Why do you believe in God?

[James]

This then brings up the question why this being would do such a thing. Everything from a man made object to all that is in nature has a purpose. This being created all of this for no reason, no purpose?

God to me would be everywhere and nowhere, the nearest thing and the furthest thing away. The whole point is that humans are left to their own devices, so they can learn how to conduct themselves well and treat each other with respect. It would be too easy if we were shown how to do everything.

God's purpose meanwhile in facilitating the creation of humans is unknown. I don't think he did it for his on amusement as such, but like humans, he may not have really known what he was doing, and was conducting what turned out to be his most successful creation experiment. Then he created a system of rules for them to follow, to minimise their pain on Earth, knowing the potentially unmanageable beast that he had created. This is what became religion.

 

[Yossarian]

If there is a straw. Point is when all else has failed.

True. When all else has failed, a person will try and grab onto anything, real or imaginary, that might give him hope. Heck, they'll even start believing that a cow is a God in disguise if that will give them hope.

 

[KingKhanWC]

God to me would be everywhere and nowhere, the nearest thing and the furthest thing away. The whole point is that humans are left to their own devices, so they can learn how to conduct themselves well and treat each other with respect. It would be too easy if we were shown how to do everything.

This then poses the question what is 'good' or how to conduct themselves and treat others with respect. How does a human know what is right or wrong?

God's purpose meanwhile in facilitating the creation of humans is unknown. I don't think he did it for his on amusement as such, but like humans, he may not have really known what he was doing, and was conducting what turned out to be his most successful creation experiment. Then he created a system of rules for them to follow, to minimise their pain on Earth, knowing the potentially unmanageable beast that he had created. This is what became religion.

Hmm I find it difficult to comprehend a being which is so powerful he can created millions of species, the universe but was unable to understand what he created.

 

[KingKhanWC]

True. When all else has failed, a person will try and grab onto anything, real or imaginary, that might give him hope. Heck, they'll even start believing that a cow is a God in disguise if that will give them hope.

Maybe so but I doubt many would be looking for a cow to help them if stuck on top of a mountain freezing to death. They would be surely looking for something which is all powerful. Where does this come from? Is it built within inside a human.

 

[Justcrazy]

What's a perfect manner?

Perfect in the sense , that countless stars and Milky ways all in constant motion , yet following its own path for so many years . Perfect in the sense that Universe is still expanding .

 

[Justcrazy]

How's that any different? Where's it written that a religion has to be rigid and unchanging? How is that practical?

Are you talking from Islam perspective ?

 

[Usman]

An interesting theory I have encountered is that there was once an omnipotent Creator, but even if it viewed itself as indestructible, it was in fact not eternal, and was either killed suddenly by an unforeseeable cataclysm (ie the Big Bang) or died of old age.

This malevolent world within an infinite universe is what it left us with.

Such a theory explains both the incredible physical balance and beauty of Everything, but also the dead silence and comprehensive non-interventionism of a so-called Supreme Being.

An interesting theory but it's just that, a theory with no actual proof. I believe in God, but openly admit there is much I can't explain. Like if there is a God, who created God? If God has put us on this earth as a test, yet he is all knowing, that means he already knows what mistakes we will make, and he's programmed us to make those mistakes. What is the point of us being here if God already knows the outcome of this test.

There are the usual questions too about why babies suffer from terminal illnesses etc.

 

[James]

An interesting theory but it's just that, a theory with no actual proof. I believe in God, but openly admit there is much I can't explain. Like if there is a God, who created God? If God has put us on this earth as a test, yet he is all knowing, that means he already knows what mistakes we will make, and he's programmed us to make those mistakes. What is the point of us being here if God already knows the outcome of this test.

Yeah.... this is when the 'comfort factor' professed by believers comes under scrutiny for me.

Yes he is watching over us and we are not alone - but he also already knows everything we have done, are doing and will do anyway; and everything has already been fatalistically ordained for us; we just have to walk the path, within footprints that have already been carved into the ground, - and he watches, not intervening at any point, as we saunter towards each of our ultimate ends.

Feels more tyrannical and sadistic than benevolent and kind, no?

Concept of God is fascinating and will confound humans as long as there are humans, but the jury is totally out on his intentions and his competence (as well as his origins) IMO.

 

[Robert]

This then poses the question what is 'good' or how to conduct themselves and treat others with respect. How does a human know what is right or wrong?

Lemon squeezy. Treat others the way you would like them to treat you.

Even chimps have figured that out!

 

[TM Riddle]

Perfect in the sense , that countless stars and Milky ways all in constant motion , yet following its own path for so many years . Perfect in the sense that Universe is still expanding .

So if it didn't expand would it have been imperfect? The universe expanding concept is barely a century old.Did your fellow religionists before that maintained that for universe to be perfect it had to expand and not shrink as was thought earlier?
If yes then can you provide an authentic source to back up your claims? If it turns out to be true I would immediately convert to whichever religion you follow.
And if you cannot then I would ask you to please stop plagiarism of scientific material presenting it as deriving its legitimacy from religion.

 

[TM Riddle]

Are you talking from Islam perspective ?

I'm talking from a general perspective.

 

[miandadrules]

I wouldn't say in detail as most of the others made no sense early on but Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Atheist logic to name some.

It's an opinion. When people are on the verge of death or disaster for themselves of a loved one and there is no help in sight, they turn to God.

An interesting case here.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/19/australia

Please give examples and references of the detailed research you did in to these theologies and ideologies.

Also, as I think it's fair to say that no one would confuse for an erudite individual it would be interesting to know what literature you have covered which challenges your preconceived ideas.

So, you have absolutely no evidence or proof to substantiate your claim that EVERYONE BELIEVES IN GOD AND TURNS TO HIM IN TIMES OF HARDSHIP.

Are you suggesting that article is representative of the billions upon billions of people that have lived on Earth?

 

[miandadrules]

Maybe so but I doubt many would be looking for a cow to help them if stuck on top of a mountain freezing to death. They would be surely looking for something which is all powerful. Where does this come from? Is it built within inside a human.

Why surely?

You're failure to even acknowledge your conformational bias is very indicative of why you have the views you have and your inability to substantiate anything you state.

 

[miandadrules]

This then brings up the question why this being would do such a thing. Everything from a man made object to all that is in nature has a purpose. This being created all of this for no reason, no purpose?

Everything has a purpose?

Or is it simply a product of its environment?

 

[miandadrules]

This then poses the question what is 'good' or how to conduct themselves and treat others with respect. How does a human know what is right or wrong?



Hmm I find it difficult to comprehend a being which is so powerful he can created millions of species, the universe but was unable to understand what he created.

The "golden rule" trait was selected for as it was advantageous to the human species to develop. Those who didn't exhibit such traits ultimately perished because groups have greater resources than individuals.

If the only thing that is stopping you from committing murder and rape is the fear of God then the problem is with you and your moral compass than any existential debate we can have.

 

[Heisenberg]

People who say how could the universe be created without their idea of a God. They need to study the universe in more detail and when they are sufficiently blown away by its vastness and rules, they should try to reconcile some of the religious rules that they believe in and how none of it could possibly matter. If a God existed, it wouldn't be so petty.

 

[miandadrules]

People who say how could the universe be created without their idea of a God. They need to study the universe in more detail and when they are sufficiently blown away by its vastness and rules, they should try to reconcile some of the religious rules that they believe in and how none of it could possibly matter. If a God existed, it wouldn't be so petty.

I was going to go down that route but realised that it would be incredibly difficult to explain even the most basic principles to someone unwilling to learn.

Anyone who says this Universe is perfect isn't aware of the "chaos" that surrounds them.

Also, the concept that they live in environment created for them, rather than them being a product of that environment is totally lost on them.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Alright.


Quran is certainly the most accurate book to prove the laws of nature, [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] may help

As much as I respect & love Holy Quran I disagree. To prove the laws of nature you need scientists and Science. It has been the Scientists who have discovered the fundamental forces of nature and have proved them. All through research ie Lab Work.



You cannot prove existence of God to anybody, rather for you it is important to strive in way of God and find Him the way Waliullah's found Him whereby your Eemaan bil Ghaibb converts into Eemaan bil Yaqeen. When will that happen ? It will happen once you develop a living relationship with him.


Otherwise just because Quran says something, or a Scholar told you something or your parents told you something will hold no value and will prove nothing at all.


So it's better to substantiate your own faith for your own self than for anyone else.



Since GOD does not exist in three dimensional space and until the day of judgement nobody will be able to prove existence of GOD physically or scientifically hence the chances of one losing his faith on GOD are more than one developing a belief on GOD.



This is why the most Fastest growing orientation in today's belief wrt to belief or no belief is not Islam but is Aethiest followed by Agnosticism followed by Islam.




If you have IQ & EQ Tests at PP than I have no doubt that miandadrules will be in Top 3. He is one of the hardest nut to Crack. He is very learned, intelligent Man. You Me or No-One can ever prove to Him that GOD exists.



miandadrules & Black Zero are not the random guys who were from non practicing Muslim families and were far away from religion so the distance grew with time and they lost the belief finally. Rather, they are the ones who were not just practicing but have studied Islam & other religions quite abit. So what is the probability and possibility ? GOD has to show up to them personally than they will start believing. Otherwise they won't no matter you throw whatever theory or whatever Scholar at them.




Today the modern World and modern Science tells You and how OLD Human race is. Holy Quran does not tell you that. This has involved fossil studies and genotyping. But when you have living relationship with God than He tells you these things in advance (not scientifically)


Hadhrat Sheikh Muhyiddin Ibn Arabi (Allah have mercy on him) states in Al-Futuhat al-Makkiya in
the chapter on Traditions concerning the world states his Kashaafi Nazaara as :

Once I was circuiting the Kaaba. I found some others circuiting it. Their features seemed to suggest that they weresome spiritual party. So I asked the first among them

Who are you?

He said We are of your ancient ancestors

He asked : How long ago was your time and age?

He said Merely 40000 years

He said But this period is much more than what separates us from Adam.

He said Of which Adam are you speaking, the one nearest to you or other?


Sheikh RT says that at that instance He recollected the narration of a Tradition of the Prophet of Allah Pbuh that before Allah created the Adam that we know he created a hundred thousand Adams.


The Sheikh RT states he met Prophet Enoch (peace and blessings be upon him) in a state of vision and questioned him regarding the authenticity of that vision And Enoch said You report truthfully and your vision is true and true is that which you observed in it.


Similarly 1500 years ago Prophet Muhammad Pbuh Prophecized about Aeroplane in one of His Narrations when the World at that time did not even have a clue of a a bicycle invention down the line.



Than 1500 years ago He Pbuh Prophesized about ISIS. He Pbuh said :


At this time of dissension, there would appear a group of young peoplewho would be immature in thought and foolish. They would speak beautiful words but commit the most heinous of deeds. They would engage in so much prayer and fasting that the worship of the Muslims would appear insignificant in comparison. They would call people to the Quran but would have nothing to do with it in reality. The Quranwould not go beyond their throats, meaning they wouldnt understand its essence at all, merely regurgitating it selectively. The Prophet Pbuh then went on to describe these people as the worst of the creation.


As if this outline wasnt clear enough, another tradition in the book Kitaab Al Fitan reported by Caliph Ali RA, the fourth successor to Prophet Muhammad Pbuh, describes these people as having long hair and bearing black flags. Their hearts will be hard as iron, and they would be the companions of a State (Ashab ul Dawla). Interestingly, ISIS refers to itself as the Islamic State or Dawla. The tradition further mentions that they will break their covenants, not speak the truth and have names that mention their cities. The ISIS caliph, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, comes to mind.


Prophet Mohammed Pbuh claimed that it was GOD who told him this.


Fulfilment of Prophecies of Prophets is another sign of Existence of GOD.



If Jesus, Krishna, Buddha Prophecies about Mohammad Pbuh & Islam did not get fulfilled than more than 85 % Muslims who converted to Islam wouldn't have converted in the first place. All of these were seperated by time and distance and did not even knew each other neither personally nor through writings but there was one Common force behind them which foretold them one thing.

 

[super hitter]

As much as I respect & love Holy Quran I disagree. To prove the laws of nature you need scientists and Science. It has been the Scientists who have discovered the fundamental forces of nature and have proved them. All through research ie Lab Work.

Yes, I agree. To be more correct I may say, Quran doesn't proves but STATES the laws of nature.

 

[super hitter]

As much as I respect & love Holy Quran I disagree. To prove the laws of nature you need scientists and Science. It has been the Scientists who have discovered the fundamental forces of nature and have proved them. All through research ie Lab Work.



You cannot prove existence of God to anybody, rather for you it is important to strive in way of God and find Him the way Waliullah's found Him whereby your Eemaan bil Ghaibb converts into Eemaan bil Yaqeen. When will that happen ? It will happen once you develop a living relationship with him.


Otherwise just because Quran says something, or a Scholar told you something or your parents told you something will hold no value and will prove nothing at all.


So it's better to substantiate your own faith for your own self than for anyone else.



Since GOD does not exist in three dimensional space and until the day of judgement nobody will be able to prove existence of GOD physically or scientifically hence the chances of one losing his faith on GOD are more than one developing a belief on GOD.



This is why the most Fastest growing orientation in today's belief wrt to belief or no belief is not Islam but is Aethiest followed by Agnosticism followed by Islam.




If you have IQ & EQ Tests at PP than I have no doubt that miandadrules will be in Top 3. He is one of the hardest nut to Crack. He is very learned, intelligent Man. You Me or No-One can ever prove to Him that GOD exists.



miandadrules & Black Zero are not the random guys who were from non practicing Muslim families and were far away from religion so the distance grew with time and they lost the belief finally. Rather, they are the ones who were not just practicing but have studied Islam & other religions quite abit. So what is the probability and possibility ? GOD has to show up to them personally than they will start believing. Otherwise they won't no matter you throw whatever theory or whatever Scholar at them.




Today the modern World and modern Science tells You and how OLD Human race is. Holy Quran does not tell you that. This has involved fossil studies and genotyping. But when you have living relationship with God than He tells you these things in advance (not scientifically)


Hadhrat Sheikh Muhyiddin Ibn Arabi (Allah have mercy on him) states in Al-Futuhat al-Makkiya in
the chapter on Traditions concerning the world states his Kashaafi Nazaara as :

Once I was circuiting the Kaaba. I found some others circuiting it. Their features seemed to suggest that they weresome spiritual party. So I asked the first among them

Who are you?

He said We are of your ancient ancestors

He asked : How long ago was your time and age?

He said Merely 40000 years

He said But this period is much more than what separates us from Adam.

He said Of which Adam are you speaking, the one nearest to you or other?


Sheikh RT says that at that instance He recollected the narration of a Tradition of the Prophet of Allah Pbuh that before Allah created the Adam that we know he created a hundred thousand Adams.


The Sheikh RT states he met Prophet Enoch (peace and blessings be upon him) in a state of vision and questioned him regarding the authenticity of that vision And Enoch said You report truthfully and your vision is true and true is that which you observed in it.


Similarly 1500 years ago Prophet Muhammad Pbuh Prophecized about Aeroplane in one of His Narrations when the World at that time did not even have a clue of a a bicycle invention down the line.



Than 1500 years ago He Pbuh Prophesized about ISIS. He Pbuh said :


At this time of dissension, there would appear a group of young peoplewho would be immature in thought and foolish. They would speak beautiful words but commit the most heinous of deeds. They would engage in so much prayer and fasting that the worship of the Muslims would appear insignificant in comparison. They would call people to the Quran but would have nothing to do with it in reality. The Quranwould not go beyond their throats, meaning they wouldnt understand its essence at all, merely regurgitating it selectively. The Prophet Pbuh then went on to describe these people as the worst of the creation.


As if this outline wasnt clear enough, another tradition in the book Kitaab Al Fitan reported by Caliph Ali RA, the fourth successor to Prophet Muhammad Pbuh, describes these people as having long hair and bearing black flags. Their hearts will be hard as iron, and they would be the companions of a State (Ashab ul Dawla). Interestingly, ISIS refers to itself as the Islamic State or Dawla. The tradition further mentions that they will break their covenants, not speak the truth and have names that mention their cities. The ISIS caliph, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, comes to mind.


Prophet Mohammed Pbuh claimed that it was GOD who told him this.


Fulfilment of Prophecies of Prophets is another sign of Existence of GOD.



If Jesus, Krishna, Buddha Prophecies about Mohammad Pbuh & Islam did not get fulfilled than more than 85 % Muslims who converted to Islam wouldn't have converted in the first place. All of these were seperated by time and distance and did not even knew each other neither personally nor through writings but there was one Common force behind them which foretold them one thing.

Thanks.
You have some great knowledge about religions, always a treat to read!

 

[troodon]

What did Jesus, Krishna and Buddha prophecize about Prophet Mohammed?

Never heard of any Prophecy from Krishna about Prophet Mohammed.

 

[shaz619]

Please give examples and references of the detailed research you did in to these theologies and ideologies.

Also, as I think it's fair to say that no one would confuse for an erudite individual it would be interesting to know what literature you have covered which challenges your preconceived ideas.

So, you have absolutely no evidence or proof to substantiate your claim that EVERYONE BELIEVES IN GOD AND TURNS TO HIM IN TIMES OF HARDSHIP.

Are you suggesting that article is representative of the billions upon billions of people that have lived on Earth?

Can you provide your certificates, refferences and proof of theologies , ideologies and docrtines you have researched in-depth to support the opinions you have on God?

Or is it just a matter of hanging out with a few goreh, having a few quid and the luxury of time/security which allows you to develop your own preconcieved intelligence Obviously integrating with the advanced members of society after disowning people of your origin must also help [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] look who's back )

 

[miandadrules]

As much as I respect & love Holy Quran I disagree. To prove the laws of nature you need scientists and Science. It has been the Scientists who have discovered the fundamental forces of nature and have proved them. All through research ie Lab Work.



You cannot prove existence of God to anybody, rather for you it is important to strive in way of God and find Him the way Waliullah's found Him whereby your Eemaan bil Ghaibb converts into Eemaan bil Yaqeen. When will that happen ? It will happen once you develop a living relationship with him.


Otherwise just because Quran says something, or a Scholar told you something or your parents told you something will hold no value and will prove nothing at all.


So it's better to substantiate your own faith for your own self than for anyone else.



Since GOD does not exist in three dimensional space and until the day of judgement nobody will be able to prove existence of GOD physically or scientifically hence the chances of one losing his faith on GOD are more than one developing a belief on GOD.



This is why the most Fastest growing orientation in today's belief wrt to belief or no belief is not Islam but is Aethiest followed by Agnosticism followed by Islam.




If you have IQ & EQ Tests at PP than I have no doubt that miandadrules will be in Top 3. He is one of the hardest nut to Crack. He is very learned, intelligent Man. You Me or No-One can ever prove to Him that GOD exists.



miandadrules & Black Zero are not the random guys who were from non practicing Muslim families and were far away from religion so the distance grew with time and they lost the belief finally. Rather, they are the ones who were not just practicing but have studied Islam & other religions quite abit. So what is the probability and possibility ? GOD has to show up to them personally than they will start believing. Otherwise they won't no matter you throw whatever theory or whatever Scholar at them.




Today the modern World and modern Science tells You and how OLD Human race is. Holy Quran does not tell you that. This has involved fossil studies and genotyping. But when you have living relationship with God than He tells you these things in advance (not scientifically)


Hadhrat Sheikh Muhyiddin Ibn Arabi (Allah have mercy on him) states in Al-Futuhat al-Makkiya in
the chapter on Traditions concerning the world states his Kashaafi Nazaara as :

Once I was circuiting the Kaaba. I found some others circuiting it. Their features seemed to suggest that they weresome spiritual party. So I asked the first among them

Who are you?

He said We are of your ancient ancestors

He asked : How long ago was your time and age?

He said Merely 40000 years

He said But this period is much more than what separates us from Adam.

He said Of which Adam are you speaking, the one nearest to you or other?


Sheikh RT says that at that instance He recollected the narration of a Tradition of the Prophet of Allah Pbuh that before Allah created the Adam that we know he created a hundred thousand Adams.


The Sheikh RT states he met Prophet Enoch (peace and blessings be upon him) in a state of vision and questioned him regarding the authenticity of that vision And Enoch said You report truthfully and your vision is true and true is that which you observed in it.


Similarly 1500 years ago Prophet Muhammad Pbuh Prophecized about Aeroplane in one of His Narrations when the World at that time did not even have a clue of a a bicycle invention down the line.



Than 1500 years ago He Pbuh Prophesized about ISIS. He Pbuh said :


At this time of dissension, there would appear a group of young peoplewho would be immature in thought and foolish. They would speak beautiful words but commit the most heinous of deeds. They would engage in so much prayer and fasting that the worship of the Muslims would appear insignificant in comparison. They would call people to the Quran but would have nothing to do with it in reality. The Quranwould not go beyond their throats, meaning they wouldnt understand its essence at all, merely regurgitating it selectively. The Prophet Pbuh then went on to describe these people as the worst of the creation.


As if this outline wasnt clear enough, another tradition in the book Kitaab Al Fitan reported by Caliph Ali RA, the fourth successor to Prophet Muhammad Pbuh, describes these people as having long hair and bearing black flags. Their hearts will be hard as iron, and they would be the companions of a State (Ashab ul Dawla). Interestingly, ISIS refers to itself as the Islamic State or Dawla. The tradition further mentions that they will break their covenants, not speak the truth and have names that mention their cities. The ISIS caliph, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, comes to mind.


Prophet Mohammed Pbuh claimed that it was GOD who told him this.


Fulfilment of Prophecies of Prophets is another sign of Existence of GOD.



If Jesus, Krishna, Buddha Prophecies about Mohammad Pbuh & Islam did not get fulfilled than more than 85 % Muslims who converted to Islam wouldn't have converted in the first place. All of these were seperated by time and distance and did not even knew each other neither personally nor through writings but there was one Common force behind them which foretold them one thing.

Historical evidence doesn't support this to be the reason for conversion to Islam. Far from it.

Can you please provide evidence of a mass "enlightenment" rather than military conquest and patronage?

 

[miandadrules]

Can you provide your certificates, refferences and proof of theologies , ideologies and docrtines you have researched in-depth to support the opinions you have on God?

Or is it just a matter of hanging out with a few goreh, having a few quid and the luxury of time/security which allows you to develop your own preconcieved intelligence Obviously integrating with the advanced members of society after disowning people of your origin must also help [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] look who's back )

Sure.

Where do you want me to start?

Where have I disowned my people? Please provide some evidence that would support this.

And in contrast we should all provide the work we have all done in Pakistan, as reference point.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Can you provide your certificates, refferences and proof of theologies , ideologies and docrtines you have researched in-depth to support the opinions you have on God?

Or is it just a matter of hanging out with a few goreh, having a few quid and the luxury of time/security which allows you to develop your own preconcieved intelligence Obviously integrating with the advanced members of society after disowning people of your origin must also help [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] look who's back )

Rashid Dawkins type of logic. Demand everyone else to substantiate while ignoring any points raised towards him. When you've been to afternoon tea with pin striped suits and double chins and feel you're advanced in intellect and knowledge.

 

[miandadrules]

Rashid Dawkins type of logic. Demand everyone else to substantiate while ignoring any points raised towards him. When you've been to afternoon tea with pin striped suits and double chins and feel you're advanced in intellect and knowledge.

Where have I failed to address any points raised against me?

It can't be that difficult for you to do as your very fond of throwing such accusations.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lemon squeezy. Treat others the way you would like them to treat you.

Even chimps have figured that out!

Chimps also kill others for territory, food and even out of jealousy.

Why is good ingrained with a being? Who decides what is good and what is bad? I.e If I live only once, why I can't I steal or murder someone because I want what they have?

 

[miandadrules]

Chimps also kill others for territory, food and even out of jealousy.

Why is good ingrained with a being? Who decides what is good and what is bad? I.e If I live only once, why I can't I steal or murder someone because I want what they have?

You would behave in such a way if it wasn't for God?

 

[shaz619]

Sure.

Where do you want me to start?

Where have I disowned my people? Please provide some evidence that would support this.

And in contrast we should all provide the work we have all done in Pakistan, as reference point.

Nothing substantive from you thought so but thanks anyway for attempting to answer my questions, good effort lad

 

[miandadrules]

Nothing substantive from you thought so but thanks anyway for attempting to answer my questions, good effort lad

That's not going to wash with me.

Why are you backing off?

You were happy to throw the accusations so let's start.

 

[shaz619]

That's not going to wash with me.

Why are you backing off?

You were happy to throw the accusations so let's start.

Yeah that's right run off when you got nothing else to say , you didn't answer my questions which means you're a fraud now can't take your hypocritical views or questions seriously try again lad

 

[KingKhanWC]

You would behave in such a way if it wasn't for God?

People do. Many different cultures and societies have a different version of what is 'moral' or what is 'good'. But yes it's natural within people to know but they just don't agree lol.

 

[big_gamer007]

I have been brought up in a way that I have to believe in existence of God.. I respect God and all religions but majority of my decisions are not bound by religion but by what I think is common sense and is good..

 

[miandadrules]

Yeah that's right run off when you got nothing else to say , you didn't answer my questions which means you're a fraud now can't take your hypocritical views or questions seriously try again lad

I'm running off by asking you to be specific as to what aspects you want me to elaborate on?

I'm not going anywhere. Let's have this discussion till its conclusion.

Also, don't be such a coward and substantiate your accusations against me.

 

[miandadrules]

People do. Many different cultures and societies have a different version of what is 'moral' or what is 'good'. But yes it's natural within people to know but they just don't agree lol.

The question was, if it's the fear of God that is stopping you from behaving in such a manner.

Just by you saying so isn't evidence. Please provide proof that unequivocally it is the fear of God that causes people to behave morally. Why is it so difficult for you to ever do this?

Maybe you can contrast it with the rampant immorality of God-less societies.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The question was, if it's the fear of God that is stopping you from behaving in such a manner.

Just by you saying so isn't evidence. Please provide proof that unequivocally it is the fear of God that causes people to behave morally. Why is it so difficult for you to ever do this?

What I said was there is various beliefs in society as to what is good or bad. It is claimed people just know which is good or bad but this cannot be the case if people differ in this regard.

Maybe you can contrast it with the rampant immorality of God-less societies.

I follow the rules set out by God through his revelations and through his messenger.

I never said it was the fear of God which made anyone do anything.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Only when I am in a flight. Even starting praying to Allah when I was flying over Saudi Arabia. Once I step foot on the ground, I become an atheist.

 

[miandadrules]

I follow the rules set out by God through his revelations and through his messenger.

I never said it was the fear of God which made anyone do anything.

You said in that post that people derive their morals from God and only know what is right from wrong because of it?

So are you saying if it wasn't for what you have been taught about God's laws you would commit crimes against your fellow humans?

Also, if what you say is true then crimes against humanity will be committed to a greater degree with by atheist than by those of faith. Can this be proven?

Lastly, can you prove that the concept of say "the golden rule" and morality succeeded the conceptualisation of God?

Did God introduce morality or were the traits that are selected for in human evolution incorporated in to religious beliefs?

These are the salient points which should be answered before making sweeping statements and claiming them to be fact.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You said in that post that people derive their morals from God and only know what is right from wrong because of it?

So are you saying if it wasn't for what you have been taught about God's laws you would commit crimes against your fellow humans?

Also, if what you say is true then crimes against humanity will be committed to a greater degree with by atheist than by those of faith. Can this be proven?

Lastly, can you prove that the concept of say "the golden rule" and morality succeeded the conceptualisation of God?

Did God introduce morality or were the traits that are selected for in human evolution incorporated in to religious beliefs?

These are the salient points which should be answered before making sweeping statements and claiming them to be fact.

I can't help you in understanding the difference between opinion and fact, it's something only you can figure out.

I never said what you are suggesting in your first sentence.

You are missing my point like a hole in the head. What is a crime and what is bad differs from society to society. This is why I follow the rules set out by God.

Atheists in western society are following the laws of the land to determine what is allowed and what is not. Ironically most of these laws are based on historical religious ideas of what is good and bad. God told us what we are allowed to do and what we cant, which is how civilisations have developed in recent history.

 

[miandadrules]

I can't help you in understanding the difference between opinion and fact, it's something only you can figure out.

I never said what you are suggesting in your first sentence.

You are missing my point like a hole in the head. What is a crime and what is bad differs from society to society. This is why I follow the rules set out by God.

Atheists in western society are following the laws of the land to determine what is allowed and what is not. Ironically most of these laws are based on historical religious ideas of what is good and bad. God told us what we are allowed to do and what we cant, which is how civilisations have developed in recent history.

Once against.

Can you prove that these concepts only came about because of organised religion or didbtgey precede it?

Are you saying basic morality differs from one society to another? Can this be proven.

I fully understand the difference between opinion and fact. But for one to establish what is plausible requires explanation. Why can't you provide this?

 

[shaz619]

Once against.

Can you prove that these concepts only came about because of organised religion or didbtgey precede it?

Are you saying basic morality differs from one society to another? Can this be proven.

I fully understand the difference between opinion and fact. But for one to establish what is plausible requires explanation. Why can't you provide this?

I have asked you the same questions, where are the proofs, in-depth research and evidence with regards to your own views? stop it with this cowardly behaviour, at least practice what you preach

 

[miandadrules]

I have asked you the same questions, where are the proofs, in-depth research and evidence with regards to your own views? stop it with this cowardly behaviour, at least practice what you preach

Which view in particular? I will provide evidence for anything I have stated. I asked evidence for specific statements KKWC made. Is it too difficult for you to do?

You made the accusation so please show how I am ashamed of my roots?

The inference from this being that you and twiddle dumb are paragons of Pakistani culture.

You're ignorant babble want get you out of this?

I will state again you are behaving like a coward.

 

[James]

Religion is another kind of philosophy - views on what is good and what is bad are based on arguments from philosophy that consider both nature and culture.

So morality came partly from religious philosophies but also from non-religious philosophies. As human beings we have the ability to think critically, so we can study the various available philosophies and decide which one we agree with the most.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Once against.

Can you prove that these concepts only came about because of organised religion or didbtgey precede it?

Are you saying basic morality differs from one society to another? Can this be proven.

I fully understand the difference between opinion and fact. But for one to establish what is plausible requires explanation. Why can't you provide this?

Sighs...

I said most of the modern western laws are based on religous morals.

Common Law was established by Alfred the Great, who reigned from 871-899AD. He compiled the laws and customs of the nation into the "Liber Judicialis," based on the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule.

https://www.britishconstitutiongroup.com/british-constitution/common-law

Of course basic morality differs from society. E.g In the UK it's no crime to cheat on your wife but in other places adultery is a crime.

 

[miandadrules]

Sighs...

I said most of the modern western laws are based on religous morals.



https://www.britishconstitutiongroup.com/british-constitution/common-law

Of course basic morality differs from society. E.g In the UK it's no crime to cheat on your wife but in other places adultery is a crime.

That doesn't prove that religious laws weren't codification of established behavioural traits that were selected for. In just the same way that common law codified what were the religious customs.

It doesn't show what the ultimate gist of your argument being that our morality is defined by religion and God, without which we'd be immoral.

 

[miandadrules]

And I accept yours as well but do share your views on God and then provide the same evidence you are asking others, simples ! why are you so afraid

What particular view on God would you like to know?

 

[shaz619]

What particular view on God would you like to know?

His existence to begin with

 

[miandadrules]

His existence to begin with

I have no reason to believe he exists.

You prove his existence not disprove it.

I have no reason to believe something is there without proof. I can't disprove a Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't up there either.

The onus is to prove his existence and I haven't seen any.

 

[KingKhanWC]

That doesn't prove that religious laws weren't codification of established behavioural traits that were selected for. In just the same way that common law codified what were the religious customs.

It doesn't show what the ultimate gist of your argument being that our morality is defined by religion and God, without which we'd be immoral.

The reason why God told us what is right and wrong as he knows people will differ and make up their own minds.

Let me ask you a question for once.

Is adultery immoral or moral?

 

[miandadrules]

The reason why God told us what is right and wrong as he knows people will differ and make up their own minds.

Let me ask you a question for once.

Is adultery immoral or moral?

You say it is God who told us. But you haven't shown that these concepts were absent beforehand.

Yes, socially but not legally. I appreciate the distinction.

It's a betrayal of trust but it isn't the states right to interfere.

 

[shaz619]

I have no reason to believe he exists.

You prove his existence not disprove it.

I have no reason to believe something is there without proof. I can't disprove a Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't up there either.

The onus is to prove his existence and I haven't seen any.

I was expecting a more solid justification with similar evidence which you were asking of those who hold the opposing, I don't agree that the onus is on them; there should also be an onus on you, things are fair this way.

Am a neutral by the way am undecided on the matter, as the referee this battle can only be contested under fair rules. I can't make an exception for you. Both party's will protect themselves at all times and can't resort to illegal tactics.

If God does not exist I want evidence.

If God does exist I want evidence.

Also, in your own words you pointed out how it is important not to indulge in disputes when it comes to the beliefs of others because it is the root of violence; am disappointed that you've contributed to the divisions on these forums.

 

[Heisenberg]

I was expecting a more solid justification with similar evidence which you were asking of those who hold the opposing, I don't agree that the onus is on them; there should also be an onus on you, things are fair this way.

Am a neutral by the way am undecided on the matter, as the referee this battle can only be contested under fair rules. I can't make an exception for you. Both party's will protect themselves at all times and can't resort to illegal tactics.

If God does not exist I want evidence.

If God does exist I want evidence.

Also, in your own words you pointed out how it is important not to indulge in disputes when it comes to the beliefs of others because it is the root of violence; am disappointed that you've contributed to the divisions on these forums.

The onus is always on the ones who believe.

Can you disprove that Harry Potter is not really? Sounds like a pretty stupid question considering I am the one asking it, no? In all walks of life if somebody makes a statement they are the ones who are expected to back it up with proof.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You say it is God who told us. But you haven't shown that these concepts were absent beforehand.

Yes, socially but not legally. I appreciate the distinction.

It's a betrayal of trust but it isn't the states right to interfere.

If you try and answering a question instead of always asking questions, we can move ahead.

Again.

Is adultery immoral or moral in your opinion?

 

[KingKhanWC]

The onus is always on the ones who believe.

Can you disprove that Harry Potter is not really? Sounds like a pretty stupid question considering I am the one asking it, no? In all walks of life if somebody makes a statement they are the ones who are expected to back it up with proof.

If someone makes a statement God doesn't exist or they are an atheist, it's then up to them to prove it.

 

[Heisenberg]

If you try and answering a question instead of always asking questions, we can move ahead.

Again.

Is adultery immoral or moral in your opinion?

Yes and so is beating your wife.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes and so is beating your wife.

Adultery is to you but there are others who openly actively indulge in this act and both partners allow this. So who decides, you?

 

[Heisenberg]

If someone makes a statement God doesn't exist or they are an atheist, it's then up to them to prove it.

Fair enough. It's a difficult one.

Let's make it simpler. I say Harry Potter exists and don't back it up with proof. Would it then be a fair assessment to say that he doesn't exist? Seems fair to me but it's a difficult one. Can see your perspective

 

[miandadrules]

I was expecting a more solid justification with similar evidence which you were asking of those who hold the opposing, I don't agree that the onus is on them; there should also be an onus on you, things are fair this way.

Am a neutral by the way am undecided on the matter, as the referee this battle can only be contested under fair rules. I can't make an exception for you. Both party's will protect themselves at all times and can't resort to illegal tactics.

If God does not exist I want evidence.

If God does exist I want evidence.

Also, in your own words you pointed out how it is important not to indulge in disputes when it comes to the beliefs of others because it is the root of violence; am disappointed that you've contributed to the divisions on these forums.

Why don't you show that full post in its entirety. I clearly stated that no person has the right to define another. I always support a persons right to define themselves. This was in relation to Ahmadis being refused the right to define themselves.

The posters insisted that they had a right to define them but that nobody had the right to do so to them in return. Also, knowing that to do so would lead to violence against them. I pointed out the hypocrisy.

I have never once and never will I ever say that any debate or discussion on ANY issue should ever shut down. I think everything should be open to scrutiny.

As you have appointed yourself as a referee I would like a standardised model of proof. Which to my knowledge is the scientific one. Unless you can suggest one that is superior.

And according the best model we have you don't disprove something's existence you prove it.

 

[miandadrules]

Adultery is to you but there are others who openly actively indulge in this act and both partners allow this. So who decides, you?

What you described isn't morally wrong as all parties have consented. There is no betrayal of trust. And how many people indulge in this as a percentage of the population. I ask because I would like to know how you came to the conclusion of many?

 

[shaz619]

Why don't you show that full post in its entirety. I clearly stated that no person has the right to define another. I always support a persons right to define themselves. This was in relation to Ahmadis being refused the right to define themselves.

The posters insisted that they had a right to define them but that nobody had the right to do so to them in return. Also, knowing that to do so would lead to violence against them. I pointed out the hypocrisy.

I have never once and never will I ever say that any debate or discussion on ANY issue should ever shut down. I think everything should be open to scrutiny.

As you have appointed yourself as a referee I would like a standardised model of proof. Which to my knowledge is the scientific one. Unless you can suggest one that is superior.

And according the best model we have you don't disprove something's existence you prove it.

I will get back to you after I've had me dinner

 

[Heisenberg]

Adultery is to you but there are others who openly actively indulge in this act and both partners allow this. So who decides, you?

I don't see the problem if both are okay with it...

I mean the whole point of morality is to be good and if nobody is getting hurt physically or mentally by your actions then what does it matter?

 

[TM Riddle]

What did Jesus, Krishna and Buddha prophecize about Prophet Mohammed?

Never heard of any Prophecy from Krishna about Prophet Mohammed.

Krishna wasn't even a prophet to begin with.He was a famous tribal chief of Yadu tribe (They are mentioned in Rigveda) whose exploits over time became so famous that they turned into legends and later people started worshipping him as an avatar of Lord Vishnu.
Besides there are no prophets in Hinduism or any dharmic religions.Its solely an Abrahamic concept . [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]

 

[KingKhanWC]

I don't see the problem if both are okay with it...

I mean the whole point of morality is to be good and if nobody is getting hurt physically or mentally by your actions then what does it matter?

[MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]

Is incest also moral if both parties agree?

 

[miandadrules]

[MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]

Is incest also moral if both parties agree?

No, because your putting future generations at risk. It isn't just about the two parties that are affected.

 

[Heisenberg]

[MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]

Is incest also moral if both parties agree?

No. You are hurting your future generations with incest.

Let me ask you something. Is marrying your first cousin not incest?

 

[KingKhanWC]

No, because your putting future generations at risk. It isn't just about the two parties that are affected.

[MENTION=135579]Heisenberg[/MENTION]

How so?

 

[KingKhanWC]

No. You are hurting your future generations with incest.

Let me ask you something. Is marrying your first cousin not incest?

Definition doesn't include cousins but children, parents , siblings.

 

[TM Riddle]

[MENTION=135579]Heisenberg[/MENTION]

How so?

You can't be serious? Are you honestly claiming you don't know the side effects of incest?

 

[miandadrules]

[MENTION=135579]Heisenberg[/MENTION]

How so?

Are you serious?

 

[KingKhanWC]

You can't be serious? Are you honestly claiming you don't know the side effects of incest?

I want them to state it as I have a rebuttal lined up. Just relax and see. :sehwag

 

[KingKhanWC]

Are you serious?

Yes.

Are you saying there no preventative measures for what you are suggesting?

 

[Yossarian]

Similarly 1500 years ago Prophet Muhammad Pbuh Prophecized about Aeroplane in one of His Narrations when the World at that time did not even have a clue of a a bicycle invention down the line.



Than 1500 years ago He Pbuh Prophesized about ISIS. He Pbuh said :

Prophesied ISIS and the aeroplane?

Was this in reference to said aeroplanes being used to attack Isis by the 'Great Satan (شيطان بزرگ‎‎; Shaytân-e Bozorg)" and the "Lesser Satan"?

 

[Heisenberg]

Definition doesn't include cousins but children, parents , siblings.

Alright let's say it is not. Are first cousin marriages moral?

 

[Heisenberg]

I want them to state it as I have a rebuttal lined up. Just relax and see. :sehwag

Haha get on with it

 

[miandadrules]

Yes.

Are you saying there no preventative measures for what you are suggesting?

There are.

And if people indulge in it and don't procreate then eventually that trait will be selected out.

If it's their decision, they are free to do what they wish provided only they are affected.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Alright let's say it is not. Are first cousin marriages moral?

It's not incest and they are there is nothing immoral about it. I take my morals from my religion and it's allowed. Of course this doesn't mean it's recommended and yes there can be issues with children but this is more likely if this practice is continued for generations. This is going off topic but you can read my views on this subject on a thread related to this.

 

[TM Riddle]

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] Pushpak Vimana is mentioned in Ramayana which was written around 3 thousand years ago .It was the ancient version of a chartered plane used by Lord Ram and Sita along with their associates to fly them direct from SL to Ayodhya
These things are meant to be taken with a pinch of salt as anyone can predict them with ease.Honestly how hard is it for someone to claim that in future there would be this transportation device which would let people to fly in air.For instance suppose in future we are somehow able to create a time machine , would that mean HG Wells was actually making a divine prophesy when he wrote his famous novel?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Prophesied ISIS and the aeroplane?

Was this in reference to said aeroplanes being used to attack Isis by the 'Great Satan (شيطان بزرگ‎‎; Shaytân-e Bozorg)" and the "Lesser Satan"?

No there was no relation between the two.


Some people await a " flying ***** " ie a flying donkey in whose stomach people will travel and the flying ***** will blow smoke and will travel at a high speed where at one point its one foot will be in land while the other will be in water.

 

[Heisenberg]

There are.

And if people indulge in it and don't procreate then eventually that trait will be selected out.

If it's their decision, they are free to do what they wish provided only they are affected.

I think incest only happens to keep bloodlines 'pure' no?

 

[KingKhanWC]

There are.

And if people indulge in it and don't procreate then eventually that trait will be selected out.

If it's their decision, they are free to do what they wish provided only they are affected.

So you believe Inscest can be morally fine.

Thank you .

This is why we take our morals from God and you don't .