Why did India develop and acquire the Atomic bomb?

[DeadlyVenom]

There is a video on youtube I will try and find where Musharaf is being interviewd by an Indian interviewer. I've not kept up with this thread and it may already have been posted. Really exposes the Indian pretence of China being the bigger threat to them.

They are scared stiff of Pakistan.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

What is your obsession with Shiv Sena?

It's a fringe party which is not even in power in ONE state from TWENTY EIGHT states and seven Union Territories in India.

There must be dozens on parties which are far more relevant to Indian politics than Shiv Sena which is already divided due to family disputes.

And which minority rule are you talking about? Mughals and Sultans of Delhi were our own, by all means. A government is much more than mere religion in a state with multi-variate cultures like India. What those rulers were judged on were their administrative and military power and ability to bring stability and security to the populace.

You seem obsessed with the fact that there were Muslim kings in India for years. Majority of Indians neither find that odd nor care about it, at all.

In fact, if you would want the general view-point, the British rule is what is hated throughout India. The mughals were our own people.

We have a Sikh prime minister and the chairperson of our ruling party is Christian. Our President is Hindu and Vice-President is Muslim. Guess what, it neither bothers us nor does it matter all that much to us.

As for the nuclear power, well, you don't need a clear threat hanging on your head to acquire weapons. When weapons as powerful as nuclear weapons exist, it is natural for a country with "ambitions to be a superpower"(in your terms) to want to acquire it.

We have no antagonism towards any Arab countries and our relationship with most Arab countries (and Muslim countries except for those in our immediate neighborhood) is amicable. Strategic threat from China is definitely something that drives our country to bolster its defense and there is a threat from Pakistan too. But, there is no threat from the "muslim world" in general as India itself is part of the muslim world as it has one of the highest muslim populations in the world.

Hmm, yeah, you see, you still haven't explained to me how India's government addresses Hindu Fundamentalist groups; groups which falsify the notion of a secular India (Shiv Sena as ONE example). You're just glossing over substance here.

By the way, I am not obsessed with Shiv Sena, I was parodying your comment on how the party doesn’t have a leader who is charismatic enough to carry on the baton. [Post #431]

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

You are over-simplifying this Namak Halal.

Nuclear power and defense up-gradation is not something that is done or acquired based on a singular threat agenda. Of course, Pakistan is a greater military threat when compared to China, for India. There is no denial of that.

But, to say that "Muslim" threat forced "Hindus" to acquire nuclear power is way off the mark. India has had cordial relationship with ALL Muslim countries apart from our immediate neighbours with whom we have border disputes and issues regarding insurgency. The Arab League always maintains a neutral stance on issues like Kashmir and India has been an active part, in the past, of NAM and has voted against Israel in UN resolutions as well.

Secondly, just because one doesn't have missiles to hurt China doesn't mean that the country stops working on the nuclear plan as well. Missiles can be built and upgraded, you can't start with the best in the business. You have to start somewhere and keep upgrading the ranges which is a natural process.

It makes logical sense to have nuclear power to defend oneself against the country which is more powerful in a military sense than a country that can be fought against using conventional means as well. So, obviously, China was always someone we glanced sideways at whilst taking our decisions.

Just to make things clear - PAKISTAN IS NOT EQUAL TO ISLAM - from Indian perspective. We ourselves have one of the highest Muslim population in the world and have cordial relationship with most of the Arab world. Unlike Pakistan, India has never aligned with or provided military assistance to the United States in any of their wars in the middle east and Afghanistan. Only assignments where Indian troops have been involved in Muslim countries are UN peacekeeping missions apart from the wars with Pakistan.

As hard is it for you to accept it, there is no need for India to guard itself against a particular religion more 200 million of the whose followers are Indians. We do guard ourselves against countries we have disputes with, i.e, Pakistan and to some extent China.

 

[jheenga]

There is a video on youtube I will try and find where Musharaf is being interviewd by an Indian interviewer. I've not kept up with this thread and it may already have been posted. Really exposes the Indian pretence of China being the bigger threat to them.

They are scared stiff of Pakistan.

lol ...told you on page 1 of this thread, we dont consider pak anything more than nuisance & china represents a grave threat - you may continue to live in your delusions of being powerful & threatening to us but sadly it aint true - have fun with da i-bomb

 

[DeadlyVenom]

lol ...told you on page 1 of this thread, we dont consider pak anything more than nuisance & china represents a grave threat - you may continue to live in your delusions of being powerful & threatening to us but sadly it aint true - have fun with da i-bomb

Your army and government thinks differently. Sorry Bro.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eChudeOpEHs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Fallen King]

^ KingKhan and Namak Halaal

Subhan'Allaah!

My history of Pakistan is little bit weak or perhaps, a lot. That's probably my attention has switched to Canadian history after settling there.

I have learned a lot from you both, and what a amazing journey this thread has been, and i find it not surprising how many have managed to use technical excuses to divert from the original point of this thread just like their similar encounter to debate on Kashmir situation. That's shame, as i was hoping more of friendly and healthy discussion and relationship to build together to seek the truth as ONE, and to clear any misunderstanding whatsoever. Too bad, hatred is very strong word, and has strong effect on the building relationship or repairing the damaged relationship which will forever remain the damaged relationship because of hatred which is strongly alive and kicking. The perfect example of Gujarat, Mumbai or Indian Muslim people treatment in India, Kashmir ( comparable of Indian occupied, and Pakistan occupied along with Azad Kashmir).

May Allaah (SWT) bless you all (Namak Halaal and KingKhan), and keep it up. Very well informed this thread has been so far, and this thread is indeed very good educational purpose for anyone who has weak history of Muslim dominant, Pakistan, India-Isreal-USA,..etc. You both have our prayers, and keep it up, my brothers.

 

[jheenga]

Your army and government thinks differently. Sorry Bro.

& this forum via its pakistani posters is offical mouthpiece of our army & govt.... lolz


...this is 1 funny thread & i luv it







-dont go anywhere,i am gonna see if i can find the ingredients for a african bomb

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Hmm, yeah, you see, you still haven't explained to me how India's government addresses Hindu Fundamentalist groups; groups which falsify the notion of a secular India (Shiv Sena as ONE example). You're just glossing over substance here.

You're over-playing the Hindu fundamentalist card.

Hindu fundamentalism is of very fringe nature in India. The government will not be found to have taken any drastic measures because the reach and popularity of the fundamentalists are very limited.

The Ayodhya issue and the Gujarat riots was the worst period for secularism in India as the fundamentalists were almost successful in being the part of the main-stream. However, in the last six to seven years, their influence has declined drastically and they are not all that relevant anymore.

As for the government's steps, any kind of fundamentalism which is locally organized is dealt with strictly by all the state governments and the perpetrators are regularly caught and punished. The investigation of the Gujarat riots were severely hindered by the fact that the government of Gujarat, itself, was culpable of many mistakes of omission and in some cases, crimes of commission. Which meant that the early investigations were heavily biased and it is only in recent years that the investigations have shifted to the hands of central authorities and is being monitored by the Supreme Court. This can be counted as a failure on the part of the Indian government.

The biggest success, however, came in the Malegaon and Samjhauta Express blast cases. The presence of Hindu fundamentalists who could actually conduct bomb blasts in the country was not yet established and the investigating authorities have nailed several people in the related cases, now.

As for how government is addressing these groups, these are the political rivals of INC and, hence, the government is always on the heels of these organizations and try to vilify them. The popularity and reach of all these organizations have gone down drastically in recent years and even parties who are close to them are trying to distance themselves from these groups.

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Your army and government thinks differently. Sorry Bro.

I think differently too.

Pakistan is obviously a bigger security threat for India than China.

But, it has nothing to do with Pakistan being an Islamic country. It has more to do with the fact that there are clear tension between the two countries and there have been wars in the past as well.

Religion doesn't come into picture here, at least, from the Indian side.

 

[Sachin85]

If Islam is the main threat for India then why do we have good relations with Bangladesh, Afghanistan etc etc?

Bangladesh is not a threat? Why not?

People are confusing Pakistan with Islam. Would an Islamic country or people murder and rape hundreds of thousands of other Muslims?

People need to look up Pakistani history before talking. Where in the Quran does it allow you to kill other innocent Muslims? Now you cry about Kashmiri brother and sisters, why weren't Pakistanis crying for Bangladeshi brothers and sisters?


Is Pakistan a threat? Yes
Is Pakistan our biggest threat? No,
Is Islam our biggest threat? Laughable
Does Pakistan represent Islam? Ask the Muslims who were affected in 1971

Still no response for the top secret BJP mission in UP to eradicate Muslims!

 

[Namak_Halaal]

You are over-simplifying this Namak Halal.

I personally believe through simplification one can gain a better understanding.

Nuclear power and defense up-gradation is not something that is done or acquired based on a singular threat agenda.

But Nuclear power can be acquired on the basis of intimidation.

Of course, Pakistan is a greater military threat when compared to China, for India. There is no denial of that.

Indian PPers seem to be denying the notion. Are you also saying India did not develop the bomb as a deterrent against China?

Just to make things clear - PAKISTAN IS NOT EQUAL TO ISLAM - from Indian perspective.

Just to makes things clear, PAKISTAN IS NOT EQUAL TO ISLAM - from a Pakistani perspective either. The point is, that Pakistan is the one Muslim nation with the atomic bomb and just so happens to be India's neighbour. This changes everything!

Secondly, just because one doesn't have missiles to hurt China doesn't mean that the country stops working on the nuclear plan as well. Missiles can be built and upgraded, you can't start with the best in the business. You have to start somewhere and keep upgrading the ranges which is a natural process.

Not at all, and I agree with you. However my point was, how can India claim their motive behind the atomic bomb was China? Firstly China had mid-range ICBM long before India, therefore China could easily have launched an attacked on India; how was India going to defend itself? Secondly, how can India’s atomic bomb act as deterrent given China were fully aware that Indian missiles were not capable of entering Chinese airspace? In the meantime Pakistan and India engages in 4 wars.

All I am saying is that given the facts above, it’s ridiculous to suggest India’s motive behind the atomic bomb was China.

As hard is it for you to accept it, there is no need for India to guard itself against a particular religion more 200 million of the whose followers are Indians. We do guard ourselves against countries we have disputes with, i.e, Pakistan and to some extent China.

Don’t you get it? The Hindu majority in India today do not have to guard themselves against a Muslim minority in their homeland.

 

[jheenga]

I personally believe through simplification one can gain a better understanding.




But Nuclear power can be acquired on the basis of intimidation.




Indian PPers seem to be denying the notion. Are you also saying India did not develop the bomb as a deterrent against China?




Just to makes things clear, PAKISTAN IS NOT EQUAL TO ISLAM - from a Pakistani perspective either. The point is, that Pakistan is the one Muslim nation with the atomic bomb and just so happens to be India's neighbour. This changes everything!

SO THAT MAKES YOUR BOMB A ISLAMIC ONE & OUR ANTI-ISLAM - U R HILLARIOUS

Not at all, and I agree with you. However my point was, how can India claim their motive behind the atomic bomb was China? Firstly China had mid-range ICBM long before India, therefore China could easily have launched an attacked on India; how was India going to defend itself? Secondly, how can India’s atomic bomb act as deterrent given China were fully aware that Indian missiles were not capable of entering Chinese airspace? In the meantime Pakistan and India engages in 4 wars.

All I am saying is that given the facts above, it’s ridiculous to suggest India’s motive behind the atomic bomb was China.





Don’t you get it? Hindu majority do not have to guard themselves against a Muslim minority in their homeland.

in bold ....

 

[Romali_rotti]

& this forum via its pakistani posters is offical mouthpiece of our army & govt.... lolz


...this is 1 funny thread & i luv it







-dont go anywhere,i am gonna see if i can find the ingredients for a african bomb

lol ),

 

[Romali_rotti]

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eChudeOpEHs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

lol Look like 2 kids arguing with each other, I am right no you are wrong..

 

[Indiafan]

I will add my two cents which might not have direct relevance to the points being discussed

India as a country has never thought in terms of being muslims or hindus. Yes, we have out occasional internal disputes, we have had our Gujrat and Ayodha, but religion has never been used as a part of foreign policy. Indians be it hindus or muslims or anyone, first identify themselves as Indians and then by their religion

It is true that Pakistan might be considered a threat as big as China(if we do, its wrong, going forward, China will be our biggest competitior in everything) and the nuclear bomb might have been inspired by both the threats, but turning it into a hindu/muslim debate is to show one doesnt understand what makes India tick

The common man in India might still get worked up when Pakistan is being show-caused as a threat, but its because of our history, the common man doesnt think in terms of hindu-muslims while thinking of Pakistan. A nation as diverse as India cannot survive or make progress if it starts thinking in terms of religions

I can definitely understand the Pakistani view, the whole nation was built on a religious identity and the lines between nationalism and religion gets blurred. But to impose the same view on a country like India, were so many different dynamics and regional elements come together to make the whole country, is to show one's ignorance about how the country works

India might be concerned about Pakistan, but because it shares a troubled history, a LOC and some threat of exported terrorism from Pakistan, not because its challenged by its religion. India was never a hindu country and will never be one. As the nation tries to make progress at the world stage, more and more of its population has began to understand that a country like India cannot make any progress based on religious semantics. We need unity, not divisions to make this large bemoth tick. As soon as you start differntiating among religions, regions, caste, you divide the country into hundred different views and sects. Nationalism is the only thing uniting so many varied people. Heck we have 33 languages and all the world's major religions. How can one claim that such a country's foreign or domestic policies can be framed around religion?

We have not reached a perfect stage on eliminating any of the above differences and maybe we never will. But we have more or less learnt to live with out differences. And every year we make a little progress in terms of being more of a united country. After all, when mouths start getting fed on a more regular basis, people would like to maintain that status quo. Its only when people are unhappy that differences creep in and one starts withdrawing from one's neighbours. Of course, there is so much inequality, lack of education, poverty, we still have to work towards. But I believe for a country like India, with its slow intial progress, corruption inherited from the British times, large section of people in poverty, 50 years is not enough to make it a perfect country and even 50 more years might not be

But one thing is for sure. India has recognised the value of risisng above divisions and acting as one country. It might still be doing it grudgingly and tension might still be simmering just under its skin with our occasional explosions, but we are slowly but surely discovering that we are stronger united than divided. We were never defined by our religion and never will

As for the likes of Thackreys and SIMIs, there are strip joints and brothels in India because there is some demand from frusturated youths. Similarly, these sections exist to please the whims of a small % of populace living in the past who like to listen and believe in rheotoric. They are not strong forces and will go extinct if they do not realise the changing ground realities. The rise of so called 'hindu' extremism is just the frusturated last gasps of people not in touch with reality and who want to stir attention to themselves. They wont succeed, Indians wont let them succeed

Again, I can understand the Paksiatni view, maybe they cannot understand how a hindu in India or a muslim in India cannot find religion to be as improtant as they do in Pakistan. But rememebr for over 50 + years, Pakistanis have always thought of Islam when they think of their country whereas in India for 50 years after independence, hindus and muslims have been put together with a common goal of seeing India as one move forward. 50 years is a long time and one adapts to what one faces. I have sometimes seen people here blame Indian muslims for bending over backwards to please hindus but its not an appeasment brought about by force and fear, Its the respect and love given to people whom you live with, day in and out. Hindus reciprocate the same. Its impossible not to have a merger of rituals, culture and religon when you spend your lifetime with other people. I have lieved with muslims and have so many muslim firends and I can stick out my neck and say that they identify themselves with India and have more in common with India than they ever will with Pakistan.

 

[QuarterBack]

I can definitely understand the Pakistani view, the whole nation was built on a religious identity and the lines between nationalism and religion gets blurred. But to impose the same view on a country like India, were so many different dynamics and regional elements come together to make the whole country, is to show one's ignorance about how the country works

You need to understand something. The very fact that a secular India exists to this date is in itself a slap across the face for those claiming that hindus and muslims cannot live together (the very reason that Pak was created). On the other hand, the same muslims could not live with one another and East Pakistan wanted out and became Bangladesh. What we seen is not that hindus and muslims cannot live together (as claimed by the delusionals) but that muslims in Pakistan and Bangladesh could not live together.

These are people who keep repeating to themselves every night before bed that hindu-muslim unity is impossible and hence start believing it. Once you reach that grandiose level of delusion, there is little to do to attempt to reason with them.

Hence you see ideas like Jewish bomb, Hindu bomb, Islamic bomb et al.

 

[jheenga]

lol .... a youtube vidoe for bro dv - this was telecast live & shows how my bro"s ticked off a outsider



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9JCusfje0

 

[Indiafan]

You need to understand something. The very fact that a secular India exists to this date is in itself a slap across the face for those claiming that hindus and muslims cannot live together .

Not only does it exisit, we seem to be doing pretty well

 

[QuarterBack]

Not only does it exisit, we seem to be doing pretty well

But we will be around only for another 20 or so years before the "great leaders of Pakistan lead the muslim world and India will not only let go of Kashmir but bow down to them since they will be the world super power". Some people say this in the same breath as claiming that we have dreams of becoming a superpower!

 

[dps2009]

What is your obsession with Shiv Sena?

It's a fringe party which is not even in power in ONE state from TWENTY EIGHT states and seven Union Territories in India.

There must be dozens on parties which are far more relevant to Indian politics than Shiv Sena which is already divided due to family disputes.

And which minority rule are you talking about? Mughals and Sultans of Delhi were our own, by all means. A government is much more than mere religion in a state with multi-variate cultures like India. What those rulers were judged on were their administrative and military power and ability to bring stability and security to the populace.

You seem obsessed with the fact that there were Muslim kings in India for years. Majority of Indians neither find that odd nor care about it, at all.

In fact, if you would want the general view-point, the British rule is what is hated throughout India. The mughals were our own people.

We have a Sikh prime minister and the chairperson of our ruling party is Christian. Our President is Hindu and Vice-President is Muslim. Guess what, it neither bothers us nor does it matter all that much to us.

As for the nuclear power, well, you don't need a clear threat hanging on your head to acquire weapons. When weapons as powerful as nuclear weapons exist, it is natural for a country with "ambitions to be a superpower"(in your terms) to want to acquire it.

We have no antagonism towards any Arab countries and our relationship with most Arab countries (and Muslim countries except for those in our immediate neighborhood) is amicable. Strategic threat from China is definitely something that drives our country to bolster its defense and there is a threat from Pakistan too. But, there is no threat from the "muslim world" in general as India itself is part of the muslim world as it has one of the highest muslim populations in the world.

well said!

except for hindutva nutters no one in india thinks of mughals being anything other than indians who enriched india's history. hell there are so many roads named after mughals in new delhi. i am pretty sure there is even an aurganzeb road in the capital of india!

in any case in the mughal era muslims were not 1- 2% then they were a substantial part of the population.

this concept that hindus should be feeling persecuted being "ruled by minorities" in the middle age is laughable at best and reveals the disconnect between ground reality and someone's preconcieved notion about indians.

we are talking about a country who has had more than a few muslim presidents, chief of air force and army staff etc. so muslims have led the country even after independence..

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I think differently too.

Pakistan is obviously a bigger security threat for India than China.

But, it has nothing to do with Pakistan being an Islamic country. It has more to do with the fact that there are clear tension between the two countries and there have been wars in the past as well.

Religion doesn't come into picture here, at least, from the Indian side.

I agree. I havent followed the thread fully so can't comment on what has been said about Indias reaction to the "islamic" bomb but I find it laughable how some Indians think that the Indian army/government considers Pakistan as not much of a threat.

Indias defence policy revolves around Pakistan. The same can be said for Pakistan that its defence policy revolves around India.

 

[Romali_rotti]

but I find it laughable how some Indians think that the Indian army/government considers Pakistan as not much of a threat.

No one has said Pakistan is not a threat, ofcourse Pakistan is a threat but not to the scale China is.

Indias defence policy revolves around Pakistan.

NO it doesnt revolve around Pakistan, it revolves around China & then Pakistan. Our defence budget is around 30 Billion a year, use logic we dont need to spend that much worrying about Pakistan when China has totally mapped out India with 1 missile targeting each state of India.

for Pakistan that its defence policy revolves around India.

Agreed...

Bold

 

[Sachin85]

well said!

except for hindutva nutters no one in india thinks of mughals being anything other than indians who enriched india's history. hell there are so many roads named after mughals in new delhi. i am pretty sure there is even an aurganzeb road in the capital of india!

in any case in the mughal era muslims were not 1- 2% then they were a substantial part of the population.

this concept that hindus should be feeling persecuted being "ruled by minorities" in the middle age is laughable at best and reveals the disconnect between ground reality and someone's preconcieved notion about indians.

we are talking about a country who has had more than a few muslim presidents, chief of air force and army staff etc. so muslims have led the country even after independence..

Well said! and from an Indian Muslim, I think?

These whole nonsense people are being fed about Muslims being treated by contempt etc, is blown out of proportion by ignorance.

A lot of PPers from Pakistan have visited India, maybe they can shed a light on how they felt Muslims were treated.

 

[jzdanish]

I think General Mush ripped apart our indian posters here to such a extent they should never post in this specific thread. Hilarious.. 80% of the force is deployed towards Pakistan but India faces a greater threat from China hahahahaha.. thanks for the jokes kids.

I wonder who has the guts now to claim China is a greater threat? Come on, lets see who is a fool here

 

[baazigar420]

I think General Mush ripped apart our indian posters here to such a extent they should never post in this specific thread. Hilarious.. 80% of the force is deployed towards Pakistan but India faces a greater threat from China hahahahaha.. thanks for the jokes kids.

I wonder who has the guts now to claim China is a greater threat? Come on, lets see who is a fool here

Yeah we made nukes to slam dunk pakistan

 

[Romali_rotti]

I think General Mush ripped apart our indian posters here to such a extent they should never post in this specific thread. Hilarious.. 80% of the force is deployed towards Pakistan but India faces a greater threat from China hahahahaha.. thanks for the jokes kids.

I wonder who has the guts now to claim China is a greater threat? Come on, lets see who is a fool here :)

Errrrr we dont have border issues with China to the extent we have with you, thats why... China still the top dawg.................. I dont get it why you Pakistanis want that crown as the major threat to India ? Will it build your economy or stop all the problems in Pakistan ?, The dufus that started this thread already indicated that he doesnt care about the Pakistani civilian casualties caused by the American drones but heck he is very keen on being India's main threat... If Pakistan has many of you lot, country is indeed doomed....




P>S> China is still our major threat...

 

[KingKhanWC]

@ KingkhanWC

I’ve read the Telegraph article you cited in post #206 and it’s pretty damn obvious that from 9/11 to the alleged death of OBL, there was only one purpose – The Islamic Bomb.

I am sure you will find the following very interesting (Indians: have your Kleenex tissue handy)

Pakistan on path to be the 5th largest nuclear power – Click Here

Some excerpts:









Now for my favourite excerpt:



This must be a trick question. It’s painfully obvious that US aid to Pakistan is what finances Pakistan’s weapons program. Of course the logical question here is what will Pakistan do with all these new generation nuclear weapons? Only a handful are needed to defend against India. The answer is quite simple and refers to what you’ve said; sell them to other Muslim nations.

Amazing isn’t it? Pakistan has created what is known as the Nuclear Dollar Cycle. US sends Pakistan aid, Pakistan builds nuclear Weapons, then Pakistan sells them to other Muslim nations on A.Q. Khan’s proliferation network– resulting in profit. How’s that for prudent investment?

Meanwhile, US Military personal is cut significantly in Pakistan - Click Here.

Could it be any more obvious? US are attempting to salvage US-PAK relationship at any cost for the sake of the ‘Islamic’ bomb. US has no idea of Pakistan’s silo locations, no idea of Pakistan’s enhanced Second-Strike capability, and no idea of the Pakistan Nuclear Strike strategy. Meanwhile our president is begging for handouts!

By the way, remember 'THIS' PP thread citing a video on Indian media reporting on Pakistan’s 4th nuclear reactor?

Comments of denial by Indian users:









It turns out the news channel wasn't blowing smoke after all!

Ha, Ha, fantastic post NH, thanks for sharing.

No doubt Pakistan will sell nuclear expertise to the Muslim nations. This is why there is so much desperation from Zionist and Hinduvita ideologies about this. Unlike the Indian posters on here they know the bond between Muslims and far this could go with Pakistan leading the way.

Time is ticking away, Israel wants to form greater Israel before this happens so expect a war with Arabs soon. Ideally they would want to go to war with the Arabs after removing/weakening the nuclear program in Pakistan but they are failing to do so.

 

[guvi]

Ha, Ha, fantastic post NH, thanks for sharing.

No doubt Pakistan will sell nuclear expertise to the Muslim nations. This is why there is so much desperation from Zionist and Hinduvita ideologies about this. Unlike the Indian posters on here they know the bond between Muslims and far this could go with Pakistan leading the way.

Time is ticking away, Israel wants to form greater Israel before this happens so expect a war with Arabs soon. Ideally they would want to go to war with the Arabs after removing/weakening the nuclear program in Pakistan but they are failing to do so.

haha what a brotherhood between muslim nations... but you still want to sell it. Why doesn't pakistan just pass nuclear know how to all muslim nations? along with few sample warheads? and you think big daddy and other NATO countries will be mute spectators to this "bhaichaara" ???

 

[Fawad]

haha what a brotherhood between muslim nations... but you still want to sell it. Why doesn't pakistan just pass nuclear know how to all muslim nations? along with few sample warheads? and you think big daddy and other NATO countries will be mute spectators to this "bhaichaara" ???

Why are your panties in such a twist if Pakistan passes nuclear secrets to other Muslim countries? I can see why the imperialists are threatened but why are you?

 

[KingKhanWC]

haha what a brotherhood between muslim nations... but you still want to sell it. Why doesn't pakistan just pass nuclear know how to all muslim nations? along with few sample warheads? and you think big daddy and other NATO countries will be mute spectators to this "bhaichaara" ???

1. Trade is allowed and recommended between Muslim nations. It's benefits both.

2. Indians can bank their hopes on western nations and this is why I earlier explained why India is a puppet to western zionist based polices but did they stop Pakistan from becoming nuclear? In the same way after they leave the region the won't be able to stop Pakistan making sure all major Muslim nations have the bomb.

 

[guvi]

2. Indians can bank their hopes on western nations and this is why I earlier explained why India is a puppet to western zionist based polices but did they stop Pakistan from becoming nuclear? In the same way after they leave the region the won't be able to stop Pakistan making sure all major Muslim nations have the bomb.

who do you guys always live either in past or future? why not present? you have the bomb... you have the military... you have the super duper militia... just come and take the land! why wait till some distance lands to be united and have the bomb? after all you guys are lions! can hunt alone! why wait?

 

[fanimw]

Hindustan is the name given by the arabs...I think. It is not something we chose for ourselves. Just because your country is a theocracy (though your founding father had a different idea of Pakistan than what it turned out to be) doesn't mean we Indians think India is only for the Hindus.

HINDUSTAN name is not given by Arabs it given by Persian read here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustan

 

[KingKhanWC]

who do you guys always live either in past or future? why not present? you have the bomb... you have the military... you have the super duper militia... just come and take the land! why wait till some distance lands to be united and have the bomb? after all you guys are lions! can hunt alone! why wait?

lol. We have a student of Bal Thackery.

Which land are you talking about?

 

[VolcanicAsh]

Ha, Ha, fantastic post NH, thanks for sharing.

No doubt Pakistan will sell nuclear expertise to the Muslim nations. This is why there is so much desperation from Zionist and Hinduvita ideologies about this. Unlike the Indian posters on here they know the bond between Muslims and far this could go with Pakistan leading the way.

Time is ticking away, Israel wants to form greater Israel before this happens so expect a war with Arabs soon. Ideally they would want to go to war with the Arabs after removing/weakening the nuclear program in Pakistan but they are failing to do so.

Do you really believe that there is a genuine bond between Muslims nations?

This has to be one of the biggest myths around, show some evidence to back up this claim. From the time that I can remember I have witness Palestinians suffering and no Muslim nations gives a damn, Arabs dislike Iran and consider it a threat, most Pakistanis find Arabs racist and also dislike Afghans.

There is always something negative going on between shia and sunnis and I can go on and on about this myth that Muslims nations have this invisible bond, which is anything but true.

 

[Indiafan]

I think General Mush ripped apart our indian posters here to such a extent they should never post in this specific thread. Hilarious.. 80% of the force is deployed towards Pakistan but India faces a greater threat from China hahahahaha.. thanks for the jokes kids.

I wonder who has the guts now to claim China is a greater threat? Come on, lets see who is a fool here

Buddy you are talking about mere physical threat. India has more to fear from China becasue China is an emerging superpower and has a head start on India. Everything from its broder policy to popular sentiment is against India.

If India and Pakistan both focus only on the physical aspect and just keep on arming themselves, neither of them will ever make any progress but are more likely to detiorate

In today's mordern age, enemies are defeated and controlled more with soft power than physical bombs. Remember, that much before America became a super-power, it was peddiling its soft-power across the globe. Coke and Mcdonalds worked a long way towards making America's image what it is today. And once it conquered the world economically, America had enough money to be where it is right now, where it is too powerful to even listen to the UN and can make unilateral strikes on any country

This should be India's goal, to make India a global brand over the next couple of decades and the biggest threat for India in this aspect is going to be China

 

[jzdanish]

Buddy you are talking about mere physical threat. India has more to fear from China becasue China is an emerging superpower and has a head start on India. Everything from its broder policy to popular sentiment is against India.

If India and Pakistan both focus only on the physical aspect and just keep on arming themselves, neither of them will ever make any progress but are more likely to detiorate

In today's mordern age, enemies are defeated and controlled more with soft power than physical bombs. Remember, that much before America became a super-power, it was peddiling its soft-power across the globe. Coke and Mcdonalds worked a long way towards making America's image what it is today. And once it conquered the world economically, America had enough money to be where it is right now, where it is too powerful to even listen to the UN and can make unilateral strikes on any country

This should be India's goal, to make India a global brand over the next couple of decades and the biggest threat for India in this aspect is going to be China

Hum.. NO.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Do you really believe that there is a genuine bond between Muslims nations?

This has to be one of the biggest myths around, show some evidence to back up this claim. From the time that I can remember I have witness Palestinians suffering and no Muslim nations gives a damn, Arabs dislike Iran and consider it a threat, most Pakistanis find Arabs racist and also dislike Afghans.

There is always something negative going on between shia and sunnis and I can go on and on about this myth that Muslims nations have this invisible bond, which is anything but true.

Nations as in leaders/governments no, people most certainly yes. This is why it was crucial for the British Empire to establish a puppet regime in charge of what is now known as Saudi Arabia. Once you control the governments, it doesn't matter what the people think.

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

1. Trade is allowed and recommended between Muslim nations. It's benefits both.

2. Indians can bank their hopes on western nations and this is why I earlier explained why India is a puppet to western zionist based polices but did they stop Pakistan from becoming nuclear? In the same way after they leave the region the won't be able to stop Pakistan making sure all major Muslim nations have the bomb.

Writing this for the umpteenth time again -

1. India has never had any abnormal relationship with any Muslim country barring Pakistan and Bangladesh with whom there are border disputes and illegal immigration problems, respectively.

2. Arab League recognizes India as an ally and has no stance on even the Kashmir issue which is projected as an issue for Muslims by Pakistan.

3. India has never fought a war against any country in middle east or in Afghanistan as allies of the US and/or Israel and the only time Indian troops have been deployed in any Muslim country apart from the wars with Pakistan are part of the UN peacekeeping missions. This is quite unlike Pakistan that has been a military ally of the US during the war in Afghanistan.

4. India has been one of the leading countries in the NAM in the past and has never shied away from supporting anti-Israel resolutions in the UN even in the recent years.

So, even if we accept your theory that Israeli and American zionists are the cause of the all the evils on earth, India has hardly been an ally, let alone a stooge of any of these countries as far as military matters as concerned. One country that regularly takes aid from the US, acts as a military ally of the US and also lets the US authorities use their arms in its own territories is your very own nation Pakistan which would be a better fit into the description of a stooge of the US.

Lets not forget the country you reside in - the UK - who have sided with the US in all the recent wars including the indefensible war on Iraq.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Refer to post 438.

Also anyone who believes the Arab league represent the people of Arabia doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Just saw the post.

Some of your points are right. A lot of the conclusions you have drawn are irrational and can be drawn only by someone who is not aware of the ground realities of Indian politics.

You have noted terms and formed opinions on them out of thin air so as to fit your larger viewpoint of the world. I'd call them delusional if they were informed opinions, right now, they are merely uninformed.

 

[jheenga]

Just saw the post.

Some of your points are right. A lot of the conclusions you have drawn are irrational and can be drawn only by someone who is not aware of the ground realities of Indian politics.

You have noted terms and formed opinions on them out of thin air so as to fit your larger viewpoint of the world. I'd call them delusional if they were informed opinions, right now, they are merely uninformed.

u mean they are wrong ...right !!!

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

You can say that, jheenga

 

[Indiafan]

Hum.. NO.

Hmm, yes, its free trade and democarcy which made US what it is today

 

[KingKhanWC]

Just saw the post.

Some of your points are right. A lot of the conclusions you have drawn are irrational and can be drawn only by someone who is not aware of the ground realities of Indian politics.

You have noted terms and formed opinions on them out of thin air so as to fit your larger viewpoint of the world. I'd call them delusional if they were informed opinions, right now, they are merely uninformed.

LOL!

Best debating response since the Britsh Raj left.

Jai Hind .

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

I did not write a long response because I'd have to explain how Indian politics works and has worked over the years and that would be a really long post and my quota of long posts per day is over.

May be I'll post a proper response tomorrow. Basically, BJP and Congress are two different entities but both understand the importance of continuity in international policies. Things like Hindutva, for BJP, was for domestic use only and that too in particular belts where they could garner votes for it. Congress is the natural opponent of these organizations like VHP and RSS who BJP has used over the years because it did not have party workers of its own.

These concepts are far removed from our international relations and defense policies which are handled mainly by the IAS officers in the foreign office. And the current incumbent are the mortal enemies of the groups with Hindutva agenda.

Anyway, I've elongated a post that was supposed to be an explanation for not writing a long post, enough. Laters on this.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Loving the site of Indians PPers on this thread who now have nothing to respond to in terms of substance thus resort to character assasination and grandiose delusion.

For those who have not twigged it yet, the Indian measure of success and failure, thus mentality, is rooted with numbers and statistics, and this thread proves it. Let me explain:

Indians claim China is a greater threat because China has a larger military, larger economy, a longer border dispute, and share the issue of disputed territory over larger landmass compared to that of Kashmir. This is why Indians prefer to play the victim card against China, because their defense on failure boils down to the lesser of two statistics. Whereas Pakistan is a smaller country compared to India in terms of people, landmass, and economy etc. This is the very reason why india will never confess to the real threat that is Pakistan because it will endow India with shame on the back of statistics!

Notice, when Indian media reports on Pakistan’s statistical achievements Indians refuse to accept the news and palm it off as horse pukky. The 4th nuclear reactor in Pakistan as an example; they (Pakistan) have more than us (India)? Pakistan’s statistics are better than us? No it cannot be! It must be false! It must be Masala news!

Indians have never realised (nor will they ever will) that it’s not about the size but about the performance. India dreams of becoming a superpower on the back of record breaking statistics, how delusional. Indians need to pick up a history book and educate themselves on how a small island ruled the world in terms of both economy and military. Indians do not understand the difference between quality and quantity. Got a problem? Throw more resources at it. How to get rich? Don’t spend, just save! Better sportsmen? Just compare the statistics!

Moreover, Indians love to boast about their booming economy which they believe will cement their superpower status. Let’s get real here. Indians worship GDP figures but fail to take into account the destructive factor that is double digit Inflation. Indians fail to understand the difference between price (numerical currency) and value (purchasing power). Give an Indian the choice between RS1000 that will buy a bottle of coke over RS100 that’ll buy a meal and you can guess which the Indian will choose. Indians do not understand that a greater circulation of currency doesn’t denote success; it denotes an undervalue currency. Remember folks, every superpower that has ever influenced in the world, has had the strongest currency at the the time.

The fact is India will hold eternal antipathy towards Pakistan, why? No it’s not because of what Pakistan stands for. No, it’s not because Pakistan handed India its ar*e on a plate. No, it's not becuase Pakistan's nuclear capability is far more superior. Yes, it’s because the inception of Pakistan reduced India’s landmass! Want more? India despises Islam and the British because a minority ruled the majority. More you say? Notice how Indians dance to the tune of numbers in this thread. Their tone of posts have completely changed once the numbers reduced their line of thinking to rubble.

Pakistan has more nukes, more reactors, more ICMBs and a greater production in weapons grade plutonium compared to India; Pakistan achieved all of this in half the time since India tested its first nuke (how the Indians must feel about this statistic). Alas! India refuses to believe Pakistan will sell such weapons to other Muslim nations. Why? The answer lies to the question of a unified Islam. Why do you think India fears a united Islam? You guessed it folks; it will demote the Hindu ideology to the lesser of two unified statistics compared to the Islamic Ideology.

Is it an irony that an Indian invented the number zero? I could go on and on but you all get the idea. However I will add, all is not lost, there is light at the end of the tunnel, India do hold a handful of statistical records, namely the number of illiterate, poor, and those living below the breadline in India.

Moving on to the facade that is secular India. Since when was secularism successful in India? India’s history is littered with secular mutiny and violence, but no, Hindus refuse to acknowledge their history, the more prominent one being the inception of Pakistan. I ask any Indian who believes India is secular, why, if India is secular, did Muslims want an independent nation, and suceeded? Why, if India is secular do Skihs want independence? But no, there are more Muslims in India compared to Pakistan that's the pansy answer provided by Indias (another statistical comparision!)

Let’s not forget of the rise of Hindu extremism in India and the treatment of ethnic minorities. Right wing Hindu parties are not only increasing in numbers (there’s that word again!), but in momentum too. The government is helpless against such movements.

Indians are ingrained with secularism? How? Through Bollywood, that's how. Just as the Americans attempt to rewrite history through Hollywood, Bollywood is no different. Notice how the more recent storylines revolve around Muslim/Hindus or how about the more recent inclusion of Punjabi Skihs in movies (yes the Punjabi accent and prose is cringeworthy). That’s right folks, India ingrains secularism through escapism.

Secularism is a myth in India, in a land where the cow – sacred to Hindus but sacrificial to Muslims - has more rights, more respect, and greater privileges compared to humans. The fact is that a lion and a sheep cannot share the same pasture; nature proves this, it is the carnivore that rises up the food chain and not the herbivore.

To sum up the post above in a matter of words - Indians got nuked in this thread – pardon the pun.

Allah-hu-akbar.

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!

 

[dps2009]

^^^
to sum up the post in 3 words.. delusion! ignorance !paranoia !

gotta love the armchair experts who know more about india than indians themselves

what's funny is this pathological need to see indian hindus as anti muslim : perhaps as a justification for the creation of the state of pakistan. whatever may have happened in 1947, as it stands now indian muslims are happy and well adjusted for the most part and no way in hell would they even contemplate switching places with pakistanis. chew on that!

hindu fundamentalism is surely a problem but it is thankfully a lunatic fringe and by no means represents the views of majority of hindus.

way to be bitter about india's GDP economic growth, the standard of living is going up and the huge emerging middle class is a reality whether you like it or not . i would like to see trickle down effects to the lowest economic strata of society but that will take another couple generations.

the best part is india and indians are optimistic about the future. can you say that about pak?

 

[GOAT]

Of course, damn those Chinese!

 

[Romali_rotti]

No no, the image in the 'filthy city thread' that was photoshopped!

At the end 7 pages you finally talking sense boi...Zadari would be proud..

 

[cricketindiafan]

Loving the site of Indians PPers on this thread who now have nothing to respond to in terms of substance thus resort to character assasination and grandiose delusion.

For those who have not twigged it yet, the Indian measure of success and failure, thus mentality, is rooted with numbers and statistics, and this thread proves it. Let me explain:

Indians claim China is a greater threat because China has a larger military, larger economy, a longer border dispute, and share the issue of disputed territory over larger landmass compared to that of Kashmir. This is why Indians prefer to play the victim card against China, because their defense on failure boils down to the lesser of two statistics. Whereas Pakistan is a smaller country compared to India in terms of people, landmass, and economy etc. This is the very reason why india will never confess to the real threat that is Pakistan because it will endow India with shame on the back of statistics!

Notice, when Indian media reports on Pakistan’s statistical achievements Indians refuse to accept the news and palm it off as horse pukky. The 4th nuclear reactor in Pakistan as an example; they (Pakistan) have more than us (India)? Pakistan’s statistics are better than us? No it cannot be! It must be false! It must be Masala news!

Indians have never realised (nor will they ever will) that it’s not about the size but about the performance. India dreams of becoming a superpower on the back of record breaking statistics, how delusional. Indians need to pick up a history book and educate themselves on how a small island ruled the world in terms of both economy and military. Indians do not understand the difference between quality and quantity. Got a problem? Throw more resources at it. How to get rich? Don’t spend, just save! Better sportsmen? Just compare the statistics!

Moreover, Indians love to boast about their booming economy which they believe will cement their superpower status. Let’s get real here. Indians worship GDP figures but fail to take into account the destructive factor that is double digit Inflation. Indians fail to understand the difference between price (numerical currency) and value (purchasing power). Give an Indian the choice between RS1000 that will buy a bottle of coke over RS100 that’ll buy a meal and you can guess which the Indian will choose. Indians do not understand that a greater circulation of currency doesn’t denote success; it denotes an undervalue currency. Remember folks, every superpower that has ever influenced in the world, has had the strongest currency at the the time.

The fact is India will hold eternal antipathy towards Pakistan, why? No it’s not because of what Pakistan stands for. No, it’s not because Pakistan handed India its ar*e on a plate. No, it's not becuase Pakistan's nuclear capability is far more superior. Yes, it’s because the inception of Pakistan reduced India’s landmass! Want more? India despises Islam and the British because a minority ruled the majority. More you say? Notice how Indians dance to the tune of numbers in this thread. Their tone of posts have completely changed once the numbers reduced their line of thinking to rubble.

Pakistan has more nukes, more reactors, more ICMBs and a greater production in weapons grade plutonium compared to India; Pakistan achieved all of this in half the time since India tested its first nuke (how the Indians must feel about this statistic). Alas! India refuses to believe Pakistan will sell such weapons to other Muslim nations. Why? The answer lies to the question of a unified Islam. Why do you think India fears a united Islam? You guessed it folks; it will demote the Hindu ideology to the lesser of two unified statistics compared to the Islamic Ideology.

Is it an irony that an Indian invented the number zero? I could go on and on but you all get the idea. However I will add, all is not lost, there is light at the end of the tunnel, India do hold a handful of statistical records, namely the number of illiterate, poor, and those living below the breadline in India.

Moving on to the facade that is secular India. Since when was secularism successful in India? India’s history is littered with secular mutiny and violence, but no, Hindus refuse to acknowledge their history, the more prominent one being the inception of Pakistan. I ask any Indian who believes India is secular, why, if India is secular, did Muslims want an independent nation, and suceeded? Why, if India is secular do Skihs want independence? But no, there are more Muslims in India compared to Pakistan that's the pansy answer provided by Indias (another statistical comparision!)

Let’s not forget of the rise of Hindu extremism in India and the treatment of ethnic minorities. Right wing Hindu parties are not only increasing in numbers (there’s that word again!), but in momentum too. The government is helpless against such movements.

Indians are ingrained with secularism? How? Through Bollywood, that's how. Just as the Americans attempt to rewrite history through Hollywood, Bollywood is no different. Notice how the more recent storylines revolve around Muslim/Hindus or how about the more recent inclusion of Punjabi Skihs in movies (yes the Punjabi accent and prose is cringeworthy). That’s right folks, India ingrains secularism through escapism.

Secularism is a myth in India, in a land where the cow – sacred to Hindus but sacrificial to Muslims - has more rights, more respect, and greater privileges compared to humans. The fact is that a lion and a sheep cannot share the same pasture; nature proves this, it is the carnivore that rises up the food chain and not the herbivore.

To sum up the post above in a matter of words - Indians got nuked in this thread – pardon the pun.

Allah-hu-akbar.

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!

Hope that helped you sleep better.

Just to throw another stat on the HDI, India is 119, Pakistan is 125. I hope you did ponder about it while you slept.

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Standard of living going up? Someone show this guy the filthy city thread. Rose coloured glasses or what?

You do realize that a developing country can not become as affluent as a developed one in a a decade or so, right?

When someone talks about standard of living going up, they talk in a statistical way and mainly about the rapid urbanization and growth of urban centres and middle-class in India.

The benefits of these have not yet seeped in to make a tangible difference to the life of the poor.

It is a slow process and standard of living going up refers to a trend and doesn't mean there is no room for improvement. Surely, you can understand the difference between a someone claiming the presence of a trend of improvement and someone claiming that things are all honky dory.

You're proving to be bitter and disruptive here by needlessly insulting Indian posters and Indian people which the likes of Namak Halal and KingkhanWC have not indulged in.

If you are incapable of having a civil discussion then stick to are we still pretending that goats don't eat grass and animals don't have wet dreams type of threads that you're undoubtedly entertaining in.

 

[LethalSami]

Hope that helped you sleep better.

Just to throw another stat on the HDI, India is 119, Pakistan is 125. I hope you did ponder about it while you slept.

Hey look at it this way......both India and Pakistan hit a century on HDI .............

now we'll make a good sub-continent team

 

[Sachin85]

Nations as in leaders/governments no, people most certainly yes. This is why it was crucial for the British Empire to establish a puppet regime in charge of what is now known as Saudi Arabia. Once you control the governments, it doesn't matter what the people think.

It was Pakistani soldiers who were raping and murdering hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshi Muslims. Not the British. When push came to shove, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan behaved in the most un-Islamic way. Religion took a backseat.

Bloody joke!

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Indians claim China is a greater threat because China has a larger military, larger economy, a longer border dispute, and share the issue of disputed territory over larger landmass compared to that of Kashmir. This is why Indians prefer to play the victim card against China, because their defense on failure boils down to the lesser of two statistics. Whereas Pakistan is a smaller country compared to India in terms of people, landmass, and economy etc. This is the very reason why india will never confess to the real threat that is Pakistan because it will endow India with shame on the back of statistics!

I agree that Pakistan is a bigger security threat to India than China. I'm sure, most people in India and the Indian government think the same as well.

However, that does not mean that every policy decision in India is taken based on the threat from Pakistan. Many of our economic policies and larger military goals (including the nuclear power) were decided keeping the competition and threat from China in mind.

Remember that it is called an arms "race". It is not based as much on "fear" as it is based on competition. They've got it, so, we need to get it as well. That is the spirit which led to nuclear power accumulation in India.

Notice, when Indian media reports on Pakistan’s statistical achievements Indians refuse to accept the news and palm it off as horse pukky. The 4th nuclear reactor in Pakistan as an example; they (Pakistan) have more than us (India)? Pakistan’s statistics are better than us? No it cannot be! It must be false! It must be Masala news!

That news might be true. India TV is a source that is laughed at by everyone in India. However, I don't reckon anyone will have a problem in accepting it if it is reported by any credible media outfit, Indian or international.

Moreover, Indians love to boast about their booming economy which they believe will cement their superpower status. Let’s get real here. Indians worship GDP figures but fail to take into account the destructive factor that is double digit Inflation. Indians fail to understand the difference between price (numerical currency) and value (purchasing power). Give an Indian the choice between RS1000 that will buy a bottle of coke over RS100 that’ll buy a meal and you can guess which the Indian will choose. Indians do not understand that a greater circulation of currency doesn’t denote success; it denotes an undervalue currency. Remember folks, every superpower that has ever influenced in the world, has had the strongest currency at the the time.

Wrong.

People in India do appreciate the strides forward but are genuinely worried about the inflation-related problems you have talked about. Nobody is delusional out here and people of India have and thrown out governments who tried the favourable stats based "India Shining" propaganda.

But, the growth of private industries, foreign direct investments, higher job opportunities in urban India, growth of middle class etc are REAL. This rapid economic development is helping a particular class of professionals in India, right now, and suddenly, the middle class gaining more and more importance in the polity. These are positive trends that are being acknowledged by most. But, if you really think that people do not understand the kind of problems the country faces, you just need to look around in Indian newspaper oped coloumns or some credible TV channels.

Corruption, inflation, social injustice, security are the MAIN issues that get discussed in India, right now, and elections are won or lost based on performance standards on these issues.

The fact is India will hold eternal antipathy towards Pakistan, why? No it’s not because of what Pakistan stands for. No, it’s not because Pakistan handed India its ar*e on a plate. No, it's not becuase Pakistan's nuclear capability is far more superior. Yes, it’s because the inception of Pakistan reduced India’s landmass! Want more? India despises Islam and the British because a minority ruled the majority. More you say? Notice how Indians dance to the tune of numbers in this thread. Their tone of posts have completely changed once the numbers reduced their line of thinking to rubble.

Pakistan has more nukes, more reactors, more ICMBs and a greater production in weapons grade plutonium compared to India; Pakistan achieved all of this in half the time since India tested its first nuke (how the Indians must feel about this statistic). Alas! India refuses to believe Pakistan will sell such weapons to other Muslim nations. Why? The answer lies to the question of a unified Islam. Why do you think India fears a united Islam? You guessed it folks; it will demote the Hindu ideology to the lesser of two unified statistics compared to the Islamic Ideology.

These parts are simple put - wrong.

People in India, in general, do not care about Pakistan. The topic of Pakistan comes up only in defense related issues which is NOT the central issue in India. Indian people generally look inwards and a lot of internal issues are more important to Indians than what is happening at Pakistan.

Nobody and absolutely nobody in India compares various facets of our society to how they are in Pakistan. In fact, the India-centric-ness in Pakistan is way more than Pakistan-centric-ness in India.

Secondly, Indian thinking and the challenges before Indian people are largely economic in nature and hardly religious. People are worried about health sector, lack of education, plight of farmers, debates on displacement of farmers for industrialization and most importantly corruption are the main issues in front of India at the moment and except for the Kashmir issue and the Ayodhya issue (which has been dormant for a while now) no other issues in India have any religious undertones.

Moving on to the facade that is secular India. Since when was secularism successful in India? India’s history is littered with secular mutiny and violence, but no, Hindus refuse to acknowledge their history, the more prominent one being the inception of Pakistan. I ask any Indian who believes India is secular, why, if India is secular, did Muslims want an independent nation, and suceeded? Why, if India is secular do Skihs want independence? But no, there are more Muslims in India compared to Pakistan that's the pansy answer provided by Indias (another statistical comparision!)

Let’s not forget of the rise of Hindu extremism in India and the treatment of ethnic minorities. Right wing Hindu parties are not only increasing in numbers (there’s that word again!), but in momentum too. The government is helpless against such movements.

You haven't yet told me how you assumed that Hindu extremism is rising. In fact, the reality of the situation is that it was at an all time high from 1990 to 2002 and has become almost a non-issue now. The polity and the debates in India are largely economic in nature now and there are no religious undertones to it.

Yes, there have been riots in India, but, in a country of a billion people and multiple cultures, such unfortunate flare ups tend to happen because of few idiotic hardliners.

India, with its policies, and its rules is not only secular in nature but is also slightly minority appeasing. The amount of reservations in jobs and colleges for the minority section keeps going up and not in a single case has a government ever dared to cancel the reservations for any section.

Indians are ingrained with secularism? How? Through Bollywood, that's how. Just as the Americans attempt to rewrite history through Hollywood, Bollywood is no different. Notice how the more recent storylines revolve around Muslim/Hindus or how about the more recent inclusion of Punjabi Skihs in movies (yes the Punjabi accent and prose is cringeworthy). That’s right folks, India ingrains secularism through escapism.

Do you realize that Bollywood is a group of private individuals and organizations and they do not have a shared agenda behind what they do?

Also, have you ever thought that reason behind a lot of movies being made depicting Sikhs or Punjabis might be the presence of a lot of people from Punjab in Bollywood? The Kapoors, the Chopras
and many other Bollywood bigwigs are from Punjab or Delhi (which has a high Punjabi population) side which is why there are a high number of Punjab based movies made.

Have you also noted that the influx of large number of film-makers from Delhi has resulted in a large number of films based in Delhi rather than Mumbai which used to be the case for decades?

Secularism is a myth in India, in a land where the cow – sacred to Hindus but sacrificial to Muslims - has more rights, more respect, and greater privileges compared to humans. The fact is that a lion and a sheep cannot share the same pasture; nature proves this, it is the carnivore that rises up the food chain and not the herbivore.

Human beings can live with other human beings.

Wars brought in due to religious differences are the most stupid ways invented my man to die. I'm sure that the prophets of various religions never really wanted me to kill other men simply because they believed the wrong thing.

To sum up the post above in a matter of words - Indians got nuked in this thread – pardon the pun.

Allah-hu-akbar.

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!

To sum up my response in a matter of words - Whatever floats your boat and makes you happy before you go to bed

Allah-hu-akbar

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD! (Looks back to check if RAW commandos have rushed into my room with trishools in their hands)



Also, I'm not really debating things with you. I'm telling you what the situation is in India and (hopefully) clearing some misconceptions.

I am an India who lives in India and I know enough about the mind-set of people surrounding me. Unlike you, I'd be very careful when talking about people in Pakistan and what I perceive to be their mindset because, similar to your opinions on India, my opinions on Pakistan are based on secondary sources and I keep my mind open and understand the margin of error in the opinions I've formed.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I agree that Pakistan is a bigger security threat to India than China. I'm sure, most people in India and the Indian government think the same as well.

.

Yes Pakistan is more of a security threat if it is Jihadi based movments infiltrating the border etc however I am talking a full on war here.


Ans the following 2 questions;

1) If there was a full blooded war between India and Pakistan including Nukes etc which country at the end would have the best chances of survival or would have survived at the end ?

2) India vs China same above scenario.


We will come to the conclusion after your response...

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

But, you also have to take the probability of such a war happening, into account, Romali.

There have been wars in past with Pakistan and due to the Kashmir issue and the infiltration problem, there is perpetual tension between the two countries. Not two forget that the hatred is so much that there might be rogue elements in the forces who might attack each other without even a clearance from the centre and trigger a war.

Whereas, the chances of a war with China are bleak and the disputed territories are not high on the agenda of both countries. There is more of a competition from China and there is an aspiration in India to emulate China than a direct threat to our security.

 

[Romali_rotti]

But, you also have to take the probability of such a war happening, into account, Romali.

There have been wars in past with Pakistan and due to the Kashmir issue and the infiltration problem, there is perpetual tension between the two countries. Not two forget that the hatred is so much that there might be rogue elements in the forces who might attack each other without even a clearance from the centre and trigger a war.

Whereas, the chances of a war with China are bleak and the disputed territories are not high on the agenda of both countries. There is more of a competition from China and there is an aspiration in India to emulate China than a direct threat to our security.

You are not answering the questions...

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

The answers to those questions are pretty obvious. Which is why they were asked, I guess, to drive home your point.

My point is that there are other factors that need to be taken into consideration.

 

[Romali_rotti]

The answers to those questions are pretty obvious. Which is why they were asked, I guess, to drive home your point.

My point is that there are other factors that need to be taken into consideration.

So the ans is obvious; China is the major threat as they hold the potential to wipe us out while Pakistan doesnt.. China holding such potential is far far more concerning than anything Pakistan can put on the table... Chinese already have us circled by building ports in Bangladesh, Pakistan the next battle ground is the Indian Ocean, oh did I forget to mention that they are currently building ports in Sri Lanka ? you go figure.....CASE CLOSED.....

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Countries don't play world of war-craft in real life. Everyone likes to amass as many weapons and strategic presence as possible. That doesn't really mean that there is a high probability of an all out war.

Mathematically speaking -
Probability of a war with country 'X' * Defense capabilities of country 'X' = Threat from country 'X'

I don't see this index being higher for China than Pakistan.

 

[LethalSami]

Pak has around 100+ nuclear warheads and counting.........Pakistani missile technology is superior to indian (Range: can even reach Israel)...........all the methods to deliever the bombs.....Surface, air, and sea.........

i am pretty sure those nukes can reach and destroy every inch of india and then some............

in return india is capable of similar feats........

so PAK-IND nuclear war = totally MAD (mutually assured destruction).............so lets not talk about it....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Countries don't play world of war-craft in real life. Everyone likes to amass as many weapons and strategic presence as possible. That doesn't really mean that there is a high probability of an all out war.

Mathematically speaking -
Probability of a war with country 'X' * Defense capabilities of country 'X' = Threat from country 'X'

I don't see this index being higher for China than Pakistan.

Again you are drifting from my orginial point; China which we both agree has the potential to hurt us more than Pakistan in a full blooded war. Now whether there will be a war or not is not the issue here. However take into account they already kicked our as* once before in a war previously.. See this is what I find funny when debating; too many of you have an ego issue, simply cant accept the truth be it on a hypothetical situation. You drift from the subject by bringing so many other points to make yourself feel better. I asked straight simple blunt questions but the answers I get are; X plus Y = ZXHE etc strange.....

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

To be frank, that's true.

All these military capability talks are only when conventional weapons are counted. If you bring nuclear weapons into account, any country with nuclear weapons can cause considerable damage in any other country, especially if they are adjacent like India, Pakistan and China.

Once there is a nuclear attack, there are NO winners.

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Again you are drifting from my orginial point; China which we both agree has the potential to hurt us more than Pakistan in a full blooded war. Now whether there will be a war or not is not the issue here.. See this is what I find funny when debating; too many of you have an ego issue, simply cant accept the truth be it on a hypothetical situation. You drift from the subject by bringing so many other points when I asked straight simple blunt questions..

I think, your point has been answered. Obviously, China has better military power than Pakistan. How would you know that we both agree on it, otherwise?

I'm merely making another related point. Not disputing your point. Do you have any issues with the related point that I'm making?

 

[Romali_rotti]

I think, your point has been answered. Obviously, China has better military power than Pakistan. How would you know that we both agree on it, otherwise?

I'm merely making another related point. Not disputing your point. Do you have any issues with the related point that I'm making?

Yes we both agree China has a better military than Pakistan.

I think we both can agree that China kicked our as* in a war before.


My issue is this;

Now taking the above 2 points in consideration how is Pakistan a bigger threat than China in a full blooded war ? Possibilities of it happening could be weak but we both cant confidently rule out a possibility of a war either...

 

[StraightHit]

OMG, you guys are still going on?

At this rate, no nuke bombs will be needed or used. The hatred created on this thread will be more powerful than any bomb.

Jeez.

 

[AfridiZindabad]

All I can say is China/India will never think of going on a war. Pakistan is too busy solving its internal problem to start a war. So a war in near future (at least next 20-30 years) isn't possible.

China and India will infact do anything to avoid war, because it will halt their soaring economy.

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Nope, Pakistan is not the bigger threat in a full blooded war. But, given the probabilities of a full blooded war with either countries, Pakistan is a bigger threat.

You're taking a conditional probability here.

A1 = Amount of damage to us if we have a war with Pakistan
A2 = Amount of damage to us if we have a war with China

B1 = Event of having a war against Pakistan
B2 = Event of having a war against China

Now
Threat from Pakistan = T1 = A1*B1
Threat from China = T2 = A2*B2

(Yes, A1 and B1 are not mutually independent and hence a multiplication might not be the most accurate operation but something close to a multiplication for sure)

Now, you're saying that A2>A1. That's true.

But, B2<B1. It's all subjective but I don't reckon B2 is close enough to B1 to make T2 greater than T1.

Decisions have to be taken based on the ultimate threat and not based on capabilities of others. To quote an extreme example, suppose super-powerful aliens exist on some far off planet and the probability of their invasion is close to zero, do you reckon we should start considering them a threat to us, as well?

Of course, this assessment is extremely simplistic and reality is far more complicated. We will need to plan our strategy well to keep China on check and have acquired and developed our nuclear capacity based on this threat as well.

But, it is irrational to say that Indian defense policy makers need to or give higher importance to China than Pakistan.

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

All I can say is China/India will never think of going on a war. Pakistan is too busy solving its internal problem to start a war. So a war in near future (at least next 20-30 years) isn't possible.

China and India will infact do anything to avoid war, because it will halt their soaring economy.

Absolutely.

Chances of a war, thankfully, are very bleak because no country wants to willingly get into the kind of abyss that a war would create.

US indulge in it only because they are fighting in lands far away and their enemies don't have the capacity to launch a war on their land.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Nope, Pakistan is not the bigger threat in a full blooded war. .

That is all I needed to know as this was my point from the beginning itself, rest I am not even going to get into.....

 

[90MPH]

This thread really sums up why there is such hatred between Pakistanis and Indians. Too much passion and emotion, which leads to hatred and vilifying the other country. I know we have some idiotic Pakistani posters but I have lost a respect for some Indian posters in here as well who really have shown their true colors.

 

[dps2009]

You do realize that a developing country can not become as affluent as a developed one in a a decade or so, right?

When someone talks about standard of living going up, they talk in a statistical way and mainly about the rapid urbanization and growth of urban centres and middle-class in India.

The benefits of these have not yet seeped in to make a tangible difference to the life of the poor.

It is a slow process and standard of living going up refers to a trend and doesn't mean there is no room for improvement. Surely, you can understand the difference between a someone claiming the presence of a trend of improvement and someone claiming that things are all honky dory.

You're proving to be bitter and disruptive here by needlessly insulting Indian posters and Indian people which the likes of Namak Halal and KingkhanWC have not indulged in.

If you are incapable of having a civil discussion then stick to are we still pretending that goats don't eat grass and animals don't have wet dreams type of threads that you're undoubtedly entertaining in.

dr freud pwns all in this thread

anyways yes i was obviously referring to the increased standard of living of the middle class and even pointed out that the economic boom of the middle class needs to trickle down to the poorest of the poor who form a substantial part of our population, which has'nt happened yet.


and i don't need to see pics of filthy cities, i have lived in quiet a few. tell me something i don't know . i have no delusions of grandeur about the inequalities in our society but its getting better .

 

[jheenga]

dr freud pwns all in this thread

anyways yes i was obviously referring to the increased standard of living of the middle class and even pointed out that the economic boom of the middle class needs to trickle down to the poorest of the poor who form a substantial part of our population, which has'nt happened yet.


and i don't need to see pics of filthy cities, i have lived in quiet a few. tell me something i don't know . i have no delusions of grandeur about the inequalities in our society but its getting better .

good words both[doc & dps] of you .... & atleast da future looks progressive

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Also, I'm not really debating things with you. I'm telling you what the situation is in India and (hopefully) clearing some misconceptions.

I was prepared to counter your response until I read the comment above; thankfully you saved me the time.

Let’s be fair here, there’s nothing left to debate, and even if there is, you are simply asserting your points (mostly irrelevant and side-stepping) with no substance other than ‘experience’. Sorry, but anecdotal evidence doesn’t count.

Dr. Sachaden Freud – the purpose behind this thread was to discuss the motives behind India’s development of the atomic bomb; placing Indian PPers and India’s nuclear motives under the spotlight. It was neither to discuss the current political affairs that shroud Pakistan nor to discuss the current political relationship between India and Pakistan.

Indian PPers have revealed their true colours and intentions in this thread. Be it through emotive rhetoric, ignorance, frail POVs, or character assassination, the Indian mentality is crystal clear; insecure.



To rewind, here are the three points I highlighted in the OP:

- When Pakistanis take pride in their country’s nuclear accomplishment, Indians are swift at reminding Pakistanis that India first tested their nuke in the 70s.

The thread proves Pakistan’s superior nuclear capability but Indians cannot stomach the reality by labeling us Jihadists when we Pakistanis take pride in our nuclear accomplishment. Hypocrisy, jealousy, or fear? Try all 3.


- When Pakistan’s nuclear expansion is reported in the media, Indians are adamant that the news should be treated as Masala news.

This thread proves why Indians palm off Pakistan’s nuclear accomplishment when reported in Indian media; fear and jealousy.


- When Pakistan declares it developed its nuclear arsenal as a deterrent, Indians ask how Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal has benefited the nation of Pakistan.

The behavior of Indian PPers and their corresponding responses prove how Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal has benefited the nation.



To determine all three points above, this thread probed and examined the ideology, history, and mentality of India – NOT Pakistan. As a result, this thread proved the inability of Indians talking in substance. It proved China was not the impetus behind India’s nuclear ambitions both in technical and political terms. It proved the animosity between Hindus and Muslims not only exists but continues to gain momentum. It proved that an ideology is the fundamental driving force that drives political ambitions.

Above all else, this thread proves that Pakistanis are, and remain, united in their nation’s nuclear motives and achievements, whereas Indians continue to disagree among themselves with respect to their nation’s nuclear motives – sums it all up.

Frankly, Indians have nothing more to offer in this thread; they've dug themselves into a deep hole and are in desperate need of a rope.

Have a great weekend!

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

Namak Halal,

Do you notice that I've never talked about "the Pakistani mentality" from your posts? Stop generalizing things based on comments of a few people.

The reason why those Indian posters laughed off the reports you posted was because it was from India TV which has a really bad reputation in India. It is like The Sun talking about someone having an affair through it's "sources". Doesn't mean that the affair did not happen. But, the source is not reliable enough.

Had you posted the BBC link right in the beginning, nobody would have objected.

A difference of opinion about who a major threat is and what the defense tactics have been and should be aimed at - is a mark of a vibrant society which subscribes to different views, discusses and argues out different options and is yet united in its aim to protect its core values. Probably, it is the secular fiber and multi-culturalism in our country which helps us accept differences in each other without much antipathy.

Secondly, Pakistan has the advantage of having one particular country which is inimical to it - the stereotypical big brother to blame everything on, to compare oneself with, to centre the policies around. (although that is hurting the country now because policies regarding the western front and co-operation with US is a bigger immediate issue)

India has many frontiers to protect its interest at and, hence, leads to policy that might not be based mainly on any particular frontier and lead to difference of opinions over the immediate threat from different fronts. In any case, everyone thinking the same about the country's nuclear .motives is by no means a measure of unity of the society, in general.

Coming to all the things that you've proven, most of the things that you have "proved" and the way that you have "proved" these things (the latest one being amount of casualty in wars against different countries being used as a measure of threat from them) are extremely juvenile in nature and unacceptable in a debate of substance.




Finally, do you see any bitterness in my words? Do you see me calling Pakistanis desperate or in need for a rope and what nots? Do you see me trying to get cheap thrills out of minor and major misfortunes of people in your country and your country has a lot of them, to be frank? Do you see me acting like an authority on the polity and popular thought processes active in your country based on a few reports from secondary sources?

Why is there so much pent up hatred in you? There is only one person looks like he has the rope ready to use (either on yourself or on me) between you and me. And that person is not me.

This latent hatred (which I'll be fair, is present in some of the Indian posters too) is ultimately the reason why our two countries will always be a threat to each other.

 

[Fallen King]

^ Namak Halaal.

Subhan'Allah! You have spoken the truth, my brother. It's pretty similar to their denial in Kashmir situation. Their ability to differentiate between right and wrong has been overtaken by hatred with insecurity, arrogant, ignorance, and it's no coincident why Israel has support from none other than India. My humble request to them is to wake up, and open the eyes for the sake of truth, or at least try to visit in Kashmir to seek the truth. All will be very clear. Pakistan is only hope for Kashmir, Indian Muslim, Middle East including Palestine. It's not coincident why Pakistan was born, and was named after Allaah (SWT). Praise be to Allaah (SWT) - Lord of the Worlds!

 

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

^ Namak Halaal.

Subhan'Allah! You have spoken the truth, my brother. It's pretty similar to their denial in Kashmir situation. Their ability to differentiate between right and wrong has been overtaken by hatred with insecurity, arrogant, ignorance, and it's no coincident why Israel has support from none other than India. My humble request to them is to wake up, and open the eyes for the sake of truth, or at least try to visit in Kashmir to seek the truth. All will be very clear. Pakistan is only hope for Kashmir, Indian Muslim, Middle East including Palestine. It's not coincident why Pakistan was born, and was named after Allaah (SWT). Praise be to Allaah (SWT) - Lord of the Worlds!

I'm sorry, Malikmohsin, but, if you would have cared to read posts of posters other than Namak Halal and KKWC in this very thread, you'd have known that India has supported UN resolutions against Israel which was opposed by the US and most of its strategic allies fairly recently.

Our ties with Israel go up to that of trade and co-operation in military capabilities, but, politically, we've never been pro-Israel or anti-Palestine.

It is ill-infromed to call India an ally of US-Israel nexus, espeically, by Pakistan who are actually a military ally of the US for a long long time now.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Namak Halal,


The reason why those Indian posters laughed off the reports you posted was because it was from India TV which has a really bad reputation in India. It is like The Sun talking about someone having an affair through it's "sources". Doesn't mean that the affair did not happen. But, the source is not reliable enough.

Had you posted the BBC link right in the beginning, nobody would have objected.

Are you actually reading this thread? Sure, India TV has a bad reputation etc, but I cited a way beyond credible link substantiating the news. What's more, I cited a credible link highlighting an example of Hindu extremism india which you dismissed as bias (even though you didn't deny the article). Did you check the source?

Why is there so much pent up hatred in you? There is only one person looks like he has the rope ready to use (either on yourself or on me) between you and me. And that person is not me.

This latent hatred (which I'll be fair, is present in some of the Indian posters too) is ultimately the reason why our two countries will always be a threat to each other.

Wait a minute, just because I pull up Indians on their fallacies I have hatred towards Indians? While I hold my hand up and accept there is an inherent animosity between Hindus/Muslims or India/Pakistan doesn't mean I hate anyone.

I've only twice confronted Indians on PP. One being in the WC cricket thread on Tendu and how greatness cannot be measured in stats, and two, this thread. If I hated Indians or Hindus then I'd have them dancing to my tune on a $5 banjo, at will. Do you see me mocking or cussing Indians/India in other threads?

Once again, this thread was an off-shoot to another thread in which Indians were arrogant enough to dismiss my question whether it was irrelevant, fear, or whether ignorance, I do not know.

I do not hate anyone just because you believe I have shown up Indians by challenging and dismissing Indian PPers on their line of thinking. If anything you should ask Indian PPers why they struggled to defend their beliefs in this thread and ultimately let india down.

 

[Sachin85]

Are you actually reading this thread? Sure, India TV has a bad reputation etc, but I cited a way beyond credible link substantiating the news. What's more, I cited a credible link highlighting an example of Hindu extremism india which you dismissed as bias (even though you didn't deny the article). Did you check the source?





Wait a minute, just because I pull up Indians on their fallacies I have hatred towards Indians? While I hold my hand up and accept there is an inherent animosity between Hindus/Muslims or India/Pakistan doesn't mean I hate anyone.

I've only twice confronted Indians on PP. One being in the WC cricket thread on Tendu and how greatness cannot be measured in stats, and two, this thread. If I hated Indians or Hindus then I'd have them dancing to my tune on a $5 banjo, at will. Do you see me mocking or cussing Indians/India in other threads?

Once again, this thread was an off-shoot to another thread in which Indians were arrogant enough to dismiss my question whether it was irrelevant, fear, or whether ignorance, I do not know.

I do not hate anyone just because you believe I have shown up Indians by challenging and dismissing Indian PPers on their line of thinking. If anything you should ask Indian PPers why they struggled to defend their beliefs in this thread and ultimately let india down.

You have some serious problems. You are dangerously deluded.

If Islam is India's enemy why do we have good relations with almost all other Muslim nations?

Your response: India is just acting friendly. How the hell do you know that?

We have better relations with Muslim nations than Pakistan.

How deluded do you have to be to believe that Pakistan will be allowed to head an Global Islamic Empire after it murdered and raped hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshi Muslims?

Then of course the countless lies spouted by you on this thread about BJP's super secret mission to wipe out Muslims in UP. That was just pathetic and desperate. When asked to show a source you provided nothing, shamelessly.

Again don't try hiding your hatred for India and Hindus. You were the one who ruined the tone of the thread by repeatedly using words like booty whipped. Now you are trying to act like you didn't mean to insult anyone. Pathetic again.

If Islam is India's main threat then why do we have good relations with every other Muslim country??

If Islam is a global brotherhood, then why did you rape and kill your own?

How can you call other countries US and Israel's lapdog when you are being paid by them to bomb your own innocent civilians??

How come you guys feel so much for kashmiri brothers and sisters, but felt nothing for bangladeshi brothers and sisters??

Wake up. See the state Pakistan is in. You can't pick yourself up till you realise you've fallen. Your delusion makes you think Pakistan will be at the helm of a global Islamic empire in 20 years! Look around at your current state and at your past treatment of other Muslims.

Pakistan needs people who can see reality and do something about it, not people like you who see nothing wrong and just dream about glory and try to get other people to do the same.