Wasim Akram v Imran Khan - The Debate Continues

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Wasim Akram v Imran Khan

by Saad Shafqat

Like a wildfire spewing flames towards the sky, it erupts uncontrollably when the mix is right. All you need are a few passionate and opinionated Pakistan fans, an atmosphere of spirited contention, and someone willing to light the match. As you can imagine, in Pakistan this isn't asking for much, and so the great debate erupts frequently and fervently.

Most people know instinctively which side they are on, and positions are staked out right away. The few, who start out genuinely neutral, discover very soon they are anything but. Before long, emotions rise to a crescendo and tempers begin to simmer. The exchange becomes intense, headed towards intractability.

The opening gambit is almost always the same, namely that Wasim Akram, who was once described as possessing the left arm of God, could move the ball both ways, sometimes in the same delivery. Footage of Akram swinging it like a yo-yo has left legions speechless, so this point is naturally impossible to refute. It can only be countered by a parallel argument which, if it is to survive the heat of debate, must be based on hard data.

This is usually the time for Imran Khan loyalists to respond with a trusted opening move of their own. Imran finished his Test career with a better bowling average than Akram - 362 wickets at 22.81 compared with Akram's 414 at 23.62. It's not a huge divide - Imran only gave 0.81 runs less per wicket than Akram - but over careers spanning two decades, such a sustained separation becomes significant. Imran's Test strike rate (53.7) and economy (2.54) are also better than Akram's (54.6 and 2.59); again, not by much, but Imran does come out ahead.

Akram's supporters know they cannot win if the battle moves to statistics. Although Akram's ODI figures (502 wickets at 23.52, SR 36.2, econ 3.89) are better than Imran's (182 wickets at 26.61, SR 40.9, econ 3.89), Imran's career was already half-over before ODI cricket at the international level really took off. Akram, by contrast, arrived when the ODI circuit had come into full bloom.

The argument for Akram's supremacy needs a visceral approach. In Pakistani cricket gatherings, it doesn't get more visceral than evoking the memory of March 25, 1992. Everyone who saw those two deliveries that castled Allan Lamb and Chris Lewis were astounded, and even today, if you watch them on YouTube, you cannot help shaking your head. Timing adds to the mystique - the two best deliveries of Akram's career, and what a moment to produce them.

Imran's camp fully understands the emotional weight of this appeal. They reach deep into their arsenal and come up with Christmas Day 1982. This is no ordinary reference: late afternoon in Karachi; the ball begins to reverse as the breeze blows in from the sea; Imran takes five Indian wickets for three runs in the space of 25 balls; which included Sunil Gavaskar, Gundappa Viswanath, Mohinder Amarnath, Sandeep Patil, and Kapil Dev. It's a formidable counter-response, but it can only go so far. A Test match (even one against India) is not the same as the final of the World Cup.

Some friends and I once had the opportunity to ask Javed Miandad where he stood on the great debate. Miandad's initial response was to insist on framing the question narrowly. So we did: Let's say you're having a net facing Akram and Imran, both of whom are at their peak; who would trouble you more? Miandad closed his eyes and for several seconds and appeared deep in thought. Then he gave his verdict: Akram. Why? Because he could move it both ways with greater skill than Imran. Of course, there's more to bowling greatness than bowling well in the nets, but Miandad wouldn't be dragged into the larger debate.

On another occasion, my fellow Cricinfo blogger Kamran Abbasi and I once found ourselves in the company of Sanjay Manjrekar and Ramiz Raja. This was in Multan during a Pakistan-Bangladesh Test that happened to be going through a rather dull period. Sure enough, someone lit the match, and arguments came pouring forth. Ramiz was championing Akram and his view ultimately prevailed, but it wasn't pretty.

It is probably true that Akram die-hards outnumber Imran's supporters in the great debate, and they also tend to be more passionate. Those who argue for Imran tend to be more clinical and academic, probably because the arguments in favour of Imran are themselves rather clinical and academic.

Most people acknowledge that Imran was a more committed bowler, who never gave less than 100%. Akram, for better or worse, is still remembered as the kind of guy who could pull up with a side strain on the morning of a World Cup quarter-final. Imran bowled many overs through a stress fracture of the shin. For about a year and a half - the second half of 1983 and all of 1984 - this injury robbed him of his best bowling days. Who knows how much more he would have achieved without this unfortunate interlude.

There is also the matter of opposition quality. Imran didn’t play any Tests against the likes of Zimbabwe and Bangladesh and played a total of only two ODIs against them. But in Akram's case, 47 of his Test wickets (at 22.36) and 42 of his ODI wickets (at 20.92) have come from these teams.

For an amicable end to the great debate, you need a few people around who are willing to accept that the question of whether Akram or Imran was the greater bowler is complex and many-faceted. I was recently at a dinner party where the mood was right and the debate was kindled yet again. Arguments followed a predictable trajectory, and before long the dialogue had become intransigent. Our host, a moderate cricket follower skilled at diplomacy, brought closure when he said Akram was the greater bowler, but Imran was no less. I have memorised that line for the next iteration of the great debate.


http://blogs.cricinfo.com/diffstrokes/archives/2009/09/wasim_akram_v_imran_khan.php

To add my two cents, I think in a comparison strictly focused on bowling, Wasim takes it. His bowling was just magic, and he struck fear into every batsmen and even fans of other teams. I didn't see much of Imran at his peak (other than some videos), but I still believe Wasim was the best fast bowler in the history of International cricket, not just Pakistan cricket. :wasim
 
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"To add my two cents, I think in a comparison strictly focused on bowling, Wasim takes it. His bowling was just magic, and he struck fear into every batsmen and even fans of other teams. I didn't see much of Imran at his peak (other than some videos), but I still believe Wasim was the best fast bowler in the history of International cricket, not just Pakistan cricket."

I agree with you on that, in my opinon Wasim Akram was the best fast bowler in the history of pakistan cricket, and then follows the legend Imran Khan.
 
Reading this article, you get the impression that if Wasim wasn't a better bowler to watch this wouldnt even be an argument.
 
Imran as an all-rounder

Wasim as a bowler
 
Of all Wasim's magic and ability with the ball...there is only the two wickets in WC final to write home about....where are wasim's magical performances against top opposition in tests...even Fazal Mehmood had 4 instances where he decimated the opposition, single handedly winning pakistan test matches by taking more then 10 wickets...the fact that wasim wasn't able to emulate his predecessors namely Imran in dominating the top opposition is the biggest reason why Pakistan were mediocre for the better part of 90s even though they had the most talented Pakistan team ever put together and probably the best on paper in the world at the time....Even Shoaib had a memorable performance against Aussies in Colombo where he destroyed the vaunted Aussies batting lineup, Imran had his Sydney test, Karachi test, and even as late as 1988 when he was finished as a bowler in Windies the man took 11 wickets to win Pakistan a test match against the top team and world champion of the past decade and a half...

Wasim was one of those fighter planes that could do all those fancy maneuvers in airshows, but when it came to combat they came up short and all their fancy maneuverability went to waste...

Wasim easily the mentally weakest great player from Pakistan
 
Cheguvera said:
Of all Wasim's magic and ability with the ball...there is only the two wickets in WC final to write home about....where are wasim's magical performances against top opposition in tests...even Fazal Mehmood had 4 instances where he decimated the opposition, single handedly winning pakistan test matches by taking more then 10 wickets...the fact that wasim wasn't able to emulate his predecessors namely Imran in dominating the top opposition is the biggest reason why Pakistan were mediocre for the better part of 90s even though they had the most talented Pakistan team ever put together and probably the best on paper in the world at the time....Even Shoaib had a memorable performance against Aussies in Colombo where he destroyed the vaunted Aussies batting lineup, Imran had his Sydney test, Karachi test, and even as late as 1988 when he was finished as a bowler in Windies the man took 11 wickets to win Pakistan a test match against the top team and world champion of the past decade and a half...

Wasim was one of those fighter planes that could do all those fancy maneuvers in airshows, but when it came to combat they came up short and all their fancy maneuverability went to waste...

Wasim easily the mentally weakest great player from Pakistan

^^Harsh.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue any of you're points. It would be too tiring.

Back to the question at hand: Wasim great Imran greater.
 
This article is focusing on the bowling of the two men, so lets keep the discussion on that. As an allround player, I'm sure everyone picks Imran.

Who was the better bowler?
 
Cheguvera said:
Of all Wasim's magic and ability with the ball...there is only the two wickets in WC final to write home about....where are wasim's magical performances against top opposition in tests...even Fazal Mehmood had 4 instances where he decimated the opposition, single handedly winning pakistan test matches by taking more then 10 wickets...the fact that wasim wasn't able to emulate his predecessors namely Imran in dominating the top opposition is the biggest reason why Pakistan were mediocre for the better part of 90s even though they had the most talented Pakistan team ever put together and probably the best on paper in the world at the time....Even Shoaib had a memorable performance against Aussies in Colombo where he destroyed the vaunted Aussies batting lineup, Imran had his Sydney test, Karachi test, and even as late as 1988 when he was finished as a bowler in Windies the man took 11 wickets to win Pakistan a test match against the top team and world champion of the past decade and a half...

Wasim was one of those fighter planes that could do all those fancy maneuvers in airshows, but when it came to combat they came up short and all their fancy maneuverability went to waste...

Wasim easily the mentally weakest great player from Pakistan
Easily forgetting Melbourne 10 fer,Karachi 94 and sydney 95.
 
Imran by mile for the following reasons.
1.Imran took 42 less wickets in 21 less tests if you take the games out where did not bowl because of injury its more like 30 tests.
2.Imran in his last 50 tests averages 19 which proves how good he was.
3.Imran in the later part of his career only played in important series while sitting out against weaker opposition hence his already superior stats are worth even more.
4.Imran performed against the best team in the world WI home and away on the other hand Wasim did not perform in aus notably 95 and 99.
5.Imran left a fantastic fast bowling legacy which Wasim could not do despite having great talents like shoaib and zahid at his disposal.
 
Juggernaut said:
Leave it Siddharth. Che's post is just derailing the thread.
No,he is acting as if Wasim didn't do anything when he is the highest wicket taker agaisnt the Aussies in the 90s with the best average and 1 10 fer and 4 5 fers i guess.Who else has got that figure.
 
Karachi was a team effort if I remember correctly and sydney was a dead rubber won by Mushi who took 18 wickets in two tests after being left out of the first test by our genius captain sahab.
Wasim as man and captain did pakistan cricket so much harm despite all his talents.
 
saeed-sohail said:
Karachi was a team effort if I remember correctly and sydney was a dead rubber won by Mushi who took 18 wickets in two tests after being left out of the first test by our genius captain sahab.
Wasim as man and captain did pakistan cricket so much harm despite all his talents.

Thank you Saeed-sohail for putting things in perspective for Wasim's fans...and I couldn't agree with you more on wasim doing the most harm to Pakistani cricket in the 90s...besides match fixing he presided over some of the most embarrassing debacle in Pakistan's cricket history...

Going back to the karachi test of 94...as saeed-sohail said it was a team effort, waqar took only one less wicket and along with Mushy did most of the top order damage in aussie's second innings...amongst Akram's 8 wickets in the match 4 were bona fide tail enders, Angel twice, May and Healy...

Wasim bhai had an uncanny ability to under use and disuse some of most potent bowling assets at his disposal, besides not picking Mushy in the first test of the 95 series, he also chose to under bowl Waqar in the Hobart test of 99 when Waqar was reversing the ball and picking up wickets...

As Wasim's post retirement behavior has shown the only thing that matters to him is money...true greats of Pakistan with singular objective of taking Pakistan to the top were Imran and Miandad...sadly Waseem bhai falls in the Saleem Malik category...
 
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Cheguvera said:
Thank you Saeed-sohail for putting things in perspective for Wasim's fans...and I couldn't agree with you more on wasim doing the most harm to Pakistani cricket in the 90s...besides match fixing he presided over some of the most embarrassing debacle in Pakistan's cricket history...
Why you guys keep such a person in the team.And why he got that many MOM awards and MOS awards,if he was just showing off?
 
i cant really answer because all i have heard are legends of imran khan because i was to young (or not born) when he was playing But i saw alot of wasim later career. but i have to say The stories of Imran are probably exagerated but it is a tough choice. i will go for the one i watched on Tv not just mini clips from youtube.

Wasim Akram
 
well, over all, I think Imran does not have any match in Pakistan cricket since late 1970's.
 
siddharth said:
Why you guys keep such a person in the team.And why he got that many MOM awards and MOS awards,if he was just showing off?

Be sure to tell your compatriots at cricindia to add another critical stat on the bowling figures, in fact they ought to swap wickets or 5 wicket hauls or 10 wicket hauls (since wasim bhai is seriously lacking in this department) with MOM...

The debate is regarding bowling, let's keep MOM out of it...
 
Cheguvera said:
Be sure to tell your compatriots at cricindia to add another critical stat on the bowling figures, in fact they ought to swap wickets or 5 wicket hauls or 10 wicket hauls (since wasim bhai is seriously lacking in this department) with MOM...

The debate is regarding bowling, let's keep MOM out of it...
Oh I didn't know that Wasim hadn't had any 5 fers and 10 fers,thank you for the information.Now I will pass this onto cricindia.
 
siddharth said:
Oh I didn't know that Wasim hadn't had any 5 fers and 10 fers,thank you for the information.Now I will pass this onto cricindia.

Try again, that comment was meant for 10 wicket hauls...which are one less then Imran's in 20 odd more tests...even Waqar has the same number of 10 wicket hauls in 17 less tests...
 
Cheguvera said:
Try again, that comment was meant for 10 wicket hauls...which are one less then Imran's in 20 odd more tests...even Waqar has the same number of 10 wicket hauls in 17 less tests...
What do you think about Glenn Mcgrath? Is he greater than Wasim?
 
I brough Mcgrath here simply he has only 3 10 fers which in your terms is less worthy.So he was pretty useless,i guess.
 
siddharth said:
What do you think about Glenn Mcgrath? Is he greater than Wasim?

Please open up a separate thread for that debate...different dynamics at play in Wasim vs. McGrath comparison...
 
Cheguvera said:
Try again, that comment was meant for 10 wicket hauls...which are one less then Imran's in 20 odd more tests...even Waqar has the same number of 10 wicket hauls in 17 less tests...
BTW I ahve already opined in another thread that Imran> Wasim.But your tone is irritating and annoying.You had full of disrespect and disreagard for Wasim as if he didn't even exist.

You can veryu well say one is better than other without mocking them.I guess.
 
Is this the same hobart test where waqar picked ponting and mark waugh cheaply but was underbowled as WE had our strategy revolving around saqlain despite aussies working him out after first innings.
 
saeed-sohail said:
Is this the same hobart test where waqar picked ponting and mark waugh cheaply but was underbowled as WE had our strategy revolving around saqlain despite aussies working him out after first innings.
That was the worst captaincy by him I evr saw.
 
siddharth said:
BTW I ahve already opined in another thread that Imran> Wasim.But your tone is irritating and annoying.You had full of disrespect and disreagard for Wasim as if he didn't even exist.

You can veryu well say one is better than other without mocking them.I guess.

Wasim may be your God but he is only a human to me...besides being critical of his cricketing career is not being disrespectful...it's my opinion, take it or leave it...you have no right to call my tone irritating or annoying, you can try not reading my posts...
 
saeed-sohail said:
Is this the same hobart test where waqar picked ponting and mark waugh cheaply but was underbowled as WE had our strategy revolving around saqlain despite aussies working him out after first innings.

Indeed it was...
 
Cheguvera said:
Wasim may be your God but he is only a human to me...besides being critical of his cricketing career is not being disrespectful...it's my opinion, take it or leave it...you have no right to call my tone irritating or annoying, you can try not reading my posts...
:))) :))) :))) Well I am off feeling sleepy.Anyway your legends,why would I need to defend.Bye,
 
I have seen both Imran and Akram at their peaks.
Imran when on song and running with his angled run up was a sight to see as well. I am sure he put fear in the batsman just like Akram may have done. On just the bowling ability alone Akram I think was ahead of Imran as he had more control on the ball and as many have said could do things with the ball you could not comprehend.

But the bottom line is who delivered more especially when it mattered most. The record shows it was Imran who time and time again won Paksitan matches especially against superior sides. You have to also keep in mind that Wasim had Waqar and (for some part Akhtar) bowling from other side which may have been a great help. Imran on the other hand was pretty much a one man show, he only got good help from Akram in the late 80's but by then Imran was already a spent force.
 
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Cheguvera said:
Of all Wasim's magic and ability with the ball...there is only the two wickets in WC final to write home about....where are wasim's magical performances against top opposition in tests...even Fazal Mehmood had 4 instances where he decimated the opposition, single handedly winning pakistan test matches by taking more then 10 wickets...the fact that wasim wasn't able to emulate his predecessors namely Imran in dominating the top opposition is the biggest reason why Pakistan were mediocre for the better part of 90s even though they had the most talented Pakistan team ever put together and probably the best on paper in the world at the time....Even Shoaib had a memorable performance against Aussies in Colombo where he destroyed the vaunted Aussies batting lineup, Imran had his Sydney test, Karachi test, and even as late as 1988 when he was finished as a bowler in Windies the man took 11 wickets to win Pakistan a test match against the top team and world champion of the past decade and a half...

Wasim was one of those fighter planes that could do all those fancy maneuvers in airshows, but when it came to combat they came up short and all their fancy maneuverability went to waste...

Wasim easily the mentally weakest great player from Pakistan

So does that mean that Shoaib is a greater bowler than Akram, since Shoaib destroyed Australia? Does that mean the Aqib Javed is better as well, since his best ODI figures are better than Akram's? Etc, etc.
 
siddharth said:
:))) :))) :))) Well I am off feeling sleepy.Anyway your legends,why would I need to defend.Bye,

Oh I thought you guys deified him just like sachin...my bad...I guess being a Pakistani he wouldn't qualify... :wasim
 
Blistering Barnacle said:
So does that mean that Shoaib is a greater bowler than Akram, since Shoaib destroyed Australia? Does that mean the Aqib Javed is better as well, since his best ODI figures are better than Akram's? Etc, etc.

Try harder...
 
Cheguvera said:
Oh I thought you guys deified him just like sachin...my bad...I guess being a Pakistani he wouldn't qualify... :wasim


WTH.. This is taking cheap shots at someone, and not even for that person's view, but a group of people, and that's mass stereotyping. Why dont you spend some time answering his and Blistering Barnacle's questions rather than mocking them.

Or are you just another (I'm always right... I dont care about what others say no matter how right they may be)??

That tone is irritating
 
I posted this on another thread, but it pretty much proves conclusively that Imran is better than Wasim:

It's tough given that Wasim is my favorite bowler, but I believe Imran is his superior. I have to laugh at all those who say "Wasim is better by a mile," how can you say that if you look at their records. I believe Imran is better that Wasim for the following reasons:

- Imran and Wasim were both complete bowlers, but while Imran used every ounce of talent to perfect his bowling, Wasim definitely did underachieve, and I say this as a fan. A man of his talent, you felt he deserved around 100 more wickets than he ended up with. The reason is that towards the end of his career, he was so awkward a proposition that batsmen just focused on playing him out and attacking others. The latter several years of his career was not as fruitful as a result.

- During their respective peaks (Imran 80-88, Wasim 90-99), Imran was far more consistent than Wasim. Imran rarely if ever had a poor series whereas Wasim often left outside factors affect his bowling, such as in West Indies in 93.

- Statistically, its pretty clear that Imran is ahead of Wasim on pretty much every measure (average, strikerate, you name it). Against the best side they faced, Imran was much more successful against the West Indies than Wasim was against Australia. Against others, with the passable exception of New Zealand, Imran averaged <25 against everyone, whereas Wasim averaged 28 against India, 29 against SA, and 30 against England, all more than decent batting sides. If you remove Zimbabwe from Wasim's record (a minnow Imran never played) the difference is even more apparent. And this doesn't even take into account the latter years when Imran was merely bowling support.

- In terms of rankings, the ICC a few years ago declared Imran among the top ten test bowlers of all-time, well ahead of Wasim (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/31135739.cms). They also declared Imran's bowling peak the best of any bowler of the modern era. Wasim wasn't even in the top 50! (http://www.iccreliancerankings.com/...e/test/bowling/)

- Imran was much more capable of running through a side and winning a match singlehandely than Wasim. In fact, it would be hard to point to a a single occasion where Wasim ran through top class opposition to win a match the way Imran did against England in 82 and 87, Australia in 77, India in 82/83, and WI in 88. Imran took 8 6-fers, 3 7-fers and 2 8-fers in 88 matches (quite a few he didnt even bowl in), while Wasim only has 5 6-fers and 1 7-fer in 104 matches, that too against New Zealand (7-119).

- Imran faced a much more uphill task than Wasim in getting to the top. Through sheer will and ambition he transformed himself from a medium pacer to a fast bowler at a time when his country and region had none. Wasim had mentoring and quality bowling support from the get go.

- In terms of actual influence, Imran was much more influential. Imran started an entire legacy of fast bowlers, was the first to perfect reverse swing, and mentored both Ws. Wasim cant compare to Imran's gigantic impact.

I know this will be a tough pill for us Wasim fans to swallow, but my impression is that Imran's captaincy and all-round skills dont put as much attention to how great a bowler he really was.
 
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I think if we don't get a good definition of what constitutes 'greatness', then thid thread will go nowhere. If greatness if having an aura, being able to bowl magical, memorable spells and deliveries and being a spectator's delight, then Wasim would be your man. If greatness is more related to performance, ability to perform well in the big matches, in tough conditions, and against the best opposition, and to have a lasting influence on the game and your country, then Imran is the natural choice. I go for the latter.
 
I was just going through scorecards of 95 and 99. aus tour and noticed this.
Sydney test Waqar bowled 17 overs in the whole match compared Wasim,s 30+ Wasim picked 6 wickets waqar 3.
In 99. Hobart test waqar bowled a grand total of 23 overs compared to Wasim and shoaib,s 40+ and guess what they all picked 2 wickets apiece.
Looking into it more deeply in first innings waqar picks ponting and m waugh lbw and bowled but bowls only 12 overs but Wasim and shoaib bowl 20 and 17 respectively and pick wicket apiece.
In second innings its same again with saqlain bowling a crazy 40+ overs and Wasim and shoaib their quota of 20 odd but waqar gets only 11 overs.
Now there was one of the best fast bowler grossly under used at arguably peak of his career for personal differences at the cost of pakistan cricket team.
 
Waqar's peak was from 90-94 before a back injury cut around 10mphs of pace from his bowling. Waqar in 99 was a shadow of the bowler he once was. Its true he was underbowled though.
 
Waqar suffered back injury in 91/92 and recovered to take bucket load of wickets in 93/94.
Don't you think its rather strange that waqar plays a major role under malik,s captaincy but suddenly becomes a shadow of himself under Akram.
 
saeed-sohail said:
Waqar suffered back injury in 91/92 and recovered to take bucket load of wickets in 93/94.
Don't you think its rather strange that waqar plays a major role under malik,s captaincy but suddenly becomes a shadow of himself under Akram.

If I remember correctly he had surgery on his back around 94 and it was evident from that time that his pace had been dramatically reduced. He did quite well in the West Indies in 93 under Akram's captaincy. I agree though that Wasim didnt bowl him enough later on.
 
I think waqar would have had much much more wickets and a lot better career, had it not been for his mistreatment at the hands of wasim. This makes Wasim very selfish person. On the other hand imran brought the best of talents onto the team and used it to the best. imran left us a decade full of greats while we don't see any body after wasim.

Back to the main question: imran for me was greater bowler. He was always there when pakistan needed him. wasim cud have done so much more if it wasn't for his selfishness
 
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I am not taking the pss here , but in 92 my mamoo was on a flight to London , with the team that was going to tour England that summer. He said Waqar was telling people that Imran Khan didn't like that he was becoming so successful and threatened once to hit him with a cricket bat.
 
Its easy answar, Imran Khan he performed against the best team in his time..

Wasim was well, he hardly performed well against the Australian team, great bowler.. but he did not fullfill his talent.
 
shahzadddd said:
I am not taking the pss here , but in 92 my mamoo was on a flight to London , with the team that was going to tour England that summer. He said Waqar was telling people that Imran Khan didn't like that he was becoming so successful and threatened once to hit him with a cricket bat.
:younis
 
khanz141 said:
I think waqar would have had much much more wickets and a lot better career, had it not been for his mistreatment at the hands of wasim. This makes Wasim very selfish person. On the other hand imran brought the best of talents onto the team and used it to the best. imran left us a decade full of greats while we don't see any body after wasim.

Back to the main question: imran for me was greater bowler. He was always there when pakistan needed him. wasim cud have done so much more if it wasn't for his selfishness


I have to agree with you here sadly.
 
^^ Yeah i am sure your "mamoo" is a great source on this and Waqar would be telling this to random people on his team flight even though whenever talking about Imran, Waqar has only the highest respect.
 
shahzadddd said:
I am not taking the pss here , but in 92 my mamoo was on a flight to London , with the team that was going to tour England that summer. He said Waqar was telling people that Imran Khan didn't like that he was becoming so successful and threatened once to hit him with a cricket bat.

Yeah my mum's cousin's wife's sister-in-law was there too. She heard the very same thing. :21:
 
saeed-sohail said:
Waqar suffered back injury in 91/92 and recovered to take bucket load of wickets in 93/94.
Don't you think its rather strange that waqar plays a major role under malik,s captaincy but suddenly becomes a shadow of himself under Akram.
And the reason he was dropped from county Derbyshire?
 
Noman said:
Its easy answar, Imran Khan he performed against the best team in his time..

Wasim was well, he hardly performed well against the Australian team, great bowler.. but he did not fullfill his talent.

That's a bit unfair. Wasim had good series against the Aussies in 90, 94, and 95, but very ordinary series in 98 and 99.

Imran though, seemed to perform against the West Indies every time they met.
 
I saw both of them play but the memories are very blurred. At his best Akram for me was the more dangerous bowler but Imran was more consistent and managed to adapt his action as he got older and became more intelligent getting those big reverse inswingers. Man his action when he first started was unbelievable.
 
Imran Khan is the best allrounder ever in my opinion.

as captain and allrounder he wins this battle ahead of Wasim.

I would say in bowling about the same but Imran maybe because he performed much better against the best test teams in his era. Imran thought Wasim reverse swing, who was also lucky to have Waqar as his bowling partner.

IMRAN all the way!
 
Nazir_ Rules said:
"To add my two cents, I think in a comparison strictly focused on bowling, Wasim takes it. His bowling was just magic, and he struck fear into every batsmen and even fans of other teams. I didn't see much of Imran at his peak (other than some videos), but I still believe Wasim was the best fast bowler in the history of International cricket, not just Pakistan cricket."

I agree with you on that, in my opinon Wasim Akram was the best fast bowler in the history of pakistan cricket, and then follows the legend Imran Khan.
If any pakistani bowler instilled fear on a batsmen it had to be Waqar with his toe crushing fast yorkers. Batsmen had no answer for that.

As for the thread:
Imran as a player, Imran as a bowler, Imran as a human being.
 
I'm a little confused

Is this about the better all rounder, bowler, cricketer, captain???

I'm assuming its about bowling because Imran wins head down in the batting, all rounder and captaincy departments?

Purely from a spectator's point of view, Wasim Akram for me was just brilliant. Din't enjoy watching any one else bowl more than Wasim
 
[size=+1]Can't we just merge this with the other thread? (Pakistan's best test bowler)[/size]
P.S.: Sorry for being a loud mouth!! :)
 
As a bowler without a doubt Wasim was much more talented, naturally gifted. But Imran was not naturally gifted, he had to work 4 times as hard as Wasim to be the bowler he was not that Wasim did not work hard for his achievements but the fact that Imran being the sole strike bowler of his team for most of his career and still having 52 test wickets less than Akram is nothing short of amazing.

As a captain while Imran made the biggest difference to Pakistan Cricket and the way we played and approached the game, i still feel Wasim was the better captain in the sense especially the way he captained the team from 1995-97, 1999-2000 where the team just played relaxed, aggressive, proactive cricket while Wasim still remained a chill captain.

The mistake Wasim made in his first stint as captain was to copy Imran Khan but he learnt from this and in his remaining stint he did things in a more balanced and practical way.

Imran definitely was the better batter and applied himself more with the bat. I still feel Wasim did not work as hard on his batting, he could have done a lot better with the bat in terms of application, technique development, footwork and Wasim only had one real shot which was over midwicket.
 
Savak said:
As a bowler without a doubt Wasim was much more talented, naturally gifted. But Imran was not naturally gifted, he had to work 4 times as hard as Wasim to be the bowler he was not that Wasim did not work hard for his achievements but the fact that Imran being the sole strike bowler of his team for most of his career and still having 52 test wickets less than Akram is nothing short of amazing.

As a captain while Imran made the biggest difference to Pakistan Cricket and the way we played and approached the game, i still feel Wasim was the better captain in the sense especially the way he captained the team from 1995-97, 1999-2000 where the team just played relaxed, aggressive, proactive cricket while Wasim still remained a chill captain.

The mistake Wasim made in his first stint as captain was to copy Imran Khan but he learnt from this and in his remaining stint he did things in a more balanced and practical way.

Imran definitely was the better batter and applied himself more with the bat. I still feel Wasim did not work as hard on his batting, he could have done a lot better with the bat in terms of application, technique development, footwork and Wasim only had one real shot which was over midwicket.

Are you kidding? Wasim was a good captain but nowhere near Imran. Wasim led Pakistan well in India and England, as did Imran, but was crushed against Australia whereas Imran did much better against the West Indies. And lets not even compare their World Cup campaigns under their respective captaincies.
 
Savak said:
As a bowler without a doubt Wasim was much more talented, naturally gifted. But Imran was not naturally gifted, he had to work 4 times as hard as Wasim to be the bowler he was not that Wasim did not work hard for his achievements but the fact that Imran being the sole strike bowler of his team for most of his career and still having 52 test wickets less than Akram is nothing short of amazing.

As a captain while Imran made the biggest difference to Pakistan Cricket and the way we played and approached the game, i still feel Wasim was the better captain in the sense especially the way he captained the team from 1995-97, 1999-2000 where the team just played relaxed, aggressive, proactive cricket while Wasim still remained a chill captain.

The mistake Wasim made in his first stint as captain was to copy Imran Khan but he learnt from this and in his remaining stint he did things in a more balanced and practical way.

Imran definitely was the better batter and applied himself more with the bat. I still feel Wasim did not work as hard on his batting, he could have done a lot better with the bat in terms of application, technique development, footwork and Wasim only had one real shot which was over midwicket.
:))) :))) you really are the joker on this sight, akraam a better captain than imran r u mad, secondly i've said before imran at his peak was the greatest fast bowler the game ever saw, followed by marshall, akraam with all his skill didnt really perform regularly against the best and he even admitted that he wished australia were weak in his time, all this talk of akram better than imran as a bowler is baseless
 
both were AWESOME...cant we have JOINT best players :)

Imran was pace in yo face...Akram was swing attack..Waqar was toe crushing

fitness, durability, development, hunger - at extreme high levels makes u great
 
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Wasim's figures against England are not very good. Imran consistently mullered us.

Overall, Imran was a marginally better test bowler than Wasim and a significantly better batsman.
 
Savak man I thought you knew fast bowling being a shoaib Akhter fan but with this post you have really disappointed me.
You say Wasim had 52 more wickets but forgot to mention he played 17 fewer tests and there were good ten tests Imran played as a batsman.
Imran did not play against a zimbabwe or a BD and there were times when he did not bother playing against a weaker aus or NZ.
As for your captaincy comment its such a ridiculous statement that even replying to it will be stupidity.
 
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Who did Imran bowl mostly in tandem with? (i.e. who was his partner in crime)

As Waqar was to Wasim, I'm wondering who Imran had...
 
you really are the joker on this sight, akraam a better captain than imran r u mad,

I think this is being misunderstood. Wasim like Imran has a good captaincy record but Wasim didnt have as many problems with the administrators and media. He tried to lead in Imran Khan's style during his first captaincy stint which proved to be a big failure and when he came back for his 2nd and 3rd stint he led in his own natural style instead of blindly wannabe style copying someone else. My comment that Wasim was a better captain than Imran was not really to diss Imran or anything but based on my view that Wasim led the team with the same attributes as Imran with respect to man management skills, tactical skills, team selection skills, leading from the front, aggressive mindset while sticking to his own natural style.

What worked for Imran did not work for Akram, Imran could afford to abuse team mates, maintain dictatorial type authority on the team, have fights with the various stakeholders like the PCB hierarchy, media but Akram could not. The fact that Akram was able to get the best out of the team, lead the team in the same attributes as Imran while maintaining harmony and a good relationship overall with everyone mostly is why i think Akram was the better captain.

But its true, you cant really compare Imran and Akram as captains because they led during different time periods where the team environment was different.

secondly i've said before imran at his peak was the greatest fast bowler the game ever saw, followed by marshall, akraam with all his skill didnt really perform regularly against the best and he even admitted that he wished australia were weak in his time, all this talk of akram better than imran as a bowler is baseless

Bowler's peaks dont last forever. Imran in a single calender year took 88 test wickets which is nothing short of amazing. It is true that naturally and talentwise Wasim was the more gifted bowler. Imran in comparison was a self made bowler, he had no natural talent in the bowling dept and had to work 4-5 times harder than Wasim.
 
saeed-sohail said:
Savak man I thought you knew fast bowling being a shoaib Akhter fan but with this post you have really disappointed me.
You say Wasim had 52 more wickets but forgot to mention he played 17 fewer tests and there were good ten tests Imran played as a batsman.
Imran did not play against a zimbabwe or a BD and there were times when he did not bother playing against a weaker aus or NZ.
As for your captaincy comment its such a ridiculous statement that even replying to it will be stupidity.

People really need to read the post properly before criticizing others. What i said was that Wasim was a more naturally gifted bowler, Imran was not but even then Imran was 52 tests wickets behind Akram even though there is a massive gap in the natural talents of them both. This was a compliment to Imran not a diss.

I have explained my view on the captaincy of the two individuals.
 
Imran Khan was a 5 in one cricketer.

Batsman,Bowler, All-rounder, Captain, Exceptional communicator with media.

Wasim was a bowler. Greatest left arm fast bowler of all time.

Wasim is better then Imran as a bowler.

But Imran is better than Wasim as a batsman or as an All-rounder
or as a Captain or as a communicator.

what's the bottom line?

Bowling Comparison : Wasim wins

Batsman Comparison : Imran wins

All-rounder Comparison : Imran wins

Captain Comparison : Imran wins

Communication with media : Imran wins

Overall comparison : Imran wins by miles. Doesn't he?
 
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saqibsalman said:
Who did Imran bowl mostly in tandem with? (i.e. who was his partner in crime)

As Waqar was to Wasim, I'm wondering who Imran had...
players like Sikandar Bakht, Azeem Hafeez, Qadir (spin). Wasim Akram came in 86??? and probably took a year to be good
 
There is no doubt Waseem Akram was better bowler than Imran Khan, if we take their whole careers in front of us.

It took Imran four to five years to develop, while Waseem was sensational from the very first three day game he played against a foreign team (visitors Kiwis).

Imran himself has said that Waseem was better than him and many of his time.
 
Ilyas said:
There is no doubt Waseem Akram was better bowler than Imran Khan, if we take their whole careers in front of us.

It took Imran four to five years to develop, while Waseem was sensational from the very first three day game he played against a foreign team (visitors Kiwis).

You see, when I read statements like this, I realize that those on the pro-Wasim side of the camp dont bother looking at the facts to back up their arguments, just base it on pre-cooked assumptions.

The fact is, in the first five years of Wasim's career before his breakthrough series against Australia in 1990 when he came of age, he took 90 odd wickets in around 30 matches at an average of 28, hardly 'sensational.'
 
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So from the responses above, would it fair to say that Wasim had a better bowling line-up that complimented him throughout his career (i.e. Imran Khan had more of a responsibility as a bowler in his lineup?)

Also - I think the batsmen that faced the two bowlers would be very good judges as to who was the better bowler.

From most interviews I've read - Wasim gets a lot of mentions as the bowler that troubled them the most.
 
saqibsalman said:
From most interviews I've read - Wasim gets a lot of mentions as the bowler that troubled them the most.

That's because most of those batsmen are from the 90s...they either didn't face Imran or didn't face him at his peak...

Vishy, according to Gavaskar a better batsman then himself...rated the imran incutter from several feet outside off that he left in Karachi only to see his furniture disturbed, one of the two best deliveries he ever faced...
 
^that's why it'd be interesting to get some viewpoints of batsmen who had faced them both (has Sachin faced both?)
 
Anyways, as far as the Wasim-Waqar issue was concerned. Well Wasim it is known had a grudge against Waqar and vice versa, but i dont agree that Wasim deliberately mistreated Waqar under his captaincy. Waqar was at his best pacewise and formwise from 1990-1998 and if you look at Wasim's captaincy in 1993, from 1995-98, he did include Waqar in his team.

Waqar unfortunately lost a lot of pace and his effectiveness with the old ball just went away. It was a struggle for Waqar from January 1999 onwards and Waqar knew by that time that since his pace had declined from 95 mph to 80-87 mph, he had to learn new tricks to prolong his career. Plus Shoaib Akhtar was putting in better performances than Waqar during the period 1999-2000 and Wasim had to decide what was best for the team, given both Shoaib's and Waqar's form, Waqar had to make way for Shoaib.

The emergence of Shoaib was good for Waqar because it made him work harder on making a comeback to the team and becoming a much more accurate and a better new ball bowler. As far as the Hobart test is concerned, yes Waqar did well in the first innings where he got those 2 wickets. Dont forget Wasim gave Waqar the new ball in the 2nd innings but Waqar twisted his ankle in his follow through and his bowling lacked venom thereafter.

Wasim was right to drop Waqar during the tour of India 1999, the Asian Test series, Sharjah cup and since Shoaib was in such scintilating form, Wasim had no choice but to keep him on the bench in the 1999 WC. Actually blame Shoaib for keeping Waqar out, if Shoaib had not emerged Waqar might still have kept his place in the team.
 
Savak said:
Anyways, as far as the Wasim-Waqar issue was concerned. Well Wasim it is known had a grudge against Waqar and vice versa, but i dont agree that Wasim deliberately mistreated Waqar under his captaincy. Waqar was at his best pacewise and formwise from 1990-1998 and if you look at Wasim's captaincy in 1993, from 1995-98, he did include Waqar in his team.

Waqar unfortunately lost a lot of pace and his effectiveness with the old ball just went away. It was a struggle for Waqar from January 1999 onwards and Waqar knew by that time that since his pace had declined from 95 mph to 80-87 mph, he had to learn new tricks to prolong his career. Plus Shoaib Akhtar was putting in better performances than Waqar during the period 1999-2000 and Wasim had to decide what was best for the team, given both Shoaib's and Waqar's form, Waqar had to make way for Shoaib.

The emergence of Shoaib was good for Waqar because it made him work harder on making a comeback to the team and becoming a much more accurate and a better new ball bowler. As far as the Hobart test is concerned, yes Waqar did well in the first innings where he got those 2 wickets. Dont forget Wasim gave Waqar the new ball in the 2nd innings but Waqar twisted his ankle in his follow through and his bowling lacked venom thereafter.

Wasim was right to drop Waqar during the tour of India 1999, the Asian Test series, Sharjah cup and since Shoaib was in such scintilating form, Wasim had no choice but to keep him on the bench in the 1999 WC. Actually blame Shoaib for keeping Waqar out, if Shoaib had not emerged Waqar might still have kept his place in the team.
it was blatently obvious akram was jealous of waqars miracelous acheivements in his earlier part of his career
 
Savak said:
I think this is being misunderstood. Wasim like Imran has a good captaincy record but Wasim didnt have as many problems with the administrators and media. He tried to lead in Imran Khan's style during his first captaincy stint which proved to be a big failure and when he came back for his 2nd and 3rd stint he led in his own natural style instead of blindly wannabe style copying someone else. My comment that Wasim was a better captain than Imran was not really to diss Imran or anything but based on my view that Wasim led the team with the same attributes as Imran with respect to man management skills, tactical skills, team selection skills, leading from the front, aggressive mindset while sticking to his own natural style.

What worked for Imran did not work for Akram, Imran could afford to abuse team mates, maintain dictatorial type authority on the team, have fights with the various stakeholders like the PCB hierarchy, media but Akram could not. The fact that Akram was able to get the best out of the team, lead the team in the same attributes as Imran while maintaining harmony and a good relationship overall with everyone mostly is why i think Akram was the better captain.

But its true, you cant really compare Imran and Akram as captains because they led during different time periods where the team environment was different.



Bowler's peaks dont last forever. Imran in a single calender year took 88 test wickets which is nothing short of amazing. It is true that naturally and talentwise Wasim was the more gifted bowler. Imran in comparison was a self made bowler, he had no natural talent in the bowling dept and had to work 4-5 times harder than Wasim.
the word talent is massively overrated, had akraam worked more harder on his game he might have been better, it was actually imrans sheer talent that enabled him to consistantly perform against the best sides, unlike akraam who hardly stood out in big series
 
my conclusion is wasim cannot be compared to imran in any facets of the game imran really is the stand out cricketer the worlds ever seen, wasim was a fine bowler but imran was better, the bigger the series the better imran performed, and he took center stage and lead from the front as a bowler, and i really truelly believe that wasim hardly did
 
One thing most people tend to forget is that Imran many times wasn't bother to play against weaker oppositions otherwise his record would have been even better.
 
Savak said:
Anyways, as far as the Wasim-Waqar issue was concerned. Well Wasim it is known had a grudge against Waqar and vice versa, but i dont agree that Wasim deliberately mistreated Waqar under his captaincy. Waqar was at his best pacewise and formwise from 1990-1998 and if you look at Wasim's captaincy in 1993, from 1995-98, he did include Waqar in his team.

Waqar unfortunately lost a lot of pace and his effectiveness with the old ball just went away. It was a struggle for Waqar from January 1999 onwards and Waqar knew by that time that since his pace had declined from 95 mph to 80-87 mph, he had to learn new tricks to prolong his career. Plus Shoaib Akhtar was putting in better performances than Waqar during the period 1999-2000 and Wasim had to decide what was best for the team, given both Shoaib's and Waqar's form, Waqar had to make way for Shoaib.

The emergence of Shoaib was good for Waqar because it made him work harder on making a comeback to the team and becoming a much more accurate and a better new ball bowler. As far as the Hobart test is concerned, yes Waqar did well in the first innings where he got those 2 wickets. Dont forget Wasim gave Waqar the new ball in the 2nd innings but Waqar twisted his ankle in his follow through and his bowling lacked venom thereafter.

Wasim was right to drop Waqar during the tour of India 1999, the Asian Test series, Sharjah cup and since Shoaib was in such scintilating form, Wasim had no choice but to keep him on the bench in the 1999 WC. Actually blame Shoaib for keeping Waqar out, if Shoaib had not emerged Waqar might still have kept his place in the team.
In the 1996 home series against NZ Wasim didn't play due to shoulder injury and wants to play C&U ODI series.Waqar played one test in the absence of Wasim and then he didn't play the second test.He could have used that opportunity in the absence of Wasim.

Again in 1998 Series against Australia.Aaamir Sohail was the captain,Wasim's rival,Waqar didn't play that series sighting injury (or perhaps the Austraila ).At the same time he was dropped from county Derbyshire due to lack of form.After the India series 1999 he ended up with an average of 72.In Chennai Test he bowled well,but in Delhi he was way too ordinary.And Wasim dropped him for the calcutta test for Shoaib.

Well it is easy to blame others for the underachievment,the time Wasim really mistreated Waqar was in World cup 1999 and the series after 1999,Aus series.That was obvious.He did it with grudge.
 
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