Tim Bresnan: The new Kapil Dev?

[Stallion__]

There weren't too many iconic pace bowlers during Lillee's peak period. Consider Lillee of the 70s. Who were his nearest rivals? Thomson was fast but he wasn't exceptional. Imran was promising but he was still not a mighty bowler in the 70s. The WI pace bowlers were just making their way in - except for Roberts. Apart from Lillee and Roberts, there were no standout test pace bowlers in the 70s, and Lillee naturally got all the fame. If Lillee had debuted in the 80s, he would be rated below pretty much every WI quick of the 80s (and also below Imran, Hadlee etc) who were deadly every where they played.

Lillee being the lone iconic pacer in 70s in itself is an achievement. That was the time when fast bowling was dying. There weren't many pacers of highest quality since Trueman. Lillee somewhat revived that art and inspired generation of fast bowlers.

To achieve such standards when there weren't many iconic pacers during his childhood to get inspiration or mentorship from was remarkable.

Had there been no Lillee, we probably wouldn't have seen similar fast bowling standards during 80's as we see now.

 

[IndianWillow]

I don't think that anyone seriously questions Kapil Dev's batting ability. I compared him to Shane Watson - who has batted right at the top of the Aussie order.

I think that the disagreement is about his bowling ability. I think that he was in the Southee/Watson/Kallis class which was just exceptionally quick for an Indian, so he bowled a huge number of overs and took a huge number of quite expensive wickets.

But many other people clearly think that as a bowler he was better than I think he was.

But you are ignoring the context. Pace bowlers like to hunt in packs and are more successful when they have good support at the other end. And this factor becomes more important when you are playing 70% of your matches on unfriendly surfaces. Who exactly was Kapil's reliable support bowler and how many matches they supported Kapil well? Can you answer?

Take it from me - Wasim and Waqar without each other would not be the same bowlers; McGrath without Warne/Gillespie would not be the same; the WI quicks would not be same if they were not part of the same team; A pace bowler's effectiveness is dramatically reduced if they get poor support at the other end. A good pacer without good support is like a leaky pot, it doesn't matter how much water you fill in, it will he half empty most of the time.

 

[Junaids]

Lillee being the lone iconic pacer in 70s in itself is an achievement. That was the time when fast bowling was dying. There weren't many pacers of highest quality since Trueman. Lillee somewhat revived that art and inspired generation of fast bowlers.

To achieve such standards when there weren't many iconic pacers during his childhood to get inspiration or mentorship from was remarkable.

Had there been no Lillee, we probably wouldn't have seen similar fast bowling standards during 80's as we see now.

I respectfully disagree.

Mike Procter was an absolutely magnificent bowler who averaged 15 with the ball both in his 7 official Tests from 1967-70 and in his Packer Supertests a decade later. His compatriot Vintcent Van Der Bijl was robbed of his own Test career by Apartheid but was basically similar to Ambrose, Garner and McGrath - but a bit better than any of them.

John Snow was a superb fast bowler for England and Andy Roberts emerged in the early-1970s and had been joined by Michael Holding by 1975-76.

So there were more top class fast bowlers active in world cricket in the period 1970-76 than there are now.

 

[Junaids]

But you are ignoring the context. Pace bowlers like to hunt in packs and are more successful when they have good support at the other end. And this factor becomes more important when you are playing 70% of your matches on unfriendly surfaces. Who exactly was Kapil's reliable support bowler and how many matches they supported Kapil well? Can you answer?

Take it from me - Wasim and Waqar without each other would not be the same bowlers; McGrath without Warne/Gillespie would not be the same; the WI quicks would not be same if they were not part of the same team; A pace bowler's effectiveness is dramatically reduced if they get poor support at the other end. A good pacer without good support is like a leaky pot, it doesn't matter how much water you fill in, it will he half empty most of the time.

Karsan Ghavri and Madan Lal were as good as Lance Cairns and Ewan Chatfield, which is all that Richard Hadlee had at the other end.

I know what you mean about Wasim and Waqar, but if you think about it, until the emergence of Wasim Akram, Imran Khan had to manage after Sarfraz Nawaz slowed down in around 1980 with just Sikander Bakht, Jalaluddin and Tahir Naqqash. Yet he was incredibly effective against India and Australia in Pakistan in that time period.

 

[IndianWillow]

Karsan Ghavri and Madan Lal were as good as Lance Cairns and Ewan Chatfield, which is all that Richard Hadlee had at the other end.

I know what you mean about Wasim and Waqar, but if you think about it, until the emergence of Wasim Akram, Imran Khan had to manage after Sarfraz Nawaz slowed down in around 1980 with just Sikander Bakht, Jalaluddin and Tahir Naqqash. Yet he was incredibly effective against India and Australia in Pakistan in that time period.

Lance Cairns and Chatfield averaged 32 while Madanlal averaged 40. You think these two are equal support bowlers? Ghavri was somewhat better than Madanlal but he played with Kapil when Kapil was still a young bowler. And Ghavri averaged nearly 40 away from India (and 45 in matches he played with Kapil) - he was pretty useless as a support bowler outside India.

And Hadlee played in NZ, which wasn't as flat or spin friendly like Indian tracks. Yeah, Imran was really good and didn't enjoy exceptionally good support for some part of his career.

Anyway, these are still exceptions to the rule. Pace bowlers enjoy more success when they have good support bowlers. When you have the likes of Madanlal (who averages 40 in tests) supporting you, you are going to find it pretty tough as the main bowler of your side.

 

[Stallion__]

I respectfully disagree.

Mike Procter was an absolutely magnificent bowler who averaged 15 with the ball both in his 7 official Tests from 1967-70 and in his Packer Supertests a decade later. His compatriot Vintcent Van Der Bijl was robbed of his own Test career by Apartheid but was basically similar to Ambrose, Garner and McGrath - but a bit better than any of them.

John Snow was a superb fast bowler for England and Andy Roberts emerged in the early-1970s and had been joined by Michael Holding by 1975-76.

So there were more top class fast bowlers active in world cricket in the period 1970-76 than there are now.

There were few in 60s, adding Adcock, McKenzie and Hall in the list.

But they weren't to Lillee what Lillee was to Imran, Hadlee and Marshall.

For whatever reason, Procter and Bijli didn't play much. Holding developed in late 70s while Roberts was the most closest compatriot of Lillee.

So overall, the quality wasn't same in 60s and 70s as compared to 80s.

Lloyd said that it was after 75 series loss at the hands of Lillee and Thommo that he got motivated and searched about having pace attack of his own to challenge other teams.

My point is that had there been no Lillee, would we have witnessed the same rampaging WI quartet, that ferocious Imran and formidable Hadlee in 80s? I doubt it.

 

[dani2k]

Against???

Why would that matter? The opposition had beaten Australia in that competition and the Indian score was 17/5. Kapil made 175 and the next best score was 17..India made 250 odd and won the game by 30 odd runs.

All of this in a seaming track in England (not the phattas of today)..In fact Kapils score would still be a top 5 score in ODIs in England if you take records today.

And btw how many Pakistanis have scored a 150+ score in England till date? Just curious

 

[IndianWillow]

There were few in 60s, adding Adcock, McKenzie and Hall in the list.

But they weren't to Lillee what Lillee was to Imran, Hadlee and Marshall.

For whatever reason, Procter and Bijli didn't play much. Holding developed in late 70s while Roberts was the most closest compatriot of Lillee.

So overall, the quality wasn't same in 60s and 70s as compared to 80s.

Lloyd said that it was after 75 series loss at the hands of Lillee and Thommo that he got motivated and searched about having pace attack of his own to challenge other teams.

My point is that had there been no Lillee, would we have witnessed the same rampaging WI quartet, that ferocious Imran and formidable Hadlee in 80s? I doubt it.

Yep. Lillee and Roberts were in a real sense the founders of modern fast bowling. Lillee can take all the credit for it. But was really better than the bowlers who learnt bowling from him? That is a different question. During Lillee's period, Australia played 28 tests in Pakistan, WI, India and SL, but Lillee played just 5 of these tests. He was somehow unavailable whenever these tours came up. It is difficult to believe that Lillee did not play so many of these games because he was unavailable. He probably avoided these Asian tours.

The bowlers of the 80s were up against batsmen who had superior equipment and bats. At his peak Lillee was bowling to batsmen who did not even wear helmets. It must have been a frightening experience for a batsman to face 150K bolts without decent protection.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

Why would that matter? The opposition had beaten Australia in that competition and the Indian score was 17/5. Kapil made 175 and the next best score was 17..India made 250 odd and won the game by 30 odd runs.

All of this in a seaming track in England (not the phattas of today)..In fact Kapils score would still be a top 5 score in ODIs in England if you take records today.

And btw how many Pakistanis have scored a 150+ score in England till date? Just curious

The strength of opposition does matter if not then Umar Akmal's 100 ag afgh would have been on of the best wisdom inning. For your last part how many times Pakistan's batting line up collapsed like 17/5 ag minnows in England???

Do not bring Pakistan every where either due or undue.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

There weren't too many iconic pace bowlers during Lillee's peak period. Consider Lillee of the 70s. Who were his nearest rivals? Thomson was fast but he wasn't exceptional. Imran was promising but he was still not a mighty bowler in the 70s. The WI pace bowlers were just making their way in - except for Roberts. Apart from Lillee and Roberts, there were no standout test pace bowlers in the 70s, and Lillee naturally got all the fame. If Lillee had debuted in the 80s, he would be rated below pretty much every WI quick of the 80s (and also below Imran, Hadlee etc) who were deadly every where they played.

And Lillee would have got opportunity to play in batting friendly tracks away from home and we would have known where he stands.

 

[dani2k]

So...looking at all these posts, Kapils career in a nutshell

- Makes international debut at the age of 19 as a bowler
- Scores the then fastest record of fifies scored by an Indian (33 balls) : age 19 year
- Scores his first international century against the #1 ranked team : age 20 years
- Takes his first test fifer against England in England : aged 23
- Scores the fastest hundred against the best bowlers of the best team of the era in their back yard: aged 24
- Scores the world record 175 : aged 24 which
- Leads his team to a world cup win emulating all his contemporary and supposedly greater allrounders ( a couple of who never won it in their time and their teams are yet to win it) : aged 24
- Never missed a test match due to fitness reasons
- Held the world record for the most # of test wickets

Looks like a champion all round cricketer who was good in all formats of the game to me

 

[dani2k]

And btw does the new Kapil Dev even bothers a comparison ?

 

[dani2k]

The strength of opposition does matter if not then Umar Akmal's 100 ag afgh would have been on of the best wisdom inning. For your last part how many times Pakistan's batting line up collapsed like 17/5 ag minnows in England???

Do not bring Pakistan every where either due or undue.

Ok...What was the strength of the opposition when Anwar scored his world record and what were the batting conditions? There is a difference between scoring a hundred in a seaming track and a batting paradise.

 

[dani2k]

I think the best part of Kapil apart from his world cup win was that he held a world record for batting and bowling at different parts of his career (across formats).

I don't think apart from Hadlee any of the other all rounders come close.

 

[Stallion__]

If Lillee had debuted in the 80s, he would be rated below pretty much every WI quick of the 80s (and also below Imran, Hadlee etc) who were deadly every where they played.

Look at it that way.

Had Lillee debuted in 80s, would WI quicks, Imran and Hadlee had been as good during that period as they were when Lillee debuted in 1971?

As you acknowledged, that Lillee was the pioneer of modern fast bowling, so if he had debuted in 80s, there would have been no pioneer of pace bowling in 70s, and Lillee might have to compete with lesser versions of fast bowlers of 80s.

As it stands currently, I don't consider Lillee better than Marshall or McGrath, but we need to take all such things in account.

 

[Bullet Drive]

PSL will have the new Kapil Dev. Lucky us!!!!

 

[junaid.ahmed]

Ok...What was the strength of the opposition when Anwar scored his world record and what were the batting conditions? There is a difference between scoring a hundred in a seaming track and a batting paradise.

You are comparing an apple with banana, a team who hasnt played a single test match comparing to the team who has played around 50 years of test cricket
Kumble
Prassad
Kuruvilla

Kumble is still hold the record of most wickets from india
Prassad, if not the best but still one of the best indian fast/medium fast bowlers
While kuruvilla was also talented but under used or mis used by your management, if there would have been a good bowling coach he could have played 10 years.

Secondly conditions, let me say those were the most difficult conditions for any batsmen 47c temperature & in the India against the India & infront of typical one sided indian crowd, (though changed in later part of inning).

 

[dani2k]

You are comparing an apple with banana, a team who hasnt played a single test match comparing to the team who has played around 50 years of test cricket
Kumble
Prassad
Kuruvilla

Kumble is still hold the record of most wickets from india
Prassad, if not the best but still one of the best indian fast/medium fast bowlers
While kuruvilla was also talented but under used or mis used by your management, if there would have been a good bowling coach he could have played 10 years.

Secondly conditions, let me say those were the most difficult conditions for any batsmen 47c temperature & in the India against the India & infront of typical one sided indian crowd, (though changed in later part of inning).

The 83 world cup was a bowlers world cup. India chased 214 in the SF and defended 183 in the final. 260+ scores were mostly unheard of. Scoring 175 out of the total of 250 is a bigger achievement on a seaming track from a position of 17/5. Compare that to 194 on a batting beauty with no seam and swing and the likes of Prasad and Kuruvilla (Prasad close to the best Indian bowlsers?! ROFL)

 

[IndianWillow]

The 83 world cup was a bowlers world cup. India chased 214 in the SF and defended 183 in the final. 260+ scores were mostly unheard of. Scoring 175 out of the total of 250 is a bigger achievement on a seaming track from a position of 17/5. Compare that to 194 on a batting beauty with no seam and swing and the likes of Prasad and Kuruvilla (Prasad close to the best Indian bowlsers?! ROFL)

WC 83 had some big scores too, but it was generally tough on batsmen. Kapil's knock was very important because a loss to Zimbabwe would have knocked India out of the WC. At 5/17 India was well on course towards early exit from the tournament, but one man had a different idea.

Kapil played a restrained knock that day. Normally Kapil would start attacking immediately but against Zimbabwe he batted cautiously as the wicket started easing out. He built partnerships that allowed India to cross 100. But even at the 40th over mark India was in deep peril - they were some 8/140 and looked like getting kicked out of the WC. It was at this point that Kapil showed his real class - now that he was well set, he plundered the bowling and took the score to 266 - he made 100 runs out of the last 125 runs made by India. Only Viv Richards had the ability to play this kind of brutal innings back then.

 

[Robert]

If I were a Pakistani, let alone a one-eyed Pakistani, wouldn't I be arguing that Dennis Lillee failed in Pakistan due to the tremendous Pakistan team? Whereas I've actually stated clearly that Pakistan was terrified so they prepared dead tracks to neutralise him!

Good points well made.

 

[Robert]

England are set for the future - Bresnan (Kapil Paaji), Woakes (Imran), Stokes (Botham). Now if they can find a Hadlee as well, it would be great.

Broad. About the same pace, current world #2, bowls right, bats left

 

[IndianWillow]

If I were a Pakistani, let alone a one-eyed Pakistani, wouldn't I be arguing that Dennis Lillee failed in Pakistan due to the tremendous Pakistan team? Whereas I've actually stated clearly that Pakistan was terrified so they prepared dead tracks to neutralise him!

You are of Pakistani origin, but you are an Englishman who migrated to Australia, right? Then it is easy see why you might not support Pakistan every time, but nevertheless have a soft corner for Pakistan.

 

[Junaids]

No [MENTION=50394]IndianWillow[/MENTION], my only Pakistan link is that my Dad once lived in Dacca. No Pakistani blood at all!

 

[Bhaijaan]

So...looking at all these posts, Kapils career in a nutshell

- Makes international debut at the age of 19 as a bowler
- Scores the then fastest record of fifies scored by an Indian (33 balls) : age 19 year
- Scores his first international century against the #1 ranked team : age 20 years
- Takes his first test fifer against England in England : aged 23
- Scores the fastest hundred against the best bowlers of the best team of the era in their back yard: aged 24
- Scores the world record 175 : aged 24 which
- Leads his team to a world cup win emulating all his contemporary and supposedly greater allrounders ( a couple of who never won it in their time and their teams are yet to win it) : aged 24
- Never missed a test match due to fitness reasons
- Held the world record for the most # of test wickets

Looks like a champion all round cricketer who was good in all formats of the game to me

Absolute champion.

You don't become ICC hall of famers and get acknowledged as the greatest Indian cricketer of the 20th century for not doing great things in your career.

 

[Robert]

During Lillee's period, Australia played 28 tests in Pakistan, WI, India and SL, but Lillee played just 5 of these tests. He was somehow unavailable whenever these tours came up. It is difficult to believe that Lillee did not play so many of these games because he was unavailable. He probably avoided these Asian tours.

Well, eleven of those 28 were when he was contracted to Packer. He went to WI for the Supertests and did well against Fredericks, Greenidge, Rowe, Richards, Kallicharran and Lloyd.

Remember that the man had that awful injury in 1973 which took him out of the game for eighteen months.

He came to Pakistan half-fit and bowled a lot of overs on wickets rigged to nullify him, so this theory that he made himself unavailable does not really hold water.

The bowlers of the 80s were up against batsmen who had superior equipment and bats. At his peak Lillee was bowling to batsmen who did not even wear helmets. It must have been a frightening experience for a batsman to face 150K bolts without decent protection.

Yes, it was.

On the other hand, modern batters are well-armoured but leave gates so wide that Lillee would be clean-bowling them almost at will. I think his strike rate would be like that of Steyn.

 

[Vayuu]

To be honest the amount of ridicule kapil gets is astonishing,he was a champion allrounder, who had the ability to change game with both bat and ball, he was worlds leading allrounder for 10 years in odi's, that is some achievement always saved his best against the best, the world cricket would kill for a allrounder like this right now.

 

[Indian_Supporter]

To be honest the amount of ridicule kapil gets is astonishing,he was a champion allrounder, who had the ability to change game with both bat and ball, he was worlds leading allrounder for 10 years in odi's, that is some achievement always saved his best against the best, the world cricket would kill for a allrounder like this right now.

ODI's are not real cricket and mostly played by players with rubbish techniques aparently
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

 

[Junaids]

ODI's are not real cricket and mostly played by players with rubbish techniques aparently
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

No, not at all.

Kapil Dev played proper ODIs with a red ball and proper pitches and a slip cordon.

I totally respect his record.

 

[Bilal7]

Some embarrassing posts here by some of Kapil's fans. His longevity was fantastic, he trumped all of his contemporaries as far as that is concerned but in terms of quality, he was nothing too special. I can understand why he's so highly rated in India, however, he was their first decent pace bowler and inspired guys like Zaheer.

 

[Sachin136]

Both sides are getting many things wrong here. Kapil was not a bowling or a batting ATG. Anyone who says otherwise is uninformed. However out of the 4 prominent all-rounders in his time (who played a good amount of international cricket), his batting was the second best or maybe on par with Botham. In terms of bowling he was obviously far behind Imran and Hadlee as well.

But he most definitely wasn't as good as a Shaun Marsh with the bat or Southee with the ball (as some like [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] claim here).

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kapil was not a bowling or a batting ATG.

No one said he was.


his batting was the second best or maybe on par with Botham. In terms of bowling he was obviously far behind Imran and Hadlee as well

lol Botham, he was walking wicket vs the WI, they terrorized him to no limits, check his batting record vs WI. Dev was the best batsmen out of the allrounders, his 100 at over a 100 strike rate in WI vs their best bowlers is testament to this.

.

Bold..

 

[Junaids]

Both sides are getting many things wrong here. Kapil was not a bowling or a batting ATG. Anyone who says otherwise is uninformed. However out of the 4 prominent all-rounders in his time (who played a good amount of international cricket), his batting was the second best or maybe on par with Botham. In terms of bowling he was obviously far behind Imran and Hadlee as well.

But he most definitely wasn't as good as a Shaun Marsh with the bat or Southee with the ball (as some like [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] claim here).

I think that you're being harsh on Kapil Dev.

I think that he was a better batsman than Shaun Marsh, roughly as good as Shane Watson. He wasn't as good a batsman as Ian Botham or Imran Khan or Mike Procter or Clive Rice, but he was better than Richard Hadlee. So batting-wise he was the fifth best out of six great all-rounders during his career.

Bowling-wise, he never reached the heights that Imran, Hadlee, Procter and Botham scaled at their peak. He didn't even get close. But he was more consistent than any of them apart from Hadlee.

I always think of Kapil Dev as a genuine ATG all-rounder, but one who wasn't a particularly exceptional Test batsman or bowler.

Or look at it this way.

There was no point at which he would have displaced Imran from the Pakistan team.

He would not have displaced Botham from the England team between 1977 and 1982, but he would have from 1982 onwards.

He would not have displaced Mike Procter or Clive Rice from the South African team because they were both better than Kapil Dev - Procter by a wide margin, Rice more narrowly.

He would not have displaced Richard Hadlee from the New Zealand team, but he probably would have made the team as a number 6 who bowled, with Hadlee down below Ian Smith or Warren Lees at number 8.

 

[Chrish]

He was a great servant of his country.. But no, certainly not in the league of Imran and Hadlee

 

[Rightarmfast]

You are comparing an apple with banana, a team who hasnt played a single test match comparing to the team who has played around 50 years of test cricket
Kumble
Prassad
Kuruvilla

Kumble is still hold the record of most wickets from india
Prassad, if not the best but still one of the best indian fast/medium fast bowlers
While kuruvilla was also talented but under used or mis used by your management, if there would have been a good bowling coach he could have played 10 years.

Secondly conditions, let me say those were the most difficult conditions for any batsmen 47c temperature & in the India against the India & infront of typical one sided indian crowd, (though changed in later part of inning).

Lolz.. just one of those awkward moments when a Pakistani has to support an Indian bowler to prove his point

 

[Rightarmfast]

Here's my 2 pence.

Its agreed that Kapil wasn't a great bowler like Imran and Hadlee. But one must also agree that Imran didnt have the kind of dearth of decent medim / fast medium bowling partners from the other end, like Kapil had for majority part of his career. Even Sikander Bakht or Sarfawaz were no push overs. Atleast much better than the kind of bowling partners Kapil had. And that does matter!

Without even coming to records, I wouldn't be so sure of Botham being better than Kapil. The reasons are plenty and its been discussed amply on the forum.
As a batsman, I think Kapil was better than the others.

As it is being projected on this forum, Kapil was no trundler or push over. He was an all time great all rounder and a good bowler.
Just because he happens to be an India, do not pass biased comments.

 

[Vayuu]

Here's my 2 pence.

Its agreed that Kapil wasn't a great bowler like Imran and Hadlee. But one must also agree that Imran didnt have the kind of dearth of decent medim / fast medium bowling partners from the other end, like Kapil had for majority part of his career. Even Sikander Bakht or Sarfawaz were no push overs. Atleast much better than the kind of bowling partners Kapil had. And that does matter!

Without even coming to records, I wouldn't be so sure of Botham being better than Kapil. The reasons are plenty and its been discussed amply on the forum.
As a batsman, I think Kapil was better than the others.

As it is being projected on this forum, Kapil was no trundler or push over. He was an all time great all rounder and a good bowler.
Just because he happens to be an India, do not pass biased comments.

Absolutely, this, finally someone with a sense.

 

[IndianWillow]

Here's my 2 pence.

Its agreed that Kapil wasn't a great bowler like Imran and Hadlee. But one must also agree that Imran didnt have the kind of dearth of decent medim / fast medium bowling partners from the other end, like Kapil had for majority part of his career. Even Sikander Bakht or Sarfawaz were no push overs. Atleast much better than the kind of bowling partners Kapil had. And that does matter!

Without even coming to records, I wouldn't be so sure of Botham being better than Kapil. The reasons are plenty and its been discussed amply on the forum.
As a batsman, I think Kapil was better than the others.

As it is being projected on this forum, Kapil was no trundler or push over. He was an all time great all rounder and a good bowler.
Just because he happens to be an India, do not pass biased comments.

That makes a lot of sense. I think Kapil is regarded very highly in India more for his ODI exploits, rather than test exploits. Kapil is a very good test bowler and a good test batsman but not ATG in either category, but he is an ATG test all rounder. In ODIs he is a notch above his test standards, and was very good in both bowling and batting, and is one of the best ODI all rounders ever. Kapil was #1 in ICC ODI all rounder rankings for a very long duration during the fiercely competitive era for all rounders. Across both test and ODI formats, Kapil is definitely one of the top all rounders.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

Lolz.. just one of those awkward moments when a Pakistani has to support an Indian bowler to prove his point

Bcz an indian was trying to discredit Pakistan Batsman otherwise garbage will remain garbage in the end.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

The 83 world cup was a bowlers world cup. India chased 214 in the SF and defended 183 in the final. 260+ scores were mostly unheard of. Scoring 175 out of the total of 250 is a bigger achievement on a seaming track from a position of 17/5. Compare that to 194 on a batting beauty with no seam and swing and the likes of Prasad and Kuruvilla (Prasad close to the best Indian bowlsers?! ROFL)

John Traicos was their most experienced player who only managed to play 27 ODIs with averaging horribly around 52 with the ball. Do you think that prassad or kumble were John's caliber bowlers? Anayway if you are happy with the performance against the team who had played the WC for fun then nothing can be said further.

 

[Vayuu]

John Traicos was their most experienced player who only managed to play 27 ODIs with averaging horribly around 52 with the ball. Do you think that prassad or kumble were John's caliber bowlers? Anayway if you are happy with the performance against the team who had played the WC for fun then nothing can be said further.

That Zimbabwe team beat Australia in one of the match in case you forgot and was playing good cricket had india on the mat at 17/5 and then 140/8 it took an unbelievable inning of 175 and that too at unbelievable strike rate to bail out india, the only other innings of such calibre who equals or out do it,is viv's 189 against England,not to forget this innings was played in England and not at patta like Chennai, even india managed 290 odd in that match ,so no, the knock kapil played was a far far better than Saeed anwar knock.

 

[Vayuu]

And kapil was a better bat than imran ,though wasn't as consistent. A lot of not outs to imran's credit.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

That Zimbabwe team beat Australia in one of the match in case you forgot and was playing good cricket had india on the mat at 17/5 and then 140/8 it took an unbelievable inning of 175 and that too at unbelievable strike rate to bail out india, the only other innings of such calibre who equals or out do it,is viv's 189 against England,not to forget this innings was played in England and not at patta like Chennai, even india managed 290 odd in that match ,so no, the knock kapil played was a far far better than Saeed anwar knock.

Have an eye on the avgs of Zimbabwe bowlers secondly if india managed to score 290 in that match then they had sachin saruv dravid azhar jadeja ag the second class Pakistani attack, tell me those batsmen were trundlers who cant score 290 collectively? 175 runs on around 140 balls is unbelievable? are you sure????

 

[junaid.ahmed]

And kapil was a better bat than imran ,though wasn't as consistent. A lot of not outs to imran's credit.

hahaha he was better than Don so who were Imran or Botham.

 

[Vayuu]

Have an eye on the avgs of Zimbabwe bowlers secondly if india managed to score 290 in that match then they had sachin saruv dravid azhar jadeja ag the second class Pakistani attack, tell me those batsmen were trundlers who cant score 290 collectively? 175 runs on around 140 balls is unbelievable? are you sure????

The pitch in England was a bowler paradise, so yes u are looking at avg's and not conditions and not looking at the fact that India was down and out at 140/8, even a second string pak attack was strong in comparison of first preferred india attack and yes 175 runs at 140 balls at that time is unbelievable and exceptional, considering the fact that at that time a strike rate of mid 60's to mid 70's was a good strike rate.

 

[Vayuu]

hahaha he was better than Don so who were Imran or Botham.

No I wasn't talking about don, but yes he was certainly better than imran and that's for sure, the kind of impact him and Botham made with the bat, haven't seen imran doing that .

 

[Rightarmfast]

hahaha he was better than Don so who were Imran or Botham.

I wasn't going to stretch it so far, but since you insist, we take it graciously with open arms that Kapil was a better bat than Don, Imran and Botham But only since you are insisting

 

[junaid.ahmed]

The pitch in England was a bowler paradise, so yes u are looking at avg's and not conditions and not looking at the fact that India was down and out at 140/8, even a second string pak attack was strong in comparison of first preferred india attack and yes 175 runs at 140 balls at that time is unbelievable and exceptional, considering the fact that at that time a strike rate of mid 60's to mid 70's was a good strike rate.

Huh bowler paradise..... Zimbabwe replied with 235 runs & india hardly won by 30 runs. For the conditions these are assumptions that England had always produced bowling paradises those days. After an year on almost same conditions against the much much better bowling unit Viven scored 189* so its not like that what you are propagating that kapil scored those 175 in minefield.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

I wasn't going to stretch it so far, but since you insist, we take it graciously with open arms that Kapil was a better bat than Don, Imran and Botham But only since you are insisting

sorry I forget to mentioned 'only in india' in my comment.

 

[Rightarmfast]

sorry I forget to mentioned 'only in india' in my comment.

Apology accepted

 

[IndianWillow]

The first part of Kapil's knock against Zimbabwe was played under conditions that were very hostile. An ODI side does not get reduced to 5/17 in easy batting conditions. The second half of Kapil's knock was made under easy batting conditions, but India was playing under intense pressure throughout the match due to the early collapse. Later, the pitch eased out and when Zimbabwe came out to bat, batting was much easier but Zimboks lacked the experience to beat India. Zimbabwe was not a weak bowling side back then - they were a weak batting side but their bowling was competitive. On their day their bowlers could be very dangerous though the bowlers lacked consistency and could easily choke.

 

[dani2k]

The first part of Kapil's knock against Zimbabwe was played under conditions that were very hostile. An ODI side does not get reduced to 5/17 in easy batting conditions. The second half of Kapil's knock was made under easy batting conditions, but India was playing under intense pressure throughout the match due to the early collapse. Later, the pitch eased out and when Zimbabwe came out to bat, batting was much easier but Zimboks lacked the experience to beat India. Zimbabwe was not a weak bowling side back then - they were a weak batting side but their bowling was competitive. On their day their bowlers could be very dangerous though the bowlers lacked consistency and could easily choke.

Just for the sake of current day cricket fans we can compare Kapils innings to MSDs hundred against Pakistan in the first ODI in Chennai in 2013. India were around 30/5 IIRC when Dhoni started his innings - conditions were very tough to bat (due to rains and India were asked to bat) and he scrapped initially before finishing with a run a ball hundred. In Kapils case he was playing the red ball in England and so the ball would have swung more and he finished with a bigger hundred at a faster rate.

Not to forget the difference between a bilateral ODI and a WC game which if lost would mean elimination from the cup which was eventually won.

 

[Vayuu]

Huh bowler paradise..... Zimbabwe replied with 235 runs & india hardly won by 30 runs. For the conditions these are assumptions that England had always produced bowling paradises those days. After an year on almost same conditions against the much much better bowling unit Viven scored 189* so its not like that what you are propagating that kapil scored those 175 in minefield.

Yeah bowler paradise and I told you his innings was only bettered by Richards ,so it's not like I haven't mentioned it already and even if it was batting friendly conditions as u claim, it's still much difficult than Chennai at a much bigger stage and much more pressure situation and yes kapil was a better bat than imran whether you like it or not.

 

[IndianWillow]

Just for the sake of current day cricket fans we can compare Kapils innings to MSDs hundred against Pakistan in the first ODI in Chennai in 2013. India were around 30/5 IIRC when Dhoni started his innings - conditions were very tough to bat (due to rains and India were asked to bat) and he scrapped initially before finishing with a run a ball hundred. In Kapils case he was playing the red ball in England and so the ball would have swung more and he finished with a bigger hundred at a faster rate.

Not to forget the difference between a bilateral ODI and a WC game which if lost would mean elimination from the cup which was eventually won.

Yeah, it is comparable to Dhoni's knock. But the way Kapil scored those runs was far ahead of his times. 175*(138) would be considered a brutal match winning hundred even by today's standards. In 1983 it was equal to a triple hundred today (way superior to the double tons made by Guptill and Rohit recently), where most teams played sedately for the first 35 overs before accelerating towards the end. Only IVA Richards and Kapil had the ability to play that knock during that era, regardless of who the opposition was.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

Yeah bowler paradise and I told you his innings was only bettered by Richards ,so it's not like I haven't mentioned it already and even if it was batting friendly conditions as u claim, it's still much difficult than Chennai at a much bigger stage and much more pressure situation and yes kapil was a better bat than imran whether you like it or not.

Opposition opposition opposition sir jee why dnt you understand the contribution of opposition in a cricket. Imran Wasim Waqar were all threatening on dusts & phattas throughout their careers so its mean that opposition bowling is the thing which impact much on the match versus an individual inning.

& for chennai & indian bowlers, tell me what is the difference b/w todays, 97 & prior to 97 in indian bowling strength??

 

[Vayuu]

Opposition opposition opposition sir jee why dnt you understand the contribution of opposition in a cricket. Imran Wasim Waqar were all threatening on dusts & phattas throughout their careers so its mean that opposition bowling is the thing which impact much on the match versus an individual inning.

& for chennai & indian bowlers, tell me what is the difference b/w todays, 97 & prior to 97 in indian bowling strength??

Then kapil performed well against Australia and west indies sir jee, also he performed well on indian patta 's too unlike imran who always had bakht and kadir earlier and wasim and waqar later, kapil didn't had that luxury.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

Then kapil performed well against Australia and west indies sir jee, also he performed well on indian patta 's too unlike imran who always had bakht and kadir earlier and wasim and waqar later, kapil didn't had that luxury.

What is the connection b/w kapil's 175 & Saeed 194 with kapil's performances ag Aus & WI?

Your second point has very less worth actually. Kapil enjoyed the solo career which enhance the chances of taking wickets or it can be said that kapil get the big chunk bcz there was no other capable on the second end to took wickets even there was prominent spinner in the team who could have share the cake.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

^no prominent spinner

 

[Vayuu]

^no prominent spinner

Or you can also say that he had to bear the weight of whole indian lineup.

 

[IndianWillow]

What is the connection b/w kapil's 175 & Saeed 194 with kapil's performances ag Aus & WI?

Your second point has very less worth actually. Kapil enjoyed the solo career which enhance the chances of taking wickets or it can be said that kapil get the big chunk bcz there was no other capable on the second end to took wickets even there was prominent spinner in the team who could have share the cake.

Yes it did, which is why Dev took 431 test wickets. When your team has only one good bowler, he tends to get more wickets. But this comes at a cost - because pressure is not maintained at both ends during bowling, batsmen settle down easily and go on to make big scores and this affects the average and strike rate of all bowlers. When you have several good bowlers bowling in tandem, each of them may not get a lot of wickets, but they will usually end up with better averages and strike rates because batsmen are under pressure all the time, and are not allowed to settle down and make big scores. If Kapil had a good support pace bowler during his prime, he would have probably finished with only 350 test wickets but he would have probably finished his career with a superior bowling average and strike rate. It is an issue of quantity versus quality.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

Yes it did, which is why Dev took 431 test wickets. When your team has only one good bowler, he tends to get more wickets. But this comes at a cost - because pressure is not maintained at both ends during bowling, batsmen settle down easily and go on to make big scores and this affects the average and strike rate of all bowlers. When you have several good bowlers bowling in tandem, each of them may not get a lot of wickets, but they will usually end up with better averages and strike rates because batsmen are under pressure all the time, and are not allowed to settle down and make big scores. If Kapil had a good support pace bowler during his prime, he would have probably finished with only 350 test wickets but he would have probably finished his career with a superior bowling average and strike rate. It is an issue of quantity versus quality.

Look Kapil should have retired right after 87 WC, post 87 his performance damaged his own record & career quality though tally wickets risen but BCCI & he himself was obsessed with highest wickets record.

 

[Junaids]

Then kapil performed well against Australia and west indies sir jee, also he performed well on indian patta 's too unlike imran who always had bakht and kadir earlier and wasim and waqar later, kapil didn't had that luxury.

But Australia was rubbish during Kapil Dev's career.

 

[dani2k]

But Australia was rubbish during Kapil Dev's career.

Not entirely true...After AB became the captain in the mid 80s they were very competitive. Case in point the test series with the Madras tied test , Ashes win in England, WC win in 87. (Kapil retired in 93 btw)

Kapil performed well against Australia in Aus in the 92 series. His 400th wicket came in that series and IIRC he got a fifer as well. He had a back to the wall century in the tied test match in 86 as well.

 

[Junaids]

Not entirely true...After AB became the captain in the mid 80s they were very competitive. Case in point the test series with the Madras tied test , Ashes win in England, WC win in 87. (Kapil retired in 93 btw)

Kapil performed well against Australia in Aus in the 92 series. His 400th wicket came in that series and IIRC he got a fifer as well. He had a back to the wall century in the tied test match in 86 as well.

I respectfully disagree.

Australia got smashed by New Zealand at home in 85-86 and by England at home in 86-87 and then by West Indies at home in 88-89.

The first time they became competitive was in England in 1989, but that was because terrible selection policies and the sacking of Mike Gatting had destabilised England and the team was more interested in the offer of Apartheid money to tour South Africa than being cohesive.

 

[dani2k]

^^ What about Australia's tour to India in 86 and their WC win in 87?

 

[Robert]

I respectfully disagree.

Australia got smashed by New Zealand at home in 85-86 and by England at home in 86-87 and then by West Indies at home in 88-89.

The first time they became competitive was in England in 1989, but that was because terrible selection policies and the sacking of Mike Gatting had destabilised England and the team was more interested in the offer of Apartheid money to tour South Africa than being cohesive.

Truth. They were missing their own Rebs. They were seriously handicapped in the '85 and '87 Ashes by the loss of Alderman and Rackemann in particular.

 

[Junaids]

^^ What about Australia's tour to India in 86 and their WC win in 87?

What about it?

India were absolutely useless in the 1980s at home in Tests.

They lost to the West Indies at home in 83-84, to England at home in 84-85 and to Pakistan at home in 86-87.

And Australia winning the 1987 World Cup was like Greece winning Euro'2004. A very limited team fluking a win over Pakistan at Lahore, and being lucky enough not to face a great Indian ODI team in the Final because Graham Gooch had swept them to defeat in the semi at Bombay.

 

[Junaids]

Truth. They were missing their own Rebs. They were seriously handicapped in the '85 and '87 Ashes by the loss of Alderman and Rackemann in particular.

That's true, but we could see both at the 1983 World Cup and when the West Indies made Kim Hughes resign in tears in 84-85 that after Chappell, Marsh and Lillee the Aussies were in a real mess.

Terry Alderman was pretty useless after his shoulder injury outside England, because his speed was around 120-125k (75-77 mph).

Big Carl was the opposite: around 140K and great on bouncy pitches but useless outside Australia and South Africa because he was a bit like a slower Patrick Patterson.

 

[Junaids]

You know, [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], it always makes me laugh when youngsters assume that Australia has always been good and always will be.

They were the world's best team from 1974 to mid-1976 and from 1995 to early 2007.

But they were seriously rubbish for most of the 1980s and have lost home Ashes series not just in 86-87 but even in 2010-11.

They played Pakistan in the UAE straight before NZ did last year, and England in England straight after NZ did this summer. And you'd have to be on drugs not to have noticed that NZ drew both series while Australia lost both.

They still have good young bowlers, but their Test batting is a total catastrophe.

I think some youngsters are going to be shocked by the sight of another poor Australian Test team.

 

[dani2k]

What about it?

India were absolutely useless in the 1980s at home in Tests.

They lost to the West Indies at home in 83-84, to England at home in 84-85 and to Pakistan at home in 86-87.

And Australia winning the 1987 World Cup was like Greece winning Euro'2004. A very limited team fluking a win over Pakistan at Lahore, and being lucky enough not to face a great Indian ODI team in the Final because Graham Gooch had swept them to defeat in the semi at Bombay.

India were pretty strong at home in tests in the 80s and all the teams you have mentioned above were the strongest ones these countries had fielded in quite some time. The fact that all three of them are yet to repeat their feats prove it (except for England which defeated a weakened India in 2013 - 30 yrs later).

That Australia drew a series they were heavy underdogs in proves that they were pretty good team with hard nosed individuals (who can forget the double century that Dean Jones scored under humid conditions ending up in a hospital due to lost fluids). They later proved that their test performance was not a flash in the pan by winning the WC next year beating huge favorites India (defending champ) and co-hosts Pakistan both playing at their homes with their 12th men - crowd support.

They were competitive without a doubt.

 

[IndianWillow]

You know, [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], it always makes me laugh when youngsters assume that Australia has always been good and always will be.

They were the world's best team from 1974 to mid-1976 and from 1995 to early 2007.

But they were seriously rubbish for most of the 1980s and have lost home Ashes series not just in 86-87 but even in 2010-11.

They played Pakistan in the UAE straight before NZ did last year, and England in England straight after NZ did this summer. And you'd have to be on drugs not to have noticed that NZ drew both series while Australia lost both.

They still have good young bowlers, but their Test batting is a total catastrophe.

I think some youngsters are going to be shocked by the sight of another poor Australian Test team.

Why not check how different bowlers fared in Australia in the 80s? Australia wasn't a great team in the 80s and were poor travellers, but they were still a dominant team at home with a W/L ratio of 1.266. Kapil Dev was comfortably ahead of many big names here inspite of bowling in Australia as a lone wolf.

 

[Robert]

And Australia winning the 1987 World Cup was like Greece winning Euro'2004. A very limited team fluking a win over Pakistan at Lahore, and being lucky enough not to face a great Indian ODI team in the Final because Graham Gooch had swept them to defeat in the semi at Bombay.

Yep, WC87 was weird. Who would have thought that an England lacking Botham and Gower could have got to the Final? Athey, Capel, Pringle - gawd help us all. Or that mediocre Aussie team?

 

[IndianWillow]

Look Kapil should have retired right after 87 WC, post 87 his performance damaged his own record & career quality though tally wickets risen but BCCI & he himself was obsessed with highest wickets record.

In 90 actually. Not 87.

 

[Robert]

My joke thread about Brezzylad has blossomed into a 400-post thing of beauty!

 

[jeetu]

Yep, WC87 was weird. Who would have thought that an England lacking Botham and Gower could have got to the Final? Athey, Capel, Pringle - gawd help us all. Or that mediocre Aussie team?

Unpredictable times those days.
Ind-Pak finalist in B&H Cup (Aus host)
Aus-Eng finalist in 87 WC (Ind-Pak hosts)
To top it off despite having Richards , Marshall etc in ranks, No WI in either.

 

[jeetu]

In 90 actually. Not 87.

Statistically Kapil performed decently from 91-94. He had horrid test year with ball in 1990 where he avg nearly 50.


Tests
In 1991 25.00 bat avg , 25.55 bowl avg
In 1992 29.30 bat avg , 29.44 bowl avg
In 1993 35.50 bat avg , 26.93 bowl avg
In 1994 bat avg 39.00 , 27.55 bowl avg

Contrastingly he got terrible in ODI during that time frame (barring 1991 ODI's where he avg steller 17.80)
In 1991 bat avg 16.87 , bowl avg 17.80
In 1992 bat avg 18.70 , bowl avg 38.75
In 1993 bat avg 14.10 , bowl avg 32.81
In 1994 bat avg 11.40 , bowl avg 54.20

 

[IndianWillow]

Statistically Kapil performed decently from 91-94. He had horrid test year with ball in 1990 where he avg nearly 50.


Tests
In 1991 25.00 bat avg , 25.55 bowl avg
In 1992 29.30 bat avg , 29.44 bowl avg
In 1993 35.50 bat avg , 26.93 bowl avg
In 1994 bat avg 39.00 , 27.55 bowl avg

Contrastingly he got terrible in ODI during that time frame (barring 1991 ODI's where he avg steller 17.80)
In 1991 bat avg 16.87 , bowl avg 17.80
In 1992 bat avg 18.70 , bowl avg 38.75
In 1993 bat avg 14.10 , bowl avg 32.81
In 1994 bat avg 11.40 , bowl avg 54.20

Checkout Kapil's bowling strike rates after 90. Averages are not every thing for a bowler. Kapil's bowling S/R was 80+ for the 90s, that is bad for a pace bowler over a four year period and he shouldn't be playing. Moroever, he got flogged in friendly bowling conditions in England, SA and NZ. In fact, his overseas bowling average and S/R in the 90s were 37 and 93 respectively, he should have surely stopped playing in 90.

 

[Robert]

Statistically Kapil performed decently from 91-94. He had horrid test year with ball in 1990 where he avg nearly 50.

He ran into a rampaging Gooch/Atherton/Smith/Gower/Lamb armed only with those awful balls used in the County system in 1990. Sides were racking up 600 at will as the bowlers were powerless!

 

[Itachi]

Well, eleven of those 28 were when he was contracted to Packer. He went to WI for the Supertests and did well against Fredericks, Greenidge, Rowe, Richards, Kallicharran and Lloyd.

Remember that the man had that awful injury in 1973 which took him out of the game for eighteen months.

He came to Pakistan half-fit and bowled a lot of overs on wickets rigged to nullify him, so this theory that he made himself unavailable does not really hold water.



Yes, it was.

On the other hand, modern batters are well-armoured but leave gates so wide that Lillee would be clean-bowling them almost at will. I think his strike rate would be like that of Steyn.

So Lilly did put money over country.

 

[Robert]

He has taken 6-19 for Yorkshire in the T20!

England recall for the New Kapil!

 

[AlizeeFan]

He wasn't as good a batsman as Ian Botham or Imran Khan or Mike Procter or Clive Rice, but he was better than Richard Hadlee. So batting-wise he was the fifth best out of six great all-rounders during his career.

Kapil

1. 3000 runs in 109 innings in 73 tests
2. 3000 runs in 108 innings in 75 tests


During same time Kapil averaged 42 in West Indies where Imran failed to score even a 50. Overall Kapil scored 2 100s against arguably best bowling of that time.

Imran's batting improved a lot in later stages of his career, but for most part of it (90% of tests), was he better batsman than Kapil?