Best young (Under-25) batsman from Asia?

[Mamoon]

Indian team is still miles ahead of us but its not like they don't have problems of their own. Their entire batting line up revolves around Kohli. In most cases it is Kohli or bust. They are struggling to find two regular openers. Dhawan is in and out of the side. Sharma is always looking over his shoulder. Considering that Babar has an average of an in excess of 50 after playing in and against England and Australia, and also on the dead slow pitches of UAE, I doubt that he would have struggled to find a spot in the Indian ODI eleven.

India is a batting factory. Babar is a special talent for us both good batsmen are worth dime a dozen in India. Their newcomers score triple-centuries in their second Tests. If someone does that for Pakistan, he would be given the Pride of Performance Award.

Dhawan is in and out of the ODI side but if he was Pakistani with the same stats and performance, he would already be a Pakistani great and second to Saeed Anwar only. Same goes for Rohit. There is no way Babar would have been established in the Indian team by now. He is a special talent for us but not for them.

 

[Mamoon]

Babar also has ODI hundred vs Australia in Australia

Yes he does, and Rahul has only played 6 ODIs so far with 1 hundred. How many centuries did Babar have after 6 ODIs? Forget Babar, do you know de Kock's ODI stats after a good 15-20 ODIs? He was worse than Hafeez.

 

[Syed1]

India is a batting factory. Babar is a special talent for us both good batsmen are worth dime a dozen in India. Their newcomers score triple-centuries in their second Tests. If someone does that for Pakistan, he would be given the Pride of Performance Award.

Dhawan is in and out of the ODI side but if he was Pakistani with the same stats and performance, he would already be a Pakistani great and second to Saeed Anwar only. Same goes for Rohit. There is no way Babar would have been established in the Indian team by now. He is a special talent for us but not for them.

A person averaging over 53 at 91 strike rate after 23 matches is a special talent and will find a spot in every single international side in the world and especially India, whether you like it or not.

 

[Mamoon]

A person averaging over 53 at 91 strike rate after 23 matches is a special talent and will find a spot in every single international side in the world and especially India, whether you like it or not.

He would not have played 23 matches yet if he was in India, that is the whole point. KL Rahul has only played 6 ODIs for India so far, but he would have played close to 30 by now if he was in Pakistan.

 

[Mamoon]

You have not answered both of my questions. Let me ask again by rephrasing my questions a bit.

Who is a better ODI batsman in India besides Kohli, Sharma, and Dhoni who has kept Rahul out of the ODI team? How is someone who has just played 6 matches better than someone who has played 23 matches with identical stats?

Why does not Babar get brownie points like Tendulkar did for playing in a much weaker batting line-up?

Why does not Babar get extra credit for scoring runs on low bounce pitches of the UAE where we do not see 350+ scores like we do in India, Australia, England, SA?

I have answered but you are running in circles. The fact that he wrongfully kept out of the ODI team for quite some time doesn't mean much apart from the fact that the Indian management misjudged Rahane's ability to play ODIs. Similarly, Babar should been a fixture in the team by 2014, but his debut was delayed because lesser players were hogging his position.

Secondly, statistics so early in their careers don't mean much. You have to look at potential. KL Rahul has shown more potential than Babar across formats - he has shown the ability to grind, accumulate and also explode, which Babar has failed to do so. There is no aspect of batting that Babar trumps KL Rahul in, but the latter has an extra gear which the former does not.

Thirdly, let Babar achieve 10% of what Tendulkar has achieved in his career and he will get brownie points for playing in a weaker batting lineup. There is no doubt that KL Rahul has a much better environment to thrive in. If Babar runs him close by the time both retire, we can safely say that KL Rahul edged him because of having superior teammates. However, at the moment, he is simply superior at an individual level.

Finally, the pitches for WI ODI series were flat. Much better than the usual ODI pitches in the UAE, and that is because we played on freshly prepared pitches. The fact that the Test series took place after the ODI series meant that the pitches for the ODI series had more pace and bounce than the usual UAE pitches, which is why we scored 284, 337 and 308. We don't have power-hitters, otherwise, those pitches were all 350+.

Do you think KL Rahul is not good enough to score runs against a bowling attack of Gabriel, Joseph, Narine, Holder etc., when he has a Test hundred in Australia, a 199 vs England and a T20I hundred in 50 balls vs WI, neither of which Babar has come close to achieving?

There is no point in being biased, but perhaps I'm flogging a dead horse. If KL Rahul was Pakistani and Babar was Indian, you would have had a completely different stance. KL Rahul is better than Babar in all aspects, and that is a fact. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Babar is fantastic in his own right and the best batting talent we have produced since MoYo.

 

[Hamza_]

Babar Azam needs to get in some big shots. He throws it away really bad although is a solid limited overs player for us.

 

[Mamoon]

Mamoon Template for PP

"Glorify Indian players at all times across all discussion with no regard to the question or validity of the reasoning provided in order to generate max heat from PPers"

You can accuse me all you want, but please explain in what aspects is Babar a better batsman than KL Rahul?

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

For a 22 year old Babar is gifted. We have found Miandad's replacement finally.

I hope he performs in CT.

 

[Mobashir]

I have already said multiple times that Smith is ahead of Kohli in Tests.

Who is the best batsman in the world at the moment?

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

I will talk abt odis.

Rahul has great support. Like Sharma and Kohli at top of the order and Dhoni and Jedhav as finishers.
But Babar? He is already the best odi bat in Pakistan after 20 odis. He has more pressure compare to Rahul. Every player has different role. Babar is not someone whom you expect to score at SR at 115. That was Sharjeels role. Babar's role is to play long innings and carry the innings. Babar and Sharjeel would have been a great combo but Babar has lost the support of Sharjeel too. Support of great players is in huge favor of Rahul and we should consider this too.

Btw I expect Babar to become Pak's best odi bat ever.

 

[Messiah]

KL Rahul for now

 

[Mamoon]

Who is the best batsman in the world at the moment?

Tests:

Smith
Root/Kohli
Kohli/Root
Williamson

ODIs:

Kohli
Smith
Root
Williamson

T20Is:

Kohli
Root
Smith/Williamson
Williamson/Smith

Overall:

Kohli
Root/Smith
Smith/Root
Williamson

 

[Citizen4]

Tests:

Smith
Root/Kohli
Kohli/Root
Williamson

ODIs:

Kohli
Smith
Root
Williamson

T20Is:

Kohli
Root
Smith/Williamson
Williamson/Smith

Overall:

Kohli
Root/Smith
Smith/Root
Williamson

there's no way Smith is better than Warner in ODIs right now. and no mention of De Kock in ODIs ? he was the ODI player of the year in the last ICC awards

 

[Mamoon]

there's no way Smith is better than Warner in ODIs right now. and no mention of De Kock in ODIs ? he was the ODI player of the year in the last ICC awards

Kohli, Root, Smith and Williamson are considered the four best batsmen in the world today, which is why I compared them across all formats to determine who the best batsman in the world is.

 

[Princejain191]

1. Rahul
2.
3. Babar/Mendis

The best test player of the three is, unarguably, Rahul and I have no doubt that it would be the case in ODIs and T20s too when he is a regular in the team - which he would have been already if not for the injuries. He is as good as any young Indian player I have seen come up in the team.

Also, you don't get many 24 year old batsmen who are good enough to make all three formats of the international side. Most are forced, he just looks good enough to play in all 3. From India - Kohli and Rahul have been the only ones in the last 10 years.

No contest.

 

[Mobashir]

Tests:

Smith
Root/Kohli
Kohli/Root
Williamson

ODIs:

Kohli
Smith
Root
Williamson

T20Is:

Kohli
Root
Smith/Williamson
Williamson/Smith

Overall:

Kohli
Root/Smith
Smith/Root
Williamson

You are giving as much weight to all 3 formats?
This is a bizarre method.
You consider Laxman at par with Lets say Hafeez as a batsman?
Because
Test: Laxman > Hafeez
One day: Hafeez > Laxman

Or if using your (rather poor) method:
Test: Younis > Hafeez
ODI: Hafeez > Younis
T20's: Hafeez > Younis
So overall Hafeez > Younis?!

Smith is way ahead than Kohli as a batsman.
In Test he averages 12 more, has a tremendous record In tough conditions. Where as Kohli has failed In most important series for him: In England, At home vs South Africa, at home vs England(Swann series), At home vs Australia.

In ODI's, where Kohli has won many bilaterals for his country he can't be compared to Smith who has won a World cup performing In quarter, semi and Final. (That's according to your Logic).

T20's, most teams play around 3-4 per year, and sometime most players are rested like the récent Sri Lanka vs Australia series. Itna nonsense to give it so much weight.

 

[Mamoon]

You are giving as much weight to all 3 formats?
This is a bizarre method.
You consider Laxman at par with Lets say Hafeez as a batsman?
Because
Test: Laxman > Hafeez
One day: Hafeez > Laxman

Or if using your (rather poor) method:
Test: Younis > Hafeez
ODI: Hafeez > Younis
T20's: Hafeez > Younis
So overall Hafeez > Younis?!

Smith is way ahead than Kohli as a batsman.
In Test he averages 12 more, has a tremendous record In tough conditions. Where as Kohli has failed In most important series for him: In England, At home vs South Africa, at home vs England(Swann series), At home vs Australia.

In ODI's, where Kohli has won many bilaterals for his country he can't be compared to Smith who has won a World cup performing In quarter, semi and Final. (That's according to your Logic).

T20's, most teams play around 3-4 per year, and sometime most players are rested like the récent Sri Lanka vs Australia series. Itna nonsense to give it so much weight.

Your Laxman-Hafeez and Younis-Hafeez examples are irrelevant because Laxman and Younis are far better than Hafeez in Tests. There is a massive gulf between them and Hafeez. Both are greats of their country but Hafeez isn't. Smith is no doubt the number one Test batsman in the world today, but he is not in a different league to Kohli, Root and Williamson. All four are fantastic batsmen and ATG material.

Every player is allowed a bad series here and there, Smith has been imperious for about 3 years now, but if we nitpick, we can argue that he failed in 3 Tests in England when the conditions were tough, thus surrendering the Urn to England. He is extremely consistent but of course he will have a bad patch too and will fail in several series in the future, which doesn't mean anything.

In ODIs, Kohli is so far ahead of players of his era that it is futile to compare him to anyone. We are talking about a batsman who in spite of being 28 only, is 4 hundreds away from having the second most ODI hundreds in history, and even if he doesn't hit the same heights in the future, he will finish with the most ODI hundreds and runs. Yes it is true that Smith has won knockouts in World Cups for Australia, but Kohli is yet to play a World Cup at home in his peak.

He was nowhere near as good in 2011 as he is now, he has pretty much reached his peak as an ODI batsman and it is about maintaining this level now. In various ICC tournaments, he has proved that he is a clutch player, so it is not a case of him being a choker like Amla for example. Yes he didn't do well in the 2015 World Cup by his standards, but 2015 was not a great year for him. He didn't perform up to his normal standards in any format in any series. The World Cup simply came at a wrong time for him. I have no doubt in my mind that he will play a starring role for India in the 2019 World Cup, and if he doesn't, his stock in ODIs will drop.

As far as T20Is are concerned, forget bilateral series - we know Australia doesn't care much, but only look at the World T20s. Kohli has been magical in the two World T20s that he has played in his peak (2014, 2016). There is no debate over the fact that he is well ahead of Smith in LOIs. The difference between him and Smith in LOIs is greater than the difference him and Smith in Tests.

Nonetheless, you know this already. You are not a novice, but your only problem is with Kohli's nationality.

 

[Rayyman]

Babar can definitely get a lot of ODI 100s and runs overall. Maybe even get the most for a Pakistani batsman in both categories..

 

[Bilal7]

Babar Azam is a cut above. He's already a complete batsman at this young age while the others have technical flaws, mental issues they need to address before becoming the finished articles.

 

[Mamoon]

Babar Azam is a cut above. He's already a complete batsman at this young age while the others have technical flaws, mental issues they need to address before becoming the finished articles.

Again, If he was a complete batsman, he would not have failed in Australia in Tests. He is still work in progress, and needs to improve his power game in LOIs. Not sure about the power hitting, but if he can suppress his Akmal genes, he will have a fantastic Test career because he is technically very good barring one or two minor issues and has the temperament. He is by far the best batting prospect Pakistan has produced in more than a decade.

On the other hand, KL Rahul is technically as good as it gets, and possesses a serious power game. He has also shown considerable mental strength already. Has scored for India numerous times when others haven't, and has a Test hundred in Australia already. The excuse that Babar played on tougher pitches doesn't work either, considering how our so-called world class bowling attack got thrashed by Australia, especially by the great FTB Warner. The pitches were flat, but Babar is not ready yet to score runs in Tests in places like Australia. However, it was a good learning curve for him and he will do better next time.

Don't know why it is so hard for people to accept that although Babar is a great talent, KL Rahul is simply better. The bias is simply too strong.

 

[Pantani]

Kusal Mendis

 

[Bilal7]

Again, If he was a complete batsman, he would not have failed in Australia in Tests. He is still work in progress, and needs to improve his power game in LOIs. Not sure about the power hitting, but if he can suppress his Akmal genes, he will have a fantastic Test career because he is technically very good barring one or two minor issues and has the temperament. He is by far the best batting prospect Pakistan has produced in more than a decade.

On the other hand, KL Rahul is technically as good as it gets, and possesses a serious power game. He has also shown considerable mental strength already. Has scored for India numerous times when others haven't, and has a Test hundred in Australia already. The excuse that Babar played on tougher pitches doesn't work either, considering how our so-called world class bowling attack got thrashed by Australia, especially by the great FTB Warner. The pitches were flat, but Babar is not ready yet to score runs in Tests in places like Australia. However, it was a good learning curve for him and he will do better next time.

Don't know why it is so hard for people to accept that although Babar is a great talent, KL Rahul is simply better. The bias is simply too strong.

No one buys your shtick anymore. Whether it's Bhuveshnar, Shami, Rahane or Ashwin, the Indian is always better than his Pakistani counterpart simply because you like to rile up some of the other posters here. You are the most biased poster on this forum who absolutely cannot rank any Pakistani player or team above an Indian one so don't even talk about anyone else being biased.

Babar did not get runs in Australia but he looked quite assured for a guy playing his first test series there. His 90 in New Zealand is a far better achievement that Rahul's century in a series where tail-enders were scoring fifties for fun.

In tests, Rahul has done very well for himself, especially during the current series where he has outperformed the overrated Kohli but it is in ODIs where Babar outclasses him. Part of that is due to the fact that Babar hasn't had much competition from his fellow Pakistani batsmen whereas Rahul plays in one of the strongest batting teams in the world, but the fact remains that Babar is Pakistan's crown batting jewel in ODIs whereas Rahul is India's third-choice opener at best.

Babar doesn't need a power game. He scores at a good enough SR already and when the situation demands it, he can score at a high tempo when set.

Rahul is a good talent, but Babar is simply better. Now I will let you spend the next four months hating on Babar and eventually arguing that Umar Akmal is the superior batsman just because Babar Azam has come into the limelight. What a tedious routine.

 

[Arsalan Pro]

Looks like Kusal Mendis and Soumya Sarkar are not much of a contest for Babar and Rahul.

 

[Mamoon]

No one buys your shtick anymore. Whether it's Bhuveshnar, Shami, Rahane or Ashwin, the Indian is always better than his Pakistani counterpart simply because you like to rile up some of the other posters here. You are the most biased poster on this forum who absolutely cannot rank any Pakistani player or team above an Indian one so don't even talk about anyone else being biased.

Babar did not get runs in Australia but he looked quite assured for a guy playing his first test series there. His 90 in New Zealand is a far better achievement that Rahul's century in a series where tail-enders were scoring fifties for fun.

In tests, Rahul has done very well for himself, especially during the current series where he has outperformed the overrated Kohli but it is in ODIs where Babar outclasses him. Part of that is due to the fact that Babar hasn't had much competition from his fellow Pakistani batsmen whereas Rahul plays in one of the strongest batting teams in the world, but the fact remains that Babar is Pakistan's crown batting jewel in ODIs whereas Rahul is India's third-choice opener at best.

Babar doesn't need a power game. He scores at a good enough SR already and when the situation demands it, he can score at a high tempo when set.

Rahul is a good talent, but Babar is simply better. Now I will let you spend the next four months hating on Babar and eventually arguing that Umar Akmal is the superior batsman just because Babar Azam has come into the limelight. What a tedious routine.

KL Rahul has only played 6 ODIs, and none against minnows like Zimbabwe at home, so no question of him getting outperformed. Let him play 20-25 matches, and then we will see. However, he has a superior game than Babar in LOIs because he is not an accumulator like the latter. In Tests, he has already shown mental strength and great technique to stand tall when others are falling. Babar has played one great Test innings so far, KL Rahul has played plenty.

Babar has to improve his power hitting, otherwise he will end up like Amla and Williamson. Good stats but not enough impact. Obviously it's futile debating with someone who thinks that Pakistan is a better Test team than India in all three disciples, a team that is on a 6 match losing streak including a defeat in the UAE to West Indies.

No, I have no reason to hate on Babar. Don't put words in my mouth. Just because I think KL Rahul is better doesn't mean I don't like Babar, who can do everything Babar can and more. No comparison between Umar and Babar, the former is only more gifted when it comes to hitting, but the latter trumps him in technique, temperament and work ethic.

As for my bias for India is concerned, they have simply been a better team than Pakistan in all formats since the turn of the millennium, and since 2010, we have lost our edge in the pace bowling department as well. No shame in admitting that, and that's not bias. However, peddling myths of how Pakistan is still better than India and giving them superiority in man-to-man comparisons even though India do better across all formats is nothing but unadulterated bias and jingoism.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

As well as Babar has done it's hard to look past Rahul , he also appears to have more ability in terms of ball striking

However there is a couple of seasons of experience between the two, and those years can be crucial. Will be interesting to so where Babar is in 18 months

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

Babar Azam is a cut above. He's already a complete batsman at this young age while the others have technical flaws, mental issues they need to address before becoming the finished articles.

He isn't a compete batsman yet though, he can get there but he stills plants his feet against the spinners to early and he still needs to improve his power hitting vs pace

Mentally he hasn't figured out tests yet either, too keen to few bat on ball, though I reckon he just needs a big 100 to get under way

 

[Bilal7]

KL Rahul has only played 6 ODIs, and none against minnows like Zimbabwe at home, so no question of him getting outperformed. Let him play 20-25 matches, and then we will see. However, he has a superior game than Babar in LOIs because he is not an accumulator like the latter. In Tests, he has already shown mental strength and great technique to stand tall when others are falling. Babar has played one great Test innings so far, KL Rahul has played plenty.

Babar has to improve his power hitting, otherwise he will end up like Amla and Williamson. Good stats but not enough impact. Obviously it's futile debating with someone who thinks that Pakistan is a better Test team than India in all three disciples, a team that is on a 6 match losing streak including a defeat in the UAE to West Indies.

No, I have no reason to hate on Babar. Don't put words in my mouth. Just because I think KL Rahul is better doesn't mean I don't like Babar, who can do everything Babar can and more. No comparison between Umar and Babar, the former is only more gifted when it comes to hitting, but the latter trumps him in technique, temperament and work ethic.

As for my bias for India is concerned, they have simply been a better team than Pakistan in all formats since the turn of the millennium, and since 2010, we have lost our edge in the pace bowling department as well. No shame in admitting that, and that's not bias. However, peddling myths of how Pakistan is still better than India and giving them superiority in man-to-man comparisons even though India do better across all formats is nothing but unadulterated bias and jingoism.

Then how about you stop comparing the two when Rahul has only played six matches? Babar has proven that he can be a successful ODI bat, Rahul hasn't.

If Babar can turn out to be Pakistan's Kane or even better, our Amla, he'll enjoy a good run as the best batsman in the world, be a future ATG and Pakistan's greatest batsman. Being an all-conditions runs-scorer is a much better skill to have than being able to slog a few at the death, for a top order batsman. Several great batsmen simply could not slog blindly so it is not a weakness at all but in actuality, a strength because it ensures that the batsman never gets that urge to play a stupid shot and throw their wicket away.

A six match losing streak away, in New Zealand and Australia. We're not getting humiliated by the Australians of all people on pitches that have been tailor-made for our players. Pakistan has been the better test team than India ever since that 8:0 whitewash signaled the end of India's Fab 4 era. In ODIs, India are miles ahead and I have no problem accepting that. I give credit where credit is due unlike you.

I give it two months and then I gurantee that you will be hating on Babar. Your routine is very predictable. Again, India haven't been the better test team than Pakistan for years now. When the likes of Sachin, Dravid, VVS, Zaheer and Kumble were at their peak, they were better but never before and since those guys retired or went over the hill, normalcy has resumed and Pakistan has become the better team once again. Like we historically have been.

You are free to pander around to whoever you like. Just don't expect people to take you seriously when this is all you are doing. This isn't 2013.

 

[Bilal7]

He isn't a compete batsman yet though, he can get there but he stills plants his feet against the spinners to early and he still needs to improve his power hitting vs pace

Mentally he hasn't figured out tests yet either, too keen to few bat on ball, though I reckon he just needs a big 100 to get under way

He is a complete batsman. Power-hitting is an add-on of the T20 era, not a prerequisite to being a complete batsman.

He has tests figured out, don't be ridiculous. Whatever me and you know about cricket now, these guys knew when they were 12-13. He hasn't had the performances in tests yet but he's looked very confident and composed in his cameos and he'll start averaging 50+ in tests very soon. Probably by the end of the next series.

 

[BD-fan]

I like R Pant. Meaning "Other."

Mosaddek has a very high up side.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

He is a complete batsman. Power-hitting is an add-on of the T20 era, not a prerequisite to being a complete batsman.

He has tests figured out, don't be ridiculous. Whatever me and you know about cricket now, these guys knew when they were 12-13. He hasn't had the performances in tests yet but he's looked very confident and composed in his cameos and he'll start averaging 50+ in tests very soon. Probably by the end of the next series.

I don't want to get into semenatics, but as the game evolves so does the requirements of the game. Babar will be an amazing player for us but ignoring areas of improvement is stupid. It's clear his boundary hitting is lacking . I'm not asking him to become pollard but he has the examples of root, virat , and mike Hussey all of whom were not natural balls strikers but perfect in pretty much anything else. They still improved there hitting , and now are complete batsman, that's what Babar has to do

 

[Madplayer]

In terms of performaces till now, it has to be

1) KL Rahul

2)Babar Azam

KL rahul has shown that he can score a 25 ball 50 in t20s and also score a 200 ball 100 in tests. He hasn't got many opportunities in LOIs but one has to be blind to not see his ability in shorter formats from the limited opportunities he has had.

Babar Azam is one step away from becoming a one man match winner for Pakistan. He just needs - for the 1000th time - power hitting.

Babar is a player who plays the ball on merit. When the bowler bowls a boundary ball, he can hit it for a six or a four, no doubt. But can he hit sixes and fours when the team badly needs them?? When boundary balls are not being bowled and When muscular power is required to muscle the ball over the fence? I dont think so. Having said that, there is no reason why he shouldnt be able to overcome this by training harder and specifically for it.

 

[Mamoon]

Then how about you stop comparing the two when Rahul has only played six matches? Babar has proven that he can be a successful ODI bat, Rahul hasn't.

KL Rahul has nothing to prove; it's not as if he has failed in the 6 ODIs that he has played. He averages 50+ and has a hundred. He has already proved himself to be a superior batsman in Tests and T20Is, and only someone extremely biased will put him below Babar in ODIs just because he has played less. Like I said, he can do everything Babar can + he also has the ability to hit big shots, something Babar cannot do at the moment.

If Babar can turn out to be Pakistan's Kane or even better, our Amla, he'll enjoy a good run as the best batsman in the world, be a future ATG and Pakistan's greatest batsman. Being an all-conditions runs-scorer is a much better skill to have than being able to slog a few at the death, for a top order batsman. Several great batsmen simply could not slog blindly so it is not a weakness at all but in actuality, a strength because it ensures that the batsman never gets that urge to play a stupid shot and throw their wicket away.

Yes it is a weakness. You can live in your own little world where Amla is the second greatest ODI opener to walk the earth, but the fact is that his lack of ability to change gears is the major reason why most people don't rank him as highly as openers like Gilchrist, Sanath, Sehwag, Warner, de Kock etc. Due to the same reason, Williamson is considered an inferior ODI number 3 to Kohli, Smith and Root because the latter three have the ability to accelerate unlike him. Babar playing style at the moment is akin to batsmen like Amla and Williamson, which is good but not great in ODIs. Such batsmen have great stats but they are generally not impactful. KL Rahul on the other hand has the skill-set to be impactful, as he has shown it with his ability to play the big shots in both Tests and T20Is. However, he hasn't played enough ODIs yet to showcase it. It is a matter of when rather than if.

A six match losing streak away, in New Zealand and Australia. We're not getting humiliated by the Australians of all people on pitches that have been tailor-made for our players. Pakistan has been the better test team than India ever since that 8:0 whitewash signaled the end of India's Fab 4 era. In ODIs, India are miles ahead and I have no problem accepting that. I give credit where credit is due unlike you.

Yes keep peddling the myth that Pakistan is a better Test team than India. Since the turn of the millennium, Pakistan was only better for a year or so when India was phasing its previous generation out while Pakistan had a settled team. However, before that, India were much better and they are better now as well, in all three departments. The Australian team that toured the UAE in 2014 was different to this team. They had a weaker batting and bowling unit. Current Australian team can push Pakistan really hard in the UAE. If WI can, so can Australia.

I give it two months and then I gurantee that you will be hating on Babar. Your routine is very predictable. Again, India haven't been the better test team than Pakistan for years now. When the likes of Sachin, Dravid, VVS, Zaheer and Kumble were at their peak, they were better but never before and since those guys retired or went over the hill, normalcy has resumed and Pakistan has become the better team once again. Like we historically have been.

You are free to pander around to whoever you like. Just don't expect people to take you seriously when this is all you are doing. This isn't 2013.

I am not a blind supporter and hater like you, and I don't have favourites. As long as Babar is working hard and performing well, I will appreciate him. However, if he goes the Umar Akmal way, I won't defend him, just like you defend Ajmal to this day in spite of being called for chucking and passing pathetic statements, and how you defend Amla who has proved to be the biggest Limited Overs choker of his era. Once again, don't repeat yourself. Yes Pakistan has been a better Test team than India historically, but that hasn't been the case since the turn of the millennium barring for a year or so.

However, you are free to believe otherwise. After all, you do like to live in an alternative universe of yours where Amla is the second best ODI opener of all time, Younis is an ATG, Yasir is the best spinner in the world, Babar is better than KL Rahul, Junaid is a top class pacer and Ajmal is not a chucker. Keep believing that Pakistan is better than India in Tests in all disciples. Nonetheless, let's not talk about who is taken seriously and who isn't. The whole forum laughs at your ridiculous bias and blind support for your favourites.

 

[Mamoon]

I don't want to get into semenatics, but as the game evolves so does the requirements of the game. Babar will be an amazing player for us but ignoring areas of improvement is stupid. It's clear his boundary hitting is lacking . I'm not asking him to become pollard but he has the examples of root, virat , and mike Hussey all of whom were not natural balls strikers but perfect in pretty much anything else. They still improved there hitting , and now are complete batsman, that's what Babar has to do

In terms of performaces till now, it has to be

1) KL Rahul

2)Babar Azam

KL rahul has shown that he can score a 25 ball 50 in t20s and also score a 200 ball 100 in tests. He hasn't got many opportunities in LOIs but one has to be blind to not see his ability in shorter formats from the limited opportunities he has had.

Babar Azam is one step away from becoming a one man match winner for Pakistan. He just needs - for the 1000th time - power hitting.

Babar is a player who plays the ball on merit. When the bowler bowls a boundary ball, he can hit it for a six or a four, no doubt. But can he hit sixes and fours when the team badly needs them?? When boundary balls are not being bowled and When muscular power is required to muscle the ball over the fence? I dont think so. Having said that, there is no reason why he shouldnt be able to overcome this by training harder and specifically for it.

Please don't spell out facts for him, you are wasting your time and energy. Let him live in his parallel universe peacefully.

 

[Mamoon]

So according to Bilal7, it is a 'strength' for a top-order ODI batsman to NOT have the ability to hit big shots.

His logic is that this ensures that the batsman doesn't throw his wicket away recklessly, but conveniently chose to ignore that this also means that the batsman cannot win matches for his team when the target is very high and is practically useless when you are chasing say 50 in 30 balls.

 

[Bilal7]

I don't want to get into semenatics, but as the game evolves so does the requirements of the game. Babar will be an amazing player for us but ignoring areas of improvement is stupid. It's clear his boundary hitting is lacking . I'm not asking him to become pollard but he has the examples of root, virat , and mike Hussey all of whom were not natural balls strikers but perfect in pretty much anything else. They still improved there hitting , and now are complete batsman, that's what Babar has to do

Babar is already a complete batsman, but of course that does not mean he cannot improve. He has to if he must fulfill his promise. He definitely can hit boundaries when needed and isn't lacking in that aspect. Right now his boundary-hitting may be rated at 75-80 which makes it good enough. Of course, I want him to increase every facet of his batting to above 90.

 

[Rayyman]

So according to Bilal7, it is a 'strength' for a top-order ODI batsman to NOT have the ability to hit big shots.

His logic is that this ensures that the batsman doesn't throw his wicket away recklessly, but conveniently chose to ignore that this also means that the batsman cannot win matches for his team when the target is very high and is practically useless when you are chasing say 50 in 30 balls.

You don't need big shots to chase 50 in 30 LOL.

 

[Bilal7]

KL Rahul has nothing to prove; it's not as if he has failed in the 6 ODIs that he has played. He averages 50+ and has a hundred. He has already proved himself to be a superior batsman in Tests and T20Is, and only someone extremely biased will put him below Babar in ODIs just because he has played less. Like I said, he can do everything Babar can + he also has the ability to hit big shots, something Babar cannot do at the moment.


Yes it is a weakness. You can live in your own little world where Amla is the second greatest ODI opener to walk the earth, but the fact is that his lack of ability to change gears is the major reason why most people don't rank him as highly as openers like Gilchrist, Sanath, Sehwag, Warner, de Kock etc. Due to the same reason, Williamson is considered an inferior ODI number 3 to Kohli, Smith and Root because the latter three have the ability to accelerate unlike him. Babar playing style at the moment is akin to batsmen like Amla and Williamson, which is good but not great in ODIs. Such batsmen have great stats but they are generally not impactful. KL Rahul on the other hand has the skill-set to be impactful, as he has shown it with his ability to play the big shots in both Tests and T20Is. However, he hasn't played enough ODIs yet to showcase it. It is a matter of when rather than if.


Yes keep peddling the myth that Pakistan is a better Test team than India. Since the turn of the millennium, Pakistan was only better for a year or so when India was phasing its previous generation out while Pakistan had a settled team. However, before that, India were much better and they are better now as well, in all three departments. The Australian team that toured the UAE in 2014 was different to this team. They had a weaker batting and bowling unit. Current Australian team can push Pakistan really hard in the UAE. If WI can, so can Australia.


I am not a blind supporter and hater like you, and I don't have favourites. As long as Babar is working hard and performing well, I will appreciate him. However, if he goes the Umar Akmal way, I won't defend him, just like you defend Ajmal to this day in spite of being called for chucking and passing pathetic statements, and how you defend Amla who has proved to be the biggest Limited Overs choker of his era. Once again, don't repeat yourself. Yes Pakistan has been a better Test team than India historically, but that hasn't been the case since the turn of the millennium barring for a year or so.

However, you are free to believe otherwise. After all, you do like to live in an alternative universe of yours where Amla is the second best ODI opener of all time, Younis is an ATG, Yasir is the best spinner in the world, Babar is better than KL Rahul, Junaid is a top class pacer and Ajmal is not a chucker. Keep believing that Pakistan is better than India in Tests in all disciples. Nonetheless, let's not talk about who is taken seriously and who isn't. The whole forum laughs at your ridiculous bias and blind support for your favourites.

A guy who has only played six ODIs and isn't the first choice ODI opener for his team has nothing to prove? Genius.

I rate Babar ahead of Rahul because Babar has already shown that he has the ability to do well in a variety of conditions. Whether it is getting a hundred on a flat pitch in Australia, a 90 on a green lawn in New Zealand or multiple hundreds on low and slow pitches, Babar has shown he can succeed anywhere.

He may not be a Rohit Sharma when it comes to slogging trundlers on flat pitches but that is far less of a weakness for a #3 than it is for a #6. Babar won't be tasked with hitting out, his job is to score big runs at a good rate and/or see out the new ball and drop anchor and let the other batsmen bat around him.

Amla is most certainly a better ODI opener than all those guys for the simple reason that he scored more runs more frequently that they did. His SR has also been very good so it's not like he's been scoring those runs at a slow rate. If Babar can become our Amla, he'll be a future ATG and the best batsman in the world in a few years. Kane's problem is that he starts off very slowly, he is a different case.

Pakistan are most certainly the better test team and have been for some time now. India got destroyed by England home and away but Pakistan whitewashed them in the UAE and put an end to their best team of all time. India later lost badly to a weak English team in England, with Kohli having the series of his life. Pakistan went on to win two test matches in England and almost won the series. Pakistan destroyed an Australian team with Clarke and MJ among their ranks (laughable that you're calling this team weaker) in the UAE and India are well on their way to losing another series in India against the same opposition. Yet, India is the better test team. Genius. Not going to bring up the stats because that is beyond someone like you.

I stand by what I believe in, my opinions don't change with the wind and the players that I know have quality don't become crap overnight. Someone like you that has been a fan of Hafeez, Tanvir, Bell, Zulfiqar and Kamran really shouldn't be criticizing anyone else for living in an alternate reality.

So according to Bilal7, it is a 'strength' for a top-order ODI batsman to NOT have the ability to hit big shots.

His logic is that this ensures that the batsman doesn't throw his wicket away recklessly, but conveniently chose to ignore that this also means that the batsman cannot win matches for his team when the target is very high and is practically useless when you are chasing say 50 in 30 balls.

Yes, because a top order batsman will regularly encounter situations where they have to chase 50 runs for 30 balls. Because of course, batting in the top order actually means that you bat at #6 or #7

 

[Syed1]

Some PP'ers logic:


If Player A is of Pakistani origin then he can never be the best in anything and never better than Player B who is of Indian origin.




That is why this same poster rates Rahane higher than Azhar and Asad LMAO

Or how Bhuvneshwar Kumar is supposedly better than every Pakistani bowler LOLOLOL

Or how Ashwin is already an ATG despite having a gully mohallah average in most countries outside of India ROFL



It's a joke that such opinions are even entertained.

 

[Sachin136]

A guy who has only played six ODIs and isn't the first choice ODI opener for his team has nothing to prove? Genius.

I rate Babar ahead of Rahul because Babar has already shown that he has the ability to do well in a variety of conditions. Whether it is getting a hundred on a flat pitch in Australia, a 90 on a green lawn in New Zealand or multiple hundreds on low and slow pitches, Babar has shown he can succeed anywhere.

He may not be a Rohit Sharma when it comes to slogging trundlers on flat pitches but that is far less of a weakness for a #3 than it is for a #6. Babar won't be tasked with hitting out, his job is to score big runs at a good rate and/or see out the new ball and drop anchor and let the other batsmen bat around him.

Amla is most certainly a better ODI opener than all those guys for the simple reason that he scored more runs more frequently that they did. His SR has also been very good so it's not like he's been scoring those runs at a slow rate. If Babar can become our Amla, he'll be a future ATG and the best batsman in the world in a few years. Kane's problem is that he starts off very slowly, he is a different case.

Pakistan are most certainly the better test team and have been for some time now. India got destroyed by England home and away but Pakistan whitewashed them in the UAE and put an end to their best team of all time. India later lost badly to a weak English team in England, with Kohli having the series of his life. Pakistan went on to win two test matches in England and almost won the series. Pakistan destroyed an Australian team with Clarke and MJ among their ranks (laughable that you're calling this team weaker) in the UAE and India are well on their way to losing another series in India against the same opposition. Yet, India is the better test team. Genius. Not going to bring up the stats because that is beyond someone like you.

I stand by what I believe in, my opinions don't change with the wind and the players that I know have quality don't become crap overnight. Someone like you that has been a fan of Hafeez, Tanvir, Bell, Zulfiqar and Kamran really shouldn't be criticizing anyone else for living in an alternate reality.



Yes, because a top order batsman will regularly encounter situations where they have to chase 50 runs for 30 balls. Because of course, batting in the top order actually means that you bat at #6 or #7

If Pakistan beat England in the UAE last year, why are you talking about India's defeat 5 years back? England competed in the UAE, while they got demolished in India. You also very conveniently forgot the WI series. India beat WI in WI without breaking a sweat, and WI won a test and almost won another one in the UAE.

 

[Syed1]

If Pakistan beat England in the UAE last year, why are you talking about India's defeat 5 years back? England competed in the UAE, while they got demolished in India. You also very conveniently forgot the WI series. India beat WI in WI without breaking a sweat, and WI won a test and almost won another one in the UAE.

Yeah so records get washed out after 5 years?


England beat India in India whereas they have never won in UAE. Sure they got demolished this time in India doesn't change the fact that they have already notched up a win there but are yet to do so in UAE no matter how well they compete.

The WI in UAE series was an aberration and we will see it corrected in the oncoming series.

 

[Sachin136]

Yeah so records get washed out after 5 years?


England beat India in India whereas they have never won in UAE. Sure they got demolished this time in India doesn't change the fact that they have already notched up a win there but are yet to do so in UAE no matter how well they compete.

The WI in UAE series was an aberration and we will see it corrected in the oncoming series.

Is he arguing that Pakistan is a better test team than India right now, or were a better test team 5 years ago?

 

[Syed1]

Is he arguing that Pakistan is a better test team than India right now, or were a better test team 5 years ago?

Ok carry on


For the record, I don't think Pak is a better test team than India at the moment.

 

[TahirFan]

Dickwella

 

[Bilal7]

If Pakistan beat England in the UAE last year, why are you talking about India's defeat 5 years back? England competed in the UAE, while they got demolished in India. You also very conveniently forgot the WI series. India beat WI in WI without breaking a sweat, and WI won a test and almost won another one in the UAE.

I was referring to 2012 where they got Ajmauled before going on to bully Ashwin and co in India. That is around the time Pakistan became the better test team once again, despite losing their frontline bowlers a mere two years ago.

Later on, India got owned in England while only a Pakistani-origin English maestro saved England from a 3:1 home defeat at the hands of Pakistan.

Yes, West Indies played out of their skins against us but that doesn't prove anything. Pakistan are easily the better test team and one off-series against a team well below in rank and respect means nothing.

It will mean a huge deal if India lose this series against Australia when Pakistan destroyed these guys. Pakistan > India in tests. End of.

 

[Bilal7]

Some PP'ers logic:


If Player A is of Pakistani origin then he can never be the best in anything and never better than Player B who is of Indian origin.




That is why this same poster rates Rahane higher than Azhar and Asad LMAO

Or how Bhuvneshwar Kumar is supposedly better than every Pakistani bowler LOLOLOL

Or how Ashwin is already an ATG despite having a gully mohallah average in most countries outside of India ROFL



It's a joke that such opinions are even entertained.

Don't forget that Kamran is the next Gilchrist (still waiting for this transformation), Shah is not good enough (despite winning two matches in England, and several more in Asia) and all the other goodies he has come up with over the years.

Yet, a guy with 24 centuries, a 50+ average and a SR of 90 being called the second best opener in the world is pushing it.

 

[Mamoon]

Don't forget that Kamran is the next Gilchrist (still waiting for this transformation), Shah is not good enough (despite winning two matches in England, and several more in Asia) and all the other goodies he has come up with over the years.

Yet, a guy with 24 centuries, a 50+ average and a SR of 90 being called the second best opener in the world is pushing it.

So you are now resorting to lies to drive home your non-existent point?

That is what Ian Chappell said in 2004-05, when Kamran made a great start to his career with both bat and gloves, and I have brought that up when explaining how Kamran's career fell off after an excellent start.

You can't find a single post where I have said that Kamran will go on to emulate Gilchrist now, simply because I have never said that. All I have said is that his batting is better than what his stats suggest and perhaps playing him as a specialist batsman will improve his consistency because he is a confidence player and won't have the added pressure of keeping. However, out of your desperation to make a point, you have decided to lie and put words in my mouth.

Will respond to rest of the posts later, have to go now. I'm pretty sure it is going to be the usual crap that you keep on posting, but it is okay, will respond anyway.

 

[Mamoon]

Some PP'ers logic:


If Player A is of Pakistani origin then he can never be the best in anything and never better than Player B who is of Indian origin.

India produces better batsman than Pakistan. Always has and always will be, and there is no shame in admitting that. However, we have had considerable advantage over them in producing bowlers but we have lost that now. Calling KL Rahul better than Babar is stating a fact, and has nothing to do with pro-India bias or anti-Pakistan bias. If you are narrow-minded enough to believe that, go on.

That is why this same poster rates Rahane higher than Azhar and Asad LMAO

He is definitely better than Asad, but Azhar was outstanding in Australia and Rahane struggles for consistency at home. They are probably at par. Rahane although poor himself, is better than Azhar in ODIs.

Or how Bhuvneshwar Kumar is supposedly better than every Pakistani bowler LOLOLOL

Bhuvi was mostly compared to Junaid and he has proved to be better. He is lethal in swinging conditions which none of our pacers are, except for perhaps Sohail. However, Hasan Ali looks really good.

Or how Ashwin is already an ATG despite having a gully mohallah average in most countries outside of India ROFL

Again, putting words in mouth when you don't have a point. Ashwin isn't an ATG yet, but he is on his way. To be an ATG, he needs to perform overseas, which he probably will at some point. If he doesn't, he won't be an ATG. What's the problem?

It's a joke that such opinions are even entertained.

Yeah, the opinions that deserved to be entertained are the ones that put Pakistani players on a pedestal just because it is a Pakistani forum.

 

[Bilal7]

So you are now resorting to lies to drive home your non-existent point?

That is what Ian Chappell said in 2004-05, when Kamran made a great start to his career with both bat and gloves, and I have brought that up when explaining how Kamran's career fell off after an excellent start.

You can't find a single post where I have said that Kamran will go on to emulate Gilchrist now, simply because I have never said that. All I have said is that his batting is better than what his stats suggest and perhaps playing him as a specialist batsman will improve his consistency because he is a confidence player and won't have the added pressure of keeping. However, out of your desperation to make a point, you have decided to lie and put words in my mouth.

Will respond to rest of the posts later, have to go now. I'm pretty sure it is going to be the usual crap that you keep on posting, but it is okay, will respond anyway.

You clearly have said that Kamran was Pakistan's Gilchrist. I know because I was part of the group that made you wish you never joined this forum when you said that. I don't need to make things up to ridicule you. You are a magnet for ridicule every time you log onto this site.

You really don't have to iterate that "India is miles ahead of Pakistan in everything, Pakistan should not have won their independence, Junaid is crap, Yasir is crap, Babar is inferior". We all have it memorized by now so save your replies for the CT where Babar will be Pakistan's #3. Let's hope Rahul is India's first choice opener by then too.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

Babar is already a complete batsman, but of course that does not mean he cannot improve. He has to if he must fulfill his promise. He definitely can hit boundaries when needed and isn't lacking in that aspect. Right now his boundary-hitting may be rated at 75-80 which makes it good enough. Of course, I want him to increase every facet of his batting to above 90.

Well he isn't there then by your own logic . Let's Just simplify it like this : If Pakistan are chasing 200+ in a t20 does Babar's current approach work ? The answer is no, he needs to improve

HOWEVER - I'm not bashing him for this, he is the least of our problems and I'm confident he can improve like Root and Hussey.

 

[Bilal7]

Well he isn't there then by your own logic . Let's Just simplify it like this : If Pakistan are chasing 200+ in a t20 does Babar's current approach work ? The answer is no, he needs to improve

HOWEVER - I'm not bashing him for this, he is the least of our problems and I'm confident he can improve like Root and Hussey.

Being a complete batsman does not mean that you cannot get better. I didn't call him the perfect batsman, I called him a complete batsman in that he can play a wide variety of roles and bat in almost all sorts of conditions.

It was also in reference to tests and ODIs. I don't care how he does in T20s, we have enough hacks to win us another T20 WC, I bet. Tests and to a lesser extent, ODIs, are what matter.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

Being a complete batsman does not mean that you cannot get better. I didn't call him the perfect batsman, I called him a complete batsman in that he can play a wide variety of roles and bat in almost all sorts of conditions.

It was also in reference to tests and ODIs. I don't care how he does in T20s, we have enough hacks to win us another T20 WC, I bet. Tests and to a lesser extent, ODIs, are what matter.

Seperate topic but please let me know who theses hacks are, we need them. I agree t20s aren't an immediate concern but our current team (odi as well) is an accumulators 11

 

[Bilal7]

India produces better batsman than Pakistan. Always has and always will be, and there is no shame in admitting that. However, we have had considerable advantage over them in producing bowlers but we have lost that now. Calling KL Rahul better than Babar is stating a fact, and has nothing to do with pro-India bias or anti-Pakistan bias. If you are narrow-minded enough to believe that, go on.



He is definitely better than Asad, but Azhar was outstanding in Australia and Rahane struggles for consistency at home. They are probably at par. Rahane although poor himself, is better than Azhar in ODIs.



Bhuvi was mostly compared to Junaid and he has proved to be better. He is lethal in swinging conditions which none of our pacers are, except for perhaps Sohail. However, Hasan Ali looks really good.



Again, putting words in mouth when you don't have a point. Ashwin isn't an ATG yet, but he is on his way. To be an ATG, he needs to perform overseas, which he probably will at some point. If he doesn't, he won't be an ATG. What's the problem?



Yeah, the opinions that deserved to be entertained are the ones that put Pakistani players on a pedestal just because it is a Pakistani forum.

Miandad is better than any Indian batsman, barring Sachin and Gavasker. Younis is better than any Indian batsman, barring those two and arguably Dravid. Ditto with Inzamam and Yousuf.

Just because India have produced better batsmen overall, doesn't mean that individual Pakistani batsmen cannot be better than individual Indian batsmen. The reverse is also true. This is such a ridiculous line of thinking.

 

[Bilal7]

Seperate topic but please let me know who theses hacks are, we need them. I agree t20s aren't an immediate concern but our current team (odi as well) is an accumulators 11

Accumulation of runs is not a bad thing if it comes at a SR of 85+. I'd much rather have a team with four all-conditions accumulators rather than a team with four hacks who go missing every time the ball moves an inch.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

Accumulation of runs is not a bad thing if it comes at a SR of 85+. I'd much rather have a team with four all-conditions accumulators rather than a team with four hacks who go missing every time the ball moves an inch.

You still need at least one hack and at least one finisher, right now all the pressure for lower order hitting will be on an 18 year old kid . Name a successful team that is built 1 - 6 on accumulators ?

It's not like sarfraz who i love will be of much use if we need 50 from 25 balls. However in order to accomodate folks like professor, sarfraz will probably be batting at 6.

 

[Bilal7]

You still need at least one hack and at least one finisher, right now all the pressure for lower order hitting will be on an 18 year old kid . Name a successful team that is built 1 - 6 on accumulators ?

It's not like sarfraz who i love will be of much use if we need 50 from 25 balls. However in order to accomodate folks like professor, sarfraz will probably be batting at 6.

Of course you need a complete team. I said four, not six. Babar is doing his job perfectly, he'll keep improving but criticizing him for not doing the job of the lower order is extremely harsh. I know you aren't but [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] makes it seem like he is.

Babar, Haris before his injury, Sarfaraz are three good players who will each score 40-50 runs at a SR of 85-90 on average. That is great. Now if we can get them playing together and find a finisher down the order, our batting woes will end.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I have answered but you are running in circles. The fact that he wrongfully kept out of the ODI team for quite some time doesn't mean much apart from the fact that the Indian management misjudged Rahane's ability to play ODIs. Similarly, Babar should been a fixture in the team by 2014, but his debut was delayed because lesser players were hogging his position.

Secondly, statistics so early in their careers don't mean much. You have to look at potential. KL Rahul has shown more potential than Babar across formats - he has shown the ability to grind, accumulate and also explode, which Babar has failed to do so. There is no aspect of batting that Babar trumps KL Rahul in, but the latter has an extra gear which the former does not.

Thirdly, let Babar achieve 10% of what Tendulkar has achieved in his career and he will get brownie points for playing in a weaker batting lineup. There is no doubt that KL Rahul has a much better environment to thrive in. If Babar runs him close by the time both retire, we can safely say that KL Rahul edged him because of having superior teammates. However, at the moment, he is simply superior at an individual level.

Finally, the pitches for WI ODI series were flat. Much better than the usual ODI pitches in the UAE, and that is because we played on freshly prepared pitches. The fact that the Test series took place after the ODI series meant that the pitches for the ODI series had more pace and bounce than the usual UAE pitches, which is why we scored 284, 337 and 308. We don't have power-hitters, otherwise, those pitches were all 350+.

Do you think KL Rahul is not good enough to score runs against a bowling attack of Gabriel, Joseph, Narine, Holder etc., when he has a Test hundred in Australia, a 199 vs England and a T20I hundred in 50 balls vs WI, neither of which Babar has come close to achieving?

There is no point in being biased, but perhaps I'm flogging a dead horse. If KL Rahul was Pakistani and Babar was Indian, you would have had a completely different stance. KL Rahul is better than Babar in all aspects, and that is a fact. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Babar is fantastic in his own right and the best batting talent we have produced since MoYo.

Then kindly explain to me why does Rahul has a SR of 82 in ODIs and 73 in List A as compared to Babar's 91 and 83?

The only 100 Rahul has so far in ODIs was hit against the mighty bowling attack of Zimbabwe and even in that too his SR was 87. All 4 of Babar's hundreds have come at better SRs.

And what was Rahul's performance against England this year when teams were scoring 350s for fun? Even against the likes of Woakes, Willey, Ball, Plunkett (a nothing bowling attack and probably one of the worst in the world ATM) on bowling graveyard for bowlers, Rahul's highest score was 11.

Babar has a 100 against the best bowling attack in the world (Starc, Hazlewood, and Cummins) in their own backyard, scored 2 excellent 50s against NZ in NZ when the chips were down.

Babar has been simply better than Rahul in ODIs without that imaginary extra gear that you have been mentioning in every post of yours. Babar has played more ODI games, scored more runs against better bowling attacks in all types of conditions, yet Rahul is a better batsman. Even in tests, Babar is going to surpass Rahul if he plays more games in the UAE.

I am sorry my friend but you are the one who is blinded by your delusions and come up with ridiculous statements like Ashwin is an iconic cricketer.

 

[Mamoon]

You clearly have said that Kamran was Pakistan's Gilchrist. I know because I was part of the group that made you wish you never joined this forum when you said that. I don't need to make things up to ridicule you. You are a magnet for ridicule every time you log onto this site.

Please refer me to the post where I compared Kamran and Gilchrist other than in the context which I have already addressed. Obviously, you will back out now claiming that 'you don't have the time to do so' as you always do when you are caught lying with your pants down. Here is a tip, don't chicken out after lying.

You really don't have to iterate that "India is miles ahead of Pakistan in everything, Pakistan should not have won their independence, Junaid is crap, Yasir is crap, Babar is inferior". We all have it memorized by now so save your replies for the CT where Babar will be Pakistan's #3. Let's hope Rahul is India's first choice opener by then too.

Rohit is India's first choice opener and rightly so. He is world class, and KL Rahul might prove to be better than him in the future, but not yet.

 

[Mamoon]

Miandad is better than any Indian batsman, barring Sachin and Gavasker. Younis is better than any Indian batsman, barring those two and arguably Dravid. Ditto with Inzamam and Yousuf.

Just because India have produced better batsmen overall, doesn't mean that individual Pakistani batsmen cannot be better than individual Indian batsmen. The reverse is also true. This is such a ridiculous line of thinking.

)

This is exactly why you are taken as a joke on this forum. Your propensity to overrate your favorites is ridiculous. Younis is not close to Dravid, and that is a universal fact. It is not even 'arguable'. Tendulkar and Gavaskar are the two best to merge from the Subcontinent, at least we can both agree on that. However, in every generation India has had better batsmen than Pakistan, which is why they have always been ahead in the batting department. Who said Pakistan has not produced good batsmen? They have, but only one proper ATG (Miandad), while India have three ATGs so far and Kohli is on his way.

 

[Bilal7]

Please refer me to the post where I compared Kamran and Gilchrist other than in the context which I have already addressed. Obviously, you will back out now claiming that 'you don't have the time to do so' as you always do when you are caught lying with your pants down. Here is a tip, don't chicken out after lying.


Rohit is India's first choice opener and rightly so. He is world class, and KL Rahul might prove to be better than him in the future, but not yet.

Yes, because unlike you I value my time and cannot go sifting through pages of old posts in order to find specific quotes. No context whatsoever explains why anyone would attempt to compare Kamran Akmal with a legend like Gilly. I will definitely take tips from you, since you are after all, the master of being caught with your pants down.

He would be quite average if he doesn't make the team ahead of Dhawan.

 

[Mamoon]

A guy who has only played six ODIs and isn't the first choice ODI opener for his team has nothing to prove? Genius.

He is not the first choice opener for India because India have Rohit, who is better than any ODI opener Pakistan has ever produced barring Saeed Anwar (perhaps). Being second fiddle to someone like him doesn't mean anything, and who knows, he might overtake him in the future.

I rate Babar ahead of Rahul because Babar has already shown that he has the ability to do well in a variety of conditions. Whether it is getting a hundred on a flat pitch in Australia, a 90 on a green lawn in New Zealand or multiple hundreds on low and slow pitches, Babar has shown he can succeed anywhere.

KL Rahul has succeeded in every conditions as well, including a Test hundred in Australia on his debut series. Same place where Babar failed. Now please don't bring the flat pitch logic, because on the pitches where Babar failed, our so-called world class bowling attack was ripped into pieces. So far, Babar has only played one good Test innings; KL Rahul has played several, and he has shown more versatility as well.

He has accumulated runs and also powered his way to a 50 ball ton in T20Is. He is simply a superior and versatile batsman compared to Babar unless you live in a parallel universe, which you clearly do. Same universe where Miller, McLaren and Duminy are better hitters than Dhoni and de Villiers. Yes, that is why no one takes you seriously.

He may not be a Rohit Sharma when it comes to slogging trundlers on flat pitches but that is far less of a weakness for a #3 than it is for a #6. Babar won't be tasked with hitting out, his job is to score big runs at a good rate and/or see out the new ball and drop anchor and let the other batsmen bat around him.

If he becomes a Rohit Sharma in ODIs, Pakistan will be extremely blessed. He most definitely has to develop his power hitting to improve his impact in ODIs. That again, is a non-debatable fact.

Amla is most certainly a better ODI opener than all those guys for the simple reason that he scored more runs more frequently that they did. His SR has also been very good so it's not like he's been scoring those runs at a slow rate. If Babar can become our Amla, he'll be a future ATG and the best batsman in the world in a few years. Kane's problem is that he starts off very slowly, he is a different case.

If Babar becomes our Amla, Pakistan will never win any ICC tournament again. Amla is below openers like Jayasuriya and Gilchrist, well below.

Pakistan are most certainly the better test team and have been for some time now. India got destroyed by England home and away but Pakistan whitewashed them in the UAE and put an end to their best team of all time. India later lost badly to a weak English team in England, with Kohli having the series of his life. Pakistan went on to win two test matches in England and almost won the series. Pakistan destroyed an Australian team with Clarke and MJ among their ranks (laughable that you're calling this team weaker) in the UAE and India are well on their way to losing another series in India against the same opposition. Yet, India is the better test team. Genius. Not going to bring up the stats because that is beyond someone like you.

Clarke was past it when Australia toured the UAE and he retired shortly after. His back was done. Similarly, Johnson is not much of a threat on Asian pitches. Current Australian attack is more skilled and versatile, and they have a stronger batting lineup. India also hasn't lost a Test match in Zimbabwe and neither did they get whitewashed in South Africa and Australia. In addition, they haven't lost a home Test to WI either while both have been good in Sri Lanka, although we did get whitewashed their in 2014. As I said before, Pakistan were a better Test team than India during the 2012-2013 period when they were in transition, but apart from that, they have been better. One series in England doesn't override the fact that they have done better than us in Australia and South Africa, and currently have the best top 5 in the world.

I stand by what I believe in, my opinions don't change with the wind and the players that I know have quality don't become crap overnight. Someone like you that has been a fan of Hafeez, Tanvir, Bell, Zulfiqar and Kamran really shouldn't be criticizing anyone else for living in an alternate reality.

And a person who believes that Miller, Duminy and McLaren are better hitters than de Villiers should be criticizing others for living in an alternate reality? Let's not go there. We know why you support players you like. Standing by what you believe in means nothing when you are biased. You clearly refuse to acknowledge that you were wrong about Ajmal not chucking and that you are delusional to think that Junaid can rediscover his old form. If you don't have the capacity to call a spade what it is, don't take pride in standing by your opinions, because it really doesn't mean anything. You come across as biased and that is why no one takes you seriously.

Yes, because a top order batsman will regularly encounter situations where they have to chase 50 runs for 30 balls. Because of course, batting in the top order actually means that you bat at #6 or #7

What a gem. This surely takes the cake.

No, a top order batsmen doesn't always encounter a situation where he has to chase down a total unless he is Kohli, but when such a situation arises, his inability to slog means that he often fails to chase down big totals, which is what Amla does, so how is it a 'strength'? ) What is it his strength when he failed to chase down 30 in 30 balls vs Pakistan?

 

[Mamoon]

Yes, because unlike you I value my time and cannot go sifting through pages of old posts in order to find specific quotes. No context whatsoever explains why anyone would attempt to compare Kamran Akmal with a legend like Gilly. I will definitely take tips from you, since you are after all, the master of being caught with your pants down.

Yes, I didn't predict that. As usual, chickening out when put under the spotlight. tsk tsk.

He would be quite average if he doesn't make the team ahead of Dhawan.

Yes, same mediocre Dhawan who is better than any opener Pakistan has ever produced barring Saeed Anwar. If he was Pakistani, he would already be a Pakistani ODI great, but in India, he is considered mediocre and will not play ahead of KL Rahul from here on. This is the gulf in class between Indian and Pakistani batting.

 

[Bilal7]

)

This is exactly why you are taken as a joke on this forum. Your propensity to overrate your favorites is ridiculous. Younis is not close to Dravid, and that is a universal fact. It is not even 'arguable'. Tendulkar and Gavaskar are the two best to merge from the Subcontinent, at least we can both agree on that. However, in every generation India has had better batsmen than Pakistan, which is why they have always been ahead in the batting department. Who said Pakistan has not produced good batsmen? They have, but only one proper ATG (Miandad), while India have three ATGs so far and Kohli is on his way.

Once again, the joke of the forum is the guy who rates Tanvir as "our best T20 bowler", who compares Kamran to Gilchrist, who says that Ashwin will be an ATG, who has built up a reputation as a totally miserable wrist-slitter and who has admitting to having a "slave mentality" and said that Pakistan should not have earned their independence.

Younis Khan's numbers and performances speak for himself and he's definitely as good as Dravid and Sangakkara from Asia. Regardless, the point of that post was not to discuss Khan's credentials and pit them against Dravid's but in fact, was to prove that individual Pakistani batsmen can and have gone on to be better than individual Indian batsmen. Babar definitely can have a better career than Rahul, despite being a Pakistani.

 

[Mamoon]

Then kindly explain to me why does Rahul has a SR of 82 in ODIs and 73 in List A as compared to Babar's 91 and 83?

He has only played 6 ODIs, I am not looking into his SR much because he has already shown that he has the ability to up the ante and do power hitting. Something that Babar lacks at the moment, because he is more of an accumulator.

Not interested in domestic stats. If I were, I would not be advocating for Babar to be in the Test team, given his mediocre F/C stats. However, he is a young player who is still developing. Domestic stats of 20 year old batsmen tell us nothing, you have to look at potential. Both KL Rahul and Babar have been picked due to their immense potential.

The only 100 Rahul has so far in ODIs was hit against the mighty bowling attack of Zimbabwe and even in that too his SR was 87. All 4 of Babar's hundreds have come at better SRs.

Again, only 6 matches. How many tons did Babar have after 6 matches, and what was QdK's record after 10-15 matches, who is one of the best ODI openers around? Judge young players by potential, not by stats. At this stage, stats mean nothing. Otherwise, Amir would be considered worse than Umar Gul.

And what was Rahul's performance against England this year when teams were scoring 350s for fun? Even against the likes of Woakes, Willey, Ball, Plunkett (a nothing bowling attack and probably one of the worst in the world ATM) on bowling graveyard for bowlers, Rahul's highest score was 11.

Once again, 6 ODIs only. Player can go through bad patches, it doesn't mean anything. He will go through bad patches in the future and so will Babar.

Babar has a 100 against the best bowling attack in the world (Starc, Hazlewood, and Cummins) in their own backyard, scored 2 excellent 50s against NZ in NZ when the chips were down.

Babar is a very good ODI batsman, but he lacks impact at the moment because he cannot accelerate. He is an accumulator who gets out when he tries to hit big. It is something he has to improve on.

Babar has been simply better than Rahul in ODIs without that imaginary extra gear that you have been mentioning in every post of yours. Babar has played more ODI games, scored more runs against better bowling attacks in all types of conditions, yet Rahul is a better batsman. Even in tests, Babar is going to surpass Rahul if he plays more games in the UAE.

It is not an imaginary extra gear. Can Babar scored 120 in 60 balls in a T20I? No he cannot. KL Rahul is a much better striker, and he has shown that in Tests as well. He hits the ball long and far, and he will show that when he plays more ODIs.

I am sorry my friend but you are the one who is blinded by your delusions and come up with ridiculous statements like Ashwin is an iconic cricketer.

Says the guy who thinks Waqar Younis is not an ATG, and Kohli and Dhoni are the only two Indian players who are good enough to get picked in the PSL. Yes, Ashwin is an iconic cricketer. He is the premier bowler of India who command the biggest fan following in the game and he is breaking a lot of bowling records.

 

[Mamoon]

Once again, the joke of the forum is the guy who rates Tanvir as "our best T20 bowler", who compares Kamran to Gilchrist, who says that Ashwin will be an ATG, who has built up a reputation as a totally miserable wrist-slitter and who has admitting to having a "slave mentality" and said that Pakistan should not have earned their independence.

Yes, tell that to Ian Chappell why he compared Kamran to Gilchrist in 2004. If you watched cricket back then, you would understand the context of the comparison. However, I don't think you watched cricket before 2010, which is why you have a hard time understanding why Dravid is a superior Test batsman to Younis and why the likes of Gilchrist and Sanath were much better ODI openers than Amla. As for me being a joke, please create a poll on PP and ask who is a bigger joke, me or you. If more than 30% of the folks vote for me, I will happily concede that I'm a bigger joke than someone who thinks that McLaren is a bigger hitter than de Villiers, Younis is better than Dravid, Amla is the second best ODI opener of all time, Ajmal isn't a chucker and Pakistan is a better team than India in all disciples.

Younis Khan's numbers and performances speak for himself and he's definitely as good as Dravid and Sangakkara from Asia. Regardless, the point of that post was not to discuss Khan's credentials and pit them against Dravid's but in fact, was to prove that individual Pakistani batsmen can and have gone on to be better than individual Indian batsmen. Babar definitely can have a better career than Rahul, despite being a Pakistani.

No he isn't better than Dravid and Sangakkara.

Babar won't have a better LOIs career than KL Rahul unless he improves his hitting. In Tests, he can be better, but it will be difficult.

 

[Bilal7]

He is not the first choice opener for India because India have Rohit, who is better than any ODI opener Pakistan has ever produced barring Saeed Anwar (perhaps). Being second fiddle to someone like him doesn't mean anything, and who knows, he might overtake him in the future.


KL Rahul has succeeded in every conditions as well, including a Test hundred in Australia on his debut series. Same place where Babar failed. Now please don't bring the flat pitch logic, because on the pitches where Babar failed, our so-called world class bowling attack was ripped into pieces. So far, Babar has only played one good Test innings; KL Rahul has played several, and he has shown more versatility as well.

He has accumulated runs and also powered his way to a 50 ball ton in T20Is. He is simply a superior and versatile batsman compared to Babar unless you live in a parallel universe, which you clearly do. Same universe where Miller, McLaren and Duminy are better hitters than Dhoni and de Villiers. Yes, that is why no one takes you seriously.


If he becomes a Rohit Sharma in ODIs, Pakistan will be extremely blessed. He most definitely has to develop his power hitting to improve his impact in ODIs. That again, is a non-debatable fact.


If Babar becomes our Amla, Pakistan will never win any ICC tournament again. Amla is below openers like Jayasuriya and Gilchrist, well below.


Clarke was past it when Australia toured the UAE and he retired shortly after. His back was done. Similarly, Johnson is not much of a threat on Asian pitches. Current Australian attack is more skilled and versatile, and they have a stronger batting lineup. India also hasn't lost a Test match in Zimbabwe and neither did they get whitewashed in South Africa and Australia. In addition, they haven't lost a home Test to WI either while both have been good in Sri Lanka, although we did get whitewashed their in 2014. As I said before, Pakistan were a better Test team than India during the 2012-2013 period when they were in transition, but apart from that, they have been better. One series in England doesn't override the fact that they have done better than us in Australia and South Africa, and currently have the best top 5 in the world.



And a person who believes that Miller, Duminy and McLaren are better hitters than de Villiers should be criticizing others for living in an alternate reality? Let's not go there. We know why you support players you like. Standing by what you believe in means nothing when you are biased. You clearly refuse to acknowledge that you were wrong about Ajmal not chucking and that you are delusional to think that Junaid can rediscover his old form. If you don't have the capacity to call a spade what it is, don't take pride in standing by your opinions, because it really doesn't mean anything. You come across as biased and that is why no one takes you seriously.



What a gem. This surely takes the cake.

No, a top order batsmen doesn't always encounter a situation where he has to chase down a total unless he is Kohli, but when such a situation arises, his inability to slog means that he often fails to chase down big totals, which is what Amla does, so how is it a 'strength'? ) What is it his strength when he failed to chase down 30 in 30 balls vs Pakistan?

Rohit Sharma is nowhere near Saeed Anwar. He's a FTB, like Warner, and would get eaten alive if he played during Anwar's time, just like he fails whenever the ball moves an inch in this era. Being the hypocrite that you are, you would call Warner out for being a FTB but glorify Rohit.

The pitches that India and Pakistan got were definitely not the same. The Australians were tired of run-fests which is why the pitches for both the series against South Africa and Pakistan were played on more balanced tracks. Of course, you would no nothing about this because you are so far up yours that things like facts, stats and reality don't really matter.

Babar's innings is better than anything Rahul has displayed. Apparently, Rahul has nothing to prove despite having played all of six matches with zero performance of note in any them. Yet, Babar's fantastic innings is not good enough for you? Double standards at their finest.

Pakistan would crush this team in the UAE. You must have hit a new plane of idiocy to believe otherwise. Younis Khan would eat their spinners alive and Shah would do what he did before.

30 off 30? I thought it was 50 off 30? Your imaginary tests are just that, imaginary. Babar will rarely be in such a position because either he'll have a lower order batsman hitting a cameo in support of his run-a-ball hundred or Pakistan would have already lost the match by then.

When he does, go figure. Pakistan is ranked #8/#9 in ODIs and needs to find good batsmen to first become a good ODI team. Then they can worry about chasing down 350 runs in an ODI. The fact that after all this time, that one random ODI is the only example you have of a top order batsman needing to hit out tells me that it just doesn't occur frequently enough to be a problem.

 

[The_Odd_One]

He has only played 6 ODIs, I am not looking into his SR much because he has already shown that he has the ability to up the ante and do power hitting. Something that Babar lacks at the moment, because he is more of an accumulator.

Not interested in domestic stats. If I were, I would not be advocating for Babar to be in the Test team, given his mediocre F/C stats. However, he is a young player who is still developing. Domestic stats of 20 year old batsmen tell us nothing, you have to look at potential. Both KL Rahul and Babar have been picked due to their immense potential.


Again, only 6 matches. How many tons did Babar have after 6 matches, and what was QdK's record after 10-15 matches, who is one of the best ODI openers around? Judge young players by potential, not by stats. At this stage, stats mean nothing. Otherwise, Amir would be considered worse than Umar Gul.


Once again, 6 ODIs only. Player can go through bad patches, it doesn't mean anything. He will go through bad patches in the future and so will Babar.


Babar is a very good ODI batsman, but he lacks impact at the moment because he cannot accelerate. He is an accumulator who gets out when he tries to hit big. It is something he has to improve on.


It is not an imaginary extra gear. Can Babar scored 120 in 60 balls in a T20I? No he cannot. KL Rahul is a much better striker, and he has shown that in Tests as well. He hits the ball long and far, and he will show that when he plays more ODIs.


Says the guy who thinks Waqar Younis is not an ATG, and Kohli and Dhoni are the only two Indian players who are good enough to get picked in the PSL. Yes, Ashwin is an iconic cricketer. He is the premier bowler of India who command the biggest fan following in the game and he is breaking a lot of bowling records.

You should not have really typed a long post when all you had to say is that Rahul has played just 6 ODIs so let's not judge him based on such a small sample size. However, the hypocrisy is mind-boggling when you keep mentioning that extra gear like a broken clock based on one T20 against WI in Florida on a pitch that produced almost 500 runs in a T20 game, the most in any T20 game (not just internationals).

I have no problem if someone believes that Rahul is a better batsman. He might be. We just do not know at this point because both Babar and Rahul have a very small sample size. However, I have a problem if someone calls others delusional if they do not agree to your viewpoint. If the sample size is too low, then you should stop passing judgments.

Babar is the joint fastest to 1K runs in ODIs. He has simply done better than Rahul in ODIs. It is not his fault if Rahul has not played enough ODIs. When he has played and performed better, then you should call him better than Babar.

Even in tests, if Rahul has a 100 in Australia on an absolute graveyard which produced 4 100s and a 90 score in the first 2 innings. Babar has a 90 not out score in NZ on a much much tougher pitch where the next highest scorer was 55 from both sides in their first inning. His inning was far better than Rahul's. 100 is just a number here. Babar could have easily scored a 100 if he had not run out of partners.

At least I am not a liar and a hypocrite. My list of Indian players to play in IPL had Kohli, Sharma, Dhoni, Yuvraj, and Bumrah which you cleverly truncated to just Kohli and Dhoni. Considering that PSL has just 5 teams, you can't really play Indian players just because they are Indian. Ashwin won't find a place because Pakistan has a plethora of local spinners and then there are Badree and Narine who are far better than Ashwin in LOs. Ashwin breaking records is laughable. Yasir was also breaking records when he was solely playing in Asia.

I am consistent in my views and use the same criteria to judge players unlike you. I do not call Devilliers soft and on the other hand call Waqar an ATG who single handedly lost Pakistan the 96 WC and has zero WC performances, poor test performances against top teams, etc.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Soumya is the cleanest striker of the ball.

Mendis is very good all around. Not sure where to place him.

Rahul is the most complete at the moment.

But Babar has faster hands, gets more leverage and a better timer of the ball. He has to correct a few technical issues to fully play to his potential. He's probably gonna end scoring the most runs. Simply a run machine.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Soumya is the cleanest striker of the ball.

Mendis is very good all around. Not sure where to place him.

Rahul is the most complete at the moment.

But Babar has faster hands, gets more leverage and a better timer of the ball. He has to correct a few technical issues to fully play to his potential. He's probably gonna end scoring the most runs. Simply a run machine.

beautifully put. agreed

 

[Mamoon]

Rohit Sharma is nowhere near Saeed Anwar. He's a FTB, like Warner, and would get eaten alive if he played during Anwar's time, just like he fails whenever the ball moves an inch in this era. Being the hypocrite that you are, you would call Warner out for being a FTB but glorify Rohit.

Talk about comprehension fail and missing the point completely. Indeed Rohit is a FTB like Warner, but who is talking about Tests here? Rohit like Warner, is not a high class Test batsman but he is a brilliant ODI opener. ODI pitches are flat everywhere, and have been for years and years now. Even in the 90's, most ODI pitches were flat. Both Rohit and Warner and Guptill - all FTBs - are better ODI openers than anyone Pakistan has ever produced barring perhaps Saeed Anwar. However, the latter is a better Test opener than all.

The pitches that India and Pakistan got were definitely not the same. The Australians were tired of run-fests which is why the pitches for both the series against South Africa and Pakistan were played on more balanced tracks. Of course, you would no nothing about this because you are so far up yours that things like facts, stats and reality don't really matter.

Same old rubbish. No, the pitches were flat for both teams. Besides, what does it say about the so-called great Pakistani bowling attack, who got smashed on 'balanced' tracks? Oh yes, you will now avoid this banana skin by coming up with a list of excuses, i.e. Yasir bowled well in the first game, got unlucky, Amir had dropped catches, the bowlers lost confidence because the batsmen collapsed, but this happened, but that happened, if this wouldn't have happened, that would have happened etc. etc. etc. So stats and reality don't matter to you now, do they? Yet you have the audacity to call me a hypocrite. Talk about irony.

Babar's innings is better than anything Rahul has displayed. Apparently, Rahul has nothing to prove despite having played all of six matches with zero performance of note in any them. Yet, Babar's fantastic innings is not good enough for you? Double standards at their finest.

It was a great innings, but he has one good innings in Test cricket so far. KL Rahul has plenty, and he also has a T20I hundred. In fact, KL Rahul has a hundred in all three formats already. He is simply better than Babar and has had a better start to his career across formats. Babar has been better in ODIs, but KL Rahul has only played 6 ODIs yet, and he has shown that he is a complete batsman. Obviously, at the end of their careers, the only thing that matters would be performances and runs, not who is complete, but so far based on their performances in all three formats, it is clear that KL Rahul is superior to Babar.

Pakistan would crush this team in the UAE. You must have hit a new plane of idiocy to believe otherwise. Younis Khan would eat their spinners alive and Shah would do what he did before.

Yes, like they crushed the WI and were 20 seconds away from losing the Abu Dhabi Test to England. Pakistan has not come close to the dominance the showed in the UAE vs Australia, clearly that was more down to how poor Australia were in that series. Pakistan has failed to beat South Africa twice, they have also lost a Test to NZ and although they beat England twice, most of the matches were quite competitive. It is delusional to think that Pakistan will walk over Australia again considering the fact that they have not exhibited such dominance in any other series in the UAE. What happened to Australia in the 2014 was an exception; the visiting teams in the UAE are generally more competitive than that.

30 off 30? I thought it was 50 off 30? Your imaginary tests are just that, imaginary. Babar will rarely be in such a position because either he'll have a lower order batsman hitting a cameo in support of his run-a-ball hundred or Pakistan would have already lost the match by then.

30 in 30 happened in reality to Amla against Pakistan; 50 of 30 was a hypothetical scenario where accumulators tend to struggle. I really hope he has more guts under pressure than Amla, otherwise his lack of power-hitting will cost Pakistan. If he doesn't improve on that, he will be forever banking on the other batsman to produce a dynamic innings at the death to chase down big totals, instead of taking charge himself, which truly great players do. Amla has failed on that front which is why he is not a top class ODI batsman in spite of the stats, and Babar will fall in the same category if he doesn't improve his hitting. To claim that he doesn't need to improve on that is nonsense. The only reason you are so defensive on this issue is because you don't want to acknowledge an obvious weakness in Amla's game.

When he does, go figure. Pakistan is ranked #8/#9 in ODIs and needs to find good batsmen to first become a good ODI team. Then they can worry about chasing down 350 runs in an ODI. The fact that after all this time, that one random ODI is the only example you have of a top order batsman needing to hit out tells me that it just doesn't occur frequently enough to be a problem.

Of course Babar is like fresh air for our poor ODI team. However, this doesn't mean that he is a complete batsman already and doesn't have anything to improve on, which is what you seem to be implying.

 

[Mamoon]

You should not have really typed a long post when all you had to say is that Rahul has played just 6 ODIs so let's not judge him based on such a small sample size. However, the hypocrisy is mind-boggling when you keep mentioning that extra gear like a broken clock based on one T20 against WI in Florida on a pitch that produced almost 500 runs in a T20 game, the most in any T20 game (not just internationals).

I have no problem if someone believes that Rahul is a better batsman. He might be. We just do not know at this point because both Babar and Rahul have a very small sample size. However, I have a problem if someone calls others delusional if they do not agree to your viewpoint. If the sample size is too low, then you should stop passing judgments.

Babar is the joint fastest to 1K runs in ODIs. He has simply done better than Rahul in ODIs. It is not his fault if Rahul has not played enough ODIs. When he has played and performed better, then you should call him better than Babar.

Even in tests, if Rahul has a 100 in Australia on an absolute graveyard which produced 4 100s and a 90 score in the first 2 innings. Babar has a 90 not out score in NZ on a much much tougher pitch where the next highest scorer was 55 from both sides in their first inning. His inning was far better than Rahul's. 100 is just a number here. Babar could have easily scored a 100 if he had not run out of partners.

At least I am not a liar and a hypocrite. My list of Indian players to play in IPL had Kohli, Sharma, Dhoni, Yuvraj, and Bumrah which you cleverly truncated to just Kohli and Dhoni. Considering that PSL has just 5 teams, you can't really play Indian players just because they are Indian. Ashwin won't find a place because Pakistan has a plethora of local spinners and then there are Badree and Narine who are far better than Ashwin in LOs. Ashwin breaking records is laughable. Yasir was also breaking records when he was solely playing in Asia.

I am consistent in my views and use the same criteria to judge players unlike you. I do not call Devilliers soft and on the other hand call Waqar an ATG who single handedly lost Pakistan the 96 WC and has zero WC performances, poor test performances against top teams, etc.

Only Kohli and Sharma and may be Bumrah

The truth is Indian players are not that great in T20s.

So, the 5 players who have guaranteed to very high chances of getting picked are:

1. Kohli
2. Sharma
3. Dhoni
4. Yuvraj
5. Bumrah

Such consistency.

Jokes aside, like I said, KL Rahul has proved himself to be a more complete batsman. He has hundreds in all three formats and he has shown that he can both grind and slog. Babar played a brilliant innings in NZ but he failed on flat pitches in Australia, while KL Rahul scored a hundred. It is an undeniable fact. Please note that I'm not criticizing Babar for not scoring runs in Australia. I know my cricket and I know that not everyone can score in places like Australia on their first tour, even if the wickets are flat. It is a stern test of mentality, which makes KL Rahul even more impressive.

And lol at Waqar not being an ATG. That is ridiculous.

 

[Hamza_]

Such consistency.

Jokes aside, like I said, KL Rahul has proved himself to be a more complete batsman. He has hundreds in all three formats and he has shown that he can both grind and slog. Babar played a brilliant innings in NZ but he failed on flat pitches in Australia, while KL Rahul scored a hundred. It is an undeniable fact. Please note that I'm not criticizing Babar for not scoring runs in Australia. I know my cricket and I know that not everyone can score in places like Australia on their first tour, even if the wickets are flat. It is a stern test of mentality, which makes KL Rahul even more impressive.

And lol at Waqar not being an ATG. That is ridiculous.

I think Babar fell to Hazlewood in Australian series who was on top of his game at that moment. Will certainly amend his record next time he plays in Australia, Back him to come good, Very solid player who knows his batting.

 

[Mamoon]

I think Babar fell to Hazlewood in Australian series who was on top of his game at that moment. Will certainly amend his record next time he plays in Australia, Back him to come good, Very solid player who knows his batting.

True. He has all the ingredients of a top Test batsman, it is only a matter of experience. However, he definitely needs to improve his ball striking in order to be truly impactful in Limited Overs.

 

[Hamza_]

True. He has all the ingredients of a top Test batsman, it is only a matter of experience. However, he definitely needs to improve his ball striking in order to be truly impactful in Limited Overs.

I've watched his all three hundreds against west indies, This was the only issue I did notice about Babar.

Whenever he tried to accelerate he wasn't really able to do it in full flow, Even after getting a hundred he could not finish it off with something even more substantial which is due to lack of power game and ball striking. Even though you would expect a batsman who is all set and has gone past hundred runs to get on top of the opposition and take the game away completely.

However, Babar has been backed by Mickey Arthur and I'm sure he would have certainly noticed this key area in his limited overs game as well, So maybe we can expect improvement on that front.

 

[Bilal7]

Talk about comprehension fail and missing the point completely. Indeed Rohit is a FTB like Warner, but who is talking about Tests here? Rohit like Warner, is not a high class Test batsman but he is a brilliant ODI opener. ODI pitches are flat everywhere, and have been for years and years now. Even in the 90's, most ODI pitches were flat. Both Rohit and Warner and Guptill - all FTBs - are better ODI openers than anyone Pakistan has ever produced barring perhaps Saeed Anwar. However, the latter is a better Test opener than all.


Same old rubbish. No, the pitches were flat for both teams. Besides, what does it say about the so-called great Pakistani bowling attack, who got smashed on 'balanced' tracks? Oh yes, you will now avoid this banana skin by coming up with a list of excuses, i.e. Yasir bowled well in the first game, got unlucky, Amir had dropped catches, the bowlers lost confidence because the batsmen collapsed, but this happened, but that happened, if this wouldn't have happened, that would have happened etc. etc. etc. So stats and reality don't matter to you now, do they? Yet you have the audacity to call me a hypocrite. Talk about irony.


It was a great innings, but he has one good innings in Test cricket so far. KL Rahul has plenty, and he also has a T20I hundred. In fact, KL Rahul has a hundred in all three formats already. He is simply better than Babar and has had a better start to his career across formats. Babar has been better in ODIs, but KL Rahul has only played 6 ODIs yet, and he has shown that he is a complete batsman. Obviously, at the end of their careers, the only thing that matters would be performances and runs, not who is complete, but so far based on their performances in all three formats, it is clear that KL Rahul is superior to Babar.


Yes, like they crushed the WI and were 20 seconds away from losing the Abu Dhabi Test to England. Pakistan has not come close to the dominance the showed in the UAE vs Australia, clearly that was more down to how poor Australia were in that series. Pakistan has failed to beat South Africa twice, they have also lost a Test to NZ and although they beat England twice, most of the matches were quite competitive. It is delusional to think that Pakistan will walk over Australia again considering the fact that they have not exhibited such dominance in any other series in the UAE. What happened to Australia in the 2014 was an exception; the visiting teams in the UAE are generally more competitive than that.


30 in 30 happened in reality to Amla against Pakistan; 50 of 30 was a hypothetical scenario where accumulators tend to struggle. I really hope he has more guts under pressure than Amla, otherwise his lack of power-hitting will cost Pakistan. If he doesn't improve on that, he will be forever banking on the other batsman to produce a dynamic innings at the death to chase down big totals, instead of taking charge himself, which truly great players do. Amla has failed on that front which is why he is not a top class ODI batsman in spite of the stats, and Babar will fall in the same category if he doesn't improve his hitting. To claim that he doesn't need to improve on that is nonsense. The only reason you are so defensive on this issue is because you don't want to acknowledge an obvious weakness in Amla's game.


Of course Babar is like fresh air for our poor ODI team. However, this doesn't mean that he is a complete batsman already and doesn't have anything to improve on, which is what you seem to be implying.

There is no comprehension fail here. A FTB is a FTB is any format and despite roads masquerading as ODI pitches being common in India and Australia, pitches in England, South Africa offer enough help to the pace bowlers, as does the occasional pitch in other parts of the world. Check Rohit's record in England, South Africa and New Zealand, forget being better than any Pakistani opener ever, he's been worse than the likes of Ahmed Shehzad and Kamran Akmal. If Rahul isn't potentially better than Rohit, he's not a good ODI batsman. Of course, he's only played six matches so even a FTB with 50 matches under his belt will be the better bat.

Pakistan bowled superbly in the first innings of the first test, despite not getting to bowl under lights (mostly). Amir and Riaz both picked up four wicket hauls and Shah was economical. Thereafter the bowling fell apart but to use this to claim that a match played under D/N rules was just as easy for batting as a match played on one of the flattest pitches seen in Australia is just plain garbage.

There is simply no way a guy with six ODIs is better than one that averages 50+ after 20+ matches, several of which were played away from home (all in reality but let's not get into that). You can keep repeating the same lines over and over again but the reality is that Rahul and Babar are pretty even in tests, Babar is better in ODIs and Rahul is better in T20s. Overall, Babar is better because he has shown that he can play in a variety of conditions and also because he is already an established batsman in his team.

You are the same genius who predicted a series win for Australia in 2014 and now, you are repeating your nonsense yet again. Laughable really, but I suppose you want me to provide proof for how you were ranting about Pakistan losing 2:0 to the Australian side, captained by the 'great' Michael Clarke, super player of spin. The Windies played out of their skin and Pakistan took them lightly, that's all it was. If Pakistan faced off against the Australians, 9 times out of 10 they would win and this is supported by their record in Asia over the last several years. This Indian side simply isn't very good because their batsmen, barring Pujara and Vijay to some extent, are bunnies on rank turners and their spinners are average on flat tracks and garbage overseas. Pakistan is the better test team.

Except that it was one match where Ajmal, one of the greatest ODI bowlers of all time, and Junaid, who was on top of his game in that season, pulled off a great display of death bowling. It wasn't 30 off 30, it was 9 off 6 when Amla got out and the game was in the bag. To once and for all kill this trash argument of yours, here is the commentary for Amla's dismissal by a ESPNcricinfo commentator, who gets paid to provide his analysis on cricket unlike you, who people would pay to not write another sentence about this game:

43.6 93.6 kph, Amla looking to get to his milestone with a six over square leg, instead hits it directly up, with Mohammad Hafeez taking a difficult one to end what has been a top innings from the opener. Threatened to carry his bat through the innings, and his 98 has gone a long way in setting this up for South Africa 254/5

So no, it was not a match lost because of some imaginary inability of Amla, who has a SR of 130 in T20s, to hit a few more fours, it was lost by South Africa's lower order who were unable to get 8 runs off a final over from a rubbish, choking chucker like Junaid Khan, who isn't good enough to make a domestic side in your expert estimation.

Babar, similarly, can get boundaries when he has to and like I have said before, he does need to improve in all aspects of his batting if he is to fulfill his promise but he is a complete batsman in that he can do everything that a good batsman needs to be able to do. Chasing 50 off 30 is not his job and he will almost never be in such a situation. Partly because Pakistan's bowling will ensure that he isn't and partly because he bats at #3, not #6. Can you come up with three examples of a top order batsman needing to score 50 off 30 to win the game for his team?

He is a complete batsman but he can improve, just like every other athlete to have played any sport. Being complete does not mean that you are perfect, with no room to improve. It means that you have all the necessary bases covered and can do most things with at least a considerable amount of success.

 

[Bilal7]

60% of the forum picks Babar and rightfully so. Don't give me the "This is a Pakistani forum" line because there are almost as many Indian posters here as Pakistani ones, which was proven in the "Who is the greatest Asian cricketer" thread.

 

[Mamoon]

There is no comprehension fail here. A FTB is a FTB is any format and despite roads masquerading as ODI pitches being common in India and Australia, pitches in England, South Africa offer enough help to the pace bowlers, as does the occasional pitch in other parts of the world. Check Rohit's record in England, South Africa and New Zealand, forget being better than any Pakistani opener ever, he's been worse than the likes of Ahmed Shehzad and Kamran Akmal. If Rahul isn't potentially better than Rohit, he's not a good ODI batsman. Of course, he's only played six matches so even a FTB with 50 matches under his belt will be the better bat.

Yes there is a comprehension fail. I was talking about ODIs and not Tests. Lol at him not being better than Shehzad and Kamran. He is twice the ODI opener both of them put together. Calling those two better than Rohit is another addition to your wonderful parallel universe. The three big FTBs of this era - Rohit, Warner and Guptill - are better than any ODI opener Pakistan has ever produced barring Saeed Anwar. It is fact that cannot be contested. Of course in your parallel universe, not only Shehzad and Kamran, but Farhat, Taufeeq, Butt and Wajahatullah Wasti were better ODI openers than these guys as well.

Pakistan bowled superbly in the first innings of the first test, despite not getting to bowl under lights (mostly). Amir and Riaz both picked up four wicket hauls and Shah was economical. Thereafter the bowling fell apart but to use this to claim that a match played under D/N rules was just as easy for batting as a match played on one of the flattest pitches seen in Australia is just plain garbage.

Babar also failed in Melbourne and Sydney, which were flat wickets by your admission.

There is simply no way a guy with six ODIs is better than one that averages 50+ after 20+ matches, several of which were played away from home (all in reality but let's not get into that). You can keep repeating the same lines over and over again but the reality is that Rahul and Babar are pretty even in tests, Babar is better in ODIs and Rahul is better in T20s. Overall, Babar is better because he has shown that he can play in a variety of conditions and also because he is already an established batsman in his team.

Rahul is well ahead in Tests and T20Is. He has been behind Babar in ODIs because he has played 6 ODIs only. He can do everything Babar can + he is a better striker of the ball. It is obvious that he has more potential than Babar for ODIs. You can repeat yourself as many times as you like, but the facts are there for everyone to see. Had Rahul failed in Australia and Babar scored a hundred, you would have used that as conclusive evidence that Babar is a better Test batsman. However, it is not surprising that now that the shoe is on the other foot, you have a different stance. Your bias is well-known, and it does not surprise me anymore.

You are the same genius who predicted a series win for Australia in 2014 and now, you are repeating your nonsense yet again. Laughable really, but I suppose you want me to provide proof for how you were ranting about Pakistan losing 2:0 to the Australian side, captained by the 'great' Michael Clarke, super player of spin. The Windies played out of their skin and Pakistan took them lightly, that's all it was. If Pakistan faced off against the Australians, 9 times out of 10 they would win and this is supported by their record in Asia over the last several years. This Indian side simply isn't very good because their batsmen, barring Pujara and Vijay to some extent, are bunnies on rank turners and their spinners are average on flat tracks and garbage overseas. Pakistan is the better test team.

Yes I predicted that Australia will win that series, so what? You also had a genius prediction of Pakistan beating Australia in Australia 2-1 with Yasir running riot, but we got blanked and he was treated like a part-timer. I am not saying that Australia will beat Pakistan in the UAE, but my point is that you are taking them too lightly based on the 2014 series, because no other visiting team has been so helpless as they were in that series. It is safe to say that if they were to tour their again, they would compete better, just like every other team that have toured Pakistan in the UAE. Competing well doesn't equal winning. The 2014 UAE series was the most dominant series Pakistan have had in a long, long time. Apart form the first session in the first Test, they pretty much controlled proceedings throughout. It was a one-off affair.

Except that it was one match where Ajmal, one of the greatest ODI bowlers of all time, and Junaid, who was on top of his game in that season, pulled off a great display of death bowling. It wasn't 30 off 30, it was 9 off 6 when Amla got out and the game was in the bag. To once and for all kill this trash argument of yours, here is the commentary for Amla's dismissal by a ESPNcricinfo commentator, who gets paid to provide his analysis on cricket unlike you, who people would pay to not write another sentence about this game. So no, it was not a match lost because of some imaginary inability of Amla, who has a SR of 130 in T20s, to hit a few more fours, it was lost by South Africa's lower order who were unable to get 8 runs off a final over from a rubbish, choking chucker like Junaid Khan, who isn't good enough to make a domestic side in your expert estimation.

Your head is so up Amla's that you have turned into an ostrich who refuses to accept facts even they are right in front of you.

It was a 45 over match and Pakistan scored 262. Shehzhad had scored a century at a SR of 90. In response, Amla scored 98 runs at a SR of 75 which was a very poor innings in context. The match was set-up by de Villiers who scored a 74 ball 45 and took the game away from Pakistan, but as usual, he got out at the wrong time without finishing the job himself.

When he got out, SA needed 36 from 38 balls with 6 wickets in hand. A complete walk in the park, when you have the 'second greatest ODI opener of all time' already at the crease who is supposedly seeing it like a football with 117 deliveries under his belt. That match shouldn't even have gone into the final over, but Amla scratched around because he couldn't hit big shots (which is a strength of his according to you.

Yes Duminy and Miller batted poorly as well, but they were knew at the crease. It is much harder to get going from the word go than it is after being out there for 40 overs. It was still manageable till the penultimate over but that is where Amla wasted four deliveries of Ajmal like a tailender, and made the equation 9 out of 6 which is not exactly straight-forward. It was a pathetic innings and he didn't set South Africa up for anything; he cost them the game with his inability to hit the big shots. In other words, he cost them the game due to his strength (according to you). I appreciate your sad and blind devotion to Amla, but please don't hide behind false narratives and Cricinfo commentary (probably someone from your school of thought made that ridiculous statement) when you clearly know that he cost SA the match.

If it was any other batsman except for Amla or Moeen, and God forbid if it was Kohli, you would have been all over him like a rash. Yes credit goes to the two chuckers Ajmal and Junaid for bowling well at the death, but any half-decent batsman would have taken his team home from that position, i.e. run a ball required after batting for over 110 deliveries. In fact, even for Amla's standards, it was a cakewalk. However, he simply choked which is no surprise because his legacy as the biggest ODI choker of his era has been set in stone.

Babar, similarly, can get boundaries when he has to and like I have said before, he does need to improve in all aspects of his batting if he is to fulfill his promise but he is a complete batsman in that he can do everything that a good batsman needs to be able to do. Chasing 50 off 30 is not his job and he will almost never be in such a situation. Partly because Pakistan's bowling will ensure that he isn't and partly because he bats at #3, not #6. Can you come up with three examples of a top order batsman needing to score 50 off 30 to win the game for his team?

He is a complete batsman but he can improve, just like every other athlete to have played any sport. Being complete does not mean that you are perfect, with no room to improve. It means that you have all the necessary bases covered and can do most things with at least a considerable amount of success.

For one final time, Babar HAS to improve his ball striking. Not just me, but most people on this forum and outside this forum have testified to it. It was a concern in the PSL as well where he got starts but as soon as the field spread and he had to play big shots, he almost always found a fielder in the deep. He has the potential to be a complete batsman and he won't be unless he improve his ball striking. Amla is not a complete Limited Overs batsman either, and his poor ball striking is the main reason why he has failed to be an ATG in Limited Overs.

 

[Mamoon]

60% of the forum picks Babar and rightfully so. Don't give me the "This is a Pakistani forum" line because there are almost as many Indian posters here as Pakistani ones, which was proven in the "Who is the greatest Asian cricketer" thread.

Read who voted for him as well, majority of the biased Pakistani fans. Nonetheless, I don't care if he gets 99% of the votes, I can see why Rahul is better than Babar and so can those who don't view with their green-tinted glasses.

 

[Syed1]

No point writing novels arguing who is better or who is not. It will all be clear in a year or two.

That being said Babar has definitely looked the better ODI batsman and has played a stellar knock in tests with his back against the wall and on a green top, something Rahul hasn't done as yet. KL Rahul has played well in tests but all of his centuries have come on flat pattas.

 

[Sachin136]

60% of the forum picks Babar and rightfully so. Don't give me the "This is a Pakistani forum" line because there are almost as many Indian posters here as Pakistani ones, which was proven in the "Who is the greatest Asian cricketer" thread.

Around 20% of the voters are Indian.

 

[Ph_11]

What difference does it make. It is a team sport.