Alastair Cook: More courage and character than Sachin Tendulkar?

[Hawkeye]

If you look at Alistair Cook's Test career stats, they're great.

But, if you add to it the fact that he scored all of them as an opener, it's mind boggling. Pretty sure he could have matched or gone above Tendulkar if he batted down the order. At least statistically.

How can anyone possibly score:

32 centuries
56 half centuries

As an opener in Tests? In just 160 matches, ~45 average. Against the red swinging ball, in an overwhelming majority of the matches.

He was a solid rock at the top of the lineup.

Compare him to Tendulkar, where the latter chose to hide from the new ball and demoted himself in the Test batting lineup.


Discuss.

 

[Hitman]

When did Tendulkar demote himself down the order? He always batted at number 4. He batted even lower than that for the first few years of his career. Has anyone read any reports that he was asked to open the innings or come at number 3, but he refused to do so?

So Cook has more heart and character than Tendulkar because he opened the innings? That means he showed more character than Viv, Sobers, Ponting, Dravid, Lara, G. Chappell, Miandad and pretty much every other successful batsman who didn't open the innings )

And what is some of your problem with Tendulkar? Simply because of how much acclaim and plaudits he receives from the rest of the cricketing fraternity? Ask yourself why he does so.

 

[Proactive_]

Easily.

 

[Itachi]

The quality of PP is going down day by day....

Not because its a bashing of tendu.... Trust me, in 2011 when I joined here, there was way more bashing but with actual contents, stats.

But now it has turned into some petty shots.

Kinda like how wwe was great during 90s but now it should be poured down in the gutter.

On topic, give the criteria which shows more courage.

1. Being opener.
Next?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

My own personal thesis is that the art of test match captaincy is such that only someone who has captained for a period of time should truly be considered amongst the pantheon of greats.

Its for that reason I agree with the OP.

The likes of G.Smith and A.Cook have more courage and character than S.Teenda.

That does not mean that S.Teenda is not a great of the game. Just that successful cricketing captains have more of a stamp on the game.

 

[Mamoon]

My own personal thesis is that the art of test match captaincy is such that only someone who has captained for a period of time should truly be considered amongst the pantheon of greats.

Its for that reason I agree with the OP.

The likes of G.Smith and A.Cook have more courage and character than S.Teenda.

That does not mean that S.Teenda is not a great of the game. Just that successful cricketing captains have more of a stamp on the game.

Tendulkar without captaincy had to deal with a lot more pressure than the likes of Smith and Cook with captaincy.

No individual player in history had to cope with the expectations of billions of people like Tendulkar did.

I don’t think any player, no matter how mentally tough, would have been able to handle the pressure of being the captain in addition to handling the pressure of being Tendulkar.

 

[Bilal7]

Idiotic thread. You're just asking for people to hate on Cook.

 

[Bilal7]

Tendulkar without captaincy had to deal with a lot more pressure than the likes of Smith and Cook with captaincy.

No individual player in history had to cope with the expectations of billions of people like Tendulkar did.

I don’t think any player, no matter how mentally tough, would have been able to handle the pressure of being the captain in addition to handling the pressure of being Tendulkar.

Tendulker was simply not a good captain. Pressure had nothing to do with it. He's never been a good captain or leader at any level or form of cricket.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Tendulkar without captaincy had to deal with a lot more pressure than the likes of Smith and Cook with captaincy.

No individual player in history had to cope with the expectations of billions of people like Tendulkar did.

I don’t think any player, no matter how mentally tough, would have been able to handle the pressure of being the captain in addition to handling the pressure of being Tendulkar.

Perhaps but its difficult to judge. Infact one could say the pressure on someone like Kohli is then more than it would have been on Tendulkar. Tendulkar quietly accumulated runs in a mediocre team. Kohli is making runs in a team with more expectation on it and is a captain in the age of social media.

We will always refer to Cooks England or even Kohlis India...never to Tendulkars India.

Again this doesnt take away from his achievements, just that in my eyes leadership especially in test cricket should elevate some players who have lesser stats into the top category of players.

I'd also posit that the lack of leadership should demote some players from the top tier but that has proved to be a controversial statement when Ive made it.

Ive later refined it so that bowlers without captaincy can still be considered among the elite as they have to still stamp their authority on a sides culture through field placements etc but id always rate a captain batsman over a non captain batsman if their records are in the same range i.e 45+ average.

 

[kuskash]

Easily.

Yes, for you every Indian batsman has less courage than any non Indian batsman. No surprises there.

 

[BA56]

Much facepalm in the thread. Resorting to intangibles like courage and leadership etc.

One can prefer Cook to Tendulkar, and one can always have his own personal preferences but to assume Cook was more courageous than Tendulkar just because he opened the batting is ridiculous*100.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Tendulkars captaincy can never be judged properly especially considering the politics of the BCCI at the time and the fixing saga if the 90's with the likes of Azhar and jadeja underperforming under his watch.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Much facepalm in the thread. Resorting to intangibles like courage and leadership etc.

One can prefer Cook to Tendulkar, and one can always have his own personal preferences but to assume Cook was more courageous than Tendulkar just because he opened the batting is ridiculous*100.

Tendulkar is a fine batsman but come on we cant automatically give him 10/10 for everything based solely on his batting average.

There will be areas where some players are better. Younis Khan is a better 4th innings player for instance and Dravid was better defensively just as Cook may be stronger mentally.

If we sum up all parts of batting then tendulkar may come on top but its unreasonable to say that he tops every category.

 

[slipcatch]

Tendulkars captaincy can never be judged properly especially considering the politics of the BCCI at the time and the fixing saga if the 90's with the likes of Azhar and jadeja underperforming under his watch.

Yes! we can, Tendulkar was never a great Captain, He was a great batsmen.

And, absolutely nothing wrong with it. His fans need to understand this simple fact.

 

[Hitman]

Tendulkar is a fine batsman but come on we cant automatically give him 10/10 for everything based solely on his batting average.

There will be areas where some players are better. Younis Khan is a better 4th innings player for instance and Dravid was better defensively just as Cook may be stronger mentally.

If we sum up all parts of batting then tendulkar may come on top but its unreasonable to say that he tops every category.

Of course he does not top every category. It would be naive to believe so. But the thread starter has done nothing but made a big fat joke with his OP. He considers Cook to be mentally tougher than Tendulkar simply because Cook opened the batting. By the logic, Cook is mentally tougher than most (if not every) successful batsman who didn't open the innings. We can assume Cook at be mentally tougher than Steve Waugh as well if we use that criteria.

Of course one can consider Cook to be mentally tougher than Tendulkar, they have the liberty to do so. But at least bring some proper logic to back your views.

 

[Mohammad zuber]

Thats why he is retiring if he had enough courage he will go back to county and score runs and earn his spot he lost his mental toughness at early age he know he is going to retire thats why he announce his retirement

 

[BA56]

Tendulkar is a fine batsman but come on we cant automatically give him 10/10 for everything based solely on his batting average.

There will be areas where some players are better. Younis Khan is a better 4th innings player for instance and Dravid was better defensively just as Cook may be stronger mentally.

If we sum up all parts of batting then tendulkar may come on top but its unreasonable to say that he tops every category.

No one says Tendulkar is 10/10 in every category. As you say that statistically there are different batsmen in different instances who have done better than Sachin in same situations, but bringing up the hypothetical courage factor just because Cook is an opener is what the ridiculousness is for.

 

[BA56]

Thats why he is retiring if he had enough courage he will go back to county and score runs and earn his spot he lost his mental toughness at early age he know he is going to retire thats why he announce his retirement

Mental toughness and courage are two different things btw.

 

[Mohammad zuber]

Mental toughness and courage are two different things btw.

He lost his mind and he don't want to dare and play county to earn his spot

 

[BA56]

He lost his mind and he don't want to dare and play county to earn his spot

He's played his career and he's retiring with a big hundred, he's Englands most successful Test batsman.

I'm not sure whether he has retired from all cricket or just international cricket, but even he doesn't go back to county cricket what has daring got to do with it.

 

[Srtfan]

Why only better than sachin,as per op cook is better than lara,ponting,kallis,dravid,viv,sobers.

 

[Mohammad zuber]

He's played his career and he's retiring with a big hundred, he's Englands most successful Test batsman.

I'm not sure whether he has retired from all cricket or just international cricket, but even he doesn't go back to county cricket what has daring got to do with it.

Sachin can comeback at 34 while cook is retireing playing only 1format of cricket most of his carrier

 

[BA56]

Sachin can comeback at 34 while cook is retireing playing only 1format of cricket most of his carrier

Repeat after me, apple is apple and orange is orange. No point comparing the two.

 

[Buffet]

Absolutely, OP is spot on.

 

[munda_khi]

Why only better than sachin,as per op cook is better than lara,ponting,kallis,dravid,viv,sobers.

and bradman too

 

[kuskash]

We all saw his courage from test numbers 120 to 160. Lets not get carried away with his performances in test number 161.

 

[Hasan123]

He carried a nation for 2 decades. Come on. Poor thread.

 

[The_Odd_One]

He carried a nation for 2 decades. Come on. Poor thread.

No, he did not. Post 1999, India had a very strong batting lineup. Sehwag, Dravid, and VVS won more matches than Tendulkar.

 

[Ab Fan]

If you look at Alistair Cook's Test career stats, they're great.

But, if you add to it the fact that he scored all of them as an opener, it's mind boggling. Pretty sure he could have matched or gone above Tendulkar if he batted down the order. At least statistically.

How can anyone possibly score:

32 centuries
56 half centuries

As an opener in Tests? In just 160 matches, ~45 average. Against the red swinging ball, in an overwhelming majority of the matches.

He was a solid rock at the top of the lineup.

Compare him to Tendulkar, where the latter chose to hide from the new ball and demoted himself in the Test batting lineup.


Discuss.

Gavaskar is an opener as well. He has 34 hundreds in lesser tests.

 

[Rahul1]

Easily.

This guy is hilarious.

 

[Ab Fan]

The thread has come at a point where you dont even want to demean the achievements of Alastair Cook. Definitely an England great and one of England's greatest player since Ian Botham

 

[Hasan123]

No, he did not. Post 1999, India had a very strong batting lineup. Sehwag, Dravid, and VVS won more matches than Tendulkar.

He was still expected to be the main scorer .

 

[kuskash]

If you look at Alistair Cook's Test career stats, they're great.

But, if you add to it the fact that he scored all of them as an opener, it's mind boggling. Pretty sure he could have matched or gone above Tendulkar if he batted down the order. At least statistically.

How can anyone possibly score:

32 centuries
56 half centuries

As an opener in Tests? In just 160 matches, ~45 average. Against the red swinging ball, in an overwhelming majority of the matches.

He was a solid rock at the top of the lineup.

Compare him to Tendulkar, where the latter chose to hide from the new ball and demoted himself in the Test batting lineup.


Discuss.

Sunny G says hi. Less tests, more centuries, faced much more lethal attacks as an opner. Sachin never opened so there was no hiding from him.

 

[Cric1234]

Sunny G says hi. Less tests, more centuries, faced much more lethal attacks as an opner. Sachin never opened so there was no hiding from him.

Gavasker played 16 tests in England at an average of 41 although the sample size isn't big enough it gives an idea of potential performance.

 

[Cric1234]

The other way round Cook had played 13 tests in India at an average of 51 giving the impression he would perform better there.

 

[Ab Fan]

The other way round Cook had played 13 tests in India at an average of 51 giving the impression he would perform better there.

Poor analogy.

Graeme Smith averages 35 in India. So, if he played for India, he would have been a highly mediocre opening batsmen??

And the same Graeme Smith averages 67 in England opening the batting. So, if he played for England, he would have performed far better there?

 

[Hitman]

Gavasker played 16 tests in England at an average of 41 although the sample size isn't big enough it gives an idea of potential performance.

The other way round Cook had played 13 tests in India at an average of 51 giving the impression he would perform better there.

So? Lara averages 33 in India while Laxman averages 48 in West Indies.

 

[Ab Fan]

So? Lara averages 33 in India while Laxman averages 48 in West Indies.

For Lara, one can atleast say low sample size. But what about Ponting?

What would have Ponting averaged if he played for India using the same logic? 26??

 

[Cric1234]

Poor analogy.

Graeme Smith averages 35 in India. So, if he played for India, he would have been a highly mediocre opening batsmen??

And the same Graeme Smith averages 67 in England opening the batting. So, if he played for England, he would have performed far better there?

I said it gives an idea not the be all and end all Smith is an anamoly most opening batsmen don't do aswell in England but based on what he showed he would perform better in England than India.

 

[Cric1234]

For Lara, one can atleast say low sample size. But what about Ponting?

What would have Ponting averaged if he played for India using the same logic? 26??

Ponting showed some weakness against spin bowling it's unlikely he would be a great batsman in India he was more suited to home conditions.

 

[topspin]

If you look at Alistair Cook's Test career stats, they're great.

But, if you add to it the fact that he scored all of them as an opener, it's mind boggling. Pretty sure he could have matched or gone above Tendulkar if he batted down the order. At least statistically.

How can anyone possibly score:

32 centuries
56 half centuries

As an opener in Tests? In just 160 matches, ~45 average. Against the red swinging ball, in an overwhelming majority of the matches.

He was a solid rock at the top of the lineup.

Compare him to Tendulkar, where the latter chose to hide from the new ball and demoted himself in the Test batting lineup.


Discuss.

Your most prolific run scorers are supposed to be bat beneath the openers because they can exploit the older ball the best. Result: more runs accumulated for the side.

Getting past the new ball is tough and provide a vital platform for the rest of the batsmen but do not underestimate the onus of the middle order to covert starts to big scores and hundreds to daddy hundreds. Also don't forget what about the times when a number 3,4, 5 (and far less often at 6) who have to come in when the team is in trouble whether it be 20/2 or 40/3 or 60/4 and etc.

Tendulkar was a one man army in the 90s and has many times in his 200 test career rescued his side in these positions of adversity. During this decade he averaged almost 60, head and shoulders above everyone else in the toughest era for batsmen in modern times; where they averaged 37 which comes to no surprise when you're facing the menacing bowling greats. The only era that had a lower average for batsmen was the 1930s. This thread is disrespectful to one of greatest, if not the greatest batsman of the game.

 

[Ab Fan]

I said it gives an idea not the be all and end all Smith is an anamoly most opening batsmen don't do aswell in England but based on what he showed he would perform better in England than India.

Yes, it is harder for openers in South Africa and England than in India but the analogy you made was absolutely out of box. Gavaskar would have still done much better than Cook if he would have grown up in England and played for England. He has scored runs pretty much everywhere and has performed against some of the ATG bowlers of his era.

Also, Cook's away average is 46 while Gavaskar's away average is 52. Hence, when we exclude Eng(tougher conditions), Cook average is 46 and when we exclude India for Gavaskar(easier conditions), he averages 52. So, the comparison is really out of the box.

Your point was that Gavaskar averages 40 in England while Cook averages 50+ in India without looking into all the other factors.

 

[Ab Fan]

Ponting showed some weakness against spin bowling it's unlikely he would be a great batsman in India he was more suited to home conditions.

Ponting had issues against Harbhajan in Indian conditions, which is why he had tail-enders stats in the 2001, 2004 and 2008 test series in India.

He did very well against Murali in Sri Lanka and many other quality spinners. He would have been a brilliant player had he played for India or any other country as well.

It is just that this logic you are putting is flawed.

 

[Savak]

Tendulkar without captaincy had to deal with a lot more pressure than the likes of Smith and Cook with captaincy.

No individual player in history had to cope with the expectations of billions of people like Tendulkar did.

I don’t think any player, no matter how mentally tough, would have been able to handle the pressure of being the captain in addition to handling the pressure of being Tendulkar.

That may have been the case in the 90's but to be honest this all went away from 2001 onwards with the emergence of Dravid, Ganguly, Laxman, Sehwag due to which the team was no longer Teenda dependent

 

[Cric1234]

Ponting had issues against Harbhajan in Indian conditions, which is why he had tail-enders stats in the 2001, 2004 and 2008 test series in India.

He did very well against Murali in Sri Lanka and many other quality spinners. He would have been a brilliant player had he played for India or any other country as well.

It is just that this logic you are putting is flawed.

It's not flawed at all Gavasker is unlikely to have averaged 50 in England after 80 100 matches same Ponting wouldn't be a great batsman in India unless there was drastic improvement in the future.

 

[Ab Fan]

It's not flawed at all Gavasker is unlikely to have averaged 50 in England after 80 100 matches same Ponting wouldn't be a great batsman in India unless there was drastic improvement in the future.

Well I just proved you why your logic is flawed. Btw you need to given justification to the above points you made.

If Gavaskar would have grown up in England and played for England as an opener, yes, he would have averaged 50 as an opener.

 

[shaz619]

Both are in the same league that is for sure

 

[BaankeJi]

Tendulkar's courage cannot be undermined. No other player had to perform under so much pressure. Nobody came even close.

 

[Cric1234]

Well I just proved you why your logic is flawed. Btw you need to given justification to the above points you made.

If Gavaskar would have grown up in England and played for England as an opener, yes, he would have averaged 50 as an opener.

Yes the likelihood is a player will be better in home conditions however now we're comparing different eras and we will never know.
If a player didn't do well in one country he's still a great player Ponting just didn't master Indian conditions that's all unlikely he would average high there long term but if he was of Indian origin brought up there then it's likely he would be better there.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Yes! we can, Tendulkar was never a great Captain, He was a great batsmen.

And, absolutely nothing wrong with it. His fans need to understand this simple fact.

And his detractors who don't have any understanding of the realities of that era can criticise him all he wants but they only display their ignorance.

 

[Oligochaetes]

A man who couldnt score runs under pressure for long time and then suddenly retires citing an empty tank at a young age of 34, and then immediately scores a 100 when the pressure is off. It's easy to see he retired early rather than face the ignominy of being dropped.

This is character and courage?

@34 subcontinental players are strong and fit enough to play another 5 years...lol, Not weaklings like these English.

 

[Bhaijaan]

You may disagree with OP but he has every right to voice his opinion. Give him respect.

Tendulkar is the most popular and iconic cricketer ever and that is beyond statistics. It’s something that’s not going to change if tomorrow someone actually does eclipse him statistically. Tendulkar’s aura and fan following is Maradona level.

Thanks.

Bhaijaan.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Best batsmen usually bat in middle order anyway. Gavaskar is an anomaly because the team was so weak that even when he tried batting at 4 the score was still ZERO as Viv Richards cheekily pointed out once.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Things like courage, mental toughness and talent are so subjective that you can make anyone better than anyone based on whims and personal pleasures.

There may be a case for Afridi being better than Tendulkar because of playing FEARLESSLY and with COURAGE.

But facts usually tell the entire story.

A career that spans over 80s, 90s and 00s is hard to argue against and it tells the story of a simple man who defied decades and adjusted his game according to demands of time regularly to keep his ATG status.

Thats why there will be no Tendulkar again.

But there will be many Cooks and Smiths and Amlas in cricket.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Things like courage, mental toughness and talent are so subjective that you can make anyone better than anyone based on whims and personal pleasures.

There may be a case for Afridi being better than Tendulkar because of playing FEARLESSLY and with COURAGE.

But facts usually tell the entire story.

A career that spans over 80s, 90s and 00s is hard to argue against and it tells the story of a simple man who defied decades and adjusted his game according to demands of time regularly to keep his ATG status.

Thats why there will be no Tendulkar again.

But there will be many Cooks and Smiths and Amlas in cricket.

I dont think we will see someone like Smith again or Cook for that matter.

In the 80s 90s or 00s there is no Indian side that has Tendulkars stamp on it.

He let others dictate the style with which India would play and has next to no influence in the side on the field.

Stastically he has an inferior batting average to many of his peers who also had the guts to lead their side into battle.

As a batsman he may be in the top 20 of cricket but in terms of guts,courage,fearlessness,strength, chivalry, virility and leadership he is not even in the top 100 of the game.

 

[Bewal Express]

Cooke was decent but Tendulkar was something else. The likes of Richards, Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Kallis and Kohli are once in a lifetime players.

 

[K4Kohli]

Yes, he has more courage and character than Tendulkar, Bradman, Lara & Viv

 

[The_Odd_One]

Tendulkar was a run scoring machine who could bat on any surface, in any conditions, against any opponent, and against any type of bowlers with his textbook technique.

This said, he lacked mental toughness and killer instinct which inferior batsmen like Lara, Ponting, Waugh, VVS, Younis, etc possessed. There is no surprise that it’s hard to find a legendary knock from Tendulkar that put cricket fans in awe.

 

[the_outsider]

Tendulkar was a run scoring machine who could bat on any surface, in any conditions, against any opponent, and against any type of bowlers with his textbook technique.

This said, he lacked mental toughness and killer instinct which inferior batsmen like Lara, Ponting, Waugh, VVS, Younis, etc possessed. There is no surprise that it’s hard to find a legendary knock from Tendulkar that put cricket fans in awe.

Did you not see Desert storm? Or the 97 vs Pak in 2003WC? Or the 82 off 49 balls in NZ when he was a 20-year-old. Or the 114 he scored at Perth in 1991/2 as an 18-year-old (an innings that Ian Chappel rates as one of the top 10 test innings he has ever seen). How about the 4th innings century in Chennai when India chased down almost 400 against England in the backdrop of the 2008 Mumbai attacks?

The only reason I am not listing out more innings is because then I will be here all day.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Did you not see Desert storm? Or the 97 vs Pak in 2003WC? Or the 82 off 49 balls in NZ when he was a 20-year-old. Or the 114 he scored at Perth in 1991/2 as an 18-year-old (an innings that Ian Chappel rates as one of the top 10 test innings he has ever seen). How about the 4th innings century in Chennai when India chased down almost 400 against England in the backdrop of the 2008 Mumbai attacks?

The only reason I am not listing out more innings is because then I will be here all day.

Don’t mix formats. I think he was a better ODI batsman than tests. Please provide any innings as good and impactful as Lara’s 153 against Australia or VVS’s double against Australia or Younis’s double against England.

 

[Ab Fan]

Tendulkar was a run scoring machine who could bat on any surface, in any conditions, against any opponent, and against any type of bowlers with his textbook technique.

This said, he lacked mental toughness and killer instinct which inferior batsmen like Lara, Ponting, Waugh, VVS, Younis, etc possessed. There is no surprise that it’s hard to find a legendary knock from Tendulkar that put cricket fans in awe.

I agree with killer instinct part but you are confusing it with mental toughness. He played cricket across all formats for a period of 24 years. The pressure and expectations were always enormous from him. The passion, hunger, drive and motivation required to play cricket for that long and always be on top of your game is massive.

There was a period between 2003-06 when his career took a hit due to tennis-elbow injury. The fact that he went on to overcome from that and established himself as the top ranked batsmen in the world again during 2009-10 tells us about the mental strength he possessed. Not many cricketers would have managed to overcome from it, let alone again becoming the best batsmen in the world.

I agree he lacks killer instincts which is why there isn't one series SRT had in his career where he got 500+ runs. So, ruthlessness and killer instinct was lacking but mental toughness was always there.

 

[the_outsider]

Don’t mix formats. I think he was a better ODI batsman than tests. Please provide any innings as good and impactful as Lara’s 153 against Australia or VVS’s double against Australia or Younis’s double against England.

119* in Eng when he was 17 years old and scored a 4th innings century to draw the match when it looked almost certain that eng would win.

Back to back centuries in Aus (148* at Adelaide and 114 at Perth) in 1991 as an 17 year old.

His 4th innings 136 against Pakistan in 1999.

His match winning 193 at Leeds in 2002

His 241* at SCG in 2004 that led to India's first ever series draw in Australia.

194* in Multan in 2004 that India won by an innings.

153 in Adelaide in 2008 which came right after a 150* at SCG in the previous match

103* in Chennai - a match winning 4th innings century against the backdrop of 2008 Mumbai attacks that won India the series 2-1.

Match winning and series-winning 160 in NZ in 2009.

Back to back centuries in SA (111* and 146) in 2011 that gave India its first ever series draw in SA.


I count 12 innings here.

Laxman's 281 is one of the greatest test innings of all time.

But nobody has any many legendary knocks as Sachin. If you don't know that yet, then you don't know cricket.

And this is just tests. I haven't even started on ODIs.

 

[B_Positive]

he is no comparison to Sachin