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[VIDEOS] Ben Stokes - England’s best ever all-rounder? / England’s Test captain

shaz619 said:
Hoping to get tickets for the Edgbaston Test!
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Definitely do so if you can. I will be at Headingley this year as usual — and making the trip down to Lord’s this time as well! :)
 
Mamoon said:
Stokes got lucky. He is riding on the coat-tails of McCullum and made to look like a great captain which he is not.

McCullum is a maverick and he can be suicidal at times, we have seen that during his playing career and especially during his captaincy.

To his credit, the non-conventional approach that he has adopted for England is working so far. He has identified that England is not good enough to succeed by batting in an orthodox fashion and he has got them playing ODI cricket which has maximized the strengths of the batsmen that he has at his disposal and also rattled the opposition.

But all this Bazball stuff has nothing to do with Stokes. This could have been anyone else including Root. This is all down to McCullum.

Stokes’ on-field decisions have been average at best but winning makes everything look good, and England are winning because of McCullum not Stokes.

For example, enforcing follow-on was a really bad call. It almost cost England the match and he ran his bowlers into the ground, most of whom are not spring chickens.

Root was hounded out of captaincy but the real problem was that England were trying to play orthodox Test cricket when they were not good enough to play orthodox Test cricket.

Apart from Root and to an extent Pope, they did not have any batsmen at the time who could play classical Test knocks.

If Root was retained as captain and McCullum was brought in as coach, England would still be playing this Bazball stuff and everyone is saying Root got lucky.

However, since Root was replaced as well and they had a new coach and captain at the helm, it created this illusion that the captain (Stokes), had a lot to do with England changing their playing style but in reality, he did not.

Stokes is doing nothing except piggybacking McCullum and taking credit for his success. This is what you, [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] fail to understand.
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Sorry to say but that's trademark Mamoon - make an outlandish statement which backfires but instead of holding your hands up, you double down.

McCullum's a novice coach in internationals and his brief franchise coaching stint had mixed success - leading KKR to 5th, 2nd and 7th in IPL, and a CPL title with TKR. By his own admission he's a man manager than a tactical or technical coach. His commentary showed he wasn't a deep thinker of the game, but someone with a simple philosophy which happens to dovetail with ENG's strengths and Stokes' mindset, yet you're hyping him up as the Alex Ferguson of cricket :))

Root's a wonderful cricketer and human being. He's a fellow Yorkshireman so I've no axe to grind, but you're letting your hero worship of Root blind you to his captaincy failings.

He made countless errors from omitting Anderson and Broad on a Brisbane greentop, batting first in said Brisbane Test, overloading on pacers on a square turner in Ahmedabad, and the list goes on. You won't find any English cricket journalist praising Root's tactical acumen. He deserves credit for leading ENG through Covid bubbles and outstanding batting, and that's it.

He relied on individual brilliance from Anderson, Stokes and co. He wouldn't have drawn the 2019 Ashes without the man you despise. Furthermore, Root worked with an attack-minded coach in Trevor Bayliss, who oversaw their white-ball transformation, and STILL struggled. Yes he's the most victorious ENG Test captain, but he also lost more than any captain so your claim Root would've thrived under McCullum is conjecture.

Stokes proved his captaincy acumen pre-McCullum. He whitewashed PAK in 2021 in ODIs with a C team. He inherited a team that won 1 in 17, and regardless of what happens tonight, overseen the most staggering Test turnaround of recent times.

One final point as you now sing McCullum's praises. Who authored these pearls of wisdom last summer ?

England’s batting lacks discipline. They are short of two Test class batsmen and the bowling unit needs Archer back as the spearhead.

They do not need a suicidal maverick like McCullum at the helm who is always on the cusp of doing something stupid and reckless.

There is a lot of talk of this so-called new era with Stokes and McCullum running the show, but nothing has changed and nothing will change unless England find some proper batsmen and get Archer fit again.
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Any guesses ?
 
Markhor said:
Sorry to say but that's trademark Mamoon - make an outlandish statement which backfires but instead of holding your hands up, you double down.

McCullum's a novice coach in internationals and his brief franchise coaching stint had mixed success - leading KKR to 5th, 2nd and 7th in IPL, and a CPL title with TKR. By his own admission he's a man manager than a tactical or technical coach. His commentary showed he wasn't a deep thinker of the game, but someone with a simple philosophy which happens to dovetail with ENG's strengths and Stokes' mindset, yet you're hyping him up as the Alex Ferguson of cricket :))

Root's a wonderful cricketer and human being. He's a fellow Yorkshireman so I've no axe to grind, but you're letting your hero worship of Root blind you to his captaincy failings.

He made countless errors from omitting Anderson and Broad on a Brisbane greentop, batting first in said Brisbane Test, overloading on pacers on a square turner in Ahmedabad, and the list goes on. You won't find any English cricket journalist praising Root's tactical acumen. He deserves credit for leading ENG through Covid bubbles and outstanding batting, and that's it.

He relied on individual brilliance from Anderson, Stokes and co. He wouldn't have drawn the 2019 Ashes without the man you despise. Furthermore, Root worked with an attack-minded coach in Trevor Bayliss, who oversaw their white-ball transformation, and STILL struggled. Yes he's the most victorious ENG Test captain, but he also lost more than any captain so your claim Root would've thrived under McCullum is conjecture.

Stokes proved his captaincy acumen pre-McCullum. He whitewashed PAK in 2021 in ODIs with a C team. He inherited a team that won 1 in 17, and regardless of what happens tonight, overseen the most staggering Test turnaround of recent times.

One final point as you now sing McCullum's praises. Who authored these pearls of wisdom last summer ?



Any guesses ?
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Roasted.
 
What are Stokes contributions with the bat and bowl?

He doesn't merit a place in the team if he is not gonna bowl even 5 overs in a full test match and hardly contribute with bat while forcing a part timer bowl 15 overs in NZ conditions even though that part time bowler is miles better batsman than anyone England had since Wally Hammond.

So much potential with bat but averages a mediocre 35, that's poor for a batsman who has now become worse than a part timer with bowl.
 
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Great captaincy, bravo. :)))

Imagine the scenes if Root would have lost a Test after enforcing the follow-on and over-bowled his aging pacers like this.

Stokes can’t bat or bowl anymore, he is also selfish to the boot and riding on the coattails of his coach. A great player but he hasn’t been relevant since he selfishly sat out of the Test series vs India and the T20 World Cup in 2021.
 
Markhor said:
Sorry to say but that's trademark Mamoon - make an outlandish statement which backfires but instead of holding your hands up, you double down.

McCullum's a novice coach in internationals and his brief franchise coaching stint had mixed success - leading KKR to 5th, 2nd and 7th in IPL, and a CPL title with TKR. By his own admission he's a man manager than a tactical or technical coach. His commentary showed he wasn't a deep thinker of the game, but someone with a simple philosophy which happens to dovetail with ENG's strengths and Stokes' mindset, yet you're hyping him up as the Alex Ferguson of cricket :))

Root's a wonderful cricketer and human being. He's a fellow Yorkshireman so I've no axe to grind, but you're letting your hero worship of Root blind you to his captaincy failings.

He made countless errors from omitting Anderson and Broad on a Brisbane greentop, batting first in said Brisbane Test, overloading on pacers on a square turner in Ahmedabad, and the list goes on. You won't find any English cricket journalist praising Root's tactical acumen. He deserves credit for leading ENG through Covid bubbles and outstanding batting, and that's it.

He relied on individual brilliance from Anderson, Stokes and co. He wouldn't have drawn the 2019 Ashes without the man you despise. Furthermore, Root worked with an attack-minded coach in Trevor Bayliss, who oversaw their white-ball transformation, and STILL struggled. Yes he's the most victorious ENG Test captain, but he also lost more than any captain so your claim Root would've thrived under McCullum is conjecture.

Stokes proved his captaincy acumen pre-McCullum. He whitewashed PAK in 2021 in ODIs with a C team. He inherited a team that won 1 in 17, and regardless of what happens tonight, overseen the most staggering Test turnaround of recent times.

One final point as you now sing McCullum's praises. Who authored these pearls of wisdom last summer ?



Any guesses ?
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You don’t need to be a good captain to beat Pakistan in a home ODI series. Any half-decent team should be able to achieve it with their eyes closed. Pakistan is a joke of a cricket team.

Stokes inherited a team that won 1 in 17 but his team is now winning because of the left-field approach of his coach and not because of his leadership. As I said, Stokes just got lucky that he got paired with McCullum.

This whole Bazball stuff has nothing to do with him. It is delusional to argue otherwise. England would still be playing conventionally if Stokes was the captain and Silverwood was the coach.

Root made mistakes for sure, but no mistake of his was as big as Mr. Great Captain Stokes losing a Test by enforcing a follow-on and over bowling his aging bowlers. He will obviously not be criticized because he is not Root.

As far as McCullum is concerned, it does not matter if he has coaching experience or not. Experience is not everything and people have excelled in their first jobs and assignments.

People with no experience have excelled and people with 20+ years of experience have failed.

McCullum may or may not be a good coach, but he took a risky approach after becoming the England coach and so far it has worked wonders. He deserves credit for making it work regardless of how unlikely it seemed but I’m sorry, we cannot give credit to Stokes for something that he did not do.
 
Robert said:
Yeah, we do. Because it isn’t correct.

Firstly the England batting unit is different now. Out went the weak top order, in came Duckett and Pope scoring heavily at #3.

Secondly you yourself laud Brook. Clearly a genius.

Thirdly Stokes has a much better understanding of his bowlers than Root, being one himself.

Fourthly BMac and Stokes are clearly kindred spirits with closely aligned ideas of how to play and radiating positivity. All the players say this.

Fifthly, Root doesn’t play Bazball. He carries on batting at 60/100 which is KP speed anyway.

Sixthly Stokes has an excellent keeper in Foakes, the best England have had in decades, adding another dimension.
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Yes Stokes’ understanding of his bowlers is impeccable. He enforced the follow-on with aging bowlers like Anderson and Broad ran them into the ground. Great job.

The changes in the top-order are because McCullum wants them playing ODI cricket in whites. This is why Duckett is opening. He won’t open for any Test side that wants to play conventional cricket. He is not good enough for that.

I suspect Bairstow would be back as opener to replace Zack.

Root has tried to play aggressively, more so than his usual self. This is why he keeps getting out playing funky reverse-paddles and scoops.
 
shaz619 said:
You are right about Brendan’s influence clearly but you are underestimating Stokes as an inspirational figure in the dressing room, the players are clearly galvanised under him, cricket is both tactical and mental, the latter is given some serious attention in Woolmer’s encyclopaedia on cricket. Stokes has played some of the most iconic knocks this century and the players believe that under him, nothing is impossible, they have that license. Also, Brendon wouldn’t have thrived with his philosophy alongside a captain such as Rooty, Brendon and Stokes both share similar views and have a similar mentality, that doesn’t hurt when executing plans.
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Stokes is a phenomenal cricketer. I love watching him play, there is no doubt in my mind he is one of the all-time greats. The 2019 World Cup and the Headingley Test will be forever etched in history.

However, I’m sorry but the selfishness that he has shown in the last couple of years means he can no longer be seen as an inspiration.

The way he sat out two hugely important assignments - the Test series vs India (which England drew) and the T20 World Cup in Dubai (England lost the semifinal) sent a very wrong message. It was a clear cut example of putting yourself and your needs above the team.

Stokes would not have died had he played. He should have toughened up. England could have won both assignments with his contributions.

Similarly, the way he selfishly retired from ODIs 12 months before the World Cup was also pathetic to see. He retired because he doesn’t care since he has already won the World Cup, and the fact that he is still England’s premier all-rounder means nothing to him.

If this was about workload, he should have retired from T20Is. He cannot afford to retire from that format because if he does, he will risk his IPL contract.

Joe Root is always there for his team. Every format, every match, he is there to play for his country. He is available.

When England were losing Test matches left, right and center in his captaincy and he was getting criticized like no tomorrow, he didn’t do this mental health drama and run away. He was still there, and he was practically hounded out of the role.

Stokes was an inspiration but not anymore. He is only an inspiration for those who aspire to put themselves - and their needs - above the team’s.

ECB should not have rewarded this deserter with leadership role. It sent a wrong message and encouraged young players to put themselves above the team. It is not the right approach. Stokes should have paid a price for what he did.
 
Mamoon said:
ECB should not have rewarded this deserter with leadership role. It sent a wrong message and encouraged young players to put themselves above the team. It is not the right approach. Stokes should have paid a price for what he did.
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Yea, ten tests wins out of twelve matches, brilliant entertainment throughout, what a loser!
 
Chennai Super Kings (CSK) have been hit with a major blow ahead of the start of the 2023 season of the Indian Premier League (IPL), as star all-rounder Ben Stokes will not be fit to bowl at the start of the season due to a knee injury.

Stokes was visibly suffering from the injury during England's recent Test series against New Zealand. However, the English red-ball captain had confirmed after the second Test match ended that he will fulfil his IPL commitment despite the Ashes series against Australia starting just days after the IPL ending.

Timesnow
 
England captain Ben Stokes has warned Australia that he has asked for "fast, flat wickets" to take the attack to the Ashes holders later this year. Stokes is hoping to lead England to their first Test series victory over Australia since 2015 and he believes pitch conditions will be crucial. The all-rounder wants groundsmen at Edgbaston, Lord's, Old Trafford, Headingley and The Oval -- the five venues staging Ashes Tests -- to produce the kind of quick pitches that will allow England to use the aggressive game-plan he has deployed with great success since taking over as captain.

"We've been very clear with the ground-staff around England about what type of wickets we want and they've been very responsive to us, which is good," Stokes said on Sky Sports on Tuesday.

"We want fast, flat wickets. We want to go out there and score quickly. I'm smiling because I'm looking forward to it.

"There's no point changing just because we're coming into an Ashes series. Every player knows the Ashes is where everything ramps up a bit - pressure, exposure, all kinds of stuff - but we'll just keep sticking to what we do."

Stokes has spoken frequently of his willingness to lose in pursuit of victory.

He pushed that philosophy to the brink against New Zealand in February when England lost the series decider in Wellington by one run having declared their first innings and enforced the follow-on.

A draw would have settled the series in England's favour but Stokes said he would not settle for stalemate, even with the Ashes on the line.

"Hold me to it. Every game I play this summer will be to produce a result," he said.

"I'm not going to change anything just because it's the Ashes. I'm not going to change for anything or any situation, because then I'm not being true to myself and what I've done over the last year."

NDTV
 
MenInG said:
England captain Ben Stokes has warned Australia that he has asked for "fast, flat wickets" to take the attack to the Ashes holders later this year. Stokes is hoping to lead England to their first Test series victory over Australia since 2015 and he believes pitch conditions will be crucial. The all-rounder wants groundsmen at Edgbaston, Lord's, Old Trafford, Headingley and The Oval -- the five venues staging Ashes Tests -- to produce the kind of quick pitches that will allow England to use the aggressive game-plan he has deployed with great success since taking over as captain.

"We've been very clear with the ground-staff around England about what type of wickets we want and they've been very responsive to us, which is good," Stokes said on Sky Sports on Tuesday.

"We want fast, flat wickets. We want to go out there and score quickly. I'm smiling because I'm looking forward to it.

"There's no point changing just because we're coming into an Ashes series. Every player knows the Ashes is where everything ramps up a bit - pressure, exposure, all kinds of stuff - but we'll just keep sticking to what we do."

Stokes has spoken frequently of his willingness to lose in pursuit of victory.

He pushed that philosophy to the brink against New Zealand in February when England lost the series decider in Wellington by one run having declared their first innings and enforced the follow-on.

A draw would have settled the series in England's favour but Stokes said he would not settle for stalemate, even with the Ashes on the line.

"Hold me to it. Every game I play this summer will be to produce a result," he said.

"I'm not going to change anything just because it's the Ashes. I'm not going to change for anything or any situation, because then I'm not being true to myself and what I've done over the last year."

NDTV
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Fast flat wickets will nullify both sets of teams attacks. Aussies batting can score just as quick as England so then it becomes a case of which team blinks 1st when it comes to results. Aussie batsmen have always struggled vs moving ball in England, so players like Warner, head etc.. would actually enjoy playing on pancakes.
 
All-rounder Ben Stokes is set to fly back home after Chennai Super Kings’ last league match, scheduled to be played in Delhi on Saturday. Struggling with fitness issues, the England Test captain has decided to give himself enough time to prepare for Ashes, starting next month.

Stokes was bought by CSK for Rs 16.25 crore during the IPL auction in December 2022, making him the most expensive player ever for the franchise. However, his campaign was marred by sore fitness. The ace English cricketer could only play the first two matches for the franchise and scored 15 runs. He bowled just one over and conceded 18 runs.

With the Ashes series between England and Australia beginning with the opening Test on June 16, Stokes will ‘return to the UK after their final group game against Delhi Capitals on Saturday afternoon’, stated a report in the media

As part of their preparation, England are also set to play a Test against Ireland at Lord’s on June 1 and Stokes, who has a long-running knee issue, had expressed his desire to ‘give myself enough time to get back and play that game’ and ‘fulfil my role as fourth seamer’ during the Ashes.

Following the April 3 game, Stokes didn’t play any match for CSK initially due to a toe injury.

On April 22, CSK chief coach Stephen Fleming had said that Stokes has ‘suffered an injury setback and will be out for a week.’ The star all-rounder was available for selection again last week but didn’t feature in the playing XI for CSK.

https://www.news18.com/cricketnext/...er-csks-last-league-match-report-7828291.html
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">🗓️ <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnThisDay?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnThisDay</a> in 2015...<br><br>Our Test captain hit the fastest 💯 EVER at Lords!<br><br>Coming in just 8️⃣5️⃣ balls 🤯 <a href="https://twitter.com/benstokes38?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@BenStokes38</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/HomeOfCricket?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@HomeOfCricket</a><a href="https://t.co/MUkTbaxgRq">pic.twitter.com/MUkTbaxgRq</a></p>— England Cricket (@englandcricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/englandcricket/status/1661283847609237507?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 24, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Mamoon said:
Stokes is a phenomenal cricketer. I love watching him play, there is no doubt in my mind he is one of the all-time greats. The 2019 World Cup and the Headingley Test will be forever etched in history.

However, I’m sorry but the selfishness that he has shown in the last couple of years means he can no longer be seen as an inspiration.

The way he sat out two hugely important assignments - the Test series vs India (which England drew) and the T20 World Cup in Dubai (England lost the semifinal) sent a very wrong message. It was a clear cut example of putting yourself and your needs above the team.

Stokes would not have died had he played. He should have toughened up. England could have won both assignments with his contributions.

Similarly, the way he selfishly retired from ODIs 12 months before the World Cup was also pathetic to see. He retired because he doesn’t care since he has already won the World Cup, and the fact that he is still England’s premier all-rounder means nothing to him.

If this was about workload, he should have retired from T20Is. He cannot afford to retire from that format because if he does, he will risk his IPL contract.

Joe Root is always there for his team. Every format, every match, he is there to play for his country. He is available.

When England were losing Test matches left, right and center in his captaincy and he was getting criticized like no tomorrow, he didn’t do this mental health drama and run away. He was still there, and he was practically hounded out of the role.

Stokes was an inspiration but not anymore. He is only an inspiration for those who aspire to put themselves - and their needs - above the team’s.

ECB should not have rewarded this deserter with leadership role. It sent a wrong message and encouraged young players to put themselves above the team. It is not the right approach. Stokes should have paid a price for what he did.
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Ridiculous post. The man has single handedly won England the ODI World Cup, ashes tests and now the t20 World Cup too. He’s turned around an abysmal England test side with amazing victories and a style of play that hasn’t been seen in cricket before. But because he could have contributed to more wins he’s selfish?

Have you thought about the fact that being such an all time clutch player like that takes a toll on a person and they have to manage it? It’s easy for a player like Joe Root to keep playing because he’s a serial loser which takes no effort. If he played one of the hands that Stokes has done, Root would still be in the icu.

You have so much egg on your face from your comment about Stokes’ knee and how he’s finished and how terrible a decision it was to appoint him. So now you’re trying to find an angle on which to hate him.
 
Mamoon said:
Stokes is a phenomenal cricketer. I love watching him play, there is no doubt in my mind he is one of the all-time greats. The 2019 World Cup and the Headingley Test will be forever etched in history.

However, I’m sorry but the selfishness that he has shown in the last couple of years means he can no longer be seen as an inspiration.

The way he sat out two hugely important assignments - the Test series vs India (which England drew) and the T20 World Cup in Dubai (England lost the semifinal) sent a very wrong message. It was a clear cut example of putting yourself and your needs above the team.

Stokes would not have died had he played. He should have toughened up. England could have won both assignments with his contributions.

Similarly, the way he selfishly retired from ODIs 12 months before the World Cup was also pathetic to see. He retired because he doesn’t care since he has already won the World Cup, and the fact that he is still England’s premier all-rounder means nothing to him.

If this was about workload, he should have retired from T20Is. He cannot afford to retire from that format because if he does, he will risk his IPL contract.

Joe Root is always there for his team. Every format, every match, he is there to play for his country. He is available.

When England were losing Test matches left, right and center in his captaincy and he was getting criticized like no tomorrow, he didn’t do this mental health drama and run away. He was still there, and he was practically hounded out of the role.

Stokes was an inspiration but not anymore. He is only an inspiration for those who aspire to put themselves - and their needs - above the team’s.

ECB should not have rewarded this deserter with leadership role. It sent a wrong message and encouraged young players to put themselves above the team. It is not the right approach. Stokes should have paid a price for what he did.
Click to expand...

Ridiculous post. The man has single handedly won England the ODI World Cup, ashes tests and now the t20 World Cup too. He’s turned around an abysmal England test side with amazing victories and a style of play that hasn’t been seen in cricket before. But because he could have contributed to more wins he’s selfish?

Have you thought about the fact that being such an all time clutch player like that takes a toll on a person and they have to manage it? It’s easy for a player like Joe Root to keep playing because he’s a serial loser which takes no effort. If he played one of the hands that Stokes has done, Root would still be in the icu.

You have so much egg on your face from your comment about Stokes’ knee and how he’s finished and how terrible a decision it was to appoint him. So now you’re trying to find an angle on which to hate him.
 
Forum363 said:
Ridiculous post. The man has single handedly won England the ODI World Cup, ashes tests and now the t20 World Cup too. He’s turned around an abysmal England test side with amazing victories and a style of play that hasn’t been seen in cricket before. But because he could have contributed to more wins he’s selfish?

Have you thought about the fact that being such an all time clutch player like that takes a toll on a person and they have to manage it? It’s easy for a player like Joe Root to keep playing because he’s a serial loser which takes no effort. If he played one of the hands that Stokes has done, Root would still be in the icu.

You have so much egg on your face from your comment about Stokes’ knee and how he’s finished and how terrible a decision it was to appoint him. So now you’re trying to find an angle on which to hate him.
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Stokes’ 2019 heroics does not justify or validate how he abandoned England in 2021. He sat out the two most important assignments of the year for England cricket when he is fully fit to play.

Your justifications do not change the fact it was an extremely selfish decision. He clearly put himself and his needs above the team’s.

Your excuse that he is a clutch player and it took its toll on him mentally is laughable. It is one of the worst excuses I have heard. He is one the first clutch player and will not be the last. Being clutch doesn’t mean you have the freedom to abandon your team.

In addition to skipping the India series and the T20 WC, he also retired from ODIs 12 months before the World Cup. He simply attempted to insult everyone’s intelligence by using the workload excuse. Who is he trying to fool?

You can’t talk about workload when you’re playing T20Is and IPL. This decision was purely motivated by money. You know it, I know it, the whole world knows it. Stokes should be man enough to say it as it is but clearly he’s not.

People all over the world do a lot tougher and mentally taxing jobs for 1/100th of the money Stokes makes. They don’t have the luxury of going missing for 6 months because they need a mental health break. The problem is that modern cricketers are out of touch with the harsh realities of life and live in a bubble.

It reminds of how they would start crying after two weeks in a five star hotel during the pandemic while thousands of people in the real world were isolated from their homes for months and were living in harsh conditions without getting paid.

Root a serial loser? He is one of greatest batsmen of all time and undoubtedly England’s best batsman since the Second World War.

He is a much accomplished batsman than Stokes can ever dream to be. Yes Stokes is an all-rounder, but his bowling alone isn’t good enough for Zimbabwe let alone England.

The fact that you are calling Root a serial loser shows how little you know about the game. Both Root and Stokes are England legends. You need to respect the individual contributions of both players.

Joe Root has always been there for England. He has carried the England batting lineup on his shoulders for years and was the one to keep everything together. He had huge responsibility on his shoulders but he never complained and never did the mental health drama etc. to take a break and abandon the team.

He has always been available. Even as captain when his team was on a losing streak, he didn’t abandon them and was hounded out of captaincy. A real captain never abandons his ship.

We know what sort of captain Stokes. When things go south somewhere down the line and England start suffering heavy defeats, he will not think twice before abandoning his team and will put himself above the team as usual.

As far as England’s results are concerned, they are mostly due to McCullum. This Bazball stuff was his idea and it is working so far and full credit goes to him even though I didn’t think it was a very sensible idea at the time.

McCullum was going to let his batsmen unleash because he recognizes that he has white ball batsman in his Test team and perhaps the best way forward would be to play around their strengths.

Regardless of who the captain would have been, England would be playing like this today. Stokes finds himself at the right place at the right time and piggybacking McCullum’s success.
 
Yes after Ian botthom and Imran retired he is the best allrounder we have seen in international cricket. The numbers are not that great but impact has been to the same if not higher level.
 
Mamoon said:
Stokes’ 2019 heroics does not justify or validate how he abandoned England in 2021. He sat out the two most important assignments of the year for England cricket when he is fully fit to play.

Your justifications do not change the fact it was an extremely selfish decision. He clearly put himself and his needs above the team’s.

Your excuse that he is a clutch player and it took its toll on him mentally is laughable. It is one of the worst excuses I have heard. He is one the first clutch player and will not be the last. Being clutch doesn’t mean you have the freedom to abandon your team.

In addition to skipping the India series and the T20 WC, he also retired from ODIs 12 months before the World Cup. He simply attempted to insult everyone’s intelligence by using the workload excuse. Who is he trying to fool?

You can’t talk about workload when you’re playing T20Is and IPL. This decision was purely motivated by money. You know it, I know it, the whole world knows it. Stokes should be man enough to say it as it is but clearly he’s not.

People all over the world do a lot tougher and mentally taxing jobs for 1/100th of the money Stokes makes. They don’t have the luxury of going missing for 6 months because they need a mental health break. The problem is that modern cricketers are out of touch with the harsh realities of life and live in a bubble.

It reminds of how they would start crying after two weeks in a five star hotel during the pandemic while thousands of people in the real world were isolated from their homes for months and were living in harsh conditions without getting paid.

Root a serial loser? He is one of greatest batsmen of all time and undoubtedly England’s best batsman since the Second World War.

He is a much accomplished batsman than Stokes can ever dream to be. Yes Stokes is an all-rounder, but his bowling alone isn’t good enough for Zimbabwe let alone England.

The fact that you are calling Root a serial loser shows how little you know about the game. Both Root and Stokes are England legends. You need to respect the individual contributions of both players.

Joe Root has always been there for England. He has carried the England batting lineup on his shoulders for years and was the one to keep everything together. He had huge responsibility on his shoulders but he never complained and never did the mental health drama etc. to take a break and abandon the team.

He has always been available. Even as captain when his team was on a losing streak, he didn’t abandon them and was hounded out of captaincy. A real captain never abandons his ship.

We know what sort of captain Stokes. When things go south somewhere down the line and England start suffering heavy defeats, he will not think twice before abandoning his team and will put himself above the team as usual.

As far as England’s results are concerned, they are mostly due to McCullum. This Bazball stuff was his idea and it is working so far and full credit goes to him even though I didn’t think it was a very sensible idea at the time.

McCullum was going to let his batsmen unleash because he recognizes that he has white ball batsman in his Test team and perhaps the best way forward would be to play around their strengths.

Regardless of who the captain would have been, England would be playing like this today. Stokes finds himself at the right place at the right time and piggybacking McCullum’s success.
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You're wrong on so many things its laughable. In the end Root did quit and he said he didn't want to do the job anymore. He hung on as long as he could and then after 16 losses in 17 games, he called it quits.

The only reason Stokes took the job was because Root gave him his blessing. And Stokes came in before McCullum and is far more influential to the team environment. He has never abandoned the team as captain so not sure how you are saying that.

I suggest you read this cricinfo article putting aside your hatred of Stokes because he took some time out and tell me he's not crucial to the changes seen:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...at-went-into-it-before-he-took-charge-1378888
 
Pakhs said:
Yes after Ian botthom and Imran retired he is the best allrounder we have seen in international cricket. The numbers are not that great but impact has been to the same if not higher level.
Click to expand...

That would be Jacques Kallis. Bowling wise, they are both at same level( Stokes barely bowling these days ) but batting wise, Kallis is three levels ahead.
 
Forum363 said:
You're wrong on so many things its laughable. In the end Root did quit and he said he didn't want to do the job anymore. He hung on as long as he could and then after 16 losses in 17 games, he called it quits.

The only reason Stokes took the job was because Root gave him his blessing. And Stokes came in before McCullum and is far more influential to the team environment. He has never abandoned the team as captain so not sure how you are saying that.

I suggest you read this cricinfo article putting aside your hatred of Stokes because he took some time out and tell me he's not crucial to the changes seen:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...at-went-into-it-before-he-took-charge-1378888
Click to expand...

Hate Stokes? You might find it hard to believe but he is one of my all time favorite cricketers. You can bump any pre 2021 Stokes thread and see my posts.

However, I personally lost respect for him when he opted out of the India Test series and the T20 World Cup in 2021 and for retiring from ODIs whilst providing a phony excuse that no one buys.

I have lost even more respect for his fans and his apologists who keep performing mental gymnastics and keep side-stepping instead of admitting that he put himself above England cricket and acted selfishly.

It is not even up for debate. It is what it is, and people should call it as it is.

Stokes was appointed only 2-3 weeks earlier than McCullum. They started working together. Stokes first Test as captain was also McCullum’s first Test as coach.

This Bazball revolution is McCullum’s work not Stokes who finds himself at the right place at the right time.
 
Fast bowling allrounders are special and need extra care especially early in the career. To their credit England put in the investment with Stokes and he has paid them back and many times more. A wonderful cricketer who is now hitting new heights with the captaincy role. He’s possibly the finest cricketer of the current generation in world cricket.

The Aussies also invest in this type of talent, they did with Watson and are now playing the long game with Greens development because the rewards can be very rich.
 
Ab Fan said:
That would be Jacques Kallis. Bowling wise, they are both at same level( Stokes barely bowling these days ) but batting wise, Kallis is three levels ahead.
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Kallis had no impact as an allrounder. He did save or win matches through his batting.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] amidst that lengthy diatribe you didn't mention Ben Stokes' father died in December 2020 from brain cancer. As someone who's lost relatives yourself surely you'd recognise the mental toll that takes ?

The ODI retirement I agree was poorly timed and handled, but for a doctor your judgmental, presupposing attitude is quite remarkable.

FWIW I don't believe that every sportsperson claiming mental health issues ought to be treated with kid gloves. The tennis player Naomi Osaka claiming she couldn't do press conferences for mental health reasons was ridiculous and that's a case where someone needs to toughen up.

2) I've already dealt with your claim Stokes merely being incidental to England's success elsewhere so I won't relitigate that. To think a novice coach whose prior record was mixed at best is the only reason behind their transformation is absurd, and again you'd do well to recall your own comments last April:

They do not need a suicidal maverick like McCullum at the helm who is always on the cusp of doing something stupid and reckless.

There is a lot of talk of this so-called new era with Stokes and McCullum running the show, but nothing has changed and nothing will change unless England find some proper batsmen and get Archer fit again.
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Clearly things have turned out quite differently.
 
Captain Ben Stokes says the only way he will not take a full part in England's Ashes summer is if he "can't walk".

The 31-year-old had a cortisone injection in a persistent knee injury in March, before playing only two games for Chennai Super Kings in the Indian Premier League.

Stokes will lead England in the one-off Test against Ireland on Thursday.

"I've given myself the best possible chance to play a big role, especially with the ball," he told BBC Sport.

Stokes did not bowl in England's last Test, a defeat by New Zealand in Wellington in February.

His time with Chennai was disrupted by a foot injury, after which he was left out of the side, but the all-rounder said he used his time in India to improve his chances of playing a full part with the ball for England.

"The knee is in a much better place than what it was in Wellington," he said.

"I've worked incredibly hard with the medical team in Chennai, who were liaising with the England guys.

"I've got myself into a place where I feel like I'm back at a 2019, 2020 space in terms of my body.

"I know I won't look back on this summer and regret any decisions that I had in the build-up period, because I've worked my nuts off.

"Unless I can't walk, I'll be on the field."

England will hand a debut to Worcestershire pace bowler Josh Tongue in the four-day Test against the Irish.

Bowlers James Anderson and Ollie Robinson have been left out as they recover from minor injuries, but Stokes said both would have been able to play had this been the first Ashes Test.

Tongue, 25, has been chosen ahead of Chris Woakes to join Stuart Broad and Matthew Potts in the pace attack.

"We know Woakesy is a very experienced player and what he will offer this team when he plays," said Stokes.

"We see this as a great opportunity to see someone like Josh Tongue go out and play in a Test. We might need someone like him throughout the summer.

"It gives me an opportunity to see what his character is like and what he is like to operate with as a captain. Woakesy completed understood that."

The five-Test Ashes series begins on 16 June, with England looking to regain the urn from Australia for the first time in five years.

Under Stokes and coach Brendon McCullum, England have won 10 of their past 12 Tests in thrilling fashion.

Now, the prospect of England taking their swashbuckling style to the Australians is creating the prospect of the most eagerly anticipated Ashes series since the epic contest of 2005.

Stokes, though, does not believe that this summer will "define" his captaincy.

"That would make it feel like once the Ashes is over, that's it, but it's not it for me as a captain or the end of what this team is about to do," he added.

"This Ashes is about the journey that we've been on and will continue to be on. It's not going to be the end of me as a captain, me as a player or this team and the way we're trying to progress the game."

Stokes also dismissed any suggestion that England's aggressive method will have to be tempered against the high-quality Australian attack.

"That's the English mentality of turning something negative straight away," he said.

"Every team we've played against, it's been said 'it will be a big challenge to play against that team in this way'.

"This is the way we have found ourselves playing our best cricket. Every team we come up against is a challenge, but I find myself answering the same question against different opposition."

This will be Ireland's second Test at Lord's - in 2019 they bowled England out for 85 before themselves succumbing for only 38 in a 143-run loss.

Since then they have played only three Tests - all this year. They are still looking for their first ever Test win after six successive defeats.

Left-arm pace bowler Josh Little is not part of the Ireland squad after playing in the IPL final for Gujarat Titans on Monday. Little is being rested with the qualifying tournament for the 50-over World Cup beginning on 18 June in Zimbabwe.

"Our focus is to put in our best possible performance," said Ireland captain Andrew Balbirnie.

"As a Test team, this is a pinnacle event for us. We're not sure when our next Test is, so we have to enjoy this.

"I have to support what's best for Josh. Of course I want him in my team, he's a brilliant bowler. I understand he has to rest up and focus on getting ready for the World Cup qualifier."

BBC
 
England captain Ben Stokes looked to be injured when taking a catch against Ireland at Lord's and Michael Atherton claims it's not a promising sign with five Ashes Tests to come.
 
Doull: What do England do if Stokes can't bowl?

Sky Sports Cricket's Simon Doull is worried about Ben Stokes' fitness...

"The bowling attack looks strong. If they can get their best bowling attack from that combination out onto the field, I think it's a good one.

"Stokes is going to be the issue: will he be able to bowl? If he can't bowl, and if that bowling attack is put under pressure - the Australian left-handers going hard at Leach - then where do England turn?"
 
q3WkXfU.png
 
Stokes: Knee issue 'nothing to worry about'

"I landed quite awkwardly on it [as I took the catch to dismiss Curtis Campher]. My weight went on the inside of my knee, I hyper-extended it.

"I bowled this morning, the first time I have bowled since being back from India and I was really happy with the way it was. Nothing to worry about."

==

Stokes playing it down but the Aussies will be watching his fitness with great interest
 
Born: June 4, 1991 (age 32 years), Christchurch, New Zealand

==

Happy Birthday Ben Stokes.
 
[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

Stokes is not the first and will not be the last person to lose a loved one. It is one of the harsh realities of life. There is no job in the world that will allow you to take a 6 month bereavement leave. Try this at the place where you work and they will ask you to resign.

Yes Stokes is not doing a regular job and athletes have certain privileges and luxuries that regular people don't, but there are countless examples of athletes who have played through personal tragedies or took a small break but did not make themselves unavailable for as long as Stokes did in 2021.

Yes, different people react differently. Some are emotionally more resilient than others. However, whatever the reasons were, the fact is that Stokes put himself above England. I don't know why his apologists are too scared to call it as it is. The reasons and the excuses do not matter; the end result does.

Did Stokes put himself above England? It is a yes and no question and the answer to this question is a resounding yes.

In my opinion, any player who has a documented history of putting himself above his team (again, for whatever reason) should not be rewarded with a leadership position. If he did it once he could do it again as well.

Besides, he is still doing it. He retired from ODIs by giving the phony excuse of 'managing workload' but if managing workload was his priority, he would not be playing franchise cricket including IPL.

He had a bad knee for a while and took injections prior to IPL 2023 to make himself available for selection. If he wanted to manage his workload, he would have opted out of the IPL this year which would have given him ample time to fully recover for the Ashes which he will now play without being fully fit.

His retirement from ODIs had nothing to do with managing workload and everything to do with the fact that he is only interested in playing Test cricket and earning money in franchise cricket. He clearly didn't have the courage to be honest about it.

The fact that he retired from ODIs just a year before the 2023 World Cup and when he is still England's best all-rounder by far clearly shows that he is not done with putting himself above the team.
 
Mamoon said:
[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

Stokes is not the first and will not be the last person to lose a loved one. It is one of the harsh realities of life. There is no job in the world that will allow you to take a 6 month bereavement leave. Try this at the place where you work and they will ask you to resign.

Yes Stokes is not doing a regular job and athletes have certain privileges and luxuries that regular people don't, but there are countless examples of athletes who have played through personal tragedies or took a small break but did not make themselves unavailable for as long as Stokes did in 2021.

Yes, different people react differently. Some are emotionally more resilient than others. However, whatever the reasons were, the fact is that Stokes put himself above England. I don't know why his apologists are too scared to call it as it is. The reasons and the excuses do not matter; the end result does.

Did Stokes put himself above England? It is a yes and no question and the answer to this question is a resounding yes.

In my opinion, any player who has a documented history of putting himself above his team (again, for whatever reason) should not be rewarded with a leadership position. If he did it once he could do it again as well.

Besides, he is still doing it. He retired from ODIs by giving the phony excuse of 'managing workload' but if managing workload was his priority, he would not be playing franchise cricket including IPL.

He had a bad knee for a while and took injections prior to IPL 2023 to make himself available for selection. If he wanted to manage his workload, he would have opted out of the IPL this year which would have given him ample time to fully recover for the Ashes which he will now play without being fully fit.

His retirement from ODIs had nothing to do with managing workload and everything to do with the fact that he is only interested in playing Test cricket and earning money in franchise cricket. He clearly didn't have the courage to be honest about it.

The fact that he retired from ODIs just a year before the 2023 World Cup and when he is still England's best all-rounder by far clearly shows that he is not done with putting himself above the team.
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“Officially” I would think most top corporations offer 5-7 working days for bereavement leave. However, there’s also mandatory paid sick leave and also company paid sick leave to. I’ve known people who’ve been off sick for months due to mental health reasons and have a supporting doctors note. High profile companies need to be careful especially to avoid being taken to court due to unfair dismissal. I take your point you can choose to fire someone etc but someone who has been valuable to the company, they tend to get all the support. So I wouldn’t necessarily say the 6 months off was completely unusual, sure it’s not normal.

You make some valid points about him putting his own needs above England’s at times and he has been involved in some messy situations off the pitch. But this where I do like a radical approach to management, you’re right, under a traditional set up, maybe he wouldn’t be playing? however, each player is unique, and you need to bend some rules for your best players. It was done for Archer so he could represent England.

Is Stokes arguably the best impact player England have had in their history? possibly, especially this century - this is why he gets special treatment and you can’t overlook his achievements, and more recently, he has reinvigorated England’s test team, under Root England became a mid table team. Lets assume it’s all to do with Brendan, however, in-order to put his vision into practice, he needs to link up with the right personality; and he and Stokes naturally would have more chemistry together compared a Root/Brendan duo
 
Stokes is on for his first bowl in a game since April and first in red-ball cricket since February. Let's see how his knee holds up
 
Stokes has a pedigree of a great player because of what he can do and capable of doing on a given day but his performance over his career has not been worthy of a great player.
 
Stokes is a superman of cricket - he takes the ball and you know something will happen, whatever the match situation.

His batting is a little iffy nowadays but that can change any moment.
 
Amazing captaincy?

==

8p3l4bp8_usman-khawaja-twitter_625x300_18_June_23.jpg


England saw the back of Usman Khawaja with an unconventional field set-up on Day 3 of the first Ashes Test at Edgbaston, Birmingham. Khawaja's painstaking century had effectively turned the first Ashes Test at Edgbaston into a one-innings shoot-out on Sunday before Ollie Robinson cleaned him up with a yorker delivery to bring England back in the game. As many as six fielders were brought really close to the southpaw, hardly leaving any gap for him to score in front of the wicket.
 
England captain Ben Stokes has made a robust defence of his first-day declaration at Edgbaston that was arguably a decisive factor in his side's two-wicket loss to Australia in the Ashes opener.

Stokes had called his side in late on day one with England flying on 8-393 and Joe Root in overdrive after reaching a glorious hundred, however opposing captain Pat Cummins was among many to say they would not have done the same.

Stokes' move, typical of England's ultra-aggressive Bazball approach, failed to pay off.

The home side did not pick up any wickets in the final 20 minutes and relinquished the chance to flog a weary Australia attack for cheap runs.

But Stokes was unrepentant, insisting after Tuesday's dramatic, narrow loss that he didn't regret the decision and indicating he'd consider doing the same in the next Test at Lord's.

"I'm a captain who saw it as an opportunity to pounce on Australia," Stokes said.

"I don't think any batter likes to go out 20 minutes before the close of play. The way in which we played, and took Australia on, actually allowed us to be able to do that.

"I could also turn around and say, 'If we didn't declare, would we have got that excitement like we did at the end of day five?'.

"I'm not 100 per cent sure but I'm not going to be looking back at this game as 'what ifs'.

"The reality is, we just didn't manage to get over the line this week."

Asked if he would have declared in similar circumstances, Cummins said: "Probably not. I'm not overly surprised (that Stokes did) but the wicket felt pretty good so I thought every run was pretty much needed in that first innings."

England ended up with a seven-run first-innings lead when they might have had a substantial advantage, but Stokes, surprisingly chilled after the defeat, felt it was far from a "psychological blow" for his side.

"It's a bit early to say the Ashes are slipping away after one game," he smiled.

"There are still four games left. Keep following us and we will keep trying to do what we do.

"I'm sat here as a losing captain, but I couldn't be more proud of the way we have operated and the effort put in by everyone across the game.

"We've lost and it's disappointing but if you look at the way we've played over the last five days compared to how the last few Ashes series have gone it proves what we're capable of doing against Australia.

"Even though we're on the wrong end of the result here, it proves we went toe-to-toe throughout the whole game."

And if England pile on a huge first-day score at Lord's in the next Test, would he make a similar declaration?

"Yeah, I'd like to be 398 for six with 20 minutes left, that'd be great," he grinned.

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/ben...s-test-edgbaston-england-australia/2023-06-21
 
Strauss: England fluffed their lines

"Usually Stokes is very proactive, trying different things, prising the batsmen out. I suppose his attitude today was 'let the pitch do it for us'.

"There was enough for that to be a sensible tactic. The problem was England's bowlers expected it to happen and perhaps didn't put enough into it.

"I thought they were a little wayward and looked like they lacked a bit of zip. They will be bitterly disappointed as they had a great opportunity and they fluffed their lines."
 
MenInG said:
Strauss: England fluffed their lines

"Usually Stokes is very proactive, trying different things, prising the batsmen out. I suppose his attitude today was 'let the pitch do it for us'.

"There was enough for that to be a sensible tactic. The problem was England's bowlers expected it to happen and perhaps didn't put enough into it.

"I thought they were a little wayward and looked like they lacked a bit of zip. They will be bitterly disappointed as they had a great opportunity and they fluffed their lines."
Click to expand...

Regardless of what Stokes achieves as a captain, Strauss remains England's best test captain of last 30 years
 
He is embarrassing himself out there. His captaincy is utter garbage, he is bowling like a part-timer and batting like a tail-ender.

Fitness wise, I have seen fitter 80 year old men. Rapidly ruining his legacy.

He is a quitter and will probably play the mental health card again if Australia thrash England in this series which seems to be a very likely outcome at this point.
 
Too early to write off England.

But Stokes' attitude toward fitness and the overall game belies lack of hardwork - despite so many successes. It may unravel fast.

England is carrying 6-7 32+ year old cricketers who are in a club.
 
Easy to jump on and hate after a few bad days. Stokes has won all around the world and has won everything.

He made a few bad calls but he’s achieved more than almost any other cricketer in history. No one in the game has had as much impact on trophies and key matches almost single handedly.

Understandably his body is falling apart now because he’s a pace bowling all rounder and an exceptional fielder. But England is lucky to have him as leader.
 
Forum363 said:
Easy to jump on and hate after a few bad days. Stokes has won all around the world and has won everything.

He made a few bad calls but he’s achieved more than almost any other cricketer in history. No one in the game has had as much impact on trophies and key matches almost single handedly.

Understandably his body is falling apart now because he’s a pace bowling all rounder and an exceptional fielder. But England is lucky to have him as leader.
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His body is falling apart but he still decided to play in the IPL by injecting pain-killers in his knees. A great leader would have opted out of the IPL and refueled himself for the Ashes series.

He might not have been 100% fit anyway but no one can argue that he wouldn’t have been in relatively better shape had he rested during the IPL, a tournament that aggravated his injury.

He is no leader or role-model. He has a documented history of putting himself above England on numerous occasions. A phenomenal player in his prime, but right now he is as washed up as any player I have ever seen.
 
Mamoon said:
His body is falling apart but he still decided to play in the IPL by injecting pain-killers in his knees. A great leader would have opted out of the IPL and refueled himself for the Ashes series.

He might not have been 100% fit anyway but no one can argue that he wouldn’t have been in relatively better shape had he rested during the IPL, a tournament that aggravated his injury.

He is no leader or role-model. He has a documented history of putting himself above England on numerous occasions. A phenomenal player in his prime, but right now he is as washed up as any player I have ever seen.
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Yes because winning England every trophy there is to win and then taking a few weeks to earn money in the highest profile t20 tournament while honing your skills is selfish? By that logic every cricketer who skips bilateral series to play in IPL is selfish - and there are a lot of those. Heck there are players who miss international matches
That are going on during the ipl.

You said he was washed up and finished years ago and you saw how he embarrassed you by winning England the t20 World Cup. So keep talking.
 
He could have retired before Ashes lol A series loss here will dilute everything he did right before that.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
He could have retired before Ashes lol A series loss here will dilute everything he did right before that.
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That’s harsh. He played the key innings in both the 50 over and 20 over World Cup finals and England are double World Cup holders because of this, he played one of the highest rated Test innings in recent history to win an Ashes Test single handedly, and he has been on the winning team in the Ashes before this (2015).

12 Test hundreds in total, including at Newlands and the WACA, and tons in West Indies and India. Bear in mind he is an all rounder and not just a batsman. 194 Test wickets to add in there. Also has 11 Test wins as England captain which is already a fair few. He’s had a great career.

The idea being pushed by one particular poster that he is some kind of bottler who doesn’t care about English cricket and doesn’t put the team first because he played a bit of IPL is a joke.

From wiki:

• Man of the Match in the final of the 2019 Cricket World Cup.
• Second-fastest Test double hundred in terms of balls faced.
• Fastest 250 in Tests for which he took only 196 balls.
• Second highest number of sixes in a Test innings – 11 sixes
• Highest number of sixes in a Test career
• Most runs in a Test innings at the sixth position – 258 runs
• Most runs in the first session of a day in Tests – 130 runs
• Highest Test partnership for the sixth wicket. He achieved this feat against South Africa when he made a partnership of 399 runs with Jonny Bairstow.
• Became the second cricketer after Ian Botham to have over 4,000 runs and over 100 wickets in Tests for England.
• Highest number of sixes in a County Championship innings – 17 (for Durham against Worcestershire in May 2022)
 
Forum363 said:
Yes because winning England every trophy there is to win and then taking a few weeks to earn money in the highest profile t20 tournament while honing your skills is selfish? By that logic every cricketer who skips bilateral series to play in IPL is selfish - and there are a lot of those. Heck there are players who miss international matches
That are going on during the ipl.

You said he was washed up and finished years ago and you saw how he embarrassed you by winning England the t20 World Cup. So keep talking.
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Winning trophies for you countries doesn’t give you the license to put yourself above your country. Stokes has done that numerous times over the last couple of yours and no one has cojones to call him out.

There is a difference between every cricketer and Stokes. He is the captain of the England Test team and is frequently lauded for being a ‘great’ leader. He is also a crock.

An England Test captain, who also happens to be a crock, should not be risking his already compromised fitness for an IPL tournament that is being played merely two months before an Ashes series.

He should have been heavily criticized for what he did but his PR is very strong these days. Fortunately, that PR will dissipate after he blows the ongoing Ashes because of his brainless captaincy and pathetic individual performances.

I would have had no issues with his participation in the IPL this year if he wasn’t the England Test captain.

However, an England Test captain, opting to play in the IPL two months before the Ashes when he was already injured and end up aggravating that injury is unacceptable.

If I called him washed up I was simply ahead of the curve. Everyone can see it now. Reminds of how I predicted Graeme Smith’s retirement in 2012 when he was only 31.

Stokes is done and dusted. He will produce a good performance every now and then but the player that we saw from 2016 to 2020 is no longer there.
 
Mamoon said:
Winning trophies for you countries doesn’t give you the license to put yourself above your country. Stokes has done that numerous times over the last couple of yours and no one has cojones to call him out.

There is a difference between every cricketer and Stokes. He is the captain of the England Test team and is frequently lauded for being a ‘great’ leader. He is also a crock.

An England Test captain, who also happens to be a crock, should not be risking his already compromised fitness for an IPL tournament that is being played merely two months before an Ashes series.

He should have been heavily criticized for what he did but his PR is very strong these days. Fortunately, that PR will dissipate after he blows the ongoing Ashes because of his brainless captaincy and pathetic individual performances.

I would have had no issues with his participation in the IPL this year if he wasn’t the England Test captain.

However, an England Test captain, opting to play in the IPL two months before the Ashes when he was already injured and end up aggravating that injury is unacceptable.

If I called him washed up I was simply ahead of the curve. Everyone can see it now. Reminds of how I predicted Graeme Smith’s retirement in 2012 when he was only 31.

Stokes is done and dusted. He will produce a good performance every now and then but the player that we saw from 2016 to 2020 is no longer there.
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I would rather have 1 Stokes who is selfish and puts ‘himself ahead of his country’ but has won his country multiple trophies and key matches in historic finishes, over a 100 players like Root or Amla or Kallis who are solid consistent performers who have never bought the heights of success for their country. It’s easy to be seen as selfless and then go missing when it matters.

And great - ahead of the curve? I predict that Steve Smith is washed up. I might be wrong now and over the next couple of years but eventually I will be hailed as ‘ahead of the curve’! Predictions are easy, you’ll always be proven right.
 
Botham
T Greig
Stokes
Flintoff

This is my order for England test all rounders.
 
Stokes showed his braindead side how to bat against that short stuff. Stay disciplined, cop a few blows and wear the bowlers down until they get back to normal line and length, instead of giving them extra motivation and second winds by chucking your wicket away.

If only he had drilled this into his side before they shot themselves in the foot from a great position.
 
Firebat said:
Stokes showed his braindead side how to bat against that short stuff. Stay disciplined, cop a few blows and wear the bowlers down until they get back to normal line and length, instead of giving them extra motivation and second winds by chucking your wicket away.

If only he had drilled this into his side before they shot themselves in the foot from a great position.
Click to expand...

A nothing shot this morning to derail England’s chances of taking a comprehensive lead. Another abysmal knock.

He is complete deadweight right now. Would struggle to get into the Ireland Test side based on current form and fitness.

England playing with 10 men, and the fact that he makes terrible decisions as captain makes him a complete liability.
 
James said:
That’s harsh. He played the key innings in both the 50 over and 20 over World Cup finals and England are double World Cup holders because of this, he played one of the highest rated Test innings in recent history to win an Ashes Test single handedly, and he has been on the winning team in the Ashes before this (2015).

12 Test hundreds in total, including at Newlands and the WACA, and tons in West Indies and India. Bear in mind he is an all rounder and not just a batsman. 194 Test wickets to add in there. Also has 11 Test wins as England captain which is already a fair few. He’s had a great career.

The idea being pushed by one particular poster that he is some kind of bottler who doesn’t care about English cricket and doesn’t put the team first because he played a bit of IPL is a joke.

From wiki:

• Man of the Match in the final of the 2019 Cricket World Cup.
• Second-fastest Test double hundred in terms of balls faced.
• Fastest 250 in Tests for which he took only 196 balls.
• Second highest number of sixes in a Test innings – 11 sixes
• Highest number of sixes in a Test career
• Most runs in a Test innings at the sixth position – 258 runs
• Most runs in the first session of a day in Tests – 130 runs
• Highest Test partnership for the sixth wicket. He achieved this feat against South Africa when he made a partnership of 399 runs with Jonny Bairstow.
• Became the second cricketer after Ian Botham to have over 4,000 runs and over 100 wickets in Tests for England.
• Highest number of sixes in a County Championship innings – 17 (for Durham against Worcestershire in May 2022)
Click to expand...

He probably has a role in other formats. But in Tests he hardly bowls. His average has come down to 35 from 38 in 3 years. He did his bit as captain briefly. Earned some success as captain. Could have called it quits. Sold for a million in the IPL. Anyway Ashes defines the legacy of an English captain. So far not looking good.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
He probably has a role in other formats. But in Tests he hardly bowls. His average has come down to 35 from 38 in 3 years. He did his bit as captain briefly. Earned some success as captain. Could have called it quits. Sold for a million in the IPL. Anyway Ashes defines the legacy of an English captain. So far not looking good.
Click to expand...

His bowling is poor and he hardly puts in a shift. His test batting output is worse than Asad Shafiq. He has played some memorable innings but these days he's a specialist captain. Better to play Woakes.
 
zarak said:
His bowling is poor and he hardly puts in a shift. His test batting output is worse than Asad Shafiq. He has played some memorable innings but these days he's a specialist captain. Better to play Woakes.
Click to expand...

He isn't fit to bowl long spells but then fully fit he can bowl long spells.
 
Mamoon said:
A nothing shot this morning to derail England’s chances of taking a comprehensive lead. Another abysmal knock.

He is complete deadweight right now. Would struggle to get into the Ireland Test side based on current form and fitness.

England playing with 10 men, and the fact that he makes terrible decisions as captain makes him a complete liability.
Click to expand...

You’ve lost any shreds of credibility. His quitting aside you want stokes to be removed from captaincy because of his ‘poor decisions / captaincy’ after one and a half test matches, and go back to Joe Root? Who captain in THREE ashes series. He got destroyed in the first one 4:0. Then in the home series he lost the ashes after a 2:2 series (which was only possible due to Stokes’ atg innings) and then got destroyed so badly in Australia again that everyone was talking about it being the worst English side down under. Not to mention he threw his bowlers under the bus during that series. And he followed it up with like 10 losses before he was eventually sacked.

And now after ONE loss following 10+ victories to the best side in the world, you want stokes removed?? At least be consistent when you’re seeking attention.
 
He was never Flintoff with the ball in hand so his lack of bowling shouldn't be a worry. He will be back to form, batters like him don't need a lot of rigorous drills to find their rhythm back. It's silly to expect your no.6 to be the top run scorer.

Although I would say the English batting order needs shuffling. Bairstow is batting way too low at no.7 and should have the freedom of batting with batters and play his natural game.
 
With his body no longer allowing him to bowl seam regularly (though he is learning off spin!), Stokes seems to be reinventing himself as a top/middle order specialist batsman.

405 runs at an average of 45 in the Ashes series, including an excellent 155.

Good effort and back in form.
 
James said:
With his body no longer allowing him to bowl seam regularly (though he is learning off spin!), Stokes seems to be reinventing himself as a top/middle order specialist batsman.

405 runs at an average of 45 in the Ashes series, including an excellent 155.

Good effort and back in form.
Click to expand...
Some people said he should maybe in some conditions bat number 3, yes pope is still to come back into side, but it's a good option.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
2023 hasn't been kind to Stokes and company in red-ball cricket, seems like they're navigating a rough patch on the cricket field.

Matches 8
Win 4
Lost 3
Draw 1
 
Mamoon said:
Stokes is a phenomenal cricketer. I love watching him play, there is no doubt in my mind he is one of the all-time greats. The 2019 World Cup and the Headingley Test will be forever etched in history.

However, I’m sorry but the selfishness that he has shown in the last couple of years means he can no longer be seen as an inspiration.

The way he sat out two hugely important assignments - the Test series vs India (which England drew) and the T20 World Cup in Dubai (England lost the semifinal) sent a very wrong message. It was a clear cut example of putting yourself and your needs above the team.

Stokes would not have died had he played. He should have toughened up. England could have won both assignments with his contributions.

Similarly, the way he selfishly retired from ODIs 12 months before the World Cup was also pathetic to see. He retired because he doesn’t care since he has already won the World Cup, and the fact that he is still England’s premier all-rounder means nothing to him.

If this was about workload, he should have retired from T20Is. He cannot afford to retire from that format because if he does, he will risk his IPL contract.

Joe Root is always there for his team. Every format, every match, he is there to play for his country. He is available.

When England were losing Test matches left, right and center in his captaincy and he was getting criticized like no tomorrow, he didn’t do this mental health drama and run away. He was still there, and he was practically hounded out of the role.

Stokes was an inspiration but not anymore. He is only an inspiration for those who aspire to put themselves - and their needs - above the team’s.

ECB should not have rewarded this deserter with leadership role. It sent a wrong message and encouraged young players to put themselves above the team. It is not the right approach. Stokes should have paid a price for what he did.
Click to expand...
Selfishness? What about the guy again missing test mathes for personal reasons?
Find him 1000 reasons.
I can see you are still on the same agenda!
 
"I Couldn't Turn Down": Ben Stokes On Leading England In Tests

England Test skipper Ben Stokes opened up about leading the side in Tests and said that it was an opportunity that he couldn't turn down.

"I Couldn't Turn Down": Ben Stokes On Leading England In Tests

England Test skipper Ben Stokes opened up about leading the side in Tests and said that it was an opportunity that he couldn't turn down. After registering a 28-run victory against India in the first Test on the back of Ollie Pope's 196 and a seven-wicket haul from debutant Tom Hartley, England will look to lead the series 2-0 when they take on hosts in the second match on Friday at Rajasekhara Reddy ACA-VDCA Cricket Stadium. In the opening match, the southpaw played a knock of 70 runs in the first innings. The all-rounder asserted that he never aspired to lead the England side in the longest format of the game. He said that this is a role he has enjoyed.

"It's something I never had any aspirations to do or really thought about too much, to be honest. I never really had too much responsibility around captaining or anything, either in age-group cricket or any other level. I had a little taste of it with the Durham Academy. This opportunity presented itself to me and it was something I couldn't turn down. It's a role I've grown into, it's a role that I've really enjoyed," Stokes told JioCinema.

"I love everything that comes with it, the responsibility of looking after people from different types of angles. Whether it be out in the field or away from the field. Understanding different individuals and personalities, because in a team sport, you've got a lot of people and not everyone is the same. That's helped me mature as a person. Just really enjoying the responsibility of driving something forward," the left-hand batter added.

He also talked about the 'Bazball' approach which the team has adopted after the arrival of former New Zealand skipper, Brendon McCullum as the head coach of the national team in Tests. He said that the phrase 'Bazball' is created by the media.

"It's a phrase that was created by the media. Something that we try and stay away from. It just came from what we have managed to do over the last two years and how we've played. We don't necessarily like it, Baz hates it! Whenever that word pops up, we just try to say that's how England plays Test cricket," Stokes concluded.

Source: NDTV
 
Most successful Test captains by win percentage (minimum 20 Tests):

🇦🇺 Steve Waugh - 72%
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Ben Stokes - 70%
🇦🇺 Donald Bradman - 63%
🇦🇺 Ricky Ponting - 62%
🇮🇳 Virat Kohli - 59%
 
I'm my opinion Len Hutton was one of England's best captains. He won back the Ashes in 1953 and retained it in Australia plus series wins in West Indies and against New Zealand, India etc. Under him England dominated the 50's.
 
The match was won, thanks to the masterclass by Pope. What is all this hype and reward being given to Stokes here?

Root won a test match in India last tour too and he won it with his superb batting but then the rest of series, his team faded away.

England and Stokes have comparatively weaker opponents to deal with but I am still to see any influential performance from Stokes in India over the course of his three tours to India.
 
James said:
Most successful Test captains by win percentage (minimum 20 Tests):

🇦🇺 Steve Waugh - 72%
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Ben Stokes - 70%
🇦🇺 Donald Bradman - 63%
🇦🇺 Ricky Ponting - 62%
🇮🇳 Virat Kohli - 59%
Click to expand...
@Mamoon

‘His captaincy is failing, Joe Root should have stayed captain’.
 
Forum363 said:
@Mamoon

‘His captaincy is failing, Joe Root should have stayed captain’.
Click to expand...
Bazball is a scam.

More than half of its achievements are built on beating an awful Pakistan team and chasing 300+ against India in the fourth innings when they were being led by Bumrah, his first and only match as captain and he was clueless.

Bazball will lose 4-1 in India, the exact same score line that Root achieved in 2021 and his sole win was much more dominant.

Bazball also drew the home Ashes 2-2. Again, the exact same score line as 2019.

England were lucky Lyon got injured after the second Test. When he played, it was 2-0 Australia and Bazball went for a hike.

Stokes is basically one or two thumpings away from bailing out on England and not looking back. He has done that twice in the last 3 years because he is the most selfish cricketer I have ever seen.

Watch him quit again and do the mental health drama after Bazball crashes and burns. The glorified Shahid Afridi (McCullum) will also run away and coach New Zealand or get an IPL deal.

Bazball is a rubbish and unsustainable way of playing Test cricket.
 
Ben Stokes batting stats in Tests cricket :-

Career Average - 36
Average away from England - 33
Average in Asia - 29.9(1 hundred in 22 tests)

Except South Africa, he averages below 40 everywhere. In Australia and India, the average is around 28-29. No doubt, the Headingley knock was outstanding but it didn't helped England get back the Ashes, it was retained by Australia only.

These are not anywhere close to ATG level given he averages 32 with bowl and has only 197 wickets in 99 tests.

He is basically a Botham level batsman and a Kallis level bowler.
 
I think he is the best English all-rounder of all time.

He won 2 world titles and he contributed in both of those finals.

He is better than Ian Botham and Flintoff.
 
sweep_shot said:
I think he is the best English all-rounder of all time.

He won 2 world titles and he contributed in both of those finals.

He is better than Ian Botham and Flintoff.
Click to expand...

Travis Head won 2 world titles and he contributed in both of those finals also. Stokes knock in T20 Final was okayish but Head's knock was standout and central headline in both the ODI and test finals.

Head must be better than Gilchrist, Hayden and Warner.
 
Ab Fan said:
Travis Head won 2 world titles and he contributed in both of those finals also. Stokes knock in T20 Final was okayish but Head's knock was standout and central headline in both the ODI and test finals.

Head must be better than Gilchrist, Hayden and Warner.
Click to expand...

Stokes played many other great knocks. For example, he once scored 250+ in South Africa (a tough place to bat on).

The impact Stokes has had is much bigger than achievements of Botham and Flintoff.

Gilchrist won 3 world titles. Hayden won 2. Warner won 4.
 
sweep_shot said:
Stokes played many other great knocks. For example, he once scored 250+ in South Africa (a tough place to bat on).

The impact Stokes has had is much bigger than achievements of Botham and Flintoff.

Gilchrist won 3 world titles. Hayden won 2. Warner won 4.
Click to expand...

Stokes scored a 250 on a flat deck in Cape Town which was a drawn test match. I remember that game very well. South Africa themselves got some 600 runs.

Stokes impact is not bigger than achievements of Botham or Flintoff in Tests cricket. Flintoff won a home Ashes with his outstanding performance vs an ATG Australian side. Stokes has won England a home test but he didn't won them a home series vs the 2019 or 2023 Australian side who are not comparable to ATG Australian side.

Stokes has not won a Test match for England in Australia. The results in last several tours of Australia have been either 5-0 or 4-0. In Test cricket, Stokes impact is probably worse than Flintoff let alone Botham who was about as good a batsman as Stokes but took double the wickets of Stokes tally.

In white ball cricket, Stokes has an ATG knock in Final which will be remembered for ages but otherwise he has a pretty ordinary ODI career. Flintoff had a superb ODI career averaging 24 with bowl and 32 with bat. He was a very good death over bowler for England in mid 2000s. The World T20 final standout performer was Sam Curran who picked three wickets and reduced Pakistan to 136.

Head has performed in both the finals as standout performer which straightaway setup the win for Australia. Gilchrist was standout performer in 1, Hayden in 0 and Warner in 0 finals.
 
Ab Fan said:
Stokes scored a 250 on a flat deck in Cape Town which was a drawn test match. I remember that game very well. South Africa themselves got some 600 runs.

Stokes impact is not bigger than achievements of Botham or Flintoff in Tests cricket. Flintoff won a home Ashes with his outstanding performance vs an ATG Australian side. Stokes has won England a home test but he didn't won them a home series vs this Australian side who is not comparable to ATG Australian side.

Stokes has not won a Test match for England in Australia. The results in last several tours of Australia have been either 5-0 or 4-0. In Test cricket, Stokes impact is probably worse than Flintoff let alone Botham who was about as good a batsman as Stokes but took double the wickets of Stokes tally.

In white ball cricket, Stokes has an ATG knock in Final which will be remembered for ages but otherwise he has a pretty ordinary ODI career. Flintoff had a superb ODI career averaging 24 with bowl and 32 with bat. He was a very good death over bowler for England in mid 2000s. The World T20 final standout performer was Sam Curran who picked three wickets and reduced Pakistan to 136.

Head has performed in both the finals as standout performer which straightaway setup the win for Australia. Gilchrist was standout performer in 1, Hayden in 0 and Warner in 0 finals.
Click to expand...

I know Indians like to downplay World Cup successes because India haven't won an ICC trophy since 2013. But, that doesn't mean World Cups are not important.

Without Stokes, England probably wouldn't have won 2019 WC and 2022 World T20.

Apart from 2005 Ashes, what has Flintoff won? Stokes achieved far more.
 
sweep_shot said:
I know Indians like to downplay World Cup successes because India haven't won an ICC trophy since 2013. But, that doesn't mean World Cups are not important.

Without Stokes, England probably wouldn't have won 2019 WC and 2022 World T20.

Apart from 2005 Ashes, what has Flintoff won? Stokes achieved far more.
Click to expand...

No, you are just showing your hypocrisy here as you are not consistent with your statements.

Indians don't have anything to downplay by responding to troll statements like Stokes is a greater all rounder than Botham or Flintoff. We could care least about any of the three names. But I am responding to you here as a neutral observer.

If we go by your logic, Travis Head won two World title with performance in World Cup Finals and World Test Championship Finals. That's two of the biggest matches a cricketer can perform. So, by your logic, he must be better than Gilchrist, Hayden and Warner because he has already performed and won in two finals being standout performer as compared to the other three names who weren't standout performers in more than 1 finals( Warner and Hayden weren't standout performer in any).

To conclude, it's a pretty illogical argument because winning a trophy is ultimately a function of team and although credit must be given to standout performer but this doesn't make him a better test cricketer or even overall a better cricketer than other all time greats of the game.
 
sweep_shot said:
I know Indians like to downplay World Cup successes because India haven't won an ICC trophy since 2013. But, that doesn't mean World Cups are not important.

Without Stokes, England probably wouldn't have won 2019 WC and 2022 World T20.

Apart from 2005 Ashes, what has Flintoff won? Stokes achieved far more.
Click to expand...
True, I wish India had the wc success that Bangladesh did.
Gambhir must be better than lara and kallis considering that he won 2 wcs and they won 0.
In England, the ashes will always the holy grail, the most important thing that a player can win.
Stokes hasn't won a single away ashes match, hasn't won an ashes series at home
 
Ab Fan said:
No, you are just showing your hypocrisy here as you are not consistent with your statements.

Indians don't have anything to downplay by responding to troll statements like Stokes is a greater all rounder than Botham or Flintoff. We could care least about any of the three names. But I am responding to you here as a neutral observer.

If we go by your logic, Travis Head won two World title with performance in World Cup Finals and World Test Championship Finals. That's two of the biggest matches a cricketer can perform. So, by your logic, he must be better than Gilchrist, Hayden and Warner because he has already performed and won in two finals being standout performer as compared to the other three names.

To conclude, it's a pretty illogical argument because winning a trophy is ultimately a function of team and although credit must be given to standout performer but this doesn't make him a better test cricketer or even overall a better cricketer than other all time greats of the game.
Click to expand...

What has Flintoff won other than 2005 Ashes?

Let's check both of their stats. Shall we?

=========================================

Freddie Flintoff's ODI runs: 3394 (average of 32.01)
Ben Stokes's ODI runs: 3463 (41.22)

Freddie Flintoff's Test runs: 3845 (average of 31.77)
Ben Stokes's Test runs: 6251 (average of 36.34)

==========================================

In bowling Flintoff did better. But, overall, Stokes wins easily.
 
Statpadder Inc said:
True, I wish India had the wc success that Bangladesh did.
Gambhir must be better than lara and kallis considering that he won 2 wcs and they won 0.
In England, the ashes will always the holy grail, the most important thing that a player can win.
Stokes hasn't won a single away ashes match, hasn't won an ashes series at home
Click to expand...


Stokes was let down by teammates. He singlehandedly made it 2-2. Otherwise, it could've been worse for England.

Stokes has achieved objective successes. Flintoff's successes were mostly subjective (apart from 2005 Ashes, very little to show for).
 
sweep_shot said:
What has Flintoff won other than 2005 Ashes?

Let's check both of their stats. Shall we?

=========================================

Freddie Flintoff's ODI runs: 3394 (average of 32.01)
Ben Stokes's ODI runs: 3463 (41.22)

Freddie Flintoff's Test runs: 3845 (average of 31.77)
Ben Stokes's Test runs: 6251 (average of 36.34)

==========================================

In bowling Flintoff did better. But, overall, Stokes wins easily.
Click to expand...

Okay, so it seems you have already given up on Botham so comparing Stokes with Flintoff.

Stokes is not better than Flintoff either. Flintoff winning an Ashes vs ATG Australian side is alone as good as Stokes whole test career. That is England's biggest test series win of this millenium. Stokes has not contributed to a single win for England in India or Australia inspite of having toured thrice. That's a massive chink in his armor. He doesn't have a great test record, his batting is basically Botham level and bowling is Kallis level.

In white ball cricket, yes, Stokes was standout performer in 2019 World Cup Final and that's his career's biggest achievement but Flintoff is still regarded as England's greatest ODI cricketer.

You didn't compared their bowling averages, Stokes averages 41 with bowl while Flintoff averages 24 with bowl.

Stokes has to perform and do something worth remembering in either Australia or India to be considered a great of the game or better than Flintoff for that matter.
 
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