Tim Bresnan: The new Kapil Dev?

[Romali_rotti]

The suggestion that Kapil Dev was somehow better than Ian Botham is just bizarre. Put them head-to-head and Botham just murdered Kapil Dev.

Read again Mr Pakistani: If you cant put out against the best, you are no good in my opinion no matter what you did against the rest....

 

[Bhaijaan]

Whether its tennis, boxing or basketball. If you cannot show up against the big league, you're no good. Kapil was a beast of a sporstman in that regard. First to win the world cup after the West Indians, world record holder for 10+ years in test wickets and #1 performer against West Indies and Australia.

 

[Junaids]

Read again Mr Pakistani: If you cant put out against the best, you are no good in my opinion no matter what you did against the rest....

But you have elevated Kapil Dev's status on the basis of what he did against a reserve West Indies team full of players like Alvin Greenidge and Faoud Bacchus.

On your criteria, Kapil Dev won 1 Test out of 20 against the proper West Indies team.

Imran Khan won 4 out of 16, and drew a further 6, 2 of which he saved personally.

And you still have to accept how vastly differently Kapil Dev and Ian Botham performed on the same pitch at Bombay in the Jubilee Test, because it reveals exactly what each player was.

Kapil Dev was a performer in the Shane Watson class. Ian Botham often performed at that level, but he was capable of much, much greater deeds than Kapil Dev was.

The 1986-87 Ashes are a case in point - Botham's batting on the first day in Brisbane (138) and his bowling on the first day at Melbourne (5-41) turned the series by winning those two Tests.

Kapil Dev just wasn't capable of that.

 

[Bhaijaan]

LOL at proper WI team. Kapil took apart the likes of Holding, Garner for fun.

 

[dani2k]

Kapil didn't miss a test match due to fitness issues - if it wasn't for the stupid BCCI which sidelined him for a test match due to ego related reasons, would have been the first international cricketer to have played 100 tests without a break.

Not to forget his WC win as a 24 yr old captain (ahead of all his contemporary all rounders) with a team that was a practical minnow and his world record 175 no with a strike rate that would be on par with current t20 strike rates.

And on the OP - ROFL..

 

[Junaids]

Whether its tennis, boxing or basketball. If you cannot show up against the big league, you're no good. Kapil was a beast of a sporstman in that regard. First to win the world cup after the West Indians, world record holder for 10+ years in test wickets and #1 performer against West Indies and Australia.

But as I've shown you:

1) Australia was crap then.
2) He bloated his batting records against West Indies C, not the real West Indies
3) He took more Test wickets because he did more bowling because his teammates were even worse at bowling than he was.

Here are the respective records of Kapil Dev and the man he supposedly "overtook", Sir Richard Hadlee:

Kapil Dev: 434 wickets @ 29.64 (SR 63.9)
Richard Hadlee: 431 wickets @ 22.29 (SR 50.8)

Quite comically, Kapil Dev didn't even have a better bowling record than Richard Hadlee IN INDIA!

Kapil Dev IN INDIA: 219 wickets @ 26.49
Richard Hadlee IN INDIA: 31 wickets @ 22.22

 

[dani2k]

LOL at proper WI team. Kapil took apart the likes of Holding, Garner for fun.

I would say why should Kapil's stat be excluded because of the "non regular WI team"? Did he select the opposition or did he by some conspiracy ensure that the oppositions best players deflected to the rebel league?

Why should he be penalized for something he had no control over? You only play the opposition given to you..

 

[Junaids]

LOL at proper WI team. Kapil took apart the likes of Holding, Garner for fun.

I'd love to know when he did that.

Because I've shown you that the only Test series against the West Indies in which he scored big runs was the one when Holding, Roberts, Garner and Croft were away playing for the West Indies in Australia at the time.......

 

[Romali_rotti]

But you have elevated Kapil Dev's status on the basis of what he did against a reserve West Indies team full of players like Alvin Greenidge and Faoud Bacchus.

On your criteria, Kapil Dev won 1 Test out of 20 against the proper West Indies team.

Imran Khan won 4 out of 16, and drew a further 6, 2 of which he saved personally.

And you still have to accept how vastly differently Kapil Dev and Ian Botham performed on the same pitch at Bombay in the Jubilee Test, because it reveals exactly what each player was.

Kapil Dev was a performer in the Shane Watson class. Ian Botham often performed at that level, but he was capable of much, much greater deeds than Kapil Dev was.

The 1986-87 Ashes are a case in point - Botham's batting on the first day in Brisbane (138) and his bowling on the first day at Melbourne (5-41) turned the series by winning those two Tests.

Kapil Dev just wasn't capable of that.

Read again Mr Pakistani: If you cant put out against the best, you are no good in my opinion no matter what you did against the rest....

 

[dani2k]

Regarding bowling averages..

Where did Kapil and Hadlee predominantly bowl? India and New Zealand respectively...

How are the bowling conditions for seamers in both countries? I rest my case.

 

[Bhaijaan]

For the 8-15 year olds in this thread who do not actually know of Kapil. This was Kapil Dev-

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6K25C4pcsrs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Junaids]

I would say why should Kapil's stat be excluded because of the "non regular WI team"? Did he select the opposition or did he by some conspiracy ensure that the oppositions best players deflected to the rebel league?

Why should he be penalized for something he had no control over? You only play the opposition given to you..

Seriously?
[MENTION=65183]freelance_cricketer[/MENTION] and [MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION] introduced this criterion to try to big up Kapil Dev in which you only count matches against "the best teams".

But the real West Indies did not play that 1978-79 series. Even the reserves didn't - they were all in Australia playing proper cricket. The bowling attack was Sylvester Clarke backed up by Norbert Phillip, Vanburn Holder and Deryck Parry, for goodness sake. That's an India-quality "attack".

And the batting was Herbert Chang, Faoud Bacchus, Alvin Greenidge and an ancient Kallicharran.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't count if you are setting the criteria as "performance against the best teams".

 

[Junaids]

For the 8-15 year olds in this thread who do not actually know of Kapil. This was Kapil Dev-

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6K25C4pcsrs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It was Kapil Dev, but it wasn't England! Ask [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

Geoff Boycott, Graham Gooch, Peter Willey, Alan Knott, Derek Underwood, John Emburey, Chris Old and Mike Hendrick were all banned for touring South Africa six months earlier.

David Gower, Ian Botham, Bob Willis and Allan Lamb - who was making his debut - were the only 4 players in the England team who would have been selected normally.

So well done. You've done it again. Highlighted how good Kapil Dev was against reserves.

 

[Indian_Supporter]

Englishmen and their way of hyping up their own players. When Vaughan had one good year in test cricket, English media/experts were hailing him as next Sachin and Lara. Probably because they do not produce any quality cricketers (anymore) hence these dillusions with mediocre ones.

 

[dani2k]

How old was Kapil in the 1978-79 series? When did he make his debut and when did be debut against WI in WI which was the top team in world cricket then and the toughest conditions to master then?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Seriously?
[MENTION=65183]freelance_cricketer[/MENTION] and [MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION] introduced this criterion to try to big up Kapil Dev in which you only count matches against "the best teams".


And the batting was Herbert Chang, Faoud Bacchus, Alvin Greenidge and an ancient Kallicharran.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't count if you are setting the criteria as "performance against the best teams".

You tell me which batsmen has ever scored a 100 with a strike rate of 100 plus vs Mashall, Holding & Garner in their back yard.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63336.html

Hints:

- Your Imran did not do it.

- Botham wouldn't and couldn't lol..


Name me a batsmen proper or allrounder who done this @ their house in WI.

 

[dani2k]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]...For a 20 year old who had barely made his debut a few months ago..to go to west indies and have a record (that you have pointed) against them in their back yard - why should that stat be ignored?

 

[Robert]

I've just realised how bloated and misleading Kapil Dev's batting record against the West Indies

My view is that Kapil was a bit better than Botham as a bowler but not as good as a batter. His three centuries against WI look good on paper but only one of them was against the premier attack. The other two were basically WI A sides featuring people like Winston Davis. Botham copped the full warhead for fifteen tests out of fifteen.

By this criterion of performance vs WI, Allan Lamb was a better batsman than Gooch and Gower. Oh wait a minute, he couldn't play spin bowling!

 

[Junaids]

You tell me which batsmen has ever scored a 100 with a strike rate of 100 plus vs Mashall, Holding & Garner in their back yard.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63336.html

Hints:

- Your Imran did not do it.

- Botham wouldn't and couldn't lol..


Name me a batsmen proper or allrounder who done this @ their house in WI.

Do you remember that Test?

Kapil Dev came in around Tea on the final day with India 325-5, a lead of just over 100.

It very quickly became apparent that the West Indies were not going to bowl them out and were going to save their energy for the next Test. The bowlers run-ups got shorter and shorter and shorter and it was like a practice match. Because the West Indies had a 4 quicks selection policy they all still had to bowl but by the final hour they were doing impressions of one another - and Bob Willis and Jeff Thomson - as they came in to bowl.

So it really is pushing it to count an innings in the final hour of a Test against bowlers doing impressions of one another as some sort of record.

 

[Robert]

Englishmen and their way of hyping up their own players. When Vaughan had one good year in test cricket, English media/experts were hailing him as next Sachin and Lara.

I would say we are quite a modest people, usually playing down our successes.

Vaughan looked like Tendulkar and Lara during his purple patch - those three centuries against McWarne in their own yard were masterful. It was the best batting I have ever seen by an England player and I include Gooch, Gower and KP in that.

Then the ECB made Vaughan skipper, and instantly his performance level dropped precipitously.

He was a brilliant skipper, though. The best since Brearley.

 

[Romali_rotti]

My view is that Kapil was a bit better than Botham as a bowler but not as good as a batter. His three centuries against WI look good on paper but only one of them was against the premier attack. The other two were basically WI A sides featuring people like Winston Davis. Botham copped the full warhead for fifteen tests out of fifteen.

!

WA A side featuring Patrick Patterson and Walsh ? Same Patrick Patterson that terrorized Gooch ? ...

 

[Robert]

It very quickly became apparent that the West Indies were not going to bowl them out and were going to save their energy for the next Test. The bowlers run-ups got shorter and shorter and shorter and it was like a practice match. Because the West Indies had a 4 quicks selection policy they all still had to bowl but by the final hour they were doing impressions of one another - and Bob Willis and Jeff Thomson - as they came in to bowl.

A lot of Indians seem long on numbers and short on context. See the Lillee stupidity.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]...For a 20 year old who had barely made his debut a few months ago..to go to west indies and have a record (that you have pointed) against them in their back yard - why should that stat be ignored?

It wasn't in the West Indies - it was in India.

And they were the West Indies in name only - Chang and Bacchus and Phillip and Holder et al.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Do you remember that Test?

Kapil Dev came in around Tea on the final day with India 325-5, a lead of just over 100.

It very quickly became apparent that the West Indies were not going to bowl them out and were going to save their energy for the next Test. The bowlers run-ups got shorter and shorter and shorter and it was like a practice match. Because the West Indies had a 4 quicks selection policy they all still had to bowl but by the final hour they were doing impressions of one another - and Bob Willis and Jeff Thomson - as they came in to bowl.

So it really is pushing it to count an innings in the final hour of a Test against bowlers doing impressions of one another as some sort of record.

Ofcourse Mr Pakistani, WI bowled with less effort when DEV clubbed them all over the park. You need help buddy you are the most insecure poster I have met online, heck and I have met a few but you take the cake.. Pakistan Zindabad ..



P.S. Inzi is the greatest batsmen of pace

 

[Romali_rotti]

A lot of Indians seem long on numbers and short on context. See the Lillee stupidity.

Ofcourse Lillee bowled his heart out on those flat wickets from the 70's and got wickets.. We have a poster called WL who goes out of his way to bring photos of those uncovered wickets from the 70's and 80's just to prove SRT had it easy in the 90s... You fans are unbelievably comical..

OH and again; Lillee couldn't hold Mcgrath's Jocks...

 

[Junaids]

WA A side featuring Patrick Patterson and Walsh ? Same Patrick Patterson that terrorized Gooch ? ...

They were very much the West Indies reserve bowlers in the mid-1980s.

Patterson played for us at Lancashire until we upgraded to Wasim Akram. He was scary on an underprepared pitch like Sabina Park in 85-86, but he had nothing to offer apart from raw pace.

Courtney Walsh was only a reserve for the first five years of his career, about the same level as Tony Gray and Winston Davis.

Until 1988, the frontline bowlers were Holding, Garner and Marshall and then from 1988 they were Ambrose, Bishop and Marshall. Courtney Walsh only established himself after England's 1989-90 tour when Ian Bishop's back gave up the ghost.

 

[dani2k]

All right my bad...but he still was a rookie playing against the then #1 team. That the opposition didn't have their best players was not his problem...

The WICB should have called off the tour if they had concerns...they didn't and so the record stands.

 

[Robert]

WA A side featuring Patrick Patterson and Walsh ? Same Patrick Patterson that terrorized Gooch ? ...

In WI on concrete tracks, with Marshall at the other end. Gooch handled Batterson rather easily in England.

Walsh was a sort of Stuart Broad figure in those days and had to wait for Holding and Garner to retire before he could get a game.

Context.

 

[dani2k]

Dp

 

[IndianWillow]

But you have elevated Kapil Dev's status on the basis of what he did against a reserve West Indies team full of players like Alvin Greenidge and Faoud Bacchus.

On your criteria, Kapil Dev won 1 Test out of 20 against the proper West Indies team.

Imran Khan won 4 out of 16, and drew a further 6, 2 of which he saved personally.

And you still have to accept how vastly differently Kapil Dev and Ian Botham performed on the same pitch at Bombay in the Jubilee Test, because it reveals exactly what each player was.

Kapil Dev was a performer in the Shane Watson class. Ian Botham often performed at that level, but he was capable of much, much greater deeds than Kapil Dev was.

The 1986-87 Ashes are a case in point - Botham's batting on the first day in Brisbane (138) and his bowling on the first day at Melbourne (5-41) turned the series by winning those two Tests.

Kapil Dev just wasn't capable of that.

Botham hit a purple patch in the first 2-3 years of his career. After that, he was just pretty ordinary. His bowling average was close to 40 after the early 80s, inspite of playing many home matches on friendly wickets. Kapil was a lot more consistent inspite of taking on a much bigger burden - Kapil played far too many matches, played without decent support bowlers at the other end, bowled 70% of his career on unfriendly Asiatic conditions and so forth, and also lifted his game against WI - even producing a 9-83 against a beastly WI side on an Indian wicket. (though it could not win the match - but what more can a bowler do?)

Kapil has some of the best knocks in the WI at their prime. Kapil is the only batsman in history to hit a run a ball 100 against a WI side that included all four - Marshall, Roberts, Garner and Holding. Kapil hit the two most brutal fifties against the WI at their peak in their own backyard. See for yourself.

 

[dani2k]

A lot of Indians seem long on numbers and short on context. See the Lillee stupidity.

The English teams 2-1 victory over India in late 2013 is a farce because India's greats were on their last legs and the newcomers were finding their feet ....are we good on context here please

 

[Junaids]

Ofcourse Lillee bowled his heart out on those flat wickets from the 70's and got wickets.. We have a poster called WL who goes out of his way to bring photos of those uncovered wickets from the 70's and 80's just to prove SRT had it easy in the 90s... You fans are unbelievably comical..

OH and again; Lillee couldn't hold Mcgrath's Jocks...

We will have to agree to disagree.

Lillee was a much better bowler than McGrath - McGrath was just a fast-medium metronome like Ambrose or Garner or Van Der Bijl, and probably not quite as good as any of those three.

Dennis Lillee was a terrific bowler, the best white fast bowler that I have ever seen, although Fred Trueman was a little bit better probably.

But because he only ever bowled 100 overs in Asia in his entire life, most of them just before he retired and the rest on tracks which had been specially prepared to neutralise him, certain Asian posters love to minimise his achievements.

 

[Robert]

Ofcourse Lillee bowled his heart out on those flat wickets from the 70's and got wickets.. We have a poster called WL who goes out of his way to bring photos of those uncovered wickets from the 70's and 80's just to prove SRT had it easy in the 90s... You fans are unbelievably comical..

The wickets in the 1970s and 1980s were covered.

 

[Junaids]

Botham hit a purple patch in the first 2-3 years of his career. After that, he was just pretty ordinary. His bowling average was close to 40 after the early 80s, inspite of playing many home matches on friendly wickets. Kapil was a lot more consistent inspite of taking on a much bigger burden - Kapil played far too many matches, played without decent support bowlers at the other end, bowled 70% of his career on unfriendly Asiatic conditions and so forth, and also lifted his game against WI - even producing a 9-83 against a beastly WI side on an Indian wicket. (though it could not win the match - but what more can a bowler do?)

Kapil has some of the best knocks in the WI at their prime. Kapil is the only batsman in history to hit a run a ball 100 against a WI side that included all four - Marshall, Roberts, Garner and Holding. Kapil hit the two most brutal fifties against the WI at their peak in their own backyard. See for yourself.

I agree with most of your post, but not about Kapil Dev's first two centuries against the West Indies.

The first was against reserve bowlers in the shape of Phillip, Holder, Parry and Clarke.

And the second, as I showed earlier, was in the final hour of a drawn match when the "real" West Indies bowlers were doing impressions of one another because they were just going through the motions until the skippers could shake hands on a draw.

 

[Robert]

OH and again; Lillee couldn't hold Mcgrath's Jocks...

You cannot have seen them both in order to make this statement. Great though McGrath was I would take Lillee every day, and I am sure that McGrath would agree.

 

[Romali_rotti]

We will have to agree to disagree.

.

Your first string of words that finally made any sense.. Well done...

 

[Romali_rotti]

You cannot have seen them both in order to make this statement. Great though McGrath was I would take Lillee every day, and I am sure that McGrath would agree.

Lillee= Give me those bouncy wickets from those old glory days with no short ball rules and I kill it. Take me to the sub continent and I pee my PANTZ.


Mcgrath = Champion in and out, one of or if not the GREATEST....

 

[dani2k]

I agree with most of your post, but not about Kapil Dev's first two centuries against the West Indies.

The first was against reserve bowlers in the shape of Phillip, Holder, Parry and Clarke.

And the second, as I showed earlier, was in the final hour of a drawn match when the "real" West Indies bowlers were doing impressions of one another because they were just going through the motions until the skippers could shake hands on a draw.

The first century was by a 19-20 year old.

Regarding the second - that the west Indian bowlers were tired and going through the motions is not a valid argument - that is part of test cricket.

Do we discredit Mathews latest century against India on a losing cause because the old ball was not doing something and he got lives? Hell no..that is how test cricket works and Mathews got a top class century.

 

[Robert]

Botham hit a purple patch in the first 2-3 years of his career. After that, he was just pretty ordinary.

I'd say the purple patch lasted for six years not 2-3. From 1984 onwards his swing was mostly gone and his pace had dropped, though he could really crank it up when he wanted to as in the eightfer against WI at Lord's in 1984.

He should not have played test matches after the Gatting tour of Australia, where he got his last ton and last fivefer. After that he was just a bitsa and his numbers reduced from 36 batting and 26 bowling to 33 batting and 28 bowling.

He frustrated me, because he could have been the rock of the England middle order with a bit more practice. After his back went he could have become an offie (he got a fivefer in this role against SL).

 

[Junaids]

Lillee= Give me those bouncy wickets from those old glory days with no short ball rules and I kill it. Take me to the sub continent and I pee my PANTZ.


Mcgrath = Champion in and out, one of or if not the GREATEST....

You do realise that Dennis Lillee never bowled a single ball in India?

So you are just inventing the insult based on Pakistan preparing two baked mud pitches to neutralise him, on which even Taslim Arif scored a double century!

 

[Robert]

Lillee= Give me those bouncy wickets from those old glory days with no short ball rules and I kill it.

They were all flat in the seventies, especially Melbourne.

 

[Robert]

You do realise that Dennis Lillee never bowled a single ball in India?

So you are just inventing the insult based on Pakistan preparing two baked mud pitches to neutralise him, on which even Taslim Arif scored a double century!

When he had his back in a brace, and was bowling at 60 mph.

 

[Romali_rotti]

You do realise that Dennis Lillee never bowled a single ball in India?

So you are just inventing the insult based on Pakistan preparing two baked mud pitches to neutralise him, on which even Taslim Arif scored a double century!

Mcgrath & especially now Steyn performed in the sub continent, Lillee didn't... Like I said earlier, Lillee; Lillee= Give me those bouncy wickets from those old glory days with no short ball rules and I kill it. Take me to the sub continent and I pee my PANTZ.

Its all good performing when the wicket suits you but if you cant perform when the going gets tough well then you are just a home track bully.......

 

[Romali_rotti]

They were all flat in the seventies, especially Melbourne.

Oh yeah ofcourse they were lol , I realize you have to go with what suits your point of view Robert... Nothing in this world can convince me a fake like Lillee could stack up the one and only Glenn Mcgrath....

 

[Junaids]

Mcgrath & especially now Steyn performed in the sub continent, Lillee didn't... Like I said earlier, Lillee; Lillee= Give me those bouncy wickets from those old glory days with no short ball rules and I kill it. Take me to the sub continent and I pee my PANTZ.

Its all good performing when the wicket suits you but if you cant perform when the going gets tough well then you are just a home track bully.......

McGrath and Steyn PLAYED in the subcontinent. Lillee never got the chance.

But given how Botham did in the Jubilee Test at Bombay, and how Hadlee did in India, I can't think of any reason whatseover why Lillee would not have done well.

He was the complete bowler. He moved it in and away both off the seam and in the air, he could dig it in short if he had to and he did it all at 145K after his back fractures and well in excess of 150K before.

Apart from Malcolm Marshall he was the best fast bowler of the last 40 years.

Here he is against the greatest batsman since the Second World War.....

 

[IndianWillow]

I agree with most of your post, but not about Kapil Dev's first two centuries against the West Indies.

The first was against reserve bowlers in the shape of Phillip, Holder, Parry and Clarke.

And the second, as I showed earlier, was in the final hour of a drawn match when the "real" West Indies bowlers were doing impressions of one another because they were just going through the motions until the skippers could shake hands on a draw.

Is this some kind of joke? India had to bat out five sessions to draw that match having conceded 200+ lead in the first innings. Most teams would dread that prospect against the WI quicks of the 80s on any wicket. WI were well within a chance to win the match, but Dev scored runs so quickly that India's lead started swelling, and they lost all hopes of win and then went through with their motions. It was a rare case of WI bowlers made submissive through brutal hitting. Except Marshall, Dev made every WI bowler like amateurish on that day - he was freely hitting Roberts and Holdings for fours and sixes. As if to prove that his knock was no fluke, Kapil played a similar knock a month later when he pounded both Roberts and Holding once again, this time in the first innings. Kapil had a batting average of 42 for the entire five test series (second only to Amarnath who arguably demonstrated the greatest ability with the bat in the history of the game), something that would make a top batsman proud against that WI side of early 80s.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Some very rude comments on this thread.

Indians and Pakistanis unite when it comes to under-rating Lillee.

Lillee played like 4 games in Asia.

3 in Pak (2 were pattas and draw) and 1 was in SL and Lillee wasn't well during those tests (if I am not wrong).

Heard Aussie tracks (MCG) were flat in 70s and Lillee used to be crazy good no matter what. And he averaged 26 against Wi in Super Series (unofficial tests).

 

[Junaids]

Is this some kind of joke? India had to bat out five sessions to draw that match having conceded 200+ lead in the first innings. Most teams would dread that prospect against the WI quicks of the 80s on any wicket. WI were well within a chance to win the match, but Dev scored runs so quickly that India's lead started swelling, and they lost all hopes of win and then went through with their motions. It was a rare case of WI bowlers made submissive through brutal hitting. Except Marshall, Dev made every WI bowler like amateurish on that day - he was freely hitting Roberts and Holdings for fours and sixes. As if to prove that his knock was no fluke, Kapil played a similar knock a month later when he pounded both Roberts and Holding once again, this time in the first innings. Kapil had a batting average of 42 for the entire five test series (second only to Amarnath who arguably demonstrated the greatest ability with the bat in the history of the game), something that would make a top batsman proud against that WI side of early 80s.

I don't have my old Wisdens with me, but I do remember following the score updates on Ceefax and Oracle (@Robert will understand) throughout that series, right until poor Gordon Greenidge retired not out 154 at Antigua in the Fifth Test to fly to Barbados to be with his dying daughter.

My recollection of the Kapil Dev innings was this. And it might be wrong. He came in around half an hour before Tea with India 100 ahead and with five wickets in hand. Everybody knew the equation - the same one that saw Pakistan and England draw at Edgbaston in 1987.

The equation was that a team in a Test could chase roughly 110 in 15 overs given the lack of rules about short or wide bowling in the Test format.

So everybody knew that if India scored another 60 runs the game was a draw. West Indies could probably chase:

160 in 30 overs
140 in 25 overs.
120 in 20 overs

(England reached 109-7 in 17.4 overs in the Edgbaston Test, chasing 124 in 18 overs).

The game was on a knife edge for around 5 overs when Kapil Dev came in. The West Indies in effect had 5 overs to take the last 5 wickets or it was a certain draw.

After those 5 overs were up, the only possible result was a draw - and that is when Kapil Dev smashed his way to a fast century against disinterested bowlers who were doing impressions of one another to wile away the time.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Is this some kind of joke? India had to bat out five sessions to draw that match having conceded 200+ lead in the first innings. Most teams would dread that prospect against the WI quicks of the 80s on any wicket. WI were well within a chance to win the match, but Dev scored runs so quickly that India's lead started swelling, and they lost all hopes of win and then went through with their motions. It was a rare case of WI bowlers made submissive through brutal hitting. Except Marshall, Dev made every WI bowler like amateurish on that day - he was freely hitting Roberts and Holdings for fours and sixes. As if to prove that his knock was no fluke, Kapil played a similar knock a month later when he pounded both Roberts and Holding once again, this time in the first innings. Kapil had a batting average of 42 for the entire five test series (second only to Amarnath who arguably demonstrated the greatest ability with the bat in the history of the game), something that would make a top batsman proud against that WI side of early 80s.

lol He is trolling, he is a typical sour grape Pakistani to the core you mention India and he will always find ways more often than not to make Indian efforts look like they were not important or the opposition was not trying.. Best way to deal with him, troll him right back......

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kapil Dev smashed his way to a fast century against disinterested bowlers [/B]who were doing impressions of one another to wile away the time.

@ Indian Willow there it is lol ....

 

[Romali_rotti]

McGrath and Steyn PLAYED in the subcontinent. Lillee never got the chance.

]

Lillee played 4 test and realized he wasn't man enough to play anymore in the sub continent.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Is this some kind of joke? India had to bat out five sessions to draw that match having conceded 200+ lead in the first innings. Most teams would dread that prospect against the WI quicks of the 80s on any wicket. WI were well within a chance to win the match, but Dev scored runs so quickly that India's lead started swelling, and they lost all hopes of win and then went through with their motions. It was a rare case of WI bowlers made submissive through brutal hitting. Except Marshall, Dev made every WI bowler like amateurish on that day - he was freely hitting Roberts and Holdings for fours and sixes. As if to prove that his knock was no fluke, Kapil played a similar knock a month later when he pounded both Roberts and Holding once again, this time in the first innings. Kapil had a batting average of 42 for the entire five test series (second only to Amarnath who arguably demonstrated the greatest ability with the bat in the history of the game), something that would make a top batsman proud against that WI side of early 80s.

Kapil had some crazy madcap innings.

Didn't he slam a beautiful century against the raging Donald where his team mates fell like a pack of cards?

 

[IndianWillow]

I don't have my old Wisdens with me, but I do remember following the score updates on Ceefax and Oracle (@Robert will understand) throughout that series, right until poor Gordon Greenidge retired not out 154 at Antigua in the Fifth Test to fly to Barbados to be with his dying daughter.

My recollection of the Kapil Dev innings was this. And it might be wrong. He came in around half an hour before Tea with India 100 ahead and with five wickets in hand. Everybody knew the equation - the same one that saw Pakistan and England draw at Edgbaston in 1987.

The equation was that a team in a Test could chase roughly 110 in 15 overs given the lack of rules about short or wide bowling in the Test format.

So everybody knew that if India scored another 60 runs the game was a draw. West Indies could probably chase:

160 in 30 overs
140 in 25 overs.
120 in 20 overs

(England reached 109-7 in 17.4 overs in the Edgbaston Test, chasing 124 in 18 overs).

The game was on a knife edge for around 5 overs when Kapil Dev came in. The West Indies in effect had 5 overs to take the last 5 wickets or it was a certain draw.

After those 5 overs were up, the only possible result was a draw - and that is when Kapil Dev smashed his way to a fast century against disinterested bowlers who were doing impressions of one another to wile away the time.

India were 325/5 when Kapil walked in. The match was called off half an hour before schedule and Kapil batted for 142 minutes to get his 100. So effectively 172 minutes of play was possible after Kapil's arrival at the crease. That is equal to about 40 overs, and WI will bowl as much as they can to increase their odds.
Indian lead was just 101 when Kapil walked in, and the game could involve as many as 40 overs. Do you think WI will not try to roll over the Indian tail here if they could? India was not safe until they had played out another 15 overs - 5 tail wickets in 15 overs was never impossible for the WI team. But Kapil scored in such a brutal manner that India reached the safe zone in less than 10 overs. If another batsman had played in the place of Kapil, there was always the chance that India would have folded for 350, setting the WI a target of 125 off 25 overs. And that target was surely not safe against a side that had Viv. Kapil's aggressive batting (I think he got to his 40 in only 28 deliveries, taking the game away very quickly) saved that match for India.

 

[Junaids]

Lillee played 4 test and realized he wasn't man enough to play anymore in the sub continent.

Sorry, wrong.

Dennis Lillee never bowled a single ball in the subcontinent until he was over 30.

At 30 he played three Tests in Pakistan on pancake-flat wickets which had been custom-prepared to neutralise him.

His figures were:
28-4-76-0
6-2-22-0
21-4-91-0
42-9-114-3

Just before his 34th birthday he played a Test at Kandy in Sri Lanka.

His figures were:
19-3-67-2
11-3-40-1

Those six innings were the only times he ever bowled in Asia in his entire career. Yet he is dismissed by fools for those spells.

 

[IndianWillow]

Kapil had some crazy madcap innings.

Didn't he slam a beautiful century against the raging Donald where his team mates fell like a pack of cards?

He has a test strike rate of 81!! That too in the 80s. What else do you expect? Kapil was very good against pace bowling - his rate of scoring made him vulnerable but as long as he was at the crease the opposition captain could not stop worrying. He was probably better against pace than most Indian batsmen in the current Indian team. If you allow Kapil to bat for 2 hours, the opposition is as good as finished. Once Kapil avoided the follow on for India by hitting four successive sixes (when India was nine down with 24 runs required to avoid the follow on). Nobody other than Viv could have done this - Botham would have attempted but probably failed, Imran and Hadlee were incapable of batting like that.

 

[Robert]

Oh yeah ofcourse they were lol , I realize you have to go with what suits your point of view Robert... Nothing in this world can convince me a fake like Lillee could stack up the one and only Glenn Mcgrath....

No, I go with what I remember and read and learn, not just look at numbers on a spreadsheet. That way I get context to understand the numbers.

That you say Lillee is a fake indicates your lack of understanding. Here's Uncle Boyks, who batted against him throughout the seventies and into the eighties:

 

[Romali_rotti]

Sorry, wrong.

Dennis Lillee never bowled a single ball in the subcontinent until he was over 30.

At 30 he played three Tests in Pakistan on pancake-flat wickets which had been custom-prepared to neutralise him.

His figures were:
28-4-76-0
6-2-22-0
21-4-91-0
42-9-114-3

Just before his 34th birthday he played a Test at Kandy in Sri Lanka.

His figures were:
19-3-67-2
11-3-40-1

Those six innings were the only times he ever bowled in Asia in his entire career. Yet he is dismissed by fools for those spells.

Make up your mind, in one post you said he didnt play in the sub continent then you say he did, so what;s it gonna be ? I dont care if he is a 1000 years old and played in the sub continent, did he play in the sub continent YES/NO ?..

Also Mcgrath played in the subcontinent in his 30s to if I remember correctly..

 

[Romali_rotti]

No, I go with what I remember and read and learn, not just look at numbers on a spreadsheet. That way I get context to understand the numbers.

That you say Lillee is a fake indicates your lack of understanding. Here's Uncle Boyks, who batted against him throughout the seventies and into the eighties:

Lillee was a quality bowler when the wickets suited him, I dont disagree...

 

[Junaids]

Make up your mind, in one post you said he didnt play in the sub continent then you say he did, so what;s it gonna be ? I dont care if he is a 1000 years old and played in the sub continent, did he play in the sub continent YES/NO ?..

Also Mcgrath played in the subcontinent in his 30s to if I remember correctly..

Do you not understand my point?

Dennis Lillee never played in India. Ever.

He played one series on doctored wickets in Pakistan - even Imran Khan admitted that the wickets were a nightmare to bowl on.

And just before he retired, having lost his pace, he played one match in Sri Lanka.

How can you judge him on that?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Do you not understand my point?

Dennis Lillee never played in India. Ever.
?

what the ... ? what part of Lillee having played in Sub continent dont you understand ? Last I checked Pakistan is part of the sub continent.........

 

[Junaids]

what the ... ? what part of Lillee having played in Sub continent dont you understand ? Last I checked Pakistan is part of the sub continent.........

And which bit of "doctored wickets" don't you understand?

In the First Test at Karachi, the wicket was so dead that Imran Khan refused to bowl in the second innings.

And the Second Test at Faisalabad was on a wicket even deader, to the extent that 10 wickets fell to bowlers in the entire Test match.

Australia scored 617 in 211 overs, to which Pakistan replied with 382-2 in 126 overs.

Lillee would have had to be a magician to get people out on that. In fact, it is testament to his courage and hard work that he bowled 21 of the 126 overs.

 

[Romali_rotti]

And which bit of "doctored wickets" don't you understand?

.

Awwwww, cry me a river, Blah Blah Blah, when Kapil Dev is smashing the daylights out of Holding, Garner etc the WI bowlers were not interested. But when Lillee cant perform to his home track bully standards the wickets are doctored...................... Excuses Excuses, Indians doctored the wickets for spin to negate Mcgrath it sure as hell did not work, come up with something better Mr Pakistani....

 

[IndianWillow]

Some very rude comments on this thread.

Indians and Pakistanis unite when it comes to under-rating Lillee.

Lillee played like 4 games in Asia.

3 in Pak (2 were pattas and draw) and 1 was in SL and Lillee wasn't well during those tests (if I am not wrong).

Heard Aussie tracks (MCG) were flat in 70s and Lillee used to be crazy good no matter what. And he averaged 26 against Wi in Super Series (unofficial tests).

I don't think anyone underrates Lillee. Some of us think he may not be as good as he is rated to be. Because he didn't prove his ability outside his comfort zone - he played 65 out of 70 tests in Australia, England and NZ. And that is too one dimensional for considering him as one of the best bowlers to have played the game. I suppose if an Asian batsman plays 65 out of 70 tests in Asia and averages even 70 here, no one is going to rate him as one of the best batsmen ever. An Asian batsman has to get big scores in Oz, Eng, SA etc before he can be considered among the best batsmen ever. Similarly, a fast bowler has to get wickets in Asia in order to be considered among the best bowlers ever. Not doing so is unfair on bowlers who have done all the hard work under tough Asian conditions for fast bowling.

 

[Junaids]

Awwwww, cry me a river, Blah Blah Blah, when Kapil Dev is smashing the daylights out of Holding, Garner etc the WI bowlers were not interested. But when Lillee cant perform to his home track bully standards the wickets are doctored...................... Excuses Excuses, Indians doctored the wickets for spin to negate Mcgrath it sure as hell did not work, come up with something better Mr Pakistani....

If I were a Pakistani, let alone a one-eyed Pakistani, wouldn't I be arguing that Dennis Lillee failed in Pakistan due to the tremendous Pakistan team? Whereas I've actually stated clearly that Pakistan was terrified so they prepared dead tracks to neutralise him!

 

[Romali_rotti]

If I were a Pakistani, let alone a one-eyed Pakistani, wouldn't I be arguing that Dennis Lillee failed in Pakistan due to the tremendous Pakistan team? Whereas I've actually stated clearly that Pakistan was terrified so they prepared dead tracks to neutralise him!

You are a Pakistani mate, no need to hide, so easy to see through you it ain't even funny,,

 

[Robert]

Lillee was a quality bowler when the wickets suited him, I dont disagree...

Well, where did they suit him? The wickets in Australia were flat in most of his career, though they quickened up a bit by the early eighties, by which time he was a medium-pacer.

The English wickets tended to be green seamers in those days except the Oval which was a road. Ditto the Kiwi wickets. So those didn't much suit him either - they were better for medium-pace seam-up types like Mike Hendrick - he was too quick to really benefit. When he was in WI he got that career-threatening stress fracture.

Hard trampoline decks which would have benefited him most were few and far between. So he had to learn to cut and swing it. In that regard he was the prototype modern fast bowler. Hadlee, Imran and Marshall all learned from watching how he delivered certain types of ball.

 

[Junaids]

I don't think anyone underrates Lillee. Some of us think he may not be as good as he is rated to be. Because he didn't prove his ability outside his comfort zone - he played 65 out of 70 tests in Australia, England and NZ. And that is too one dimensional for considering him as one of the best bowlers to have played the game. I suppose if an Asian batsman plays 65 out of 70 tests in Asia and averages even 70 here, no one is going to rate him as one of the best batsmen ever. An Asian batsman has to get big scores in Oz, Eng, SA etc before he can be considered among the best batsmen ever. Similarly, a fast bowler has to get wickets in Asia in order to be considered among the best bowlers ever. Not doing so is unfair on bowlers who have done all the hard work under tough Asian conditions for fast bowling.

Very few Test matches were played in Asia in the period 1971-1984.

Sri Lanka had around 8 home Tests and the liberation of East Pakistan had not yet led to a Bangladesh Test team.

So most foreign players hardly played in Asia. I remember the fanfare when Richard Hadlee went there in 1988-89 precisely because he knew that Lillee was not respected as he should be because of his lack of opportunities to play in Asia. Hadlee hadn't played a Test in the subcontinent since 1976, and he was determined to prove what he could do even at the age of almost 38.

Of course he ended up bowling in 4 innings, and taking 5,6,3 and 4 wickets in them!

 

[Mamoon]

Kapil Paaji is nowhere near Imran in Test cricket in any possible way. Can't believe this is even up for debate.

A great cricketer nonetheless, I'd say underrated by Pakistanis in general and overrated by Indians.

It is like the Inzamam situation.

 

[Mamoon]

Forget that....how's the new Imran Khan (Woakes) doing?

England are set for the future - Bresnan (Kapil Paaji), Woakes (Imran), Stokes (Botham). Now if they can find a Hadlee as well, it would be great.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kapil Paaji is nowhere near Imran in Test cricket in any possible way. Can't believe this is even up for debate.

A great cricketer nonetheless, I'd say underrated by Pakistanis in general and overrated by Indians.

It is like the Inzamam situation.

No one said Kapil was better than Imran, thats not the issue here..

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I don't think anyone underrates Lillee. Some of us think he may not be as good as he is rated to be. Because he didn't prove his ability outside his comfort zone - he played 65 out of 70 tests in Australia, England and NZ. And that is too one dimensional for considering him as one of the best bowlers to have played the game. I suppose if an Asian batsman plays 65 out of 70 tests in Asia and averages even 70 here, no one is going to rate him as one of the best batsmen ever. An Asian batsman has to get big scores in Oz, Eng, SA etc before he can be considered among the best batsmen ever. Similarly, a fast bowler has to get wickets in Asia in order to be considered among the best bowlers ever. Not doing so is unfair on bowlers who have done all the hard work under tough Asian conditions for fast bowling.

But if that Asian batsman has like 4 games outside Asia (in hopeless green tracks that too with injuries) and is unanimously considered the best of his generation and several ATG batsmen say they grew up wanting to be him...then you won't call him an FTB based on lack of sample set, would you?

Do check out Deniss Lillee threads here.

Tremendous under rating going on.

I am not saying Denniss Lillee should be rated ahead of McGrath but he doesn't get the respect he deserves here.

Only a few players were ever considered as the undisputable best in their hey deys and Lillee was one of them.

 

[Junaids]

He has a test strike rate of 81!! That too in the 80s. What else do you expect? Kapil was very good against pace bowling - his rate of scoring made him vulnerable but as long as he was at the crease the opposition captain could not stop worrying. He was probably better against pace than most Indian batsmen in the current Indian team. If you allow Kapil to bat for 2 hours, the opposition is as good as finished. Once Kapil avoided the follow on for India by hitting four successive sixes (when India was nine down with 24 runs required to avoid the follow on). Nobody other than Viv could have done this - Botham would have attempted but probably failed, Imran and Hadlee were incapable of batting like that.

I don't think that anyone seriously questions Kapil Dev's batting ability. I compared him to Shane Watson - who has batted right at the top of the Aussie order.

I think that the disagreement is about his bowling ability. I think that he was in the Southee/Watson/Kallis class which was just exceptionally quick for an Indian, so he bowled a huge number of overs and took a huge number of quite expensive wickets.

But many other people clearly think that as a bowler he was better than I think he was.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

What does Paaji mean exactly?

 

[Romali_rotti]

But if that Asian batsman has like 4 games outside Asia (in hopeless green tracks that too with injuries) and is unanimously considered the best of his generation and several ATG batsmen say they grew up wanting to be him...then you won't call him an FTB based on lack of sample set, would you?

Do check out Deniss Lillee threads here.

Tremendous under rating going on.

I am not saying Denniss Lillee should be rated ahead of McGrath but he doesn't get the respect he deserves here.

Only a few players were ever considered as the undisputable best in their hey deys and Lillee was one of them.

Mcgrath is way way ahead of Lillee, it is not even a contest........ Anyway this is the last Mcgrath vs Lillee post I will make this thread has diverted enough....

 

[Romali_rotti]

What does Paaji mean exactly?

big brother

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

big brother

Thanks.

 

[IndianWillow]

But if that Asian batsman has like 4 games outside Asia (in hopeless green tracks that too with injuries) and is unanimously considered the best of his generation and several ATG batsmen say they grew up wanting to be him...then you won't call him an FTB based on lack of sample set, would you?

Do check out Deniss Lillee threads here.

Tremendous under rating going on.

I am not saying Denniss Lillee should be rated ahead of McGrath but he doesn't get the respect he deserves here.

Only a few players were ever considered as the undisputable best in their hey deys and Lillee was one of them.

There weren't too many iconic pace bowlers during Lillee's peak period. Consider Lillee of the 70s. Who were his nearest rivals? Thomson was fast but he wasn't exceptional. Imran was promising but he was still not a mighty bowler in the 70s. The WI pace bowlers were just making their way in - except for Roberts. Apart from Lillee and Roberts, there were no standout test pace bowlers in the 70s, and Lillee naturally got all the fame. If Lillee had debuted in the 80s, he would be rated below pretty much every WI quick of the 80s (and also below Imran, Hadlee etc) who were deadly every where they played.

 

[JaDed]

Wasim could bowl well in the best of Phattas and Mr.Agression was neutralized on the same pitches and is considered ATG more like Sehwag tbh great in India and Pakistan almost sad everywhere else.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

Kapil didn't miss a test match due to fitness issues - if it wasn't for the stupid BCCI which sidelined him for a test match due to ego related reasons, would have been the first international cricketer to have played 100 tests without a break.

Not to forget his WC win as a 24 yr old captain (ahead of all his contemporary all rounders) with a team that was a practical minnow and his world record 175 no with a strike rate that would be on par with current t20 strike rates.

And on the OP - ROFL..

Against???

 

[Junaids]

There weren't too many iconic pace bowlers during Lillee's peak period. Consider Lillee of the 70s. Who were his nearest rivals? Thomson was fast but he wasn't exceptional. Imran was promising but he was still not a mighty bowler in the 70s. The WI pace bowlers were just making their way in - except for Roberts. Apart from Lillee and Roberts, there were no standout test pace bowlers in the 70s, and Lillee naturally got all the fame. If Lillee had debuted in the 80s, he would be rated below pretty much every WI quick of the 80s (and also below Imran, Hadlee etc) who were deadly every where they played.

No, you're wrong there.

Imran Khan went to Lillee during World Series Cricket for advice. Imran could bowl a big booming inswinger, but he just couldn't move it away from he right-hander. Sarfraz Nawaz had been no help to him.

Lillee taught Imran how to bowl a leg-cutter with the same action which would pitch on off-stump and swerve away to the slips. He basically turned him into a great fast bowler. The same thing happened with Malcolm Marshall.

In fact, Marshall was the only West Indian quick who ever developed the command of movement in the air and off the pitch that Lillee did. All the rest relied upon pace (Roberts, Holding) or accuracy (Ambrose, Garner) or movement in one direction only (Bishop).