This is America: No I don't eat pork, but yes I'd love a glass (or five) of wine

[leonidas_alexandar]

This is America: No I don't eat pork, but yes I'd love a glass (or five) of wine. Not all Muslims practice Islam the same
Rasha Ali
USA TODAY


Me: "Can I get that with no bacon, please?"

Unnamed person: "You don't like bacon?"

Me: "I don't eat pork."

UP: "You're Muslim?"

Me: "Yup!"

UP: "... but we just finished having drinks ... you took shots ..."

Hello again, it's your girl Rasha. I'm a Black Muslim woman and the above was a variation of the many conversations I've had about my lack of pork consumption due to my religious beliefs, despite enjoying the occasional sangria or whisky shot (it depends on the day, OK?).

Most everyone I meet is surprised to learn I'm Muslim for multiple reasons: I don't wear a hijab. I drink. I could be found in the club pre-pandemic poorly twerking what my mother did not give me.

But I'm also not an exception to the "rule."

And as Ramadan begins, I'm here to remind you that Muslims are not a monolith. And neither is the way we practice.

Are you fasting?

Ramadan is the holiest month in Islam and this year it will span from April 13 to May 12 (maybe, there's a whole moon sighting thing that goes down so the dates could vary). During Ramadan, Muslims are supposed to abstain from food, drink and sexual activity from sunrise to sunset. The ninth month of the Islamic calendar is supposed to be a time of spiritual reflection and is dedicated to worship, charity and community.

And though most if not many Muslims are partaking in Ramadan, there are a few who may choose to forego fasting altogether or will be participating in a different way.

That's because Muslims are, say it with me everyone, not a monolith!

Some Muslims may very well do Ramadan the traditional way where they don't eat and drink anything (no, not even water) from sun up to sundown, but others may choose to give up certain things like social media or behavior deemed "sinful" for the month.

Others may decide to just drink water throughout the day, but not eat. A few may have a glass of wine as they break their fast. There are even Muslims who may be extra religious during the month, praying the obligatory five prayers a day, wearing a hijab and giving up alcohol.

In short: If you see me with a mouthful of French toast and a glass of bubbly at brunch this upcoming month, keep it moving.

Muslims on TV

Growing up most, if not all of the Muslims I saw on TV or in movies were portrayed to be an "exotic" love interest at best and a terrorist at worst.

At that point, I was just excited I didn't have to read the subtitles when an Arab Muslim father was arguing in Arabic with his "rebellious" daughter about dating an American white boy and how she's a disgrace to the family. Hey, some representation was better than none right?

But as time went on, Muslims on screen got more and more cringeworthy and frankly annoying to watch.

So when Ramy Youssef's "Ramy" premiered on Hulu in 2019 and followed the story of an Egyptian-American millennial who was struggling with his religion, I was intrigued. Yes, it was still about an Arab family, but they touched on taboo-ish topics like sex, drugs and dating outside the religion.

But even "Ramy," though entertaining, fell flat with its portrayal of Muslims – especially Muslim women. Ramy's sister Dena was characterized as rebellious. A Muslim woman Ramy went on a date with turned the titular character off because she was too sexually aggressive and Ramy wasn't expecting a Muslim woman to be so sexually liberated. In the second season, we're introduced to Ramy's new love interest: a Black Muslim woman named Zainab (Dear Allah finally, yes!).

And though I'm thankful Zainab's character allowed the series to spotlight racism within Islam, even her portrayal was a bit stereotypical.

We want to see Muslim women in all their glory living their best lives on TV. Show me the women having a drink with her parents. Show me the one who makes her boyfriend lie about his religion so her parents will accept him. Show me the one who makes Hennessy sangrias and hosts taco nights for her friends.

Just show me authentic Muslim women. Not what you think Muslim women are like.

Muslim women are not "rebelling" for living


There are many Muslim women who have tattoos, eat pork, marry non-Muslims, have sex, wear bikinis and get drunk at 11 a.m. on a Tuesday. Most of which are behaviors that are considered haram (forbidden/sinful). And while there's a good portion of Muslims who don't abide by what's perceived as "normal Islamic behavior," oftentimes media portrayal of Muslims leads us to believe there's only one way to be Muslim: Arab, hijabi, oppressed, judgmental, etc.

If you see a Muslim woman wearing a mini dress and downing shots at the bar while loudly recounting a story filled with expletives, please remember she's not "rebellious." She is just a woman who is living her best life and who happens to be Muslim. And just because she doesn't fit neatly into the category of what a Muslim is supposed to look and act like, does not mean she's any less of a Muslim.

As of 2017, there are at least 3.45 million Muslims in the United States and in about 20 years Islam will replace Judaism as the second-largest religion in the country after Christianity, according to the Pew Research Center.

There's absolutely no way all 3.45 million practice the same way.



P.S. Ramadan Mubarak!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...not-all-muslims-practice-same-way/7066448002/

 

[leonidas_alexandar]

The part about Muslim representation on American TV especially the women - that is on point.

 

[Bigboii]

Good piece, I liked it and to some extent captures the reality of muslims in United States...

 

[Giannis]

Good piece, I liked it and to some extent captures the reality of muslims in United States...

Tbf that's Muslims everywhere, whether in Europe, the middle east, south asia or africa - we're not a monolith, we're a group of a billion+ people each with our individualities. There's a wide spectrum of Muslims.

 

[guna]

Sure. Everyone can make up their own rules, do all kinds of unislamic things and still call themselves a Muslim.

 

[golagunda]

Maybe I am being too cynical here but all I get from the article is that the media should focus more on non-practicing Muslims who have adopted a generic American identity. While telling us not to treat Muslims as a monolith the article also tells us to focus on 'authentic' American Muslim women "who have tattoos, eat pork, marry non-Muslims, have sex, wear bikinis and get drunk at 11 a.m. on a Tuesday." I am not an American but during my limited stay in the US as a student, that group is a minority rather than a representation of a typical american muslim family.

 

[guna]

Tbf that's Muslims everywhere, whether in Europe, the middle east, south asia or africa - we're not a monolith, we're a group of a billion+ people each with our individualities. There's a wide spectrum of Muslims.

I pray to Jesus and Ganesh and Buddha. I can also claim to be a Muslim then.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Maybe I am being too cynical here but all I get from the article is that the media should focus more on non-practicing Muslims who have adopted a generic American identity. While telling us not to treat Muslims as a monolith the article also tells us to focus on 'authentic' American Muslim women "who have tattoos, eat pork, marry non-Muslims, have sex, wear bikinis and get drunk at 11 a.m. on a Tuesday." I am not an American but during my limited stay in the US as a student, that group is a minority rather than a representation of a typical american muslim family.

There's puritan, Cavalier , Roundhead but some things contravene Islam. We can't be angels but the core beliefs exist and as with other religions, once the majority become lax and the religious heritage thins, it become atheism. Believe. Or don't. Don't conflate.

 

[Rafa]

Breaking fast with a Wine

 

[Bigboii]

Whether we like it or not (and we shouldn't like it tbh)

Islam in western countries is as much an "identity" as it is a religion for humanity, dare I say that it's more identity than even a religion if analyze the muslim experience in the west (or the US I don't know about other places but I assuming it's the same)

This is what this article is pointing towards

The "identity" of a Muslim/group of people you identify as not necessarily believe

It's a little similar to the hindu atheist phenomenon that we as muslims find so weird cause for us it's too foreign an idea

Religion as a mere "identity"

But this is unfortunately what I feel is happening with islam in the west

 

[Giannis]

I pray to Jesus and Ganesh and Buddha. I can also claim to be a Muslim then.

I know you're trying to be funny but maybe try harder. Also you completely miss the point of the article above; we're not talking about theology - we're talking practices and personal vices, there are Muslims that sin in all of kinds of ways but they still believe in the kalima that there is no God but Allah and that Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger; you can be an imperfect Muslim and sin such as drink, lie, steal, fornicate etc but you may still be forgiven by Allah however Bid's which is what you're doing is the biggest sin in Islam - Bid'ah is the concept believing in a God and praying to an entity other than Allah, if you violate the first Kalma then you're not Muslim, on the other hand committing other sins doesn't make you a non-Muslim

 

[Itachi]

I know you're trying to be funny but maybe try harder. Also you completely miss the point of the article above; we're not talking about theology - we're talking practices and personal vices, there are Muslims that sin in all of kinds of ways but they still believe in the kalima that there is no God but Allah and that Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger; you can be an imperfect Muslim and sin such as drink, lie, steal, fornicate etc but you may still be forgiven by Allah however Bid's which is what you're doing is the biggest sin in Islam - Bid'ah is the concept believing in a God and praying to an entity other than Allah, if you violate the first Kalma then you're not Muslim, on the other hand committing other sins doesn't make you a non-Muslim

This is what I'll never understand. The whole concept of unforgivable sin portrays God as insecure, arrogant and narcissist which I am sure He isn't (if does exist) or won't be.

Just put those same criteria to any other entity and then that entity will be accused of arrogance, narcissism.

If you believe in God (regardless of any religion), He should be free from human emotions of jealousy, anger, arrogance. But above doesn't portray that.

Killing another man for the sake of pleasure may be forgivable while just denouncing God makes it unforgiven. Doesn't portray a nice picture to be honest.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Some people enjoy "modernizing" Muslims. Unless its harming you in some way, their not consuming alcohol should not give you sleepless nights.

 

[Giannis]

This is what I'll never understand. The whole concept of unforgivable sin portrays God as insecure, arrogant and narcissist which I am sure He isn't (if does exist) or won't be.

Just put those same criteria to any other entity and then that entity will be accused of arrogance, narcissism.

If you believe in God (regardless of any religion), He should be free from human emotions of jealousy, anger, arrogance. But above doesn't portray that.

Killing another man for the sake of pleasure may be forgivable while just denouncing God makes it unforgiven. Doesn't portray a nice picture to be honest.

God isn't what you want Him to be. Your idea of the Creator and who He actually is are two different things, a lot of atheists have a very idealistic idea of how God should be.

 

[Itachi]

God isn't what you want Him to be. Your idea of the Creator and who He actually is are two different things, a lot of atheists have a very idealistic idea of how God should be.

Are you implying God isn't idealistic and isn't perfect?

 

[Giannis]

Are you implying God isn't idealistic and isn't perfect?

He's perfect but your definition of idealistic or at least the definition of Atheists doesn't have to be reality.

 

[Itachi]

He's perfect but your definition of idealistic or at least the definition of Atheists doesn't have to be reality.

Points taken. Then what's this concept of "different idealistic" we are talking about here?

What are the criterion to be deemed idealistic on that regards?

 

[guna]

I know you're trying to be funny but maybe try harder. Also you completely miss the point of the article above; we're not talking about theology - we're talking practices and personal vices, there are Muslims that sin in all of kinds of ways but they still believe in the kalima that there is no God but Allah and that Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger; you can be an imperfect Muslim and sin such as drink, lie, steal, fornicate etc but you may still be forgiven by Allah however Bid's which is what you're doing is the biggest sin in Islam - Bid'ah is the concept believing in a God and praying to an entity other than Allah, if you violate the first Kalma then you're not Muslim, on the other hand committing other sins doesn't make you a non-Muslim

Here you go. You can do all kinds of debauchary and can be forgiven as long as you recite kalima. I guess there is no point in following rules.

 

[Bigboii]

Here you go. You can do all kinds of debauchary and can be forgiven as long as you recite kalima. I guess there is no point in following rules.

This is a similar argument to that of atheism=no morality

 

[guna]

This is a similar argument to that of atheism=no morality

Not even close. Morals are not dictated by religion alone. Society and its norms can also dictate morals and ethics.

If you do not follow any rules set by your religion, then you are out of it. Plain and simple. Islam is not like Hinduism where everything and anything is accepted.

Try asking a Moulvi if you are still considered a Muslim after doing all the things mentioned in OP.

 

[El Generico]

A few may have a glass of wine as they break their fast i

Lol what? Does anyone actually do that?

 

[Giannis]

Here you go. You can do all kinds of debauchary and can be forgiven as long as you recite kalima. I guess there is no point in following rules.

That's how the Abrahamic God is, even in Christianity as long as you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior then you're saved regardless of whatever sins you commit. Acknowledging the universe as the Lord's sovereign is most important, that's the ticket to heaven.

 

[Bigboii]

Not even close. Morals are not dictated by religion alone. Society and its norms can also dictate morals and ethics.

If you do not follow any rules set by your religion, then you are out of it. Plain and simple. Islam is not like Hinduism where everything and anything is accepted.

Try asking a Moulvi if you are still considered a Muslim after doing all the things mentioned in OP.

As long as you believe in one god you're always a Muslim

Are you a good muslim? No
Are your chances of going to hell higher than a practicing muslims? Probably yeas

But you're still a Muslim cause you believe in the existence of one god and as long as you repent you're clean

You can disagree with this rule or not frankly I don't care

But I can bring even the most conservative of scholors and they'll still call tham Muslim as long as they believe in one god and his massenger PBUH

No religious scholors worth thier salt will call tham non-muslim, atheist just a bad muslim

 

[Itachi]

That's how the Abrahamic God is, even in Christianity as long as you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior then you're saved regardless of whatever sins you commit. Acknowledging the universe as the Lord's sovereign is most important, that's the ticket to heaven.

Seems like Islamic extremists were also following the same principle and was hoping they could enter heaven since whatever they did, they did it with the interest of Islam at heart. Why judge or punish them though?

Do you agree with their perspective or not?

 

[Itachi]

The issue with some muslims (not all) here in PP, they will use some criterion to judge atheists, non believers but as soon as you start to implement those criterion on them or the entity, then you'll get the answer of, "those principles doesn't apply here."

So there is one set of criteria to judge non believers and another set to the other party.

 

[Giannis]

Seems like Islamic extremists were also following the same principle and was hoping they could enter heaven since whatever they did, they did it with the interest of Islam at heart. Why judge or punish them though?

Do you agree with their perspective or not?

Extremists/terrorists practice bid'ah therefore fall out of the fold of Islam and are classed as non-believers

 

[Itachi]

Extremists/terrorists practice bid'ah therefore fall out of the fold of Islam and are classed as non-believers

What bid'ah they did in your perspective? Which actions you consider as bid'ah?

Even then, they believe in God. The true one. So how come they are non believers?

 

[Giannis]

What bid'ah they did in your perspective? Which actions you consider as bid'ah?

Even then, they believe in God. The true one. So how come they are non believers?

Bid'ah also means misattributing teachings or rulings to Allah. For example a Muslim can drink or steal or commit zina but as long as he doesn't try to justify it Islamically then he will be forgiven (if he seeks forgiveness) and still believes in Allah however what extremists do is that they attibute their version of Islam to Allah claiming what they do is justified and is what Allah actually wants - this misattribution is a form of Bid'ah as you're twisting the religion and God's word.

 

[Itachi]

Bid'ah also means misattributing teachings or rulings to Allah. For example a Muslim can drink or steal or commit zina but as long as he doesn't try to justify it Islamically then he will be forgiven (if he seeks forgiveness) and still believes in Allah however what extremists do is that they attibute their version of Islam to Allah claiming what they do is justified and is what Allah actually wants - this misattribution is a form of Bid'ah as you're twisting the religion and God's word.

"That's how the Abrahamic God is, even in Christianity as long as you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior then you're saved regardless of whatever sins you commit. Acknowledging the universe as the Lord's sovereign is most important, that's the ticket to heaven."

Those are your words.

The extremists have done sins but they believes in God, acknowledges his presence which will outweigh any sins including twisting the words of religion (as long as they aren't attributing another entities as true God). Hence they can not be called non muslims since they follow the first kalima which is above any other aspects.

Your own words are contradicting each other.

 

[Giannis]

"That's how the Abrahamic God is, even in Christianity as long as you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior then you're saved regardless of whatever sins you commit. Acknowledging the universe as the Lord's sovereign is most important, that's the ticket to heaven."

Those are your words.

The extremists have done sins but they believes in God, acknowledges his presence which will outweigh any sins including twisting the words of religion (as long as they aren't attributing another entities as true God). Hence they can not be called non muslims since they follow the first kalima which is above any other aspects.

Your own words are contradicting each other.

Except Extremists commit the worst form of Bidah they literally twist the Quran and claim that's what Allah wants. If you commit a sin but acknoqelege that it's not Islamic and it makes you a bad Muslim then you haven't committed Bidah and may perhaps be forgiven as you are still Muslim however extremists believe what they're doing makes them good Muslims, sometimes they even think they're the best of Muslim. This is bidah is not forgivable, it's similar libel - don't ever misattribute your actions to Allah's rulings. If a Muslim stole, lied, fornicated and then justified it by saying it's halal in Islam then they would too be committing bid'ah.

 

[Itachi]

Except Extremists commit the worst form of Bidah they literally twist the Quran and claim that's what Allah wants. If you commit a sin but acknoqelege that it's not Islamic and it makes you a bad Muslim then you haven't committed Bidah and may perhaps be forgiven as you are still Muslim however extremists believe what they're doing makes them good Muslims, sometimes they even think they're the best of Muslim. This is bidah is not forgivable, it's similar libel - don't ever misattribute your actions to Allah's rulings. If a Muslim stole, lied, fornicated and then justified it by saying it's halal in Islam then they would too be committing bid'ah.

So bid'ah is on same level of apostasy?

 

[Giannis]

So bid'ah is on same level of apostasy?

yes

 

[Stewie]

These people are not Muslims. I am sorry. A bit ridiculous to be honest. Muslims in America are some of the most conservative yet rational and level headed people I have ever known. Very unlike the dogmatic two faced hypocrites who make the waves in Pakistan and elsewhere.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

These people are not Muslims. I am sorry. A bit ridiculous to be honest. Muslims in America are some of the most conservative yet rational and level headed people I have ever known. Very unlike the dogmatic two faced hypocrites who make the waves in Pakistan and elsewhere.

Why not? With the exception of eating pork, everything else she mentioned some Muslims in the US do.

Especially alcohol. Muslims have been drinking it for the last 1,400 years.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Muslims in America are some of the most conservative yet rational and level headed people

Are you implying that conservative people are not rational or level leaded? Interesting choice of word "yet".

 

[Stewie]

Why not? With the exception of eating pork, everything else she mentioned some Muslims in the US do.

Especially alcohol. Muslims have been drinking it for the last 1,400 years.

If they do it, they are not Muslims. How many times have we heard either you are all in or all out with Islam. If you do haram stuff, you can call yourself a Muslim, of course, nobody can stop you but by and large you are not one, if one follows the conventional definition of a Muslim.

A Muslim is one who observes the five pillars of Islam. (Iman, Namaz, Roza, Zakat, Hajj) in sunni tradition, Shiite tradition is also fairly close to it. In all my life, I have rarely come across someone who drinks and then observes these other pillars as a devout Muslim should. It just doesn’t happen.. My POV is more from a philosophical/religious standpoint and I know it doesn’t jive with the “humanitarian/sociological” view so I am sure a lot of the people will disagree.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

If they do it, they are not Muslims. How many times have we heard either you are all in or all out with Islam. If you do haram stuff, you can call yourself a Muslim, of course, nobody can stop you but by and large you are not one, if one follows the conventional definition of a Muslim.

A Muslim is one who observes the five pillars of Islam. (Iman, Namaz, Roza, Zakat, Hajj) in sunni tradition, Shiite tradition is also fairly close to it. In all my life, I have rarely come across someone who drinks and then observes these other pillars as a devout Muslim should. It just doesn’t happen.. My POV is more from a philosophical/religious standpoint and I know it doesn’t jive with the “humanitarian/sociological” view so I am sure a lot of the people will disagree.

That sounds like Takfiri logic. I dont think people should hand out certificates on who is or who isn't a Muslim. If someone identifies as a Muslim that should be good enough.

One of the 5 pillars of Islam is to pray 5 times a day. How many Muslims do that?

I dont think i prayed more than 5 times the entire last year. Maybe to some that might mean i might be a Muslim in name only, but to me my Muslim identity is extremely important. No one has a right to call me a non Muslim.

 

[Bigboii]

These people are not Muslims. I am sorry. A bit ridiculous to be honest. Muslims in America are some of the most conservative yet rational and level headed people I have ever known. Very unlike the dogmatic two faced hypocrites who make the waves in Pakistan and elsewhere.

Oh boy I have to disagree with you there this is not my experience...

 

[DeadlyVenom]

That sounds like Takfiri logic. I dont think people should hand out certificates on who is or who isn't a Muslim. If someone identifies as a Muslim that should be good enough.

One of the 5 pillars of Islam is to pray 5 times a day. How many Muslims do that?

I dont think i prayed more than 5 times the entire last year. Maybe to some that might mean i might be a Muslim in name only, but to me my Muslim identity is extremely important. No one has a right to call me a non Muslim.

Thats great and good for your that you feel a strong affinity to an identity, although there is a contradiction between claiming that you are something in name only and also maintaining its a strong identify. Each to their own I guess.

I agree btw that we shouldn't be handing out labels but in some cases its clear cut and I think slog has summarised it brilliantly.

If you do not pray 5 times a day but accept that its farz to do so then then in some respects that's ok. many of us are in a similar boat.

It becomes an issue when people start to twist the meaning of prayer or fasting like in the article. If instead of praying 5 times a day you decide that it is for you prayer means doing a handstand 5 times a day that's when it becomes an issue.

 

[CricketCartoons]

A Muslim is one who observes the five pillars of Islam.

No, a muslim is one who believes in Allah and Prophet Muhammad pbuh as the seal of prophets. That is all that makes you a muslim.

 

[Major]

You guys do know that in Pakistan many of these supporters of TLP also consume alcahol

 

[IndoorCricket]

So during final moments of ones life if they truly believe Allah is the only god Islam's Prophet is the last Prophet will they be a true Muslim and saved from Hell fire?

 

[Stewie]

So during final moments of ones life if they truly believe Allah is the only god Islam's Prophet is the last Prophet will they be a true Muslim and saved from Hell fire?

I know you will get a lot of different answers for such questions. But from what I understand, Islam says it’s not up to us to know or decide who goes to heaven or hell. That’s Allah’s decision. He knows the true “niyyat” so even if you are not Muslim, but you have done any deeds that make you redeemable in His eyes, you will be redeemed.

It’s not one of those situations where you only go to heaven if you pay church fees and whatnot... God knows best and His mercy is limitless.

 

[The_KING]

Breaking fast with a glass of wine. Talk about taking the absolute ****.

Look, we all sin. No one is a perfect Muslim. I am not going to say that someone who drinks alcohol isn’t a perfect Muslim. That isn’t for me or any Muslim to judge. But reading this, I get the impression that she is proud of the fact that she drinks alcohol and isn’t a perfect Muslim. That is nothing to be proud of. Keep your sins to yourself and don’t reveal them.

 

[IndoorCricket]

I know you will get a lot of different answers for such questions. But from what I understand, Islam says it’s not up to us to know or decide who goes to heaven or hell. That’s Allah’s decision. He knows the true “niyyat” so even if you are not Muslim, but you have done any deeds that make you redeemable in His eyes, you will be redeemed.

It’s not one of those situations where you only go to heaven if you pay church fees and whatnot... God knows best and His mercy is limitless.

Good to know what you think about it. I personally think our deeds and actions are far superior than what our belief is.

 

[Itachi]

I know you will get a lot of different answers for such questions. But from what I understand, Islam says it’s not up to us to know or decide who goes to heaven or hell. That’s Allah’s decision. He knows the true “niyyat” so even if you are not Muslim, but you have done any deeds that make you redeemable in His eyes, you will be redeemed.

It’s not one of those situations where you only go to heaven if you pay church fees and whatnot... God knows best and His mercy is limitless.

By that token, apostasy shouldn't be a sin.

 

[gani999]

You guys do know that in Pakistan many of these supporters of TLP also consume alcahol

Many French muslims of North African origin consume wine and also eat pork. I also know lots who don't fast during Ramadan.

I know a British professor of Pakistani descent who loves his whisky and pork sausages.

Why must it be binding only on Muslims to follow their religion? They are as entitled to their fun as anyone else.

 

[Nadeemp]

Mohammed jinnahs fav breakfast was sausage and eggs or bacon and eggs

 

[Badsha]

I don't drink but I find it funny how muslims find drinking so taboo but lying and not following core tenants of Islam is no issue for them.

If you read the Quran drinking comes much lower down the order for ranking in sin than something like Lying.

 

[Badsha]

These people are not Muslims. I am sorry. A bit ridiculous to be honest. Muslims in America are some of the most conservative yet rational and level headed people I have ever known. Very unlike the dogmatic two faced hypocrites who make the waves in Pakistan and elsewhere.

I will agree we are rational but not as conservative. We have strong faith but don't get into the stupid nitty grittiy's like our UK brethren.

 

[maverick85]

I will agree we are rational but not as conservative. We have strong faith but don't get into the stupid nitty grittiy's like our UK brethren.

How is not consuming alcohol equated to stupid nitty gritty. It's pretty basic. You don't consume it if you're a practicing Muslim. Pretty simple

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Sure. Everyone can make up their own rules, do all kinds of unislamic things and still call themselves a Muslim.

Isn't that what people of other religions do as well? We have the atheist hindu ( posting on this very thread!), the Zionist Jews, the ethnic cleansing Buddhists, and so on.

Perhaps you feel that Muslims should be held to a higher standard as they are the exemplars of modern day religion. I can see how you might think that, but there is the ideal and there is reality, then there are probably some grey areas in between.

 

[Bigboii]

I don't drink but I find it funny how muslims find drinking so taboo but lying and not following core tenants of Islam is no issue for them.

If you read the Quran drinking comes much lower down the order for ranking in sin than something like Lying.

Yeah I don't think so, lying isn't a major sin afaik

 

[emranabbas]

people also consume alcohol do zinnah gamble date etc.. in "Islamic counties" and claim to be Muslims. What do you say about then or does this only apply to Muslims living in western countries

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

The only requirement to be Muslim is to believe in Allah as one supreme being and Muhammad pbuh be his last messenger. That’s it

 

[sindhiboy]

Breaking fast with a Wine

I was in Cairo and I saw a bunch of teenagers in a restaurant break their fast by smoking a cigarette.

Very disrespectful

 

[Third_Umpire]

Waiting for all the militant Mullahs to issue fatwas against this woman

 

[Stewie]

By that token, apostasy shouldn't be a sin.

Apostasy is a sin. It if the apostate realizes his/her mistake and gets back on the right path, he/she will be forgiven. That’s my take on it. An apostate is one who gives up on the faith in God and the righteous ways. So how would that be not a sin and how did you reach this conclusion from my previous post is beyond me.

If you are trying to lead the conversation to whether apostasy is punishable or not, that’s a different story. And honestly, I don’t have a clear answer for that one.

 

[Stewie]

I will agree we are rational but not as conservative. We have strong faith but don't get into the stupid nitty grittiy's like our UK brethren.

I read similar comments on my thoughts before your post as well. I guess it depends on the circles you move around in. I know there are of course a lot of liberal Muslims in the US but mostly the ones I associate with are very conservative. I have lived in different states and people my age, professional educated ones tend to be usually more on the conservative side. Of course when I was younger, I did see a lot of guys drinking, doing drugs, etc, but for most it was a phase that came and went.

Everybody’s experiences are different. Mine lead me to believe a big majority here is really conservative.

 

[Itachi]

Apostasy is a sin. It if the apostate realizes his/her mistake and gets back on the right path, he/she will be forgiven. That’s my take on it. An apostate is one who gives up on the faith in God and the righteous ways. So how would that be not a sin and how did you reach this conclusion from my previous post is beyond me.

If you are trying to lead the conversation to whether apostasy is punishable or not, that’s a different story. And honestly, I don’t have a clear answer for that one.

You stated God's mercy is limitless. But in reality it isn't and comes with a strict restriction. The mercy is present as long as you worship HIM and not any other entity. Similar to how a man will react in terms of treating others. If you are dedicated to someone, then more or less you'll be forgiven even if you make mistakes but if you aren't dedicated to that person, you'll receive the punishment that is pre decided. So here, the entity shows the same emotions that the common people have.

 

[Stewie]

You stated God's mercy is limitless. But in reality it isn't and comes with a strict restriction. The mercy is present as long as you worship HIM and not any other entity. Similar to how a man will react in terms of treating others. If you are dedicated to someone, then more or less you'll be forgiven even if you make mistakes but if you aren't dedicated to that person, you'll receive the punishment that is pre decided. So here, the entity shows the same emotions that the common people have.

Once again, human beings cannot predict the matters of divine forgiveness. We can only live by a certain code that is given to us. That code describes what’s a sin. You try and stay away from it. The rest is up to God. You are deriving the wrong inferences here about mercy. It is limitless but not guaranteed.

I’ll give you an example: when you are in school, you are at the mercy of your teachers. You are given a syllabus and a bunch of assignments with due dates. You go by it. But if you miss a date or an assignment, it is up to the discretion of the teacher to decide whether to give you a zero or partial or full credit. It is the same here. It is all up to Him. We have to do what we can in the light of the guidance provided to us. The mercy and the concept of sawab/gunah should not be intermingled. Guaranteed mercy renders sawab/gunah pointless and meaningless. We all might as well start doing the most evil deeds possible because we know God will forgive us.

Whether you intended or not, you have raised a very important point and this is what delineates Islam and Christianity. Basically what you described is Christian belief that Jesus died for all our sins and we are all going to heaven. Islam states that you will be judged for your deeds on judgment day.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

So during final moments of ones life if they truly believe Allah is the only god Islam's Prophet is the last Prophet will they be a true Muslim and saved from Hell fire?

You are thinking of Original Sin, which is a part of Christianity. In Christianity the belief is that all humans are born sinners, and the way to go heaven is to accept that Jesus died for you sins, and accept that he is your Lord and savior.


Muslims believe the people will be judged on their actions, and that will decide who goes to heaven or hell.

 

[IndoorCricket]

You are thinking of Original Sin, which is a part of Christianity. In Christianity the belief is that all humans are born sinners, and the way to go heaven is to accept that Jesus died for you sins, and accept that he is your Lord and savior.


Muslims believe the people will be judged on their actions, and that will decide who goes to heaven or hell.

So does it mean one can be a non-Muslim, do good deeds and still go to Heaven?

 

[Giannis]

So does it mean one can be a non-Muslim, do good deeds and still go to Heaven?

There are certain prereqs that a non-believer wouldn't meet however it is said that all non-Muslims will be rewarded for their good deeds - we just don't know what the compensation entails.

 

[Stewie]

So does it mean one can be a non-Muslim, do good deeds and still go to Heaven?

Yes. It’s up to God, He may like one good deed of yours and forgive all your sins. One of those deeds can be repenting for the misdeeds in your life.

At least that’s what I believe in and have derived from what I have read in the Quran.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Yes. It’s up to God, He may like one good deed of yours and forgive all your sins. One of those deeds can be repenting for the misdeeds in your life.

At least that’s what I believe in and have derived from what I have read in the Quran.

The honest answer would be "I don't know".

 

[dildilpak]

I come from a liberal 3rd generation Pakistani-American family- my grandfather was one of the earliest Pakistani diplomats to US & later on his family was among the first batch of Pakistani immigrants to US after the Hart-Celler was passed. As such, his memories of Pakistan was of a liberal urban society which wasnt always religiously rigid as it is these days - so while we grew up learning about our religion & Pakistan, we were encouraged to self-determine the boundaries of that in our personal life. Now when i go back to Pakistan & meet the extended family (my wife is a first generation so she has deeper roots than me), the difference between theirs & our family’s belief system is stark. My grandparents would have found it very difficult to adjust in today’s Pakistan.