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Was Muttiah Muralitharan a chucker?

Random Aussie said:
Yes he bends his elbow more than 15 degrees. Intentionally and when he needs do during a match to get more spin.

He was clocked at 14.6 degrees in testing, you think he does not go that extra 0.4 during a match and therefore chucks?
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AAAAND another good point. Anybody with a counter reply?? :D
 
The fact of the matter is that he can LEGITIMATELY bowl if he was to say leg spin. So he really should be doing that instead and be a legit bowler instead of the cheat that he is now
 
LG said:
AAAAND another good point. Anybody with a counter reply?? :D
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And Random Aussie saw him bending 15 degrees? He must have been watching all pie chuckers coming out of Aussie academies. I saw Murali cutting back to 12 degrees.

Now go watch the video again. If not convinced reread "The One"'s post.

There is a reason why ICC made it 15 degrees. TO ACCOMODATE all chuckers, I mean bowlers from all the innocent countries like Australia, Eng, NZ, Ind, Pak, SA, WI etc. But heck, only Murali is questioned because he has shattered the World records and some. More like sour grapes to me. Specially for the Aussies who think records need to be given to the Aussies alone.

Speed limit is 70mph. You go 69, are you a defaulter? You are still fast but not doing anything illegal. No one can bowl at zero degree or in other sense all are chuckers. Live with it.
 
He's not technically a chucker as he doesn't straighten his arm at the point of delivery. He's just a cheat. By flexing his arm beyond 15º it, it enables him to use his double jointed wrist to impart spin to such an effect. It gives him an advantage that breaks the laws. Those tests with his arm in a cast only proved that he is capable of keeping his arm within the 15º if he wants to, but when you watch him bowl you can plainly see that he almost always flexes it way beyond 15º. If he didn't flex it so much he couldn't achieve the same amount and variety of spin.

http://aftergrogblog.blogs.com/agb/images/Murali-Protractor.jpg
 
boycott_IPL said:
He's not technically a chucker as he doesn't straighten his arm at the point of delivery. He's just a cheat. By flexing his arm beyond 15º it, it enables him to use his double jointed wrist to impart spin to such an effect. It gives him an advantage that breaks the laws. Those tests with his arm in a cast only proved that he is capable of keeping his arm within the 15º if he wants to, but when you watch him bowl you can plainly see that he almost always flexes it way beyond 15º. If he didn't flex it so much he couldn't achieve the same amount and variety of spin.

http://aftergrogblog.blogs.com/agb/images/Murali-Protractor.jpg
Click to expand...

Ofcourse you know much more than Michael Slater - an International batsman who has faced Murali WITH and WITHOUT a cast, he knows Murali doesnt chuck as he says facing Murali with a cast is just as tough without a cast
 
Random Aussie said:
Yes he bends his elbow more than 15 degrees. Intentionally and when he needs do during a match to get more spin.

He was clocked at 14.6 degrees in testing, you think he does not go that extra 0.4 during a match and therefore chucks?
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Fantastic point.
 
definitely a chucker...don't care what the science says
 
Random Aussie said:
Yes he bends his elbow more than 15 degrees. Intentionally and when he needs do during a match to get more spin.

He was clocked at 14.6 degrees in testing, you think he does not go that extra 0.4 during a match and therefore chucks?
Click to expand...
From where did you get this information? Also what about other bowlers test results?
 
Geordie Ahmed said:
Ofcourse you know much more than Michael Slater - an International batsman who has faced Murali WITH and WITHOUT a cast, he knows Murali doesnt chuck as he says facing Murali with a cast is just as tough without a cast
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Again for people who care to read my post correctly I said he doesn't chuck, but he's a cheat.
When they did that test with the plaster Slater faced him for few balls in the nets and he said he still got lots of spin. Hardly the same is it. The facts remains the same for Mr "35º" Murali.
 
The part that bothers me about his bowling is that he can bowl legitimately as shown with his leg spin bowling action.
 
If only his action were legitimate, with his achievements he would have been among the top 3 cricketers ever in company with Bradman and Sobers. Look at his bloody record, 777 Test wickets and 511 ODI wickets. It's like a batsman scoring more than 15,000 Test runs and 18,000 ODI runs.
 
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boycott_IPL said:
Again for people who care to read my post correctly I said he doesn't chuck, but he's a cheat.
When they did that test with the plaster Slater faced him for few balls in the nets and he said he still got lots of spin. Hardly the same is it. The facts remains the same for Mr "35º" Murali.
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He doesnt chuck BUT he is a cheat? :))) :))) :))) :)))
 
the most blatant chucker in the history. Followed by Shoaib, Lee, McGrath, Malik, Harbhajan, Botha, etc.

I am old fashioned. If it looks like its a chuck, it most likely is. Ban them all.
 
Stewie said:
the most blatant chucker in the history. Followed by Shoaib, Lee, McGrath, Malik, Harbhajan, Botha, etc.

I am old fashioned. If it looks like its a chuck, it most likely is. Ban them all.
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:13:

cleanest action ive seen
 
McGrath use to straighten his arm as well early on in his career. not many people have noticed it.
 
boycott_IPL said:
Uhmm, yes what's the problem?

OK let me explain it to you as if you were a 10 year old.

Chuck = bend and then straighten the arm on delivery
Cheat = bend your arm at 35ª when you bowl


http://aftergrogblog.blogs.com/agb/images/Murali-Protractor.jpg

Is that the joke?
Click to expand...

You clearly have no idea what chucking is and the fact that you use a 2d image with a protractor to back your case sums it up really
 
Geordie Ahmed said:
You clearly have no idea what chucking is and the fact that you use a 2d image with a protractor to back your case sums it up really
Click to expand...

What you fail to respond to is my saying that Murali bends his arm consistently more than 15º. Do you deny it?
 
Geordie Ahmed said:
You clearly have no idea what chucking is and the fact that you use a 2d image with a protractor to back your case sums it up really
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Oh yeah, since when were geometrical angles in more than 2 dimensions?
 
Who said murli has deformity,he just has good elasticity in his wrist not arm.
While shoaib arm look free,which can move towards both side on elbow joint.
 
Xohaib said:
Who said murli has deformity,he just has good elasticity in his wrist not arm.
While shoaib arm look free,which can move towards both side on elbow joint.
Click to expand...

Murali's was born with an unusual arm. Thats fact. Go look it up mate. :)
 
boycott_IPL said:
Again for people who care to read my post correctly I said he doesn't chuck, but he's a cheat.
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Why is he a cheat? What about ICC which is letting him play? If you were him, would you announce your retirement as soon as The cheat Hair called you for chucking 10 or so years ago??
 
Imran_m said:
Once you look at the following video you can clearly see that he can clearly bowl with a perfectly legal action without even having to possibly exceed 10 degrees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UUXgc1rLMQ

This begs the question is it really a deformity that prevents him from bowling with the legal action?
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thats him bowling leggies..not off spinners..Murali is an off spinner
 
He has a hypermobile arm/ elbow joint

I have a hypermobile ankle, however i went through a few weeks of physiotherapy and now i can walk with a straight ankle, until i get tired, all i have to do is tense my inner muscle slightly, so I can walk with a straight ankle just cant do it after long activities.
 
BD-fan said:
And Random Aussie saw him bending 15 degrees? He must have been watching all pie chuckers coming out of Aussie academies. I saw Murali cutting back to 12 degrees.
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That's not RA's point. Everyone knows that his action produces an optical illusion, which makes it seems that he is flexing his arm. Research shows that EVERYBODY flex their arms to some extent and it is impossible to NOT flex your arm while bowling. But, in normal bowlers with legal actions the flex is not noticeable by the naked eye. Due to the optical illusion created by Murali's action, his action seems to be a lot worse than any other suspected chuckers, hence, the doubters' continued concerns, even after Murali has been cleared. This is because what the bio mechanical analysis shows is that Murali is ABLE to bowl within the 15 degree rule, not that he bowls every delivery within the allowed limit. They said the same thing even after clearing Ajmal's action. So, since Murali's action seems outrageous to the naked eye, there is no guarantee that he bowls eery delivery legally. As RA mentioned, he has been clocked at 14.6 degrees. How sure can you be that he doesn't go that extra 0.4 degrees SOMETIMES? And you said he has cut back to 12 degrees. How sure can you be that he doesn't flex by only 3 more degrees SOMETIMES? The 15 degree rule is established taking into consideration the minimum angle that can be detected by the naked eye, and Murali's action seems awkward even when he's bowling within the allowed limit. Therefore, RA and other doubters' concern.
 
Stewie said:
the most blatant chucker in the history. Followed by Shoaib, Lee, McGrath, Malik, Harbhajan, Botha, etc.
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You're kidding, right? :10:
boycott_IPL said:
Chuck = bend and then straighten the arm on delivery
Cheat = bend your arm at 35ª when you bowl
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If he's not chucking, how is he cheating? :20:
 
murli is not a chucker, but malinga is in my opinion he is gonna kill one of the umpires one day.
 
LG said:
Everyone knows that his action produces an optical illusion, which makes it seems that he is flexing his arm. Research shows that EVERYBODY flex their arms to some extent and it is impossible to NOT flex your arm while bowling. But, in normal bowlers with legal actions the flex is not noticeable by the naked eye. Due to the optical illusion created by Murali's action, his action seems to be a lot worse than any other suspected chuckers
Click to expand...

Yeah we've heard this reasoning also a thousand times. The old optical illusion thing. I think you like many people aren't really sure what 'flexion' is. It means bending the arm at the elbow (when you touch your right shoulder with your right hand). This is the opposite of 'extension' which is when you straighten your arm from the bent position.


Now the original concept or 'throwing' meant that a bowler would bend his arm before straightening it at the point of delivery (like a baseball pitch) beyond a certain degree. In cricket there are two aspects of the throwing law:
1) the degree in which the arm is straightened from the flexed position
2) the degree of arm flexion during delivery

The 'optical illision' that so many Murali supporters stick to is that he doesn't flex his arm as much as it looks. This is not the case. His arm is bent throughout the whole delivery and IF THERE IS AN OPTICAL ILLUSION IT IS THAT FROM CERTAIN ANGLES IT LOOKS LIKE HIS ARM IS STRAIGHTER THAN IT IS.

Murali cheats not because of part 1 of the law (which is what at first was thought) but part 2.

I have said these same words in so many cricket forums but no one can come up with anything to counter this, except for this 'optical illusion' thing or other personal judgements. From the shoulder high position to just befoer the point of delivery Murali often bowls deliveries FLEXING HIS ARM MORE THAN 15º and gets away with it. Nobody can honestly deny this. Simple and plain - just look.
 
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Is Murali a chucker?

Muralidharan has often been accused of throwing the ball. I would like to know from you folks, what is your opinion about him. Is he really a chucker?

I would request the moderators to add a poll to this.
 
He's been to the ICC's labs and back, so no, he is not a chucker!

although expect many others to disagree
 
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BDxRhcpBZio" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
he appears to be one, but in the labs he has been proven not to be one. I will go with the proven thing. Looks can be deceiving. Just to be clear, I hate his chucking style action personally. But legally he is not a chucker and his 800 legal wickets will stand the test of time.
 
Ajmal was cleared by the labs as well...didn't stop certain certain well known commentators from attacking him saying he probably made an 'adjustment' in lab testing conditions and still chucks in game.

I guess same logic can be applied to Murali no?
 
Zippy said:
Ajmal was cleared by the labs as well...didn't stop certain certain well known commentators from attacking him saying he probably made an 'adjustment' in lab testing conditions and still chucks in game.

I guess same logic can be applied to Murali no?
Click to expand...

I am sure they made Ajmal bowl a doosra in the lab. If he can bowl it without breaking the rules in there, he is in the clear.


Haters gonna Hate!
 
Zippy said:
Ajmal was cleared by the labs as well...didn't stop certain certain well known commentators from attacking him saying he probably made an 'adjustment' in lab testing conditions and still chucks in game.

I guess same logic can be applied to Murali no?
Click to expand...

Same logic can be applied to any bowler in the world. In fact, it's easier for bowlers with clear action to bowl 1 or 2 delivery with bent elbow in every spell or match. People never check their arm and there is less chances that it will be noticed.
 
graters%2Bgonna%2Bgrate.jpg


No, he isn't.
 
I think his offie was legit but he chucked some of his doosras.

IMO he was able to change the rules so that the umps couldn't call him for fear of diplomatic incident.
 
Icc had given him the green signal so no problem.my personal opinion is people like him with a very unorthodox action actually making use of his disability to pick up wickets which is not fare compared to bowlers with orthodox bowling actions.Australian and indian players dominated him but murali dominated other teams this shows the difference in attitude and character of teams when they face slightly different bowlers
 
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If just by bending one's arm, an offie could be so successful, we would have seen many Murali clones everywhere picking truckloads of wickets. Obviously there was more to him than just that bent arm.

Th little man had a wonderful natural talent, especially those supple wrists of a magician. The bent arm may have helped him sometimes, but in general once the ICC cleared him, there should be no issues with his action.

http://www.ielm.ust.hk/dfaculty/ravi/murali01.html

Remember, if you call him a chucker based on opinion, then the lab tests had proved the guys like Pollock, Mcgrath, Donald etc to be over the permissible limit in the 90s as well.

ICC study reveals that 99% chuck
 
A simple qestion to those who believe the validity of the ICC tests, would you continue to drive over the speed limit if there was a police car behind you?
 
cricketindiafan said:
If just by bending one's arm, an offie could be so successful, we would have seen many Murali clones everywhere picking truckloads of wickets. Obviously there was more to him than just that bent arm.

Th little man had a wonderful natural talent, especially those supple wrists of a magician. The bent arm may have helped him sometimes, but in general once the ICC cleared him, there should be no issues with his action.

http://www.ielm.ust.hk/dfaculty/ravi/murali01.html

Remember, if you call him a chucker based on opinion, then the lab tests had proved the guys like Pollock, Mcgrath, Donald etc to be over the permissible limit in the 90s as well.

ICC study reveals that 99% chuck
Click to expand...

But an article by Derek Pringle in The Daily Telegraph suggests that Murali is no different from the vast majority of his fellow players. The current law states that there should be no straightening or partial straightening of the bowling arm during delivery, and research conducted with precise instrumentation has revealed that even bowlers like Glenn McGrath and Shaun Pollock, considered examplars of the classical action, occasionally go over the prescribed tolerance limit, bending their arms by as much as 12 degrees.

The tolerance levels had been set at five degrees for spinners, seven-and-a-half for medium-pacers, and 10 for quick bowlers, a scenario that had invited much criticism from past greats like Ian Chappell. But the study conducted by three prominent biomechanics experts suggests that the human eye can only detect a kink in the action if the straightening is more than 15 degrees. Based on these findings, the ICC is likely to extend the tolerance limit to 15 degrees for all bowlers, regardless of whether they bowl at Shane Warne's pace or Shoaib Akhtar's. Match officials will still be expected to note down suspicious actions, and pass on the information to the ICC. But unlike before, remedial action will now be the sole preserve of a new body to the set up to help bowlers with the rehabiliation process.
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I once read in a cricket magazine that the reason for allowing different angle limit for different types of bowlers was the speed with which they move their arm during bowling action. Traditionally it was considered that slow bowlers always move their arm slower than a pace bowler. However it was found that some bowlers like Murli move their arm as fast as fast bowlers. That's why the same limit was set for all types of bowlers rather than using lower limit for slower bowlers.
 
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He chucks the ball. Made cricket a more interesting sport though so i don't really have a problem with it.
 
Why is it so hard to believe that bowlers will sometimes go over the 15 degrees threshold while at other times they wont.

Most spinners who use the 'doosra' bowl legally for most of the time but their effort ball is clearly a chuck no matter what way their supporters try and spin it.

And the ICC can do nothing about it apart from banning people like Shillingford and Samuels because of course they have to be seen to be taking action.
 
Robert said:
I think his offie was legit but he chucked some of his doosras.

IMO he was able to change the rules so that the umps couldn't call him for fear of diplomatic incident.
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So if an English/Saffer import develops a doosra in a few years then will the doosra become an art like the reverse swing has now become?

Pre 2005 reverse swing=ball tampering
Post 2005 ashes, reverse swing= genuine art and legit...


Ahh the English and their perceived morals...
 
in_cutter said:
Saqlain says hello
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200 odd test wickets @ 30 is not enough to suggest he was the best ever off spinner.

In odis maybe but not in the truest form of the game. Even Swann will finish off with a better record than Saqi. Of course that's not all Saqlains fault, he was just unlucky that injury ruined his career.
 
Yes.

Theres a reason why most people rate Warne much much much higher as a spinner, when Murali has a much much better test and ODI record.
 
Kray_jackson7 said:
Maybe them same people should remember warne isnt exactly free from controversies himself.
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I never said Murali was controversial. I said. He. Chucks. The. Ball.

I don't care what Shane Warne does in his private life. Doesn't change the fact he's a better bowler.
 
According to Ian Chappell Warne also chucks some of his deliveries

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wHGvi7X093Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Muttiah Muralitharan is not just a chucker, he is the chucker.

The ICC's political correctness and appeasement policies on this have led to many chuckers getting to the top level since 1995.
 
James said:
Muttiah Muralitharan is not just a chucker, he is the chucker.

The ICC's political correctness and appeasement policies on this have led to many chuckers getting to the top level since 1995.
Click to expand...

Surprised to read this from you. Had a change of mind?
 
nish_mate said:
So if an English/Saffer import develops a doosra in a few years then will the doosra become an art like the reverse swing has now become?

Pre 2005 reverse swing=ball tampering
Post 2005 ashes, reverse swing= genuine art and legit...


Ahh the English and their perceived morals...
Click to expand...

Stop putting words in my mouth, please. I never said reverse swing was an art.

The trick is to alter the ball without ball-tampering with fingernails and substances. England are very good at that. Pakistan in 1992 were not - they were blatant actually!

No English bowler will ever develop a doosra because it is chucking, and will be prevented by the coaches and umps at school level.
 
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James said:
Muttiah Muralitharan is not just a chucker, he is the chucker.

The ICC's political correctness and appeasement policies on this have led to many chuckers getting to the top level since 1995.
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Won't be many proper bowlers left if "chucking" wasn't legalized. I do understand where you are coming from though. Maybe his doosra should have remained banned for the greater good but then again what about quicks whose effort balls were found to be going over the limit as well? You can't just ignore something like that.
 
I don't blame Murali for taking 800 wickets. He had a great cricket brain.

It's an issue of systemic failure. How can lab-testing conditions ever come close to emulating a match situation, for a start?
 
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