When was the last time when the best off spinner in the world was non-Asian?

[Slog]

Was having a debate with one of my friends and we couldn’t

In the past 3-4 decades its been liked of Prasanna, Harbhajan (for a bit maybe), Muralitharan ofciurse, Ajmal and then Ashwin.

But now it’s Lyon

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Harbajhan was never Number 1, maybe in Sreesanth’s dreams.

I think this is the first time so good on Lyon. How about Swann? He was doing very well but he was competing with home track bullies like Jadeja & Ashwin

 

[Slog]

Harbajhan was never Number 1, maybe in Sreesanth’s dreams.

I think this is the first time so good on Lyon. How about Swann? He was doing very well but he was competing with home track bullies like Jadeja & Ashwin

Ajmal was best in the world when Swann was st his peak. But yea I forgot about him for some reason

 

[barah_admi]

It has never happened in my life time till now.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Swann and Lyon.

 

[Ab Fan]

Swann, an all-condition bowler.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Graeme Swann was a better bowler than Nathan Lyon and easily the best spinner in the world between 2008 and 2012.

 

[Varun]

Graeme Swann circa 2010 - 2013.

His only competition at the time was Ajmal, who was later revealed to be chucking to gain an advantage.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Not that long ago lol. There was Graeme Swann who was a terrific spinner at his peak.

 

[Reverse Sweep]

Also Sunil Narine was the best white ball offspinner for a couple of years

 

[Saurav]

Ajmal was best in the world when Swann was st his peak. But yea I forgot about him for some reason

In what way?Swann had much better record overseas ,specially in Aus and SA

 

[Ab Fan]

Swann is the best spin bowler since Murali and Warne.

 

[Robert]

Graeme Swann.

 

[Robert]

Before Swann, perhaps Lance Gibbs.

 

[gazza619]

Yep as a lot of posters have highlighted, Swanny was in a high league. Not sure what cirmcumstances led him to bottle it on the Australian tour. He still had a good few years left in him.

 

[as-95]

Swann was never the best spinner in the world as he confided without Saeed Ajmal(an ATG in ODI’s) and an extraordinary test bowler. People claiming he chucked should remove Murali from the list too. Ajmal was already cleared once but was unfairly banned the second time.

 

[CricFan2012]

It's refreshing to see great off spin bowling which is actually legit.

Ajmal and Murali do not deserve their records because they were chucking and the latter clearly had an unnatural advantage.

 

[CricFan2012]

Swann was never the best spinner in the world as he confided without Saeed Ajmal(an ATG in ODI’s) and an extraordinary test bowler. People claiming he chucked should remove Murali from the list too. Ajmal was already cleared once but was unfairly banned the second time.

He was never unfairly banned.

The cheater was chucking his doosras which were blatant to the naked eye, it was also ICC's fault for not taking action because they lacked spine and were probably fearing the fallout from emotional asian fans.

Murali is also a cheater in my book. You cannot argue that he was bowling fairly when he had an unnatural advantage.

What separates Murali from someone like Lyon is that ANYONE can bowl like Lyon but the experience, skill, and knowledge is a variable, but you will scarcely find anyone who bowls like Murali unless they have similar elbows.

How can sports be fair when player A has un unfair advantage over player B and player B can do nothing about it. Cricket should be based on skill not these sorts of advantages.

 

[Junaids]

Graeme Swann was the best offie since Jim Laker.

The irony is that never in history has Asia produced the greatest off-spinner of all time.

It’s been Jim Laker for over 60 years, and the closest anyone has come was Graeme Swann!

 

[gazza619]

Graeme Swann was the best offie since Jim Laker.

The irony is that never in history has Asia produced the greatest off-spinner of all time.

It’s been Jim Laker for over 60 years, and the closest anyone has come was Graeme Swann!

I thought Saqlain was quite lethal until his knee gave up?

 

[Junaids]

Of course Jim Laker played in an era of ATG batsmen: Walcott, Weekes, Worrell, May and Harvey.

And in his 19 for 90 at Old Trafford, Australia had a very strong lower middle order: Keith Miller at 6, Richie Benaud at 8 and Ray Lindwall at 9.

Even after all these years, Laker’s average remains 6.8% superior to Muralitharan, 32.1% superior to Saeed Ajmal and 40.2% superior to Saqlain Mushtaq!

 

[Junaids]

I thought Saqlain was quite lethal until his knee gave up?

No.

Saqlain was a mediocre Test bowler who did well by exploiting the rough created by Wasim Akram.

When Wasim’s body gave up, Saqlain became the mediocrity he really always had been.

I had worked this out at the Gabba in 1995: with no rough, Saqlain was just nothing in the First Innings.

As soon as Pakistan replaced him with Mushtaq Ahmed in the next Test, they started to have a decent spinner.

Saqlain was the first ODI spinner with variation.

But in Tests, nothing special I’m afraid.

 

[Junaids]

Even after all these years, Laker’s average remains 6.8% superior to Muralitharan, 32.1% superior to Saeed Ajmal and 40.2% superior to Saqlain Mushtaq!

.....and only Saeed Ajmal has the benefit of DRS LBW decisions!

 

[hk031992]

No.

Saqlain was a mediocre Test bowler who did well by exploiting the rough created by Wasim Akram.

When Wasim’s body gave up, Saqlain became the mediocrity he really always had been.

I had worked this out at the Gabba in 1995: with no rough, Saqlain was just nothing in the First Innings.

As soon as Pakistan replaced him with Mushtaq Ahmed in the next Test, they started to have a decent spinner.

Saqlain was the first ODI spinner with variation.

But in Tests, nothing special I’m afraid.

HE TOOK a 10 wicket haul in India, Saqi was a very good test spinner

 

[gazza619]

No.

Saqlain was a mediocre Test bowler who did well by exploiting the rough created by Wasim Akram.

When Wasim’s body gave up, Saqlain became the mediocrity he really always had been.

I had worked this out at the Gabba in 1995: with no rough, Saqlain was just nothing in the First Innings.

As soon as Pakistan replaced him with Mushtaq Ahmed in the next Test, they started to have a decent spinner.

Saqlain was the first ODI spinner with variation.

But in Tests, nothing special I’m afraid.

Perhaps one of the greatest ODI spinners of all time with an average of under 22 striking economically at almost 2 wickets per game. No?

I always felt that he bowled too much in county. He used to sprint like a medium pacer that took its toll. A spin bowler needs runs behind him and that the Pakistani batsmen rarely gave him in oveseas tests. I wonder how much Warne or Swann would have averaged if they were playing for the Pakistani fragile batting line up.

I know I would be lining up Saqi as the first bowler in my all time ODI team.

 

[Junaids]

HE TOOK a 10 wicket haul in India, Saqi was a very good test spinner

Yes, Saqlain bowled well on wearing tracks and when he had the benefit of Wasim Akram’s footmarks to pitch into.

But his repeated selection OUTSIDE Asia instead of Mushtaq Ahmed was one of the massive selection errors of the period 1995-2005.

 

[Tusker]

Graeme Swann was the best offie since Jim Laker.

The irony is that never in history has Asia produced the greatest off-spinner of all time.

It’s been Jim Laker for over 60 years, and the closest anyone has come was Graeme Swann!

Something tells me you will run away soon from this thread if I start responding ... lol

 

[ElRaja]

No.

Saqlain was a mediocre Test bowler who did well by exploiting the rough created by Wasim Akram.

When Wasim’s body gave up, Saqlain became the mediocrity he really always had been.

I had worked this out at the Gabba in 1995: with no rough, Saqlain was just nothing in the First Innings.

As soon as Pakistan replaced him with Mushtaq Ahmed in the next Test, they started to have a decent spinner.

Saqlain was the first ODI spinner with variation.

But in Tests, nothing special I’m afraid.

disagree with your analysis, im not arguing he was better than laker, i never got to see laker play, and statistically laker was better so fair enough.

however to say saqi was nothing special in tests is wrong, he was 26, with 200 test wickets at 27 odd when his knees gave way (laker made his debut at 26). he took 25 wickets in 3 tests against arguably the best players of spin in india on his first tour and he barely toured any country twice to build on his experiences.

as for his reliance on wasim it had more to do with wasim being one of the few attacking captains who trusted saqi to get wickets, a lot of captains used him less aggressively than wasim. also its quite something to have passed judgement on a spinner in his 4th test.

 

[gazza619]

Yes, Saqlain bowled well on wearing tracks and when he had the benefit of Wasim Akram’s footmarks to pitch into.

But his repeated selection OUTSIDE Asia instead of Mushtaq Ahmed was one of the massive selection errors of the period 1995-2005.

I think if I remember correctly Mushy also had problems with his shoulder due to which he lost the zip in his googlies and flippers. I can just recall Mushy being slogged for sixes by tail enders towards the later end of his career.

 

[Buffet]

Not too long ago, it was Graeme Swann. If Ashwin wins this series for India then I am pretty sure that PPers will jump on his bandwagon.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Graeme Swann was the best offie since Jim Laker.

The irony is that never in history has Asia produced the greatest off-spinner of all time.

It’s been Jim Laker for over 60 years, and the closest anyone has come was Graeme Swann!

Ian Chappell, Bill Lawry and Ashley Mallett are on record calling Prasanna the greatest offie of all time. I don't necessarily agree but since you are keen on peer reviews I thought I would let you know. Judging Indian spin quartet (and Gupte before them) based on stats alone will be unfair because we had guys like Pataudi, Solkar, Abid Ali and Gavaskar opening the bowling to take the shine off the ball, moreover we were extremely poor catchers bar the GOAT at close in, Solkar. I know you rate Engineer very highly but based on what I have read/heard he was an awful keeper and most certainly cost us the 1969 series against the visiting Aussies. Should never have been a regular fixture ahead of Budhi Kunderan but Pataudi had his own biases.

Venkat was not in that league but the other 3 were special. Can't imagine another all spin attack plying their trade all across the globe like them, each brought something different to the table. Viv called Chandra more scary than Thommo LOL. And Bedi IMO is the GOAT SLA ahead of Underwood/Herath for reasons that go beyond stats.

 

[Junaids]

Ian Chappell, Bill Lawry and Ashley Mallett are on record calling Prasanna the greatest offie of all time. I don't necessarily agree but since you are keen on peer reviews I thought I would let you know. Judging Indian spin quartet (and Gupte before them) based on stats alone will be unfair because we had guys like Pataudi, Solkar, Abid Ali and Gavaskar opening the bowling to take the shine off the ball, moreover we were extremely poor catchers bar the GOAT at close in, Solkar. I know you rate Engineer very highly but based on what I have read/heard he was an awful keeper and most certainly cost us the 1969 series against the visiting Aussies. Should never have been a regular fixture ahead of Budhi Kunderan but Pataudi had his own biases.

Venkat was not in that league but the other 3 were special. Can't imagine another all spin attack plying their trade all across the globe like them, each brought something different to the table. Viv called Chandra more scary than Thommo LOL. And Bedi IMO is the GOAT SLA ahead of Underwood/Herath for reasons that go beyond stats.

Yeah, my Dad says Prasanna was that good too, and I thought of him when writing about Laker, tbh.

I agree with you about Bedi too, I LOVED watching him bowl.

 

[Gullycricket]

Stuart McGill was also good

 

[Robert]

Yep as a lot of posters have highlighted, Swanny was in a high league. Not sure what cirmcumstances led him to bottle it on the Australian tour. He still had a good few years left in him.

His elbow had failed. He accepts that he should not have gone on that tour and should have retired at the end of the English Ashes but Flower talked him into touring.

 

[Slog]

His elbow had failed. He accepts that he should not have gone on that tour and should have retired at the end of the English Ashes but Flower talked him into touring.

He conveniently ended with an average of 29.9x

 

[JibranAnsari]

Stuart McGill was also good

He was a leg spinner

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Jim laker's stats are amazing.
Why is it that 99 % of atgs from england are from an era in which there was very less video evidence. Since 1970s they have produced a single atg even srilanka left them far behind in this aspect.

 

[Hasan123]

Swann was the best off spinner in the world during his international career.