British Pakistanis, less successful compared to North American Pakistanis?

[Fallen King]

[MENTION=396]mani1[/MENTION]

I apologize if you are offended. I am speaking from ground reality. Although, i haven't come across with similar stories in Canada. That being said, i am speaking from ground reality and that includes my family [from father's side] where they are known for jahaalat acts, and some of them live in UK doing the same that affects largely to people around them. Apparently, that is very common routine in Bradford nowadays.

 

[mani1]

[MENTION=396]mani1[/MENTION]

I apologize if you are offended. I am speaking from ground reality. Although, i haven't come across with similar stories in Canada. That being said, i am speaking from ground reality and that includes my family [from father's side] where they are known for jahaalat acts, and some of them live in UK doing the same that affects largely to people around them. Apparently, that is very common routine in Bradford nowadays.

Forced marriages a hidden problem in Canada
Ground-breaking study finds 219 reported cases over just 3 years, cutting across lines of culture and nationality. And there may be many more flying the radar.

The report found that parents, siblings, extended family, grandparents and religious leaders were all involved in pushing individuals into forced marriage. The reasons were mostly cultural (66 per cent), but honour, money and immigration purposes were also behind some forced marriages.

http://www.thestar.com/news/investi...ced_marriages_a_hidden_problem_in_canada.html

Women In Forced Marriages Number In The Hundreds In Ontario

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/09/20/forced-marriages-ontario_n_3965062.html

 

[Buffet]

I'm shocked you don't agree. Please start a thread on this topic and lay out your reasons for dismissing this. ...

I'm not sure why you have posted pictures of white Americans protesting against drones.

Because you asked,

As an American can you ever say openly your nation is engaging in state terrorism against Muslims without being labelled as a traitor?

You can open any thread if you think it's worth discussion and interested folks will participate. I find it a baseless opinion. You may have bias to see everything from religion angle but foreign policy is not really based on religion.

Bangladeshi community in the UK is a disgrace. Vast majority (90%+) are from the Greater Sylhet region in Bangladesh. Some of the most parochial, backward people you'll ever meet. They'll happily live in poverty or have dozens of kids in order to claim higher benefits than be subjected to the ignominy of having their wives go to work. Of course there are exceptions and many people from the community have been successful in British society such as Rushunara Ali, Faisal Islam and more but the community as a whole needs to take a long, hard look at itself and what they've achieved in all these decades other than owning the majority of curry houses in the UK.

From what I understand, Bangladeshis in the US and Canada are generally doing better much better than their British counterparts. Again the Bangladeshi community in North America is much more diverse and not from just one area in particular and much more skilled as well with a greater emphasis on education and careers.

So it seems, problem is mainly due to a large number of folks migrating from the same area of BD to UK and as result they don't really integrate. I suspect the same could be true for British Pakistanis.

It's interesting to see that immigration followed a different trend in UK when compared to US or Canada.

 

[Buffet]

Even Pakistani American women have very low employment rates.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-17.pdf

I do agree with you about British Pakistani and Bangladeshi women not working causing the community as a whole to do badly. Though if you look at stats the rate does seem to be slowly improving.
http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/medialib...mployment-persisted-between-1991-2011 (1).pdf

Thanks for the link. I somehow missed it while scanning the census earlier.

It's surely low but still substantially higher than UK. Also, US has a larger share of first generation immigrants from Pakistan and I think it gets much easier for second generation immigrants to integrate. You would expect UK to have lead in this regard but it's other way around. In 2000, the percentage female of Pakistani origin without work in US was around 63%. I think with current census it should be bit better.

As you said , the situation in UK is improving so I will expect to see a better situation down the line when it comes to the household income. Even for US, Pakistani origin female are lagging because only 43-44% of female of Asian origin are not working but figure is around 63% for female of Pakistani origin. But this gap is ridiculously high in UK.

 

[Atif]

Actually, my family background is in Mirpur; however, i was born in Karachi. Paindo and unsuccessful is not problems which i shouldn't have said that. Unfortunately, Mirpuris including Bradfordistan is known for jahaalat acts; outright inhumane in term of treating women, forced marriage, and other things that Bradford is known for which cannot be said openly. I have family in Bradford.

Despite of what you say, they are not fit for civilizations. It is good thing that i am kept away from those jaahil logs. There is no hope for Mirpur and Bradford. Aghay Allah Jaanay!

I am truly glad that those Mirpuris didn't bring their Jahaalat acts to North America.

There are good and bad Pakistanis everywhere irrelevant what City they are from in UK/Pakistan.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JaDed]

I think this is true not only for Pakistanis but for Desis as general.UK has more concentration of Indians from North side whereas US even eventhough has more population of Telugus it has people from all parts of India.But from what my aunt told me she said 'Desis come here and get divorced and then ask their wife to go back to SC and marry their brother and similarly a chain is done for cousins as such'.
I was wondering if the immigration in USA or Canada is that dumb but it turns out its so true as one more family i knew did same **** as this.This practice though is more popular among the less educated ones.

 

[speed]

Amazing how we measure success in the worldly sense, truly secularized.

 

[Buffet]

Amazing how we measure success in the worldly sense, truly secularized.

Education , poverty, female participation in workforce, income etc are quantifiable and can be used to measure success. Where secular angle comes in play here?

 

[speed]

Education , poverty, female participation in workforce, income etc are quantifiable and can be used to measure success. Where secular angle comes in play here?

Many posters are referring to Monetary definition of success and others talking about big businesses, Education is almost entirely for the dunya ( this world), female participation is not Integral part of Islamic thought as the man is given responsibility of being the breadwinner, not that female participation is Haram, but it takes a back seat to raising a family, in the secular world it is the opposite by and large for the working women with many waiting till after 30 to have kids etc.

 

[Buffet]

Many posters are referring to Monetary definition of success and others talking about big businesses, Education is almost entirely for the dunya ( this world), female participation is not Integral part of Islamic thought as the man is given responsibility of being the breadwinner, not that female participation is Haram, but it takes a back seat to raising a family, in the secular world it is the opposite by and large for the working women with many waiting till after 30 to have kids etc.

I don't think that your idea of branding all this with secular angle is a right way to think. Look at Malaysia.

Income, female participation in workforce, education , poverty etc has nothing to do with secularism. You are saying that education is for this world. Let's entertain your thought about there being an another world after you die. Even then secular is not equal to non-religion. Secular doesn't mean that anyone is stopped from practicing his/her religion.

 

[Yossarian]

British Pakistanis, less successful compared to North American Pakistanis ?

There has been a lot of rubbish posted in this thread vis-a-vis the above question. One must understand the major historical differences between the Pakistani diaspora in the UK versus the USA in order to comprehend why these economic differences exist.

To summarise:

The early Pakistani's who arrived in Britain in the late 50's early 60's came to work primarily as manual labourers in the major industrial towns and cities due to a manpower shortage as Britain tried to rebuild after the war. Most of them were from rural backgrounds, with many either completely uneducated (ie not even able to read or write) or just having basic education. The intention was to stay for a few years, save and send money back to support their extended families, and perhaps buy a plot of land for when they went back. Due to the low wages, cost of flights, and other hardships, it was the 'norm' to not go back and see their parents, wives, children for upwards of five years or more.

Over time they brought their wives and children over to the UK, but still kept sending money back (out of their already low wages) to support elderly parents and/or still strive to buy that plot of land or two. This however meant that there was even less to spend on the familes in the UK => poor housing, deprived run down areas, poor schooling, working long hours and thus less time to spend on the kiids .......all of which had a detrimental effect of the children's education.

This was further exacerbated in the mid-70's onwards when the cotton mills of the North started to close (due to the likes of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh setting up their own cotton mills instead of sending the cotton to the UK for it to be processed, made into cloth and then re-exported back). Other labour intensive industries such as steel mills, car plants, and other manufacturing industries in the Midlands also went down, the net result of which was that the first to be laid off work were the low paid manual workers. The knock on affect of all this is a major cause of the economic (and educational, social) situation of the majority of todays Pakistani's in the UK.


In contrast, those Pakistani's who went to the USA initially were either professionals (doctors, engineers ..) or students ... ie from the educated urban middle classes of Pakistan. Thus they, and their children, already had a head start over their UK counterparts, and hence the differences in their relative economic prosperity today.

 

[shaykh]

Why are American Pakistanis more successful than British ones?...

If one looks at income and race in the USA then one finds that those of Pakistani ethnicity are more successful than white Americans...

In Britain however British Pakistanis are among the least successful economically...

Why are Pakistanis in the US more successful than those in the USA?...

 

[AlCapone]

Well the reason is that most Pakistani-Americans come from big cities like Karachi,Lahore & Islamabad whereas Pakistanis in Britain mainly come from smaller cities like Jhelum and Mirpur -so they happen to be more religious and initially when they arrived in England they didn't have the skills to do white collar jobs.

Another reason is that America has a very selective immigration system, it's not easy to move to America, so most Pakistanis that move to America do so by enrolling in colleges and graduating and getting white collar jobs which gives them a path for citizenship -on the other hand most Pakistanis in England ended up there cause of the Mangla dam construction and cousin marriages.

of course not Brit-Paks are like that, I know many educated and hardworking ones too.

 

[AlCapone]

This is also why Nigerian-Americans are more successful than Nigerians in Europe.

Another reason I can think of, is that America is a land of immigrants and immigrants get embraced and want to be American and contribute to American society.

 

[Buffet]

Following article in New York Times touches some of the points,
.


Pakistanis Find U.S. an Easier Fit Than Britain

.

CHICAGO, Aug. 18 — The stretch of Devon Avenue in North Chicago also named for Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, seems as if it has been transplanted directly from that country. The shops are packed with traditional wedding finery, and the spice mix in the restaurants’ kebabs is just right.

Businesses on Devon Avenue in Chicago, like an Islamic bookstore, attract a large Pakistani clientele.
Similar enclaves in Britain have been under scrutiny since they have proved to be a breeding ground for cells of terrorists, possibly including the 24 men arrested recently as suspects in a plot to blow up airliners flying out of London.

Yet Devon Avenue is in many ways different. Although heavily Pakistani, the street is far more exposed to other cultures than are similar communities in Britain.

Indian Hindus have a significant presence along the roughly one-and-a-half-mile strip of boutiques, whose other half is named for Gandhi. What was a heavily Jewish neighborhood some 20 years ago also includes recent immigrants from Colombia, Mexico and Ukraine, among others.

“There is integration even when you have an enclave,” said Nizam Arain, 32, a lawyer of Pakistani descent who was born and raised in Chicago. “You don’t have the same siege mentality.”

Even so, members of the Pakistani immigrant community here find themselves joining the speculation as to whether sinister plots could be hatched in places like Devon (pronounced deh-VAHN) Avenue.

The most common response is no, at least not now, because of differences that have made Pakistanis in the United States far better off economically and more assimilated culturally than their counterparts in Britain. But some Pakistani-Americans do not rule out the possibility, given how little is understood about the exact tipping point that pushes angry young Muslim men to accept an ideology that endorses suicide and mass murder.

The idea of a relatively smaller, more prosperous, more striving immigrant community inoculating against terror cells goes only so far, they say.

“It makes it sound like it couldn’t happen here because we are the good immigrants: hard-working, close-knit, educated,” said Junaid Rana, an assistant professor of Asian-American studies at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and an American-born son of Pakistani immigrants. “But we are talking about a cult mind-set, how a cult does its brainwashing.”

Yet one major difference between the United States and Britain, some say, is the United States’ historical ideal of being a melting-pot meritocracy.

“You can keep the flavor of your ethnicity, but you are expected to become an American,” said Omer Mozaffar, 34, a Pakistani-American raised here who is working toward a doctorate in Islamic studies at the University of Chicago.

Britain remains far more rigid. In the United States, for example, Pakistani physicians are more likely to lead departments at hospitals or universities than they are in Britain, said Dr. Tariq H. Butt, a 52-year-old family physician who arrived in the United States 25 years ago for his residency.

Nationwide, Pakistanis appear to be prospering. The census calculated that mean household income in the United States in 2002 was $57,852 annually, while that for Asian households, which includes Pakistanis, was $70,047. By contrast, about one-fifth of young British-born Muslims are jobless, and many subsist on welfare.

Hard numbers on how many people of Pakistani descent live in the United States do not exist, but a forthcoming book from Harvard University Press on charitable donations among Pakistani-Americans, “Portrait of a Giving Community,” puts the number around 500,000, with some 35 percent or more of them in the New York metropolitan area. Chicago has fewer than 100,000, while other significant clusters exist in California, Texas and Washington, D.C.

Pakistani immigration to the United States surged after laws in the 1960’s made it easier for Asians to enter the country. Most were drawn by jobs in academia, medicine and engineering. It was only in the late 1980’s and 90’s that Pakistanis arrived to work blue-collar jobs as taxi drivers or shopkeepers, said Adil Najam, the author of the book on donations and an international relations professor at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.

In Britain, by comparison, the first Pakistanis arrived after World War II to work in factories. Many were fleeing sectarian strife in Kashmir — a lingering source of resentment — and entire communities picked up and resettled together. This created Pakistani ghettos in cities like Bradford and Birmingham, whereas in the United States immigrants tended to be scattered and newcomers forced to assimilate. The trends intensified with time.

A decade ago, for example, a Pakistani in Chicago who wanted to buy halal meat, from animals butchered in a religiously sanctioned manner, could find it only on Devon Avenue. Now halal butchers dot the city and its suburbs.

Thousands of immigrants and their American-born offspring still flock to Devon Avenue because of its restaurants and traditional goods, including wedding saris for women and long, elaborate shirts and gilded slippers with curled toes for men. The avenue’s half-dozen rudimentary mosques have a reputation for being more conservative than those elsewhere in Chicago, with the imams emphasizing an adherence to Muslim tradition.

“They go to an area where they have a feeling of nostalgia, and even psychologically it is important for immigrant communities to feel that their home country is represented,” said Dr. Butt, an early member of the Association of Physicians of Pakistani Descent of North America, one of the oldest immigrant organizations here.

But immigrants are not mired in the Devon Avenue neighborhood; many move out once they can afford better. Unlike the situation in Britain, there is no collective history here of frustrated efforts to assimilate into a society where a shortened form of Pakistani is a stinging slur, and there are no centuries-old grievances nursed from British colonial rule over what became Pakistan.

Where such comparisons fail, however, is in providing a model to predict why some young Muslims turn to violence, although no religion is immune. In the United States there have been a few cases of young Pakistani men being arrested or tried in terror plots, in Atlanta and in Lodi, Calif., for example.

Ifti Nasim, a former luxury car salesman turned poet and gay rights advocate, greets a visitor with a slim volume of his works. The cover photograph shows him wearing a bright orange dress, ropes of pearls and a long blond wig. He has been in the United States since 1971.

Some shoppers crowding the sidewalks on Devon Avenue greet Mr. Nasim warmly, telling him they listen to his radio show or read his columns in a local Urdu-language newspaper. In Pakistan, Mr. Nasim says, his flamboyance would not be tolerated, but here he calls his acceptance “the litmus test of the society.”

Like many, however, he has moments of doubt, saying, “Pakistani society in Chicago has made a smooth transition so far, but you never know.”

A more important factor in determining who becomes a militant is most likely the feeling of being stigmatized as less than equal, community activists say, noting that such discrimination remains far more common in Britain. It is probably compounded by the fact that violence against Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Lebanon feels so much closer there, they say.

Overt bigotry is rarer here, but it exists. For instance, Mohamed Hanis, a taxi driver who is a Pakistani immigrant, said that on the Friday night after the terror alert in London, a young white man climbed into his cab. Noticing the name Mohamed, the man threatened to report that Mr. Hanis had admitted to supporting terrorist attacks unless he could get a free ride. Instead, Mr. Hanis hailed a police officer who forced the passenger to pay.

Mr. Mozaffar, the University of Chicago student, said he had grown up with revered Muslim role models like Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul-Jabar, but now there were none. He teaches religion classes for young Muslims, and the question inevitably arises whether the creed justifies using violence for political or religious aims. He emphasizes that Islam forbids killing innocent civilians, and community members here have said they will not tolerate a mosque prayer leader advocating violence.

Initial reports about the British suspects quoted neighbors as saying that some of the men had become more religious, adopting Islamic dress and praying five times a day. That kind of transformation happens in Chicago, too, but the idea that any such change should automatically arouse suspicion rather than be considered teenage rebellion or a religious conversion makes community activists bridle.

For the past eight years, Abdul Qadeer Sheikh, 46, has managed Islamic Books N Things on Devon Avenue, which sells items like Korans, prayer rugs and Arabic alphabet books. He says that since Sept. 11, he has seen signs of the bias that has existed in Britain for decades developing here. He describes a distinctive fear of being seen as Muslim, even along Devon Avenue. Before, a good 70 percent of the women who came into his shop were veiled, he said. Now the reverse is true, and far fewer men wear traditional clothes.

The attitude of the American government in adopting terms like “Islamic fascists” and deporting large numbers of immigrants, he said, makes Muslims feel marked, as if they do not belong here. “The society in the United States is much fairer to foreigners than anywhere else,” he said, “but that mood is changing.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/21/u...r=0&adxnnlx=1362153620-dt4dSb0/Ho eFwZqIWBdMg

-------------------------

I will say that there are 3 major reasons.

• Two countries have a different culture when it comes to immigrants.
• The first generation of American Pakistanis were more skilled than British Pakistanis.
• Then USA and Britain are not comparable in economic opportunities. Apart from economic size, Britain would have been the poorest state in US if Britain was a state of USA.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

1. UK Pakistanis feel more connected to Pakistan, your politicians spend so much time in the UK. They have more political awareness. Its astonishing how Atlaf bhai manages to controls MQM sitting in London. Likes of Nawaz and Zardari spend years in UK instead of sitting in opposition.

2. Sports and Cultural ties, Americans don't play Cricket and South Asian celebrities enjoy limelight in UK.

3. Lesser time zone difference and much easier to get tourist Visa for Mullahs to brainwash UK youth.

4. UK is also to blame.

I think US Pakistanis completely become different person, adopt new interests, integrate into new society far better due to above factors.

 

[TSA321]

• Two countries have a different culture when it comes to immigrants.

• 
  There are tonnes of immigrant communities that are unsuccessful in the USA and there are tonnes that are successful in the UK, so this point doesn't really hold.
  

  [*]Then USA and Britain are not comparable in economic opportunities. Apart from economic size, Britain would have been the poorest state in US if Britain was a state of USA.

Evidence?

 

[TSA321]

Messed up the above post.. was gonna ask for evidence for the bit in bold.

 

[Buffet]

There are tonnes of immigrant communities that are unsuccessful in the USA and there are tonnes that are successful in the UK, so this point doesn't really hold.

Point is a valid one. Taking about some examples here and there won't tell us a big picture. Look at the over all immigrants communities in US and compare that to UK. Take a average case scenario and you will notice a difference.

 

[Buffet]

Messed up the above post.. was gonna ask for evidence for the bit in bold.

I stand corrected. It won't be the poorest but the second poorest state in US. On Purchasing power basis, it will be the poorest. You can see the entire table below.

--------------

Britain Is Poorer Than Any US State: Yes, Even Mississippi
.

Fraser has used the average PPP for the US. But as we can see there’s different PPP adjustments for different States. If $100 will buy you $115 worth of goods in Mississippi this is the same statement as the correct PPP adjustment for Mississippi incomes, or in this case GDP, is 100:115. Or, if you prefer, Mississippi’s properly PPP adjusted GDP per capita is $40,400 or so: well above the UK’s $36,200.

And yes, it is generally (although not necessarily wholly) true that PPP adjustments like this raise income and or GDP in poorer places and lower them in richer. So we would expect properly adjusting for all poor State GDPs by State PPPs to increase the recorded incomes in all of those poor States.

Britain really is poorer than even the poorest of the US States, yes, including even Mississippi.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...oorer-than-any-us-state-yes-even-mississippi/

----------------

.
Why Britain is poorer than any US state, other than Mississippi
.

I came across a striking fact while researching this piece: if Britain were to somehow leave the EU and join the US we’d be the 2nd-poorest state in the union. Poorer than Missouri. Poorer than the much-maligned Kansas and Alabama. Poorer than any state other than Mississippi


http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...rer-than-any-us-state-other-than-mississippi/

--------------

 

[Laal]

In the US, Pakistanis tend to try and assimilate over the generations. They don't live in ethnic enclaves and inter-mingle with the other communities on a daily basis. Also, a large number came here as international students, and are now well-settled.

 

[endymion248]

I don't belong to either nation but I have been to both and my observations are the following.

The defining factor here is simply the kind of people who make the migration. British Pakistanis are mostly uneducated rurals looking for blue collar jobs in Europe while American Pakistanis are selected for their skill levels. Case in point, how come african americans or hispanic americans are not as successful as american pakistanis? Why are blacks better integrated in british society than american society?

Another factor is the purely pecunar and peculiar nature of american integration and american dream. Someone who works hard and earns a lot of money will be considered integrated while, ceteris paribus, british people don't really judge a people by the size of their financial portfolio. While this seems positive, there is also an elitist and classeist aspect to it (since you are born into a given social stratum and it's almost impossible to escape it through simple hard work).

Also, why does GDP per capita matter in this case? The US has many more billionaires than the UK, which doesn't matter one bit to a new immigrant. Social mobility and social equality are much more important factors in predicting integration and, in both aspects, the US are lagging behind almost every single developped country.

 

[Buffet]

Also, why does GDP per capita matter in this case? The US has many more billionaires than the UK, which doesn't matter one bit to a new immigrant.

Fair criticism for per capita but here is a simple look at how bottom 5, 10, 20 , 50% of population do in both countries.

 

[AlCapone]

I think Pakistani-Canadians are in between Pakistani-Americans and British-Pakistanis in terms of assimilation.

After Pakistani-Americans, the Pakistani-Australians are the best integrated even more than Pakistani-Canadians.

 

[endymion248]

Fair criticism for per capita but here is a simple look at how bottom 5, 10, 20 , 50% of population do in both countries.

Ok, so let's say I am an immigrant in the both 50% of both countries and do about average, which means that earn about 23k$ in US and 19k$ in the UK. Everything is supposed to cost the same but this doesn't mean that we have the same expenses. For example, almost everywhere in the US, you would need to own a car and pay for gas while low earning people have free public transportation in the UK (and there is no comparison between the quality of public transpor) or can use bikes. Then, you have healthcare. Poor people are healthier in the UK and thus have less medical expenses (or loss of income when they are sick) and, even when they have medical expenses, it costs them less. They don't have to own a gym membership because those are subsidized by the government (same for healthier food). You also don't have to save up for your kids college (in fact, you receive money when you have kids). So, all in all, they may have the same income but the amount of disposable income is different due to lower expenses.

 

[Buffet]

Ok, so let's say I am an immigrant in the both 50% of both countries and do about average, which means that earn about 23k$ in US and 19k$ in the UK. Everything is supposed to cost the same but this doesn't mean that we have the same expenses. For example, almost everywhere in the US, you would need to own a car and pay for gas while low earning people have free public transportation in the UK (and there is no comparison between the quality of public transpor) or can use bikes. Then, you have healthcare. Poor people are healthier in the UK and thus have less medical expenses (or loss of income when they are sick) and, even when they have medical expenses, it costs them less. They don't have to own a gym membership because those are subsidized by the government (same for healthier food). You also don't have to save up for your kids college (in fact, you receive money when you have kids). So, all in all, they may have the same income but the amount of disposable income is different due to lower expenses.

Graph was not for the nominal income. It was for the purchasing power. In the US food is generally cheaper than it is in Europe, medical care generally more expensive. In US you have dastically lower cost of fuel which gets balanced out by something being far cheaper in UK and so on....

So everything considered, that's the purchasing power of the bottom 5, 10, 50 and 95% of population. None of those will include billionaires so we can forget about that factor.


From the same Forbes article,

------------------------

As an example of output from the LIS they had a wonderful paper a decade ago showing that the bottom 10% in the US have the same incomes (yes, PPP adjusted) as the bottom 10% in either Sweden or Finland. While the top 10% have very much larger incomes than the top 10% in either country. All that redistribution hasn’t made the Nordic poor richer than the American poor but it has made the rich poorer.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...oorer-than-any-us-state-yes-even-mississippi/

-------------------------

So you were right about disparity between rich and poor being higher in USA but poor in USA are not necessarily poorer then many other countries. Gap between rich and poor doesn't mean that poor in US are worse off. Only difference is that rich in UK are worse off than rich in USA. Except bottom 5%, all segment in USA are better off. So if you are an immigrant then you will be better off unless you are in bottom 5%. I don't think that too many immigrant community will fall into bottom 5%.

 

[endymion248]

Graph was not for the nominal income. It was for the purchasing power. In the US food is generally cheaper than it is in Europe, medical care generally more expensive. In US you have dastically lower cost of fuel which gets balanced out by something being far cheaper in UK and so on....

So everything considered, that's the purchasing power of the bottom 5, 10, 50 and 95% of population. None of those will include billionaires so we can forget about that factor.


From the same Forbes article,

------------------------

As an example of output from the LIS they had a wonderful paper a decade ago showing that the bottom 10% in the US have the same incomes (yes, PPP adjusted) as the bottom 10% in either Sweden or Finland. While the top 10% have very much larger incomes than the top 10% in either country. All that redistribution hasn’t made the Nordic poor richer than the American poor but it has made the rich poorer.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...oorer-than-any-us-state-yes-even-mississippi/

-------------------------

So you were right about disparity between rich and poor being higher in USA but poor in USA are not necessarily poorer then many other countries. Gap between rich and poor doesn't mean that poor in US are worse off. Only difference is that rich in UK are worse off than rich in USA. Except bottom 5%, all segment in USA are better off. So if you are an immigrant then you will be better off unless you are in bottom 5%. I don't think that too many immigrant community will fall into bottom 5%.

That's what I am saying, same income at purchasing power parity doesn't translate into the same living standards and/or same disposable income.

 

[Buffet]

That's what I am saying, same income at purchasing power parity doesn't translate into the same living standards and/or same disposable income.

I think we are mixing two things here.

Purchasing power accounts for many thing - like healthcare, food, gas and so on. Simply said, the bottom 20,30 or 90% of US population has more purchasing power. As result, they do have more disposable income. Taking account of all local living cost, bottom 5% are better off in UK than USA. For all other segments, USA is better and folks will have more money to spend. I am only talking about financially here.

Now as far as standard of living is concerned, it won't be captured with the graph I presented.

 

[Bewal Express]

It may not be politically correct but having monitored IQ scores( I helped to stream children in high school) of Pakistani children transferring from Primary to High school over a long period of time, the basic, simplest and also the best explanation is that our children's intelligence on the whole is actually lower than some of the other communities. It was always the Indians and Chinese on top but in more recent years the Polish kids have been outstripping everyone.
The other reason is that we have a culture amongst our youth that worships black inner city lifestyle and values.

 

[mithun_minhas]

America allows immigration of educated Aliens to their country. So people who have some king of bachelors degree or Masters Degree are preferred over illiterate hourly wage workers.

Obviously many Pa Americans are educated bunch and are more successful.

 

[TSA321]

It may not be politically correct but having monitored IQ scores( I helped to stream children in high school) of Pakistani children transferring from Primary to High school over a long period of time, the basic, simplest and also the best explanation is that our children's intelligence on the whole is actually lower than some of the other communities. It was always the Indians and Chinese on top but in more recent years the Polish kids have been outstripping everyone.
The other reason is that we have a culture amongst our youth that worships black inner city lifestyle and values.

If you look here, we start off miles behind everyone else but eventually catch up by age 16. There's definitely a problem with parents not educating their kids it seems.

 

[endymion248]

I think we are mixing two things here.

Purchasing power accounts for many thing - like healthcare, food, gas and so on. Simply said, the bottom 20,30 or 90% of US population has more purchasing power. As result, they do have more disposable income. Taking account of all local living cost, bottom 5% are better off in UK than USA. For all other segments, USA is better and folks will have more money to spend. I am only talking about financially here.

Now as far as standard of living is concerned, it won't be captured with the graph I presented.

Does it really account for those things?

-Gas: Americans consume much more of it per capita than brits.

-Food: Same.

-Healtchare: it's not just about how much your health insurance costs vs how much you pay to NHS. You have to take into account how much money you lose by being less healthy and all the perks that are included in NHS and not in health insurance because NHS is a governmental agency and, as such, has a vertical integration with a lot of different actors (ex: biking initiatives by the towns). For example, when you are sick and can't work for a month, is that included in health expenses to calculate the PPP?

So, maybe gas costs less in US than UK but PPP doesn't account for differences in consumption afaik and as such is flawed. They either take us gas consumption and give an excessive weight to it in comparing the pound and the dollar or don't give it enough by taking uk consumption. I am just a med student so I may be wrong in this but that's my understanding of GDP at PPP.

 

[AlCapone]

It may not be politically correct but having monitored IQ scores( I helped to stream children in high school) of Pakistani children transferring from Primary to High school over a long period of time, the basic, simplest and also the best explanation is that our children's intelligence on the whole is actually lower than some of the other communities. It was always the Indians and Chinese on top but in more recent years the Polish kids have been outstripping everyone.
The other reason is that we have a culture amongst our youth that worships black inner city lifestyle and values.

Well most Brit-Paks come from smaller towns, so they have that tough mentality like inner city blacks which is why there are many British-Pakistani athletes and singers but not many Pakistani-Americans, so there's a positive side of having small town roots.

 

[Buffet]

That's what I am saying, same income at purchasing power parity doesn't translate into the same living standards and/or same disposable income.

About disposable income - Here is data from Office for National Statistics.
.


.

UK has actually become worse off in the last 5-10 years. Here is a comparison from 2005 to 2011.
.





http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_310463.pdf

----------------------------

I agree that living standard is not really only about disposable income. I will rate a person having less disposable income and zero commute as higher living standard than some one having more disposable income and 2 hour daily commute. I haven't looked into the living standard comparisons in details yet. I guess, it becomes bit more subjective here but I don't think that US is one of the top 3-5 big countries in world when it comes to living standard.

 

[Bewal Express]

If you look here, we start off miles behind everyone else but eventually catch up by age 16. There's definitely a problem with parents not educating their kids it seems.

In a sense it is the perfect storm, kids with relatively low intelligence with parents who don't care and are too busy on the taxis( generalisations I know) but sadly and painfully for me, they are too true.

 

[Buffet]

Does it really account for those things?

-Gas: Americans consume much more of it per capita than brits.

-Food: Same.

-Healtchare: it's not just about how much your health insurance costs vs how much you pay to NHS. You have to take into account how much money you lose by being less healthy and all the perks that are included in NHS and not in health insurance because NHS is a governmental agency and, as such, has a vertical integration with a lot of different actors (ex: biking initiatives by the towns). For example, when you are sick and can't work for a month, is that included in health expenses to calculate the PPP?

So, maybe gas costs less in US than UK but PPP doesn't account for differences in consumption afaik and as such is flawed. They either take us gas consumption and give an excessive weight to it in comparing the pound and the dollar or don't give it enough by taking uk consumption. I am just a med student so I may be wrong in this but that's my understanding of GDP at PPP.

You are right. I don't think that it accounts for difference in consumption but it does a fairly decent job of giving a bit more normalized view of comparing income of two countries. Basically, what 10K will get you in two different countries. It takes account of your travel cost, food cost, healthcare cost and bunch of other things. Not 100% accurate and it has flaws but it gives us a rough way to compare.

You know more about economy than I know about med. I need to learn some of your stuff I recently picked up a basic book on med after some one recommend it, but I haven't read it so far.

Well, I am not an economist but I do compare various economic data for some other purpose. UK was just out of interest due to me participating in PP and many posters here coming from UK. UK does have many decent available gov stats.

 

[TSA321]

In a sense it is the perfect storm, kids with relatively low intelligence with parents who don't care and are too busy on the taxis( generalisations I know) but sadly and painfully for me, they are too true.

I should add though that there are some areas where British Pakistani kids seem to be doing well.

From 2004

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It may not be politically correct but having monitored IQ scores( I helped to stream children in high school) of Pakistani children transferring from Primary to High school over a long period of time, the basic, simplest and also the best explanation is that our children's intelligence on the whole is actually lower than some of the other communities. It was always the Indians and Chinese on top but in more recent years the Polish kids have been outstripping everyone.
The other reason is that we have a culture amongst our youth that worships black inner city lifestyle and values.

Did you monitor nationally or locally? if locally, the demographic would have a significant impact.

 

[Buffet]

It may not be politically correct but having monitored IQ scores( I helped to stream children in high school) of Pakistani children transferring from Primary to High school over a long period of time, the basic, simplest and also the best explanation is that our children's intelligence on the whole is actually lower than some of the other communities. It was always the Indians and Chinese on top but in more recent years the Polish kids have been outstripping everyone.
The other reason is that we have a culture amongst our youth that worships black inner city lifestyle and values.

I am not too sure about any group having a low intelligence as long as we are talking about a decent size group.

Why do you think that Pakistani as a group fair low in your monitored test? I would think that it has pretty much all to do with the environment they grow rather than their basic intelligence level. As some one pointed out, they do catch up. It means, more exposure to outside environment helps them to catch up. As they grow, they have more outside exposure. Some gap may still remain but that's because they are still influenced by home environment.

I would think that if Pakistani kids get the same environment as India or Chinese kids then they will perform roughly the same in all phase. I live in Washington DC area. I can tell you that Indian and Chinese are mad about their kids getting the best education. Chinese are actually more focused that Indians. Even with two income family they put their life on hold and spend plenty of time with kids. I am very sure that an average kid getting that kind of attention is likely to do well. Kid can be from any national origin.

 

[FreeBird]

It's not as easy to suck on social welfare and govt subsidies here in the U.S as it is in Europe.

You HAVE to work to earn it here.
And when you work, your chances of success are automatically increased.

Simple as that.

 

[Bewal Express]

Did you monitor nationally or locally? if locally, the demographic would have a significant impact.

It was mid range comprehensive with an average of a round 40-50 students(from Pakistani Backgrounds) per annum over 14 years. Although the sample wasn't huge, it was a typically Pakistani community with most dads as taxi drivers, and quite a few fast food businesses.

 

[Laparwah]

They are well educated compared to Brit Pakistanis who are much more in to mullah culture.

 

[Bewal Express]

Most of the kids were not into mullah culture, more of a mixture of many cultures with the most destructive being the drug culture.

 

[saadibaba]

I've previously devoted a lot of time and energy in threads like this one so really don't want to repeat myself. I do think we are comparing apples and oranges here. People go to US to make money, people go to UK to get govt. benefits. Simple as that.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It was mid range comprehensive with an average of a round 40-50 students(from Pakistani Backgrounds) per annum over 14 years. Although the sample wasn't huge, it was a typically Pakistani community with most dads as taxi drivers, and quite a few fast food businesses.

You didn't answer about the locality vs national. Don't be shy, I think I know which region you are talking about.

 

[Bhaijaan]

From financial point of view, its the same even for Indians. Those settled in USA are the cream of the expatriates which is all pretty easy to figure out. USA is THE land of opportunities and those that were there at the right time in the right place made the most. General perception in India is, the most intelligent Indians go to US to do high end jobs, those who are not intelligent but have some money to start business or some low end skills to find low end jobs go to UK, those who are neither intelligent nor have the financial backing go to Australia, NZ, UAE etc and labourers.


The class difference however seems more apparent within Pakistanis because of the weird (no offense) interest in politics and religion which isn't a massive deal with Indians except for maybe the Khalistani Sikhs but then they don't wanna be classified as Indians (although they could stoop to any level to get back and take advantage of our booming economy).

 

[Yossarian]

From Post #811 above.

British Pakistanis, less successful compared to North American Pakistanis ?

There has been a lot of rubbish posted in this thread vis-a-vis the above question. One must understand the major historical differences between the Pakistani diaspora in the UK versus the USA in order to comprehend why these economic differences exist.

To summarise:

The early Pakistani's who arrived in Britain in the late 50's early 60's came to work primarily as manual labourers in the major industrial towns and cities due to a manpower shortage as Britain tried to rebuild after the war. Most of them were from rural backgrounds, with many either completely uneducated (ie not even able to read or write) or just having basic education. The intention was to stay for a few years, save and send money back to support their extended families, and perhaps buy a plot of land for when they went back. Due to the low wages, cost of flights, and other hardships, it was the 'norm' to not go back and see their parents, wives, children for upwards of five years or more.

Over time they brought their wives and children over to the UK, but still kept sending money back (out of their already low wages) to support elderly parents and/or still strive to buy that plot of land or two. This however meant that there was even less to spend on the familes in the UK => poor housing, deprived run down areas, poor schooling, working long hours and thus less time to spend on the kiids .......all of which had a detrimental effect of the children's education.

This was further exacerbated in the mid-70's onwards when the cotton mills of the North started to close (due to the likes of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh setting up their own cotton mills instead of sending the cotton to the UK for it to be processed, made into cloth and then re-exported back). Other labour intensive industries such as steel mills, car plants, and other manufacturing industries in the Midlands also went down, the net result of which was that the first to be laid off work were the low paid manual workers. The knock on affect of all this is a major cause of the economic (and educational, social) situation of the majority of todays Pakistani's in the UK.


In contrast, those Pakistani's who went to the USA initially were either professionals (doctors, engineers ..) or students ... ie from the educated urban middle classes of Pakistan. Thus they, and their children, already had a head start over their UK counterparts, and hence the differences in their relative economic prosperity today.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

From financial point of view, its the same even for Indians. Those settled in USA are the cream of the expatriates which is all pretty easy to figure out. USA is THE land of opportunities and those that were there at the right time in the right place made the most. General perception in India is, the most intelligent Indians go to US to do high end jobs, those who are not intelligent but have some money to start business or some low end skills to find low end jobs go to UK, those who are neither intelligent nor have the financial backing go to Australia, NZ, UAE etc and labourers.


The class difference however seems more apparent within Pakistanis because of the weird (no offense) interest in politics and religion which isn't a massive deal with Indians except for maybe the Khalistani Sikhs but then they don't wanna be classified as Indians (although they could stoop to any level to get back and take advantage of our booming economy).

I don't know about that, I am always thinking why are all these Indian at home and abroad always so infatuated about religion and politics in Pakistan and those Pakistanis who live abroad. We have Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi members here who don't get involved in these discussions at all by contrast.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Can we have a comparison between british caucasians and american caucasians too and why america has a better gdp than britain

 

[Bhaijaan]

I don't know about that, I am always thinking why are all these Indian at home and abroad always so infatuated about religion and politics in Pakistan and those Pakistanis who live abroad. We have Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi members here who don't get involved in these discussions at all by contrast.

I think its to do with the fact that Indians are usually very eager to discover how and why the Pakistanis differ so much despite being their fellow countrymen not too long ago in history. So its like every Indian devotes some time learning Pakistani way of life and then whatever he learns he would discuss with group of 5-10 Indians over a cup of tea/coffee.

 

[Stewie]

Indians have a lot of misconceptions about Pakistanis and vice versa so I am not surprised to see here in the us Indians actually being g very curious about us.

Pakistanis on the other hand I have noticed love to watch Indian movies and stuff but don't care that much about socializing with Indians or are not so curious about them as their Indian counterparts. I can't say for sure why though

 

[Atif]

There are a lot of deluded posters in this thread!


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

They Call America as a Land of Oppurtunities.


I think America is more Islamic than Pakistan when a person decides to start a business and how the society and government organisations treat him :

Tahir Javed has his story

[UTUBE]2I9ShfR6zIA[/UTUBE]

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I wonder how the good people of America would see this guy? The ones who voted for Trump lest we forget.

 

[JaDed]

Indians have a lot of misconceptions about Pakistanis and vice versa so I am not surprised to see here in the us Indians actually being g very curious about us.

Pakistanis on the other hand I have noticed love to watch Indian movies and stuff but don't care that much about socializing with Indians or are not so curious about them as their Indian counterparts. I can't say for sure why though

Im guessing thats not an all Indian phenomenon, from where Im south of India have seen people rarely care or talk about Pakistan.

My parents were in NA for more than an year n half and they made friends from across Pakistan/Bangladesh without issues and they are Punjabis so easier to get along.

Im sure my generation growing up in South India will neither be curious nor discriminate based on countries if meeting someone.

 

[MenInG]

Old thread but wonder if original premise still holds true?

 

[shortbread]

Old thread but wonder if original premise still holds true?

The US is the world's largest economy with many world leading sectors like tech, is energy independent and most importantly can freely print money. The UK has been stagnating for more than a decade, lost access to our largest trading partner, a burgeoning fiscal deficit, rampant inflation, poverty en-masse and is completely clueless as to how to get out of this rut. The last time a british PM tried to print money she lost to a cabbage!

Nothing to do with ethnicity, Britain is less successful than America, period!

 

[Stewie]

The US is the world's largest economy with many world leading sectors like tech, is energy independent and most importantly can freely print money. The UK has been stagnating for more than a decade, lost access to our largest trading partner, a burgeoning fiscal deficit, rampant inflation, poverty en-masse and is completely clueless as to how to get out of this rut. The last time a british PM tried to print money she lost to a cabbage!

Nothing to do with ethnicity, Britain is less successful than America, period!

Let us not forget they are given the state welfare system to abuse and unfortunately desis (yes that includes all of subcontinent) love to abuse it when and where possible. that results in stagnation. Why work hard or study hard when the govt cheddar is there.

No such thing in the US, you gotta earn it. No free housing, medical, etc. They will give you assistance like foodstamps, etc but its nowhere as much assistance as UK and Europe offer.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Let us not forget they are given the state welfare system to abuse and unfortunately desis (yes that includes all of subcontinent) love to abuse it when and where possible. that results in stagnation. Why work hard or study hard when the govt cheddar is there.

No such thing in the US, you gotta earn it. No free housing, medical, etc. They will give you assistance like foodstamps, etc but its nowhere as much assistance as UK and Europe offer.

It's just a difference in philosophies. Europe in general has more social welfare, in the US there is more of a capitalist mindset. Which is ironically closer to subcontinent nations to be honest.

 

[shortbread]

Let us not forget they are given the state welfare system to abuse and unfortunately desis (yes that includes all of subcontinent) love to abuse it when and where possible. that results in stagnation. Why work hard or study hard when the govt cheddar is there.

No such thing in the US, you gotta earn it. No free housing, medical, etc. They will give you assistance like foodstamps, etc but its nowhere as much assistance as UK and Europe offer.

True, the benefit cheats are a drain to the economy. Of course there's poverty and homelessness in the US, but the society is designed for survival of the fittest. It encourages the populace to work harder. But it's not like sheer laziness is the only reason why there's increasing poverty in Britain.

A lot of the ethnic minorities in the UK used to invest and thrive in small businesses, corner shops, take aways, fuel pumps etc... but they're all shutting shop. Inflation, business rates, energy prices, it has simply become unsustainable! UK is increasingly pushing it's middle class towards poverty.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Are British Pakistanis less successful (in terms of assimilating into Western society and adapting positively to their environment) compared to American and Canadian Pakistanis?

Obviously, forming generalizations based upon upon YouTube videos and the news, doesn't give us an accurate representation of the broader and general Pakistani population in Great Britain. However, for those who are British - what is your response to the media's portrayal of British Pakistanis? Is this an accurate portrayal or do these hooligans only make up a small percentage of the entire Pakistani population?

Could there also be the possibility of similarities existing between the Black/Hispanic population in North America and the Pakistani population in Great Britain? (In terms of issues such as drugs, gangs, grooming, poverty) What about in comparison to the Bengali and Indian communities in Great Britain?

Last but not least, how do these hooligans even make it to the news and into these documentaries - while hardworking, law abiding Pakistani citizens go unnoticed? You rarely hear of any of these problems arising amongst the North American Pakistani community.

Video I'm mainly referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es7TeAJYDB4

A video showing the 'positive' side?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrR_NzV11JQ

There are many factors behind it that have been pointed in the replies above but to answer your question - there is a difference of day and night:

 

[Stewie]

True, the benefit cheats are a drain to the economy. Of course there's poverty and homelessness in the US, but the society is designed for survival of the fittest. It encourages the populace to work harder. But it's not like sheer laziness is the only reason why there's increasing poverty in Britain.

A lot of the ethnic minorities in the UK used to invest and thrive in small businesses, corner shops, take aways, fuel pumps etc... but they're all shutting shop. Inflation, business rates, energy prices, it has simply become unsustainable! UK is increasingly pushing it's middle class towards poverty.

Inflation has hit the entire world equally hard. there are a lot of people struggling in the USA as well. I think all thing considered, British Pakistanis overall are behind their NA counterparts and have been even before the pandemic induced inflation began. The demographics of people going to both countries will probably give you a good idea why. USA immigration is difficult to crack and most people who come here were either on student visas, such as doctors, and other skilled pros or chain migration of such people who mostly ended up being skilled pros as well. Then there are business owners and very few working class types.

In the UK, pakistanis come from all sorts of demoraphics, working class types, villagers, etc. Also, if you want to run a business, US also offers a lot of tax breaks and whatnot which UK does not so small to medium sized business owners generally thrive here.

Lately, I have noticed this alarming trend of UK pakistanis showing signs of extremism (for whatever reasons) and i keep reading about how masjids in the UK, the clerics there etc have taken a turn for the worse. I am no expert in this subject, just stating what i have observed. You get that feeling from reading the posts of the UK posters here too. They seem to align with everything conservative, even ultra conservative western right out of some misguided notion that they align more with our values, a very weird dynamic indeed. So far I have not seen any such trends in the American Pakistanis.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I wish Pakistanis in the USA well, if they are doing fine great. We don't really hear much about them over on this side of the Atlantic, there's only one who has really made a name for himself, and that's Shahid Khan, the owner of Fulham FC.

 

[daytrader]

President Biden appoints Pakistani-American Shahid Ahmed Khan for ‘prestigious advisory role’

BOSTON: US President Joe Biden's has appointed Shahid Ahmed Khan to the prestigious President’s Advisory Committee on the Arts (PACA), the White House confirmed via a statement released on May 12, The News reported Sunday.

The PACA, an institution steeped in history since its establishment in 1958, has been a steadfast pillar of support for the John F. Kennedy Centre for the Performing Arts.

The committee serves as a nationwide lattice, intricately weaving together the nation’s artistic consciousness and extending the centre’s vision.

The handpicked members, often leaders within their respective communities, are recognised as ‘Ambassadors for the Arts.’

Khan, an illustrious personality within the Greater Boston area, brings to the PACA a rich tapestry of experience spanning over two decades in international affairs.

His focus on the Asian and Muslim world is reflected in his tireless work as a community leader, political adviser, and entrepreneur, advocating for US values and principles through sustained dialogue and engagement.

Khan’s illustrious career trajectory includes significant roles as a trustee for the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee and as an advisory board member of the Democratic National Committee.

His pivotal role as the national finance co-chair for John Kerry’s 2004 Presidential campaign and his subsequent advisory roles across a myriad of US campaigns underscore his strategic acumen and dedication to public service.

Moreover, Khan was instrumental in galvanising the South Asian-American community during Biden's presidential campaign.

A recognised luminary in South Asian affairs, Khan has also founded Triconboston Consulting Corporation, lending his expertise to companies within the renewable energy, IT, and healthcare sectors.

“The addition of Khan to the President’s Advisory Committee on the Arts is a cause for celebration,” a PACA representative said.

“His rich experiences, profound insights, and unique perspective promise to amplify our mission and extend our influence immeasurably.”

This appointment is a tribute to the meaningful contributions of Pakistani-Americans to the social and cultural fabric of the US society, showcasing the influential role they continue to play in shaping the nation’s future.

Geo News