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[VIDEOS] Tariq Jamil blames immoral behaviour for current Covid-19 crisis during Ehsaas Telethon

I think we would have to look at the Maulanas relationship with Veena Malik and how he never judges her and how much she respects him
 
Mauala saab is right in his views, Pakistanis has left the ways of the Islamic religion. There is so much lying, dishonesty and people tend to try to replicate other cultures, replication can be against Islam. Issue was that he also called out the media; as a result they made it in an issue. To make matters worse; he praised Imran Khan. As in, knowing Pakistani media, I am not suprised that they got trjggered.

Anyways, I don't understand why some posters are so triggered on here? This is TJs view and he has every right to express. I think Pakistani fake liberals really need to understand the fundamentals of freedom of speech.
 
King-Misbah said:
Mauala saab is right in his views, Pakistanis has left the ways of the Islamic religion. There is so much lying, dishonesty and people tend to try to replicate other cultures, replication can be against Islam. Issue was that he also called out the media; as a result they made it in an issue. To make matters worse; he praised Imran Khan. As in, knowing Pakistani media, I am not suprised that they got trjggered.

Anyways, I don't understand why some posters are so triggered on here? This is TJs view and he has every right to express. I think Pakistani fake liberals really need to understand the fundamentals of freedom of speech.
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This is exactly what I was trying to call out the liberals on.... they can have whatever view they want and no body has any right to stop them under "freedom of expression", but the same right isn't afforded to MTJ for having an opinion whether good or bad, right or wrong.


Have to be a special type of idiot to be a liberals as exhibited on this thread.
 
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Syed1 said:
This is exactly what I was trying to call out the liberalson.... they can have whatever view they want and no body has any right to stop them under "freedom of expression", but the same right isn't afforded to MTJ for having an opinion whether good or bad, right or wrong.


Have to be a special type of idiot to be a liberal as exhibited on this thread.
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I’m not saying he doesn’t have a right to express his views. He can be as racist as he wants. But he’s an influential person and influential people spewing racist rhetoric is harmful. Freedom of expression is not an excuse especially when you are a person of some kind of authority
 
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Who would’ve thought the day would come when you would be called a liberal for pointing out blatant racism. It’s truly hilarious :)) Only in Pakistan
 
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In Pakistan, anybody who calls for the rights of minorities, speaks out against acid attacks, honor killings and sex abuse of children in religious schools is called a liberal.

I would love to be called a liberal!
 
saeedhk said:
In Pakistan, anybody who calls for the rights of minorities, speaks out against acid attacks, honor killings and sex abuse of children in religious schools is called a liberal.

I would love to be called a liberal!
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Not really, I support all the issues in the first paragraph too but I wouldn't like to be classified as a Pakistani liberal or a conservative. I would classify myself as a true western liberal though. I just find Pakistani liberals to be bitter, toxic, illogical, extreme, confused, quick to judge and to some extent not patriotic.
 
miandadrules said:
There is no official or unofficial atheistic view with regards to morality or anything else.

Atheism is an answer to one question and one question only. Belief in a God(s). There is nothing beyond that.

It isnÂ’t a doctrine, which seems to be what your suggesting.

I think you are conflating a number of principles, such atheism, humanism, secularism and civil rights advocacy.

These are separate entities, which people can adhere to in varying degrees.

You can ask for my own opinions but they are my own opinions. You mentioned Robert, but I think youÂ’ll find that there is a great discrepancy between between what the two of us believe.

There is no point in addressing your questions if we canÂ’t agree on definitions.
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Sure . The reason i mentioned Robert is he always gives his views & understands the point . Not suggesting similar views .

I’ll simplify. My views on women come from my religion & parents. The faith tells us in detail.

As you don’t believe in god , what moral foundation do you use ? Your personal view and what is it based upon ? I’ve given one example, here’s another .

Why get married ? ie committed to one person. What’s the reason for doing this ? .
 
There is literally no correlation between the so called ‘behayai’ and a disease that can literally effect the purest of souls. But you know what is the problem here? Liberals.
 
While liberals have a lot to answer for their lack of principles, this ain’t it. The funny thing is that if you draw a Venn Diagram for people who hate liberals and those who think MTJ is right about blaming women of certain characteristics for this pandemic, it would be close to a perfect circle.
 
Angrez Pakistani said:
While liberals have a lot to answer for their lack of principles, this ain’t it. The funny thing is that if you draw a Venn Diagram for people who hate liberals and those who think MTJ is right about blaming women of certain characteristics for this pandemic, it would be close to a perfect circle.
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The problem is not liberals the problem is desi liberals who would be classified as jahil gammars anywhere else in the world because they believe only their opinion is the right one and they have full right to express it without restriction, but every other opinion needs to be shunned and quietened.


And I'm no Mullah lover.
 
Syed1 said:
The problem is not liberals the problem is desi liberals who would be classified as jahil gammars anywhere else in the world because they believe only their opinion is the right one and they have full right to express it without restriction, but every other opinion needs to be shunned and quietened.


And I'm no Mullah lover.
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Honestly, it makes no difference if you are a ‘mullah lover’ or not if you prioritise gaslighting liberals over condemning the misogyny of mullahs.
 
Angrez Pakistani said:
Honestly, it makes no difference if you are a ‘mullah lover’ or not if you prioritise gaslighting liberals over condemning the misogyny of mullahs.
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Yes because liberals have covered themselves in glory by forcing MTJ to apologize for his opinion. Also before declaring it misogyny did you go back and watch the actual video or are you basing it off Twitter trends and Instagram stories of the 'woke' crowd?
 
And if you have a problem with liberals and their alleged jahalat, that’s fine. They aren’t exactly known for having any principals regardless of the region they inhabit. A liberal in US, UK or Canada has very little moral standing over a right winger when it comes to genuine issues. But it really becomes idiotic if you get offended by liberals for calling out the irrational mullahs over their regressive attitude towards women. It’s basically loosing sight of the bigger issue.
 
Syed1 said:
Yes because liberals have covered themselves in glory by forcing MTJ to apologize for his opinion. Also before declaring it misogyny did you go back and watch the actual video or are you basing it off Twitter trends and Instagram stories of the 'woke' crowd?
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Well his opinions aren’t exactly secret to anyone. And yes I have. And if your issue is with liberals covering themselves in glory over the issue of maulvis attributing a pandemic to female promiscuity then let me tell you something: the country is not going to move an inch away from religious fanaticism. And people like you will be telling us why our Democratic leaders have their hands tied at the back by the religious circles from enacting any progressive changes in the country.
 
Angrez Pakistani said:
Well his opinions aren’t exactly secret to anyone. And yes I have. And if your issue is with liberals covering themselves in glory over the issue of maulvis attributing a pandemic to female promiscuity then let me tell you something: the country is not going to move an inch away from religious fanaticism. And people like you will be telling us why our Democratic leaders have their hands tied at the back by the religious circles from enacting any progressive changes in the country.
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Where did he attribute it to female promiscuity??? He said 'meray mulk ki larkiyoon ko kon nacha raha hai, onkay kapray kaun otar raha hai'. While his comments might be religiously motivated I don't know how you can construe these are promiscuity. Did he say all women should wear burqas?

Libturds are basically wannabe goras wanting western culture in Pak. Moving away from religious fanaticism also doesn't mean girls walking around with barely nothing on and nightclubs at every street corner as is the desire of libturds.
 
The most shocking thing to me is that many of his supporters are educated. This just brings further proof to the argument that education on its own means nothing. Only someone with perverted and twisted views on Islam and humanity can say some of the stuff he says. When calling out something like open racism is deemed too extreme and progressive by educated people, then you know that country is absolutely destined to fail
 
Syed1 said:
Where did he attribute it to female promiscuity??? He said 'meray mulk ki larkiyoon ko kon nacha raha hai, onkay kapray kaun otar raha hai'. While his comments might be religiously motivated I don't know how you can construe these are promiscuity. Did he say all women should wear burqas?

Libturds are basically wannabe goras wanting western culture in Pak. Moving away from religious fanaticism also doesn't mean girls walking around with barely nothing on and nightclubs at every street corner as is the desire of libturds.
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Wooow. I don’t understand how u can not condemn him for those comments. Also where did u get the idea of what liberals want in pakistan.
 
Syed1 said:
My dislike for ulema is quite vocal but I went back and watched his address and the context in which he had said it and I do not think he said anything unreasonable.
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I agree with this. Just watched it. The way Hamid Mir and co decided to bully him afterwards was quite pathetic and low.

And for the record, I don't listen to MTJ otherwise.
 
Square Drive said:
I agree with this. Just watched it. The way Hamid Mir and co decided to bully him afterwards was quite pathetic and low.

And for the record, I don't listen to MTJ otherwise.
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Agree with you. A true moderate is one who defends the more extreme from the more liberal. I am also a
moderate hindoo.
 
PetroDollars said:
he basically called all africans ugly black monkeys and if they turn to allah he will make them fair and beautiful in jannah.
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A lot of ordinary Pakistanis have similar beliefs relating Africans jokingly to monkeys as well.

I have been in cricket matches where the fans around me were making monkey sounds and chanting Kale Kale kaun hain during Pakistan and West Indies games
 
I don’t think he was blaming women in Pakistan as the cause of the virus.

I think he is just saying that there are a lot of indecent things going on and this is God’s way of punishing mankind.

It’s kind of misleading to say he singles out women as the main cause here.
 
Sirris said:
Can someone post the exact transcript of what Maulana said. From my info he held men and women equally responsible for not following the Islamic moral code properly. If Pakistan wasn't an Islamic republic I could understand the anger. Using the good old buzzword "misogyny" just undermines any legitimate critic.
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By the same token, people throwing around buzzwords like "snowflake", "libtard", "SJW" seem to forget that freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom from the consequences of speech.

MTJ's entitled to his views and I disagree with those forcing an apology out of him, but his supporters should not cry and whine when the inevitable criticism results after making such statements.
 
PetroDollars said:
he basically called all africans ugly black monkeys and if they turn to allah he will make them fair and beautiful in jannah.
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If that's millions of people's idea of a humble man of God, then forgive the phrase, but God help us.
 
Anyway, MTJ is not the hill anyone should like to die on. There are far more unsavoury characters in the make believe industry and those characters are really messed up.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Sure . The reason i mentioned Robert is he always gives his views & understands the point . Not suggesting similar views .

I’ll simplify. My views on women come from my religion & parents. The faith tells us in detail.

As you don’t believe in god , what moral foundation do you use ? Your personal view and what is it based upon ? I’ve given one example, here’s another .

Why get married ? ie committed to one person. What’s the reason for doing this ? .
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Sure.

But like I said previously, before we have a discussion on what constitutes moral behaviour, we first have to agree on a definition of morality.

How do you define morality?
 
miandadrules said:
Sure.

But like I said previously, before we have a discussion on what constitutes moral behaviour, we first have to agree on a definition of morality.

How do you define morality?
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I define it by my religion. If I accept I was created by an allow powerful , knowing being then I also havd to accept what is acceptable in terms of morality. Ill give a few examples and if you can please give your views on morality on the same issues and reasons behind it?

1. Women - Marriage, making a commitment to a person.

2. Murder is wrong - Killing one is like killing all of humanity.

3. Theft is wrong. - Taking someones property is wrong even if they wont know or miss it.

4. Respect your elders - Not even allowed to raise your voice or become angry.
 
KingKhanWC said:
I define it by my religion. If I accept I was created by an allow powerful , knowing being then I also havd to accept what is acceptable in terms of morality. Ill give a few examples and if you can please give your views on morality on the same issues and reasons behind it?

1. Women - Marriage, making a commitment to a person.

2. Murder is wrong - Killing one is like killing all of humanity.

3. Theft is wrong. - Taking someones property is wrong even if they wont know or miss it.

4. Respect your elders - Not even allowed to raise your voice or become angry.
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I don’t think I made my point clear.

For us to discuss morality, we both need to agree on a definition.

Morality is complex and multi-factorial, but I would say a good starting point would be to not cause suffering and pain to others.

You’ve said that you define it by Islamic doctrine. How does Islam define morality and what constitutes moral behaviour?

If we can’t agree on a definition of morality, we’ll be discussing completely different topics.
 
KingKhanWC said:
I define it by my religion. If I accept I was created by an allow powerful , knowing being then I also havd to accept what is acceptable in terms of morality. Ill give a few examples and if you can please give your views on morality on the same issues and reasons behind it?

1. Women - Marriage, making a commitment to a person.

2. Murder is wrong - Killing one is like killing all of humanity.

3. Theft is wrong. - Taking someones property is wrong even if they wont know or miss it.

4. Respect your elders - Not even allowed to raise your voice or become angry.
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Everyone has a right to their beliefs. However do you need religion for all this. Are non religious people lacking in all this. I am talking about 2-4. #1 I don’t understand .
 
Nadeemp said:
Everyone has a right to their beliefs. However do you need religion for all this. Are non religious people lacking in all this. I am talking about 2-4. #1 I don’t understand .
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Yes I do. Otherwise explain.

Why cant a steal from others if I can get away with it?

Why do I have respect anyone let alone my elders?

Im here by chance, live one life and die. Why not do everything which gives me advantage. If I murder 1000 people and this gives me millions to enjoy, why not?

Sometimes its good to give your views rather than just questioning others all the time.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Yes I do. Otherwise explain.

Why cant a steal from others if I can get away with it?

Why do I have respect anyone let alone my elders?

Im here by chance, live one life and die. Why not do everything which gives me advantage. If I murder 1000 people and this gives me millions to enjoy, why not?

Sometimes its good to give your views rather than just questioning others all the time.
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So, the only thing stopping you from stealing and killing is your religion?
 
KingKhanWC said:
Sure, why not?

What stops you?
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Being a decent human being.

Not wanting to cause suffering to others.

If religion is the only thing stopping you, then I would suggest the issue isn’t religion or morality.


I’m not sure if you read my previous post but we still don’t have a definition of morality according to yourself and to Islam.
 
miandadrules said:
Being a decent human being.

Not wanting to cause suffering to others.

If religion is the only thing stopping you, then I would suggest the issue isn’t religion or morality.


I’m not sure if you read my previous post but we still don’t have a definition of morality according to yourself and to Islam.
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My definition is based on the teachings of Islam, they deal with everything and you yourself have previously stated you know about the religion.

What is a decent human being? Why be decent at all? YOLO?

If I can get away with taking off others , living a luxourious life and I die into nothing, dont see what the issue is?

What make you feel this way? Im not trolling you with questions but I genuinley find this fascinating so please go ahead.
 
miandadrules said:
Being a decent human being.

Not wanting to cause suffering to others.

If religion is the only thing stopping you, then I would suggest the issue isn’t religion or morality.


I’m not sure if you read my previous post but we still don’t have a definition of morality according to yourself and to Islam.
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We are human beings. We are not robots. We generally need incentives/reasons for doing something.

Would you decline your salary and work for free?

By the way, Islam is really clear about morality. I suggest you to study it further.
 
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KingKhanWC said:
My definition is based on the teachings of Islam, they deal with everything and you yourself have previously stated you know about the religion.

What is a decent human being? Why be decent at all? YOLO?

If I can get away with taking off others , living a luxourious life and I die into nothing, dont see what the issue is?

What make you feel this way? Im not trolling you with questions but I genuinley find this fascinating so please go ahead.
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You still haven’t provided a definition.

The issue is simple. We are social creatures who can’t thrive in isolation, thus we have to learn to share to survive.

I, like every human being knows what pain and suffering is (obviously to differing degrees) and I don’t wish to inflict it upon others. This is basic empathy that almost all human beings have.

The fact that you don’t see the issue of inflicting suffering on others as an issue is quite shocking and indicative of how religion destroys empathy.

Hopefully, I won’t have to ask for a definition of morality according to Islam again, because this is the very basis of this discussion.
 
sweep_shot said:
We are human beings. We are not robots. We generally need incentives/reasons for doing something.

Would you decline your salary and work for free?

By the way, Islam is really clear about morality. I suggest you to study it further.
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Please provide the definition of morality according to Islam that you say is so clear.

You need an incentive to be moral? That says more about you than any ideology.

Would I decline my salary and work for free? What do you think charity or voluntary work classed as? My work for MSF I guess comes under this.

Before making a claim that morality is linked to incentives you might want to provide some evidence.
 
miandadrules said:
Please provide the definition of morality according to Islam that you say is so clear.

You need an incentive to be moral? That says more about you than any ideology.

Would I decline my salary and work for free? What do you think charity or voluntary work classed as? My work for MSF I guess comes under this.

Before making a claim that morality is linked to incentives you might want to provide some evidence.
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Let's first define what morality is.

According to Cambridge dictionary, morality is a set of personal or social standards for good or bad behaviour and character.

Islam has a lot of rules and regulations when it comes to morality. Islam encourages mercy and love but it also encourages tough love when situation demands. It is a highly practical religion.

If you want to look for evidences, I suggest you to take a look at this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_in_Islam. This page has many useful resources about Islamic view on morality.

You may also want to take a look at this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_humanity.
 
miandadrules said:
You still haven’t provided a definition.

The issue is simple. We are social creatures who can’t thrive in isolation, thus we have to learn to share to survive.

I, like every human being knows what pain and suffering is (obviously to differing degrees) and I don’t wish to inflict it upon others. This is basic empathy that almost all human beings have.

The fact that you don’t see the issue of inflicting suffering on others as an issue is quite shocking and indicative of how religion destroys empathy.

Hopefully, I won’t have to ask for a definition of morality according to Islam again, because this is the very basis of this discussion.
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I thought you were a Muslim? Therefore you should know the definition of morality depending on the subject. There is no one set of morals for every situation. Ie. Taking a life is like taking the life of everyone. Yet in self defence you are allowed to take the life of someone who wants to take yours.

Would you like me to give you examples from the texts?

Its not simple, you say we are social animals but we are also greedy aminals. Not everyone needs to get on with everyone. E.g I like my gf, I dont like anyone else and wont need anyone if I do what I like.

Why should I feel sorry for anyone when I dont need them?

"This is basic empathy that almost all human beings have. " Did Hitler have this empathy, no he didn't . You cannot speak for all human beings .
 
sweep_shot said:
Let's first define what morality is.

According to Cambridge dictionary, morality is a set of personal or social standards for good or bad behaviour and character.

Islam has a lot of rules and regulations when it comes to morality. Islam encourages mercy and love but it also encourages tough love when situation demands. It is a highly practical religion.

If you want to look for evidences, I suggest you to take a look at this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_in_Islam. This page has many useful resources about Islamic view on morality.

You may also want to take a look at this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_humanity.
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Once again you haven’t provided an answer, you’ve just shifted the goal post. By defining mortality as good and bad behaviours, you have to define what is good and bad. How does Islam distinguish between the two?

You don’t need to provide a wiki link to show the morality in Islam. I would say it is more indicative to point out Quran 4:24 surah an-Nisa, for the objections most people would have to such morality. And this is just scratching the surface.
 
KingKhanWC said:
I thought you were a Muslim? Therefore you should know the definition of morality depending on the subject. There is no one set of morals for every situation. Ie. Taking a life is like taking the life of everyone. Yet in self defence you are allowed to take the life of someone who wants to take yours.

Would you like me to give you examples from the texts?

Its not simple, you say we are social animals but we are also greedy aminals. Not everyone needs to get on with everyone. E.g I like my gf, I dont like anyone else and wont need anyone if I do what I like.

Why should I feel sorry for anyone when I dont need them?

"This is basic empathy that almost all human beings have. " Did Hitler have this empathy, no he didn't . You cannot speak for all human beings.
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There we have it. We can’t even agree on what morality is.

Morality isn’t fluid according to the situation. There is a difference in murder and self-defence. I haven’t seen anyone propose they are the same.

Are you suggesting that you can freely abuse members of a society and for it to function fluently and that you would continued to be accepted within it?

Why should you feel empathy? If you can inflict suffering on others without a second thought then you’re a horrible human being. It’s that simple.

Not sure why you brought up. Hitler. I specifically said ALMOST. They’re are psychopaths also. And before you use the Nazis as proof of immoral behaviour and the role of religion, you probably want to find out what was inscribed on their belt buckles.

You still haven’t provided a definition or at the very least the underlying ethos of morality in Islam.
 
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miandadrules said:
There we have it. We can’t even agree on what morality is.

Morality isn’t fluid according to the situation. There is a difference in murder and self-defence. I haven’t seen anyone propose they are the same.

Are you suggesting that you can freely abuse members of a society and for it to function fluently and that you would continued to be accepted within it?

Why should you feel empathy? If you can inflict suffering on others without a second thought then you’re a horrible human being. It’s that simple.

Not sure why you brought up. Hitler. I specifically said ALMOST. They’re are psychopaths also. And before you use the Nazis as proof of immoral behaviour and the role of religion, you probably want to find out what was inscribed on their belt buckles.

You still haven’t provided a definition or at the very least the underlying ethos of morality in Islam.
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You know the underlying ethos of Islam it's simple. Worship God, be good to others, kind , caring, forgiving, eat and drink which is not harmful, give to others, be connected to humanity. Each situation has it's own rulings as life is not always black or white.

Nazis were Chrisitians, I know this but Im not Christian and neither were they following the rulings. The point was why care for others if you can take and live the best luxary life, becaus you are only going to die and be nothing again?

I cant agree with you on morality because im the one explaining what its to me but you're not.

You're only point so far is we are social animals but this doesn't mean we are good animals, in fact we are the worst of animals, no other species harms their own as much as we do.

Why be 'Good', and not 'Bad'? Not all humans are social enough to care for others, most only care for themselves and their own. So we are not social animals in the sense we want to socialise with everyone, many white people dont want to socialise with blacks, polish, muslims , jews etc. Humans are a tribal people not social worldly people.

I appreicate the discussion but I've been through this when countless people who believe in no God, not a single one can detail or explain their morality and esp where they got it from.
 
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[MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]

Just to add.

Do you believe morality is built within humans from birth or is this a learned mentality?
 
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KingKhanWC said:
Yes I do. Otherwise explain.

Why cant a steal from others if I can get away with it?

Why do I have respect anyone let alone my elders?

Im here by chance, live one life and die. Why not do everything which gives me advantage. If I murder 1000 people and this gives me millions to enjoy, why not?

Sometimes its good to give your views rather than just questioning others all the time.
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1: I have no a ser as I don’t u see stand you statement.
2: you can’t steal from someone as it’s morally wrong. For me not because some invisible being is looking down at me or I will go to hell if I don’t. It’s morally wrong.
3 :same
4: same
 
sweep_shot said:
We are human beings. We are not robots. We generally need incentives/reasons for doing something.

Would you decline your salary and work for free?

By the way, Islam is really clear about morality. I suggest you to study it further.
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Saying that someone who does not agree with you has not read your book properly is being intellectually lazy. If what you say was true than all these atheist countries for example Scandinavia region would be morally corrupt. Not the case. In fact in all the measurements you have on how the society is progressing they beat everyone. Something to think about
 
miandadrules said:
There we have it. We can’t even agree on what morality is.
Or the
Morality isn’t fluid according to the situation. There is a difference in murder and self-defence. I haven’t seen anyone propose they are the same.

Are you suggesting that you can freely abuse members of a society and for it to function fluently and that you would continued to be accepted within it?

Why should you feel empathy? If you can inflict suffering on others without a second thought then you’re a horrible human being. It’s that simple.

Not sure why you brought up. Hitler. I specifically said ALMOST. They’re are psychopaths also. And before you use the Nazis as proof of immoral behaviour and the role of religion, you probably want to find out what was inscribed on their belt buckles.

You still haven’t provided a definition or at the very least the underlying ethos of morality in Islam.
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Or their gun butts and swords.
 
Sweep shot and king. Why are many countries whose population is atheist or secular and has been for a while so highly rated among every single matrix we have on judging a society. Not perfect as I am sure hey have issues also. But they beat all these religious countries which you proclaim to have. Some moral high ground
 
Also ( for king khan). The quote of killing someone equates killing man kind. Do you know what the next verse is? 5:22 I believe is the one you paraphrased do you know what 5:23 says ?
 
Nadeemp said:
Sweep shot and king. Why are many countries whose population is atheist or secular and has been for a while so highly rated among every single matrix we have on judging a society. Not perfect as I am sure hey have issues also. But they beat all these religious countries which you proclaim to have. Some moral high ground
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LOL. They got developed by stealing resources from other continents. Europe used to be like third world.

Read history.
 
sweep_shot said:
LOL. They got developed by stealing resources from other continents. Europe used to be like third world.

Read history.
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What does that have to do with morals anyway. Almost every group has abused another group if you go down in history.
 
Nadeemp said:
What does that have to do with morals anyway. Almost every group has abused another group if you go down in history.
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You brought up the topic of developed Europe. Not me.

Last time I checked, stealing is not a moral thing to do.

Europe should compensate all the nations they have robbed over the years.
 
sweep_shot said:
LOL. They got developed by stealing resources from other continents. Europe used to be like third world.

Read history.
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Did the ottomans not brutally rule other people. . And I am not forgetting the Europeans either who were brutal. What does that have to do with currently where some of the countries i mentioned stand. I. Human rights, religious rights, science , minority rights...... the list is endless
 
And Norway did do some pseudo colonization in Africa, Antarctica and Greenland. But I am sure that is what you were not referring too. And iceland if I am not mistaken has not colonized anyone. I think. However my question still stands.
 
sweep_shot said:
You brought up the topic of developed Europe. Not me.

Last time I checked, stealing is not a moral thing to do.

Europe should compensate all the nations they have robbed over the years.
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Does that rule apply to ottoman, arabs? Also most of European countries were abused by other European countries. Europe as an entity did not go and colonize people. Many European countries had no part in it. Who did iceland colonize
 
So are you saying the are ahead in science, human rights because they colonized people ?
 
Nadeemp said:
Did the ottomans not brutally rule other people. . And I am not forgetting the Europeans either who were brutal. What does that have to do with currently where some of the countries i mentioned stand. I. Human rights, religious rights, science , minority rights...... the list is endless
Click to expand...

Rights and morality are two different things.

Every country in the world has good and bad. Morality is an individual thing and not a group thing.
 
Nadeemp said:
So are you saying the are ahead in science, human rights because they colonized people ?
Click to expand...

Well, in a way, yes.

When you are not poor, you can focus on development. By stealing resources, they didn't have to worry about basic necessities.

I am surprised that you are defending European colonization considering what British Empire did to India for 200 years.
 
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sweep_shot said:
Rights and morality are two different things.

Every country in the world has good and bad. Morality is an individual thing and not a group thing.
Click to expand...
I still ha e two questions
Why are Scandinavian countries doing so well by every single matrix that you can judge a society ( yes not perfed) and these so called religious countries who u say have a higher moral ground not doing so well. Second should muslim caliphates also compénsate countries they attacked ? Also what counties did Norway and Iceland colonize?
 
sweep_shot said:
Well, in a way, yes.

When you are not poor, you can focus on development. By stealing resources, they didn't have to worry about basic necessities.

I am surprised that you are defending European colonization considering what Great Britain did to India for 200 years.
Click to expand...

Where the hell a i defending colonization. I am against all colonization. Especially the British. Are u defending ottomans and muslim caliphates? Saudi Arabia and other gulf countries have been rich for a long time now? Who no scientific development . And I agree being a rich country gives you an edge when it comes to science development .
 
Also money and wealth does not have much to do with minority rights, human rights.
 
Nadeemp said:
I still ha e two questions
Why are Scandinavian countries doing so well by every single matrix that you can judge a society ( yes not perfed) and these so called religious countries who u say have a higher moral ground not doing so well. Second should muslim caliphates also compénsate countries they attacked ? Also what counties did Norway and Iceland colonize?
Click to expand...

Nadeemp said:
Where the hell a i defending colonization. I am against all colonization. Especially the British. Are u defending ottomans and muslim caliphates? Saudi Arabia and other gulf countries have been rich for a long time now? Who no scientific development . And I agree being a rich country gives you an edge when it comes to science development .
Click to expand...

I didn't say most modern Muslim countries have high moral grounds. As a matter of fact, I think these Muslim states have gotten corrupt due to importing foreign influences and getting robbed for hundreds of years.

Had these Muslim states went along with Islamic norms and not allowed colonizers, I feel they would've done much better.

Also, not sure why you are so fixated on Scandinavian countries. Last time I checked, Europe has the highest suicide rate in the world.
 
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sweep_shot said:
I didn't say most modern Muslim countries have high moral grounds. As a matter of fact, I think these Muslim states have gotten corrupt due to importing foreign influences and getting robbed for hundreds of years.

Had these Muslim states went along with Islamic norms and not allowed colonizers, I feel they would've done much better.

Also, not sure why you are so fixated on Scandinavian countries. Last time I checked, Europe has the highest suicide rate in the world.
Click to expand...

Correction. I didn't mean hundreds of years. I meant last 100 years.

Muslim states got robbed over the past 100 years due to outside influences.
 
Scandinavian countries in GENERAL are looked at most ideal countries. In many NOT all they are at the top of the list of what makes a society so great. The original question that I was answering was can societies or individuals prosper without religion. Most of Scandinavian countries are secular . Hence I brought it up. Yes suicide is higher in Europe. Also they have a better way of recording or acknowledging it. As I said no society is perfect Do you condemn the coloration by ottomans and the arab caliphates? Who did iceland and Norway colonize?
 
Nadeemp said:
Please stop making excuses for muslims incompetence.
Click to expand...

Spain and parts of Europe who were ruled by ottomans or Arab caliphates are not making an excuses. Colonization is a terrible thing. I maher who does it to who. But they have moved on.
 
Nadeemp said:
Scandinavian countries in GENERAL are looked at most ideal countries. In many NOT all they are at the top of the list of what makes a society so great. The original question that I was answering was can societies or individuals prosper without religion. Most of Scandinavian countries are secular . Hence I brought it up. Yes suicide is higher in Europe. Also they have a better way of recording or acknowledging it. As I said no society is perfect Do you condemn the coloration by ottomans and the arab caliphates? Who did iceland and Norway colonize?
Click to expand...

Iceland and Norway are like Nepals and Bhutans of Europe. They were never main players and are highly irrelevant historically.

When you mention European colonization, you have to focus on main players like British Empire, Spanish Empire etc.

Just because Scandinavian countries are officially secular doesn't mean they are all atheists. See religious percentage in Norway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Norway.

Most are Christians in Norway.
 
sweep_shot said:
Iceland and Norway are like Nepals and Bhutans of Europe. They were never main players and are highly irrelevant historically.

When you mention European colonization, you have to focus on main players like British Empire, Spanish Empire etc.

Just because Scandinavian countries are officially secular doesn't mean they are all atheists. See religious percentage in Norway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Norway.

Most are Christians in Norway.
Click to expand...

Most are culturally Christian. My brother is married to a Swedish women and my aunt married a man from Norway. I have never meet one who was religious. Do u support arab and ottoman caliphates???? ????
 
sweep_shot said:
Yes.

I feel those Caliphates were much more effective than modern Muslim states.
Click to expand...

Are u purposely dodging my question. Do you support Turks going over and colonizing other countries. Do you supports berber/arabs colonizing part of spain
 
Nadeemp said:
Are u purposely dodging my question. Do you support Turks going over and colonizing other countries. Do you supports berber/arabs colonizing part of spain
Click to expand...

I am not dodging your question. It is just that I can't give you a black and white answer. There are many variables involved.

Islamic colonization and European colonization weren't same. There were different objectives. European colonization was about strengthening Europe by stealing resources. Islamic colonization was mainly all about spreading God's message.

I am not saying that Turks/Arabs didn't make mistakes but they were far more benevolent than European colonizers.
 
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