British Pakistanis, less successful compared to North American Pakistanis?

[GentleMan]

except amir khan, i never heard of any prominent BritPak..and even amir khan, i heard on PP. So much for fame and visibility.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Which Islamic republic? Pakistan is far from being a Islamic republic. I have not seen many who feel proud for this kind of Islamic republic. You can say that they are risking their life for country then it's fine. But that's their job and they get paid for that. Now days , almost every army in world is filled with people who don't have better options so they chose army. Not everyone but that's the majority.

It is an Islamic Republic, the constitutions confirm this. Of course corrupt people in power have made a mockery or this but doesn't take away the foundations of the country and there is always the future. It's easy to say it's their job while sitting on your backside on a forum.

You made some daft points about terrorists training in Pakistan. This is hillarious since the biggest terrorist is the USA, they have no moral high ground to call anyone a terrorist, yet we have slave minded so called AmericanPaks who support their terrorism against Pakistan. These people are either deluded or traitors, take your pick.

 

[KingKhanWC]

except amir khan, i never heard of any prominent BritPak..and even amir khan, i heard on PP. So much for fame and visibility.

Your personal general knowledge isn't really a good indication. Stick to watching ugly girls dancing like clowns on a Bollywood movie

 

[ElRaja]

except amir khan, i never heard of any prominent BritPak..and even amir khan, i heard on PP. So much for fame and visibility.

i meant britpaks famous in britain, to the average britisher, compared to ampaks who are well known amongst the average american.

cant believe i have to explain something that simple.... knowing im replying to someone as slow as you really demotivates when it comes to addressing points you raise, if i ignore you in the future, youll know why.

 

[GentleMan]

in my university, there is a professor of Pakistani origin..and he has so much funding that he employs an army of professors under him..and he is the only professor who has got another office just for his personal secretary..he is an expert in a field that gets million dollars of funding.. and these are examples of successful people..not the pop singer or the TV soap star. but to each his own definition of success.

 

[Buffet]

i think what rishwat was getting at was if there was anyone ampak who could be considered easily recognisable to an average american...

here i can think of a few guys, amir khan and james caan, zayn from that boy band, maybe mishal hussain,nearly all my non pakistani mates would know about at least one or two of them.

Well, average person is not going to recognize grand success story like Shahid Khan or Michael Chowdry. I know about them because I read WSJ each day but less than 1% of population reads WSJ.

Average person is going to recognize from mainly two sources, sports or entertainment. Those two have very wide audience. Chances of some one doing well in those field will increase 10 fold if population of AmPak is same as BritPak on percentage basis. It's very simple concept.

 

[Buffet]

You made some daft points about terrorists training in Pakistan. This is hillarious since the biggest terrorist is the USA, they have no moral high ground to call anyone a terrorist, yet we have slave minded so called AmericanPaks who support their terrorism against Pakistan. These people are either deluded or traitors, take your pick.

Are you for real? Who is talking about moral high ground. I was simply replying to a direct question by fellow PPers. You can put "USA is biggest terrorist in your signature" and stop writing that when topic is not about it. That will save everyone from reading irrelevant statement 1000s times when we are discussing something else.

Or you can open a topic with "USA is biggest terrorist, discuss" & stick to that thread. Interested people will go and discuss in that thread.

 

[GentleMan]

i have already raised points that no one answered.. UK has very high population density..same as vietnam..high density leads to more interaction among people..more assimilation..despite that i read that BritPaks havent assimilated well.

in USA, there is very very low population density.. individual private life is preferred..people want their own space..

there was rampant racism against Pakistanis in UK..the derogatory term originated there..so it is obvious why to safeguard their interests BritPaks had to gather together and join politics. (which is a great thing btw) but it is dumb to compare it with USAPaks..who didnt have to face all that..whatever bad they had to face was after 9/11 and that is a global thing btw..still Pakistani population has doubled after that..meaning educated Pakistanis still prefer USA.

and the celebs is another dumb point..Bollywood is 60% Muslims..that means everything is good with Indian Muslims? Blacks dominate music and sports in USA..so everything is hunk dory..

and lol at calling me slow..what if you cant be successful..hey let us change the definition of success so that we can fit into it..and feel better about ourselves.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Are you for real? Who is talking about moral high ground. I was simply replying to a direct question by fellow PPers. You can put "USA is biggest terrorist in your signature" and stop writing that when topic is not about it. That will save everyone from reading irrelevant statement 1000s times when we are discussing something else.

Or you can open a topic with "USA is biggest terrorist, discuss" & stick to that thread. Interested people will go and discuss in that thread.

I was simply replying to your post it's irrelevant to point out these camps since the US is hardly a shining light. The targeting of Muslims (of any background) at airports is nothing but a propaganda tool in their war of terror. Almost all of the so called plots including the Times Square plot were planned by the American security forces. Yet we have AmericanPaks getting irritated when the truth is pointed out.

AmPaks seems to kiss the stars and stripes and are devoid of any criticism of their beloved land of the free. Why is this subservient mentality prevalent? Are you guys scared of getting arrested or just like to bury your head in the sand because The Simpsons is such a good show?

 

[ElRaja]

Well, average person is not going to recognize grad success story like Shahid Khan or Michael Chowdry. I know about them because I read WSJ each day but less than 1% of population reads WSJ.

Average person is going to recognize from mainly two sources, sports or entertainment. Those two have very wide audience. Chances of some one doing well in those field will increase 10 fold if population of AmPak is same as BritPak on percentage basis. It's very simple concept.

fair enough, i get your point but surely you must concede if the community on a whole is doing well there should be representation in most disciplines.

brit paks are about 1.5% of the pop, and given the ampak pop is still around a million people id expect at least one person that gives some representation of the community on the widest public scale, entertainment or sport.

prince nas represented a community of about 30,000 yemeni brits, rita ora represents a community of about 100,000 kosovar/albanian brits, mo farah represents 80,000 somalis, etc. i could give examples for many other small communities, you dont need absolute numbers, just a society willing to accept fringe ethnic groups into popular culture.

one point i will raise, the londoncentricsm of the UK in terms of popular culture means ethnicity doesnt really matter at all in achievement in those fields since London is so diverse, it pbly reflects a more cosmopolitan image of britiain, than britain may in reality be.

 

[GentleMan]

AmPaks are just compensating by being extra good to make up for the bad name *some* BritPaks have brought to the community..if there are more AmPaks..soom the image will be better. One thing AmPaks do need to do is to form lobbies..apart from being good ambassadors for Pakistan..may be they are already doing it, i am not sure.

 

[KingKhanWC]

i have already raised points that no one answered.. UK has very high population density..same as vietnam..high density leads to more interaction among people..more assimilation..despite that i read that BritPaks havent assimilated well.

Same as veitnam? ) You have been reading the BNP manifesto kid. Brit Paks have been representing the country in high positions from MPS, to Lords. From top sport stars to music artists. 10's of thousands are married to white people. You can't assimilate more than this.

in USA, there is very very low population density.. individual private life is preferred..people want their own space..

there was rampant racism against Pakistanis in UK..the derogatory term originated there..so it is obvious why to safeguard their interests BritPaks had to gather together and join politics. (which is a great thing btw) but it is dumb to compare it with USAPaks..who didnt have to face all that..whatever bad they had to face was after 9/11 and that is a global thing btw..still Pakistani population has doubled after that..meaning educated Pakistanis still prefer USA.

If you knew anything about the UK you will know there is elements of racism against ALL races by certain groups, not specifically against Pakistanis. An Indian student was shot dead not long ago. US is a nation of immigrants, built on the cleanings of native Inidans and built by slaves but if Pakistani's were to move in numbers to some areas in the US they would be facing a lot of racism like the blacks continue do.

You just seem to be making things up in your head again.

 

[mani1]

Pakistani-American Terrorist Claims That Pakistan Planned The 2008 Mumbai Attacks

AmPaks are just compensating by being extra good to make up for the bad name *some* BritPaks have brought to the community..if there are more AmPaks..soom the image will be better. One thing AmPaks do need to do is to form lobbies..apart from being good ambassadors for Pakistan..may be they are already doing it, i am not sure.

A confessed Pakistani-American terrorist took the stand in a Chicago courtroom on Monday and described a close alliance between Pakistan's intelligence service and the Lashkar-i-Taiba terrorist group, alleging that Pakistani officers recruited him and played a central role in planning the 2008 Mumbai attacks.

Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com...-headley-mumbai-attacks-lashkar#ixzz2OfPOLHBl

 

[GentleMan]

Population density of UK.. 673, vietnam 694..get your facts right king khan (name stolen from ShahRukh).

i always support Pakistan in my conversations with americans here..because i know as a fellow brown i must stand up for each other and present the true picture..like one day an american was asking me, have you heard of this pakistani university SZABIST...i hadnt even heard of it, but i told him yes it is a top university..and it is very difficult to get into it..and i told him that pakistanis were friends of america..it is only war on terror that has made those guys dislike you..he accepted saying yes, we try to police the world..sometimes it gets dirty. i hope pakistanis also talk good about my country with the westerners.

 

[Buffet]

given the ampak pop is still around a million people id expect at least one person that gives some representation of the community on the widest public scale, entertainment or sport.

1 Million scattered population in country of this size in population and geography doesn't carry that much weight. Those 1M are competing with 350M to come in limelight in fields like sports and entertainment. Competition is also not fair because majority of population is first generation and they are not likely to try for entertainment or sports at national level. Their focus is on making good life and go for financial security. Results are there in form of Michael Chowdry and Shahid Khan.

Give it few decades. When there is sizable number of 2nd/3rd generation AmPak with same percentage as BritPak then you are likely to see visible representation on field like Sports/Entertainment. That's how I see it.

I don't think AmPaks are more successful if you compare apple to apple. If you take a subset of people in Ampaks, who have similar education as average BritPak, then they might not be doing so well financially. That subset will be very close to BritPaks. US is more selective in taking people so it's not surprising that most ethnic group taken as unit tends to do better when compared to other countries. It's not unique to Pakistanis. Situation will be same for Indians or any other group. Heck, even AmBrits do better than average Brit.

 

[endymion248]

Population density of UK.. 673, vietnam 694..get your facts right king khan (name stolen from ShahRukh).

i always support Pakistan in my conversations with americans here..because i know as a fellow brown i must stand up for each other and present the true picture..like one day an american was asking me, have you heard of this pakistani university SZABIST...i hadnt even heard of it, but i told him yes it is a top university..and it is very difficult to get into it..and i told him that pakistanis were friends of america..it is only war on terror that has made those guys dislike you..he accepted saying yes, we try to police the world..sometimes it gets dirty. i hope pakistanis also talk good about my country with the westerners.

Sorry, whenever they make fun of Bollywood I join in :/

I'll change if you want us to

 

[Pak-Legend]

AmPaks are just compensating by being extra good to make up for the bad name *some* BritPaks have brought to the community..if there are more AmPaks..soom the image will be better. One thing AmPaks do need to do is to form lobbies..apart from being good ambassadors for Pakistan..may be they are already doing it, i am not sure.

The fact of the matter is most American Pakistanis don't care nor realize what is happening in Britain, and the same applies for British Pakistanis and their views on America. The Pakistani American community is quite different from the British American community, therefore why would one community care about the reputation of the other? They both live in completely different societies.

And the stereotypes being perpetuated in North America are not necessarily due to the actions of a few British Pakistanis, they're largely due to the actions of extremists back home. When was the last time you ever heard of an American complaining about "a few" British Pakistanis?

 

[GentleMan]

people may say that it is only 1% of BritPaks bringing a bad name to the community..but one must ask why is that 1% coming only from BritPaks..why not from USAPaks.. so i dont buy this excuse of an apology that it is only 1%..yes 1%, so?? only when you accept that there is a problem can you work towards removing it...otherwise the problem only grows..sorry for being blunt.

 

[Pak-Legend]

people may say that it is only 1% of BritPaks bringing a bad name to the community..but one must ask why is that 1% coming only from BritPaks..why not from USAPaks.. so i dont buy this excuse of an apology that it is only 1%..yes 1%, so?? only when you accept that there is a problem can you work towards removing it...otherwise the problem only grows..sorry for being blunt.

Lol, No British Pakistani in this thread has denied that there is a problem (with regards to the 1% or whatever figure it is that is "bringing a bad name to the community"). There's definately work being done to improve the situation (again I'm not British, so I can't speak from personal experience, however I can speak on behalf of a British Pakistani I've seen who was previously involved in gang activity but is now a youth/social worker and is helping to improve the lives of others in the community).

We can't assume that there aren't any American Pakistanis bringing a bad name to the community either. It may not necessarily be drugs or pedophile gangs, it could involve a wide range of illegal activities, and even then, the decisions of the individual aren't based upon their race or ethnicity, but rather their socio-economic status and upbringing. There just isn't any data on crime rates. The primary reason why there is this supposedly "1%" figure is because those people were already prone to being involved in those activities due to a lower socio-economic status and poor upbringing, not due to the country they pledge their allegiance to.

 

[GentleMan]

i agree it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity..it is socio-economic conditions and to a smaller extent upbringing.. and this what we are comparing aren't we?

 

[Pak-Legend]

Being happy for the success of your community is a concept I never understood but if it can create a heritage, why not?

Except, when you turn your back on 1% of the community that is struggling and supposedly "tarnishing your reputation" (which is already tarnished anyways by the extremists chilling back home), and instead of helping them to succeed; you try to dissociate yourself from them and try to claim you are much more successful, powerful and empowered as a result of it - is this how we're supposed to create a heritage?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

people may say that it is only 1% of BritPaks bringing a bad name to the community..but one must ask why is that 1% coming only from BritPaks..why not from USAPaks.. so i dont buy this excuse of an apology that it is only 1%..yes 1%, so?? only when you accept that there is a problem can you work towards removing it...otherwise the problem only grows..sorry for being blunt.

As I have already said, Pakistani Brits are established in the UK a lot longer than the AmPaks and at a lower level of society in a lot of cases, so like all other communities there are going to be some bad headlines from time to time.

Personally I feel until that until the US Pakistanis are actively recognised as a successful group in America as the Jews are for example, they shouldn't really compare themselves to long established communities like the British Pakistanis. At the moment most American people probably don't even realise they exist.

 

[saadibaba]

lol. You have only provided yet more evidence of your subservient mentality. People who are against American Imperial state terrorism are not extremists but people who oppose the worlds biggest form of terrorism. On the other hand you have wannabe house negro's who even with accents they can't get rid off not only don't understand the reality of the world but become defenders just because they want to be something they never will be. You are not an American but act more Texan than George W Bush. Very funny to read.


Yes there are corrupt elements but I was referring to the ordinary solider risking his life for the Islamic Republic, something which would never consider as you prefer to live in some ranch in Texas thinking you're alwhite, in the land of the free and brave. lol

The 'house negro' comment coming from you is very apt actually. We see that a lot in the black community who mostly live in urban ghetto's or rural towns and are from impoverished (financially and educationally) backgrounds. Whenever they see a fellow black man or woman trying to educate themseleves, trying to adopt a cleaner more mainstream lifestyle (wearing mainstream clothes and not following ghetto fashions), speaking more elegantly and not following the N this and F that culture, trying to get out of the miseareble circumstances of their community, trying to make themselves better and more productive, trying to learn to take responsibility for themselves and be someone, not following hate the 'white man' for everything mindset, not blaming 'white america' for all their problems, .....very often those few people are labelled as 'house negros' or 'wannabe whites'.

Its a really sad and self destructive cycle that these communities get themselves into. They frown on their fellow black peoples success, they look down on their open minded attitude. Its almost as they want to pull them back to their level. This attitude is mainly born out of frustration and anger at one's own life and achievements. They know that they have failed and want to blame the entire system around them. They choose not to look into the mirror and accept responsibility for their own actions.

Sadly, this self destructive cycle continues and their community contines to get more isolated, more marginalized, leading to less education, poverty and ultimately a life of crime.

Its a very negative attitude. I hope your community in UK is not following that same pattern. Your use of those words for me makes me wonder if something similar is also going on over there. And US foreign policy as usual is being used a shield to hide the real frustrations behind your anger at people like me.

 

[saadibaba]

BTW, some great points made by Buffet and GM above.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The 'house negro' comment coming from you is very apt actually. We see that a lot in the black community who mostly live in urban ghetto's or rural towns and are from impoverished (financially and educationally) backgrounds. Whenever they see a fellow black man or woman trying to educate themseleves, trying to adopt a cleaner more mainstream lifestyle (wearing mainstream clothes and not following ghetto fashions), speaking more elegantly and not following the N this and F that culture, trying to get out of the miseareble circumstances of their community, trying to make themselves better and more productive, trying to learn to take responsibility for themselves and be someone, not following hate the 'white man' for everything mindset, not blaming 'white america' for all their problems, .....very often those few people are labelled as 'house negros' or 'wannabe whites'.

Its a really sad and self destructive cycle that these communities get themselves into. They frown on their fellow black peoples success, they look down on their open minded attitude. Its almost as they want to pull them back to their level. This attitude is mainly born out of frustration and anger at one's own life and achievements. They know that they have failed and want to blame the entire system around them. They choose not to look into the mirror and accept responsibility for their own actions.

Sadly, this self destructive cycle continues and their community contines to get more isolated, more marginalized, leading to less education, poverty and ultimately a life of crime.

Its a very negative attitude. I hope your community in UK is not following that same pattern. Your use of those words for me makes me wonder if something similar is also going on over there. And US foreign policy as usual is being used a shield to hide the real frustrations behind your anger at people like me.

On this I would agree with you 100%. Being stuck in the gutter is nothing to be proud of, and it's the Barack Obama's of the world that the black communities should aspire to.

 

[shan]

As always KKWC embarrassing himself and British-Pakistanis. Now i will point out hardships faced by average American Pakistanis and why many familes have left it after 9/11.

Contrary to popular belief Pakistanis in USA are over 1 million at least, but they only talk about 400.000 nationalized when it comes to GDP per capita and succes. They left out all those illegals souls.

Unlike in EU where medical care is free for even illegals let alone citizens, in USA even people with insurance have to pay something and thats why unless its absolutly neccesary they wont visit the doctor.

In UK anyone can calim benefits and they also give £250-300 per month for 1 child if im not wrong. Also goverment give cheap or free houses for those who cant afford. While Americans Pakistanis get thengha if they dont work.

And lets not even talk about discrimination which is way more in USA if you are AmPak. So Brit-Pak should stop giving excuses if they are behind in something. And also please stop marrying cousins it make me sick just thinking about it. #yolo

 

[endymion248]

Saadibaba, are you included into the average 80k$ per capita?

 

[Buffet]

I was simply replying to your post it's irrelevant to point out these camps since the US is hardly a shining light. The targeting of Muslims (of any background) at airports is nothing but a propaganda tool in their war of terror. Almost all of the so called plots including the Times Square plot were planned by the American security forces. Yet we have AmericanPaks getting irritated when the truth is pointed out.

AmPaks seems to kiss the stars and stripes and are devoid of any criticism of their beloved land of the free. Why is this subservient mentality prevalent? Are you guys scared of getting arrested or just like to bury your head in the sand because The Simpsons is such a good show?

I am not AmPak but I do interact with several of them. I see all of them trying to make their life better and work hard. Many of them criticize US foreign policies and some support it similar to any other group.

So explanation for relatively large % of BritPak in Jail is that they are not scared of being arrested? That creates huge positive impression for community and helps everyone, isn't it? It's better to not engage in activities which will put you in jail, be it UK or US. Now this rant about Simpson and subservient etc.... let's not go there.

 

[saadibaba]

Saadibaba, are you included into the average 80k$ per capita?

Are you a tax collector

Just kidding....Mashallah I make much more than $80K.

 

[saadibaba]

On this I would agree with you 100%. Being stuck in the gutter is nothing to be proud of, and it's the Barack Obama's of the world that the black communities should aspire to.

Thanks Cpt. sahab. We are begining to see more eye to eye with eachother than ever. Good development.

 

[endymion248]

Are you a tax collector

Just kidding....Mashallah I make much more than $80K.

No, I mean is your revenue counted in the stats despite you not being an American citizen? Ie do green card holders and illegal immigrants actually count in those censi?

 

[saadibaba]

No, I mean is your revenue counted in the stats despite you not being an American citizen? Ie do green card holders and illegal immigrants actually count in those censi?

I am not sure tbh. I am a permanent resident. I pay taxes. They (US govt.) can tell from the information they have on me that I migrated from Pakistan. I might have to dig deep in that survey result to find out for sure but I presume that I am included in that stat.

 

[endymion248]

It's a pretty important point since I'm almost certain that non-citizens don't earn as much and, nationality being easier to get in UK, more low revenues would be included in UK census.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The 'house negro' comment coming from you is very apt actually. We see that a lot in the black community who mostly live in urban ghetto's or rural towns and are from impoverished (financially and educationally) backgrounds. Whenever they see a fellow black man or woman trying to educate themseleves, trying to adopt a cleaner more mainstream lifestyle (wearing mainstream clothes and not following ghetto fashions), speaking more elegantly and not following the N this and F that culture, trying to get out of the miseareble circumstances of their community, trying to make themselves better and more productive, trying to learn to take responsibility for themselves and be someone, not following hate the 'white man' for everything mindset, not blaming 'white america' for all their problems, .....very often those few people are labelled as 'house negros' or 'wannabe whites'.

Its a really sad and self destructive cycle that these communities get themselves into. They frown on their fellow black peoples success, they look down on their open minded attitude. Its almost as they want to pull them back to their level. This attitude is mainly born out of frustration and anger at one's own life and achievements. They know that they have failed and want to blame the entire system around them. They choose not to look into the mirror and accept responsibility for their own actions.

Sadly, this self destructive cycle continues and their community contines to get more isolated, more marginalized, leading to less education, poverty and ultimately a life of crime.

Its a very negative attitude. I hope your community in UK is not following that same pattern. Your use of those words for me makes me wonder if something similar is also going on over there. And US foreign policy as usual is being used a shield to hide the real frustrations behind your anger at people like me.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick here. The house negro was the slave who wasn't the field negro. The house negro did everything to please his masters because he/she wanted to be like them even knowing deep down he/she could never be. The house negro become so subservient he/she hated on the field negro, one of their own. This is the same mentality of some immigrants, AM's and BritPaks , mainly the so called educated liberals.

 

[KingKhanWC]

As always KKWC embarrassing himself and British-Pakistanis. Now i will point out hardships faced by average American Pakistanis and why many familes have left it after 9/11.

Contrary to popular belief Pakistanis in USA are over 1 million at least, but they only talk about 400.000 nationalized when it comes to GDP per capita and succes. They left out all those illegals souls.

Unlike in EU where medical care is free for even illegals let alone citizens, in USA even people with insurance have to pay something and thats why unless its absolutly neccesary they wont visit the doctor.

In UK anyone can calim benefits and they also give £250-300 per month for 1 child if im not wrong. Also goverment give cheap or free houses for those who cant afford. While Americans Pakistanis get thengha if they dont work.

And lets not even talk about discrimination which is way more in USA if you are AmPak. So Brit-Pak should stop giving excuses if they are behind in something. And also please stop marrying cousins it make me sick just thinking about it. #yolo

lol. It;s you who is embarrassing yourself by constantly worrying about my views and failing to understand they are my views alone, I'm not a spokesman for the BritPak community.

Nobody gets 250-300 per month for one child, please do some research before making up these silly 'facts'.

I'm not sure what marrying cousins has to do with this subject but it's tradition popular in most communities from the sub-continent.

Please give us you views on Spanish Pakistani's because you are very ignorant of everything else. Thanks.

 

[saadibaba]

It's a pretty important point since I'm almost certain that non-citizens don't earn as much and, nationality being easier to get in UK, more low revenues would be included in UK census.

I don't think so. I earn a lot more than average and there are a lot of professionals like me who are on Green Cards or visa's earning a lot more than average. So actually, this might even make the stats higher if you just include people like me.

The survey which we are talking about showing AmPaks earning more than avegare is based on US census data. I was curious myself to find out if US census data counts illegals, non-citizens etc. and actually they do. So there you go.

As currently required by law, the U.S. Census Bureau attempts to count all persons in the U.S. living in residential structures, including prisons, dormitories and similar "group quarters" in the official decennial census. Persons counted in the census include citizens, legal immigrants, non-citizen long-term visitors and illegal (or undocumented) immigrants.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/censusandaliens.htm

 

[shan]

Then where did Pak embassy get figure of 700.000 in 2005?

 

[endymion248]

I don't think so. I earn a lot more than average and there are a lot of professionals like me who are on Green Cards or visa's earning a lot more than average. So actually, this might even make the stats higher if you just include people like me.

The survey which we are talking about showing AmPaks earning more than avegare is based on US census data. I was curious myself to find out if US census data counts illegals, non-citizens etc. and actually they do. So there you go.



http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/censusandaliens.htm

The point is moot then.

But still, your case is not a generality. How is it possible for 1 or 2 year residents to earn more on average than citizens who are in US for 5 or 10+ years?

 

[shan]

lol. It;s you who is embarrassing yourself by constantly worrying about my views and failing to understand they are my views alone, I'm not a spokesman for the BritPak community.

Nobody gets 250-300 per month for one child, please do some research before making up these silly 'facts'.

I'm not sure what marrying cousins has to do with this subject but it's tradition popular in most communities from the sub-continent.

Please give us you views on Spanish Pakistani's because you are very ignorant of everything else. Thanks.

I think they get child support, you cant deny that. And marrying cousins are ok as long as you guys take care of the disabled kid instead of UK tax payer. There are many horrible SC traditions, lets bring all of them to UK.

 

[Buffet]

It's a pretty important point since I'm almost certain that non-citizens don't earn as much and, nationality being easier to get in UK, more low revenues would be included in UK census.

Don't know about UK but in US census Bureau collects data from everyone, including illegal status population. People with work VISA are treated as resident for all tax purposes if they stay here for more than 183 days. GC is same as citizen except they can't vote or run for election.

Anyway, data is all inclusive and Bureau is not allowed to share any personal information with anyone, including US gov, IRS etc, under any condition. This is to ensure that everyone participates truthfully. Some illegals might still report wrong information but more or less system is pretty good in collecting data from everyone who is in US. Gov can't force Bureau to get data from back channel, there will be huge backlash. Anyone, including illegals/terrorists, get certain rights if they are on US soil. That's the main reason US keeps prison cells outside of US to avoid getting lawsuits for doing things which is not allowed on US soil. So illegals sharing data are not at risk.

"The Bureau cannot share responses, addresses or personal information with anyone including United States or foreign government and law enforcement agencies such as the IRS or the FBI or Interpol."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_Bureau

People who are here based on employment based work permit ( H1B) and permanent residency, earn higher than average citizen. It's natural because they have higher skill than average population. You will be right in saying that illegals earn less than citizens because they have less choice and get exploited. But data is all inclusive.

 

[saadibaba]

The point is moot then.

But still, your case is not a generality. How is it possible for 1 or 2 year residents to earn more on average than citizens who are in US for 5 or 10+ years?

Depends on the professions I guess. I think in general US was screening to allow only the most highly professional and cream of the crop people in their country (in every field), post 911 the criteria got even more stringent. But I agree, its a generalization. Lot of working class people get here after being sponsored by someone in their family. So they might be the other end of the spectrum. I can only point to the stats as a better picture of whats going on rather than my own personal observation.

 

[Buffet]

The point is moot then.

But still, your case is not a generality. How is it possible for 1 or 2 year residents to earn more on average than citizens who are in US for 5 or 10+ years?

If a person got residency via employment then there is very high chance that he/she earns more than an average citizen. To offer GC, companies have to prove that they are paying at least market rate. Often it is lot higher because their skills are in demand. That will make average higher.

If person got residency via marriage, family etc then you are bang on target. They are not likely to make more than an average citizen.

 

[saadibaba]

There was a lot of criticism directed towards AmPaks for not being involved in politics. Just got this in email. I'm on the mailing list of this group US Pak Foundation. Goes to show that efforts are being made to make our community more involved.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Depends on the professions I guess. I think in general US was screening to allow only the most highly professional and cream of the crop people in their country (in every field), post 911 the criteria got even more stringent. But I agree, its a generalization. Lot of working class people get here after being sponsored by someone in their family. So they might be the other end of the spectrum. I can only point to the stats as a better picture of whats going on rather than my own personal observation.

Which is why comparing BritPaks with AmPaks is like comparing apples and oranges if success is going to be measured on a financial basis. There is a very significant proportion of British Pakistanis doing very well here, but because the entry point is much lower, the figures get diluted by an underclass which is less the case in America.

Still, if US Pakistanis are flag bearers for the Pakistan community worldwide, I don't have a problem with that. Until they are actually recognised as that in their adopted country, I would reserve judgement though.

 

[GentleMan]

why cannot apples and oranges be compared..sick of this bankrupt statement. you can always compare apples and oranges..like which one has more vitamin c, which one has more fructose..which is more rotten..which is more expensive.. so comparing USAPaks with BritPaks is a valid comparison.

 

[MC]

Still, if US Pakistanis are flag bearers for the Pakistan community worldwide, I don't have a problem with that. Until they are actually recognised as that in their adopted country, I would reserve judgement though.

They are indeed recognised as a successful group in USA. What makes you think they aren't?

USA media and general public may not have any special love for Pakistan as a country or Islam as a religion but they certainly pay due respect and appreciation to the American Pakistani community for their contributions.

 

[endymion248]

If a person got residency via employment then there is very high chance that he/she earns more than an average citizen. To offer GC, companies have to prove that they are paying at least market rate. Often it is lot higher because their skills are in demand. That will make average higher.

If person got residency via marriage, family etc then you are bang on target. They are not likely to make more than an average citizen.

In an earlier posted figure, I read that 87% of AmIndians are foreign-born. As per you, there are two ways of entering in the country:

-Family/Marriage. Now, if 87% are foreign-born, it's highly unlikely that a significant amount had family/marriage (less than 10% marry in an extra-ethnic context according to those stats).

-Selection following your skills and education.

The stats for AmPaks were not given but, even if it's remotely similar, that would mean 50 to 90% of AmPaks are selected on their earning potential. As a matter fact, the 80 000$ a year suddenly look quite low to me, if this is true :/

Anoter question, does America give political asylum? As much as UK? Or do you have to be a high profile personality to have it, as opposed to almost any Ahmedi in UK?

Edit: Looked it up. America accepted 90k for 300 million population, Europe accepted 300k for 500 million population. (a year)

Edit2: Around 10 million illegal immigrants in US as opposed to around 30 million in Europe. Bear in mind that illegal immigrants have it a lot easier to get the nationality afterwards in Europe. So this is another crop of non-selected people that become citizens, which they don't in US (once your claim is refused, no illegal immigrant card, you can only be deported).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

why cannot apples and oranges be compared..sick of this bankrupt statement. you can always compare apples and oranges..like which one has more vitamin c, which one has more fructose..which is more rotten..which is more expensive.. so comparing USAPaks with BritPaks is a valid comparison.

In what sense? The only commonality between the two is Pakistani origin. Unless AmPaks are actually recognised as successful as American Pakistanis then what significance is it to us?

Are they hailed as an American success story in America? Are they held up as flag bearers for Pakistani immigrants over there?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

They are indeed recognised as a successful group in USA. What makes you think they aren't?

USA media and general public may not have any special love for Pakistan as a country or Islam as a religion but they certainly pay due respect and appreciation to the American Pakistani community for their contributions.

Where?

 

[GentleMan]

In what sense? The only commonality between the two is Pakistani origin. Unless AmPaks are actually recognised as successful as American Pakistanis then what significance is it to us?

Are they hailed as an American success story in America? Are they held up as flag bearers for Pakistani immigrants over there?

this is not a laboratory experiment of using two samples and growing them in controlled environment..so i dont know why you want exact carbon copies so that they can be compared.

the topic is simple. out of USAPaks and BritPaks who are more successful. choose A or B.

after that we can go into why A is better but has a heeadstart and why B has a disadvantage. we can go into that but first let us accept who is better.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

this is not a laboratory experiment of using two samples and growing them in controlled environment..so i dont know why you want exact carbon copies so that they can be compared.

the topic is simple. out of USAPaks and BritPaks who are more successful. choose A or B.

after that we can go into why A is better but has a heeadstart and why B has a disadvantage. we can go into that but first let us accept who is better.

Better as what? Americans? Pakistanis? British? Model immigrants? Once this is established we can drill down to establish a conclusion.

 

[MC]

The only thing that doesn't favour American Pakistanis is the numbers! For being a predominantly a middle class group, there's naturally this tradition to have small families, coupled with America's increasingly strict immigration that significantly reduces number of Pakistanis entering the country.

Shame that the US doesn't have a welfare system where people feel they have the licence to pop eights-nine kids even if they don't have employment or house.

 

[GentleMan]

Better as what? Americans? Pakistanis? British? Model immigrants? Once this is established we can drill down to establish a conclusion.

Better in earnings, better in being less represented in crime. better as ambassadors of Pakistan.

 

[MC]

Where?

In USA!

 

[MC]

Likes of Fox news are more than happy to launch 24hrs live broadcast to defame Islam and Pakistan, but ever wonder why they never target their own American Pakistani community unlike Daily Mail who could easily dedicate an entire newspaper highlighting all the ills of British Pak community?

 

[GentleMan]

if i was in UK..i would be very worried to have Captain as my neighbour..because although he won't harm me..and be polite even..but he will always maintain a cold distance and never smile or greet me. just like his display pic, which never smiles.. but if saadibaba was my neighbour, i can always count on him for a great BBQ party over the weekend, and loaning some money if I needed, and i am sure he would always help.

 

[endymion248]

From an old IMF survey.

The first striking feature of the U.S. migration data is that immigration flows of individuals with no more than a primary education are quite small, both in absolute terms and relative to other educational groupings (about 500,000 individuals out of a total of 7 million immigrants). Foreign-born individuals with little or no education, however, may be undercounted by the census if they are in the country illegally or do not speak English. The largest group of immigrants into the United States (about 3.7 million) consists of individuals with secondary education from other North American countries (understood here to include Central American and Caribbean countries), primarily Mexico. Perhaps surprisingly, the second largest group (almost 1.5 million individuals) consists of highly educated migrants from Asia and the Pacific. Total immigration from South America and, especially, Africa is quite small. It is noteworthy, however, that immigrants from Africa consist primarily of highly educated individuals (about 95,000 of the 128,000 African migrants).

Among the countries in Asia and the Pacific, the biggest source is the Philippines, with 730,000 migrants. Of these, the great majority have a tertiary education. The second largest stock of migrants is from China (400,000), which is split almost equally between the secondary and tertiary educational groups. Both India and Korea have seen more than 300,000 people migrate to the United States. It is striking that more than 75 percent of Indian immigrants have a tertiary education, compared with only 53 percent of Korean immigrants.

The biggest migratory flows from Africa to the United States are from Egypt, Ghana, and South Africa, with more than 60 percent of immigrants from those three countries having a tertiary education. Migration of Africans with only a primary education is almost nil. The picture is quite different for the migratory flows from the Western Hemisphere: Mexico is by far the largest sending country (2.7 million), with the large majority of its migrants (2.0 million) having a secondary education and fewer than 13 percent having a tertiary education. This pattern is also observed for the smaller countries of Central America, but not for the two Caribbean countries for which we have information, for which migrants with a tertiary education are a more substantial percentage of the total (42 percent for Jamaica and 46 percent for Trinidad and Tobago). Finally, migration from South America to the United States is relatively small in absolute numbers, with immigrants split almost equally between the secondary and the tertiary educational groups.

In each sending country, how do the numbers of emigrants compare with the size of the population with a given educational attainment? For most countries, people with a tertiary education have the highest migration rate, with the exceptions of the Central American countries, Ecuador, and Thailand (in Thailand, people with a secondary education and those with a tertiary one have approximately the same migration rates) (see chart). Thus, migrants to the United States tend to be better educated than the average person in their home (that is, the sending) country, and the proportion of very highly educated people who migrate is particularly high. Also, migration from Central America seems to follow a somewhat different pattern than migration from other developing countries, in that the highest migration rate is for persons with a secondary education, rather than those with a tertiary education.

The brain drain to the United States from many Central American and Caribbean countries is substantial: for persons with a tertiary education, immigration rates for virtually all these countries are above 10 percent, and some appear to be 50 percent or even higher. In South America, the country with by far the largest brain drain is Guyana, from which more than 70 percent of individuals with a tertiary education have moved to the United States; for the rest of the region, the immigration rates for this educational group are much lower. The Islamic Republic of Iran has had a substantial drain of highly educated individuals (more than 15 percent) and so has Taiwan Province of China (8–9 percent).

Also to be noted that they didn't include the high amount of brain drain from Europe, on one hand, and, on the other, the scolarshipped students from all over the world that can also be considered in this category.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Better in earnings, better in being less represented in crime. better as ambassadors of Pakistan.

Are they actually credited with being ambassadors of Pakistan?

 

[endymion248]

if i was in UK..i would be very worried to have Captain as my neighbour..because although he won't harm me..and be polite even..but he will always maintain a cold distance and never smile or greet me. just like his display pic, which never smiles.. but if saadibaba was my neighbour, i can always count on him for a great BBQ party over the weekend, and loaning some money if I needed, and i am sure he would always help.

Captain is from UK, Saadibaba is from US. Captain is thus, de facto, more polite and better neighbour than Saadibaba.

If we are going to assume that Saadibaba is a better neighbour than Captain, then the very foundations of UK-US stereotypes will be shaken.

 

[GentleMan]

i have seen many youtube videos about racist rant against pakistanis in a train in UK..have never come across an american version of it.. but just to be fair i would search on youtube now..

yes, i just searched and it confirmed my hunch..searching for americans abusing pakistanis did not yield any video, but british abusing pakistanis showed 4 on the first page. so can we say that if youtube videos are anything to go by, there is less public racism against Pakistanis in USA compared to UK? which by the way is nothing to gloat about..but it is related to the discussion about American Pakistanis not liked by Americans.

 

[MC]

if i was in UK..i would be very worried to have Captain as my neighbour..because although he won't harm me..and be polite even..but he will always maintain a cold distance and never smile or greet me. just like his display pic, which never smiles.. but if saadibaba was my neighbour, i can always count on him for a great BBQ party over the weekend, and loaning some money if I needed, and i am sure he would always help.

This is precisely the reason why American Pakistanis are not only all happily and freely living in American 'Bible belt' areas, rich Jewish or all white neighbourhoods etc but they also accepted (not just 'tolerated') as valuable community members because they are as many have described and as I've seen myself, are warm, friendly and pacified individuals.

 

[GentleMan]

Captain is from UK, Saadibaba is from US. Captain is thus, de facto, more polite and better neighbour than Saadibaba.

If we are going to assume that Saadibaba is a better neighbour than Captain, then the very foundations of UK-US stereotypes will be shaken.

and that is the point..USAPaks have become like typical Americans..but BritPaks have not become what Brits are known for..and that is gentlemanly behaviour.. i would be the first to say BritPaks are the better ones had I seen some evidence for that.

 

[MC]

Are they actually credited with being ambassadors of Pakistan?

You won't find an exact quote saying that but yes this very much the case not only with Pakistanis and but American Indian community as well. Both groups have established a remarkably positive reputation for themselves even if their native countries suffer all sorts of negative stereotype and reports in the media.

 

[saadibaba]

if i was in UK..i would be very worried to have Captain as my neighbour..because although he won't harm me..and be polite even..but he will always maintain a cold distance and never smile or greet me. just like his display pic, which never smiles.. but if saadibaba was my neighbour, i can always count on him for a great BBQ party over the weekend, and loaning some money if I needed, and i am sure he would always help.

Of course. You are always welcome

Captain is from UK, Saadibaba is from US. Captain is thus, de facto, more polite and better neighbour than Saadibaba.

If we are going to assume that Saadibaba is a better neighbour than Captain, then the very foundations of UK-US stereotypes will be shaken.

 

[GentleMan]

Are they actually credited with being ambassadors of Pakistan?

ambassador doesnt mean burning poppy or adding to the negative image.. ambassador means carrying oneself in a proper manner so as to remove the negative image due to others, living by example, helping their home country in every way possible and not making a big deal of it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Captain is from UK, Saadibaba is from US. Captain is thus, de facto, more polite and better neighbour than Saadibaba.

If we are going to assume that Saadibaba is a better neighbour than Captain, then the very foundations of UK-US stereotypes will be shaken.

Actually I think I'd get on very well with saadibaba if he was my neighbour. In the UK we could probably swap stories and jokes about hiding rocket launchers in our basements without a SWAT team crashing through our windows

 

[endymion248]

GentleMan, since you claimed to have come to US for higher education (MBA or MS iirc) and obviously fall in the brain drain category, did you have a tertiary when coming to US? And would many of your Indian friends who got a Masters/PhD fall in that category? (ie having a college education before coming)

(Just wondering if brain drain stats should actually be much higher than 80% since they don't account people coming straight after high school)

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

i have seen many youtube videos about racist rant against pakistanis in a train in UK..have never come across an american version of it.. but just to be fair i would search on youtube now..

yes, i just searched and it confirmed my hunch..searching for americans abusing pakistanis did not yield any video, but british abusing pakistanis showed 4 on the first page. so can we say that if youtube videos are anything to go by, there is less public racism against Pakistanis in USA compared to UK? which by the way is nothing to gloat about..but it is related to the discussion about American Pakistanis not liked by Americans.

Why don't you switch your search to Americans ranting about Mexicans? You might have more success.

 

[mani1]

US home-grown terrorists 'a global threat', warns congresswoman

ambassador doesnt mean burning poppy or adding to the negative image.. ambassador means carrying oneself in a proper manner so as to remove the negative image due to others, living by example, helping their home country in every way possible and not making a big deal of it.

America's home-grown terrorists are now a 'global threat' and the US should look to Europe to learn how to deal with the problem, a prominent US congresswoman has warned Barack Obama.

In a letter to the president, Sue Myrick, a member of the House of Representatives select committee on intelligence, says that America is for the first time exporting Islamist terrorism.
She accuses the US of complacency in dealing with the issue and says the country in "far behind" Europe in having measures in place to deal with the growing problem of the radicalisation of young men and their willingness to carry out terror attacks.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ists-a-global-threat-warns-congresswoman.html

 

[endymion248]

In regards of post #697, accusation of racism or not being conclusive towards integration for UK seem to miss the main point that we are comparing two countries with completely different migratory influx.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

ambassador doesnt mean burning poppy or adding to the negative image.. ambassador means carrying oneself in a proper manner so as to remove the negative image due to others, living by example, helping their home country in every way possible and not making a big deal of it.

The poppy burners aren't necessarily Pakistani though. For all you know they may be Bengali.

 

[MC]

When they say Europe, they actually mean disgustingly nationalist mainland Europe, certainly not UK.

 

[GentleMan]

Why don't you switch your search to Americans ranting about Mexicans? You might have more success.

this is not to prove that americans are any less racist..this is to show if there is public racism against pakistanis in both of these countries. and i know because sometimes i pose as a pakistani with random strangers..and that too in the bible belt.

 

[mani1]

When they say Europe, they actually mean disgustingly nationalist mainland Europe, certainly not UK.

It's a problem in London and to much lesser extent Birmingham and Luton hardly the whole UK.

 

[GentleMan]

The poppy burners aren't necessarily Pakistani though. For all you know they may be Bengali.

i didnt mention any ethnicity in that post...just clearing what being an ambassador means to me.

 

[Pak-Legend]

i have seen many youtube videos about racist rant against pakistanis in a train in UK..have never come across an american version of it.. but just to be fair i would search on youtube now..

yes, i just searched and it confirmed my hunch..searching for americans abusing pakistanis did not yield any video, but british abusing pakistanis showed 4 on the first page. so can we say that if youtube videos are anything to go by, there is less public racism against Pakistanis in USA compared to UK? which by the way is nothing to gloat about..but it is related to the discussion about American Pakistanis not liked by Americans.

No American is dumb enough to be outwardly racist to anyone in public (train station etc.) It's very easy for videos to go viral now, and since America is very multicultural, people wouldn't tolerate any kinds of outward racism. It's not exclusive to only Pakistanis, this applies to all minority groups. The only places people might get away with public acts of racism are probably school playgrounds, and workplaces where the person being victimized isn't there. Usually, people will stand up for others regardless of their ethnicity. As for racism on the internet, it's rampant.

 

[endymion248]

When they say Europe, they actually mean disgustingly nationalist mainland Europe, certainly not UK.

You're talking about my numbers or Mani's? In the first case, no, it includes UK.

 

[MC]

You're talking about my numbers or Mani's? In the first case, no, it includes UK.

Mani's post.

 

[endymion248]

Now, if you people excuse me, I'll go to sleep thinking Why does everyday involve a fight with an American?.

And if Saadibaba recognizes this quote, I'm definitely not believing that he is an AmPak.

 

[Pak-Legend]

this is not to prove that americans are any less racist..this is to show if there is public racism against pakistanis in both of these countries. and i know because sometimes i pose as a pakistani with random strangers..and that too in the bible belt.

Well here's a newsflash.

For the racist White British man, a "Pak*" isn't just someone from Pakistan. This is a derogatory term that applies to anyone of South Asian descent. So, you can't claim it's only British Pakistanis being discriminated against (when the person who intended to use the word could very well, and most likely, be using it to describe and harass every South Asian person they encounter).

Trying to compare "incidents of racism" is also useless unless you have valid statistics of the percentage of racist encounters reported by Pakistanis from both countries.