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What is Bharat's language?

India is an union of states and each has their own language, culture and food. There is no one official language but Hindi is widely spoken across North India. However, Hindi as we speak in daily life, is not a mother tongue of any state. For example, people of UP at home speaks either Awadhi or Maithili, Biharis speaks bhojpuri, MP walas speaks Magadhi etc etc. In Eastern or Southern India, Hindi is not very common and people mostly communicate in their regional language or English.

In India, English is considered a must have to get a good job or become successful. In other words if can't communicate in English, people consider you as illiterate and look down on you. So most affluent families send their kids to English medium schools from kinder garden. As a result English is a widely spoken language in India, especially in South and East India.
 
India has 22 official languages and contrary to popular misconception Hindi is not teh national language. In fact India doesn't have any national language. Also Bharat is not a new term that has been coined by BJP. In our constitution the country is referred to as both India and Bharat. India/Bharat cannot have a single language like how Pakistan imposed Urdu on all its provinces because many of our non-hindi speaking states especially the southern states have their own rich culture and tradition. Laugauages in South have been identified as 1000s of years old. Just like how Bangladesh didn't accept Urdu imposition these states will not accept hindi imposition. I am from South India and even in the south each state differs in teh way we dress, speak, eat and take pride in them.
 
Mockingbird said:
Your intention is very apparent, Capt Rishwatkhor.
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I only asked because one of our hindutva vanguards kept referring to Khalistan as Empty Land, I thought he was referring to a different language, only now realised he was actually mocking the Sikh faith. This is why I wanted to clarify the language of Bharat, pardon my confusion.
 
Well according to Wiki, there is no national language, but there are official languages of India : Indian English and Modern Standard Hindi.

Interestingly, the official languages of British India before independence were English, Standard Urdu and later Modern Standard Hindi.

I have no idea what Indian English is though, but suffice to say, English, the relic of the British Empire, is here to stay in India.

I'd have though the Hindutva government would push for Hindi to be the national language.

en.wikipedia.org

Languages with official recognition in India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
What does Modi speak?

India would love it to be English. I was speaking to an Indian immigrant once, so told him I can understand Hindi but for some reason he was more comfortable speaking in broken, bad English to me.
 
KingKhanWC said:
What does Modi speak?

India would love it to be English. I was speaking to an Indian immigrant once, so told him I can understand Hindi but for some reason he was more comfortable speaking in broken, bad English to me.
Click to expand...

My guess is that he was a south indian who does not speak hindi.

Technics 1210 said:
Well according to Wiki, there is no national language, but there are official languages of India : Indian English and Modern Standard Hindi.

Interestingly, the official languages of British India before independence were English, Standard Urdu and later Modern Standard Hindi.

I have no idea what Indian English is though, but suffice to say, English, the relic of the British Empire, is here to stay in India.

I'd have though the Hindutva government would push for Hindi to be the national language.

en.wikipedia.org

Languages with official recognition in India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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I hear that they do want to make hindi their national language but the non-hindi speaking states in the east and south of india are blocking that move.
 
Language apparently is a very emotive issue in India and coincidentally I was talking about this with some of the local indians in my area. I hear that many of the northern states speak languages that are variants of hindi or are closely related to hindi in terms of script/grammar/words. But the languages in the south and north east have completely different roots and also different script and grammar rules. So they have very less in common with Hindi.

Sometime in the 60s they had the federal government attempting to make hindi a national language but that resulted in language riots in the south. It was subsequently withdrawn. I learned more about it from this wikipedia article, quite an interesting read I gotta say - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Hindi_agitations_of_Tamil_Nadu

But I hear to this day many of the hindi speaking folks do claim that hindi is the national language while the south indians contest that citing their constitution.

saying this in pure jest :D ....

Best way to trigger a north indian, ask - "Why is hindi not the national language of india?"
Best way to trigger a south indian, ask - "Why do you not speak hindi even though it is your national language?"
 
ex-q-zit said:
India has 22 official languages and contrary to popular misconception Hindi is not teh national language. In fact India doesn't have any national language. Also Bharat is not a new term that has been coined by BJP. In our constitution the country is referred to as both India and Bharat. India/Bharat cannot have a single language like how Pakistan imposed Urdu on all its provinces because many of our non-hindi speaking states especially the southern states have their own rich culture and tradition. Laugauages in South have been identified as 1000s of years old. Just like how Bangladesh didn't accept Urdu imposition these states will not accept hindi imposition. I am from South India and even in the south each state differs in teh way we dress, speak, eat and take pride in them.
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pakistan did not impose urdu at province level. They imposed it at federal level
 
IamIndian said:
There is no such language as Malayali! It is Malayalam
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My bad, I apologise for mispronouncing it.

Urdu is based on Hindi I would imagine, it sounds almost identical. Imagine if both Pakistan and Bharat had a national language which was basically the same.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
I only asked because one of our hindutva vanguards kept referring to Khalistan as Empty Land, I thought he was referring to a different language, only now realised he was actually mocking the Sikh faith. This is why I wanted to clarify the language of Bharat, pardon my confusion.
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I am living in a few Britstanis' mind rent free.

This thread I take as a compliment.


:smith
 
Officially they have around 22 different languages.

However their unofficial language is hypocrisy and shrill shouting in accented English.
 
rickroll said:
Language apparently is a very emotive issue in India and coincidentally I was talking about this with some of the local indians in my area. I hear that many of the northern states speak languages that are variants of hindi or are closely related to hindi in terms of script/grammar/words. But the languages in the south and north east have completely different roots and also different script and grammar rules. So they have very less in common with Hindi.

Sometime in the 60s they had the federal government attempting to make hindi a national language but that resulted in language riots in the south. It was subsequently withdrawn. I learned more about it from this wikipedia article, quite an interesting read I gotta say - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Hindi_agitations_of_Tamil_Nadu

But I hear to this day many of the hindi speaking folks do claim that hindi is the national language while the south indians contest that citing their constitution.

saying this in pure jest :D ....

Best way to trigger a north indian, ask - "Why is hindi not the national language of india?"
Best way to trigger a south indian, ask - "Why do you not speak hindi even though it is your national language?"
Click to expand...
On a series note I found it amazing that the PM speaks in a language that large sections of the population have no clue about.

Yet the centre is still quite strong.

Its quite astounding when you think about how you have still managed to create a common identity despite the numerous differences across India.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
On a series note I found it amazing that the PM speaks in a language that large sections of the population have no clue about.

Yet the centre is still quite strong.

Its quite astounding when you think about how you have still managed to create a common identity despite the numerous differences across India.
Click to expand...
I think the Indians have more political representation from the north and parties like bjp can hold onto power with only their hindi voter base due to the lopsided political representation of the north.

Again - any of the Indian PPers here please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
On a series note I found it amazing that the PM speaks in a language that large sections of the population have no clue about.

Yet the centre is still quite strong.

Its quite astounding when you think about how you have still managed to create a common identity despite the numerous differences across India.
Click to expand...
When Modi did his Western tour after becoming PM, the number comment from his fans was - "Wa kiya angrezi bol ta ha!"
 
DeadlyVenom said:
On a series note I found it amazing that the PM speaks in a language that large sections of the population have no clue about.

Yet the centre is still quite strong.

Its quite astounding when you think about how you have still managed to create a common identity despite the numerous differences across India.
Click to expand...

India certainly is a modern day geographical miracle - most states in India could become their own countries given their unique language, culture and large size. In fact I see India as a union of various sub-nationalities.

For example my first language is Telugu and I can define myself as a Telugu person through my distinct language, script, food, clothing style, history, folklore, festivals celebrated which are endemic to my particular region etc., but I'd be hard pressed to define my Indianness. Indianness is this elastic but strong common feeling that sits as a sub-layer.

Practically speaking most states also realize their economic well-being is in to reside in a bigger country called India than to go their own way - being part of India means having access to the entire country's economy, being protected by a bigger military, which is why the occasional calls for separate statehood usually do not catch any wind at all especially in the southern part of India where I originally come from.

Believe it or not but cricket (occasions like the Asian games) and movies serve a huge cultural role in serving as that collective glue to keep the country united. Well publicized endeavors like ISRO's space missions give people that sense of collective achievement.

I believe it is in India's best interest to have that elastic federal structure where multiple identities co-exist simultaneously and are allowed to express their identities freely and fully.

Speaking of Modi - while he has his popularity in the southern part of India - it simply has never been enough to push BJP into the consciousness of the South. BJP barely has any presence except in Karnataka and even there they got roundly beaten in the recent elections.
 
is thr still a problem between languages in india:

https://x.com/Vinayreddy71/status/1...61372487463180?t=UL56lyVZuYd0J2zlWVjzHA26s=19


how come thrs so many tempers, but none of you lot can fight
 
Is malba dumping & municipal waste dumping permitted on public playgrounds? Sector 29 Leisure Valley playgrounds, visited by thousands, are plagued by daily waste dumping, inert waste piles & frequent fires. What action is needed to keep public spaces clean & safe?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1956405733697733006
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hindu religion and culture is the biggest uniting factor in INDIA ..one may agree or disagree but that’s the biggest unifying factor
 
India has 2 major language groups.
1) Sanskrit based
2) Tamil based

Most languages like Hindi, Bengali, Assamese, Oriya, Punjabi, Haryanvi, Gujarati, Marwari, Rajasthani, Bhojpuri have Sanskrit origin.

Languages like Malayalam, Telugu, Kannada,Tula have their roots in Proto Tamil. Each language has some influences of Sanskrit and other Mundari(Austrians Asiatic) languages on them. Telugu shows the most influence of Sanskrit. Kannada and Malayalam also has decent influence of Sanskrit. Tamil is the only language that shows the least influence. Even it has Sanskrit words.

So to answer Caps question, there is no one language that can be called the language of Bharat.
India is united by culture, common festivals and local deities that were incorporated into the Hindu Pantheon by Vedic Brahmins in the last 1500 years. This is why we see so many varieties in Hindu religion and many traditions that foreigners may find bizarre are actually local traditions in some village of India.
What unities the Hindus from all parts of India are 3 important Deities. Shiva, Vishnu and Shakti. The rest of the deities are all incarnations of these 3 main deities.

India does not have a common God, codified rituals, culture, cuisine and language. This is why even after a 1000 years of invaders ruling the land, Sanatana Dharma still survived. Diversity saved the religion.
 
Champ_Pal said:
India has 2 major language groups.
1) Sanskrit based
2) Tamil based

Most languages like Hindi, Bengali, Assamese, Oriya, Punjabi, Haryanvi, Gujarati, Marwari, Rajasthani, Bhojpuri have Sanskrit origin.

Languages like Malayalam, Telugu, Kannada,Tula have their roots in Proto Tamil. Each language has some influences of Sanskrit and other Mundari(Austrians Asiatic) languages on them. Telugu shows the most influence of Sanskrit. Kannada and Malayalam also has decent influence of Sanskrit. Tamil is the only language that shows the least influence. Even it has Sanskrit words.

So to answer Caps question, there is no one language that can be called the language of Bharat.
India is united by culture, common festivals and local deities that were incorporated into the Hindu Pantheon by Vedic Brahmins in the last 1500 years. This is why we see so many varieties in Hindu religion and many traditions that foreigners may find bizarre are actually local traditions in some village of India.
What unities the Hindus from all parts of India are 3 important Deities. Shiva, Vishnu and Shakti. The rest of the deities are all incarnations of these 3 main deities.

India does not have a common God, codified rituals, culture, cuisine and language. This is why even after a 1000 years of invaders ruling the land, Sanatana Dharma still survived. Diversity saved the religion.
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Thank you for the reply, the first part which addressed the language differences was quite informative.

The latter part which addressed culture and relgion less so. You can dismiss the bizarre traditions as local quirks, but the poop throwing festival actually must have divine roots. If the cow is a holy animal, of course it's excrement will also by association be holy. I feel this is the dilemma of so-called atheist Hindus. They want to cling to their heritage but can't claim it in the manner only a true Bharati can.
 
It's time for India to adopt Eng as the national language and stop wasting time on these regular language debates politicians engage in.
 
RexRex said:
It's time for India to adopt Eng as the national language and stop wasting time on these regular language debates politicians engage in.
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I would rather say it's time for India to give up on the concept of a national language. Maybe 10% of India's population can speak English. Ridiculous to consider it a possibility for a national language.

I can accept the early thinkers were nervous about India surviving as a country and thought it needed a national language (among other national things) to bind it together as a country. After close to a century as a country, we need to stop worrying about survival and move towards allowing folks to do what they want with personal stuff like language.
 
Red-Indian said:
I would rather say it's time for India to give up on the concept of a national language. Maybe 10% of India's population can speak English. Ridiculous to consider it a possibility for a national language.
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I don't agree. The least you would want in a diverse democracy is one part of the country being able to communicate with the other. There has to be some link language taught in schools for reasons of national cohesion and also govt purposes. It is either Hindi or English, which one would you choose ?
 
RexRex said:
I don't agree. The least you would in a diverse democracy is one part of the country being able to communicate with the other. There has to be some link language taught in schools for reasons of national cohesion and also govt purposes. It is either Hindi or English, which one would you choose ?
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People will find a way to communicate with each other without the government forcing it down their throat. For close to 70 years, Europe kept moving closer together ending up in a common parliament, central bank and currency without there being a hint of a common language.

National identity is difficult to define but there are enough soft cohesion factors and a sense of One country now to keep India together now without needing a language. If people want to see the wider world and move to different places in India, they'll learn the language themselves.
 
Red-Indian said:
National identity is difficult to define but there are enough soft cohesion factors and a sense of One country now to keep India together now without needing a language.
Click to expand...

What are these soft cohesion factors ? Cricket is the only real powerful one.
 
RexRex said:
What are these soft cohesion factors ? Cricket is the only real powerful one.
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Cricket, the mythology of the freedom struggle, interstate migration, hindu religion, the bureaucracy, judiciary etc. are all part of the framework holding the country together now.

For example, one reason why Khalistan is only interesting to Canadian Punjabis is that there's probably more Punjabis outside Punjab spread across India and abroad than in it at this point.
 
Red-Indian said:
Cricket, the mythology of the freedom struggle, interstate migration, hindu religion, the bureaucracy, judiciary etc. are all part of the framework holding the country together now.

For example, one reason why Khalistan is only interesting to Canadian Punjabis is that there's probably more Punjabis outside Punjab spread across India and abroad than in it at this point.
Click to expand...

Nobody cares about the freedom struggle anymore. It's been 80 years. Interstate migration almost always involves using the language Eng or Hindi with the locals so that's a bad example. Talking about the judiciary and bureacracy gives you a superficial connection with your fellow Indians.

These are all very tenuous links apart from cricket and maybe hinduism, given that 80% of indians are hindus. Nothing comes close to an official language as a binding force which is why every country on planet Earth has one.
 
RexRex said:
Nobody cares about the freedom struggle anymore. It's been 80 years. Interstate migration almost alway involves using the language Eng or Hindu with the locals so that's a bad example. Talking about the judiciary and bureacracy gives you a superficial connection with your fellow Indians.

These are all very tenuous links apart from cricket and maybe hinduism, given that 80% of indians are hindus. Nothing comes close to an official language as a binding force which is why every country on planet Earth has one.
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Do you think the Tamilians, Malayalis, Telugus, Kannadigas and even Maharashtrians nowadays are more or less likely to want to secede from India if you force Hindi down their throats?

Irrespective of whether you and other armchair theorists think a national language is needed as a binding force to hold the country together and therefore folks should be forced to learn it, most South Indians are not interested and are not willing to leave the country either. They don't accept the binary choice.

Interstate migration will happen for economic reasons whether you force the language or not. There are hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshis on construction sites across South India. You think they all learn Tamil/Kannada/Telugu before reaching here? People find a way. Trust them. This 'we know better that you what's good for you' attitude is the reason why most government interference fails.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
The latter part which addressed culture and relgion less so. You can dismiss the bizarre traditions as local quirks, but the poop throwing festival actually must have divine roots. If the cow is a holy animal, of course it's excrement will also by association be holy. I feel this is the dilemma of so-called atheist Hindus. They want to cling to their heritage but can't claim it in the manner only a true Bharati can.
Click to expand...
I understand this post is supposed to be a satirical one but I will give a serious reply.

In Hindu religion, Cows are considered as ‘Vahana’ / Vehicle for Maa Durga. So, Cows are considered to be sacred for Hindus. In Hindu culture, Cow / Buffalo milk is the primary source of Milk unlike Arabs where Goat milk is considered as a source. And during olden days, Milk is one of primary source of nutrition and Cows are revered as a form of our own ‘Mother’ (not in a true sense) because of the value they bring to our life. Hence, killing Cows / Buffalo’s is considered as a sin if you go by either religion or culture.

Coming to Cow dung topic, I don't know about the Cow dung festival and its origination but coming from South India, I have never heard of it. It must be native to a small region similar to tomato festival in Spain. In Hindu Culture, dried Cow dung is one of the source for furnaces as wood / coal produces so much soot. And due to its anti-bacterial properties (scientifically proven now), Cow dung is mixed in water and used to clean mud roads in front of home. One has to understand that these remedies are centuries back when resources were limited and I find it nothing wrong and shameful.

Why Hindus are hurt? As Cows are considered as holy in our religion, obviously, religious sentiments will be hurt. We have seen that only caricatures of Islam has led to a French teachers death. So, its not something uncommon I feel.
 
AamchiMumbaikar said:
65% of the country speaks/ understands hindi, thats the unofficial language. You can't impose a common language in india officially.
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Probably said this a million times on PP but I've found this deeply fascinating.

In Pakistan there are probably some tribals or village people that can only speak the regional languages and cannot communicate with each other.

But India has some economicaly significant and educated people who dont speak what everyone perceives as the "Indian" language. I wonder what it means for identity and nationality. As an example, I have seen overseas where we Pakistanis are communicated with Indians in Urdu/Hindi or Punjabi, and some South Indians completely left out of the picture watching on.

I would be interested in reading their perspective. As despite this very obvious divide India has managed to be a united country and everyone seems to buy in to the idea of India.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
It's my main question too.

India works, somehow it does.

But theres no real explanation for it. It just does.
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I think after a point (maybe 50 years?), countries & empires acquire their own inertia. Once a couple of generations are born into it, it's a self-sustaining model. For most Indians alive today, this is the only reality they've ever known. It takes a feat of imagination to conceive a different model.

At that point, I would say it's better to loosen the reins and let states/provinces have their freedom of choice on various issues than worry about national cohesion and uniformity.

The US is an excellent example. Through most of the early existence they had to fight secessionist movements and even had to fight a civil war. That was the time to force uniformity and drive federal authority. After that they have wisely allowed the states a lot of freedom on issues like education, health, infrastructure etc. etc. There's very little they enforce at the federal level.

I believe it's time for India to increasingly move towards that model as well. It's absurd to enforce things like language, education etc. in the name of national cohesion. The more devolution, the better.
 
Theanonymousone said:
I understand this post is supposed to be a satirical one but I will give a serious reply.

In Hindu religion, Cows are considered as ‘Vahana’ / Vehicle for Maa Durga. So, Cows are considered to be sacred for Hindus. In Hindu culture, Cow / Buffalo milk is the primary source of Milk unlike Arabs where Goat milk is considered as a source. And during olden days, Milk is one of primary source of nutrition and Cows are revered as a form of our own ‘Mother’ (not in a true sense) because of the value they bring to our life. Hence, killing Cows / Buffalo’s is considered as a sin if you go by either religion or culture.

Coming to Cow dung topic, I don't know about the Cow dung festival and its origination but coming from South India, I have never heard of it. It must be native to a small region similar to tomato festival in Spain. In Hindu Culture, dried Cow dung is one of the source for furnaces as wood / coal produces so much soot. And due to its anti-bacterial properties (scientifically proven now), Cow dung is mixed in water and used to clean mud roads in front of home. One has to understand that these remedies are centuries back when resources were limited and I find it nothing wrong and shameful.

Why Hindus are hurt? As Cows are considered as holy in our religion, obviously, religious sentiments will be hurt. We have seen that only caricatures of Islam has led to a French teachers death. So, its not something uncommon I feel.
Click to expand...

Even in Pakistani villages I have seen the poor people plastering cow dung on the walls of their homes. I don't know if they were Hindus, but probably just following the norms of their ancestors. And who knows? Maybe this serves some maintenance purpose for the homes.

I don't see anything shameful in it, if a cow is regarded holy then it is only natural that it will reflect in the culture.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
It's my main question too.

India works, somehow it does.

But theres no real explanation for it. It just does.
Click to expand...

India is unlikely to work in the long run. :inti

Once population increases further, economy declines, China grabs more territories, I expect India to experience fracture.

India worked thus far because previous generations of Indians were hardworking and humble. They made it work. Modern day Indians are more destructive and they are likely to accelerate India's decline.
 
sweep_shot said:
India is unlikely to work in the long run. :inti

Once population increases further, economy declines, China grabs more territories, I expect India to experience fracture.

India worked thus far because previous generations of Indians were hardworking and humble. They made it work. Modern day Indians are more destructive and they are likely to accelerate India's decline.
Click to expand...
Worked longer than Pakistan and will work long after Beggardesh :ds
 
Red-Indian said:
At that point, I would say it's better to loosen the reins and let states/provinces have their freedom of choice on various issues than worry about national cohesion and uniformity.

The US is an excellent example. Through most of the early existence they had to fight secessionist movements and even had to fight a civil war. That was the time to force uniformity and drive federal authority. After that they have wisely allowed the states a lot of freedom on issues like education, health, infrastructure etc. etc. There's very little they enforce at the federal level.
Click to expand...

Did you compare a muti-lingual patchwork of states, like India, to the USA, which has been a white christian english-speaking country for more than 200 years ? :facepalm:
 
RexRex said:
Did you compare a muti-lingual patchwork of states, like India, to the USA, which has been a white christian english-speaking country for more than 200 years ? :facepalm:
Click to expand...

^ To be clear, I don't think the USA suffers from cohesion issues as much, given these three parameters I mentioned above, so looking at them as a model to replicate isn't really that simple.
 
Red-Indian said:
Do you think the Tamilians, Malayalis, Telugus, Kannadigas and even Maharashtrians nowadays are more or less likely to want to secede from India if you force Hindi down their throats?
Click to expand...

'Forcing down their throats'. You make it sound so gruesome lol.

I'm curious .. do you think indian citizens should be allowed to advocate for secession ?
 
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