‘No larger conspiracy behind Gujarat riots’: SC rejects Zakia Jafri plea against clean chit to Modi

[Nikhil_cric]

They say leaders are a reflection of their society, Most pakistanis are internally corrupt, liars, greedy, etc just like their leader, Most Indians are hindu nationalist just like their leader.

Fail only 31% of the voters voted for the BJP in the election. How does that show that majority of the people are pro Hindu nationalism when even backward castes and Muslims have voted for the BJP?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Fail only 31% of the voters voted for the BJP in the election. How does that show that majority of the people are pro Hindu nationalism when even backward castes and Muslims have voted for the BJP?

Your point is right but % of votes is never a yardstick.

Even after Indira Gandhi died and there was a strong sympathy wave, I think Congress only got 48% of the votes and got 400+ Lok Sabha seats.

So relatively BJP did great.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Your point is right but % of votes is never a yardstick.

Even after Indira Gandhi died and there was a strong sympathy wave, I think Congress only got 48% of the votes and got 400+ Lok Sabha seats.

So relatively BJP did great.

Of course they did but the fact is the majority of Indians are not pro Hindu nationalism as speed seems to be suggesting. If 50 % of the voters or more did vote for the bjp I would have probably agreed with him.the fact that there was no modi wave in either Orissa or TN is proof of what I said.

 

[tempus123]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J27pWYGTJ4

 

[Laparwah]

Indian Muslim's in particular could be in a lot of trouble.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/narendra-modi-man-masses

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The BJP was founded as the political wing of the RSS and most senior BJP figures have an RSS background, holding posts in both organisations. The RSS and the BJP both believe, as the centrepiece of their ideology, that India is in essence a Hindu nation and that minorities, especially Muslims, may live in India only if they acknowledge this.

Madhav Golwalkar, the early RSS leader still known simply as “the Guru”, was the man who formulated the outlines of the RSS world-view and looked directly to the Nazi thinkers of 1930s Germany. He took particular inspiration from Hitler’s treatment of German religious minorities. “To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging of its Semitic Race, the Jews,” Golwalkar wrote admiringly in 1938.

“Race pride at its highest has been manifested there. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures having differences going to the root to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by . . . The foreign races in Hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no ideas but those of glorification of the Hindu race and culture . . . or may stay in the country wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment – not even citizen’s rights.”

We heard all this before when BJP was last elected. What makes anyone think it is going to be any different this time round?

 

[Laparwah]

We heard all this before when BJP was last elected. What makes anyone think it is going to be any different this time round?

Difference is MODI!! The man is full of hate!! Previous BJP PM's were not murderers like him.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Difference is MODI!! The man is full of hate!! Previous BJP PM's were not murderers like him.

Yes they were, only then there wasn't as much focus on them because 9/11 hadn't happened.

 

[tempus123]

Difference is MODI!! The man is full of hate!! Previous BJP PM's were not murderers like him.

Why didn't he apply it in Gujarat for the last 10 years ? It's too early to pass judgments on him. I guess you will find it hard to digest if after 2 years or so, muslims in India prosper.

 

[Laparwah]

Yes they were, only then there wasn't as much focus on them because 9/11 hadn't happened.

No I don't think so. Modi is a different breed altogether, previous ones did not kill openly then compare the victim's to dead puppy's. He probably did also make anti-Pak statements to win voters as well.

 

[Haripotter]

Sreekumar whom your mentioning in your post is a froad who spread rumours the ISRO scientist who brought recognisition to india was involved in trading secrets to foriegn countries... Later it was found that the scientist was innocent....

Sanjeev bhatt who gave statement that he was there at a controversial meeting is funded by congress and his wife is even running elections on congress ticket ..

So we must stop falling into paid media n obssessed politicians and start believing in our judiciary which prosecuted over 200 rioters of 2002 ....

Accept the fact that NARENDRA MODI is our PRIME MINISTER

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No I don't think so. Modi is a different breed altogether, previous ones did not kill openly then compare the victim's to dead puppy's. He probably did also make anti-Pak statements to win voters as well.

Vajpayee was one of those who led the march to demolish the Babri Masjid and there were thousands that died in the riots that followed. Same face, different mask.

 

[Vayuu]

Difference is MODI!! The man is full of hate!! Previous BJP PM's were not murderers like him.

Your user name perfectly matches with ur posts

sent from dil se

 

[tempus123]

No I don't think so. Modi is a different breed altogether, previous ones did not kill openly then compare the victim's to dead puppy's. He probably did also make anti-Pak statements to win voters as well.

I think you are a victim of comprehension fail (in case of puppy remark) and grossly misinformed in case of anti-pakistan comments. The fact that you used "probably" won't let you get away with spreading total wrong info.

 

[Laparwah]

I think you are a victim of comprehension fail (in case of puppy remark) and grossly misinformed in case of anti-pakistan comments. The fact that you used "probably" won't let you get away with spreading total wrong info.

Well there were many Indian's who also took up the "puppy" comment! I did not relate these comments to his anti-Pakistani remarks whatsoever.

 

[Laparwah]

Your user name perfectly matches with ur posts

sent from dil se

I am not here to be famous or for your approval! The only thing worse then being noticed is not being noticed! As for my username I am very carefree.

 

[Laparwah]

Vajpayee was one of those who led the march to demolish the Babri Masjid and there were thousands that died in the riots that followed. Same face, different mask.

The destruction of Babri did not lead to thousands of people being slaughtered. Vaj was no saint either, Modi is a murderer.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The destruction of Babri did not lead to thousands of people being slaughtered. Vaj was no saint either, Modi is a murderer.

There were at least 2000 deaths as a result of the Babri Masjid demolition in India. How would you rather we describe this?

 

[tempus123]

Well there were many Indian's who also took up the "puppy" comment! I did not relate these comments to his anti-Pakistani remarks whatsoever.

1. Who said Indians can't be victims of comprehension fail. Plus Indian media is ready to hype each and every comment of Modi in the negative light. Probably he could have used a better metaphor, but certainly didn't mean what people attributed to him. He is too clever a politician to use such tricks which will only bring disrepute to him. Plus better read his entire comment and not just the word "puppy".

2. During election campaign, he didn't say anti-pakistan comments much.. there were enough issues to trash Congress.

 

[tempus123]

There were at least 2000 deaths as a result of the Babri Masjid demolition in India. How would you rather we describe this?

Riots can happen even without such demolition. In India it doesn't take much to start riots. Though I agree they don't spread as much if there is not a "big" incident like the demolition.

PS: I agree that Babri mosque had to go. I would have preferred it happen through a court order than public demolition.

 

[Laparwah]

There were at least 2000 deaths as a result of the Babri Masjid demolition in India. How would you rather we describe this?

I don't think Vajpayee orchestrated those deaths like Modi did in Gujarat. They were the after effects of Babri's demolition, there is a clear difference.

 

[Laparwah]

1. Who said Indians can't be victims of comprehension fail. Plus Indian media is ready to hype each and every comment of Modi in the negative light. Probably he could have used a better metaphor, but certainly didn't mean what people attributed to him. He is too clever a politician to use such tricks which will only bring disrepute to him. Plus better read his entire comment and not just the word "puppy".

2. During election campaign, he didn't say anti-pakistan comments much.. there were enough issues to trash Congress.

I certainly saw Modi male many anti-Pak comments, many more then NS did during the Pak election. The puppy comment by Modi was a deliberate one as far as I am concerned. He knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[tempus123]

I certainly saw Modi male many anti-Pak comments, many more then NS did during the Pak election. The puppy comment by Modi was a deliberate one as far as I am concerned. He knew exactly what he was doing.

1. Let me know 2 or 3 anti-pak comments he made during election campaign in the last 6 months.
2. As far as you are concerned ? You can consider him murderer but that doesn't make it a fact.

 

[Laparwah]

1. Let me know 2 or 3 anti-pak comments he made during election campaign in the last 6 months.
2. As far as you are concerned ? You can consider him murderer but that doesn't make it a fact.

I have heard witness reports of how the kersewaks were in touch with Modi by phone during the infamous massacre. Many people including your compatriot's hold him responsible...my views are as invalid or valid as yours. I witnessed anti-Pak comments by Modi on NDTV during the campaign, that's partly why he got the job.

 

[tempus123]

I have heard witness reports of how the kersewaks were in touch with Modi by phone during the infamous massacre. Many people including your compatriot's hold him responsible...my views are as invalid or valid as yours. I witnessed anti-Pak comments by Modi on NDTV during the campaign, that's partly why he got the job.

See, as a CM he may have made anti-pak comments, but as the PM candidate of BJP, he mainly kept his election campaign focused entirely on :

1. Development
2. Good governance
3. Targeting Congress dynastic culture
4. Bangladeshi immigrants/cow slaughter
5. His image as a tea-seller / later lower caste.

I don't recall any anti-Pak comments highlighting. Also, it's a misconception that Anti-Pak comments win hearts of Indian people at least in this election. Even Ram mandir wasn't the top priority issue, and hence he refrained from making any reference to it.

He also specially made sure not to make any anti-muslim comments. There is an automatic dignity attached when one becomes PM candidate you know, so the tone changes. It actually hurts BJP in many places in India since it's seen as a regressive/backward party which kept talking of old issues (Hindu pride etc.) People voted for Modi because he talked development, not because he promised to restore Hindu pride (he didn't say anything like that).

He also stopped the anti-muslim comments made by some of his partymen (though none of the top leaders made any such comment). People who want to rise in their party rank quicky want to grab attention by making such comments.

About the karsevaks being on phone with Modi.. well it's all hearsay. No one is a fool who will give message on phone to rioters if he was involved. People will hold him responsible for various reasons.

 

[tempus123]

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/m...s-our-collective-ethical-failure-1313613.html

In a larger sense, well beyond the criminality of their actions, the failing that allowed Rajiv Gandhi or allows a Narendra Modi and an Akhilesh Yadav to survive in office despite their failure to do their duty when it mattered is a reflection of the kind of society we have become. The idea of a duty that we embody in our profession, whatever that profession may be, is lost to us. The idea of dharma invoked by Vajpayee is not an idea we can any longer make any sense of, unless the support for the Aam Aadmi Party in part embodies a desire for a more ethical order.

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/politics/m...l-failure-1313613.html?utm_source=ref_article

 

[Laparwah]

See, as a CM he may have made anti-pak comments, but as the PM candidate of BJP, he mainly kept his election campaign focused entirely on :

1. Development
2. Good governance
3. Targeting Congress dynastic culture
4. Bangladeshi immigrants/cow slaughter
5. His image as a tea-seller / later lower caste.

I don't recall any anti-Pak comments highlighting. Also, it's a misconception that Anti-Pak comments win hearts of Indian people at least in this election. Even Ram mandir wasn't the top priority issue, and hence he refrained from making any reference to it.

He also specially made sure not to make any anti-muslim comments. There is an automatic dignity attached when one becomes PM candidate you know, so the tone changes. It actually hurts BJP in many places in India since it's seen as a regressive/backward party which kept talking of old issues (Hindu pride etc.) People voted for Modi because he talked development, not because he promised to restore Hindu pride (he didn't say anything like that).

He also stopped the anti-muslim comments made by some of his partymen (though none of the top leaders made any such comment). People who want to rise in their party rank quicky want to grab attention by making such comments.

About the karsevaks being on phone with Modi.. well it's all hearsay. No one is a fool who will give message on phone to rioters if he was involved. People will hold him responsible for various reasons.

It's not a misconception that the Pak policy played an important role in India electing Modi as it's next PM...let's not kid ourselves but be sensible. Now, on the contrary India was not even mentioned during the Pak elections, here priorities were the usual ones like education, poverty and eradicating corruption. In electing Modi Indian's have proved that they are fanatics where as Pakistanis have always rejected overtly religious political parties. After Gujarat Modi is in no position to immediately make anti-Muslim comments however a leopard never changes it's spots. I do believe that sooner or later he will again show his fangs, the construction of Ram Mandir that he has promised could be what leads to chaos again.

From what I know Modi has promised to ban cow slaughter amongst other anti-Muslim practises, don't tell me this is aimed at the Sikhs or Christians! Just recently one of his members referred to all Muslim's as terrorists, I didn't see Modi do anything about that. I am sure deep down somewhere he is a decent man albeit seems to be a very frustrated one not knowing what direction to take. It must be hard living with the blood of thousands of innocent people on you hands, his conscience will be his greatest enemy. "Hearsay"??....do you expect recorded messages to prove that he was involved!!?

 

[tempus123]

I found this piece on the internet written by a Muslim gentleman. I fully agree with it:
The results are out and the mandate given to Modi is clear and unequivocal. We have to respect this mandate. The lesson that Muslims ought to have learnt a long time back is that there can be a counter-polarisation of votes too. For a long time unscrupulous parties have capitalised on the Muslim vote bank through communal polarisation. Muslims have consistently been falling a prey to these machinations little realising that a time would come when counter-polarisation could also take place and render the Muslim vote irrelevant. Muslims have been fighting more over symbolic and emotional issues rather than substantive rights, thus providing grist to the anti-Muslim propaganda machinery that Muslims are being appeased at the cost of the majority community. Though the community failed to gain substantially in terms of economic improvement, job opportunities or educational advancement, the picture that was projected was that the successive so-called secular governments were pampering the Muslims. This lead to a rising angst among the more gullible in the majority community causing the counter-polarisation.
Having said that, let us also not forget that a large majority of those who have voted for Modi have not done so with any communal agenda in mind. The development plank has been the motivating factor coupled with a quest for strong, decisive leadership. Modi, as a strong orator and no-nonsense leader stood head and shoulders above a bumbling Rahul Gandhi and an ineffective Manmohan Singh. Rhetoric held the sway and people were mesmerised with the image of the emerging messiah, the man who would carry India’s development and progress on his 56” chest. The young voters were swayed by the development mantra and the prospect of a corruption free administration. Therefore, it would be an injustice to the people of India to believe that they voted for a communal agenda.
Do Muslims really have to fear a Modi dispensation? Time alone will tell. No doubt there will be pockets of discrimination maybe even physical attacks. What indeed has to be feared is any covert attempts that would be made to subvert the democratic and secular fabric of the country. The progressive intellectual section of Indian society has to be ever-vigilant against any such attempts and thwart the same at the threshold. Muslims can stop expecting the pampering and symbolism of the so-called secular establishment and start focussing more on securing substantial rights on the economic and educational front rather than crying hoarse over inconsequential emotional issues. It is also time for a more erudite and progressive leadership to emerge within the Muslim community.
Being an optimist, I see a turning point in Indian Muslim history and would like to believe that this is an opportunity for the Indian Muslims to focus more on their long-term social and economic development and shed the image of an anachronistic community high on its emotional quotient and stuck in a time warp. As it is said “Zinda hota hai Islam Karbala ke baad” or something to that effect.

 

[tempus123]

It's not a misconception that the Pak policy played an important role in India electing Modi as it's next PM...let's not kid ourselves but be sensible. Now, on the contrary India was not even mentioned during the Pak elections, here priorities were the usual ones like education, poverty and eradicating corruption. In electing Modi Indian's have proved that they are fanatics where as Pakistanis have always rejected overtly religious political parties. After Gujarat Modi is in no position to immediately make anti-Muslim comments however a leopard never changes it's spots. I do believe that sooner or later he will again show his fangs, the construction of Ram Mandir that he has promised could be what leads to chaos again.

From what I know Modi has promised to ban cow slaughter amongst other anti-Muslim practises, don't tell me this is aimed at the Sikhs or Christians! Just recently one of his members referred to all Muslim's as terrorists, I didn't see Modi do anything about that. I am sure deep down somewhere he is a decent man albeit seems to be a very frustrated one not knowing what direction to take. It must be hard living with the blood of thousands of innocent people on you hands, his conscience will be his greatest enemy. "Hearsay"??....do you expect recorded messages to prove that he was involved!!?

Name the member who called "all muslims are terrorists", is Modi responsible for any comment made by any BJP member/supporter ?

 

[tempus123]

An old news but still worth posting again :

http://archive.indianexpress.com/ne...to-28-yrs-in-jail-babu-bajrangi-life/995802/0
"Communal riots are like cancer on constitutional secularism and incident that happened in Naroda Patiya was a black chapter in the history of the Indian constitution," the judge observed.

"Acts of communal violence was brutal, inhuman and shameful, it was a clear incident of human rights violation as 97 people were killed brutally within the day which included helpless women, children aged persons and the climax of this inhuman and brutal act of violence was reflected in murder of an infant who was 20 days old," the court said highlighting the enormity of the crime.

Social activist Teesta Setalvad, who has taken up the case of the post-Godhra riots victims in Gujarat, said they are "completely satisfied" with the manner in which the court has given "exemplary punishment".

"It is the first time that a politician's involvement in communal violence has been recognised," she said.

Judge Yagnik also ordered the Gujarat government to pay a compensation of Rs five lakh to a victim of gangrape but did not charge anybody for the offence for want of evidence.

It rejected the defence's argument that communal violence in Naroda Patiya was a reaction to Godhra train burning incident.

"This was a pre-planned conspiracy and it cannot be mitigated just by saying that it was a reaction of Godhra train burning incident," it said.

Describing Kodnani as the "kingpin" of the riots, the court said she led the mob and incited it for violence.

Kodnani, who was an MLA at the time of the riots, was made minister of state for women and child development in 2007 but had to resign after she was arrested in March 2009.

 

[Laparwah]

Name the member who called "all muslims are terrorists", is Modi responsible for any comment made by any BJP member/supporter ?

You expect me to remember names seen on NDTV?? Modi is as responsible for his team as any Cricket captain is for the actions of his players.

 

[tempus123]

You expect me to remember names seen on NDTV?? Modi is as responsible for his team as any Cricket captain is for the actions of his players.

You mean any BJP spokesperson said that "all muslims are terrorists" and that too on national TV ? I am sure you agree you need to at least name the person who said it before we accept your point.

 

[tempus123]

The people who are saying Modi would stand no chance if the opposition choice was Indira Gandhi or Vajpayee are underestimating Modi's capabilities.

1. There is very little to choose b/w Modi and Indira, both being charismatic and firm nationalists, keeping India's interest first. But I feel, Indira allowed Sanjay to run the Govt. and also the corruption was rampant in her Govt. The harshest critic of Modi will not accuse him of personal corruption in Gujarat Govt.

2. As for Vajpayee, he was as good or probably a better public speaker than Modi, but even he could not win hopes of so many people, plus I feel he was soft and didn't lead with firm hand. It was widely believed he could not run the things in his own party, like could not dismiss Modi after 2002 despite apparently wanting to do so.

I have a feeling if Modi keeps true to his path, he may turn out to be the best prime minister India has ever had..

 

[Ambi]

Low conviction rate in Gujarat riot cases

AHMEDABAD: Twelve years after the Gujarat riots, a study by Stanford Law School has concluded that the conviction rate in riot cases is less than 10%. If there were 863 cases that reached trials, there were convictions in only 83 cases till 2012 — which comes to 9.63%. This is way below 18.5% convictions in riot cases till date across India - 7,281 out of 39,415

This analysis forms part of a 138-page report titled "When Justice Becomes the Victim: The Quest for Justice After the 2002 Violence in Gujarat," brought out by the International Human Rights and Conflict Resolution Clinic of Stanford Law School, US. The report, which was released on Thursday, analyzed the judicial response to the 2002 post-Godhra violence.

The report emphasized on the need for a victim-friendly judicial process for riot trials. To substantiate this, the report has cited Best Bakery and Bilkis Bano cases where the trials were transferred outside the state by the Supreme Court in 2004.

On the other hand, the report has praised the local judiciary in the Naroda Patia massacre conviction where the approach had been victim friendly.

The report claims that the SC's decision to transfer trials outside state cannot be the solution to thousands of cases arising out of communal violence. The report has also pointed out that in the nine major post-Godhra riot cases, the SC continued to be the ultimate guarantor of justice.

The Stanford report has observed that, "A judicial system that relies exclusively on the Indian Supreme Court as a guarantor of judicial integrity, rather than the local judiciary, is a fragile one. To be truly sustainable, the reform process must promote institutional reform at local level in Gujarat."

The report recommends that Gujarat's judicial authorities should ensure that public prosecutors in the state should not have political affiliations. The researcher also recommends setting up an independent commission to analyze the breakdown of intelligence and law enforcement agencies, disciplinary action against cops for not registering proper FIR, technology upgradation in lodging complaints, educating people to move court in case police gives them cold shoulder.

 

[tempus123]

Low conviction rate in Gujarat riot cases

AHMEDABAD: Twelve years after the Gujarat riots, a study by Stanford Law School has concluded that the conviction rate in riot cases is less than 10%. If there were 863 cases that reached trials, there were convictions in only 83 cases till 2012 — which comes to 9.63%. This is way below 18.5% convictions in riot cases till date across India - 7,281 out of 39,415

This analysis forms part of a 138-page report titled "When Justice Becomes the Victim: The Quest for Justice After the 2002 Violence in Gujarat," brought out by the International Human Rights and Conflict Resolution Clinic of Stanford Law School, US. The report, which was released on Thursday, analyzed the judicial response to the 2002 post-Godhra violence.

The report emphasized on the need for a victim-friendly judicial process for riot trials. To substantiate this, the report has cited Best Bakery and Bilkis Bano cases where the trials were transferred outside the state by the Supreme Court in 2004.

On the other hand, the report has praised the local judiciary in the Naroda Patia massacre conviction where the approach had been victim friendly.

The report claims that the SC's decision to transfer trials outside state cannot be the solution to thousands of cases arising out of communal violence. The report has also pointed out that in the nine major post-Godhra riot cases, the SC continued to be the ultimate guarantor of justice.

The Stanford report has observed that, "A judicial system that relies exclusively on the Indian Supreme Court as a guarantor of judicial integrity, rather than the local judiciary, is a fragile one. To be truly sustainable, the reform process must promote institutional reform at local level in Gujarat."

The report recommends that Gujarat's judicial authorities should ensure that public prosecutors in the state should not have political affiliations. The researcher also recommends setting up an independent commission to analyze the breakdown of intelligence and law enforcement agencies, disciplinary action against cops for not registering proper FIR, technology upgradation in lodging complaints, educating people to move court in case police gives them cold shoulder.

The fact that it has been 12 years and riot victims are still waiting for justice speaks ill of our judicial system.

VHP appointed lawyers to defend some of them, and they are not taking fees for saving the "heroes" .

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

[MENTION=93843]Ambi[/MENTION] - The Gujarat riot trial was a shambolic stuff.

Even SIT report mentioned so many VHP and co public prosecutors which is pretty damaging evidence of how shambolic it is.

Modi may very well be a good PM but those who use the argument that Modi is not convicted so he must be innocent must accept that Hafeez Saeed is innocent because he was let off by the Lahore High Court.

Haha...

There was one guy in this forum who said poor Modi was framed.

)

 

[tempus123]

[MENTION=93843]Ambi[/MENTION] - The Gujarat riot trial was a shambolic stuff.

Even SIT report mentioned so many VHP and co public prosecutors which is pretty damaging evidence of how shambolic it is.

Modi may very well be a good PM but those who use the argument that Modi is not convicted so he must be innocent must accept that Hafeez Saeed is innocent because he was let off by the Lahore High Court.

Haha...

There was one guy in this forum who said poor Modi was framed.

)

Are you implying Supreme Court and it's SIT are deliberately letting Modi off the hook ? Why would they do so ?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

An old news but still worth posting again :

http://archive.indianexpress.com/ne...to-28-yrs-in-jail-babu-bajrangi-life/995802/0
"Communal riots are like cancer on constitutional secularism and incident that happened in Naroda Patiya was a black chapter in the history of the Indian constitution," the judge observed.

"Acts of communal violence was brutal, inhuman and shameful, it was a clear incident of human rights violation as 97 people were killed brutally within the day which included helpless women, children aged persons and the climax of this inhuman and brutal act of violence was reflected in murder of an infant who was 20 days old," the court said highlighting the enormity of the crime.

Social activist Teesta Setalvad, who has taken up the case of the post-Godhra riots victims in Gujarat, said they are "completely satisfied" with the manner in which the court has given "exemplary punishment".

"It is the first time that a politician's involvement in communal violence has been recognised," she said.

Judge Yagnik also ordered the Gujarat government to pay a compensation of Rs five lakh to a victim of gangrape but did not charge anybody for the offence for want of evidence.

It rejected the defence's argument that communal violence in Naroda Patiya was a reaction to Godhra train burning incident.

"This was a pre-planned conspiracy and it cannot be mitigated just by saying that it was a reaction of Godhra train burning incident," it said.

Describing Kodnani as the "kingpin" of the riots, the court said she led the mob and incited it for violence.

Kodnani, who was an MLA at the time of the riots, was made minister of state for women and child development in 2007 but had to resign after she was arrested in March 2009.

Yep the article tells us all.

Maya Kodnani an MLA in a government run by an authoritarian did all this stuff, then lied to Modi about her role in this stuff which Modi believed and then made her a minister several years later and when she was convicted, Modi felt cheated. Imagine his disappointment.

No role of Modi here.

No matter what angle you take, it leads to only one destination.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Are you implying Supreme Court and it's SIT are deliberately letting Modi off the hook ? Why would they do so ?

Please read all my arguments here in this thread. Page 1-3.

Even SIT mentioned that it let off Modi ONLY BECAUSE of lack of prosecutable evidence.

Not because they found him to be an angel.

This a fact.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Check the red marked line in the article you mentioned.

Just because the judge couldn't charge anyone for rape (for lack of perfect evidence) does not in any way prove that the rape did not happen.

 

[battler]

Not all supreme court judges are honest, believe me when I say that I'm not shooting arrows in the dark.

 

[tempus123]

Yep the article tells us all.

Maya Kodnani an MLA in a government run by an authoritarian did all this stuff, then lied to Modi about her role in this stuff which Modi believed and then made her a minister several years later and when she was convicted, Modi felt cheated. Imagine his disappointment.

No role of Modi here.

No matter what angle you take, it leads to only one destination.

On this particular (and only this particular) issue, I talked at length with some of my Gujarati friends, and they said Modi was misled and misinformed about Kodnani.

See, when something like this happens, there are a lot of false allegations also flying around. So probably, Modi didn't see her as a culprit (in the latest interview, he said she had a right as a citizen to wait for the verdict on appeal and strictly denied that he kept her in cabinet even when a case was registered against her).

There are a number of cabinet ministers in his Gujarat Govt. who were accused of murder and then later acquitted by Court (Bokharia for example), so he might have given people benefit of doubt considering he himself was subject to "false" allegations (at least in his own views).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

On this particular (and only this particular) issue, I talked at length with some of my Gujarati friends, and they said Modi was misled and misinformed about Kodnani.

See, when something like this happens, there are a lot of false allegations also flying around. So probably, Modi didn't see her as a culprit (in the latest interview, he said she had a right as a citizen to wait for the appeal).

There are a number of cabinet ministers in his Gujarat Govt. who were accused of murder and then later acquitted by Court (Bokharia for example), so he might have given people benefit of doubt considering he himself was subject to "false" allegations (at least in his own views).

Maya Kodnani is not the FULCRUM of the argument against Modi.

Its one of the many many pillars.

1. So phone records were destroyed for fun.
2. Transfer of only CERTAIN police officers were for fun.
3. Haren Pandya death was a pure coincidence
4. VHP public prosecutors was for fun

Maya is one of the many many factors that make a strong case aganst Modi.

And no, there is NO WAY in politics that Modi could not have known whether she was guilty or not.

Modi termed this situation serious enough to call the army immediately. He was accused of delaying the logistic support to them till the 3rd day (I mention the sources somewhere in this thread).

In such a serious situation, an MLA will just go on a killing spree and Modi would not know about it.

An authoritative leader who runs every aspect of his government with iron fist. One who keeps a close watch on his ministers and their actions.

Deductive logic and facts state otherwise.

 

[battler]

One thing that really irks me though is why are no telephone records available on the 1st day of riots i.e 27th february.

 

[tempus123]

Please read all my arguments here in this thread. Page 1-3.

Even SIT mentioned that it let off Modi ONLY BECAUSE of lack of prosecutable evidence.

Not because they found him to be an angel.

This a fact.

Why do you assume I jumped to the end without reading the whole discussion and your arguments along with the links you mentioned?

But, did SIT mention it specifically that it is letting off MODI because of lack of evidence, (but it feels he is guilty or that effect) ?

 

[battler]

Maya Kodnani is not the FULCRUM of the argument against Modi.

Its one of the many many pillars.

1. So phone records were destroyed for fun.
2. Transfer of only CERTAIN police officers were for fun.
3. Haren Pandya death was a pure coincidence
4. VHP public prosecutors was for fun

Maya is one of the many many factors that make a strong case aganst Modi.

And no, there is NO WAY in politics that Modi could not have known whether she was guilty or not.

Modi termed this situation serious enough to call the army immediately. He was accused of delaying the logistic support to them till the 3rd day (I mention the sources somewhere in this thread).

In such a serious situation, an MLA will just go on a killing spree and Modi would not know about it.

An authoritative leader who runs every aspect of his government with iron fist. One who keeps a close watch on his ministers and their actions.

Deductive logic and facts state otherwise.

Modi said he called police forces from other states from the second day of riots itself i.e 28th feb
But since all three neighbouring states were ruled by congress none came for help.
Then he decided to call army, who were delayed due to lack of logistical support.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I think it was the phone records collected illegally by a police officer that nailed Maya Kodnani.

She was nailed based on 2 aspects:

1. testimony
2. Phone records showing her place at the time she was accused in the act

I have the source somewhere in this thread.

Still this Nanavati Commissio hasn't competed their report. A report that they were assigned in 2002. They have got 21 extensions and they have to submit it this June I think.

 

[tempus123]

Maya Kodnani is not the FULCRUM of the argument against Modi.

Its one of the many many pillars.

1. So phone records were destroyed for fun.
2. Transfer of only CERTAIN police officers were for fun.
3. Haren Pandya death was a pure coincidence
4. VHP public prosecutors was for fun

Maya is one of the many many factors that make a strong case aganst Modi.

And no, there is NO WAY in politics that Modi could not have known whether she was guilty or not.

Modi termed this situation serious enough to call the army immediately. He was accused of delaying the logistic support to them till the 3rd day (I mention the sources somewhere in this thread).

In such a serious situation, an MLA will just go on a killing spree and Modi would not know about it.

An authoritative leader who runs every aspect of his government with iron fist. One who keeps a close watch on his ministers and their actions.

Deductive logic and facts state otherwise.

Ohh.. you have a habit of putting words in others mouth. When I am clearly emphasizing that "this particular issue" why are you assuming that I am denying all the evidence you put forth ?

 

[battler]

SIF, see the video I posted in the temple demolition thread.
Why doesn't digvijay singh rebutt mosi if modi is speaking lies?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ohh.. you have a habit of putting words in others mouth. When I am clearly emphasizing that "this particular issue" why are you assuming that I am denying all the evidence you put forth ?

No bud I am not putting words in your mouth.

Sorry for my aggressive tone,. Didn't mean to come out that way.

I am saying even that "particular issue" is dodgy as hell.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

SIF, see the video I posted in the temple demolition thread.
Why doesn't digvijay singh rebutt mosi if modi is speaking lies?

What happened there?

 

[tempus123]

SIF, see the video I posted in the temple demolition thread.
Why doesn't digvijay singh rebutt mosi if modi is speaking lies?

Congress didn't want to help.. but that is a separate issue.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

With all being said, yesterday I was telling my Dad my hopes are pinned with Modi (leaving aside his past).

I am expecting good things from him/

If he flops, India would be in a very bad shape.

My views against Modi's 2002 is different form my hopes for Modi (no I was never a staunch supporter but I acknowledge the fact that he can change our nation if he wishes to cos he has the mandate).

 

[tempus123]

No bud I am not putting words in your mouth.

Sorry for my aggressive tone,. Didn't mean to come out that way.

I am saying even that "particular issue" is dodgy as hell.

I am making no claim of Modi being aware or not aware of Kodnani. I just said some of my Gujarati friends claim he was misled.

BTW, it's perfectly possible that one is not "sure" of the involvement of some minister.

 

[tempus123]

What happened there?

MP/Rajasthan didn't send the police force asked for help by Modi.

 

[battler]

What happened there?

Modi said he asked for police force help from neighbouring states that is maharashtra, M.P. and Rajasthan the very next day i.e 28th feb but since all three were congress ruled states they refused to send police forces.
Digvijay doesn't counter modi on that.

 

[tempus123]

With all being said, yesterday I was telling my Dad my hopes are pinned with Modi (leaving aside his past).

I am expecting good things from him/

If he flops, India would be in a very bad shape.

My views against Modi's 2002 is different form my hopes for Modi (no I was never a staunch supporter but I acknowledge the fact that he can change our nation if he wishes to cos he has the mandate).

It reminds me of a discussion I had with one of my friends about KPS Gill when he was accused of molesting/harassing a lady.

He said, Gill was a hero who did so much for the country, he should be shown mercy and should not be subjected to punishment for a minor crime like slapping the woman's bottom.

He said "Think of the bigger picture, what message are we sending to the heroes who end terrorism by treating them like this".

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Modi said he asked for police force help from neighbouring states that is maharashtra, M.P. and Rajasthan the very next day i.e 28th feb but since all three were congress ruled states they refused to send police forces.
Digvijay doesn't counter modi on that.

I don't know about it.

But it could be possible. Congress is not an angel too. So Digvijay may have no answers for this question where his party is indirectly questioned.

But here's what SIT report says:

In a positive note, given the inflamed situation in the state, SIT Chairman Raghavan records that the state government had alerted army authorities on a possible need for their assistance on 27 February itself. Modi had also called Union Home Minister LK Advani about the deteriorating law and order situation. This was followed by a fax message on 28 February 2002 to the Centre. Army columns started arriving in Ahmedabad during the intervening night of 28 February-1 March. Raghavan concludes that “it is clearly established that there was no slackness on the part of the state government in summoning the army.”

However, once the army had arrived, it needed logistic support. The Modi administration could arrange all of this only by 2.30 pm on the afternoon of 1 March. At Godhra, this took up to the afternoon of 2 March. By then, a lot of the horror had already struck. The SIT report records this slackness in deploying the army, but has chosen not to comment on it.

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne120211coverstory.asp

Modi called upon the army on 27th itself. This is a fact too. Its also alleged that he had given people 3 days to do whatever they want after which he has to control the situation. Controlling the situation is tough so he needed all the help he can.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It reminds me of a discussion I had with one of my friends about KPS Gill when he was accused of molesting/harassing a lady.

He said, Gill was a hero who did so much for the country, he should be shown mercy and should not be subjected for a crime like slapping the woman's bottom.

Haha...

Its complex isn't it?

I just separate 2 issues and look at it differently.

What to do? What options do we have?

 

[battler]

I don't know about it.

But it could be possible. Congress is not an angel too. So Digvijay may have no answers for this question where his party is indirectly questioned.

But here's what SIT report says:

In a positive note, given the inflamed situation in the state, SIT Chairman Raghavan records that the state government had alerted army authorities on a possible need for their assistance on 27 February itself. Modi had also called Union Home Minister LK Advani about the deteriorating law and order situation. This was followed by a fax message on 28 February 2002 to the Centre. Army columns started arriving in Ahmedabad during the intervening night of 28 February-1 March. Raghavan concludes that “it is clearly established that there was no slackness on the part of the state government in summoning the army.”

However, once the army had arrived, it needed logistic support. The Modi administration could arrange all of this only by 2.30 pm on the afternoon of 1 March. At Godhra, this took up to the afternoon of 2 March. By then, a lot of the horror had already struck. The SIT report records this slackness in deploying the army, but has chosen not to comment on it.

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne120211coverstory.asp

Modi called upon the army on 27th itself. This is a fact too. Its also alleged that he had given people 3 days to do whatever they want after which he has to control the situation. Controlling the situation is tough so he needed all the help he can.

But once army arrives, the situation is not under control of modi, so this theory of giving them 3 days to riot seems a bit confusing to me.

 

[tempus123]

If we assume, Modi "wanted" to do it, what was his purpose of letting a blot on his political career ? Did he want to win imminent assembly election or wanted to rise in the eyes of RSS/VHP, the same org. he later tried to curb ?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

But once army arrives, the situation is not under control of modi, so this theory of giving them 3 days to riot seems a bit confusing to me.

Once they arrive they need logistic help from the government to get into the act. That's what the SIT report says.

Mere arrival at a place is not enough.

 

[tempus123]

Haha...

Its complex isn't it?

I just separate 2 issues and look at it differently.

What to do? What options do we have?

He said "Think of the bigger picture, what message are we sending to the heroes who end terrorism by treating them like this".

 

[battler]

But if maya kodnani was nailed through illegal purchase of telephone records then how come modi wasn't nailed if he was guilty?

 

[tempus123]

Why did Sanjeev Bhatt remain silent for 9 years ?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

If we assume, Modi "wanted" to do it, what was his purpose of letting a blot on his political career ? Did he want to win imminent assembly election or wanted to rise in the eyes of RSS/VHP, the same org. he later tried to curb ?

Politicians "want" to loot money.

That doesn't mean they will do it in a way that creates a blot in their career.

Here's what happened in case of 2002:

1. Modi went to see the Godhra victims.

2. The burnt dead bodies caused incredible grief and fury among him and many other members.

3. This led to a lot of stuff.

The alleged meeting at his place after he arrived from Godhra was a big discussion everywhere.

One can understand the anger and fury but what happened next can't be pardoned. Godhra accused deserve to die but going crazy on the masses is never right.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

But if maya kodnani was nailed through illegal purchase of telephone records then how come modi wasn't nailed if he was guilty?

Direct evidence.

Not one single evidence linked to him.

Can you nail down a person whose wife had done the killing?

Of course not unless you find an evidence that links to him directly.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Why did Sanjeev Bhatt remain silent for 9 years ?

He was found lying or his words were untrustworthy according to SIT report.

 

[battler]

Direct evidence.

Not one single evidence linked to him.

Can you nail down a person whose wife had done the killing?

Of course not unless you find an evidence that links to him directly.

So u mean the bjp workers who were rioting that night had not contact with modi during rioting.

 

[tempus123]

Politicians "want" to loot money.

That doesn't mean they will do it in a way that creates a blot in their career.

Here's what happened in case of 2002:

1. Modi went to see the Godhra victims.

2. The burnt dead bodies caused incredible grief and fury among him and many other members.

3. This led to a lot of stuff.

The alleged meeting at his place after he arrived from Godhra was a big discussion everywhere.

One can understand the anger and fury but what happened next can't be pardoned. Godhra accused deserve to die but going crazy on the masses is never right.

I don't think corruption and riots are the same thing. Do you assume he "wanted" to do it and "was sure" of covering himself ?

If he knew, and is the smart politician that he is, he wouldn't want such a blot on his career (unless impressing Hindus/RSS/VHP)..

Corruption/looting money, they always believe it will not come out and are successful in that, so am not sure the analogy holds true.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

So u mean the bjp workers who were rioting that night had not contact with modi during rioting.

A CM does not directly talk to these people. Just liek a CEO does not talk to the peons.

He talks to his subordinates who do to their subordinates and so on.

Phone records were destroyed so we dunno what happened.

Plus there was real one on one meetings where a lot of things were discussed. Not on phone.

 

[tempus123]

So u mean the bjp workers who were rioting that night had not contact with modi during rioting.

There were some people saying Modi was on-the-phone throughout.. is he a fool to be directly involved in such a manner that phone calls can be traced and he becomes an easy catch ?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I don't think corruption and riots are the same thing. Do you assume he "wanted" to do it and "was sure" of covering himself ?

If he knew, and is the smart politician that he is, he wouldn't want such a blot on his career (unless impressing Hindus/RSS/VHP)..

Corruption/looting money, they always believe it will not come out and are successful in that, so am not sure the analogy holds true.

The analogy is not about linking looting with killing.

The analogy is for the argument "just because people don't want a blot doesn't automatically mean they are pure".

Modi has lots of blots even leaving aside 2002. Ishrat Jahat, other Muslim encounters, snooping, etc.

I am not very well aware of them on a deep level though.

 

[tempus123]

A CM does not directly talk to these people. Just liek a CEO does not talk to the peons.

He talks to his subordinates who do to their subordinates and so on.

Phone records were destroyed so we dunno what happened.

Plus there was real one on one meetings where a lot of things were discussed. Not on phone.

Even the meeting.. only "one" IPS officer saw the conscience and rest all were awed by Modi's "clear directive" .. the one was later seen to be lying ?

Did Modi make a mistake by trusting Sanjeev Bhatt ?

 

[battler]

A CM does not directly talk to these people. Just liek a CEO does not talk to the peons.

He talks to his subordinates who do to their subordinates and so on.

Phone records were destroyed so we dunno what happened.

Plus there was real one on one meetings where a lot of things were discussed. Not on phone.

So the only way modi could have possibly got nailed is if someone has a recording of what transpired at his house on the 27th of feb.
I'm sure there is no recording of that.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

There were some people saying Modi was on-the-phone throughout.. is he a fool to be directly involved in such a manner that phone calls can be traced and he becomes an easy catch ?

Actually it was not MOdi who was on the phone but BJP affiliated people. Its another main allegation.

Another allegation was 1-2 influential people on the police station.

I have to check on what's SITs take on this.

There are quite a bit of stuff I didn't mention in my main post in this thread cos its validity is doubtful or its something I am not 100% sure.

 

[tempus123]

The analogy is not about linking looting with killing.

The analogy is for the argument "just because people don't want a blot doesn't automatically mean they are pure".

Modi has lots of blots even leaving aside 2002. Ishrat Jahat, other Muslim encounters, snooping, etc.

I am not very well aware of them on a deep level though.

I am also talking about the analogy in the same manner in terms of chances of being "caught". The analogy doesn't hold true. It's not possible to not be caught (morally/politically) in riots, but its much easier to not be caught during corruption.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Even the meeting.. only "one" IPS officer saw the conscience and rest all were awed by Modi's "clear directive" .. the one was later seen to be lying ?

Did Modi make a mistake by trusting Sanjeev Bhatt ?

In the meeting, I read in some source that many claimed to have forgotten about some crucial details when questioned (it was done years later on). The link must be here somewhere. if not, I read it.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Even the meeting.. only "one" IPS officer saw the conscience and rest all were awed by Modi's "clear directive" .. the one was later seen to be lying ?

Did Modi make a mistake by trusting Sanjeev Bhatt ?

In the meeting, I read in some source that many claimed to have forgotten about some crucial details when questioned (it was done years later on). The link must be here somewhere. if not, I read it.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I am also talking about the analogy in the same manner in terms of chances of being "caught". The analogy doesn't hold true. It's not possible to not be caught (morally/politically) in riots, but its much easier to not be caught during corruption.

Yes the Congress high command was totally caught in the 1984 riots.