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Virat Kohli not a 'match-winner' in Tests?

Kohli is definitely a match-winner. This is so incredibly obvious. Look at the first Test when he stuck it.out for a while in the second innings. There are lots of players, who, after scoring a century in the first innings would cheaply lose their wicket in the second, because of the pressure to live up to the expectations created by the score in the first innings. Then you have the tight run chase which adds more pressure and he still manages to score a fifty, and would have won the game if he had a single decent partner at the other end. Then there are the scores in the third Test, when India had to win and capitalise on opportunities. Kohli did just what was needed to give India a chance. Fourth Test: solid first innings score to keep India ahead and that fantastic partnership in the second. It's not his fault that Rahane got too nervous after he got out. Look at the greatest match winners in history and they all had at least 2-3 consistently performing partners to help them out. There is no such thing as a single player literally single-handedly winning many matches for their team. Not Bevan, not Viv, not even Bradman. They all needed solid support from capable teammates. With the kind of support that Kohli got, no one could have won this series for India, unless they scored a century every innings, which is obviously too much to ask. Ironically, the one match where Kohli failed is the one match where India had no chance. The reason why Teendu got so much criticism is that it would often be the opposite. He'd score big in draws but get out for single figures in many clutch situations. Kohli had 3-4 such situations in this series and he succeeded in each and every one of them. If the team as a whole even played at a 6/10 level at scoring runs, India would have won both the first and third Tests. I think the term 'match winner' is thrown around way too often. If you think about genuine match winning innings in Tests, there aren't too many, atleast compared to limited overs. The fact that Kohli was MotM in 1 Test and one of India's two best players in 2 other Tests (both of which were close) speaks volumes about his abilities in tight situations. You can't look at it binary terms, where he can only be a match-winner if he literally wins a match for India single-handedly) every single time. If we were to apply such high standards, then there would be no one in Test history who can be considered one. If Kohli had lots of support, then we can indeed expect him to take India over the line and judge his match-winning capabilities. If the entire team fails, then there is no point in using the match to assess his match-winning abilities. The reason why people say Teendu was not a match winner was not because of games such as the 96 WC semi where the entire team failed. It's because of his performances in many other matches where he had a realistic chance of getting India over the line, but failed to do so. Here, Kohli was not given such chances.
 
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Which is why we lost our ranking to them in 2011, no?

If we lose 4-0 to Australia and lose our ranking. Sure we deserve it.

But until then India is number one team deservedly so.

What if you only lose 3:0 and manage to keep your ranking? Would it then be a paper ranking because Australia is clearly the stronger team?
 
Kohli is definitely a match-winner. This is so incredibly obvious. Look at the first Test when he stuck it.out for a while in the second innings. There are lots of players, who, after scoring a century in the first innings would cheaply lose their wicket in the second, because of the pressure to live up to the expectations created by the score in the first innings. Then you have the tight run chase which adds more pressure and he still manages to score a fifty, and would have won the game if he had a single decent partner at the other end. Then there are the scores in the third Test, when India had to win and capitalise on opportunities. Kohli did just what was needed to give India a chance. Fourth Test: solid first innings score to keep India ahead and that fantastic partnership in the second. It's not his fault that Rahane got too nervous after he got out. Look at the greatest match winners in history and they all had at least 2-3 consistently performing partners to help them out. There is no such thing as a single player literally single-handedly winning many matches for their team. Not Bevan, not Viv, not even Bradman. They all needed solid support from capable teammates. With the kind of support that Kohli got, no one could have won this series for India, unless they scored a century every innings, which is obviously too much to ask. Ironically, the one match where Kohli failed is the one match where India had no chance. The reason why Teendu got so much criticism is that it would often be the opposite. He'd score big in draws but get out for single figures in many clutch situations. Kohli had 3-4 such situations in this series and he succeeded in each and every one of them. If the team as a whole even played at a 6/10 level at scoring runs, India would have won both the first and third Tests. I think the term 'match winner' is thrown around way too often. If you think about genuine match winning innings in Tests, there aren't too many, atleast compared to limited overs. The fact that Kohli was MotM in 1 Test and one of India's two best players in 2 other Tests (both of which were close) speaks volumes about his abilities in tight situations. You can't look at it binary terms, where he can only be a match-winner if he literally wins a match for India single-handedly) every single time. If we were to apply such high standards, then there would be no one in Test history who can be considered one. If Kohli had lots of support, then we can indeed expect him to take India over the line and judge his match-winning capabilities. If the entire team fails, then there is no point in using the match to assess his match-winning abilities. The reason why people say Teendu was not a match winner was not because of games such as the 96 WC semi where the entire team failed. It's because of his performances in many other matches where he had a realistic chance of getting India over the line, but failed to do so. Here, Kohli was not given such chances.

Kohli is a match-winner because he managed to "stick around for a while" in a fourth innings run-chase. Gotcha. However, I'm more used to match-winners like Amla who would kill the game off in the first innings itself or Khan who would stick around until they got their team over the line, rather than scoring a 50 and bowing out.
 
Kohli is a match-winner because he managed to "stick around for a while" in a fourth innings run-chase. Gotcha. However, I'm more used to match-winners like Amla who would kill the game off in the first innings itself or Khan who would stick around until they got their team over the line, rather than scoring a 50 and bowing out.
How many instances in Test cricket did IK or Amla do that when no more than 1-2 members of the team were performing?
 
I had my first child, Alhamdulillah, and was also busy with work, etc. So I did not follow any Cricket for the past few months and therefore, could not partake in the discussions here either.

Wow congratulations man! I hope the family is doing well. :)
 
Kohli is a match-winner because he managed to "stick around for a while" in a fourth innings run-chase. Gotcha. However, I'm more used to match-winners like Amla who would kill the game off in the first innings itself or Khan who would stick around until they got their team over the line, rather than scoring a 50 and bowing out.

Amla is a match winner because of he was supported by Smith, Kallis and ABD. Once Smith and Kallis retired, Amla lost his match winning ability (because he's not, he needs support from the other end to do well). Kohli doesn't have any batsman to support him.

The tests SAF won because of Steyn and Morkel mostly.
 
Amla is a match winner because of he was supported by Smith, Kallis and ABD. Once Smith and Kallis retired, Amla lost his match winning ability (because he's not, he needs support from the other end to do well). Kohli doesn't have any batsman to support him.

The tests SAF won because of Steyn and Morkel mostly.

No, it was the other way around actually. Amla was the main man in all those matches/series I mentioned. Kallis, Smith, ABD were all the supporting cast. If you had watched those innings, you would know as such.

Kohli has played with Sachin, Dravid, VVS, Pujara, Rahane, Vijay and the 'wunderkid' Rahul. As much as I enjoy seeing you guys accepting that your batsmen are pretty overrated, I cannot accept this gross downplaying of their abilities.
 
How many instances in Test cricket did IK or Amla do that when no more than 1-2 members of the team were performing?

Kohli has received support from more than 1-2 Indian players during this tour and the last one as well.

Wow congratulations man! I hope the family is doing well. :)

Thanks, bud. They're doing well by the grace of God. Life-changing experience. :)
 
Please tell me how its impossible to win a test match without taking 20 wickets.

So India should lose the number 1 ranking now that they are playing SA ENG AUS one after another. No?

Yes ofcourse, but obviously that's the cunning plan or coincidence to play a longer home season than away season.
 
Change the rankings.

I don't believe the rankings matter. Like I said, in your heart you know they are not number one. Imagine comparing this team to number one sides like Australia, West Indies and South Africa. You'd be considered a joke.
 
No, it was the other way around actually. Amla was the main man in all those matches/series I mentioned. Kallis, Smith, ABD were all the supporting cast. If you had watched those innings, you would know as such.

Kohli has played with Sachin, Dravid, VVS, Pujara, Rahane, Vijay and the 'wunderkid' Rahul. As much as I enjoy seeing you guys accepting that your batsmen are pretty overrated, I cannot accept this gross downplaying of their abilities.

Pujara is arguably thr biggest HTB in cricket history. Kohli has played grand total of 2 years with Tendulkar and 1 year with Dravid, so not sure if you're trolling. Rahane lost his ability to score overseas since 2016. Just check out the average of Kohli and other Indian batsmen abroad for past 3 years. Amla became pure dud after Kallis retired and AB became irregular.

Surely you're not comparing the likes of Rahane and Pujara to ABD and Kallis, right?
 
Kohli is a match-winner because he managed to "stick around for a while" in a fourth innings run-chase. Gotcha. However, I'm more used to match-winners like Amla who would kill the game off in the first innings itself or Khan who would stick around until they got their team over the line, rather than scoring a 50 and bowing out.

This doesnt make sense.

All a batsmen has to do is flop miserably in 3 Tests and if the series is still alive luckily in the 4th test, come alive and draw the series and be considered a great.

That is not consistency but once in a series type performance.

If miraculous and Herculean unlikely efforts make a cricketer then surely Khan is better than Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar because he seems to have a few every other country.
 
Yes ofcourse, but obviously that's the cunning plan or coincidence to play a longer home season than away season.

Cunning plan? India plays more tests outside Asia than any other asian country.

3 tests in SA
5 tests in Eng
4 tests in Aus


Thats India's away tour from Jan 2018 to Jan 2019.

Then they visit WI in mid 2019 for tests

In 2020 feb they will go to NZ to play tests.

They will play a paltry 2 tests vs WI at
home in 2018.

From 2013 dec to 2015 Jan India played

2 tests in SA
2 tests in NZ
5 tests in Eng
4 tests in Aus

They also played 4 tests in WI in 2016.

Try getting some objectivity.
 
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