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Vernon Philander Discussion Thread

A 78-80mph would always struggle in Such conditions even if he is super good, that is what i fear for Bhuveneshwar too, he has to play majority of his cricket in Asia and he will struggle here...

Even Asif struggled in Asian conditions apart from Karachi test which was a green wicket and in Srilanka where he got help from the pitch..

In 2007 against SA (in Pakistan) asif struggled big time to take a wicket
 
Has been unlucky in this test match. Should have had Tharanga. Bowled him clean but the bail did not come off.

But its been a tough year for him personally.
 
Yes, Asif struggled on such pitches too which many people overlook but he was a much better bowler than Philly. Philly doesn't produce magical deliveries like him.
 
There is no comparison between Asif and Philander. Asif could move the ball miles while Philander just gets enough movement and he still has to prove himself in the SC.
 
Mamoon said:
Yes, Asif struggled on such pitches too which many people overlook but he was a much better bowler than Philly. Philly doesn't produce magical deliveries like him.
Click to expand...

Performance counts more than Magical deliveries, Philander is a better bowler than Asif easily on performance
 
hur rizvi said:
Performance counts more than Magical deliveries, Philander is a better bowler than Asif easily on performance
Click to expand...

Performance in SA, where he has played the majority of his tests? Asif has a better away average than Philander and in fact averages better than him in South Africa itself! So Philander is hardly the 'better bowler easily on performance'.
 
talha3 said:
Performance in SA, where he has played the majority of his tests? Asif has a better away average than Philander and in fact averages better than him in South Africa itself! So Philander is hardly the 'better bowler easily on performance'.
Click to expand...

Are you sure Asif has better average compared to Philander in SA??

Kindly present stats to back your claim
 
Asif was in a league of his own. He produced deliveries that can't be replicated because all his dismissals seemed planned. Philander is pretty good but he is a line and length bowler who moves the bowl here and there like Glen McGrath.
 
obviously not very comfy in the subcontinent. the ridiculous 17 avg. has shot up to above 20 as well which is still very good.
 
He needs to work on pitching the ball up. You get wickets on flat pattahs in the sub continent by pitching the ball up and making the batsman play.
 
Kiri said:
He needs to work on pitching the ball up. You get wickets on flat pattahs in the sub continent by pitching the ball up and making the batsman play.
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lol same is said about green english tracks. i guess pitching the ball up gives u the chance to pick up wickets anywhere in the world.
 
He was always going to be tested under these conditions and he hasn't looked as lethal anywhere lethal as he does on greenish tracks..
 
To be fair, SSC is a horrible excuse for a cricket pitch. SURESH RAINA got a debut test ton there.
 
leatherface58 said:
To be fair, SSC is a horrible excuse for a cricket pitch. SURESH RAINA got a debut test ton there.
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Being a kiwi.. You follow Indian cricket very closely.. And it's not just this post I have seen many other informative posts from you as well. Are you associated to India some way?
 
Anfield said:
Being a kiwi.. You follow Indian cricket very closely.. And it's not just this post I have seen many other informative posts from you as well. Are you associated to India some way?
Click to expand...

Actually an Indian family lives next door to me ever since I was a kid. They were avid cricket watchers and told me all kinds of stuff about Indian teams of yesteryears. Plus, my aunt is married to an Indian and she lives in Goa. I have visited her quite a few times. I wouldn't say I have a kinship with Indians but I do tend to follow NZ, Indian and Pakistani(courtesy PP) International cricket more than other nations.
 
leatherface58 said:
Actually an Indian family lives next door to me ever since I was a kid. They were avid cricket watchers and told me all kinds of stuff about Indian teams of yesteryears. Plus, my aunt is married to an Indian and she lives in Goa. I have visited her quite a few times. I wouldn't say I have a kinship with Indians but I do tend to follow NZ, Indian and Pakistani(courtesy PP) International cricket more than other nations.
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Oh cool.

Never knew that.
 
With Philanders pace he was always gonna struggle on roads. But SSC is a soul destroying pitch for any bowler an absolute highway.
 
Philander did pretty decent against us in uae. Any juice or any swing in the pitch, he becomes effective.

Sent from my SGH-T999V using Tapatalk
 
hur rizvi said:
A 78-80mph would always struggle in Such conditions even if he is super good, that is what i fear for Bhuveneshwar too, he has to play majority of his cricket in Asia and he will struggle here...

Even Asif struggled in Asian conditions apart from Karachi test which was a green wicket and in Srilanka where he got help from the pitch..

In 2007 against SA (in Pakistan) asif struggled big time to take a wicket
Click to expand...




You always have to look at the context as well...just looking at stats will not allow you to know that he was coming off the worst injury (elbow) of his career and was not 100% fit when he played in that series. On top of that he played on the worst roads in the world.

Asif was capable of taking 5-6 wickets (in a match) on most wickets even flat ones...but if he was not fully fit, he was gonna struggle just like any other bowler out there
 
Mcgrath never really seemed to struggle anywhere. And he hardly touched 135
 
His average should end up around the 26-28 mark. Which would be fair given his skill-level.
 
Saqs said:
Mcgrath never really seemed to struggle anywhere. And he hardly touched 135
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He was in different class. I think, his ability to consistently put balls on the same spot was phenomenal and that helped him to get wickets everywhere.
 
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The key to getting wickets on flat pitches for test games is to set super attacking fields and even if it means batsman finds boundaries time and time again so be because eventually some of their shots will find the fielder or from behind. You are likely to save around 80-200 runs like that and save more than 10 overs than usual.
 
Buffet said:
He was in different class. I think, his ability to consistently put balls on the same spot was phenomenal and that helped him to get wickets everywhere.
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Vernon can put the ball in the same place all day but he doesn't have the bounce that Mcgrath used to get. Mcgrath could also get the ball to move off the pitch just enough to get edges on almost all tracks.
 
Energetic said:
The key to getting wickets on flat pitches for test games is to set super attacking fields and even if it means batsman finds boundaries time and time again so be because eventually some of their shots will find the fielder or from behind. You are likely to save around 80-200 runs like that and save more than 10 overs than usual.
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That is what Amla was doing. Won't work if your bowlers bowl short and wide with a few full-tosses for variation.
 
Fastandfurious said:
Vernon can put the ball in the same place all day but he doesn't have the bounce that Mcgrath used to get. Mcgrath could also get the ball to move off the pitch just enough to get edges on almost all tracks.
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McGrath was surely more skillful but I think he had better control than Vern as well. I am saying this after seeing Vern on less friendly tracks few times. Actually, when you think about it it makes sense. McGrath ability to get bounce and better skill gave him confidence to keep putting it on the same spot more regularly than Vern. Even in ODI, it was difficult to get hold of McGrath. Very few bad balls.

I may be wrong but that's how I see it.
 
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Mcgrath is a hit the deck bowler but got more revs on the ball than a traditional swing bowler, he gets more bounce even on flat pitches and could exploit even the slightest movement available due to putting a lot of revs and hitting the deck hard. He used to cut over the ball rather than under the ball like traditional swing bowlers which was why he got more revs.
 
Kwremb said:
Mcgrath is a hit the deck bowler but got more revs on the ball than a traditional swing bowler, he gets more bounce even on flat pitches and could exploit even the slightest movement available due to putting a lot of revs and hitting the deck hard. He used to cut over the ball rather than under the ball like traditional swing bowlers which was why he got more revs.
Click to expand...

Agree with comments here.
 
Saqs said:
Mcgrath never really seemed to struggle anywhere. And he hardly touched 135
Click to expand...

My old man tells me that when McGrath first started out he was pushing mid 140s quite regularly

Its been confirmed by pretty much every old enough to remember that I have spoken to
 
Bowling can't be easy if you hit the stumps without reward or getting catches dropped of your bowling.

And was never fair to compare the guy to McGrath in the first place.
 
Convict said:
My old man tells me that when McGrath first started out he was pushing mid 140s quite regularly

Its been confirmed by pretty much every old enough to remember that I have spoken to
Click to expand...

He did. True. But Mcgrath really came into his own and peaked later on. And he hardly touched 135.

Although I guess he had height which Philander doesn't have.
 
Buffet said:
He was in different class. I think, his ability to consistently put balls on the same spot was phenomenal and that helped him to get wickets everywhere.
Click to expand...

+ Height
 
Saqs said:
He did. True. But Mcgrath really came into his own and peaked later on. And he hardly touched 135.

Although I guess he had height which Philander doesn't have.
Click to expand...

McGrath was also a genius.
I never tire of this youtube clip

 
Sunny786 said:
Asif was in a league of his own. He produced deliveries that can't be replicated because all his dismissals seemed planned.
Click to expand...
So were his no balls.

Anfield said:
Being a kiwi.. You follow Indian cricket very closely.. And it's not just this post I have seen many other informative posts from you as well. Are you associated to India some way?
Click to expand...

leatherface58 said:
Actually an Indian family lives next door to me ever since I was a kid. They were avid cricket watchers and told me all kinds of stuff about Indian teams of yesteryears. Plus, my aunt is married to an Indian and she lives in Goa. I have visited her quite a few times. I wouldn't say I have a kinship with Indians but I do tend to follow NZ, Indian and Pakistani(courtesy PP) International cricket more than other nations.
Click to expand...
I could visit NZ every year and sill wouldn't know any record belonging to NZ cricket. Or recognize a kiwi cricketer in a bar.

And you know Suresh Raina's debut century was at SSC because you have an Indian neighbor, an aunt in Goa, and you've been to India.

Sure.

If I had a nickel for every kiwi I've come across on cricket forums who started off as kiwi and gradually turned out to be an Indian living in NZ....

soso_killer said:
Bowling can't be easy if you hit the stumps without reward or getting catches dropped of your bowling.

And was never fair to compare the guy to McGrath in the first place.
Click to expand...

Yet he averaged 17 for a year or so and orchestrated 45, 47 and 49 all out of three test teams. Just goes to show how ridiculous your test wickets are (when not bending over for India) and how overrated this green track bully is. Even with all the ball tampering he can't buy a wicket.
 
Silly Point said:
So were his no balls.




I could visit NZ every year and sill wouldn't know any record belonging to NZ cricket. Or recognize a kiwi cricketer in a bar.

And you know Suresh Raina's debut century was at SSC because you have an Indian neighbor, an aunt in Goa, and you've been to India.

Sure.

If I had a nickel for every kiwi I've come across on cricket forums who started off as kiwi and gradually turned out to be an Indian living in NZ....



Yet he averaged 17 for a year or so and orchestrated 45, 47 and 49 all out of three test teams. Just goes to show how ridiculous your test wickets are (when not bending over for India) and how overrated this green track bully is. Even with all the ball tampering he can't buy a wicket.
Click to expand...

Agreed on all counts
 
Silly Point said:
I could visit NZ every year and sill wouldn't know any record belonging to NZ cricket. Or recognize a kiwi cricketer in a bar.
Sure.

If I had a nickel for every kiwi I've come across on cricket forums who started off as kiwi and gradually turned out to be an Indian living in NZ....
Click to expand...

But you are forgetting some minor details: I am not you. You are not me. You don't know anything about me apart from an image that has been conjured from my posts.

Besides, you think you are the only one who has accused me of being Indian? Here, for ultra-sensitive Pakistani fans, if you are not fawning over their cricketers, you are Indian. Plain and simple. Never mind the fact that I have annoyed Indian fans as well during their horror away performances as well when I got accused of being a Pakistani! So I guess it's a subcontinental issue.
 
leatherface58 said:
But you are forgetting some minor details: I am not you. You are not me. You don't know anything about me apart from an image that has been conjured from my posts.

Besides, you think you are the only one who has accused me of being Indian? Here, for ultra-sensitive Pakistani fans, if you are not fawning over their cricketers, you are Indian. Plain and simple. Never mind the fact that I have annoyed Indian fans as well during their horror away performances as well when I got accused of being a Pakistani! So I guess it's a subcontinental issue.
Click to expand...
So any interesting Jadeja records while we're at it, since your aunt lives in Goa? Don't know a lot of 56 year old kiwis with aunts in Goa to be honest.
 
leatherface58 said:
Who the hell told you I'm 56 years old? Do I sound that wise to you? :)))
Click to expand...
Some old geezer told me that.

From the thread "how did you choose your pp username:
leatherface58 said:
The bad guy from Texas chainsaw massacre is Leatherface. 58 is my actual birth year and I have also made a fake Facebook profile to stalk little boys and girls. Polanski ain't got nuffin' on me. :batman:
Click to expand...
 
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HamzaSaeen said:
I think you mentioned in the username thread that the '58' in the name was your birth year. :yk
Click to expand...

Silly Point said:
Some gold geezer told me that.

From the thread "how did you choose your pp username:
Click to expand...

You could cut the sarcasm in that post with a swiss army knife. Geez you people are gullible. :))

For all I know I could have said I am a 6'5'' male with a rocking hot bod, sexy girlfriend and rich enough to buy Donald Trump.
 
leatherface58 said:
You could cut the sarcasm in that post with a swiss army knife.
Click to expand...
Yet you didn't even remember saying that.

leatherface58 said:
For all I know I could have said I am a 6'5'' male with a rocking hot bod, sexy girlfriend and rich enough to buy Donald Trump.
Click to expand...
Or you could have said that you're a kiwi who knows random Indian records because you have an Indian neighbor and an aunt in Goa.

Game over, bro.
 
Silly Point said:
Yet you didn't even remember saying that.


Or you could have said that you're a kiwi who knows random Indian records because you have an Indian neighbor and an aunt in Goa.

Game over, bro.
Click to expand...

Of course I remember saying that. Geez does your sense of humour rise above butthurt memes or what?

Besides, if you think I am lying, fine. Maybe I am. Maybe I am not. Question is whatcha gonna do?
 
"58 is my actual birth year and I have also made a fake Facebook profile to stalk little boys and girls. Polanski ain't got nuffin' on me" - Leatherface58

He made fake profiles to stalk little boys/girls , lol.

Based on this statement PPers guessed his age, hilarious.
 
Last edited:
Buffet said:
"58 is my actual birth year and I have also made a fake Facebook profile to stalk little boys and girls. Polanski ain't got nuffin' on me" - Leatherface58

He made fake profiles to stalk little boys/girls , lol.

Based on this statement PPers guessed his age, hilarious.
Click to expand...
Thank goodness, he got fixated on my age and not the line after that. Else he would have called the cops on me. :))
 
Silly Point said:
So were his no balls.




I could visit NZ every year and sill wouldn't know any record belonging to NZ cricket. Or recognize a kiwi cricketer in a bar.

And you know Suresh Raina's debut century was at SSC because you have an Indian neighbor, an aunt in Goa, and you've been to India.

Sure.

If I had a nickel for every kiwi I've come across on cricket forums who started off as kiwi and gradually turned out to be an Indian living in NZ....



Yet he averaged 17 for a year or so and orchestrated 45, 47 and 49 all out of three test teams. Just goes to show how ridiculous your test wickets are (when not bending over for India) and how overrated this green track bully is. Even with all the ball tampering he can't buy a wicket.
Click to expand...

For starters there is no such thing a 47, 49, 45 all out pitch.
Its not Philander's fault that the opposition played like idiots. And those pitches were hardly out and green.
And if I recall correctly two of those collapses occurred in the 2nd innings of a test match. Surely the green in the wicket would have been affected by the team batting 1st.

Australia (Cape Town): They batted 1st with Clarke scoring 150. The pitch could not have been "doctored". South Africa went in to bat, and gave Australia a lead of 150+ IIRC. *3rd innings* sky baking hot, no clouds whatsoever, Australia went in to bat with a caution of over 100 runs and got rolled over. South Africa chased the target losing just one wicket with Smith and Amla registering tons scoring at over 4 to the over.
Anyone who thought that pitch was green, doctored or anything either followed that game through cricinfo or have no idea what they are talking about. A pitch with moisture underneath is not a green wicket.

Pakistan (Jo'burg): South Africa won the toss and elected to bat. Who elects to bat on a green deck?
Anyway got to 270 with Hafeez doing the damage. How does a spinner, a part timer at that, cause more damage than seamers on a 1st day of a test? Pakistan were bowled out for 40 odd. Same pitch SA scored over 4 times that amount. SA again crossed 200 in their innings batting aggressively.

New Zealand (Cape Town): Poor New Zealand, someone give them a biscuit.
Elgar score a ton in that match coming from a golden pair. Says a lot doesn't it?

There have also been instances were the surface in Cape Town was a bit slow. Against Pakistan were Ajmal picked up 9/10-for. That surface was slow and Vern took 9 wickets. Did well in New Zealand were pitches have been flat for years. Did a reasonable job in the U.A.E. And the pitches in England were not exactly "green" either still came away with a series average of 23, no one averaged less than 25 in that series, that includes Steyn (29)

No one Is calling Vern great, he may be very well be a green track bully. Or he could just be having an off year or lean run of form.
Either way the sample is too small on either side to make conclusive statements. Let's wait until he has played everyone home and away before jumping the gun and putting labels on players.
 
What a great asset to South African cricket.
When not performing with ball, he does so with the willow.
Won a game in England at Lords on his own taking a 5-for and scoring a valuable 50 when SA were on the verge of a collapse.
Nearly saved a match in Cape Town resisting a rampaging Johnson, showing tremendous courage.
And then today. Saved a match and won the series for his country.
He is indeed the best all rounder in the world ATM. SA are very blessed in this regard through out history.
 
You know things are bad when Philander is praised for his batting. With each season, he is getting exposed for the overrated trundler that he is.
 
soso_killer said:
What a great asset to South African cricket.
When not performing with ball, he does so with the willow.
Won a game in England at Lords on his own taking a 5-for and scoring a valuable 50 when SA were on the verge of a collapse.
Nearly saved a match in Cape Town resisting a rampaging Johnson, showing tremendous courage.
And then today. Saved a match and won the series for his country.
He is indeed the best all rounder in the world ATM. SA are very blessed in this regard through out history.
Click to expand...



You missed his best skills...the ones he picked up an award for recently (Tee Hee) :)
 
Almost 30 months ago ie 2.5 years ago majority of you ruled out Philander at the age of 28 only terming him a trundler who had lost his mojo even at trundling speeds.


Today Vernon Philander is the leader of SA attack and is outperforming Abbott and Rabada significantly.


After 38 Tests he still averages 22 with the Ball.
In 17 away tests he averages 25 with the Ball.

In last 6 Tests he averages 21 with the ball with 2 fivefers and 1 fourfer.


Don't forget his Test batting average of 23.


Do not forget the huge criticism he got for being preferred over Abbott by SA in their last match of WC 2015. Yes Abbott should have played that match.


Philander got fit, worked hard, performed in domesric , made a comeback, showed memtal toughness and is a leader of the attack.


Well done Vernon Philander.


[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION]
 
Very underrated bowler, most PPers don't rate him but deep down, they'd kill to have someone like him in our team. :))
 
Vernon is extremely skillfull bowler even better than Steyn on green tracks or pace and bouncy tracks with little movement.
He is equally dangerous to left handed and right handed batsman.
 
What I don't understand how come he manage to maintain low average and strike rate with less than 4wicket per match with only 3 bowler ( not any good spinner).
 
Vern is equivalent to Kumble and Shah? Do they also average 25 away and around 20 @home?
 
TalentSpotterPk said:
Almost 30 months ago ie 2.5 years ago majority of you ruled out Philander at the age of 28 only terming him a trundler who had lost his mojo even at trundling speeds.


Today Vernon Philander is the leader of SA attack and is outperforming Abbott and Rabada significantly.


After 38 Tests he still averages 22 with the Ball.
In 17 away tests he averages 25 with the Ball.

In last 6 Tests he averages 21 with the ball with 2 fivefers and 1 fourfer.


Don't forget his Test batting average of 23.


Do not forget the huge criticism he got for being preferred over Abbott by SA in their last match of WC 2015. Yes Abbott should have played that match.


Philander got fit, worked hard, performed in domesric , made a comeback, showed memtal toughness and is a leader of the attack.


Well done Vernon Philander.



[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION]
Click to expand...

The guy has his limitations but his class is there for all to see. An out and out match winner
 
Enjoyed watching him bowl in this England-SAF series.

His control over his line and length is immaculate. Keeps probing a batsman's technique, Jennings in particular has been troubled by him.
 
Not tall enough.

Doesn't matter how many wickets he takes, of good players, at such a low average.

Just too short.
 
Graeme Smith questions Philander’s ‘so-called injuries’

MANCHESTER – A dark cloud hangs over Vernon Philander’s international future as a series of injuries and a seeming reluctance to take to the field – even with a tiny niggle – have left teammates and viewers questioning his commitment.

He bowled through severe discomfort at The Oval last week where he was diagnosed with a viral infection, and had to spend a night in hospital on a drip.

And ahead of this fourth Test with the series on the line, he declared himself as being “a lot better”, and was hopeful of a good week.

He underwent a fitness test on Thursday which according to the team doctor, Mohammed Moosajee, he failed.

However, former captain Graeme Smith, speaking on the BBC’s Test Match Special, said he was “frustrated” with Philander, who “spends more time off the field than he does on it. From a senior player and a leader of the team, South Africa want more from him. Find a way to front up”.

Smith then referred to Philander’s “so-called injuries” which have kept him out of this series decider.

Over the course of his six-year international career, Philander has missed 11 out of potentially 57 Tests, seven of which came after he ruptured ankle ligaments in pre-match warm-ups ahead of the second Test in India in November 2015.

Philander then suffered a groin injury playing for Sussex earlier this year, which directly impacted on his preparations for this series.

At Lord’s he apparently played through the pain, hinting afterwards he was reluctant to play there at all.

Speaking on commentary later, Smith said: “As far as Vernon Philander is concerned, you have to start asking questions about the fitness of the man. He can’t seem to get through series anymore.

“There’s no doubting his skills, he’s a great bowler, but he lets himself down with all these niggles, which makes it hard to build a team… it makes things very challenging.”

Philander, along with Andile Phehlukwayo, will return to South Africa this weekend, and it is believed there was strong words between Philander and captain Faf du Plessis, who at his pre-match media briefing had certainly expected Philander to play.

There have been other instances with Philander and doubts about his willingness to play.

One famous incident occurred at Port Elizabeth in 2014 in the second Test against Australia, where Philander claimed he had a tight back.

Following firm words from then-captain Smith, Philander’s name was scratched on to the team sheet just seconds before the toss.

The Cape Cobras star bowled 30 overs in that Test and claimed five wickets.

Because of the importance of this fourth Test, the Proteas were willing to risk playing Philander – although not as big a gamble as at The Oval, where he was only half-fit owing to the viral infection – supplementing for his back ailment with the extra seamer.

However with Philander out, the team reverted back to a seven front-line batsmen structure.

And that is how important Philander is to this South African team now.

To say it’s built around him may be stretching it a bit, but his presence drives the tactical strategising of the side, and in his absence, others need to step up and play a different role.

Conditions, particularly in the first session on Friday, would have suited Philander – overcast, damp even, with a fresh pitch assisting the bowler that hits the seam.

In Philander’s absence, the Proteas had to employ spinner Keshav Maharaj more than they would have wanted on the first day.

That Maharaj did such an excellent job is of great credit to him and his skill. He bowled nearly a third of South Africa’s overs on the first day – a much higher percentage than he’d normally be expected to bowl at the start of a Test.

Even Olivier, playing just his third Test, had to set aside his nerves as he only found out shortly before the toss that he’d be playing.

He had to produce a performance of greater discipline and accuracy than he’s ever been required to do at any stage of his career.

But having done that, following a strong chat with Faf du Plessis, his rewards were big ones – the wickets of his former SA Under-19 teammate Keaton Jennings and the more prized scalp of England captain Joe Root.

“The new ball was nipping around. You know I’m fairly new, and there were a lot of nerves. I just started a bit too wide, I just needed to settle in and with the older ball, the straighter I bowled, the more difficult it was to score,” said Olivier.

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/cricket/...stions-philanders-so-called-injuries-10640493
 
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