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Aakash Chopra questions value of runs/wickets against Zim & weak teams in comparison to strong teams

Abdullah719 said:
In isolation, yes. But he scored almost 5000 with 19 hundreds runs against minnows across all formats and obviously averages a good amount against them. Almost any batsman will have better numbers against minnows than they do against top teams but you can't remove that from their stats. Though you can dissect the stats deeper in order to come to a conclusion about the player's value.
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I agree that stats against minnows count but using Tendulkar's example here is completely wrong. His almost 5000 runs and 19 centuries against minnows is only 14% and 19% respectively of his total runs and centuries. That is incredibly low and only perpetuates the fact that he scored a lot against quality opposition. An example of a different player would've been better.
 
I think 5-0 whitewash might be mentioned more than CT in this thread.

This thread so far:

5-0 whitewash

5-0 white wash

5-0 white wash...
 
TM Riddle said:
Stop evading my question. How do you know players already don't realize about the quality of opposition they are facing ATM?
Do you know any of them personally?
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Don’t ask tough questions.It’s like planting a sapling and expecting it to bloom into a tree in 3 days
 
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Rayyman said:
I think 5-0 whitewash might be mentioned more than CT in this thread.

This thread so far:

5-0 whitewash

5-0 white wash

5-0 white wash...
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That is far more relevant to this thread than the Champions Trophy Final.
 
Rayyman said:
I think 5-0 whitewash might be mentioned more than CT in this thread.

This thread so far:

5-0 whitewash

5-0 white wash

5-0 white wash...
Click to expand...

What do you expect from the guy who do not lesson to his advice.
 
After looking at the posts on this thread I really wanted to share a piece of my mind on this nobody but decided that against it. All I will say is that you can only beat what's in front of you. This should go against PCB more than the players. The players are just trying to do there best and have so far comfortably beaten the opposition. PCB could have easily allowed the players to take break ahead of the Asia Cup or could have made a series against another tougher team like Australia. Anyway the players are performing well and this series has taken place and most of our players have cashed in on this weak Zim opposition by getting as much runs and wickets against them.
 
saeed5646 said:
India last odi series in aus 4-1
Last nz odi series in nz 4-0.if top team like india have hiccup pakistan can effort to have.
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India has also beaten many top teams. This Pakistan team has played only one series against a top team in the last 12 months, and they were smashed.
 
Mamoon said:
That is far more relevant to this thread than the Champions Trophy Final.
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So a one off series with no acclimatization time is more valid than a Champions Trophy that had more games in it?

Obviously, in your biased world where India is awesome and we should become the Republic of India, it is.
 
Mamoon said:
India has also beaten many top teams. This Pakistan team has played only one series against a top team in the last 12 months, and they were smashed.
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The key is pakistan have played only one top side in last 12 month in odis
 
Every time Pakistan plays well all i read is 5-0 whitewash from our resident critics. Every team goes through a blip. Rather than just focus on the CT trophy or the 5-0 whitewash lets look at the last couple of years and assess the performance that way which i believe gives every reason for a pakistan fan to get excited.

in relation to this thread itself Aakash does have a point, however this is elite team sport, and Zimbabwe are part of the elite. Harry Kane won the golden boot by scoring most of his goals against Panama and tunisia, it is part of sport, i didnt see any tweets when india were hammering zim.
 
InziRules said:
So a one off series with no acclimatization time is more valid than a Champions Trophy that had more games in it?

Obviously, in your biased world where India is awesome and we should become the Republic of India, it is.
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It is easier to win three games on the trot against three different teams than five matches against the same team.
 
Mamoon said:
India has also beaten many top teams. This Pakistan team has played only one series against a top team in the last 12 months, and they were smashed.
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To be fair, India in the last 8-9 years has only 2 away ODI series win against big teams. The very recent SA tour and one in England in 2014.

This is a new look Pakistan team. Give it some more time. They were smashed in NZ for sure but so has India over the recent past.
 
InziRules said:
So a one off series with no acclimatization time is more valid than a Champions Trophy that had more games in it?

Obviously, in your biased world where India is awesome and we should become the Republic of India, it is.
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You have to look at the series itself and not just state the scoreline. Look at the preparation for it. Both practice matches were washed out. Conditions were far less conducive for batting than they are in Zimbabwe. We can all agree that that particular series from Babar is an aberration. He has scored in NZ in the past and it is a fact that he has the ability to do it again. A large part of Pakistan's failure was due Babar's poor series. Fakhar Zaman had a good series vs NZ too (and was injured for a game). Azhar Ali was awful and has been dropped. Asif Ali has been added in place of the disappointing Hafeez. Faheem's bowling has improved. Things have changed since that series and it's safe to say that Pakistan is a better team now, and if the series were to be replayed today. Pak. would win no less than 2 games. It's been largely blown out of proportion due to the fact that there is not much else ammunition to use against this Pakistan team which has been brilliant in the past year or so in Limited Overs cricket, regardless of the opposition.
 
I am sure he doesn’t literally mean that these easy runs don’t matter.
 
Rayyman said:
You have to look at the series itself and not just state the scoreline. Look at the preparation for it. Both practice matches were washed out. Conditions were far less conducive for batting than they are in Zimbabwe. We can all agree that that particular series from Babar is an aberration. He has scored in NZ in the past and it is a fact that he has the ability to do it again. A large part of Pakistan's failure was due Babar's poor series. Fakhar Zaman had a good series vs NZ too (and was injured for a game). Azhar Ali was awful and has been dropped. Asif Ali has been added in place of the disappointing Hafeez. Faheem's bowling has improved. Things have changed since that series and it's safe to say that Pakistan is a better team now, and if the series were to be replayed today. Pak. would win no less than 2 games. It's been largely blown out of proportion due to the fact that there is not much else ammunition to use against this Pakistan team which has been brilliant in the past year or so in Limited Overs cricket, regardless of the opposition.
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I know that. It's [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] who can't seem to get it.
 
Okay mister mind your own business!! Where were you when india was beating Zimbabwe Scotland Ireland and all other minnows even srilanka who are minnows in this format nowadays and india play them like thrice a year.
 
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Nothing wrong in minnow bashing.

But playing 5 odi’s is a bit too much against this Zim B team.

Series should have been 3 ODI ‘s at max.
 
shariqnoor said:
To be fair, India in the last 8-9 years has only 2 away ODI series win against big teams. The very recent SA tour and one in England in 2014.

This is a new look Pakistan team. Give it some more time. They were smashed in NZ for sure but so has India over the recent past.
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Good post with facts
 
troodon said:
Nothing wrong in minnow bashing.

But playing 5 odi’s is a bit too much against this Zim B team.

Series should have been 3 ODI ‘s at max.
Click to expand...

Agree with that but than a test match would have been added which would have seen more records and would have been boring 5 days
 
Rayyman said:
You have to look at the series itself and not just state the scoreline. Look at the preparation for it. Both practice matches were washed out. Conditions were far less conducive for batting than they are in Zimbabwe. We can all agree that that particular series from Babar is an aberration. He has scored in NZ in the past and it is a fact that he has the ability to do it again. A large part of Pakistan's failure was due Babar's poor series. Fakhar Zaman had a good series vs NZ too (and was injured for a game). Azhar Ali was awful and has been dropped. Asif Ali has been added in place of the disappointing Hafeez. Faheem's bowling has improved. Things have changed since that series and it's safe to say that Pakistan is a better team now, and if the series were to be replayed today. Pak. would win no less than 2 games. It's been largely blown out of proportion due to the fact that there is not much else ammunition to use against this Pakistan team which has been brilliant in the past year or so in Limited Overs cricket, regardless of the opposition.
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I am not interested in hindsight. In spite of the lack of preparation, Azhar playing and Hafeez preferred to the ATG Asif Ali, almost everyone was very confident that Pakistan would win the series, or at least compete very well.

You can check the pre-series prediction thread to see for yourself.

That series wasn’t blown out of proportion; it is the true worth of this minnow bashing team that is still not good enough to beat the best teams in the world apart from one-off games.
 
Rayyman said:
Probably gets it now as he hasn't replied :yk3
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He'll say it's an excuse by Pakistan fan but the fluke excuse by an Indian fan (him) is not one

Mamoon said:
I am not interested in hindsight. In spite of the lack of preparation, Azhar playing and Hafeez preferred to the ATG Asif Ali, almost everyone was very confident that Pakistan would win the series, or at least compete very well.

You can check the pre-series prediction thread to see for yourself.

That series wasn’t blown out of proportion; it is the true worth of this minnow bashing team that is still not good enough to beat the best teams in the world apart from one-off games.
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I am not interested in hindsight. In spite of the fluke thing, almost everyone was very confident that India would win the CT.

You can check the pre-series prediction thread to see for yourself.

That series wasn’t blown out of proportion; it is the true worth of this minnow bashing team that is still not good enough to beat the best teams in the world on the big stage.
 
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As far as Im concerned, I am surprised Pakistan actually managed to pile on runs like that against a weaker team. The most we usually see from Pakistan against the minnows is a clinical bowling performance or the odd 300-330 total. We have never been a batting heavy team. This time we didnt do anything out of the extraordinary accept not lose wickets early on like we usually have done in the past.
 
Pakistan didn't just beat India in that one-off game on June 18. They battered, destroyed, humiliated and ruined them.

And it wasn't just a one-off match. It was the Final of the CT.
 
Rayyman said:
Pakistan didn't just beat India in that one-off game on June 18. They battered, destroyed, humiliated and ruined them.

And it wasn't just a one-off match. It was the Final of the CT.
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That's what the perfect definition of a fluke.
 
Mamoon said:
My guess is that the Champions Trophy Final will be referenced around 25 times in this thread.
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You are as predictable as they come. Let me predict your posts in this thread:

1. We lost 5-0 to NZ.
2. We are a rubbish team.
3. CT win was a fluke.
4. India have the best batsmen, bowlers, fielders, captain, coach, selectors, etc
5. Runs in IPL hold more value than any shorter formats international cricket.
6. Kohli alone would have scored 700-800 runs had he played in this series.

Did I miss anything?
 
The_Odd_One said:
You are as predictable as they come. Let me predict your posts in this thread:

1. We lost 5-0 to NZ.
2. We are a rubbish team.
3. CT win was a fluke.
4. India have the best batsmen, bowlers, fielders, captain, coach, selectors, etc
5. Runs in IPL hold more value than any shorter formats international cricket.
6. Kohli alone would have scored 700-800 runs had he played in this series.

Did I miss anything?
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7. Pakistan needs to stop playing cricket.
 
The_Odd_One said:
You are as predictable as they come. Let me predict your posts in this thread:

1. We lost 5-0 to NZ.
2. We are a rubbish team.
3. CT win was a fluke.
4. India have the best batsmen, bowlers, fielders, captain, coach, selectors, etc
5. Runs in IPL hold more value than any shorter formats international cricket.
6. Kohli alone would have scored 700-800 runs had he played in this series.

Did I miss anything?
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Yes you did. India won’t play Kohli and other A list stars against Zimbabwe C.
 
Mamoon said:
Yes you did. India won’t play Kohli and other A list stars against Zimbabwe C.
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How stupid you can be india play non stop cricket against top side in a year that is why they do rest their player for series against zim .on the other hand thanks to najam sethi we have played only two odi series this year so far.
 
pakistan cricket fan said:
Pakistan beating India by 180 runs is a fluke but India winning by 5 runs against england in 2013 is well deserverd.
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I don't think any other top team has faced a situation where it went 32/8 in recent times. Doesn't matter whether it was new horse or old horse. That scorecard tells a story.
 
saeed5646 said:
How stupid you can be india play non stop cricket against top side in a year that is why they do rest their player for series against zim .on the other hand thanks to najam sethi we have played only two odi series this year so far.
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But but but I thought Najam Sethi was the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in a long time. :)))
 
This is what I don't like about our so called analysts. If Indian FTBs were doing the same thing, he keeps his trap shut and meanwhile, he says nothing when they fail to score against strong teams.
 
Itachi said:
I don't think any other top team has faced a situation where it went 32/8 in recent times. Doesn't matter whether it was new horse or old horse. That scorecard tells a story.
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England were 20 odd for 9 against new Zealand. Just a reminder.
 
Itachi said:
I don't think any other top team has faced a situation where it went 32/8 in recent times. Doesn't matter whether it was new horse or old horse. That scorecard tells a story.
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Has a top-ranked team ever lost an ICC final by 180 runs before? :broad
 
saeed5646 said:
How stupid you can be india play non stop cricket against top side in a year that is why they do rest their player for series against zim .on the other hand thanks to najam sethi we have played only two odi series this year so far.
Click to expand...

Rayyman said:
But but but I thought Najam Sethi was the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in a long time. :)))
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Najam Sethi is not responsible for the fact that teams are not willing to play in Pakistan.

In fact, the few useless matches that we have hosted in Pakistan in the last three years against some bunch of farmers and teams with third rate players would not have been possible without Sethi, who is the best PCB head in many, many years.
 
Itachi said:
I don't think any other top team has faced a situation where it went 32/8 in recent times. Doesn't matter whether it was new horse or old horse. That scorecard tells a story.
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That we not the best i know but getting Azhar Ali and Hafeez dropped is a start hope Malik will be ax soon fom odi.
But this guy says anything Pakistan wins is fluke do you agree what he says?
 
Mamoon said:
Najam Sethi is not responsible for the fact that teams are not willing to play in Pakistan.

In fact, the few useless matches that we have hosted in Pakistan in the last three years against some bunch of farmers and teams with third rate players would not have been possible without Sethi, who is the best PCB head in many, many years.
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No pakistan in uae we play in uae not in pakistan don.t try to act smart and sethi sahab how said we will be big4 after big3 turn out of be lie and we left stranded without any cricket as bcci outsmart him easily
 
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pakistan cricket fan said:
That we not the best i know but getting Azhar Ali and Hafeez dropped is a start hope Malik will be ax soon fom odi.
But this guy says anything Pakistan wins is fluke do you agree what he says?
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OK. Trolling aside, If I have to voice my honest opinion, I'll share a few points with Mamoon but not agree with everything.

In my honest opinion, Pakistan does have the ability. Somehow it could hit the weak points of a team. But his concerns are valid too.

People are getting too high after victory against Zimbabwe. If we put the same logic, vinay kumar, some binny guy would be world beater from India. But they suck in reality.

That does not mean Pakistan will follow the same suite. A fair judgement could be made after playing with 2-3 to teams and then decide.

Since Pakistan isn't playing against one, giving opinion on either way will be far fetched.
 
saeed5646 said:
India have lost a match to kenya also why did not you know about it?check your history before bringing pak stats of 15 to 20 years old
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So a loss in an ODI match against Kenya in a tournament that India went on to win is the same as losing a Test series to Zimbabwe that too at home?
 
Itachi said:
That's what the perfect definition of a fluke.
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Fluke is when your highest scoring batsman has 5 catches dropped in semi final and you go on to win the WC. India winning 2011 WC was the biggest fluke of all the flukes in history.
 
saeed5646 said:
No pakistan in uae we play in uae not in pakistan don.t try to act smart and sethi sahab how said we will be big4 after big3 turn out of be lie and we left stranded without any cricket as bcci outsmart him easily
Click to expand...

From April to August, the UAE is too hot to host matches. As a result, Pakistan is not able to host any team for five months, which is a big problem.

If teams were willing to play in Pakistan, we would have been able to host teams during these five months.

Najam Sethi has been our best Chairman for years, but obviously he is not perfect. I don’t agree with him on his obsession of playing India.

The way we go to BCCI with a begging bowl every now and then is embarrassing.
 
cricketerB94 said:
Fluke is when your highest scoring batsman has 5 catches dropped in semi final and you go on to win the WC. India winning 2011 WC was the biggest fluke of all the flukes in history.
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It could have been a fluke. But Pakistan is famous for dropping catches right and left. So it wasn't something unusual rather it was a common occurrence.

If it was aus or RSA where they hardly miss a catch, then you have a point that it could have been said a fluke.
 
Mamoon said:
From April to August, the UAE is too hot to host matches. As a result, Pakistan is not able to host any team for five months, which is a big problem.

If teams were willing to play in Pakistan, we would have been able to host teams during these five months.

Najam Sethi has been our best Chairman for years, but obviously he is not perfect. I don’t agree with him on his obsession of playing India.

The way we go to BCCI with a begging bowl every now and then is embarrassing.
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If you cannot host matches in uae you can play away series against other side and can do a agreement of reciprocal in uae when there is ideal weather to cricket to be played in uae.but guess what this is expecting too much from pcb they can never be that smart .agree with the bcci fiasco.
 
Mr.Q said:
You guys are easily provoked. Wasting time talking about a comment made by Akash Chopra lol. Who and what is he?!
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Exactly! He was a below average cricketer and was even lower than Sadagoppan Ramesh in terms of skills.
 
Itachi said:
It could have been a fluke. But Pakistan is famous for dropping catches right and left. So it wasn't something unusual rather it was a common occurrence.

If it was aus or RSA where they hardly miss a catch, then you have a point that it could have been said a fluke.
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Pakistan's win in CT could have been a fluke but Asian teams do not have a good record in New Zealand. So it wasn't something unusual to lose there rather it was a common occurrence.

India's record is 0-4 when they played ODIs last time in New Zealand (almost just after winning CT 2013). If India's record was better in New Zealand, then you have a point that Pakistan's CT 2017 win could have been said a fluke.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Ex cricketer and opener. He used to open with Virender Sehwag and played an important part in many partnerships with Sehwag.
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Yeah. Had a staggering average of 23 after 10 test matches. May be he is upset he didn’t get a chance to improve his own average by bashing the minnows.
 
Itachi said:
OK. Trolling aside, If I have to voice my honest opinion, I'll share a few points with Mamoon but not agree with everything.

In my honest opinion, Pakistan does have the ability. Somehow it could hit the weak points of a team. But his concerns are valid too.

People are getting too high after victory against Zimbabwe. If we put the same logic, vinay kumar, some binny guy would be world beater from India. But they suck in reality.

That does not mean Pakistan will follow the same suite. A fair judgement could be made after playing with 2-3 to teams and then decide.

Since Pakistan isn't playing against one, giving opinion on either way will be far fetched.
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This is the first time in this series that i am watching this one day match so i dont agree that we are best team but we are getting upwards only malik need to go now and getting more young players in the team.
 
Mamoon said:
The Zimbabwe against which Tendulkar scored is not the Zimbabwe that we are playing in this series.

Even a full strength but weak Zimbabwe team has won a Test and ODI against us in the last few years, and were well on their way to embarrass us in the third ODI in Lahore in 2015.

This is Zimbabwe team is no better than Nepal. A complete joke of a series that should have been a 3 match ODI series at best.
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That was one of the worst Pakistani ODI side in our history. Maybe we shouldn't count any teams who scored runs against us during this period too.
 
Mamoon said:
And they were smashed.
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Would you rather win bilaterals or win trophies?

NZ, Aus, Ind can smash us all they like but if it means we're coming home with a trophy then I know which one I'd choose.

I can go on about how there's correlation to beating top sides and winning trophies, etc. Yes, that's true. But no one gave us a chance in the last tournament we had, and I believe we're a better side since then. The reality check NZ gave us was a good one as it meant leaving players like Hafeez, Azhar out of the team and trying different seamers out. It was a first tour of NZ for many of the players we had and it was an experience they'll learn from.

5-0 whitewash looks bad on paper but if anything it was a blessing in disguise to lose the deadweight in the team.
 
cricketerB94 said:
Pakistan's win in CT could have been a fluke but Asian teams do not have a good record in New Zealand. So it wasn't something unusual to lose there rather it was a common occurrence.
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If that's the case, it means Pakistan lost same as they are used to lose in the past. Which means, Pakistan isn't progressing rather it actually regressed with 32/8 scorecard which weren't a norm before.

India's record is 0-4 when they played ODIs last time in New Zealand (almost just after winning CT 2013). If India's record was better in New Zealand, then you have a point that Pakistan's CT 2017 win could have been said a fluke.
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do call it (Indias win) a fluke. I have no objection to that.
 
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