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[VIDEOS] Babar Azam vs Virat Kohli at the ICC World Cup 2023

Babar should just play practice matches that have no stakes in them. Its clear now who turns up when the stakes are high and the pressure is on.
 
It’s a long tournament.
Don’t close the book too soon.


Babar is a class player and will average out these failures eventually.

Wishing both the best
 
Kohli's got more mongrel than Babar..

Some juveline Pakistani fans were dishing out Chokli etc....wonder what name they gonna dish to their now diminshed king??
 
RehanG said:
Had that catch of Kohli being taken, things would have been different.

Nevertheless, i don't think there is a comparison, Kohli is probably all-time greatest match finisher.
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No shame in losing wickets to bowlers of caliber of Starc or Hazlewood.

The world’s no. 1 batter not scoring against Netherlands or SL though?
 
nish_mate said:
Kohli's got more mongrel than Babar..

Some juveline Pakistani fans were dishing out Chokli etc....wonder what name they gonna dish to their now diminshed king??
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There is already one if you can check social media
 
Bilal7 said:
Babar Azam, despite being in the infancy of his career in 2019 batted better than his more accomplished rival at the last world cup.

​
InningsInningsRunsAverageHighest Score100s/50s6s/4s
Babar Azam847467.71101*1/32/50
Virat Kohli944355.37820/52/38

​

Can Kohli finally have a world cup to remember and prove his superiority once and for all? Or will Babar show that he is in fact, the best ODI batsman of all time by defeating Kohli at the scoring charts yet again?

We will find out soon enough.
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A long absence is what's needed after coming up with this.
 
I genuinely worry for Babar's mental health, PCB should look at the bigger picture and not field Babar for the game on Sat. The lad's clearly not in the right mental space, under pressure, half empty hostile hostile crowds in "dushman mulk".

If the poor chap cant handle this, he will be having an onscreen meltdown on Sat, and India will be blamed for being poor hosts :(. Babar honestly take a break from the game, withdraw from the squad, go join the Shaheens and tour WI & ZIM whilst WC is on and come back rejuvenated. :vk
 
Bilal7 said:
Takers? These are facts. Facts that have a bunch of people seething but facts nonetheless.

You don't have to reply because nothing you say will change the fact that Baby Babar outscored prime Kohli back in 2019.
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Cough, cough .... please come back to this thread.
 
Mockingbird said:
No shame in losing wickets to bowlers of caliber of Starc or Hazlewood.

The world’s no. 1 batter not scoring against Netherlands or SL though?
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Thhand rakho
Babar has given pain to Aussies too.

It’s just a matter of time.

I think Babar absolutely has to score 500 runs in 9 matches. That’s his benchmarks

2 gone, so 450 in 7 matches, it’s still doable
 
Genuinely feel bad for Babar. He's had 2 bad inns and his bowling attack isn't doing him any favours

This was a troll thread opened by OP maybe in an attempt at banter and it has attracted only bad luck and crow.
 
Mockingbird said:
Never hold it against him, Babar is a class act.

His fans though…
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Wholeheartedly agreed.

One of the nicest, most humble and hard working lads to ever come out of Pakistan.

Don’t know why they put him in so much pressure like this. He’s competing against 50 batters but they have to put him in front of Kohli only.
 
I said it before in another thread, I find Rizwan a tougher opponent than Babar because he steps up to challenges and under a crisis more than Babar. Today's match so far is another example.
 
Hitman said:
I said it before in another thread, I find Rizwan a tougher opponent than Babar because he steps up to challenges and under a crisis more than Babar. Today's match so far is another example.
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Exactly!!! You wrote same think I wanted to write few mins ago. Babar would have out of the team is all the teams sent out their main players for last 3 years.
 
topspin said:
A long absence is what's needed after coming up with this.
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RehanG said:
Had that catch of Kohli being taken, things would have been different.

Nevertheless, i don't think there is a comparison, Kohli is probably all-time greatest match finisher.
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Had the catch of Abdullah shafiq been taken, things would have been still different?
No disrespect to Abdullah shafiq who scored a magnificent century. Was he not dropped today at the boundary similar to kohl's catch? Does the dropped catch take the sheen away from his innings?

when do fans grow up not bringing "if's and buts"/selective theories to disregard kohl's achievements?
 
mikeypbadana86 said:
Had the catch of Abdullah shafiq been taken, things would have been still different?
No disrespect to Abdullah shafiq who scored a magnificent century. Was he not dropped today at the boundary similar to kohl's catch? Does the dropped catch take the sheen away from his innings?

when do fans grow up not bringing "if's and buts"/selective theories to disregard kohl's achievements?
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It doesn't class as a drop catch as he get his fingers on the ball.
 
ex-q-zit said:
How come @Bilal7 has suddenly gone MIA after Kohli's knock and babar's 2nd failure. Its OK mate its a long tournament, you will have your turn too. This thread is going to get legendary status by the time this WC ends no matter which side wins.
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I think both are going to score two hundreds .I hope king score century against Pakistan on 14 October .
 
Shafi said:
To be honest Every team has at least 3-4 better batsman than Babar.
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Too much exaggeration.

Babar is literally 1 big knock away from being in contention for MOTT , we are not yet too deep in the tournament and Pakistan has 5 major teams to play.
 
Kohli in 2 games has already scored half centuries. Babar hasn't done anything.

Score count

Kohli = 140 runs atm with an avg of 70 in the world cup so far and an Avg SR of 85.7

Babar = 15 runs atm with an avg of 7.5 and an AVg SR of 47.2

Let's see how this changes in the upcoming India vs Pakistan game.
 
nish_mate said:
Kohli's got more mongrel than Babar..

Some juveline Pakistani fans were dishing out Chokli etc....wonder what name they gonna dish to their now diminshed king??
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Mate you're acting like a good chunk of Indians don't call him Chokli.
 
mominsaigol said:
Kohli in 2 games has already scored half centuries. Babar hasn't done anything.

Score count

Kohli = 140 runs atm with an avg of 70 in the world cup so far and an Avg SR of 85.7

Babar = 15 runs atm with an avg of 7.5 and an AVg SR of 47.2

Let's see how this changes in the upcoming India vs Pakistan game.
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Average of 140 for Kohli
 
You cannot compare 2 top players just after 2 games. We should wait for the league stage to finish and then we can see where both of them stand.
 
My issue here Babar has to get ahead of several players It is almost like we assume he is better than Rohit sharma and whole bunch of other international batsmen and only guy that is left for him to overtake is Kohli who probably will retire in an year or two. His first goal is to be the best batsman in his side. In current form not sure. Failures in Asia cup. Failure so far in World cup except warm up games. He has no injury issues. He didn't take break even in warm up, didn't take break against Netherlands while guys like Gill who missed 15 matches. That is how Babar reached top ranking. Because others were penalized for missed matches. We have guys like Conway, rookie Rachin Ravindra, Darryl Mitchell, David Warner, Klassen, QDK, Dawid Malan, Rassie vander dussen who are doing a fabulous job. Sure he is probably the best batsman Pakistan has produced in a long time. IT doesn't make him the best batsman world has seen in a long time.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
My issue here Babar has to get ahead of several players It is almost like we assume he is better than Rohit sharma and whole bunch of other international batsmen and only guy that is left for him to overtake is Kohli who probably will retire in an year or two. His first goal is to be the best batsman in his side. In current form not sure. Failures in Asia cup. Failure so far in World cup except warm up games. He has no injury issues. He didn't take break even in warm up, didn't take break against Netherlands while guys like Gill who missed 15 matches. That is how Babar reached top ranking. Because others were penalized for missed matches. We have guys like Conway, rookie Rachin Ravindra, Darryl Mitchell, David Warner, Klassen, QDK, Dawid Malan, Rassie vander dussen who are doing a fabulous job. Sure he is probably the best batsman Pakistan has produced in a long time. IT doesn't make him the best batsman world has seen in a long time.
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Man, what on earth are you saying? According to @Bilal7 , he is already better than every Indian single batsman till date bar Sachin and Kohli.
 
Too many fair weather fans.

Babar has consistently proven his skill set and ability - he’s nearing 1000 days as the number 1 ranked ODI batsmen. He also had an amazing 2019 World Cup. Plenty of matches left, he will come good, no need to worry.

We have yet to face any of the elite teams and Kohli ended up being dropped in the only game India has played against an elite team thus far. Also Kohli has nothing left to prove in group stages. He could score 5 100’s in the next 5 innings and it does not change his standing. The thing that is holding Kohli back from GOAT status compared to Tendulkar and Vivian Richards is knockout round performances.
 
160KPH said:
Too many fair weather fans.

Babar has consistently proven his skill set and ability - he’s nearing 1000 days as the number 1 ranked ODI batsmen. He also had an amazing 2019 World Cup. Plenty of matches left, he will come good, no need to worry.

We have yet to face any of the elite teams and Kohli ended up being dropped in the only game India has played against an elite team thus far. Also Kohli has nothing left to prove in group stages. He could score 5 100’s in the next 5 innings and it does not change his standing. The thing that is holding Kohli back from GOAT status compared to Tendulkar and Vivian Richards is knockout round performances.
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Kohli is still goat status though. I remember in CT 2017 when watching the final against India, we were happy when rohit was dismissed but all of us leaped into the air and shouted off the top of our lungs when kohli got dismissed.

Goes to show the impact the guy literally has. Same impact that Tendulkar and viv had, Viv especially.
 
mominsaigol said:
Kohli is still goat status though. I remember in CT 2017 when watching the final against India, we were happy when rohit was dismissed but all of us leaped into the air and shouted off the top of our lungs when kohli got dismissed.

Goes to show the impact the guy literally has. Same impact that Tendulkar and viv had, Viv especially.
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Kohli is arguably the biggest choke artist in ODI Knockout history. His average drops from 57 @ 94 SR all the way to 28 @ 82 SR in knockout matches. We have a big sample size as well and his low average is being carried by only two not out innings of 58* and 96*. In both of these matches, there was no pressure either because the openers already performed and scored massive scores and the team was on track to win anyway. He has not even scored a single century in a knockout round, the most important games in a tournament!

Vivian Richards and Sachin Tendulkar's numbers do not just stay the same in knockout matches, but they go up. In fact, even Rohit Sharma is much more clutch and batted much better than Kohli during the exact same tournaments - including some very important centuries. Kohli's hype is based mainly on his group matches and meaningless bilateral series. There is no doubt he is a great, but he is not even close to Vivian Richards and Sachin Tendulkar who put their teams on their back and carried their team during tournaments.
 
160KPH said:
Kohli is arguably the biggest choke artist in ODI Knockout history. His average drops from 57 @ 94 SR all the way to 28 @ 82 SR in knockout matches. We have a big sample size as well and his low average is being carried by only two not out innings of 58* and 96*. In both of these matches, there was no pressure either because the openers already performed and scored massive scores and the team was on track to win anyway. He has not even scored a single century in a knockout round, the most important games in a tournament!

Vivian Richards and Sachin Tendulkar's numbers do not just stay the same in knockout matches, but they go up. In fact, even Rohit Sharma is much more clutch and batted much better than Kohli during the exact same tournaments - including some very important centuries. Kohli's hype is based mainly on his group matches and meaningless bilateral series. There is no doubt he is a great, but he is not even close to Vivian Richards and Sachin Tendulkar who put their teams on their back and carried their team during tournaments.
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Never said kohli is > Sachin or Tendulkar lol.

I have quite a few handful batters superior to him.

Kohli is still a goat though. But yes he is a chocker in world cups, no doubts.
 
Tendulkar is the greatest of all time.

Kids these days think Kohli and Babar batting average is a big deal, if Tendulkar played in this era he’s averaging 60+ in ODI Cricket.

The supreme talent that he was
 
mominsaigol said:
Never said kohli is > Sachin or Tendulkar lol.

I have quite a few handful batters superior to him.

Kohli is still a goat though. But yes he is a chocker in world cups, no doubts.
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In that case fair enough, I agree with you. In T20s, Kohli is a whole different beast compared to anyone else. His record is ridiculous no matter which way you look at it including in knockout rounds. For me, he is the GOAT T20 batsmen no doubt.

But, for me Kohli is in one step below the absolute highest tier which is Tendulkar/Vivian Richards.
Also, Steven Smith does not have as good of a total career as Kohli does in ODI, but he is an absolute gun player in pressure moments in tournaments.
 
160KPH said:
In that case fair enough, I agree with you. In T20s, Kohli is a whole different beast compared to anyone else. His record is ridiculous no matter which way you look at it including in knockout rounds. For me, he is the GOAT T20 batsmen no doubt.

But, for me Kohli is in one step below the absolute highest tier which is Tendulkar/Vivian Richards.
Also, Steven Smith does not have as good of a total career as Kohli does in ODI, but he is an absolute gun player in pressure moments in tournaments.
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Sorry typo, I meant kohli is not > Tendulkar or Viv Richards.

I accidentally said Sachin or Tendulkar 😂😂😂.
 
160KPH said:
Rohit Sharma is much more clutch and batted much better than Kohli during the exact same tournaments
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Rohit Sharma failed in all knockout matches. He is a clutch player on flat tracks and performs three times better than others, but he is walking wicket when conditions are tough.

He peaked in the 2019 World Cup when pitches were extremely flat. However, he struggled on tricky pitches during the same tournament, as seen in our matches against Afghanistan and New Zealand.
 
Cover Drive Six said:
Rohit Sharma failed in all knockout matches. He is a clutch player on flat tracks and performs three times better than others, but he is walking wicket when conditions are tough.

He peaked in the 2019 World Cup when pitches were extremely flat. However, he struggled on tricky pitches during the same tournament, as seen in our matches against Afghanistan and New Zealand.
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In the last 10 years, he averages 68.80 @ 93.97 SR in knockout rounds. Kohli on the other hand in the same tournaments across the last 10 years averages only 23 in knockout rounds. Numbers speak for themselves.
 
Temba Bavuma played a handbrake sub 70 SR inns in game vs Aus on what looks like a good 300 pitch.

After 2 games his aggregate is now more than Babar but net impact probably equal so far. It is turning out to be a very even steven contest so far and Babar will be looking at taking the lead in the India game
 
pratiktc said:
Temba Bavuma played a handbrake sub 70 SR inns in game vs Aus on what looks like a good 300 pitch.

After 2 games his aggregate is now more than Babar but net impact probably equal so far. It is turning out to be a very even steven contest so far and Babar will be looking at taking the lead in the India game
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Agreed, it's about time to bring the comparison with Kohli to a close and rename this thread to Babar v Bavuma.
 
160KPH said:
In the last 10 years, he averages 68.80 @ 93.97 SR in knockout rounds. Kohli on the other hand in the same tournaments across the last 10 years averages only 23 in knockout rounds. Numbers speak for themselves.
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Where did you get this 68 average ..lol. Can you provide the complete break up for these comparisons.
I am talking about the ODI World Cup. Both of them, Rohit and Kohli failed in the 2015 and 2019 KO matches.
Rohit scored around 30 runs against Australia; I believe and Kohli played some 30 runs in 2011 WC final. These two only their best efforts in big matches.
 
topspin said:
Agreed, it's about time to bring the comparison with Kohli to a close and rename this thread to Babar v Bavuma.
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Babar is > Bavuma bro. 😂😂. We just overrate babar to epic proportions but bavuma is the epitome of soft scores lol, Bavuma is just lucky to be batting with a side where every player can single handidely outbat the opposition on their day
 
Reality is Babar is a fine player but his fanatics and Pak media put too much pressure on his him.

By law of averages he will eventually score against India but even scoring a good knock like 75-80 is simply not enough. The likes of Bilal keep comparing him to a legend like Kohli so in order to meet fan expectations he has to score 130-140 at a SR of 125+ and single handedly win match.

IMO it is this pressure which always ends up in his getting out to half formed inns. And after every failure vs India it exponentially increases.

Meanwhile the likes of a Kohli, Rohit have long since made their bones vs Pakistan. They would be ok getting out for a fast 30-40 on Saturday if that will move the game forward and dont mind being in slipstream of others. Their focus is on making semifinals and not on creating individual legacy where Babar seems to be stuck.
 
Both batters have played two matches so far in this World Cup and at the moment Kohli is far ahead than Babar in terms of making runs but there are still at least 7 matches to go for both teams and I am expecting a close contest between these two batting greats in this tournament.
 
pratiktc said:
Reality is Babar is a fine player but his fanatics and Pak media put too much pressure on his him.

By law of averages he will eventually score against India but even scoring a good knock like 75-80 is simply not enough. The likes of Bilal keep comparing him to a legend like Kohli so in order to meet fan expectations he has to score 130-140 at a SR of 125+ and single handedly win match.

IMO it is this pressure which always ends up in his getting out to half formed inns. And after every failure vs India it exponentially increases.

Meanwhile the likes of a Kohli, Rohit have long since made their bones vs Pakistan. They would be ok getting out for a fast 30-40 on Saturday if that will move the game forward and dont mind being in slipstream of others. Their focus is on making semifinals and not on creating individual legacy where Babar seems to be stuck.
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Well when you have people making 2nd coming of Bradman comments about him then ears do get turned a bit lol
 
Cricket Warrior said:
Whoever scores a century tomorrow will be hailed as a great of the game.
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What! Rohit scored a century against Pakistan in the last World Cup. Yet we Indian fans aren't even sure whether he deserves a place in the side based on his form in the last couple of years.
 
pratiktc said:
Babar has taken the lead vs Bavuma today now reaching 65 runs in 3 inns.

How will Bavuma react to this? Stay tuned for SA vs Ned on Tuesday to find out
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It's tragedy yet comedy at the same time. Even though I always had an idea of his ceiling & limitations, still used to get annoyed at those ridiculous tags like Zimbabar or even newer ones like Nedbabar or Nepbabar etc. I realized after 19 wc what this boy can do & can't do, but least until 2021 t20wc I used to believe the man doesn't deserve to get so much hate/disrespect. But now I see why, he doesn't help his case neither does these ridiculous hilarious fanboys who for some godforsaken reasons have already decided on their own that he surpassed 90% of the great odi batsmen already (including all his countrymen) & now on one magical day he will surpass Kohli /AB too. Some are beyond hopeless who feel he is right up there with Sachin /Lara!😒
It's been now 4 loi tournaments in a row where his performance range varies from mediocrity to outright disastrous. The Bavuma comparison doesn't even appear funny anymore, as the guy clearly had shown more intent last year in Aus. He I believe in the ongoing calendar year possesses better average & strike rates. If only the fanclub hadn't hyped him to this ridiculous proportion none of this mockery would have occurred, he could have played with less pressure.
 
VForVendetta said:
It's tragedy yet comedy at the same time. Even though I always had an idea of his ceiling & limitations, still used to get annoyed at those ridiculous tags like Zimbabar or even newer ones like Nedbabar or Nepbabar etc. I realized after 19 wc what this boy can do & can't do, but least until 2021 t20wc I used to believe the man doesn't deserve to get so much hate/disrespect. But now I see why, he doesn't help his case neither does these ridiculous hilarious fanboys who for some godforsaken reasons have already decided on their own that he surpassed 90% of the great odi batsmen already (including all his countrymen) & now on one magical day he will surpass Kohli /AB too. Some are beyond hopeless who feel he is right up there with Sachin /Lara!😒
It's been now 4 loi tournaments in a row where his performance range varies from mediocrity to outright disastrous. The Bavuma comparison doesn't even appear funny anymore, as the guy clearly had shown more intent last year in Aus. He I believe in the ongoing calendar year possesses better average & strike rates. If only the fanclub hadn't hyped him to this ridiculous proportion none of this mockery would have occurred, he could have played with less pressure.
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AB? What has his he won his country with his futuristic WC batting? Anything other than bilaterals? The dud hasn't even won an IPL for heavens sake.
Regarding his hype, you're talking as if he reads posts on PP.
 
heddie19 said:
AB? What has his he won his country with his futuristic WC batting? Anything other than bilaterals? The dud hasn't even won an IPL for heavens sake.
Regarding his hype, you're talking as if he reads posts on PP.
Click to expand...
I could care less about ipl psl or any other mickey mouse leagues. Internationals are all I care & measure accordingly. So, the guy wasn't part of any tournament winning side, does that make him worthless? Does that reduce his greatness? Even though he is the most successful wc performer of his country & I believe still amongst the top 5 all time wc run scorers. As a batsman he did everything he could in the 15 wc, not his fault that Steyn once again choked in a knock out match. By your criteria some of the absolute greatest odi batsmen lose their shine. That includes Sayeed Anwar, the true goat of Pakistan according to me. Guys like Abbas, Gibbs, Yousuf, Crowe didn't win any trophy. On the other hand lesser guys like Malik, Hafeez even a complete nobody like Azhar Ali were lucky enough to win a trophy. Winning an icc trophy obviously enhances one's legacy but doesn't mean not winning it becomes a blemish on one's batsmanship. If he would fail as a batsman on those tournaments then obviously your claim of him being a bilateral bully would have been correct. More than being part of a winning side what's significant is how much you contribute to that cause. Fakhar & Hasan were those guys in 17. Without them, it was impossible to win the trophy. On the other hand, there were quite a few passengers whose absence would have meant nothing. Also I never claim AB as the best, always say one of the best. I'll always maintain that Viv, Sachin & Ponting are greater than him due to that tournament winning caliber.
 
VForVendetta said:
I could care less about ipl psl or any other mickey mouse leagues. Internationals are all I care & measure accordingly. So, the guy wasn't part of any tournament winning side, does that make him worthless? Does that reduce his greatness? Even though he is the most successful wc performer of his country & I believe still amongst the top 5 all time wc run scorers. As a batsman he did everything he could in the 15 wc, not his fault that Steyn once again choked in a knock out match. By your criteria some of the absolute greatest odi batsmen lose their shine. That includes Sayeed Anwar, the true goat of Pakistan according to me. Guys like Abbas, Gibbs, Yousuf, Crowe didn't win any trophy. On the other hand lesser guys like Malik, Hafeez even a complete nobody like Azhar Ali were lucky enough to win a trophy. Winning an icc trophy obviously enhances one's legacy but doesn't mean not winning it becomes a blemish on one's batsmanship. If he would fail as a batsman on those tournaments then obviously your claim of him being a bilateral bully would have been correct. More than being part of a winning side what's significant is how much you contribute to that cause. Fakhar & Hasan were those guys in 17. Without them, it was impossible to win the trophy. On the other hand, there were quite a few passengers whose absence would have meant nothing. Also I never claim AB as the best, always say one of the best. I'll always maintain that Viv, Sachin & Ponting are greater than him due to that tournament winning caliber.
Click to expand...
No one is calling him worthless, I've seen him play and the rest that you mentioned too, he is a legend of the game. Similarly I am sure that you have seen Babar play too. No one calls him best batter ever but for Pakistani's standards he surely is in a league of his own.
 
VForVendetta said:
I could care less about ipl psl or any other mickey mouse leagues. Internationals are all I care & measure accordingly. So, the guy wasn't part of any tournament winning side, does that make him worthless? Does that reduce his greatness? Even though he is the most successful wc performer of his country & I believe still amongst the top 5 all time wc run scorers. As a batsman he did everything he could in the 15 wc, not his fault that Steyn once again choked in a knock out match. By your criteria some of the absolute greatest odi batsmen lose their shine. That includes Sayeed Anwar, the true goat of Pakistan according to me. Guys like Abbas, Gibbs, Yousuf, Crowe didn't win any trophy. On the other hand lesser guys like Malik, Hafeez even a complete nobody like Azhar Ali were lucky enough to win a trophy. Winning an icc trophy obviously enhances one's legacy but doesn't mean not winning it becomes a blemish on one's batsmanship. If he would fail as a batsman on those tournaments then obviously your claim of him being a bilateral bully would have been correct. More than being part of a winning side what's significant is how much you contribute to that cause. Fakhar & Hasan were those guys in 17. Without them, it was impossible to win the trophy. On the other hand, there were quite a few passengers whose absence would have meant nothing. Also I never claim AB as the best, always say one of the best. I'll always maintain that Viv, Sachin & Ponting are greater than him due to that tournament winning caliber.
Click to expand...

You forgot Lara.

I guess he was useless because West Indies never won a World Cup.
 
heddie19 said:
No one is calling him worthless, I've seen him play and the rest that you mentioned too, he is a legend of the game. Similarly I am sure that you have seen Babar play too. No one calls him best batter ever but for Pakistani's standards he surely is in a league of his own.
Click to expand...
You may not claim him the goat odi Pak batter but many of your fellow Babar fans have. Well at the moment the entire hype train has slowed down a bit since he isn't exactly scoring a lot of runs these days. Consistent mediocrity in tournaments have certainly caused the fanbase to quiet down a bit. But if he somehow manages to score just another hundred in this world cup I am sure those hyperbole reactions will return.
I don't know whether he is in a league of his own or not, I know this, as of now he isn't better than Miandad, Inzy, Anwar or Yousuf. While I didn't witness Abbas but old timers here rate him pretty high also.
I don't know if you think BA is better than AB or not. But for me they don't even belong to the same discussion.
 
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