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Australia v Pakistan | 3rd Test | Sydney | Jan 3-7, 2017 | Day 2

Junaids said:
To be frank, I've finally realised that this is not just a matter of personal opinions.

It's gone far beyond a debate.

I've come to the conclusion that the people who oppose Salman Butt's selection in Australia are people who cannot be reasoned with. In fact, it's probably not safe to let them possess a pair of scissors or to write with anything other than crayons.

His record here is so exceptional, and the people picked in his place are non-performing clowns.

It is very hard to respect anybody who tries to argue that black is white, Day is Night, and Salman Butt is not better in Aussie conditions than all this lot apart from Azhar and Shafiq.

You just can't reason with some people.
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Yes, the ones with personal opinions are the ones who think that an highly inconsistent batsman can be judged on what he did seven+ years ago. I can show you ten year ago records of even ATGs. Bring them all back. Anyone who uses seven+ year old stats to back anything has already lost the debate. And what stats are even these? One series average of 37 another in the 40s. How much better is that from Youni's 27 average this series?
 
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Indiafan said:
Yes, the ones with personal opinions are the ones who think that an highly inconsistent batsman cannot be judged on what he did seven+ years ago. I can show you ten year ago records of even ATGs. Bring them all back. Anyone who uses seven+ year old stats to back anything has already lost the debate
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He was Man of the Match in the domestic final three weeks ago with centuries in both innings.

What more proof could there have been?
 
Junaids said:
He was Man of the Match in the domestic final three weeks ago with centuries in both innings.

What more proof could there have been?
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The astronomical difference between Pakistani domestic cricket and international is astounding. How can you draw comparative lines between the two?
 
How many does Younis need to reach his selfish milestone?

This wicket is easy enough for a former top batsman to do it.
 
Ellipsism said:
The astronomical difference between Pakistani domestic cricket and international is astounding. How can you draw comparative lines between the two?
Click to expand...
The old witch drowning argument.

Put her in the lake. If she lives, she's a witch so has to be killed. If she drowns, she wasn't a witch.

I'd have put Asif and Butt straight back into the national squad and got them as fit and in form as possible.

But if you make them perform in domestic first, you can't then say "but that doesn't count". You're just trying to kill witches.
 
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Junaids said:
The old witch drowning argument.

Put her in the lake. If she lives, she's a witch so has to be killed. If she drowns, she wasn't a witch.

I'd have put Asif and Butt straight back into the national squad and got them as fit and in form as possible.

But if you make them perform in domestic first, you can't then say "but that doesn't count". You're just trying to kill witches.
Click to expand...
I'd expect better from someone of your knowledge, this is typical fan boy behaviour.

The same way in which people were banking on Amir to resurge or uplift our cricket your doing to Asif and Butt.
 
How many of these 17 are going to WI? My hunch is 13 - Sohail, Sharjeel will miss out, probably Asghar as well. If Misbah goes there - I expect the other 12 to be there with Zulfiquar, Hafeez & probably Shaan to join. If they take 17 players, may be, just may be Hamza or Asif has a chance.
 
Younis's 10k runs are on the line. He has to play well in this game otherwise he may never get to 10k.
 
MMHS said:
How many of these 17 are going to WI? My hunch is 13 - Sohail, Sharjeel will miss out, probably Asghar as well. If Misbah goes there - I expect the other 12 to be there with Zulfiquar, Hafeez & probably Shaan to join. If they take 17 players, may be, just may be Hamza or Asif has a chance.
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Are you trying to make Mickey quit?

It's fair to say that after this, the following are "Over My Dead Body" selections for him:

Misbah
Younis
Imran
Sohail
Sharjeel
Zulfiqar
Hafeez
Shan Masood
 
Ellipsism said:
I'd expect better from someone of your knowledge, this is typical fan boy behaviour.

The same way in which people were banking on Amir to resurge or uplift our cricket your doing to Asif and Butt.
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Class is class until you get too far into your thirties.

I've been clear that Asif and Butt were just stopgaps to win these three series outside Asia.

If Asif has a future it's only because there are no other right-arm options.
 
Junaids said:
Are you trying to make Mickey quit?

It's fair to say that after this, the following are "Over My Dead Body" selections for him:

Misbah
Younis
Imran
Sohail
Sharjeel
Zulfiqar
Hafeez
Shan Masood
Click to expand...

He has accepted an identical team for UAE, NZ & AUS - then an ODI team, which is even poorer. I think, it's a status co. - Mickey, Misbah, Inzi, Shahriar won't interfere each others job. In my Dhaka office, every week I used to decline at lest 2 - 3 meeting requests just to avoid particular individual - if not possible, I'll send someone from my team:(.

Same thing is happening here - people are nice & sweet with each other, patting back & happy to hold each others coveted post. I do think, Mickey 'll take PAK to 2019 WC, for that PCB knows, if they do any humpty with another reputed pro coach, next time our Khaled Mahmood will be only foreigner applying for a PCB job - he is just waiting for the stench to burst out of the fridge .....

If PCB is to appoint a ProCoach from AUS/SAF, then they have to replace Misbah/Azhar; otherwise any PAK/IND/SRL will do better; because it's a clash of fundamental philosophy - Arthur can't operate with Yasir bowling 85 overs & 5 men on line - Misbah/Azhar can't operate with 3/4 pacers & fielders closing on singles. Our Hathura is doing fantastic, because his team philosophically plays the same strategy, so are the Indians doing under Kumble.

May be Auther himself is being incognito just to make sure that there is a change. I analyzed his extremely successful 5 years in SAF - he is just wasting his time here, if it doesn't change after WI.
 
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Who was the last man to take a wicket on 1st ball of Test career?
 
Australia did a mistake by dropping Bird. Can't understand their logic behind picking 2 spinners and dropping a genuine pacer. It was Bird who came up with the crucial breakthroughs in the first 2 matches when Starc and Hazelwood looked uninspiring.

Pace is what troubles Pakistani batsmen, you aren't going to spin the Pakistani batsmen into giving their wickets on a turner, let alone on a flat wicket. Spin is their bread and butter..
 
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Expect Cartwright to take 3 wickets
 
well this tour has showed that babar azam isnt ready for test cricket yet , he is still a boy.
 
There has not been a better match to break the losing streak in Australia for Pakistan than this one.

Just need to negotiate the 2 pacers to draw this one.
 
Junaids said:
No he didn't.

Salman Butt and Imam were clear at the top of the openers' records in the QEA, averaging 27 more than Hafeez, 24 more than Nasir Jamshed, 12 more than Shan Masood and 10 more than Khurram Manzoor.
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He did fail

Look at his record in QeA before the final 2 matches of the season.

It was pathetic and even YOU were admitting he didn't deserve to go to Australia. When squad was selected you finally relented that he has just not done the work to be considered for Australia

It's ridiculous that you expect selectors to pick a 30 averaging player based on a series 7 years ago and in which he scored runs in a dead rubber
 
I wake up and turn BT Sport on to see that Sharjeel has gone already.

TsSqTrG.gif
 
JibranAnsari said:
well this tour has showed that babar azam isnt ready for test cricket yet , he is still a boy.
Click to expand...

But dropping him will be bigger mistake - PAK has invested 5 Tests & 10 innings for him in precious foreign tours, now he has to be continued at least for 1 year. If he is dropped now, he'll make a come back in a year time & again the cycle starts. Fundamentally, he is technically sound & great potential - was put in the toughest of conditions & he failed, but bringing someone for easier series isn't wise. He has to play & bat at 3 for at least next 10 Tests - after that, drop him for 3/4 years, until he piles up scores in domestics ever. Dropping him now will be bigger mistake than dropping Amin based on his 4 Tests in UK against ENG/AUS.
 
Big Mac said:
I wake up and turn BT Sport on to see that Sharjeel has gone already.

TsSqTrG.gif
Click to expand...

What did you expect? If I had written my mind, posters would have brought BD-NZ series, hence I just kept silent yesterday. You can check my post on him 3 months back - at best he is fit for 20 overs game, better if it was 10 overs; there are no more option hence he has to play in ODI. Unless he was lefti, I would have still said get someone else, but a lefti opener is must for ODI.
 
MMHS said:
But dropping him will be bigger mistake - PAK has invested 5 Tests & 10 innings for him in precious foreign tours, now he has to be continued at least for 1 year. If he is dropped now, he'll make a come back in a year time & again the cycle starts. Fundamentally, he is technically sound & great potential - was put in the toughest of conditions & he failed, but bringing someone for easier series isn't wise. He has to play & bat at 3 for at least next 10 Tests - after that, drop him for 3/4 years, until he piles up scores in domestics ever. Dropping him now will be bigger mistake than dropping Amin based on his 4 Tests in UK against ENG/AUS.
Click to expand...

The problem with him (and frankly all under 30 players in Pak) is that I just don't see them as being equipped and ready to play long innings and rack up daddy hundreds

I think you give Babar and these guys the easiest pitch in the world and a pop gun bowling attack and at most they'll get to 120-130 before losing concentration and getting out

So against international level bowlers it's an issue
 
Looks like, only way Azhar can miss out PAK's ATG in AUS is by run out; playing really, really well.
 
street cricketer said:
There has not been a better match to break the losing streak in Australia for Pakistan than this one.

Just need to negotiate the 2 pacers to draw this one.
Click to expand...

only problem- run rate is slow. they might bat for days and still not put enough runs on the board.
 
MMHS said:
But dropping him will be bigger mistake - PAK has invested 5 Tests & 10 innings for him in precious foreign tours, now he has to be continued at least for 1 year. If he is dropped now, he'll make a come back in a year time & again the cycle starts. Fundamentally, he is technically sound & great potential - was put in the toughest of conditions & he failed, but bringing someone for easier series isn't wise. He has to play & bat at 3 for at least next 10 Tests - after that, drop him for 3/4 years, until he piles up scores in domestics ever. Dropping him now will be bigger mistake than dropping Amin based on his 4 Tests in UK against ENG/AUS.
Click to expand...

Dont think the conditions were tough in australia , our batsmen just failed. The wickets were generally good for batting and ball was coming onto bat pretty well. He needed to play at least one innings above 50 to show that he has got something , at the moment he looks all at see and is impatient too. We probably will give him more test matches given the lack if good batsmen in pakistan but i personally think he will never be a good test batsman.
 
Slog said:
The problem with him (and frankly all under 30 players in Pak) is that I just don't see them as being equipped and ready to play long innings and rack up daddy hundreds

I think you give Babar and these guys the easiest pitch in the world and a pop gun bowling attack and at most they'll get to 120-130 before losing concentration and getting out

So against international level bowlers it's an issue
Click to expand...

Batsmen evolve. Most Indian batsmen had a similar problem of not hitting daddy hundreds like Pak batsmen used to do and now they have improved on it while the problem seems to have been passed on to the Pak batsmen. He will improve with time.
 
Slog said:
The problem with him (and frankly all under 30 players in Pak) is that I just don't see them as being equipped and ready to play long innings and rack up daddy hundreds

I think you give Babar and these guys the easiest pitch in the world and a pop gun bowling attack and at most they'll get to 120-130 before losing concentration and getting out

So against international level bowlers it's an issue
Click to expand...

Still it's better as long as he is getting out to a good ball. After 130 overs of fielding (that's almost entire duration of a FC match in QA style - check other side of Waga border, the Ranji KO rounds are played for 5 days, 96 overs/day, which actually is 30 overs longer than a Test match), he got a really good one - in entire series, I haven't seen on ball from PAK pacers at that length.

There is no County window, there is no domestic cricket - only way he can learn is what worked for MoYo, Inzi & YK under Woolmer - stay in PAK team & learn from Arthur, learn on job. If he goes to domestics, Basit Ali & Co. will turn him into another Khurram Manzoor.
 
This might be the only test series that azhar will ever play in australian soil and i think he has done really really well. Our next test series in australia might be in 2023.
 
FlickedOffHips said:
only problem- run rate is slow. they might bat for days and still not put enough runs on the board.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter. Pakistan aren't winning this. They just need to bat through tomorrow or atleast close to the stumps and they will have done enough to secure a draw with some good rear guard batting in the 2nd innings. Starc was on and off for quite a few periods in play and it was Bird who came up with the goods a lot of times. Both Starc and Hazelwood will have to be at their very best to trigger a Pak collapse here as the Pak batsmen are temperamentally very good.
 
MMHS said:
What did you expect? If I had written my mind, posters would have brought BD-NZ series, hence I just kept silent yesterday. You can check my post on him 3 months back - at best he is fit for 20 overs game, better if it was 10 overs; there are no more option hence he has to play in ODI. Unless he was lefti, I would have still said get someone else, but a lefti opener is must for ODI.
Click to expand...

Dropping Sami was a poor decision and you don't need hindsight to know that. Dropping him for Sharjeel is unforgivable.

Sami has shown solidity and he's managed a decent score in every previous series he's played in. All he lacks is consistency and needed to be persevered with but typical desi kneejerk panicking meant we dropped a promising 20 year old opener for a flat footed slogger because it's important to be "aggressive".
 
MMHS said:
He has accepted an identical team for UAE, NZ & AUS - then an ODI team, which is even poorer. I think, it's a status co. - Mickey, Misbah, Inzi, Shahriar won't interfere each others job. In my Dhaka office, every week I used to decline at lest 2 - 3 meeting requests just to avoid particular individual - if not possible, I'll send someone from my team:(.

Same thing is happening here - people are nice & sweet with each other, patting back & happy to hold each others coveted post. I do think, Mickey 'll take PAK to 2019 WC, for that PCB knows, if they do any humpty with another reputed pro coach, next time our Khaled Mahmood will be only foreigner applying for a PCB job - he is just waiting for the stench to burst out of the fridge .....

If PCB is to appoint a ProCoach from AUS/SAF, then they have to replace Misbah/Azhar; otherwise any PAK/IND/SRL will do better; because it's a clash of fundamental philosophy - Arthur can't operate with Yasir bowling 85 overs & 5 men on line - Misbah/Azhar can't operate with 3/4 pacers & fielders closing on singles. Our Hathura is doing fantastic, because his team philosophically plays the same strategy, so are the Indians doing under Kumble.

May be Auther himself is being incognito just to make sure that there is a change. I analyzed his extremely successful 5 years in SAF - he is just wasting his time here, if it doesn't change after WI.
Click to expand...

I think that Mickey learned from Homework Gate not to rock the boat.

He knew that Misbah held all the power but that he'd be gone inside a year.

And he knew that Inzi would pick the players that Misbah wanted.

But Mickey has already skilfully guided Mohammad Hafeez and Zulfiqar Babar out of the squad and vetoed a Kamran Akmal recall.

I think he anticipates Misbah leaving by Saturday night and expects to take control at that point.

He will tolerate Younis for one more easy series, but will think that Hafeez and Zulfiqar are gone for good and that Imran and Sohail are history too.

I hope he won't accept Fawad Alam or Salman Butt back either. He needs to groom youngsters - he already has enough senior players in Azhar, Shafiq, Sarfraz, Yasir and Wahab.
 
street cricketer said:
Doesn't matter. Pakistan aren't winning this. They just need to bat through tomorrow or atleast close to the stumps and they will have done enough to secure a draw with some good rear guard batting in the 2nd innings. Starc was on and off for quite a few periods in play and it was Bird who came up with the goods a lot of times. Both Starc and Hazelwood will have to be at their very best to trigger a Pak collapse here as the Pak batsmen are temperamentally very good.
Click to expand...
oh i'm under no illusion that PAK can win. if they bat slowly they're prone to collapse eventually with a follow-on, when all bets are off.
 
I definitely heard a noise and my heart skipped a beat. Let's hope this is Steve Smith 2.0 and Younus goes on to make a big hundred :smith:
 
Junaids said:
I think that Mickey learned from Homework Gate not to rock the boat.

He knew that Misbah held all the power but that he'd be gone inside a year.

And he knew that Inzi would pick the players that Misbah wanted.

But Mickey has already skilfully guided Mohammad Hafeez and Zulfiqar Babar out of the squad and vetoed a Kamran Akmal recall.

I think he anticipates Misbah leaving by Saturday night and expects to take control at that point.

He will tolerate Younis for one more easy series, but will think that Hafeez and Zulfiqar are gone for good and that Imran and Sohail are history too.

I hope he won't accept Fawad Alam or Salman Butt back either. He needs to groom youngsters - he already has enough senior players in Azhar, Shafiq, Sarfraz, Yasir and Wahab.
Click to expand...

Not the best day, time to write this - but, I see just about 4/5 gaps in the squad which can have a decent start under Arthur. Azhar, Asad, Srfu, Yasir, Amir are the core of the team - add Babar as well; that's 6. For the time being one Senior pacer should accompany the squad - Wahab. Rizwan is the back-up WK & Sami isn't doing that bad (compared to available resources), add YK with the mix, because even at 43, he is scoring some runs & he'll murder our lot 8 months later in Asia. That's 10.

So basically, just about 4/5 players to be picked - young potential players who can play for a decade & more importantly their learning curve is not finished. Batting is still not the biggest issue - BUT what Arthur needs is to call at least 7/8 U23 pacers doing well in this domestic season & 2/3 all-rounders - pick at least 4 of them to WI. That can be a good start for Arthur.
 
Lots of time left in the game for Younis to score a double and announce retirement and that would be biggest positive from the series.
 
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