British Pakistanis, less successful compared to North American Pakistanis?

[Pak-Legend]

Are British Pakistanis less successful (in terms of assimilating into Western society and adapting positively to their environment) compared to American and Canadian Pakistanis?

Obviously, forming generalizations based upon upon YouTube videos and the news, doesn't give us an accurate representation of the broader and general Pakistani population in Great Britain. However, for those who are British - what is your response to the media's portrayal of British Pakistanis? Is this an accurate portrayal or do these hooligans only make up a small percentage of the entire Pakistani population?

Could there also be the possibility of similarities existing between the Black/Hispanic population in North America and the Pakistani population in Great Britain? (In terms of issues such as drugs, gangs, grooming, poverty) What about in comparison to the Bengali and Indian communities in Great Britain?

Last but not least, how do these hooligans even make it to the news and into these documentaries - while hardworking, law abiding Pakistani citizens go unnoticed? You rarely hear of any of these problems arising amongst the North American Pakistani community.

Video I'm mainly referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es7TeAJYDB4

A video showing the 'positive' side?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrR_NzV11JQ

 

[archetype]

Pakistanis who move to North America are on the whole a lot more educated than those who moved to UK

 

[akheR]

British Pakistanis = working class immigration (from rural areas of Punjab or Mirpur) = conservative world-view, less chances of educational and economic success because of the culture at home

American Pakistanis = middle/upper class immigration (from urban centre like Karachi, Lahore or Islamabad) = liberal world-view, more chances of educational and economic success because of the culture at home

So that's the "quality" (not in a derogatory way) of the immigration which shaped it all. If you have doctors, engineers, ... emigrating to one place and labourers to the other, there will be a difference obviously in terms of achievements, cultural behaviour or perception of the host society.

But the working class immigration is affecting the American Pakistani too I read, like it already does to the Canadian Pakistani community.

 

[mani1]

British Pakistanis = working class immigration (from rural areas of Punjab or Mirpur) = conservative world-view, less chances of educational and economic success because of the culture at home

American Pakistanis = middle/upper class immigration (from urban centre like Karachi, Lahore or Islamabad) = liberal world-view, more chances of educational and economic success because of the culture at home

So that's the "quality" (not in a derogatory way) of the immigration which shaped it all. If you have doctors, engineers, ... emigrating to one place and labourers to the other, there will be a difference obviously in terms of achievements, cultural behaviour or perception of the host society.

But the working class immigration is affecting the American Pakistani too I read, like it already does to the Canadian Pakistani community.

Apparently that's the case in London too yet only Bengali's are worse of then Pakistanis there.

But the working class immigration is affecting the American Pakistani too I read, like it already does to the Canadian Pakistani community.

According to the stats that have been posted here American Pakistanis poverty rates are 50% higher than the national average which a third is Black and Hispanics.
There is no generous benefit system like there is the UK or Canada either.

Also I would guess the Indians in America are doing a lot better than the Indians in the UK why is that?

 

[Pak-Legend]

British Pakistanis = working class immigration (from rural areas of Punjab or Mirpur) = conservative world-view, less chances of educational and economic success because of the culture at home

American Pakistanis = middle/upper class immigration (from urban centre like Karachi, Lahore or Islamabad) = liberal world-view, more chances of educational and economic success because of the culture at home

So that's the "quality" (not in a derogatory way) of the immigration which shaped it all. If you have doctors, engineers, ... emigrating to one place and labourers to the other, there will be a difference obviously in terms of achievements, cultural behaviour or perception of the host society.

You have a point with regards to the "quality" (I am not saying this in a derogatory or offensive manner) of immigrants, but you have to remember, that even immigrants from the same area can differ in "quality".

But the working class immigration is affecting the American Pakistani too I read, like it already does to the Canadian Pakistani community

It can be argued in favour of assimilation and adjusting positively to the environment as well. The working class Pakistani diaspora can be given opportunities to move up the middle/upper class and thus become "empowered", due to the education/financial/social support systems set in place.

 

[endymion248]

Pakistanis in US are a small and solidar community that constitutes 0.33% (or less) of US population while Brit Pakistanis are 3% or more of British population, among the major ethnic minorities of UK.

This may be correlated to the idea British immigrants are less educated (come in through family and for family in mass) but it may not.
Another incentive may be that you will day from hunger if you don't work in the US but, if you do, you're can be very rich.

TBH, I believe education has nothing to do with it. Most extremly successful us immigrants have no education.

 

[Markhor]

A lot of Pakistanis moved to areas in Britain that were industrial cities, that once flourished with mills and factories which were a source of cheap migrant labour for the declining British manufacturing industry, as employers sought to cut costs as inflation gradually increased from the 1960s onwards. Since the 1980s with the de-industrialisation that took place under Thatcher, many of these Pakistani communities have become part of the long-term unemployed, where this cycle of deprivation continues to be passed down from generation to generation. Infact it was a practice to run separate shifts of Asian workers in some places as they had no union representation in the beginning. Regarding the issue of assimilation, many Pakistanis came to Britain without the precondition of losing their own cultural identity, they came to provide the cheap labour for industry. The cultural identity of America is different, they shout their nationalism from the rooftops and therefore there is no choice but to assimilate.

For second and third generation Pakistanis it is not so easy. For example many British Pakistanis are looked down upon by their elders and other self-proclaimed 'real' Pakistanis because they can't speak Urdu/Punjabi/Pushto/Mohajari very well, but why is that important ? Doesn't a Muslim identity directs that people understand Arabic - all else tends to be regional snobbery. There is some poor parenting and lack of common sense in some cases too, some parents just don't drive or encourage their children to achieve. Some Pakistani areas have high rates of genetic disorders due to marriages between relatives and social mobility is low. There seems to be an inherent mistrust between some Pakistani communities and this lazy generalisation of those from AJK. A more tightly-knit Pakistani community that takes responsibility for each other and tries to collectively put their minds together, in entrepreneurship and civil society like the Hindu, Sikh and Jewish community, can become a powerful voice.

 

[saadibaba]

American Pakistanis are more intergrated in the society and don't live in their isolated mini-Lahore, Mini-Karachi, Mini-Mirpur etc. ghettoized areas. American Pakistani's are likely better educated, richer and more open minded IMO. The seond generation American Pakistani's are likely to recognize themselves as more American than Pakistani. They are likely to be into basketball, american football etc. than cricket.

 

[James]

I'm not sure about fancy statistics and such, but British Pakistanis are well sound, and that's the most important thing for me.

 

[GentleMan]

i also think that american pakistanis are the best because i never hear any bad news about them..but british pakistanis on the whole who are like any other community, but lots of negative report coming from that area. so i vote for american pakistanis.

 

[saadibaba]

I'm not sure about fancy statistics and such, but British Pakistanis are well sound, and that's the most important thing for me.

I think you are being generous....

Most religious minded and conspiracy driven posters on this site are British Pakistani's followed by Canadian Pakistani's.

 

[akheR]

I'm not sure about fancy statistics and such, but British Pakistanis are well sound, and that's the most important thing for me.

PC much ? :rondu

 

[James]

I think you are being generous....

Most religious minded and conspiracy driven posters on this site are British Pakistani's followed by Canadian Pakistani's.

PC much ? :rondu

Yes we have some mongs here - but interesting stuff above, because it judges Brit-Paks from PP over real life.

In real life the Brit-Paks are good blokes. You never know who you're talking to over the Net

 

[endymion248]

I think you are being generous....

Most religious minded and conspiracy driven posters on this site are British Pakistani's followed by Canadian Pakistani's.

They didn't receive the exquisite education provided in Karachi and Lahore, unfortunately.

 

[Oxy'sWingMan]

I think you are being generous....

Most religious minded and conspiracy driven posters on this site are British Pakistani's followed by Canadian Pakistani's.

I agree with this, however, most Canadian Pakistanis I have met are top lads (much like their American counterparts).

 

[Oxy'sWingMan]

they didn't receive the exquisite education provided in karachi and lahore, unfortunately.

 

[mani1]

They didn't receive the exquisite education provided in Karachi and Lahore, unfortunately.

Many in London have unfortunately it hasn't helped them.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Most British Pakistanis come from a mirpuri village background and theres been a recent wave of pathan asylumn seekers. They don't have the backgrounds of the American immigrants.

However I think the way that the Pakistani community has developed from being poor villager immigrants to reasonably successful socially and political active group in such a short space of time is a real credit to them.

American and Canadian Pakistanis seem very uncle tomish as if they expect to be sent packing any time. Most British Pakistanis are comfortable enough in their Britishness ( Britain is incredibly tolerant) and are happy to express themselves.

As far as the way we dress and speak, its normal in British cities.

 

[endymion248]

Many in London have unfortunately it hasn't helped them.

Would we have been lied to?

 

[Zarrar]

Individually/per capita basis, perhaps....collectively as a community...heck no...British Pakistanis are superior in that department...

 

[mani1]

Would we have been lied to?

No the American Pakistani poverty percentage was almost 50% higher than the national average which has been dragged down due to around a third of the US's population being generally lower income Black and Hispanics.

In London where most are from the big City's in Pakistan the poverty figures are similar.

 

[Oxy'sWingMan]

On a slightly unrelated note, here's an interesting article/study showing the rise of Asian Americans in the United States - http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/

Asian Americans are the highest-income, best-educated and fastest-growing racial group in the United States. They are more satisfied than the general public with their lives, finances and the direction of the country, and they place more value than other Americans do on marriage, parenthood, hard work and career success, according to a comprehensive new nationwide survey by the Pew Research Center.

 

[mani1]

On a slightly unrelated note, here's an interesting article/study showing the rise of Asian Americans in the United States - http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/

As i thought the American Indians are doing a lot better than the UK Indians.
Any idea why that is?

 

[Avenger]

I have a few relatives who have left UK for the US and found much more success and happiness in the US compared to the UK and a vast majority of them constantly say that the racial hurdles and challenges are far greater in the UK compared to the US.

 

[endymion248]

I think 87% is the key number here.

 

[GentleMan]

one pure white american guy was telling me that i am the kind of immigrant america needs because we add so much value to this country..i told him that i will go back to india, then he said but why, and added that if i want green card he can help me, because his family is politically connected. but i have my options open. it the offer was from UK, i wont even consider it..such is the image i have about UK.

 

[Oxy'sWingMan]

As i thought the American Indians are doing a lot better than the UK Indians.
Any idea why that is?

Are they? To be honest, I have not had much exposure to British Indians or any data on that matter, but I recall reading a report/article sometime back mentioning that British Indians are one of the more successful ethnic groups in the UK.

 

[mani1]

Are they? To be honest, I have not had much exposure to British Indians or any data on that matter, but I recall reading a report/article sometime back mentioning that British Indians are one of the more successful ethnic groups in the UK.

Difference is in the UK there are not many immigrant groups and the Indians are not more successful than the indigenous population in the US they are a lot more successful than the European settlers and looking at your figures they are more successful than the Chinese and Japanese too.

 

[Down2Earth]

British Pakistanis are mainly from mirpur and the surrounding areas. So it's no surprise if they're below the poverty line. They're more concerned with getting their teenage daughters married off to some cousin back home. Education isn't given much importance.

 

[mani1]

British Pakistanis are mainly from mirpur and the surrounding areas. So it's no surprise if they're below the poverty line. They're more concerned with getting their teenage daughters married off to some cousin back home. Education isn't given much importance.

Yet the Mirpuri girls are doing better in Education and employment then the boys these days.

Whats the reason for the sons and daughters of Doctors, Lawyers engineers etc of Lahore Karachi Faisalabad doing so badly in London?

 

[pakistanalltheway]

British Pakistanis are mainly from mirpur and the surrounding areas. So it's no surprise if they're below the poverty line. They're more concerned with getting their teenage daughters married off to some cousin back home. Education isn't given much importance.

As a mirpuri I find this offence . Not only is it a sweeping generalisation bit it's also misinformed .

 

[Oxy'sWingMan]

Difference is in the UK there are not many immigrant groups and the Indians are not more successful than the indigenous population in the US they are a lot more successful than the European settlers and looking at your figures they are more successful than the Chinese and Japanese too.

Yeah, that's an interesting point. However, perhaps that boils down to more opportunities in the US compared to the UK for minorities. If you have a strong work ethic, are ambitious, and willing to work your ass off, the opportunities are unlimited in the US. Tyt puts a spin on it -

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SXHoSfUjfEE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here's also an article on how Indians have dominated the engineering/technology start-up area. But it also is indicative of the helpful environment and amount of opportunities at their disposal in a market like the US - http://venturebeat.com/2012/10/15/how-indians-defied-gravity-and-achieved-success-in-silicon-valley/

 

[akheR]

Just found an article from the NYTimes comparing the community in both countries (from 2006)

Pakistanis Find U.S. an Easier Fit Than Britain

CHICAGO, Aug. 18 — The stretch of Devon Avenue in North Chicago also named for Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, seems as if it has been transplanted directly from that country. The shops are packed with traditional wedding finery, and the spice mix in the restaurants’ kebabs is just right.

Similar enclaves in Britain have been under scrutiny since they have proved to be a breeding ground for cells of terrorists, possibly including the 24 men arrested recently as suspects in a plot to blow up airliners flying out of London.

Yet Devon Avenue is in many ways different. Although heavily Pakistani, the street is far more exposed to other cultures than are similar communities in Britain.

Indian Hindus have a significant presence along the roughly one-and-a-half-mile strip of boutiques, whose other half is named for Gandhi. What was a heavily Jewish neighborhood some 20 years ago also includes recent immigrants from Colombia, Mexico and Ukraine, among others.

“There is integration even when you have an enclave,” said Nizam Arain, 32, a lawyer of Pakistani descent who was born and raised in Chicago. “You don’t have the same siege mentality.”

Even so, members of the Pakistani immigrant community here find themselves joining the speculation as to whether sinister plots could be hatched in places like Devon (pronounced deh-VAHN) Avenue.

The most common response is no, at least not now, because of differences that have made Pakistanis in the United States far better off economically and more assimilated culturally than their counterparts in Britain. But some Pakistani-Americans do not rule out the possibility, given how little is understood about the exact tipping point that pushes angry young Muslim men to accept an ideology that endorses suicide and mass murder.

The idea of a relatively smaller, more prosperous, more striving immigrant community inoculating against terror cells goes only so far, they say.

“It makes it sound like it couldn’t happen here because we are the good immigrants: hard-working, close-knit, educated,” said Junaid Rana, an assistant professor of Asian-American studies at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and an American-born son of Pakistani immigrants. “But we are talking about a cult mind-set, how a cult does its brainwashing.”

Yet one major difference between the United States and Britain, some say, is the United States’ historical ideal of being a melting-pot meritocracy.

“You can keep the flavor of your ethnicity, but you are expected to become an American,” said Omer Mozaffar, 34, a Pakistani-American raised here who is working toward a doctorate in Islamic studies at the University of Chicago.

Britain remains far more rigid. In the United States, for example, Pakistani physicians are more likely to lead departments at hospitals or universities than they are in Britain, said Dr. Tariq H. Butt, a 52-year-old family physician who arrived in the United States 25 years ago for his residency.

Nationwide, Pakistanis appear to be prospering. The census calculated that mean household income in the United States in 2002 was $57,852 annually, while that for Asian households, which includes Pakistanis, was $70,047. By contrast, about one-fifth of young British-born Muslims are jobless, and many subsist on welfare.

Hard numbers on how many people of Pakistani descent live in the United States do not exist, but a forthcoming book from Harvard University Press on charitable donations among Pakistani-Americans, “Portrait of a Giving Community,” puts the number around 500,000, with some 35 percent or more of them in the New York metropolitan area. Chicago has fewer than 100,000, while other significant clusters exist in California, Texas and Washington, D.C.

Pakistani immigration to the United States surged after laws in the 1960’s made it easier for Asians to enter the country. Most were drawn by jobs in academia, medicine and engineering. It was only in the late 1980’s and 90’s that Pakistanis arrived to work blue-collar jobs as taxi drivers or shopkeepers, said Adil Najam, the author of the book on donations and an international relations professor at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.

In Britain, by comparison, the first Pakistanis arrived after World War II to work in factories. Many were fleeing sectarian strife in Kashmir — a lingering source of resentment — and entire communities picked up and resettled together. This created Pakistani ghettos in cities like Bradford and Birmingham, whereas in the United States immigrants tended to be scattered and newcomers forced to assimilate. The trends intensified with time.

A decade ago, for example, a Pakistani in Chicago who wanted to buy halal meat, from animals butchered in a religiously sanctioned manner, could find it only on Devon Avenue. Now halal butchers dot the city and its suburbs.

Thousands of immigrants and their American-born offspring still flock to Devon Avenue because of its restaurants and traditional goods, including wedding saris for women and long, elaborate shirts and gilded slippers with curled toes for men. The avenue’s half-dozen rudimentary mosques have a reputation for being more conservative than those elsewhere in Chicago, with the imams emphasizing an adherence to Muslim tradition.

“They go to an area where they have a feeling of nostalgia, and even psychologically it is important for immigrant communities to feel that their home country is represented,” said Dr. Butt, an early member of the Association of Physicians of Pakistani Descent of North America, one of the oldest immigrant organizations here.

But immigrants are not mired in the Devon Avenue neighborhood; many move out once they can afford better. Unlike the situation in Britain, there is no collective history here of frustrated efforts to assimilate into a society where a shortened form of Pakistani is a stinging slur, and there are no centuries-old grievances nursed from British colonial rule over what became Pakistan.

Where such comparisons fail, however, is in providing a model to predict why some young Muslims turn to violence, although no religion is immune. In the United States there have been a few cases of young Pakistani men being arrested or tried in terror plots, in Atlanta and in Lodi, Calif., for example.

Ifti Nasim, a former luxury car salesman turned poet and gay rights advocate, greets a visitor with a slim volume of his works. The cover photograph shows him wearing a bright orange dress, ropes of pearls and a long blond wig. He has been in the United States since 1971.

Some shoppers crowding the sidewalks on Devon Avenue greet Mr. Nasim warmly, telling him they listen to his radio show or read his columns in a local Urdu-language newspaper. In Pakistan, Mr. Nasim says, his flamboyance would not be tolerated, but here he calls his acceptance “the litmus test of the society.”

Like many, however, he has moments of doubt, saying, “Pakistani society in Chicago has made a smooth transition so far, but you never know.”

A more important factor in determining who becomes a militant is most likely the feeling of being stigmatized as less than equal, community activists say, noting that such discrimination remains far more common in Britain. It is probably compounded by the fact that violence against Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Lebanon feels so much closer there, they say.

Overt bigotry is rarer here, but it exists. For instance, Mohamed Hanis, a taxi driver who is a Pakistani immigrant, said that on the Friday night after the terror alert in London, a young white man climbed into his cab. Noticing the name Mohamed, the man threatened to report that Mr. Hanis had admitted to supporting terrorist attacks unless he could get a free ride. Instead, Mr. Hanis hailed a police officer who forced the passenger to pay.

Mr. Mozaffar, the University of Chicago student, said he had grown up with revered Muslim role models like Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul-Jabar, but now there were none. He teaches religion classes for young Muslims, and the question inevitably arises whether the creed justifies using violence for political or religious aims. He emphasizes that Islam forbids killing innocent civilians, and community members here have said they will not tolerate a mosque prayer leader advocating violence.

Initial reports about the British suspects quoted neighbors as saying that some of the men had become more religious, adopting Islamic dress and praying five times a day. That kind of transformation happens in Chicago, too, but the idea that any such change should automatically arouse suspicion rather than be considered teenage rebellion or a religious conversion makes community activists bridle.

For the past eight years, Abdul Qadeer Sheikh, 46, has managed Islamic Books N Things on Devon Avenue, which sells items like Korans, prayer rugs and Arabic alphabet books. He says that since Sept. 11, he has seen signs of the bias that has existed in Britain for decades developing here. He describes a distinctive fear of being seen as Muslim, even along Devon Avenue. Before, a good 70 percent of the women who came into his shop were veiled, he said. Now the reverse is true, and far fewer men wear traditional clothes.

The attitude of the American government in adopting terms like “Islamic fascists” and deporting large numbers of immigrants, he said, makes Muslims feel marked, as if they do not belong here. “The society in the United States is much fairer to foreigners than anywhere else,” he said, “but that mood is changing.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/21/us/21devon.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

^so interesting, I thought that the "educated" immigration was indeed the major difference with Britain, but the "working class" immigration (major part in Britain) is not a new phenomenon (contrarily to what I thought) as it goes back to the 80s.
It may also be noted that, as per the article, those in Britain might face more discrimination.

 

[cricketworm]

I will clearly have bias for North American Pakistanis, they have been my room mates, played cricket with them, they have been classmates, and found many of them very cute too. Karachi for the win!

 

[Pak-Legend]

Just found an article from the NYTimes comparing the community in both countries (from 2006)

Pakistanis Find U.S. an Easier Fit Than Britain



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/21/us/21devon.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

^so interesting, I thought that the "educated" immigration was indeed the major difference with Britain, but the "working class" immigration (major part in Britain) is not a new phenomenon (contrarily to what I thought) as it goes back to the 80s.
It may also be noted that, as per the article, those in Britain might face more discrimination.

They key point to notice here is this:

“The society in the United States is much fairer to foreigners than anywhere else,” he said, “but that mood is changing.”

Many Pakistani families moved from America to Canada to avoid discrimination after the events of 9/11.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think you are being generous....

Most religious minded and conspiracy driven posters on this site are British Pakistani's followed by Canadian Pakistani's.

Most British Pakistanis don't even bother with sites like this, they are too busy getting on with their lives, which is why it always makes me laugh when people make assumptions based on reading a web site.

James knows better, having lived among us, so he's in a position to make an educated call as opposed to groping in the dark like others without direct contact.

 

[GentleMan]

With all due respect James is not a valid authority..because even though he is not Pakistani, he is British..therefore he will always place British Pakistanis above American Pakistanis..

 

[GentleMan]

I am more credible authority because I am Indian..and i dislike all Pakistanis equally..so when I say that American Pakistanis are better, it means something...my experience with them has been very positive.

 

[saadibaba]

Most British Pakistanis don't even bother with sites like this, they are too busy getting on with their lives, which is why it always makes me laugh when people make assumptions based on reading a web site.

James knows better, having lived among us, so he's in a position to make an educated call as opposed to groping in the dark like others without direct contact.

I would defer you to Mehdi Hasan's excellent article in another thread about Lord Ahmed.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=5668712&postcount=13

PP is mainly made up of British Pakistani's, if any group is represented here in adequate number for anyone to form an opinion, its this group.

 

[kingusama92]

All communities have their bad eggs.

I think with Canada now, it's more of a selective process when it comes to who is allowed into the country. Thus, most Pakistanis coming in now are well educated.

I think Britain's population of Pakistanis is unfairly called "uncivilized". Harsh generalization as I know a few families from Britain and they are class people. It's just the bad eggs tend to do dumb things and get on the news more often and make the most impact.

 

[IgnitedMind]

I haven't met British pakistanis except here.....but american pakistanis in general are not remotely as conservative in idealogy as people I see here !!!

However, I do not think it is right to compare Indian demographic with pakistani/chinese.....only qualified indian's ..or people who are doing masters get a visa to america these days...so naturally they are educated..decent....high income group...

But i believe pak is a friendly country....america hand picks pakistanis every year and gives them visas and green cards.....guess that is why I see quite a few of pak taxi drivers...and shop keepers....in usa !!!

 

[cricketworm]

US Pakistani Homies > UK Pakistani Homies.

I don't understand half of things UK homies even say.

 

[Pak-Legend]

I am more credible authority because I am Indian..and i dislike all Pakistanis equally..so when I say that American Pakistanis are better, it means something...my experience with them has been very positive.

You've never had any direct experiences with British Pakistanis so how can you come to that conclusion? Internet forums don't count.

 

[FusedBulb]

A lot of Pakistanis moved to areas in Britain that were industrial cities, that once flourished with mills and factories which were a source of cheap migrant labour for the declining British manufacturing industry, as employers sought to cut costs as inflation gradually increased from the 1960s onwards. Since the 1980s with the de-industrialisation that took place under Thatcher, many of these Pakistani communities have become part of the long-term unemployed, where this cycle of deprivation continues to be passed down from generation to generation. Infact it was a practice to run separate shifts of Asian workers in some places as they had no union representation in the beginning. Regarding the issue of assimilation, many Pakistanis came to Britain without the precondition of losing their own cultural identity, they came to provide the cheap labour for industry. The cultural identity of America is different, they shout their nationalism from the rooftops and therefore there is no choice but to assimilate.

For second and third generation Pakistanis it is not so easy. For example many British Pakistanis are looked down upon by their elders and other self-proclaimed 'real' Pakistanis because they can't speak Urdu/Punjabi/Pushto/Mohajari very well, but why is that important ? Doesn't a Muslim identity directs that people understand Arabic - all else tends to be regional snobbery. There is some poor parenting and lack of common sense in some cases too, some parents just don't drive or encourage their children to achieve. Some Pakistani areas have high rates of genetic disorders due to marriages between relatives and social mobility is low. There seems to be an inherent mistrust between some Pakistani communities and this lazy generalisation of those from AJK. A more tightly-knit Pakistani community that takes responsibility for each other and tries to collectively put their minds together, in entrepreneurship and civil society like the Hindu, Sikh and Jewish community, can become a powerful voice.

And why is not the same with British Indians?

 

[Down2Earth]

As a mirpuri I find this offence . Not only is it a sweeping generalisation bit it's also misinformed .

It wasn't my intention to offend anyone. I only said what I've experienced first hand. Getting a fresh husband or wife means only one will be working full time so inevitably will be poorer. And the cycle continues when they get their child married from back home too. The parents want a nice housewife from the family to take care of them at the expense of a better future for the children.

 

[the Great Khan]

American Pakistanis are more intergrated in the society and don't live in their isolated mini-Lahore, Mini-Karachi, Mini-Mirpur etc. ghettoized areas. American Pakistani's are likely better educated, richer and more open minded IMO. The seond generation American Pakistani's are likely to recognize themselves as more American than Pakistani. They are likely to be into basketball, american football etc. than cricket.

Yet are politically less sucessful..how many congressmen do they have?

Also the majority of immigs to the US were already professiobals..in the uk many were poor labourers..
My dad came here in tge early sixties, worked his butt off and made a life for us..yu may not value such things but in britain we do..by the way i live in mini gujarat..(the indian one) and half way across the city there is a massive white ghetto..i suggest yu have as usual no idea what yur talking about..as for open minded..lol...more like indifferent powerlesss and selfish..

 

[GentleMan]

You've never had any direct experiences with British Pakistanis so how can you come to that conclusion? Internet forums don't count.

oh, i didnt have direct contact with american pakistanis either..i meant internet only. look at american ppers..saadibaba, W63L35, LethalSami, Justarslan, Looney..all cook, easy going people.

and look at british pakistanis..namak halaal, kkwc, great khan, captain rishwat.. all having some bitterness. and dear sir, internet forums do count, because people are most honest here. in fact real life experience doesnt count, because people are politically correct.

 

[Oxy'sWingMan]

Let's not forget the Canadian PPers (KingUsama, that dude with the kanye west avatar, Inziquicksingle).

All class acts.

 

[GentleMan]

this has been my experience.. american pakistanis > pakistani pakistanis > british pakistanis in cool factor.

 

[akheR]

Here are some of the highlights of Pakistani-American data from US Census 2010 as gleaned from a report titled "A Community of Contrasts Asian Americans in the United States: 2011" published by Asian-American Center For Advancing Justice:

1. There are 409,163 Pakistani-Americans in 2010, the 7th largest Asian-American community in America.

2. Pakistani-American population doubled from 2000 (204,309) to 2010 (409,163), the second largest percentage increase after Bangladeshis' 157% increase in the same period.

3. The median household income of Pakistani-American families is nearly $63,000 versus $51,369 average for all Americans.

4. 55% of Pakistanis have a bachelor's degree or higher.

5. 55% of Pakistanis own their own homes.

6. 6% of Pakistani-American population is mixed race.

7. 65% of Pakistanis in America are foreign-born. 57% of foreign-born Pakistani-American population is made up of naturalized citizens.

8. There are 120,000 Pakistani legal permanent residents of which 42% are eligible to naturalize.

9. There were 69,202 immigrant visas issued to Pakistanis from 2001 to 2010, the 5th highest among Asian nations.

10. 28% of Pakistanis have limited English proficiency. :nj

11. 15% of Pakistanis are classified as poor; only 1% of them are on public assistance.

12. 8% of Pakistanis are unemployed, a figure lower than the general population of Americans.

13. Median age of Pakistanis in America is only 29 years, lower than most of the Asian groups and the national median age of 36.8 years.

http://www.riazhaq.com/2012/06/pakistani-american-population-growth.html

So they're doing decent considering that in the 80s/90s and nowadays most of the immigration has been monopolized by taxi-drivers and the likes.

Full report:

http://www.advancingjustice.org/pdf/Community_of_Contrast.pdf

 

[endymion248]

I am more credible authority because I am Indian..and i dislike all Pakistanis equally..so when I say that American Pakistanis are better, it means something...my experience with them has been very positive.

You would be authority. If you ever had set a freakin foot in Britain

At least for James, I know that he won't be judging people he never met. And he didn't, since he only commented about the attributes of British Pakistanis, as opposed to you who compared both while I'm pretty sure you have no authority to do so.

Besides, I think that this is one of the main problem with most of the opinions on this thread. They are based on limited perception coming from either small samples, either media and internet air (like yours), pejorative towards Brit Pakistanis and meliorative towards US ones. I don't think I need to signal how both approaches are flawed, esp when you look at the difference in mentality and expectations from both countries people and media.

Saying this, I'm nor a British-born, nor an American-born, and I don't have interests riding on whether Brits are better than Americans. Just as a general perception of mine from actually experiencing both countries, I would say both have as much success on average, Brits one having more extremes (ie more successful than any American ever, and some much worse than the average).

Then again, if you are going to judge success on yearly income or college education, I don't think much more can be said.

 

[akheR]

this has been my experience.. american pakistanis > pakistani pakistanis > british pakistanis in cool factor.

What about Belgian PPers ? :rondu
Best known Belgian Pakistani of the 90s

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8-4Le7UxpjA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Pak-Legend]

oh, i didnt have direct contact with american pakistanis either..i meant internet only. look at american ppers..saadibaba, W63L35, LethalSami, Justarslan, Looney..all cook, easy going people.

and look at british pakistanis..namak halaal, kkwc, great khan, captain rishwat.. all having some bitterness. and dear sir, internet forums do count, because people are most honest here. in fact real life experience doesnt count, because people are politically correct.

You do have a point there. Some people are far less likely to hold an opinion/viewpoint when they have to say it to someone's face. The anonymity of the internet brings out the true colours in people. (both good and bad)

However, again we cannot generalize based on an experience on one forum - Maybe the bitterness is an effective technique to relieve stress of daily life in Britain?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I would defer you to Mehdi Hasan's excellent article in another thread about Lord Ahmed.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=5668712&postcount=13

PP is mainly made up of British Pakistani's, if any group is represented here in adequate number for anyone to form an opinion, its this group.

Yes the British PP's aren't afraid of open debate so rather than criticise, perhaps you should appreciate that we have provided a multinational forum where everyone is welcome, even those who are openly hostile to their hosts!

 

[saadibaba]

Yet are politically less sucessful..how many congressmen do they have?

Also the majority of immigs to the US were already professiobals..in the uk many were poor labourers..
My dad came here in tge early sixties, worked his butt off and made a life for us..yu may not value such things but in britain we do..by the way i live in mini gujarat..(the indian one) and half way across the city there is a massive white ghetto..i suggest yu have as usual no idea what yur talking about..as for open minded..lol...more like indifferent powerlesss and selfish..

Taking political involvement as the measure of success for a group less than 1% of the total population and still relatively new to America is laughable to say the least.

US has its share of blue collar Pakistani workers too, probably more than white collar Pakistanis. Everyone's dad here worked their butt off to make a living so nothing unique to you or your family. And all this political power you have in Britain, what good has it done to the Pakistani community. They are still poor, isolated and discriminated against.

 

[cricketworm]

oh, i didnt have direct contact with american pakistanis either..i meant internet only. look at american ppers..saadibaba, W63L35, LethalSami, Justarslan, Looney..all cook, easy going people.

and look at british pakistanis..namak halaal, kkwc, great khan, captain rishwat.. all having some bitterness. and dear sir, internet forums do count, because people are most honest here. in fact real life experience doesnt count, because people are politically correct.

Let's not forget the Canadian PPers (KingUsama, that dude with the kanye west avatar, Inziquicksingle).

All class acts.

A bitter pill UK Pakistani ppers must swallow. Will be easy for them I bet. LOL Website's owner is British. Take cover.

 

[GentleMan]

You would be authority. If you ever had set a freakin foot in Britain

At least for James, I know that he won't be judging people he never met. And he didn't, since he only commented about the attributes of British Pakistanis, as opposed to you who compared both while I'm pretty sure you have no authority to do so.

Besides, I think that this is one of the main problem with most of the opinions on this thread. They are based on limited perception coming from either small samples, either media and internet air (like yours), pejorative towards Brit Pakistanis and meliorative towards US ones. I don't think I need to signal how both approaches are flawed, esp when you look at the difference in mentality and expectations from both countries people and media.

Saying this, I'm nor a British-born, nor an American-born, and I don't have interests riding on whether Brits are better than Americans. Just as a general perception of mine from actually experiencing both countries, I would say both have as much success on average, Brits one having more extremes (ie more successful than any American ever, and some much worse than the average).

Then again, if you are going to judge success on yearly income or college education, I don't think much more can be said.

the reason you are valuing james opinion because he is white skin..and it is desi mentality to value what a white person says over and above what a brown has to say...because whites are supposed to be neutral and unbiased.

and no offence to james, it is normal to be biased and support everything british and put down everything american.

here the word of an indian values more..because an indian doesnt like pakistanis, no matter where they are from..and indians have no preference over UK or USA..so when indians say that american pakistanis are coolest, this must be taken seriously. and i am not the only one, cricketworm also said that.

 

[endymion248]

What about Belgian PPers ? :rondu
Best known Belgian Pakistani of the 90s

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8-4Le7UxpjA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You guys are fine. As long as you keep abominations like Imran Khan in your tiny country, or in Holland, or whatever

 

[IgnitedMind]

Yet are politically less sucessful..how many congressmen do they have?

Also the majority of immigs to the US were already professiobals..in the uk many were poor labourers..
My dad came here in tge early sixties, worked his butt off and made a life for us..yu may not value such things but in britain we do..by the way i live in mini gujarat..(the indian one) and half way across the city there is a massive white ghetto..i suggest yu have as usual no idea what yur talking about..as for open minded..lol...more like indifferent powerlesss and selfish..

It is funny you say that now ...coz numerous times I have seen you say and dismiss Many muslims incredible success stories in India.....politicians..bussinessman....actors..cricketers....basically dismissing every field !!!...and all of a sudden the idealogy changes coz the country changes???

 

[saadibaba]

Yes the British PP's aren't afraid of open debate so rather than criticise, perhaps you should appreciate that we have provided a multinational forum where everyone is welcome, even those who are openly hostile to their hosts!

True, thank you British Pakistanis for giving us PP and all that comes with it.

 

[GentleMan]

Yes the British PP's aren't afraid of open debate so rather than criticise, perhaps you should appreciate that we have provided a multinational forum where everyone is welcome, even those who are openly hostile to their hosts!

you have provided the servers and the forums..but who brings the traffic and the premium content that people log in to see.. W63L35 is an american, and no PPer has matched his contribution in the cricket section. saadibaba is american..and no one has more balanced views than him in TP section. what have British PPers contrbuted, please tell me.. cryptic bitter posts? that only invites more trolls?

 

[endymion248]

the reason you are valuing james opinion because he is white skin..and it is desi mentality to value what a white person says over and above what a brown has to say...because whites are supposed to be neutral and unbiased.

and no offence to james, it is normal to be biased and support everything british and put down everything american.

here the word of an indian values more..because an indian doesnt like pakistanis, no matter where they are from..and indians have no preference over UK or USA..so when indians say that american pakistanis are coolest, this must be taken seriously. and i am not the only one, cricketworm also said that.

No, the opinion of James valued more than yours the moment you used a comparative about people you never met in a country you've never been to.

And it's not just about this thread or the ''From the opinion I formed, I'd refuse a British nationality given it on a plate'' (or something of that order), but also older threads like the one about Muslim Patrols.

 

[pakistanalltheway]

you have provided the servers and the forums..but who brings the traffic and the premium content that people log in to see.. W63L35 is an american, and no PPer has matched his contribution in the cricket section. saadibaba is american..and no one has more balanced views than him in TP section. what have British PPers contrbuted, please tell me.. cryptic bitter posts? that only invites more trolls?

Your smarter than this . If there was no PP how would people like W63L35 have a platform ?

 

[endymion248]

Your smarter than this . If there was no PP how would people like W63L35 have a platform ?

So, all literary excellence can be traced back to Gutenberg?

 

[GentleMan]

No, the opinion of James valued more than yours the moment you used a comparative about people you never met in a country you've never been to.

And it's not just about this thread or the ''From the opinion I formed, I'd refuse a British nationality given it on a plate'' (or something of that order), but also older threads like the one about Muslim Patrols.

oh please..tell that to gullible people.. in todays age a well informed person doesnt have to meet people in person to form an opinion about them..you just have to read and research and knowledge is there. how many pakistanis have been to india..but many times they are not wrong when commenting about india.. so this meeting (tete-a-tete) is baloney.

 

[Pak-Legend]

the reason you are valuing james opinion because he is white skin..and it is desi mentality to value what a white person says over and above what a brown has to say...because whites are supposed to be neutral and unbiased.

and no offence to james, it is normal to be biased and support everything british and put down everything american.

here the word of an indian values more..because an indian doesnt like pakistanis, no matter where they are from..and indians have no preference over UK or USA..so when indians say that american pakistanis are coolest, this must be taken seriously. and i am not the only one, cricketworm also said that.

 

[endymion248]

oh please..tell that to gullible people.. in todays age a well informed person doesnt have to meet people in person to form an opinion about them..you just have to read and research and knowledge is there. how many pakistanis have been to india..but many times they are not wrong when commenting about india.. so this meeting (tete-a-tete) is baloney.

I have to disagree here. For one because internet forums or twitter can never be representative of a whole group (some people tend more to be there than others) and, even if it were, the opinions aired by those people are not necessarily representative of what they think.

However, if you want to say that ''The US Pakistanis I have met on Twitter/PP are better than the British ones met my the same means'', feel free. I would even agree with you.

 

[akheR]

the reason you are valuing james opinion because he is white skin..and it is desi mentality to value what a white person says over and above what a brown has to say...because whites are supposed to be neutral and unbiased.

and no offence to james, it is normal to be biased and support everything british and put down everything american.

here the word of an indian values more..because an indian doesnt like pakistanis, no matter where they are from..and indians have no preference over UK or USA..so when indians say that american pakistanis are coolest, this must be taken seriously. and i am not the only one, cricketworm also said that.

 

[pakistanalltheway]

So, all literary excellence can be traced back to Gutenberg?

That examples way off . The owner of PP put hard work and effort into making PP what it is . For you to come here post on the site and then say British Pakistanis haven't contributed a lot is absolute nonsense and quite insulting .

 

[cricketworm]

It's really not that hard to see from neutral point. There is a clear perception difference between UK ppers and US ppers. I wonder why? Is it because whole US-UK differences? Or is it to do with just perception individually?

 

[GentleMan]

I have to disagree here. For one because internet forums or twitter can never be representative of a whole group (some people tend more to be there than others) and, even if it were, the opinions aired by those people are not necessarily representative of what they think.

However, if you want to say that ''The US Pakistanis I have met on Twitter/PP are better than the British ones met my the same means'', feel free. I would even agree with you.

ok, i will retract my earlier generalization and say that the US pakistanis i have met are better than the British ones I have met online.. and i would pay to meet the American PPers in real life..but i wont meet the British PPers even if they paid me to meet them.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

oh, i didnt have direct contact with american pakistanis either..i meant internet only. look at american ppers..saadibaba, W63L35, LethalSami, Justarslan, Looney..all cook, easy going people.

and look at british pakistanis..namak halaal, kkwc, great khan, captain rishwat.. all having some bitterness. and dear sir, internet forums do count, because people are most honest here. in fact real life experience doesnt count, because people are politically correct.

American PP'ers have their own bitterness, usually expressed against certain regions or ethnicities of Pakistan. I think bitterness is usually age related.

 

[endymion248]

Man mag maar zeggen dat dit koekje echt durft ons alles te zeggen

 

[endymion248]

ok, i will retract my earlier generalization and say that the US pakistanis i have met are better than the British ones I have met online.. and i would pay to meet the American PPers in real life..but i wont meet the British PPers even if they paid me to meet them.

Fair enough

 

[Oxy'sWingMan]

and i would pay to meet the American PPers in real life..but i wont meet the British PPers even if they paid me to meet them.

Saadibaba, I hope you're taking note. This is your chance to make some quick bucks.

 

[endymion248]

That examples way off . The owner of PP put hard work and effort into making PP what it is . For you to come here post on the site and then say British Pakistanis haven't contributed a lot is absolute nonsense and quite insulting .

Gutenberg put a lot of hard work too. Would you be posting here without him?

 

[pakistanalltheway]

Gutenberg put a lot of hard work too. Would you be posting here without him?

Don't you feel like you are belittling Saj and co ?

 

[endymion248]

Get a grip. While PP is a great website and clearly a lot of effort is put in by the admins, it doesn't prove anything about british Pakistanis. And it certainly doesn't mean people shouldn't criticize britpaks. Or that W63L35's posts are attributed to them.

 

[saadibaba]

Saadibaba, I hope you're taking note. This is your chance to make some quick bucks.

I know. Hey how about all you guys meet me in Memphis and have some quality BBQ-Memphis style with me, my treat.

 

[endymion248]

I know. Hey how about all you guys meet me in Memphis and have some quality BBQ-Memphis style with me, my treat.

Just ship my part to Britain

(Henceforth proving British PPers are cheap)