What's new

[VIDEOS] Indian pace attack the greatest of all time: Mohammed Shami

Devadwal said:
First try to read what was im saying " if They can win current England series and next south africa tour later this year "then they can be called one of best attack ever not the best ever .
Click to expand...

If and buts don't count. Talk about ground realities and facts.
 
Mamoon said:
If BCCI bothers to play PCB, India would smash Pakistan like no tomorrow.

Winning in Pakistan means anything to India anymore. They are lightyears ahead of us. We need to stop pretending that we are still India’s rivals - we aren’t, they have moved on from our level.

This is India’s greatest bowling attack ever. Even their reserve bowlers are top notch, which is why they won in Australia against their full-strength lineup, something that no other reserve bowling attack can do.
Click to expand...

Pak is a weak side but to say for India to defeat Pak in our own country does not matter is completely false. India would be celebrating like crazy even if the defeated the current Pak side away from home. Back in the 1990's when Pak was the much better side defeating India was always very sweet even in a one day match in Sharjah.

The Indian attack is good by their meagre standards, saying it is one of the best ever off all time is going way over the top. Liverpool and Man Utd will always be rivals, this was also the case when Man Utd were struggling in the 1980's and Liverpool in the 1990's. The historical rivalry between countries and clubs is always there. The satisfaction and feeling of defeating the arch rival can never be substituted.

No one is saying the current Pak side has anything on India. This thread is about how good the current Indian pace attack is.
 
India attacks look good because the batting is so poor now.No team has more than one good batman except may be India.
England :Joe Root, Aus:Steve Smith NZ :Kane Williamson Pakistan :Babar(?) SA not sure may be Quinton BD :Tamim ? West Indies :Jason Holder ?
In the past every team had at least four world class batsmen.The openers were outstanding.I don't think any current team could face the West Indian pace attack of late 70s and early 80s.It was relentless.Batsmen actually scared of facing them.
 
PakLFC said:
Pak is a weak side but to say for India to defeat Pak in our own country does not matter is completely false. India would be celebrating like crazy even if the defeated the current Pak side away from home. Back in the 1990's when Pak was the much better side defeating India was always very sweet even in a one day match in Sharjah.

The Indian attack is good by their meagre standards, saying it is one of the best ever off all time is going way over the top. Liverpool and Man Utd will always be rivals, this was also the case when Man Utd were struggling in the 1980's and Liverpool in the 1990's. The historical rivalry between countries and clubs is always there. The satisfaction and feeling of defeating the arch rival can never be substituted.

No one is saying the current Pak side has anything on India. This thread is about how good the current Indian pace attack is.
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood my point.

If India wins in Pakistan today they will be happy just like they will be happy if they win in West Indies or Sri Lanka. However, not playing Pakistan makes no difference to their legacy because Pakistan is no longer a top side.

Winning or losing against Pakistan means nothin anymore. It is all about performances against India, Australia, England and New Zealand.
 
Mamoon said:
I think you misunderstood my point.

If India wins in Pakistan today they will be happy just like they will be happy if they win in West Indies or Sri Lanka. However, not playing Pakistan makes no difference to their legacy because Pakistan is no longer a top side.

Winning or losing against Pakistan means nothin anymore. It is all about performances against India, Australia, England and New Zealand.
Click to expand...

I understood you well. "Winning or losing against Pakistan means nothin anymore." To many defeating this currently poor Pak side may indeeed mean nothing. To India it will still mean the world make no mistake about this. They'll rightfully say "we beat Pakistan, it's not our fault their rubbish."
 
Countdown for 200 test wickets for Mohammad Shami and 100 test wickets for Jasprit Bumrah.
 
I don't know about greatest, but Indian bowlers have walked the talked in last 5 years. Haven't seen a bowling lineup do so well in every single country and condition in a long time.

At home

Ashwin - 160 wkts at 22.66
Jadeja - 107 wkts at 23.57
U Yadav - 73 wkts at 24.75
Shami - 51 wkts at 22.05
I Sharma - 41 wkts at 25.51

In SENA (away)

Bumrah - 70 wkts at 23.31
Shami - 55 wkts at 28.16
I Sharma - 42 wkts at 22.02
Ashwin - 39 wkts at 29.97
Jadeja - 23 wkts at 26.95

All top 5 wicket takers for India, both home and in SENA away, averaged under 30 since 6 Aug 2016. Sadly India hasn't been able to dominate other teams as its batting has been often mediocre.
 
Every time there's a series in England we hear these statements, every time we lose.
 
Pace attack is excellent but not the greatest.

However, as an overall attack with the combination of Ashwin and Jadeja, it is up there with the greatest attack of all-time.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
I don't know about greatest, but Indian bowlers have walked the talked in last 5 years. Haven't seen a bowling lineup do so well in every single country and condition in a long time.

At home

Ashwin - 160 wkts at 22.66
Jadeja - 107 wkts at 23.57
U Yadav - 73 wkts at 24.75
Shami - 51 wkts at 22.05
I Sharma - 41 wkts at 25.51

In SENA (away)

Bumrah - 70 wkts at 23.31
Shami - 55 wkts at 28.16
I Sharma - 42 wkts at 22.02
Ashwin - 39 wkts at 29.97
Jadeja - 23 wkts at 26.95

All top 5 wicket takers for India, both home and in SENA away, averaged under 30 since 6 Aug 2016. Sadly India hasn't been able to dominate other teams as its batting has been often mediocre.
Click to expand...

Has India's batting been mediocre, or are opposition's bowlers bowling as well as India's or are the conditions themselves slightly in favor of bowling in recent Test matches? It's probably a combination of
all three.

The very fact that there is a perception that there are so many stand out (premiere) Test bowlers, and only a handful of standout Test batsmen all around the World, only further bolsters the fact that conditions have been tipping on the bowlers' side in recent years.

I wouldn't complain about the conditions though, Test matches have become compelling viewing since.
 
OmarKhan99 said:
Has India's batting been mediocre, or are opposition's bowlers bowling as well as India's or are the conditions themselves slightly in favor of bowling in recent Test matches? It's probably a combination of
all three.

The very fact that there is a perception that there are so many stand out (premiere) Test bowlers, and only a handful of standout Test batsmen all around the World, only further bolsters the fact that conditions have been tipping on the bowlers' side in recent years.

I wouldn't complain about the conditions though, Test matches have become compelling viewing since.
Click to expand...

I would say it's been pretty mediocre especially in the last 2 years. Kohli, Pujara and Rahane are the 3 most senior batsmen in test team and all have been in awful form. Rohit/Agarwal/Rahul/Gill/Vihari etc haven't done that well either. Only Indian batsman that has been world class is Pant and to a lesser extent Jadeja.

I do agree it's a bowling friendly era though. England batting has been similarly awful, and South Africa barely exist. Only Australia and NZ have consistently great batsmen atm. But yeah, a team needs equally strong bowling and batting to win, or one department at least has to be close enough.
 
The current bowling attack is probably the best in the world considering how good they are bowling in the sub continent.
For cricket lovers it would have been great sight if this Indian attack would have played against the Australian, English and South African sides of the 2000-2010.
I am amazed by the fall of batting standards of these countries.
 
Jasprit Bumrah and Mohammad Siraj- the most potent fast bowling prospect in the world

Arguably, the two best pace bowling prospect going around in the world. It is indeed a sight to see these two young Indian bowlers bowl their heart out and make the opposition hop and duck in their own backyard. Both these guys are young, they have pace, fire and aggression.

Indian team is blessed to have both Bumrah and Siraj at the peak of their powers, both at age of 26 and can play for India over the next 8-10 years across all formats.
 
Last edited:
Two Tests matches, 40 wickets and all taken by Indian fast bowlers - The golden generation of Indian fast bowlers in cricket history.
 
It really does not matter if this Indian pace battery is world’s worst or best. This is irrelevant on the ground.

What matters is that the Indian team and Indian bowlers think that they are the best pace attack ever. And they have got results that further validates their confidence.

This is a huge difference. It has never ever happened with India before. This confidence can do magic and has done it again today.

May be Pak had pace battery once for a couple years when it thought that they are the best ever. And they got results then.
 
Undoubtedly one of the all time great pace attacks.

Siraj has been a great addition. What a complete bowler.

Bumrah is a champion. Has really turned it on post WTC.

Shami goes on and off...but when he is ON...he truly is ON.

Ishant is a workhorse who will hit you hard at times. Struggling with some injury I think.
 
This is indeed the Golden generation of Indian Fast Bowling. Never ever we had a pool of 10 world class bowlers for all formats.

- Siraj & Bumrah are just 27 and will easily lead our attack for next 5 years.

- Ishant, Shami & Yadav are not going anywhere for next 2-3 years. They will lend their experience.

- Shardul is an ideal 4th change fast bowler who can bat & take crucial wickets.

- Bhuvi, D Chahar, Natrajan, Saini and Prasidh offers depth in white ball format.
 
AMSS said:
Hain? Why would the credit of those bowlers go to Kohli who can barely sort his batting or handle his emotions? How about crediting it to the bowlers who have put in the hours and persevered?

Please, stop this nauseating Kohli worship.
Click to expand...
Calm down. He is stating the truth. There is no denying that Virat Kohli created and backed this bowling unit. Credit goes to both Kohli and Bharat Arun. :inti
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Calm down. He is stating the truth. There is no denying that Virat Kohli created and backed this bowling unit. Credit goes to both Kohli and Bharat Arun. :inti
Click to expand...

Simmer down yourself, uncle. I choose to give credit to the bowlers, mmk?
 
Artaxerxes said:
India attacks look good because the batting is so poor now.No team has more than one good batman except may be India.
England :Joe Root, Aus:Steve Smith NZ :Kane Williamson Pakistan :Babar(?) SA not sure may be Quinton BD :Tamim ? West Indies :Jason Holder ?
In the past every team had at least four world class batsmen.The openers were outstanding.I don't think any current team could face the West Indian pace attack of late 70s and early 80s.It was relentless.Batsmen actually scared of facing them.
Click to expand...

This. Test Batting standards as a whole have tanked compared to the glory years of the past. Just compare this England team to that which included the likes of Cook, Trott and KP. No comparison. The openers here are a joke.
 
IcedCoffee said:
This. Test Batting standards as a whole have tanked compared to the glory years of the past. Just compare this England team to that which included the likes of Cook, Trott and KP. No comparison. The openers here are a joke.
Click to expand...

In 2007 England did have Strauss, Kevin pietresen, Cook, Bell, Collingwood, Vaughan. Zaheer khan and RP singh just 2 bowlers were able to get the better of England and India won the series. There is no way that attack is better than this attack.
 
Dhoni was never in favor 5 bowler theory. He also provided stupid instructions to his bowlers. He never encouraged pacers like Kohli is doing. There is a significant change in attitude among pacers. Ganguly was probably the last one to do that. Basically, he has managed to develop a unit that feeds of each other. I won't say greatest of all time. Definitely up there. Even 2 years back they were compared with West indie quartet statistically. They measure up to them.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
Dhoni was never in favor 5 bowler theory. He also provided stupid instructions to his bowlers. He never encouraged pacers like Kohli is doing. There is a significant change in attitude among pacers. Ganguly was probably the last one to do that. Basically, he has managed to develop a unit that feeds of each other. I won't say greatest of all time. Definitely up there. Even 2 years back they were compared with West indie quartet statistically. They measure up to them.
Click to expand...

Dhoni always preferred spin to pace - do you think the fact that he was personally a better WK against spin influenced his selections/preferences?
 
dildilpak said:
Dhoni always preferred spin to pace - do you think the fact that he was personally a better WK against spin influenced his selections/preferences?
Click to expand...

IT was a widespread opinion Dhoni didn't like raw pacers to protect his hand. Also during his captaincy, he never had the tendency to play 4 seamers. Dhoni's record in England. Lost 7 out of 9 tests. Most of them a comprehensive thrashing. Even when India won a test at lords he went in with a defensive approach and ended up losing remaining 3 tests. In the 2nd test he went with 3 seamers plus a spinner. 188 overs bowled. 3 seamers shared 156 of them. Bhajji bowled 12 overs. He deliberately instructed Ishan to bowl bouncers on a wicket that required fuller length. Just beacuse he prized out a few wickets in the previous test where India won, he thought it was a great idea to persist. Ishant when he made debut was known for inswingers. He gradually lost it under Dhoni. He regained only after he left.
 
India now Ace of Pace
Four-pronged attack brings different qualities to the table, creating an irresistible concoction that blew England away.

Ten English wickets to take in less than two sessions. A fifth-day pitch with critics sighing about the absence of Ravichandran Ashwin. The match situation where a draw would have been easily seen as an honourable result at the start of the day.

All these factors could have prompted the Indian pacers to be relaxed. No one would have cussed them. Instead, they wowed with their talent, intimidated with their presence without resorting to too many bouncers, and showcased their creativity to break through any English resistance.

Jasprit Bumrah dug deep to produce a vicious leg-cutter to remove the seemingly impregnable Joe Root, Ishant Sharma nailed a perfect nip-backer to take out the in-form Jonny Bairstow, Mohammed Shami curled out opener Dom Sibley with a ball that would have tested Geoffrey Boycott, and Mohammed Siraj crafted a straightener that leapt to knock down the resolute Jos Buttler.

They didn’t just do the regular things extraordinarily well, but were also very creative. When it seemed Ollie Robinson wouldn’t budge, Bumrah produced one of the great slower balls in the dying make-or-break minutes of the Test match. When Mooen Ali kept pushing his bat inside the line to his away-curlers, Siraj forced his hands by getting a full ball to slant away from the line of the stumps.

This abundance of riches – a four-pronged pace attack – is a far cry from the early and mid-1970s, the worst of times for Indian fast bowling when Abid Ali used to share the new ball with Eknath Solkar, or occasionally, a certain Sunil Gavaskar. The current Indian fast bowling cartel is a four-pronged attack bullying and battering opposition batsmen, apart from taking 39 England wickets in the first two Tests. On a fifth-day Lord’s pitch which, on the face of it, demanded Ashwin’s guile, the four Indian fast bowlers cleaned up the hosts in 51.5 overs to win the Test.

India’s Jasprit Bumrah celebrates after taking the wicket of England’s Joe Root. (AP Photo)
Bumrah and Shami were the expected threats for Joe Root and company. But Siraj and Ishant, too, raised their game to the level of seriously impacting the outcome of the Test. Ishant’s double blow to remove Moeen Ali and Sam Curran in the first innings brought his team back into the contest. Siraj’s dismissals of the two batsmen off successive balls during England’s second innings took India closer to victory. Ishant carried rustiness and the pressure of being picked over Ashwin for the game, but he came through with flying colours, with a match haul of 5/82. Siraj played at Lord’s for the first time, returning with a match haul of 8/126. The batting heroics of Shami and Bumrah took India to a winning position. Team effort secured the victory.

Brave call proved right

The Lord’s pitch had grass, but much shorter in length than what was on offer at Trent Bridge. The surface gradually became very good for batting. Understandably, leaving out Ashwin had raised many an eyebrow. Kohli, though, stuck to his four-pacers template, using them as attacking options. His decision was spectacularly vindicated. The much talked-about Lord’s slope played a part in the decision-making.

Both Ishant and Siraj are essentially incoming bowlers who don’t have very potent outswingers. However, they can make the ball hold its line and their ability to use the seam made them very effective, bowling both up and down the slope.

Mohammed Shami celebrates the dismissal of an English batsman. (AP)
Lord’s has an east-west slope, eight feet from the top to the bottom, running downhill from the left of the pavilion diagonally across the pitch to the media box at the Nursery End. Usually, bowlers with a natural inswinger prefer to bowl with the slope. When they bowl up the hill, their stock deliveries sometimes straighten. Siraj’s strength is making the ball jag back off the surface. He intelligently used the slope to dismiss Sibley in the first innings.

A plan was laid out with two close-in fielders on the leg-side. Siraj bowled a length ball on Sibley’s pads, which seamed off the surface. The England opener was caught by the slope quagmire. He played early and the leading edge went to KL Rahul at short mid-wicket.

Siraj is fast becoming important for India because of his wicket-taking ability. In Australia last winter, he was the team’s highest wicket-taker, leading a weakened pace attack.

The 27-year-old has given the Indian seam attack a new dimension. This pace battery is a complete package – Bumrah’s all-round skill, Shami’s swing and deceptive bouncer, Ishant’s movement and bounce, and Siraj’s seam and ability to bowl long spells. Three of them can go past 140kph. Also, it was astounding the way Siraj successfully negotiated the slope in his first Test at Lord’s. Former India medium pacer Manoj Prabhakar was impressed.

“He clean-bowled one (Haseeb Hameed) with a cross-seamer. It skidded off the surface rather than seaming in down the hill. The batsman played inside the line and was bowled. You need to bowl the right length (good length) to take full advantage of the slope, which Siraj did. Also, when he bowls in-swing, his arm is straight, which is important for a bowler at Lord’s. And he can bowl from close to the stumps,” Prabhakar told The Indian Express.

Veteran comes to party

As for Ishant, Buttler’s wicket in the first innings triggered a revival. An inswinger went through the gate, as Buttler tried to play an expansive drive. Once again, the slope played its part. Ishant was a horses-for-courses selection at Lord’s. Seven years ago, his career-best 7/74 had won India a Test at this venue. At his happy hunting ground, Ishant was back in his element.

“Your arm needs to be straight and high to make full use of the slope. When Ishant bowls inswingers, he bowls them with a high-arm action, a reason why he is successful at Lord’s,” Prabhakar observed.

Virat Kohli, centre right and India’s Ishant Sharma, centre left, reacts after the video review of India’s Ishant Sharma’s appeal for lbw on England’s Jonny Bairstow was given out. (AP Photo)
Dilip Vengsarkar, the ‘Lord of Lord’s’ with three centuries at the venue, agreed that the slope can confuse batsmen. “See, in England the ball moves. It’s not that the ball is coming down the slope or moving away up the hill. The ball is moving in the air as well and you have to negotiate that. The right approach is to not have the slope factor at the back of your mind, play the ball on merit and play late, like Rohit Sharma does. I’m very happy with the way India bowled. About Siraj, he always bowls to take wickets. Ishant used all his experience,” the former India captain told this paper.

Playing open-chested became England batsmen’s biggest problem, Root excluded. For example, Sibley got out to a Shami outswinger in the second innings, getting square-on in his stance while going for a defensive prod. “Cricket is a sideways-on game when you bat and when you bowl. It has not changed for 200 years,” Geoffrey Boycott wrote in his Telegraph (London) column.

https://indianexpress.com/article/sports/cricket/india-now-ace-of-pace-7459304/
 
PakLFC said:
India has good bowlers. To say they are they best attack off all time is still ridiculous.
Click to expand...

How do you measure that anyways? Indian team has 5 very good fast bowlers and 2 great spinners of this generation. Which other attack in history had that much depth ?

We benched a bowler who has 150 wickets and bowls at 140+ regularly and a spinner who has 400+ wickets and the fastest to get there and has 5 test 100’s on top of that.

The guy playing as an allrounder and 2nd spin option has 200+ wickets with a 25 average.

How many teams have had such kind of depth.
 
PakLFC said:
India has good bowlers. To say they are they best attack off all time is still ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Without looking at stats, I am going to wager that as a bowling group, this India attack in the last 5 years has numbers similar to the ATG attacks of West Indies in 80s and AUS in early 2000s.

The difference, so to speak, is on two accounts. Indian attack doesn't yet have the legendary names attached to them yet - Bumrah and Ashwin will get there eventually.

The second and more important difference is that West Indies and Australian attacks did it for well over a decade. This Indian attack has yet to match that longevity/durability.

PS: Missed South Africa. They had just as formidable an attack as WI and AUS although less glamorized.
 
Devadwal said:
I repeat again this Indian attack is one of the best attack of all time but not best ever .
Click to expand...

Its not even close mate I can name two dozen attacks over the decades that were better than this attack

Maybe its the best ever indian attack judging by their low standards but its not even in thr top 10 ever
 
Zaz said:
Its not even close mate I can name two dozen attacks over the decades that were better than this attack

Maybe its the best ever indian attack judging by their low standards but its not even in thr top 10 ever
Click to expand...

I think you should. With stats to back that claim. Thanks.
 
Zaz said:
Its not even close mate I can name two dozen attacks over the decades that were better than this attack
Click to expand...

Please do. More than the list I am interested to see if you didn’t randomly pull that comment from thin air.
 
All time great attack perhaps second only to WI of the late 70s and early 80s. But probably even better if you consider quality of spinners as well. WI didn't have a ATG spinner remember.

Since Kohli took over captaincy,
Ashwin 299 wickets @ 22.5
Jadeja 173 @ 23.4
Shami 153 @ 25.4
Ishant 125 @ 24.6
Umesh 106 @29.3
Bumrah 95@22.62
Bhuvaneshar 35@22.7
Siraj 27@26.29

Not a single bowler (with at least 25 wickets) is averaging above 30 over the last 7 years or so. That is simply an incredible stat.
 
Zaz said:
Its not even close mate I can name two dozen attacks over the decades that were better than this attack

Maybe its the best ever indian attack judging by their low standards but its not even in thr top 10 ever
Click to expand...

Please go ahead & name two dozen attacks who were better than this indian attacked.
 
AMSS said:
Without looking at stats, I am going to wager that as a bowling group, this India attack in the last 5 years has numbers similar to the ATG attacks of West Indies in 80s and AUS in early 2000s.

The difference, so to speak, is on two accounts. Indian attack doesn't yet have the legendary names attached to them yet - Bumrah and Ashwin will get there eventually.

The second and more important difference is that West Indies and Australian attacks did it for well over a decade. This Indian attack has yet to match that longevity/durability.

PS: Missed South Africa. They had just as formidable an attack as WI and AUS although less glamorized.
Click to expand...

Good attack for sure but not amongst the best just because Waqar says so. Could be that he has not seen the great West Indian and Aussie attacks. This is also because India does not have an out and out fast bowler like a Waqar or Marshall.

India has to win in the West Indies, New Zealand and Pakistan to be considered as an all time great attack. You haven't even won this series yet!
 
Local.Dada said:
How do you measure that anyways? Indian team has 5 very good fast bowlers and 2 great spinners of this generation. Which other attack in history had that much depth ?

We benched a bowler who has 150 wickets and bowls at 140+ regularly and a spinner who has 400+ wickets and the fastest to get there and has 5 test 100’s on top of that.

The guy playing as an allrounder and 2nd spin option has 200+ wickets with a 25 average.

How many teams have had such kind of depth.
Click to expand...

Look at past attacks to see who had done what. Are you saying this attack is the best off all time?? As I say firstly you have not won this series then even if you do there are a few other countries to conquer away from home. You know the Aussie side of the 1990's or 2000's was considered the best ever after they had won home and away everywhere. I would also say this if Pak had defeated Australia and England in their own backyard.
 
Sir Alex said:
All time great attack perhaps second only to WI of the late 70s and early 80s. But probably even better if you consider quality of spinners as well. WI didn't have a ATG spinner remember.

Since Kohli took over captaincy,
Ashwin 299 wickets @ 22.5
Jadeja 173 @ 23.4
Shami 153 @ 25.4
Ishant 125 @ 24.6
Umesh 106 @29.3
Bumrah 95@22.62
Bhuvaneshar 35@22.7
Siraj 27@26.29

Not a single bowler (with at least 25 wickets) is averaging above 30 over the last 7 years or so. That is simply an incredible stat.
Click to expand...

Probably not the greatest but definitly the great in the past half decade. If they can do this for another 4-5 years they will be among the top 3
 
To say current Indian pace attack is greatest of all time is moronic. West Indies at their peak was great pace attack ever. It started with Robert Holding Garner and lasted till Bishop retired. Ambrose Walsh carried it for few more years but they had no quality backup. Australia had the greatest versatile attack with a great mixture of pace and spin at their peak. They had all bases covered with Mcgrath , Gellispie , Lee , Warne and Mcgill. Pakistan came close in terms of versatility from time to time during 2 W's time with a decent spinner in support like Mushtaq.
Current Indian team reminds me a bit of Australia as all terrain bowling attack. However there is still a gap in terms of quality between the two. As of now India is lucky enough have both good pace bowlers and spinners. Aksar giving India another big edge as third spinner on turning track.
 
jeetu said:
To say current Indian pace attack is greatest of all time is moronic. West Indies at their peak was great pace attack ever. It started with Robert Holding Garner and lasted till Bishop retired. Ambrose Walsh carried it for few more years but they had no quality backup. Australia had the greatest versatile attack with a great mixture of pace and spin at their peak. They had all bases covered with Mcgrath , Gellispie , Lee , Warne and Mcgill. Pakistan came close in terms of versatility from time to time during 2 W's time with a decent spinner in support like Mushtaq.
Current Indian team reminds me a bit of Australia as all terrain bowling attack. However there is still a gap in terms of quality between the two. As of now India is lucky enough have both good pace bowlers and spinners. Aksar giving India another big edge as third spinner on turning track.
Click to expand...

McGrath and Warne were definitive ATGs. Gillespie was a great bowler but slightly below these two. Lee, Macgill were distinctively a tier lower in comparison. Lee came to his own fairly late in his career.

This Indian line up as a collective is comparable and probably even better than the Aussie attack aforementioned.

But WI attack was an altogether different beast. But they also played in a different era when batting average of 40 was regarded as excellent. And they lacked the versatility this Indian line up has.

I'd back this Indian bowling lineup to do well everywhere in the world. It is such a shame their batting is pits.
 
PakLFC said:
Look at past attacks to see who had done what. Are you saying this attack is the best off all time?? As I say firstly you have not won this series then even if you do there are a few other countries to conquer away from home. You know the Aussie side of the 1990's or 2000's was considered the best ever after they had won home and away everywhere. I would also say this if Pak had defeated Australia and England in their own backyard.
Click to expand...

What are these countries India need to win in ?.

They have won test series already in the following countries:

Australia,
NZ,
England,
Pakistan,
WI,
Sri Lanka,
ZIM ?

So only country left is South Africa..
 
Aus bowler ( march 1996-aug 2003)
McGrath 352 wickets @20.54
Warne 284 wickets @27.30
Gillespie 174 wickets @24.92
Macgill. 131 wickets @26.21
Lee 125 wickets @29.63
Miller 69 wickets. @26.12
Fleming 58 wickets @25.98
Not a single bowler ( at least 50 wickets) averaging above 30.
 
Romali_rotti said:
What are these countries India need to win in ?.

They have won test series already in the following countries:

Australia,
NZ,
England,
Pakistan,
WI,
Sri Lanka,
ZIM ?

So only country left is South Africa..
Click to expand...

This particular team (Virat Kohli led) need to win in Eng, NZ and SA. Aus is ticked now.
 
Its a very good attack as pack of 4 formerly pack of 3. Individually none of them are that great but as a pack of 4 they are the best around currently.

But dont judge too much on this lords performance or this series too much this England batting line up is very weak they basically have one recognized test player and he has scored plenty of runs. England are palying too many one day players in their batting line up with their top order being a weak link which was spoken of even before the series.

NZ bowlers also troubled them.
 
Sir Alex said:
This particular team (Virat Kohli led) need to win in Eng, NZ and SA. Aus is ticked now.
Click to expand...

Yes you're right . Australia ✅hopefully England also done in a months . I'm very confident we will win a series in South Africa later this year .Nz is left which is tricky but let's see what happen when we tour next time .
 
Pakhs said:
Its a very good attack as pack of 4 formerly pack of 3. Individually none of them are that great but as a pack of 4 they are the best around currently.

But dont judge too much on this lords performance or this series too much this England batting line up is very weak they basically have one recognized test player and he has scored plenty of runs. England are palying too many one day players in their batting line up with their top order being a weak link which was spoken of even before the series.

NZ bowlers also troubled them.
Click to expand...



NZ and Eng have similar Swing and seam conditions, this time around NZ won coz they had better batsman and bowlers, same set of NZ bowlers will not be able to do great when they enter subcontinent, this attack has done well in last five years, its our batsman who had not had much success which worries me at bit.
 
Pakhs said:
England are palying too many one day players in their batting line up.
Click to expand...


Ahh yess.. too may One day players.

Burns
Sibley
Lawrence
Hameed
Crawley

With an astounding number of 3 odi caps between them, they surely are hurting this English batting lineup with their one day batting. :angel:
 
Stumper said:
NZ and Eng have similar Swing and seam conditions, this time around NZ won coz they had better batsman and bowlers, same set of NZ bowlers will not be able to do great when they enter subcontinent, this attack has done well in last five years, its our batsman who had not had much success which worries me at bit.
Click to expand...

Mesozoic said:
Ahh yess.. too may One day players.

Burns
Sibley
Lawrence
Hameed
Crawley

With an astounding number of 3 odi caps between them, they surely are hurting this English batting lineup with their one day batting. :angel:
Click to expand...

Lawerence, hameed and crawley are unproven at this level and very inexperienced. England experienced players are baristow, butler and root in the top 6 (2 of them being one players). This is a cricket forum for knowledgeable cricket lovers and I should not have to explain as if school kids are reading it.

NZ have an equally good attack which can trouble teams in the subcontinent too (pace attack only). Overall its not a comparison as Indian attack as a whole is on another level in subcontinent.

More to the point NZ batters played Indian pace bowling attack much better than England batters (apart from root). Infact India's most threatening bowler was Aswhin who may not even feature in the series.

What I like about India's attack now is that its 4 of them. 3 fast bowlers are not enough in SENA you need 3 with stokes type allrounder or 4 out an out pace bowlers that has actually been proven by india's lack of success in England last tour.
 
Pakhs said:
Lawerence, hameed and crawley are unproven at this level and very inexperienced. England experienced players are baristow, butler and root in the top 6 (2 of them being one players). This is a cricket forum for knowledgeable cricket lovers and I should not have to explain as if school kids are reading it.
Click to expand...


Of course you got triggered. :)))

You said "England are playing too many one day players in their batting lineup". So tell me in what world is playing just 2 odi batters in the top 7 "too many"? And even out of those two, Butler is their first choice WK and Bairstow has been their second best batter this series. I suggest you to do some research here and there because you often embarrass yourselves in your futile attempts at downplaying anything good that's Indian.
 
India's is not the best ever pace bowling attack. Certainly not yet, at least.

However, it is the second greatest ever bowling attack as a whole.

And that's simply because no other bowling attack can boast of having, not one but two world class spinners who have 600+ wickets between them at an average under 24, in addition to having 4-5 world class pacers, all bowling 140 kph.

The only bowling collective that has been better than the current Indian group is Warne-McGrath Era Australian bowling unit.
 
Abdullah719 said:
https://www.cricxtasy.com/indian-pace-attack-the-greatest-of-all-time-mohammed-shami/

Interesting claim.
Click to expand...

This is is funny, Marshall, Garner, Holding forget about Ambrose and the Walsh.
Waqar, Wasim, Shoaib...
Lillee, Thompson, Mcgrath

This pace attack is good but they haven't done it against everyone.... and even without they are not one of the best....

In this small era they are definitely best currently. Thats because the rest of the units are poor compared to yesteryear.

Shami probably never saw the windies of 70's, 80's they were the best ever....
No one has come close since.
 
Romali_rotti said:
What are these countries India need to win in ?.

They have won test series already in the following countries:

Australia,
NZ,
England,
Pakistan,
WI,
Sri Lanka,
ZIM ?

So only country left is South Africa..
Click to expand...

The current attack that Indian fans claim to be the best ever has never won in NZ, Pak or West Indies. You are only 1-0 up in the current Test series.
 
PakLFC said:
The current attack that Indian fans claim to be the best ever has never won in NZ, Pak or West Indies. You are only 1-0 up in the current Test series.
Click to expand...
Agree. Maybe Shami meant India’s best pace attack of all times because India never had a good pace attack.
 
India’s GOAT Test pace bowling attack has played 3 Test away to NZ and against NZ in England in the last 18 months.

So there were 60 wickets to take.

India took 35 wickets in those three Tests.

Kapil Dev, Chetan Sharma and Madan Lal would have taken a lot more wickets!

This Indian pace attack might be in the Top Hundred pace attacks of all time. Just.
 
PakLFC said:
The current attack that Indian fans claim to be the best ever has never won in NZ, Pak or West Indies. You are only 1-0 up in the current Test series.
Click to expand...

The current attack demolished West Indies in 2019 in the 2 Test series. Siraj hadn't debuted for India then in Tests but Bumrah, Shami and Ishant ran through WI in both the Tests, it was not even close. The series result was 3-0 T20, 2-0 ODIs and 2-0 Test.

Only team valid is NZ as they don't play against Pakistan and that is not their fault.
 
giri26 said:
The current attack demolished West Indies in 2019 in the 2 Test series. Siraj hadn't debuted for India then in Tests but Bumrah, Shami and Ishant ran through WI in both the Tests, it was not even close. The series result was 3-0 T20, 2-0 ODIs and 2-0 Test.

Only team valid is NZ as they don't play against Pakistan and that is not their fault.
Click to expand...

I don't remember you defeating the Windies but i will take your word for it. You still have not defeated England in the current series where as NZ are no walkover in their own country. India's fault or not you have to defeat the arch rival in their own back yard to even be considered a great attack. Did you defeat the RSA there??
 
To answer my own question I believe India has defeated South Africa away from home.
 
PakLFC said:
I don't remember you defeating the Windies but i will take your word for it. You still have not defeated England in the current series where as NZ are no walkover in their own country. India's fault or not you have to defeat the arch rival in their own back yard to even be considered a great attack. Did you defeat the RSA there??
Click to expand...

Not sure if Indian pace attack is best or not, but beating Kenya, Zimbabve, Pakistan, Ireland etc at their homes is irrelevant to deciding it.
 
Babbar said:
Not sure if Indian pace attack is best or not, but beating Kenya, Zimbabve, Pakistan, Ireland etc at their homes is irrelevant to deciding it.
Click to expand...

Beating thee arch rival on their patch is the most important. The other teams you mentioned are indeed irrelevant.
 
Pakistan is no longer our arch rival in cricket, hockey, squash and most other fields! That ship has sailed a decade ago. Good for both teams.
 
Discussion should be purely on stats ...After analysing it then one should go to other factors which they think are relevant..
 
Junaids said:
India’s GOAT Test pace bowling attack has played 3 Test away to NZ and against NZ in England in the last 18 months.

So there were 60 wickets to take.

India took 35 wickets in those three Tests.

Kapil Dev, Chetan Sharma and Madan Lal would have taken a lot more wickets!

This Indian pace attack might be in the Top Hundred pace attacks of all time. Just.
Click to expand...

OK. West Indies attack at its prime could not win a single test in NZ in 1980. They eventually ended up losing the test series. What is your point ?
 
Sir Alex said:
OK. West Indies attack at its prime could not win a single test in NZ in 1980. They eventually ended up losing the test series. What is your point ?
Click to expand...

He's a bored uncle so best if everyone indulges him. But that's a startling stat on its own. 6 tests across 80s, a solitary win, 2 losses and 3 draws. Never gets spoken about.
 
Junaids said:
India’s GOAT Test pace bowling attack has played 3 Test away to NZ and against NZ in England in the last 18 months.

So there were 60 wickets to take.

India took 35 wickets in those three Tests.

Kapil Dev, Chetan Sharma and Madan Lal would have taken a lot more wickets!

This Indian pace attack might be in the Top Hundred pace attacks of all time. Just.
Click to expand...


As per your logic then what about great Australian Attack who could not win a series in india in 90s to early 2000 which is a GOAT attack.

see there are exceptions everywhere, but you have to acknowledge that this attack in last 5 years have done exceedingly well.
 
This is certainly India's GOAT pace attack. No doubts about that. We have always had a Kapil, Sreenath, Zaheer leading the attack but with no support. So much so that, there have been times where Ganguly has shared the new ball in the last decade.

In this series in England, pacers have taken 39 of 40 wickets to fall and the other one was a run out. Shami was probably carried away when he said greatest of all time, he probably meant as a unit. But even then, no way can they be compared to the quad pack of Garner/Holding/Roberts/Croft.
 
The only thing about this Indian pace attack is they lack a speed demon like peak Malcolm Marshall or Jeff Thomson who can break noses and ribs- hence this attack will always have less aura than some great pace attacks of yesteryears
 
Sir Alex said:
OK. West Indies attack at its prime could not win a single test in NZ in 1980. They eventually ended up losing the test series. What is your point ?
Click to expand...
West Indies most a series with crooked umpires by ONE WICKET in three Tests.

In the last three Tests between India and NZ, NZ took 60 wickets and India took 35.
 
Right now the pace attack of top 10 teams can be ranked as

1: India
2: New Zealand
3: Australia
4-5 South Africa & England
6: West Indies
7-8: Bangladesh & Pakistan
9: Ireland
10 Zimbabwe

I won’t rank the current India attack to be the best ever. It’s among top-10 probably.
 
Sir Alex said:
OK. West Indies attack at its prime could not win a single test in NZ in 1980. They eventually ended up losing the test series. What is your point ?
Click to expand...

They did win a series in the mid or late 80s afterwards.
 
I will rate this attack as the greatest if they win Test series in South Africa, Pakistan and New Zealand.
 
From the year of Akram's debut to his retirement, pakistan bowling was arguably at its peak. This chunk of years saw pakistan's best bowlers -Imran, Akram, Waqar, Saqlain, Mushtak, Akhtar - play at their very peak.

Pakistan played 143 matches during this period, and their overall average was 29 (28.94). If I narrow down this period from 1986 to 1996 to take a 10 year window, where they played 81 matches, the average for pakistan bowling comes to 27.62. This is the best average for Pakistan across a 10 years period.

Meanwhile, the bowling average for India in the last 10 years, involving 98 matches, has been 27.97. More importantly, this average is improving by each year. For example, since 2016, India's bowling average is 24.88 over 58 matches.

For reference, during AUS peak years of 1997-2004 under steve waugh, their bowling average was 27.12 across 100 tests.

West Indies in 1980s had an average of 25.02 across 82 tests.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Hitman
Cleric who slammed Mohammed Shami over roza now criticises his daughter for playing Holi
Replies
3
Views
328
Hitman
Hitman
N
Why Steve Smith is still the undisputed second greatest Test batter of all time?
2 3 4
Replies
249
Views
2K
mominsaigol
mominsaigol
Bhaag Viru Bhaag
"He is a criminal": Shahabuddin Razvi slams Mohammed Shami for not observing roza during the India-Australia match in the ICC Champions Trophy 2025
Replies
56
Views
2K
Hitman
Hitman
R
Could Jasprit Bumrah make it into Pakistan's all-time XI, assuming he were a Pakistani cricketer?
Replies
23
Views
997
kron
K
The Bald Eagle
"We're confident in our pace attack—Shaheen, Naseem, and Haris are among the best": Aaqib Javed
2
Replies
120
Views
4K
Xoib
X
Back
Top