Shawn though, always at the right place at the right time….friggin snake, get him Rocky boy! get that bald fraud!
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I'm not going to take anything away from his ability in the ring. There will never be another Shawn Michaels. It's as simple as that. I doubt anyone could have returned from an injury like that and given another run like that. Speaking of which, from an in-ring standpoint, do you like 90s Shawn more or post-2002 Shawn more?
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Theory or Carmelo would be great for that role.
Seth can't cut a good promo to save his life unless it's about Shield. It's good that now Heyman will do that job for him.
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Carmelo is another guy where I just don't see it. Granted, I didn't follow his run in NXT, but he's way too small, even for a smaller guy. And his offense is that of a cruiserweight. Decent personality but not really lighting the world on fire there either. He's a guy who brings value to the roster but not someone I see ever being a main-eventer.
 
shaz619 said:
He will get a great check and who don’t want to see AJ Styles vs Ospreay @ Wembley, that’s the stadium sell out match. And I don’t watch AEW anymore but anything is better than jobbing to Logan Paul. Heck AJ vs MJF; the match we didn’t know we needed to see. AJ vs Bryan, AJ vs Joe etc so many great match-ups to be made. On the flip side it’s not amazing for the legacy but WWE will eventually induct him in the HOF….
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I agree completely. AEW is AEW, but AJ would be treated like royalty over there. The influence he’s had on the current generation of wrestlers is massive. Even someone like Ospreay talks about how AJ was his biggest inspiration when he was coming up in the business. You wouldn't even have the Young Bucks sabotaging him because even they used to be friends with him in New Japan. And say what you will about Tony, but him being a massive mark also means he has a lot of respect for certain guys and is mindful of how they were booked and treated in the past. For example, I would say that he has booked Samoa Joe better than he was ever booked in WWE and even NXT. Plus, as JC says sooner or later even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

I don’t think anyone can realistically say AJ would be treated any worse than how he’s been booked in WWE over the past few years. And like you pointed out, the number of dream matches he could have in AEW is insane — MJF, Ospreay, Joe, Omega, Takeshita, Swerve, Kyle Fletcher. Honestly, when I think back to one of Moxley’s best matches in WWE, it was during his feud with AJ.
 
Top 5 most exciting male rising-stars in wrestling right now (in my opinion)

  1. Jacob Fatu
  2. Ricky Starks
  3. Konosuke Takeshita
  4. Bron Breakker
  5. Kyle Fletcher

Fatu checks all the boxes and simply has it all. The look, the presence, the crazy and completely unique promos, the unreal level of athleticism. He is a bonafide main-eventer and I feel his rise to the top will also be the most meteoric.

As far as Ricky is concerned, me and @shaz619 have already gone on and on about how great he is. He has limitless charisma and personality, and is an incredibly talented and well-rounded performer. Now that he is finally in a company where he has a future, I have alot of hope for him.

Konosuke Takeshita has the potential to be the greatest ever Japanese star in North America. And once he gets to WWE, I am certain that he will. He's 29 but an absolutely incredible talent in the ring who has all the attributes to be a main-eventer. His speed and quickness and the ring and the way he moves (for someone as tall) reminds me alot of The Undertaker. He even does Undertaker's jumping close-line. If he gets to WWE and is put with the right manager I have no doubt that he will reach incredible heights.

Bron is another one who needs no explanation. We've all seen what he can do. The guy is simply a beast. Bron Breakker v Jacob Fatu is going to be a massive WrestleMania main-event one day, not too far from now.

Kyle Fletcher is someone you guys may not be as aware of, but I haven't seen anyone in recent years improve as rapidly as he did. He went from a pipsqueak-looking tag team wrestler to someone who looks like he could stand across the ring from any main-eventer in the business in the space of a couple of years. But the most impressive thing has been how rapidly he has improved in the ring. Another guy who is 6'3, 6'4 and moves in the ring like lightening. His promos kinda suck but that's precisely why he also needs to get to WWE and learn to be a main-eventer.

What's really impressive about Takeshita and Fletcher though is that they are already very advanced for their age from an in-ring standpoint. When they get to WWE, it will simply be about getting rid of the bad habits they learned in AEW. But if I were WWE, I would do everything within my power to sign these two guys.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Thing is Shawn had started becoming unhinged long before H came into the picture. I'm sure H was complicit in alot of it like Montreal, but at the end of the day, he should be accountable for his own actions. And I'm glad he does take responsibility for everything he did during the 90s. H's real influence in the company after when Shawn was out of the picture because of his injury.
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It’s no coincidence that the height of Shawn’s problems manifested as his ‘friendship’ with H reached its peak. What did H really do for Shawn as his mate, he benefited most from Shawn being out the picture in the late 90’s really. Imagine you were my best mate having issues with drug abuse, what kind of mate would I be, to allow you to go down that dark tunnel again and again, I literally watch you put yourself through all that; I would be complicit in the demise of RedwoodOriginal, but why should I really give two hoots about you when I am about to get your big bag of gold :yk If Bret hates H more then Shawn, there must be a good reason for it, Bret’s entire family are religious H haters, I wish I had a family like that :yk3
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
That’s absolutely not true. Bret Hart never went on TV and accused Shawn Michaels of having an affair — because Bret wasn’t an unprofessional pr*ck like Shawn. There was nothing equal about their behavior. One man was a consummate professional who tried to do business the right way, while the other was an arrogant, unprofessional man-child who constantly stirred the pot backstage.

The only time Bret could be accused of unprofessionalism was after he was double-crossed on a live PPV — and frankly, you can’t blame him for how he reacted. Vince McMahon broke a sacred trust. He told Bret one thing and then did another thing behind his back, with the help of Shawn and Earl Hebner. And let’s be clear: Bret had made it known that he was willing to drop the title — just not to Shawn in Montreal. He was even open to doing it on RAW the next night. You may not agree with that stance, but at least he was upfront and honest about it. Vince, on the other hand, took the coward's route and Shawn went along with him.

Shawn Michaels in the '90s was the textbook definition of a coward — someone who would manipulate and backstab behind the scenes, but didn’t have the guts to handle confrontation like a man. I'm sure you have heard the story of how he got his a$$ kicked by a couple of marines. That's who Shawn was. A person whose backstage/in-ring persona never matched his real-life toughness.

Bret didn’t want to leave WWE. He had just signed a long-term deal with Vince — but when Vince told him he could no longer honor that contract due to financial constraints, Bret was left with no choice. Eric Bischoff offered him a deal at WCW that was simply too good to pass up, financially. But he was still willing to do business the right way on the way out. Bret would have never taken and buried the WWF title to WCW because that's not the person that he was, or how he was raised.

I don't at all buy this justification that Shawn had to become a hunter or become hunted. Yes, top guys looked out for themselves. Even Austin used his influence. But no one except maybe Hogan did the damage that Shawn did. He made life miserable for countless others. There are too many shoot interviews, too many comments from fellow wrestlers, confirming that he buried people, blocked pushes, and acted selfishly to a staggering degree.

I don't at all buy this justification that Shawn had to become a hunter or become hunted. I get looking out for yourself and throwing your influence around, every top guy did that. Even Austin. But that didn't mean he had to ruin people's careers and making their lives a living hell. There are far too many shoot interviews of people he worked with or even interacted with that makes this evident. I'm glad he has changed for the better now and for sure he deserves a second chance, but when discussing his legacy we cannot forget the person he was and the damage he caused.
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You know on that rivalry DVD which btw I think was incredible and a shame they did not replicate it for other wrestlers, am pretty sure Bret admitted to being responsible for initiating the toxic relationship with Shawn due to how bitter he was about how his time at the top of the card was starting to come to an end, Bret still had a lot to offer but it was Shawn’s time and he couldn’t take how good he was and how popular Shawn was. As much as I love Bret, he was a bit of a ***** to Shawn as a senior vet, I really don’t think it was a battle between good vs evil, both are equally accountable for the deterioration of their relationship.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I'm not going to take anything away from his ability in the ring. There will never be another Shawn Michaels. It's as simple as that. I doubt anyone could have returned from an injury like that and given another run like that. Speaking of which, from an in-ring standpoint, do you like 90s Shawn more or post-2002 Shawn more?
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It’s very close and it’s crazy to say that he was even better for me past his prime in the 2000’s, that just cemented his greatness for me, it’s like when Ali came back after being punished for his stance in the Vietnam war, Ali beat prime Foreman past his peak and in a similar vein, Shawn had the greatest match of all time against prime Kurt Angle. It’s a tough one because 90’s wrestling had its unique audience and then wrestling evolved in the early 2000’s and a tad more psychological ? Is it fair to say that ? Shawn had this uncanny ability to adapt, the best example of that was at In Your House against Mankind, yeah he’s a good spot guy, but can he fight ? My god I get goosebumps thinking about it, that match was on the HBK Vault DVD, I am doing the Rock forearm thing right now bro. What about you, which run did you prefer? You know what I miss about the Network, we could have relived every moment of Shawn’s pre 2000’s run, it’s not possible now, hindsight is funny but the network at 9.99 was a generous offer from Vince and he never put prices up even once over here…
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Carmelo is another guy where I just don't see it. Granted, I didn't follow his run in NXT, but he's way too small, even for a smaller guy. And his offense is that of a cruiserweight. Decent personality but not really lighting the world on fire there either. He's a guy who brings value to the roster but not someone I see ever being a main-eventer.
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I completely agree with your assessment and he is the perfect example of the difference between HBK & H’s booking, Carmelo appeared more like a star in NXT while H is using him like a jobber and taken away his aura completely, you book talent like this then am afraid your assessment will be poignant among the fanbase in general
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I agree completely. AEW is AEW, but AJ would be treated like royalty over there. The influence he’s had on the current generation of wrestlers is massive. Even someone like Ospreay talks about how AJ was his biggest inspiration when he was coming up in the business. You wouldn't even have the Young Bucks sabotaging him because even they used to be friends with him in New Japan. And say what you will about Tony, but him being a massive mark also means he has a lot of respect for certain guys and is mindful of how they were booked and treated in the past. For example, I would say that he has booked Samoa Joe better than he was ever booked in WWE and even NXT. Plus, as JC says sooner or later even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

I don’t think anyone can realistically say AJ would be treated any worse than how he’s been booked in WWE over the past few years. And like you pointed out, the number of dream matches he could have in AEW is insane — MJF, Ospreay, Joe, Omega, Takeshita, Swerve, Kyle Fletcher. Honestly, when I think back to one of Moxley’s best matches in WWE, it was during his feud with AJ.
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You reckon? I loved Joe’s run in NXT so much, but part of it was due to how badly he was treated in TNA that I really felt as though he might be past it, that match against Balor in London was special, I finally got the real Joe back after many years. AEW have booked him well though I have not followed him much post CM Punk era, the match they had though is in my top 3 in AEW.

Yes, for 90% of guys I would say AEW is not a good move, but AJ is genuinely worse off under WWE due to insecure H. I’d like to see AJ work with the tribal chief, CM Punk & heel Cena one more time and that’s it really. But they are treating him like some low level mid carder at the moment. In AEW he will have a reduced schedule, more money and get to work some stadium events; at the back end of your career it’s a good gig really. AJ just has a really bad taste in his mouth from his prior stint in TNA but TK wont disrespect him like that and that locker room loves him, in many ways he best represents what AEW should mean and were trying to do, unfortunately only one AJ Styles is born every generation……..
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Top 5 most exciting male rising-stars in wrestling right now (in my opinion)

  1. Jacob Fatu
  2. Ricky Starks
  3. Konosuke Takeshita
  4. Bron Breakker
  5. Kyle Fletcher

Fatu checks all the boxes and simply has it all. The look, the presence, the crazy and completely unique promos, the unreal level of athleticism. He is a bonafide main-eventer and I feel his rise to the top will also be the most meteoric.

As far as Ricky is concerned, me and @shaz619 have already gone on and on about how great he is. He has limitless charisma and personality, and is an incredibly talented and well-rounded performer. Now that he is finally in a company where he has a future, I have alot of hope for him.

Konosuke Takeshita has the potential to be the greatest ever Japanese star in North America. And once he gets to WWE, I am certain that he will. He's 29 but an absolutely incredible talent in the ring who has all the attributes to be a main-eventer. His speed and quickness and the ring and the way he moves (for someone as tall) reminds me alot of The Undertaker. He even does Undertaker's jumping close-line. If he gets to WWE and is put with the right manager I have no doubt that he will reach incredible heights.

Bron is another one who needs no explanation. We've all seen what he can do. The guy is simply a beast. Bron Breakker v Jacob Fatu is going to be a massive WrestleMania main-event one day, not too far from now.

Kyle Fletcher is someone you guys may not be as aware of, but I haven't seen anyone in recent years improve as rapidly as he did. He went from a pipsqueak-looking tag team wrestler to someone who looks like he could stand across the ring from any main-eventer in the business in the space of a couple of years. But the most impressive thing has been how rapidly he has improved in the ring. Another guy who is 6'3, 6'4 and moves in the ring like lightening. His promos kinda suck but that's precisely why he also needs to get to WWE and learn to be a main-eventer.

What's really impressive about Takeshita and Fletcher though is that they are already very advanced for their age from an in-ring standpoint. When they get to WWE, it will simply be about getting rid of the bad habits they learned in AEW. But if I were WWE, I would do everything within my power to sign these two guys.
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I would also add Oba Femi, Trick Williams & Evans to the list as well, they all have immense potential as all round performers.

Have you seen much of ‘Lexis King’ lately? His character work is spot on though I’ve not seen too much of him in NXT compared to AEW, he has a big match next week against Ricky Saints so am going to keep an eye on that.

I like Jacob Fatu I really do, and this is not a criticism of him and maybe there are more tools in the box, but don’t you think that stylistically he doesn’t do anything we haven’t seen before, but that’s a criticism of WWE at times. I watched the product with a casual recently who complained that they all wrestle the same, you get some interesting insights when you watch with a casual; and you know what, it’s true, outside Gunther and someone like CM Punk who is creative, majority of the guys work the same way, the key to success is having the strong foundation of a solid character and then once you figure out the WWE style you can pretty much work on auto-pilot. There are like three or four people who do the same moonsault finisher as a more narrow example of the general point I am trying to make.
 
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