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“Since 1996 only Saeed Anwar and now Babar Azam could have broken into India Top 5”

Ahmad-GERMANFC

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This is what is claimed by an Indian friend. He claims that if you look at Atleast 3 years together (also no skew by one off years) then since 1996; only Saeed Anwar was a Pakistani batsman who could have broken into Indian Test and ODI sides. And after many years Babar Axam joins that list in current scenario.

After lot of debate he also agreed that Younis Khan would have broken into Indian team in period between 2013-2016. But for others he says that even when had good periods; the Indian batsmen of time were ahead of those batsman whether Inzi, Yousuf, Misbah, Azhar Shehzad etc. so they still wouldn’t have broken into Indian top order.

I personaliy think Yousuf and Inzi could have also broken into Indian team in 2004-2007 periods.

Anyways what do you guys think.
 
Mohammad Yousuf was a better batsman than Ganguly and Laxman (if he is considered india top 5)
 
He is wasting your time and you are letting them waste.

Pakistan has got a very good test batting culture, and there is nothing to argue against that.

Miandad is an all-time great.

Inzamam, Hanif and Younis are country greats.

Yousuf and Anwar are also country greats although slightly below above two.

Then you have Zaheer Abbas, Saleem Malik, Majid Khan and Misbah ul haq as very good batters.

In an all time Pakistan XI, you get a great batting lineup alongwith an ATG pace attack with a world class spinner in Saqlain Mushtaq.
 
Depends on which Indian side you're talking about. If it's the current Indian side, then barring Kohli the bar is not really high.

If you're talking about the Fab 5 though, then that's a different conversation. I think Inzi would've easily broken into the ODI team when the likes of Dravid were playing ODIs. Also Ganguly wasn't that great either. So Younis or Inzi would've broken into the Test team too. But hard to replace anyone of Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar and Laxman tbh.
 
Although you have to consider one thing. In cricket, Pakistanis love to boast about their bowling culture and as Indians, we love to boast about our batting culture. Even if India has good fast bowlers who could get into the Pakistani team or Pakistan has good batsmen who could get into the Indian team, we would not admit it outwardly. That's how fan dynamics works. You shouldn't take it seriously:yk
 
Depends on which Indian side you're talking about. If it's the current Indian side, then barring Kohli the bar is not really high.

If you're talking about the Fab 5 though, then that's a different conversation. I think Inzi would've easily broken into the ODI team when the likes of Dravid were playing ODIs. Also Ganguly wasn't that great either. So Younis or Inzi would've broken into the Test team too. But hard to replace anyone of Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar and Laxman tbh.

Laxman was over rated, what has he achieved other than few memorable test innings. Younis is as good as Dravid in Tests. Inzi is better overall player than Dravid.
 
Mohammed brothers, Zaheer Abbas, Miandad, Majid Khan, Salim Malik, Inzi, Yousaf, Younis, Imran Khan (highly understand rated test and ODI batsman), Wasim Raja…. Your Indian friend needs to be educated on cricketing history!
 
Don't take him seriously.
Inzi, Yousuf, Younis were as good as other batsmen of that time.
 
Mohammad Yousuf was a better batsman than Ganguly and Laxman (if he is considered india top 5)

Lol. The great innings that Laxman played, MoYo can only dream of that. MoYo was a HTB exception England.

Ganguly was the captain and a exceptional ODI opener, and he was very good againist swing and spin.

So no MoYo wont find a place in team India.

Only other player who could have a chance was YK during 2012-14 years, not 2004 to 2007.
 
Laxman was over rated, what has he achieved other than few memorable test innings. Younis is as good as Dravid in Tests. Inzi is better overall player than Dravid.

Ah yes..Dravid and Laxman were definitely overrated. Who can forget the match winning centuries and double centuries against the great Australian team by Inzi and Younis back in the day.
 
Laxman was over rated, what has he achieved other than few memorable test innings. Younis is as good as Dravid in Tests. Inzi is better overall player than Dravid.

Younis is as good as Dravid? :))

Inzi is a far inferior player to Dravid in tests though a better ODI player, but Dravid was a WK and he has 10k ODI runs at 39.xx .
 
Lol. The great innings that Laxman played, MoYo can only dream of that. MoYo was a HTB exception England.

Ganguly was the captain and a exceptional ODI opener, and he was very good againist swing and spin.

So no MoYo wont find a place in team India.

Only other player who could have a chance was YK during 2012-14 years, not 2004 to 2007.

You should be thankful that I have only restricted it to MoYo and not stated something like Inzi was a more clutch batsman in comparison to Tendulkar.

Moyo was a complete batsman and none of the Indian greats besides Dravid displayed form like Moyo did in England. You don’t just break records set by Viv Richards if you are not a great player.
 
Ah yes..Dravid and Laxman were definitely overrated. Who can forget the match winning centuries and double centuries against the great Australian team by Inzi and Younis back in the day.

When Indian team was being 10-10 versus Australia during 1999 to 2008 period, pakistan was doing 56 and 52 all outs.

There is no way any pakistani batsman would get into Indian team from late 90s to late 2000s.

Things changed post 2011.

Even now, Babar will get into LOI team, but test team isnt sure.
 
Quality wise Babar is no where near Yousuf and Inzamam. Both Yusuf and Inzamam played against better bowlers and difficult pitch than Babar.
 
You should be thankful that I have only restricted it to MoYo and not stated something like Inzi was a more clutch batsman in comparison to Tendulkar.

Moyo was a complete batsman and none of the Indian greats besides Dravid displayed form like Moyo did in England. You don’t just break records set by Viv Richards if you are not a great player.

You can state anything, doesn't mean its true.

Inzi would have to be born again to be better than Tendulkar. Its an insult to Tendulkar to be even compared to Inzy.

Complete batsman MoYo?

Test Avg in

Aus 31
SA 26
India 33
SL 33

Thats 4 out of the 9 countries he played against.

MoYo was a HTB and minnow basher, england being the exception.

MoYo's avg in England: 54.33

Tendulkar 54.31
Dravid 68.80
Ganguly 65.35

These players are equally or better than MoYo in England.
 
Ah yes..Dravid and Laxman were definitely overrated. Who can forget the match winning centuries and double centuries against the great Australian team by Inzi and Younis back in the day.

Couple innings does not define career. Whilst Inzi under achieved, I mentioned him being a better overall player considering all formats. Only performances against Australia do not count, even if they were great team in those days.
 
When Indian team was being 10-10 versus Australia during 1999 to 2008 period, pakistan was doing 56 and 52 all outs.

There is no way any pakistani batsman would get into Indian team from late 90s to late 2000s.

Things changed post 2011.

Even now, Babar will get into LOI team, but test team isnt sure.

You can only replace a player in your team if you're guaranteed a better return compared to the players you already have in your side.

The 90s and early 2000s Pakistani side had a gun fast bowling line up but had what was basically a minnow like record vs the great Australian side because none of their batsmen could stand up to the Aussies and perform against them. Playing in Australia is always difficult but I remember the Aussies were all over Pakistan even in the UAE. They barely scored a century against them, never mind double tons and them being in a winning effort, either home or away (apart from Inzy's ton at Hobart maybe).

You would have to be out of your mind to trade Dravid and Laxman who scored tons and double tons, keeping the Aussies in the field for nearly a day while they were at the crease and turning match losing situations to match winning efforts. Without Dravid and Laxman, we lose the 2001 series, don't draw the 2003 tour of Australia and quite a few tests in India as well. I respect Inzy, Younis, etc., but to call Dravid and Laxman overrated and that the former two would easily replace them is just silly:91:
 
Couple innings does not define career. Whilst Inzi under achieved, I mentioned him being a better overall player considering all formats. Only performances against Australia do not count, even if they were great team in those days.

Never thought I would see the day when Dravid and Laxman's careers would be reduced to basically nothing but just "a couple of innings":misbah
 
Talking about Laxman not Dravid. Dravid had a good career but no way was he much superior to Younis Khan
 
My list would be:
1.Tendulkar
2. Younis Khan
3. Dravid
4. Inzimam (only because he under achieved).
5. Mohd Yusuf
Next would be Ganguly, not Laxman.
 
At their peaks, Saeed, Inzi, Yusuf, Younis, Azhar Ali (better stats than any Indian except Kohli in past 12-15 years), Babar, Rizwan .. can find places in Indian squads of their times.
 
You can state anything, doesn't mean its true.

Inzi would have to be born again to be better than Tendulkar. Its an insult to Tendulkar to be even compared to Inzy.

Complete batsman MoYo?

Test Avg in

Aus 31
SA 26
India 33
SL 33

Thats 4 out of the 9 countries he played against.

MoYo was a HTB and minnow basher, england being the exception.

MoYo's avg in England: 54.33

Tendulkar 54.31
Dravid 68.80
Ganguly 65.35

These players are equally or better than MoYo in England.

If I can state anything and it doesn’t mean if it is true or not, then why do you care in the first place. You seem to think the only international performances that matter are those against Australia. We’ve established well and truly that Pakistan have had a psychological issue when facing Australia since God knows, and this psychological issue was often seen in Indian batsmen facing other teams as well.

Man for man, based on technique and achievements, plus class in style

Moyo is a better batsman than Laxman and Ganguly. Do whatever you want about it!
 
Mohd Yusuf and Younis Khan have averages in 50s and better strike rates too, not that it matters much in tests. How can anyone compare Laxman with them. Its like comparing Saeed Anwar the test batsman with Dravid.
 
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8 remember having this argument with an Indian....in 1996..on AOL chat..it was a stupid futile argument at the time. And remains so now.

There are so many variables to consider and team composition strategy etc.

All I'll say is youngsters inzi yusuf of 2004-2006 would be a part of any side including the Indian side. But it would be a massive headache for the coach because most of them all playing the same positions..

But let's have some fun.

Saeed
Sewag
Younis
Sachin/inzi
Dravid /yusuf


That's essentially the top 5 for me..if we have injuries and sena tours then you swap around.

I would play afridi/razzler at 6. A keeper at 7 probably moin. 8 9 10 11 all bowlers. So wiqi wasim kumble Akhtar.

Reserves
Laxman
Srinath
Azhar m
Mushy
Saqi
 
1996-2006 India/Pakistan top 5

Test:

1. Sehwag
2. Anwar
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Yousuf

ODI

1. Anwar
2. Tendulkar
3. Ganguly
4. Dravid
5. Inzimam

YK really came into power as a Test stalwart in 2005 after woolmer’s appointment. He misses out on the Test no.3 spot
 
Mohd Yusuf and Younis Khan have averages in 50s and better strike rates too, not that it matters much in tests. How can anyone compare Laxman with them. Its like comparing Saeed Anwar the test batsman with Dravid.

MoYo was largely a home track bully barring his record in England. He was mediocre against the two best sides of his era - Australia and South Africa. Laxman wasn't the main batsman in his team like Tendulkar or Dravid, or Younis or Yousuf for that matter. But he always raised his game in clutch situations and brought his best game against the best oppositions. You don't replace someone like Damien Martyn just because he wasn't Ponting or Hayden.

Not just me, no Indian fan who has watched Test cricket during the past decade would ever trade Laxman or Dravid for Younis or MoYo. It means you basically trade all of India's famous test wins against the great Australian team for losses, because both Younis and MoYo were found wanting against the best sides of their era.
 
Mohd Yusuf and Younis Khan have averages in 50s and better strike rates too, not that it matters much in tests. How can anyone compare Laxman with them. Its like comparing Saeed Anwar the test batsman with Dravid.

Because Laxman avgd below 35 in only one country.

Because Laxman avgd 40 plus in 3 of the 4 SENA countries.

Because Laxman did very well against the likes of Murali and Warne.

MoYo was a HTB and minnow basher with one exception of England. He struggled against SL and India as well in addition to SA and AUS.

I will not even go into how Laxman took on the greatest team of all times and came on top. Stuff Moyo can only dream of.
 
Lol. The great innings that Laxman played, MoYo can only dream of that. MoYo was a HTB exception England.

Ganguly was the captain and a exceptional ODI opener, and he was very good againist swing and spin.

So no MoYo wont find a place in team India.

Only other player who could have a chance was YK during 2012-14 years, not 2004 to 2007.

Mohammad yousuf has a better record in similar conditions than Ganguly?
 
Lol people bringing in yousuf record in countries. Have they even checked checked Sehwag record it’s beyond a joke in some countries but we are told he’s an atg while younis is not.
 
Hafeez v Sachin would be close , both fine batsmen of their time although I would give Hafeez the edge against some countries (not mentioning which ones, intelligent people can work that out) while Tendulkar was clearly superior against bowling from other countries.
 
I tend to agree with the Indian poster.

Indian batting performed in SENA far better than Pakistani batting did which would be my barometer - although one should never discount home performances and minnow bashing. Pakistan didn't even win in West Indies for crying out loud.

You could argue for Inzi, Yousuf and Younis for sure - great batsmen, all comfortably better than Babar in tests on evidence so far. But India could argue equally well for Sehwag/Dravid/Laxman, Sachin being unarguable. That team also won in series in Pakistan.

Indians just remember Saeed because of what he did to them, like we remember Sehwag the same way.

All in all, wins matter, rankings matter and performances in difficult away conditions matter.

So yes, Indian poster is right. By the same token, I won't even think of including any Indian fast bowler since 1996 in Pakistani line up of Wasim/Waqar/Shoaib but the case for spinners will probably be in India's favor, particularly Kumble and Ashwin.
 
He is half correct because Babar won’t get into the Indian team either. He cannot displace their top 3 in ODIs (GOAT top 3) and neither is he better than KL Rahul in T20Is.

He can slot in at 4, but ideally, you would want some more aggressive at 4 and below, considering the demands of modern white ball cricket.

He is an ordinary Test player, especially in Asian conditions because he is a rookie against spin. Sure you can argue that India carried Rahane for almost a decade in spite of being ordinary in Asian conditions, but then they have the likes of Iyer and others waiting in the ranks who are better than Babar. So they don’t need him.

We need to understand that Pakistan and India are polar opposites when it comes to batting legacies. Pakistan is by far the weakest and least talented cricket nation as far as producing world class batsmen per capita is concerned.

On the contrary, India has an incredible legacy as far batsmanship is concerned. The likes of Tendulkar and Kohli are leagues above any batsman we have ever produced and ever will produce.

Indian batsmen will always be better than ours. A great batsman from Pakistani perspective is just a good batsman from Indian perspective, but a great batsman from Indian perspective is far and beyond what we can imagine in our wildest dreams.
 
8 remember having this argument with an Indian....in 1996..on AOL chat..it was a stupid futile argument at the time. And remains so now.

There are so many variables to consider and team composition strategy etc.

All I'll say is youngsters inzi yusuf of 2004-2006 would be a part of any side including the Indian side. But it would be a massive headache for the coach because most of them all playing the same positions..

But let's have some fun.

Saeed
Sewag
Younis
Sachin/inzi
Dravid /yusuf


That's essentially the top 5 for me..if we have injuries and sena tours then you swap around.

I would play afridi/razzler at 6. A keeper at 7 probably moin. 8 9 10 11 all bowlers. So wiqi wasim kumble Akhtar.

Reserves
Laxman
Srinath
Azhar m
Mushy
Saqi

Imagine giving readers a choice between Tendulkar and Inzamam and somehow giving the impression that they are comparable.

The delusion. :91:

Inzamam is not fit to tie Tendulkar’s shoelaces. There are levels between them.
 
I tend to agree with the Indian poster.

Indian batting performed in SENA far better than Pakistani batting did which would be my barometer - although one should never discount home performances and minnow bashing. Pakistan didn't even win in West Indies for crying out loud.

You could argue for Inzi, Yousuf and Younis for sure - great batsmen, all comfortably better than Babar in tests on evidence so far. But India could argue equally well for Sehwag/Dravid/Laxman, Sachin being unarguable. That team also won in series in Pakistan.

Indians just remember Saeed because of what he did to them, like we remember Sehwag the same way.

All in all, wins matter, rankings matter and performances in difficult away conditions matter.

So yes, Indian poster is right. By the same token, I won't even think of including any Indian fast bowler since 1996 in Pakistani line up of Wasim/Waqar/Shoaib but the case for spinners will probably be in India's favor, particularly Kumble and Ashwin.

Pakistan's bowling attack was Wasim-Waqar-Shoaib (Wasim admittedly in the late stage of his career). We would have loved to tour SENA with an attack like that, it's a dream attack. Instead we had to tour SENA with the likes of Agarkar, Nehra, RP Singh, Sreesanth, etc.

Yet, the fact that India performed better than Pakistan in SENA in Dravid/Laxman era is purely down to the batsmen. Conversely the fact that Pakistan had a poor record in SENA in the 2000s inspite of having an all star fast bowling line up is entirely down to their batsmen not showing up. It's like Indians arguing Zaheer would get into the Pakistani team ahead of Akhtar. Zaheer was my favourite bowler growing up, but even I'm sane enough to know Zak wouldn't get into the Pakistani bowling line up lol, as good a bowler he was.
 
I think Inzamam was a better batsman than Saeed Anwar.

If Saeed Anwar can make it to the list, Inzamam should make it also.
 
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Lol people bringing in yousuf record in countries. Have they even checked checked Sehwag record it’s beyond a joke in some countries but we are told he’s an atg while younis is not.

Who said Sehwag is ATG? What separates Sehwag is his SR in tests combined with the fact that he was an opener.

Btw Sehwag absolutely murdered spinners and had a good record in Australia as well.
 
Ganguly has a better record in England than MoYo.

But class, temperament and technique…Yousuf was always better. His Test statistics reflect that. Yousuf would have hundreds of million fans and followers if he were Indian. He was as good as the elite Indian batsmen if you watched that era of 2003-2008 carefully
 
I wont know about the question posted in OP but all I would say is people underrate Ganguly the ODI batsman a lot. His peak (1997-2002) was just freakish where he scored around 20 centuries in 4 years time. In fact, there was a time (around 1999) where he was even better than Tendulkar as an opener.

Ganguly is mostly remembered for his captaincy but most forget what a beast of an ODI batsman he was in late 90s.
 
But class, temperament and technique…Yousuf was always better. His Test statistics reflect that. Yousuf would have hundreds of million fans and followers if he were Indian. He was as good as the elite Indian batsmen if you watched that era of 2003-2008 carefully

MoYo would struggle to stay in the team if he was an Indian. His record in SENA is poor except England plus his record vs even the Vaas Murali led SL is poor. He even struggled in India.

YK was a much better batsman. Infact if i have to choose, i will choose YK to be at no.6 in Indian team during the 2012 to 2014 period.
 
Pakistan's bowling attack was Wasim-Waqar-Shoaib (Wasim admittedly in the late stage of his career). We would have loved to tour SENA with an attack like that, it's a dream attack. Instead we had to tour SENA with the likes of Agarkar, Nehra, RP Singh, Sreesanth, etc.

Yet, the fact that India performed better than Pakistan in SENA in Dravid/Laxman era is purely down to the batsmen. Conversely the fact that Pakistan had a poor record in SENA in the 2000s inspite of having an all star fast bowling line up is entirely down to their batsmen not showing up. It's like Indians arguing Zaheer would get into the Pakistani team ahead of Akhtar. Zaheer was my favourite bowler growing up, but even I'm sane enough to know Zak wouldn't get into the Pakistani bowling line up lol, as good a bowler he was.

I think Pakistan's attitude to batting is changing now. It was less technique and more attitude that got Pakistan in SENA. They just didn't prepare, work on their weaknesses. Didn't care. They relied on the bowlers.

Contrast that with 88 Pakistan when Imran made Pakistani batsmen practice with wet tape balls half way up the pitch with fast bowlers hurling bouncers. Then the batsmen turned up.
 
Who said Sehwag is ATG? What separates Sehwag is his SR in tests combined with the fact that he was an opener.

Btw Sehwag absolutely murdered spinners and had a good record in Australia as well.

Just go on younis vs sehwag thread you get get your answer. His average in England, New Zealand and SA is beyond embarrassing.
 
Tell him Ahmad Shahzad is more talented than Tendulkar and Umar Akmal would have been a greater name than Kohli if it were not for PCB's injustices. Your Indian friend will automatically shut up.





:yk
 
Tell him Ahmad Shahzad is more talented than Tendulkar and Umar Akmal would have been a greater name than Kohli if it were not for PCB's injustices. Your Indian friend will automatically shut up.





:yk

But that won't shut the truth. :srini
 
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Who said Sehwag is ATG? What separates Sehwag is his SR in tests combined with the fact that he was an opener.

Btw Sehwag absolutely murdered spinners and had a good record in Australia as well.

Sehwag was an extraordinary player in certain circumstances and familiar conditions. He was often a walking wicket away from home though. More of a subcontinent great.
 
Sehwag was an extraordinary player in certain circumstances and familiar conditions. He was often a walking wicket away from home though. More of a subcontinent great.

He was very good//great in Aus and WI and had tons in Eng and SA. Because of his playing style,he couldn't be consistent in swing friendly conditions but I am actually glad he didnt try to change as it would have reduced his effectiveness elsewhere.

Its unfair to ignore his SR and compare with low SR players.Compares favourably to high SR players like Warner and McCullum.Gilchrist was best in this category.
 
Sehwag was an extraordinary player in certain circumstances and familiar conditions. He was often a walking wicket away from home though. More of a subcontinent great.

Agreed. He averages less then 30 that too comfortably in 3 countries. No way near an ATG. No watch people talk about his strike rate.
 
This is ridiculous. Inzi would have walked into the Indian side in the 2000s and Younis would have walked into the 2010 side (tests). MoYo would have also had a shot.

Inzi and MoYo averaged more in the 2000s than Tendulkar and Dravid, but they wouldnt find a place?

Either Laxman or Ganguly would have had to give way.
 
So Yuvraj Singh can somehow play 40 tests in this period but Inzi and MoYo wont find a place? Yeah.
 
What?

What about Inzzy and Akhtar? India has surely played some not-so-great batsmen and bowlers in both formats.
 
If I can state anything and it doesn’t mean if it is true or not, then why do you care in the first place. You seem to think the only international performances that matter are those against Australia. We’ve established well and truly that Pakistan have had a psychological issue when facing Australia since God knows, and this psychological issue was often seen in Indian batsmen facing other teams as well.

Man for man, based on technique and achievements, plus class in style

Moyo is a better batsman than Laxman and Ganguly. Do whatever you want about it!

Moyo was better in ODIs then laxman and almost equivalent in test like him. In comparison to ganguly he was a lesser batsman in ODIs but better in test.
So overall better than laxman and equivalent to ganguly.
 
Mohammed brothers, Zaheer Abbas, Miandad, Majid Khan, Salim Malik, Inzi, Yousaf, Younis, Imran Khan (highly understand rated test and ODI batsman), Wasim Raja…. Your Indian friend needs to be educated on cricketing history!

I don't take such comparisons seriously. However it is from 1996 onwards Miandad retired in 96 and Salim Malik's best years were behind him. Others like Imran, Majid, Hanif Mohd, Wasim Raja and Zaheer were retired long before 96.
It is just Inzamam, Yousaf, Younis Khan, Saeed Anwar and Babar. That are from the era under question. I think all of them could have broken into the side but obviously not at the same time.
 
Moyo was better in ODIs then laxman and almost equivalent in test like him. In comparison to ganguly he was a lesser batsman in ODIs but better in test.
So overall better than laxman and equivalent to ganguly.

Ganguly was a top 3 batsman in ODI whereas MoYo was batting at 4 for as far as I can remember. He was basically competing with Dravid and he actually has a better record than him. A better average and a better strike rate. Both have played one world final each as runners up.

Indians will never accept MoYo as a better ODI batsman than Dravid.

And he wasn’t equal to Laxman, he was superior. There is a gulf in quality and class between the two. Laxman was just the fitter player who played 40 more Tests but this is because he was a Test specialist and an ODI write off, whereas MoYO was Pakistan’s core middle order batsman in both ODI and Test.

IMO he was actually versatile enough to become a good T20 batsman like Babar is right now if he had played seriously as a T20 opener in the latter part of his career, just like Kallis did learn how to be an effective T20 opener as well.

MoYo in Tests>>>Laxman, Ganguly

Moyo in ODI>>>Dravid, Laxman
 
Reading all the discussions and going by Laxman's stats, I still maintain he was over rated.
 
You can forget statistics while talking about VVS Laxman.

He is in a different league altogether in tests, never really scored any soft run and performed his A game against the likes of McGrath and Warne. As a test batsman, he is in the league of Pietersen. I would pick him over Yousuf anyday. Yousuf stats flatter himself by cashing on the likes of Bangladesh and flat UAE tracks vs weaker attacks.

Younis is better though.

Tests :-

1.Tendulkar
2. Gavaskar
3. Kohli
4. Miandad/Dravid
5. Dravid/Miandad
6. Younis
7. Sehwag
8. Inzamam
9. VVS
10. Azhar/Moyo
 
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It's not that Pakistan doesn't produce good batsmen, it clearly does and produces very good batsmen in fact. But the best batsman in the Pakistani team is often not close to being the best batsman in the world and that's because they almost always fail against the best side of their generation.

Take Javed Miandad for example. He was Pakistan's best batsman in the 80s and he did score lots of runs against most teams. But against the best side of the 80s which was the West Indies, he averaged merely 38, which itself was boosted in the fag end of the 80s after the fearsome four retired from the Windies pace attack. Before that, he was averaging close to 30 against the West Indies in the 80s.

Similarly, Australia were by far the best team in the 2000s decade and Younis averaged 31 and MoYo averaged 34 against Australia home and away during that decade.

You compare this to their Indian counterparts:

Gavaskar averaged 45 against the West Indies during the 80s.

Tendulkar averaged 54, Dravid averaged 45 and Laxman averaged 61 against Australia in the 2000s.

Miandad, Younis and MoYo were no doubt prolific run scorers against most other teams, but they were always weak against the best side of their generation, and if I have to point one distinct difference between the Indian and the Pakistani batsmen, it's that the Indian batsmen almost always perform against the best while their Pakistani counterparts fall short when faced against the best. Anyone would love to have a striker who scores 25 goals in their team, but you'd rather have a striker or even an attacking midfielder who scores 15-20 goals every season and brings his best performance against the best teams rather than a striker who scores 25 goals against other teams but goes missing against the Barcelonas and Real Madrids or City and Liverpool.

Babar is the best Pakistani batsman of his generation and India were the best side of the 2010s decade followed by Australia. He cannot face India in Tests but he didn't have a great average against Australia in the last decade (31). Tbf to him, he does have a good record against New Zealand averaging 45, which could be considered the best team of this decade so far in 2020s.
 
Btw I'm talking purely about Test cricket here. Dravid and Laxman were largely Test specialists and inferior batsmen to Younis and MoYo in ODIs and they could have easily found a place in the Indian team whenever Dravid and Laxman played until the likes of Yuvraj and Raina became established middle order batsmen.
 
Yousuf Youhana anyday in any side, just for his century in Melbourne. What a fantastic inning it was.
 
Inzamam and Mohammad Yousuf were better than most Indian batsmen in the 2000s except for Sachin and Laxman. Also in terms of talent Umar Akmal was only second to Kohli and probably would've thrived under a better set up such as the Indian team.
 
It's not that Pakistan doesn't produce good batsmen, it clearly does and produces very good batsmen in fact. But the best batsman in the Pakistani team is often not close to being the best batsman in the world and that's because they almost always fail against the best side of their generation.

Take Javed Miandad for example. He was Pakistan's best batsman in the 80s and he did score lots of runs against most teams. But against the best side of the 80s which was the West Indies, he averaged merely 38, which itself was boosted in the fag end of the 80s after the fearsome four retired from the Windies pace attack. Before that, he was averaging close to 30 against the West Indies in the 80s.

Similarly, Australia were by far the best team in the 2000s decade and Younis averaged 31 and MoYo averaged 34 against Australia home and away during that decade.

You compare this to their Indian counterparts:

Gavaskar averaged 45 against the West Indies during the 80s.

Tendulkar averaged 54, Dravid averaged 45 and Laxman averaged 61 against Australia in the 2000s.

Miandad, Younis and MoYo were no doubt prolific run scorers against most other teams, but they were always weak against the best side of their generation, and if I have to point one distinct difference between the Indian and the Pakistani batsmen, it's that the Indian batsmen almost always perform against the best while their Pakistani counterparts fall short when faced against the best. Anyone would love to have a striker who scores 25 goals in their team, but you'd rather have a striker or even an attacking midfielder who scores 15-20 goals every season and brings his best performance against the best teams rather than a striker who scores 25 goals against other teams but goes missing against the Barcelonas and Real Madrids or City and Liverpool.

Babar is the best Pakistani batsman of his generation and India were the best side of the 2010s decade followed by Australia. He cannot face India in Tests but he didn't have a great average against Australia in the last decade (31). Tbf to him, he does have a good record against New Zealand averaging 45, which could be considered the best team of this decade so far in 2020s.

This is a good post and I agree that performance against the best sides matters when it comes to defining a legacy of a batsman - and I also feel this is one of the reasons Pakistani batsmen of 200s don't often get more credit (Inzi/Younis in particular, and also MoYo). It's not that they were always worse than Indian batsmen in non-Asian conditions; if Indians were exceptionally good against Australia, we've always been better than Indians against England. But the issue with placing too much importance on performance against one side is that the sample size of games shrinks and you can get skewed results. I'm going to take a look at two players: Sachin and Inzi.

Let's take a look at Sachin as he is a good example from India due to having played the most games against Australia when compared to the others in the Fab 5. He has a fantastic average of 55.00 against Australia with 11 centuries (includes 2 double-centuries) in 39 games! These are indeed incredible numbers. I opened up each of the 11 innings he scored a century in vs Australia (they all came in 11 different test matches). Guess how many of these 11 test matches Glen McGrath played in? Only one: the 3rd test (Chennai, 2001), which is remembered for the 15 wicket demolition job from Harbajhan Singh leading India to victory. All in all, McGrath played 9 test matches against Sachin, and Sachin scored 1 hundred.

Inzimam averages 31.40 against Australia (compared to his 49.6 overall) with only 1 century in 14 tests. Of the 14 tests, Glen McGrath played 13 of them (Inzimam's hundred came in one of those games he played in). So both Inzi and Sachin have a total of one hundred against Glen McGrath.

Now one might protest against the criteria of only playing against Glen McGrath, but that's because Glen McGrath was the standout bowler during Australia's reign and the chief reason for Australia's invincibility and why they won so many test series (the other being Warne). There are many examples of how Australia were unable to win test series once McGrath was out of the side due to injury even when Warne was still there (see Ashes 2005, and many of India's famous victories against Australia). He was also specially good against Asian batsmen (though to be fair to him, almost all of the great batsmen of his time struggled against him, including Lara and Sachin). I'm not a statistician but I'd love to see the batting averages of the Fab 5 when Glen McGrath bowled against them. Mind you, some of Sachin's 11 100s came when McGrath was not playing cricket, but I'm just illustrating a point that a lot of the 100s (including the big ones from Laxman/Dravid) came against an OZ attack without McGrath - which skews their averages. This is not to take anything away from the Indian batsmen playing well against Australia - after all they can only play against what's in front of them. But what fault is it of Inzimam that McGrath happened to be available for 13 of Inzi's 14 tests - and it makes you wonder how much better he would have fared had he more games against them without McGrath.

So that's one of the reasons it can be tough to only look at games against one team - because the sample size gets smaller. There are plenty of other criteria: average, match-winning innings, series-winning innings, innings when trailing, memorable innings, etc.
 
This is a good post and I agree that performance against the best sides matters when it comes to defining a legacy of a batsman - and I also feel this is one of the reasons Pakistani batsmen of 200s don't often get more credit (Inzi/Younis in particular, and also MoYo). It's not that they were always worse than Indian batsmen in non-Asian conditions; if Indians were exceptionally good against Australia, we've always been better than Indians against England. But the issue with placing too much importance on performance against one side is that the sample size of games shrinks and you can get skewed results. I'm going to take a look at two players: Sachin and Inzi.

Let's take a look at Sachin as he is a good example from India due to having played the most games against Australia when compared to the others in the Fab 5. He has a fantastic average of 55.00 against Australia with 11 centuries (includes 2 double-centuries) in 39 games! These are indeed incredible numbers. I opened up each of the 11 innings he scored a century in vs Australia (they all came in 11 different test matches). Guess how many of these 11 test matches Glen McGrath played in? Only one: the 3rd test (Chennai, 2001), which is remembered for the 15 wicket demolition job from Harbajhan Singh leading India to victory. All in all, McGrath played 9 test matches against Sachin, and Sachin scored 1 hundred.

Inzimam averages 31.40 against Australia (compared to his 49.6 overall) with only 1 century in 14 tests. Of the 14 tests, Glen McGrath played 13 of them (Inzimam's hundred came in one of those games he played in). So both Inzi and Sachin have a total of one hundred against Glen McGrath.

Now one might protest against the criteria of only playing against Glen McGrath, but that's because Glen McGrath was the standout bowler during Australia's reign and the chief reason for Australia's invincibility and why they won so many test series (the other being Warne). There are many examples of how Australia were unable to win test series once McGrath was out of the side due to injury even when Warne was still there (see Ashes 2005, and many of India's famous victories against Australia). He was also specially good against Asian batsmen (though to be fair to him, almost all of the great batsmen of his time struggled against him, including Lara and Sachin). I'm not a statistician but I'd love to see the batting averages of the Fab 5 when Glen McGrath bowled against them. Mind you, some of Sachin's 11 100s came when McGrath was not playing cricket, but I'm just illustrating a point that a lot of the 100s (including the big ones from Laxman/Dravid) came against an OZ attack without McGrath - which skews their averages. This is not to take anything away from the Indian batsmen playing well against Australia - after all they can only play against what's in front of them. But what fault is it of Inzimam that McGrath happened to be available for 13 of Inzi's 14 tests - and it makes you wonder how much better he would have fared had he more games against them without McGrath.

So that's one of the reasons it can be tough to only look at games against one team - because the sample size gets smaller. There are plenty of other criteria: average, match-winning innings, series-winning innings, innings when trailing, memorable innings, etc.

I actually noticed your point while listing out the stats - that Australia didn't play many tests against Pakistan in the 2000s decade due to a variety of reasons. I tried searching for stats of Pakistani batsmen vs Australia for a 15 year period from '96 onwards and Younis and MoYo's stats dropped even further which is why I didn't list it out. But two batsmen stood out in their records vs Australia - Saeed Anwar and Ijaz Ahmed, both having a healthy 40+ average against Aus.

As for Tendulkar and McGrath comparison, you have to take two things into factor:

In the 2000s decade, it was not Sachin who played the most tests vs Australia but actually Dravid and Laxman. This was because Sachin missed most of the Aus tour of India in 2004 when they famously won because Tendulkar was struggling with a tennis elbow injury then and many actually thought that would be the end of his career then. Similarly, McGrath missed the entire series when India toured Australia in 2003 due to injury as well, when Tendulkar was present. So in spite of playing for a long time, Sachin didn't get to face McGrath in a lot of tests as you'd expect in a career spanning 200 tests.

Even still, Tendulkar had two centuries from 9 tests (you missed Sachin's century in the boxing day test in '99). He actually has a better record in Australia vs McGrath than in India and it would actually be even better, but for the 1999 tour of Australia which was famous for two things - Sachin being a lone performer for India in the series and him getting poor decisions from Bucknor and Harper. Also both Dravid and Laxman put on the famous 376 run partnership while facing an attack of McGrath-Gillespie-Warne-Kasprowicz in Kolkata. They had Australia bowl to them alone for more than a day in the sun (104 overs) and it was an Australian side that was coming off a world record 16 successive test wins. That was as good as it gets and it was not that Laxman and Dravid scored their centuries and double centuries only vs attacks without McGrath.

Also, while Pakistani batsmen have traditionally performed better in England than Australia, it is not that they were always better than their Indian counterparts. For example, in the 2000s decade, these were the averages of the following batsmen in England:

MoYo - 65
Younis - 52
Inzy - 46

Dravid - 66
Tendulkar - 52
Ganguly - 54
Laxman - 44

Pakistan were undoubtedly great in England in the 90s winning two consecutive series but India were better in the 2000s drawing one series in '02 and winning one in '07. Now I never included Inzy in my posts above and only referred to Younis and MoYo. In fact, I actually acknowledged Inzy's century at Hobart (in that test when Langer refused to walk) in one of my earliest posts in the thread. I actually rate Inzy better than Younis and MoYo regardless of what their respective career averages indicate.
 
I actually noticed your point while listing out the stats - that Australia didn't play many tests against Pakistan in the 2000s decade due to a variety of reasons. I tried searching for stats of Pakistani batsmen vs Australia for a 15 year period from '96 onwards and Younis and MoYo's stats dropped even further which is why I didn't list it out. But two batsmen stood out in their records vs Australia - Saeed Anwar and Ijaz Ahmed, both having a healthy 40+ average against Aus.

As for Tendulkar and McGrath comparison, you have to take two things into factor:

In the 2000s decade, it was not Sachin who played the most tests vs Australia but actually Dravid and Laxman. This was because Sachin missed most of the Aus tour of India in 2004 when they famously won because Tendulkar was struggling with a tennis elbow injury then and many actually thought that would be the end of his career then. Similarly, McGrath missed the entire series when India toured Australia in 2003 due to injury as well, when Tendulkar was present. So in spite of playing for a long time, Sachin didn't get to face McGrath in a lot of tests as you'd expect in a career spanning 200 tests.

Even still, Tendulkar had two centuries from 9 tests (you missed Sachin's century in the boxing day test in '99). He actually has a better record in Australia vs McGrath than in India and it would actually be even better, but for the 1999 tour of Australia which was famous for two things - Sachin being a lone performer for India in the series and him getting poor decisions from Bucknor and Harper. Also both Dravid and Laxman put on the famous 376 run partnership while facing an attack of McGrath-Gillespie-Warne-Kasprowicz in Kolkata. They had Australia bowl to them alone for more than a day in the sun (104 overs) and it was an Australian side that was coming off a world record 16 successive test wins. That was as good as it gets and it was not that Laxman and Dravid scored their centuries and double centuries only vs attacks without McGrath.

Also, while Pakistani batsmen have traditionally performed better in England than Australia, it is not that they were always better than their Indian counterparts. For example, in the 2000s decade, these were the averages of the following batsmen in England:

MoYo - 65
Younis - 52
Inzy - 46

Dravid - 66
Tendulkar - 52
Ganguly - 54
Laxman - 44

Pakistan were undoubtedly great in England in the 90s winning two consecutive series but India were better in the 2000s drawing one series in '02 and winning one in '07. Now I never included Inzy in my posts above and only referred to Younis and MoYo. In fact, I actually acknowledged Inzy's century at Hobart (in that test when Langer refused to walk) in one of my earliest posts in the thread. I actually rate Inzy better than Younis and MoYo regardless of what their respective career averages indicate.

Some really great discussions.
Can someone share Indian fab 5 average vs Aus in Aus?
Aus didn’t visit Pak in 2000s, so away should be considered for apples to apples.
 
That’s important context too. How much did Indian batsmen benefit playing Aussie bowling regularly? And building confidence on Kolkata wickets.
Pak batsmen never had that luxury.
 
Btw I'm talking purely about Test cricket here. Dravid and Laxman were largely Test specialists and inferior batsmen to Younis and MoYo in ODIs and they could have easily found a place in the Indian team whenever Dravid and Laxman played until the likes of Yuvraj and Raina became established middle order batsmen.

Come on man how was Dravid an inferior ODI batsman to YK?
 
You can forget statistics while talking about VVS Laxman.

He is in a different league altogether in tests, never really scored any soft run and performed his A game against the likes of McGrath and Warne. As a test batsman, he is in the league of Pietersen. I would pick him over Yousuf anyday. Yousuf stats flatter himself by cashing on the likes of Bangladesh and flat UAE tracks vs weaker attacks.

Younis is better though.

Tests :-

1.Tendulkar
2. Gavaskar
3. Kohli
4. Miandad/Dravid
5. Dravid/Miandad
6. Younis
7. Sehwag
8. Inzamam
9. VVS
10. Azhar/Moyo

Imagine having the audacity to provide a serious opinion on the subject when you consider Azhar Ali and Mohammad Yousuf as equal batsmen.
 
Inzi & younis khan >>> ganguly in test
[MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION] how younis was better than dravid in odi?
 
[MENTION=2016]Rana[/MENTION] yousuf odi avg & sr better than inzi, do you think he was better batsman than inzi in odi ?
 
Come on man how was Dravid an inferior ODI batsman to YK?

Inzi & younis khan >>> ganguly in test
[MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION] how younis was better than dravid in odi?

Sorry, I didn't check their respective averages. I just had the impression of Younis and Yousuf being decent middle order ODI batsmen around early 2000s. Didn't realise Younis' average in ODIs was that low.
 
Some really great discussions.
Can someone share Indian fab 5 average vs Aus in Aus?
Aus didn’t visit Pak in 2000s, so away should be considered for apples to apples.

That’s important context too. How much did Indian batsmen benefit playing Aussie bowling regularly? And building confidence on Kolkata wickets.
Pak batsmen never had that luxury.

It works both ways though, because you might get away with a good performance against the likes of McGrath and Warne in one series, but like you, they too would study your weaknesses and work out you. Dravid had some great performances against Australia, but also very mediocre ones too.

Pakistan did face Australia in the UAE instead, and that Australian team was an all conquering team so much so that they'd demolish any side 9/10 times regardless of whether they were playing them in Australia, moon or mars. They were so good that only 2 sides could deny them victory in their own homes in the 2000s (2001 - India and 2005 - England). They demolished every other side in their own home which is why they were so greatly regarded.

Tendulkar, Laxman and Dravid all had better averages in Australia than Inzy, MoYo and Younis. But to be fair to the latter, McGrath and Warne missed one series in 2004 through injuries. Very few batsmen have good averages against Australia in Australia when they were in their hey day, and probably only Sachin and Lara come to my mind. Even Dravid and Laxman had their struggles, which is why I always have a chuckle when some Pak fans say Dravid was a better test batsman than Tendulkar.
 
[MENTION=2016]Rana[/MENTION] yousuf odi avg & sr better than inzi, do you think he was better batsman than inzi in odi ?

Tbh I followed Pakistan cricket very closely from 2003 onwards. From what I remember, Inzimam took the bulk of responsibility to bat long and score heavily against India in the 2004 series. He played a GOAT innings against India in Karachi 2004, Yousuf has never played an innings like that in his career.

Inzimam was a GOAT one day player throughout his career and his average was always above 40 for 90% of his career, it only fell below 40 in its twilight because of his sharp decline 2006-7. During the Inzimam v All Indian batsman in his career, he had the 1 World Cup victory in his scalp whereas ODI greats such as Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly did not have this. Plus Inzimam was a part of a dominating Pakistan side in the 90s which was a better side than India’s until 2003/4. In fact, Pakistan were as good and at times stronger than India until 2007 when Dhoni took over, Inzimam was a large part of this until 2005 at least.

So yes, even if MoYo’s ODI stats are better than Inzi’s, and he was probably a much better player of swing bowling in comparison to Inzimam, but I don’t think he was anywhere near as effective in impacting the final result of a game in comparison to Inzimam up to 2005/6.

I reiterate once again, Inzi’s average dropped below 40 in the last couple of years of his career, he was a spent force and the team was in a real mess with politics etc. He dragged himself to play the 2007 World Cup
 
This is ridiculous. Inzi would have walked into the Indian side in the 2000s and Younis would have walked into the 2010 side (tests). MoYo would have also had a shot.

Inzi and MoYo averaged more in the 2000s than Tendulkar and Dravid, but they wouldnt find a place?

Either Laxman or Ganguly would have had to give way.

Inzi was walking wickets in Australia and SA. Laxman's exploits versus the great Aussie team is well known. No way Inzy or MoYo or for that matter any pakistani batsman will be selected over him.

MoYo was a HTB and minnow basher. His avg in 4 of the 9 teams he played against suggest so.

Yes YK had a good chance to get into the post 2012 team.
 
To be fair, when playing Pakistan, Inzamam and Anwar always gave me the frights when it came to their batting. Yousuf and Younis could score big runs, but they'd score it at a sedate rate so that it wouldn't harm your team in the same way a Ponting or Jayasuriya's innings would. Afridi was of course a maverick and could win a game single handedly if it was his day, but because of the risky nature of his batting, he failed more often than not and therefore you don't have to worry about him for most days except his day where you'd not have a chance.

Inzamam and Anwar though were consistent ODI batsmen and probably the Rohit and Dhoni mould batsmen for Pakistan back in the day. Still remember feeling very relieved after a jumping one handed catch by Tendulkar on the long off boundary when Inzi looked like he was set to chase the target set. In my book, Inzy was a better batsman than Younis and Yousuf. Yousuf was very good in England and probably NZ too but I think Inzy was a bit more consistent everywhere.
 
Inzi was walking wickets in Australia and SA. Laxman's exploits versus the great Aussie team is well known. No way Inzy or MoYo or for that matter any pakistani batsman will be selected over him.

MoYo was a HTB and minnow basher. His avg in 4 of the 9 teams he played against suggest so.

Yes YK had a good chance to get into the post 2012 team.

Indian fans who emerged after the IPL should not be taking seriously

They don’t understand cricket at all.
 
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