British Pakistanis, less successful compared to North American Pakistanis?

[GentleMan]

Well here's a newsflash.

For the racist White British man, a "Pak*" isn't just someone from Pakistan. This is a derogatory term that applies to anyone of South Asian descent. So, you can't claim it's only British Pakistanis being discriminated against (when the person who intended to use the word could very well, and most likely, be using it to describe and harass every South Asian person they encounter).

Trying to compare "incidents of racism" is also useless unless you have valid statistics of racist encounters reported by Pakistanis from both countries.

i know..but a Pakistani is definitely included as their object of hatred..if racism is not exclusively towards pakistanis, that doesnt take way anything from my point. a lot of posts in this thread talked about how USAPaks face lots of racism and discrimination compared to those in UK..maybe silent racism, because i cannot find any data, but youtub videos present clear evidence of public racism happening more in US.. and dont say that just because a racist in UK used the P word (which includes all south asians), he would be any less racist to a real Pakistani.

 

[Pak-Legend]

America's home-grown terrorists are now a 'global threat' and the US should look to Europe to learn how to deal with the problem, a prominent US congresswoman has warned Barack Obama.

In a letter to the president, Sue Myrick, a member of the House of Representatives select committee on intelligence, says that America is for the first time exporting Islamist terrorism.
She accuses the US of complacency in dealing with the issue and says the country in "far behind" Europe in having measures in place to deal with the growing problem of the radicalisation of young men and their willingness to carry out terror attacks.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ists-a-global-threat-warns-congresswoman.html

The article doesn't really prove anything against the majority of well meaning and mannered American Pakistanis. Anyways, there's no point in trying to compare newspaper articles lol, the incident rates of British Pakistanis trying to export terrorism are still higher than American Pakistanis. For American Pakistanis, it's usually just the odd person out who's trying to "pose as a threat". I remember, that even an American Bengali was in the news for a similar incident. Surprisingly, for British Pakistanis, the export of terrorism seems to be a lot more organized and it isn't usually just one person trying to "pose a threat". That hints to the possibility that it not only less regulated over there, but more tolerated and acceptable among some members of the British Pakistani society.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

i didnt mention any ethnicity in that post...just clearing what being an ambassador means to me.

In which case you should realise that in reality most people are good ambassadors, and take less note of sensationalist tabloid media.

 

[mani1]

i know..but a Pakistani is definitely included as their object of hatred..if racism is not exclusively towards pakistanis, that doesnt take way anything from my point. a lot of posts in this thread talked about how USAPaks face lots of racism and discrimination compared to those in UK..maybe silent racism, because i cannot find any data, but youtub videos present clear evidence of public racism happening more in US.. and dont say that just because a racist in UK used the P word (which includes all south asians), he would be any less racist to a real Pakistani.

They are racist on the Internet or when they are drunk or in gangs such as the EDL.
The train incident they were racist to a Sikh.

In person in Bradford at least they don't have the stones to be racist face to face the EDL tried it when they got away from the police and got battered videos were up on youtube showing EDL scum with blood all over their faces by a giant Mirpuri lad battering them.
In fact even the police battered them.
On there website they admitted they got battered and vowed never to come there again.

Hence why all the Internet youtube racism.

 

[saadibaba]

Now, if you people excuse me, I'll go to sleep thinking Why does everyday involve a fight with an American?.

And if Saadibaba recognizes this quote, I'm definitely not believing that he is an AmPak.

Lady Dowager is my fav character in that show.

 

[GentleMan]

this thread wouldnt have run into 10 pages if everyone accepted that USAPaks are more successful than BritPaks. even now you have the chance..accept it and go and do something worthwhile..like watching your favourite reruns on BBC after ordering some fish and chips.

 

[mani1]

The article doesn't really prove anything against the majority of well meaning and mannered American Pakistanis. Anyways, there's no point in trying to compare newspaper articles lol, the incident rates of British Pakistanis trying to export terrorism are still higher than American Pakistanis. For American Pakistanis, it's usually just the odd person out who's trying to "pose as a threat". I remember, that even an American Bengali was in the news for a similar incident. Surprisingly, for British Pakistanis, the export of terrorism seems to be a lot more organized and it isn't usually just one person trying to "pose a threat". That hints to the possibility that it not only less regulated over there, but more tolerated and acceptable among some members of the British Pakistani society.

No idea I don't live in London.

George Headley, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed etc etc

Here's another example.

Two Pakistani-born brothers arrested in Florida on terror charges for alleged bomb plot

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-on-terror-charges-for-alleged-bomb-plot.html

 

[GentleMan]

In which case you should realise that in reality most people are good ambassadors, and take less note of sensationalist tabloid media.

oh i know most people are good and nice people who just want to get on with their lives..the bad are always a minority..but the point is that when you compare the bad apples and the bad oranges..BritPaks are on the wrong side.. why there hasnt been negative news about AmPaks.. there must be some explanation..if you have an answer for that then i am all ears.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The article doesn't really prove anything against the majority of well meaning and mannered American Pakistanis. Anyways, there's no point in trying to compare newspaper articles lol, the incident rates of British Pakistanis trying to export terrorism are still higher than American Pakistanis. For American Pakistanis, it's usually just the odd person out who's trying to "pose as a threat". I remember, that even an American Bengali was in the news for a similar incident. Surprisingly, for British Pakistanis, the export of terrorism seems to be a lot more organized and it isn't usually just one person trying to "pose a threat". That hints to the possibility that it not only less regulated over there, but more tolerated and acceptable among some members of the British Pakistani society.

Let me ask you a question. In a country like Britain where people live in close proximity in tightly condensed areas, how hard do you think it would be to commit acts of terrorism if the poppy burning "Pakistanis" were of a mind to do it?

 

[mani1]

The article doesn't really prove anything against the majority of well meaning and mannered American Pakistanis. Anyways, there's no point in trying to compare newspaper articles lol, the incident rates of British Pakistanis trying to export terrorism are still higher than American Pakistanis. For American Pakistanis, it's usually just the odd person out who's trying to "pose as a threat". I remember, that even an American Bengali was in the news for a similar incident. Surprisingly, for British Pakistanis, the export of terrorism seems to be a lot more organized and it isn't usually just one person trying to "pose a threat". That hints to the possibility that it not only less regulated over there, but more tolerated and acceptable among some members of the British Pakistani society.

Also regarding Bengali's despite all there problems in the UK I haven't heard much regarding them and terrorism.

 

[Pak-Legend]

i know..but a Pakistani is definitely included as their object of hatred..if racism is not exclusively towards pakistanis, that doesnt take way anything from my point. a lot of posts in this thread talked about how USAPaks face lots of racism and discrimination compared to those in UK..maybe silent racism, because i cannot find any data, but youtub videos present clear evidence of public racism happening more in US.. and dont say that just because a racist in UK used the P word (which includes all south asians), he would be any less racist to a real Pakistani.

To a (racist) White British person, it doesn't matter what your background is, if you have some "brown" skin tone on you, you're automatically referred to as a "Pak*". The problem is that you can't claim that the person intended to be only offensive to Pakistanis, since there is no way to know that. The word "Pak*" is analogous to the word "N*gger". If you're of brown skin tone, the word will be used against you. To the (racist) White British person, a Pakistani is no different than an Indian or a Bengali. Once you realize that, you'll understand the meaning and usage of the "P Word".

And do you know the word that is used usually by racists when the actual object of hatred are exclusively Pakistanis? It's "Arab".

Just because you cannot find it on YouTube, doesn't mean somewhere out there did not experience any encounters of racism. If you grew up in North America in a neighborhood as a visible minority, there is a high chance of experiencing racism. I know this because I've gone through the experience. Notice that I said there's a chance, this doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen to you.

Likewise, don't try to claim that just because someone is using the "P word", they are being less racist to people of other ethnic descent, and more racist towards Pakistanis. I'd understand if they used the word "arab" and the "sand n*gger" simultaneously ---- but the "P word" has a totally different meaning. Ask any British Bengali or British Indian and they'll be able to tell you this.

Since you want to embark on YouTube journeys, here's a video by a British Bengali on his experience with the word "Pak*":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpfcVj8BHw4

Again, I'm not trying to claim that all people are racist, we're only referring to the extremely small minority of racist people in both countries. Obviously, the situation isn't as bad as it was with the blacks during the pre-civil rights generation, however there are still elements of racism being experienced by people out there, and we can't ignore it, regardless of what country each person belongs to.

 

[saadibaba]

The article doesn't really prove anything against the majority of well meaning and mannered American Pakistanis. Anyways, there's no point in trying to compare newspaper articles lol, the incident rates of British Pakistanis trying to export terrorism are still higher than American Pakistanis. For American Pakistanis, it's usually just the odd person out who's trying to "pose as a threat". I remember, that even an American Bengali was in the news for a similar incident. Surprisingly, for British Pakistanis, the export of terrorism seems to be a lot more organized and it isn't usually just one person trying to "pose a threat". That hints to the possibility that it not only less regulated over there, but more tolerated and acceptable among some members of the British Pakistani society.

Agree. Good observation.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

this thread wouldnt have run into 10 pages if everyone accepted that USAPaks are more successful than BritPaks. even now you have the chance..accept it and go and do something worthwhile..like watching your favourite reruns on BBC after ordering some fish and chips.

I am happy to accept the success of AmPaks once the USA accepts them. Is it to much to ask? Since most Americans think Pakistan is in Arabia we have a long way to go I think.

 

[saadibaba]

I am happy to accept the success of AmPaks once the USA accepts them. Is it to much to ask? Since most Americans think Pakistan is in Arabia we have a long way to go I think.

US has accepted us, what makes you think otherwise ?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

US has accepted us, what makes you think otherwise ?

Accepted as what? Ambassadors for Pakistan?

 

[Sjaloha]

Wow, over 700 + posts on this issue. This is amazing.

 

[Sjaloha]

It seems like it has become a battle among few members now who are vigorously defending their positions.

 

[Pak-Legend]

They are racist on the Internet or when they are drunk or in gangs such as the EDL.
The train incident they were racist to a Sikh.

In person in Bradford at least they don't have the stones to be racist face to face the EDL tried it when they got away from the police and got battered videos were up on youtube showing EDL scum with blood all over their faces by a giant Mirpuri lad battering them.
In fact even the police battered them.
On there website they admitted they got battered and vowed never to come there again.

Hence why all the Internet youtube racism.

Since you live in Britain, and can comment on my hypothesis - Would it be safe to assume that the "P-word" is actually used more often towards Non-Pakistanis than Pakistanis themselves? Look at the population of British Indians, British Bengalis, British Sri Lankans, and all other South Asian descents. Combined, they vastly outnumber the population of British Pakistanis.

To the racist white man however, everyone is basically the same. Wouldn't there be higher chances of racism being targeted toward Non-pakistanis based upon a pure numbers perspective alone?

 

[Pak-Legend]

I am happy to accept the success of AmPaks once the USA accepts them. Is it to much to ask? Since most Americans think Pakistan is in Arabia we have a long way to go I think.

This is exactly the issue I want to tackle.

Anyone can come to their own conclusion of American Pakistanis (on average) being a lot more educated, earning higher incomes, living in lower rates of poverty etc. when compared to Pakistanis abroad. Heck, American Pakistanis might also be far more open to integration and assimilation (this has been discussed in this thread several times) compared to Pakistanis abroad. Nobody is trying to deny that American Pakistanis can be open minded and liberal in their viewpoints.

However, the problem is despite all of these efforts, is America accepting Pakistanis as a part of their own? How come there are still elements of racism whenever you go to an American news forum? How come there are still stereotypes of being from Arabia? How come Pakistanis still experience racism? This isn't only exclusive to the USA, but to the whole of North America. If American Pakistanis want to achieve true success, they need to mobilize themselves and empower themselves through political and cultural movements, like the British Pakistanis have.

Time will only tell whether or not the situation deteriorates or improves for American Pakistanis (again, don't take my words out of context, I'm not trying to sound like there is a war or going on - I'm just referring to the political and cultural aspects), as well as for British Pakistanis (who probably need to improve on the economic front a lot more).

 

[mani1]

How affluent are the Pakistani-Americans?

How affluent are the Pakistani-Americans?
Michael Kugelman | 24th May, 2012 199



– Illustration by Eefa Khalid/Dawn.com

Last week, I read Dr Murtaza Haider’s post on the poverty of Pakistani-Canadians with great interest.

As I was barraged by one startling statistic after the other – 44 per cent below the poverty line, nearly 50 per cent who don’t own homes, almost a quarter never having been in the workforce – I couldn’t help but think how drastically different this story was from that of Pakistani-Americans, who are generally regarded as a well-off diaspora.

Indeed, I know of no low-income area or slum in the United States populated predominantly by people of Pakistani origin, and I have never heard of a Pakistani-American homeless person. When one thinks of this community, the words most often coming to mind are prosperous and philanthropic.

Evidence gives credence to these perceptions. According to a 2011 report by the Asian American Center for Advancing Justice (AACAJ), which draws on data from the 2010 US Census and other US government sources, the median household income of Pakistani-American families is nearly $63,000. This is considerably higher than the figure for families in America on the whole ($51,369). Additionally, as I have pointed out previously, the most common jobs of Pakistani-Americans include doctors, accountants, and financial analysts, and 55 per cent hold at least a bachelor’s degree (this latter figure is only 28 per cent across the US population on the whole).

Broadly speaking, Pakistani-Americans appear to be economically secure and their positive experiences likely compel them to invite friends and family back in Pakistan to join them in America. Consider that Pakistani-Americans are the second-fastest-growing Asian-American ethnic group – their numbers more than doubled from 2000 to 2010, soaring from 204,309 to 409,163.

Yet, this isn’t the full story.

Dig a bit deeper into the AACAJ report, and you will come across some troubling data. Fifteen per cent of Pakistani-Americans fall below the poverty line – which happens to be the rate for the American population on the whole. Similarly, unemployment rates for the diaspora – 8 per cent (for those aged 16 and older) – reflect the rate for the total US population. On several measures, Pakistani-Americans are considerably worse off than the general population. Only 55 per cent own homes, compared to the nationwide figure of 66 per cent. Their per capita income is about $24,700, compared to $27,100 for the total population. And 23 per cent of Pakistani-Americans have no health insurance – which ties them with Bangladeshi-Americans for the highest percentage of any Asian-American ethnic group. This is significantly higher than the 15 per cent national figure (though Gallup polls suggest this figure has risen to 17 per cent in the last few months).

What should we make of this? On the one hand, many members of any immigrant group will face challenges as they adjust to their new home country. While quite a few Pakistani-Americans were born in the United States, the majority – about 65 per cent – were not. Therefore, for most of the community, the adjustment period is very much in the present.

Additionally, one can’t forget about all those blue-collar Pakistani-American workers, and particularly the taxicab drivers. According to US Census figures, “drivers and other transportation workers” constitute the third most common profession of Pakistani-Americans. In the words of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance, a union that represents cab drivers in New York City (where Pakistanis are heavily represented), employees have not received raises since 2004, “and they now earn below both the NY state minimum wage for a 12-hour shift and a NYC Living Wage (by 40 per cent).”

Ultimately, the most accurate depiction of Pakistani-Americans is one that dispenses with all the data and simply accepts it for what it is: a diverse diaspora that is anything but a monolith. It ranges from hourly wage workers to physicians, academics, and a growing number of state legislators and mayors; from Washington insider Huma Abedin (a close adviser to Hillary Clinton) to race-car driver Nur Ali (the first Pakistani to serve in this profession); from the eloquent writer Daniyal Mueenuddin to the notorious businessman Mansoor Ijaz; and from those who promote interfaith dialogue (American University professor Akbar Ahmed) to the occasional militant (Faisal Shahzad, the man accused of having unsuccessfully attempted to blow up Times Square).

I’m willing to bet that behind the troubling figures and snapshots that Dr Haider presents of Pakistani-Canadians, there lies a similarly nuanced and complex portrait of the diaspora in Canada – one that features its share of good news and success stories. Just as affluence is only one of various parts of the Pakistani-American story, poverty is likely only one of various aspects of the Pakistani-Canadian

http://dawn.com/2012/05/24/how-affluent-are-the-pakistani-americans/

Good article based on the stats Akher posted.

At least Brit Paks have one thing over the AMpaks in home ownership is around 70%.

 

[mani1]

Since you live in Britain, and can comment on my hypothesis - Would it be safe to assume that the "P-word" is actually used more often towards Non-Pakistanis than Pakistanis themselves? Look at the population of British Indians, British Bengalis, British Sri Lankans, and all other South Asian descents. Combined, they vastly outnumber the population of British Pakistanis.

To the racist white man however, everyone is basically the same. Wouldn't there be higher chances of racism being targeted toward Non-pakistanis based upon a pure numbers perspective alone?

Well in the rightwing papers the P word has been shown to be used against mainly Sikhs
heres one example

Racist graffiti daubed on sign in one of UK's most exclusive communities where villagers are fighting over planned Sikh school

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ghting-planned-Sikh-school.html#ixzz2OhBqafHg
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Pak-Legend]

This isn't exclusive to Pakistanis, but here are encounters of racism Muslims face in America. Again it shows both sides of the issues, there are many Americans who oppose racism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIDqgyK8fw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FFmkxhZYoE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5GHHbIUxZY

 

[Buffet]

In an earlier posted figure, I read that 87% of AmIndians are foreign-born. As per you, there are two ways of entering in the country:

-Family/Marriage. Now, if 87% are foreign-born, it's highly unlikely that a significant amount had family/marriage (less than 10% marry in an extra-ethnic context according to those stats).

-Selection following your skills and education.

The stats for AmPaks were not given but, even if it's remotely similar, that would mean 50 to 90% of AmPaks are selected on their earning potential. As a matter fact, the 80 000$ a year suddenly look quite low to me, if this is true :/

Ratio of people coming via skilled employment is much higher in case of India as compared to other countries due to IT sector. Indians usually don't sponsor their siblings to migrate. Pakistanis do lot more than Indians. Main reason is conditions back in their respective countries in last 2 decades. Indians used to do it earlier but it has slowed down in last 10-15 years and they came in big number only in last 10-15 years.

Then in BD case, it's totally different stats. Not only huge number of family sponsorship happens, they came here in huge number using lottery immigration visa( diversity visa). Random people from all over the world could apply , no qualification needed. Indians and Pakistani were not allowed due to already being a decent number here. I think now BD is also not qualified but they came in big number using that as well. First generation immigrants form Africa are also well educated but they often sponsor whole family down the line.

Ratio of skilled vs family immigration( siblings, parents) varies but family immigration is still a big number for most groups here. Foreign born doesn't necessarily means that everyone is highly qualified. Usually, one spouse will be in skilled category and other will fall in average case. Then quite a few bring their parents so they also count as foreign born.

I haven't done any survey but I do interact with lot of people. Just my observation and I might be wrong. Anyway, I think we are going off topic here. So I will stop.

 

[Buffet]

At least Brit Paks have one thing over the AMpaks in home ownership is around 70%.

Home ownership rate will go up with time for any group. Normally, first generation immigrants won't buy home till they get permanent residency or citizenship. Higher the % of 2nd/3rd generation immigrants, higher home ownership can be expected in US. I can't comment on UK. But in US that's the case with most groups because getting green card takes a while and it's bit difficult/uncertain. Buying & selling will set you back by 10% house price so you don't want to do it when you are not a permanent resident. Some still do it but that's not a norm.

 

[mani1]

Home ownership rate will go up with time for any group. Normally, first generation immigrants won't buy home till they get permanent residency or citizenship. Higher the % of 2nd/3rd generation immigrants, higher home ownership can be expected in US. I can't comment on UK. But in US that's the case with most groups.

Well according to them stats the average nation wide is 66% for the Brit Pak the figure was 73% but won't be surprised if it is slightly lower now with the huge amounts of "Students" and "Mirzai" asylum seekers.

One of the main reason for the Brit figures being low is most of the women don't work, which is changing these days for the better.

 

[saadibaba]

How affluent are the Pakistani-Americans?
Michael Kugelman | 24th May, 2012 199



– Illustration by Eefa Khalid/Dawn.com

Last week, I read Dr Murtaza Haider’s post on the poverty of Pakistani-Canadians with great interest.

As I was barraged by one startling statistic after the other – 44 per cent below the poverty line, nearly 50 per cent who don’t own homes, almost a quarter never having been in the workforce – I couldn’t help but think how drastically different this story was from that of Pakistani-Americans, who are generally regarded as a well-off diaspora.

Indeed, I know of no low-income area or slum in the United States populated predominantly by people of Pakistani origin, and I have never heard of a Pakistani-American homeless person. When one thinks of this community, the words most often coming to mind are prosperous and philanthropic.

Evidence gives credence to these perceptions. According to a 2011 report by the Asian American Center for Advancing Justice (AACAJ), which draws on data from the 2010 US Census and other US government sources, the median household income of Pakistani-American families is nearly $63,000. This is considerably higher than the figure for families in America on the whole ($51,369). Additionally, as I have pointed out previously, the most common jobs of Pakistani-Americans include doctors, accountants, and financial analysts, and 55 per cent hold at least a bachelor’s degree (this latter figure is only 28 per cent across the US population on the whole).

Broadly speaking, Pakistani-Americans appear to be economically secure and their positive experiences likely compel them to invite friends and family back in Pakistan to join them in America. Consider that Pakistani-Americans are the second-fastest-growing Asian-American ethnic group – their numbers more than doubled from 2000 to 2010, soaring from 204,309 to 409,163.

Yet, this isn’t the full story.

Dig a bit deeper into the AACAJ report, and you will come across some troubling data. Fifteen per cent of Pakistani-Americans fall below the poverty line – which happens to be the rate for the American population on the whole. Similarly, unemployment rates for the diaspora – 8 per cent (for those aged 16 and older) – reflect the rate for the total US population. On several measures, Pakistani-Americans are considerably worse off than the general population. Only 55 per cent own homes, compared to the nationwide figure of 66 per cent. Their per capita income is about $24,700, compared to $27,100 for the total population. And 23 per cent of Pakistani-Americans have no health insurance – which ties them with Bangladeshi-Americans for the highest percentage of any Asian-American ethnic group. This is significantly higher than the 15 per cent national figure (though Gallup polls suggest this figure has risen to 17 per cent in the last few months).

What should we make of this? On the one hand, many members of any immigrant group will face challenges as they adjust to their new home country. While quite a few Pakistani-Americans were born in the United States, the majority – about 65 per cent – were not. Therefore, for most of the community, the adjustment period is very much in the present.

Additionally, one can’t forget about all those blue-collar Pakistani-American workers, and particularly the taxicab drivers. According to US Census figures, “drivers and other transportation workers” constitute the third most common profession of Pakistani-Americans. In the words of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance, a union that represents cab drivers in New York City (where Pakistanis are heavily represented), employees have not received raises since 2004, “and they now earn below both the NY state minimum wage for a 12-hour shift and a NYC Living Wage (by 40 per cent).”

Ultimately, the most accurate depiction of Pakistani-Americans is one that dispenses with all the data and simply accepts it for what it is: a diverse diaspora that is anything but a monolith. It ranges from hourly wage workers to physicians, academics, and a growing number of state legislators and mayors; from Washington insider Huma Abedin (a close adviser to Hillary Clinton) to race-car driver Nur Ali (the first Pakistani to serve in this profession); from the eloquent writer Daniyal Mueenuddin to the notorious businessman Mansoor Ijaz; and from those who promote interfaith dialogue (American University professor Akbar Ahmed) to the occasional militant (Faisal Shahzad, the man accused of having unsuccessfully attempted to blow up Times Square).

I’m willing to bet that behind the troubling figures and snapshots that Dr Haider presents of Pakistani-Canadians, there lies a similarly nuanced and complex portrait of the diaspora in Canada – one that features its share of good news and success stories. Just as affluence is only one of various parts of the Pakistani-American story, poverty is likely only one of various aspects of the Pakistani-Canadian

http://dawn.com/2012/05/24/how-affluent-are-the-pakistani-americans/

Good article based on the stats Akher posted.

At least Brit Paks have one thing over the AMpaks in home ownership is around 70%.

Housing market is very unstable right now. Tbh, even myself who earn more than an average American will be reluctant to buy a house right now as prices may drop again, plus houses here cost a lot. A modest house for a family of two in a decent neighborhood cost upwards to $250,000. Once economy gets better and housing market stabilizes, you will see higher home ownership across the board.

Plus, in the article you quoted, 65% of AmPaks are first generation and since our population has doubled in the last 10 years, half of us have just been here less ten years. So even if you have good jobs, it takes some savings and stability of job (meaning if are going to stay in a particular city/town for a while or not) all contribute towards the decision to buy a house or not.

 

[Buffet]

Housing market is very unstable right now. Tbh, even myself who earn more than an average American will be reluctant to buy a house right now as prices may drop again, plus houses here cost a lot. A modest house for a family of two in a decent neighborhood cost upwards to $250,000. Once economy gets better and housing market stabilizes, you will see higher home ownership across the board.

Plus, in the article you quoted, 65% of AmPaks are first generation and since our population has doubled in the last 10 years, half of us have just been here less ten years. So even if you have good jobs, it takes some savings and stability of job (meaning if are going to stay in a particular city/town for a while or not) all contribute towards the decision to buy a house or not.

If you know where you are going to stay for the next 10 years then buying is a no brainer decision. You end up taking a very very cheap debt before inflation kicks in. Inflation will kick in for sure , I don't know when but if your time horizon is long then think about a situation where you have locked-in 3.75% interest rate for 30 years( effectively 2.5% if you take account of tax deduction) and inflation is 5-7%. You will come out so far ahead in long run even if price fluctuates a bit. Even now inflation is 2% in real terms so banks are literally giving close to free money given that in US you can lock the rates for 30 years. In Canada, 30 year loan doesn't even exist.

Also national price is not going to go down a lot from here. Housing starts was below half million and it is right now at 800-900K. Average family formation is 1.2M so plenty of scope to have inventory being limited for a while. I am 100% sure that you will come out far ahead in long term by locking such a cheap debt. It's matter of time before treasure will stop buying MBS( mortgage backed securities) and interest rates will start moving up. When? I don't know the exact time but it will happen in next 6-18 months. Even if it happens in 2-3 years, your decision to lock-in cheap debt will do wonders. There might be some variation in your local market but over all situation won't change in long term. Rates will go up as soon as economy looks better and unemployment drops below 6.5%.

I know I am going off topic here, but couldn't resist giving my input here. If you need any input or help in convincing why it is a good idea, let me know. Housing crash could have been predicted easily looking at few key factors. Not the exact timing but outcome was easy to spot like a slow train wreck. House prices won't go up too much any time soon but key in cheap debt with relatively reasonable price. Even if price drops 10% but rates are near 6% then your mortgage payment will be around 50% higher. Simply, said one of the best decision anyone can make in US to buy a house for living with 30 year loan if that person knows that he/she will stay there for 10 years. Might not be true in all pockets of US due to rental to purchase ratio but it is true in almost every area.

 

[saadibaba]

This is exactly the issue I want to tackle.

Anyone can come to their own conclusion of American Pakistanis (on average) being a lot more educated, earning higher incomes, living in lower rates of poverty etc. when compared to Pakistanis abroad. Heck, American Pakistanis might also be far more open to integration and assimilation (this has been discussed in this thread several times) compared to Pakistanis abroad. Nobody is trying to deny that American Pakistanis can be open minded and liberal in their viewpoints.

However, the problem is despite all of these efforts, is America accepting Pakistanis as a part of their own? How come there are still elements of racism whenever you go to an American news forum? How come there are still stereotypes of being from Arabia? How come Pakistanis still experience racism? This isn't only exclusive to the USA, but to the whole of North America. If American Pakistanis want to achieve true success, they need to mobilize themselves and empower themselves through political and cultural movements, like the British Pakistanis have.

Time will only tell whether or not the situation deteriorates or improves for American Pakistanis (again, don't take my words out of context, I'm not trying to sound like there is a war or going on - I'm just referring to the political and cultural aspects), as well as for British Pakistanis (who probably need to improve on the economic front a lot more).

Can't speak for all AmPaks but I am accepted very well. My best friend here is a white American, who was born and raised in West Virginia (very white and rural south state), the neighborhood I live is 80% white and tbh, I am the rude one here. Same at my work place. Most of my neighbors and colleagues will go out of their to be nice to me, wave at me, stop to chat with me (which I personally abhor because I hate small talk) invite me to their events, remember my Bday when I hardly remember anyone's, etc. I've been in the most rural areas of the south, eaten where red neck truck drivers eat, encountered people which on paper would be your classic racist types and believe me, not once have I faced any racism. I've read stuff in the news and yeah Fox News and Talk radio jerks like Beck,Hannity, Limbaugh etc. do spout a lot of garbage and I won't lie but it's actually pretty funny listening to them. But it's a tiny minority, of course that one in a million racist act makes the news while the 99999 acts of openness, acceptance and friendship do not. Same everywhere else I guess.

 

[saadibaba]

If you know where you are going to stay for the next 10 years then buying is a no brainer decision. You end up taking a very very cheap debt before inflation kicks in. Inflation will kick in for sure , I don't know when but if your time horizon is long then think about a situation where you have locked-in 3.75% interest rate for 30 years( effectively 2.5% if you take account of tax deduction) and inflation is 5-7%. You will come out so far ahead in long run even if price fluctuates a bit. Even now inflation is 2% in real terms so banks are literally giving close to free money given that in US you can lock the rates for 30 years. In Canada, 30 year loan doesn't even exist.

Also national price is not going to go down a lot from here. Housing starts was below half million and it is right now at 800-900K. Average family formation is 1.2M so plenty of scope to have inventory being limited for a while. I am 100% sure that you will come out far ahead in long term by locking such a cheap debt. It's matter of time before treasure will stop buying MBS( mortgage backed securities) and interest rates will start moving up. When? I don't know the exact time but it will happen in next 6-18 months. Even if it happens in 2-3 years, your decision to lock-in cheap debt will do wonders. There might be some variation in your local market but over all situation won't change in long term. Rates will go up as soon as economy looks better and unemployment drops below 6.5%.

I know I am going off topic here, but couldn't resist giving my input here. If you need any input or help in convincing why it is a good idea, let me know.

Thanks Buffet, very valuable advice. I've been leaning towards buying myself. Only waiting to make sure I'm staying in one area for at least 10 years or so, like you said. I know the interest rates are not going to stay low long. Also, probably need to think of it as an investment. A few of my buddies got burned in the housing bubble when the economy collapsed in 2008, which made me doubly cautious. But I agree with you, need to lock in a house while the prices and interest rates are low.

 

[Buffet]

Thanks Buffet, very valuable advice. I've been leaning towards buying myself. Only waiting to make sure I'm staying in one area for at least 10 years or so, like you said. I know the interest rates are not going to stay low long. Also, probably need to think of it as an investment. A few of my buddies got burned in the housing bubble when the economy collapsed in 2008, which made me doubly cautious. But I agree with you, need to lock in a house while the prices and interest rates are low.

I had money and fixed location in 2005 itself. I manage money for high net worth individuals so I was doing plenty of research for few housing builders/market for investment. That research made me sit out till 2010 when I ended up buying for myself. Rates might not shoot up too quickly but in 4-6 years, it's going to be substantially higher. Do it if you know your 10 year plans and have no problem with keeping 8-10 months of mortgage payment in bank, in case you happen to lose job. It does restrict your mobility a bit. Just make sure to not pay more in monthly interest payment when compared to rental cost of similar unit. As long as you stick to that, you will do more than fine in long term.

 

[GentleMan]

i think i will never be able to own a house of my own...in india it is so expensive to buy a 2 bedroom flat in a city...and you end up buying a box in the air.. you dont own actual land. in early days kings built monuments so that everyone remembers them..i also want to leave a monument of my own..if not a house, at least something that stands the test of time.

i have a dream of having a brick walled house with a big kitchen, bathroom with mirrors on the walls, private library and a bar where i entertain guests..and a lawn where i grow tomatoes and cauliflower.. don't know when this dream will come true.

 

[saadibaba]

I had money and fixed location in 2005 itself. I manage money for high net worth individuals so I was doing plenty of research for few housing builders/market for investment. That research made me sit out till 2010 when I ended up buying for myself. Rates might not shoot up too quickly but in 4-6 years, it's going to be substantially higher. Do it if you know your 10 year plans and have no problem with keeping 8-10 months of mortgage payment in bank, in case you happen to lose job. It does restrict your mobility a bit. Just make sure to not pay more in monthly interest payment when compared to rental cost of similar unit. As long as you stick to that, you will do more than fine in long term.

Thanks for the 'free' advice. Hopefully in the not so distant future I will be able acquire your services to manage my assets too.

 

[saadibaba]

i think i will never be able to own a house of my own...in india it is so expensive to buy a 2 bedroom flat in a city...and you end up buying a box in the air.. you dont own actual land. in early days kings built monuments so that everyone remembers them..i also want to leave a monument of my own..if not a house, at least something that stands the test of time.

i have a dream of having a brick walled house with a big kitchen, bathroom with mirrors on the walls, private library and a bar where i entertain guests..and a lawn where i grow tomatoes and cauliflower.. don't know when this dream will come true.

Don't worry GM, there's always room for new houses in America. I know an Indian uncle here who has built a custom made castle like house. Tv's in every room and all the bathroom, lion statues on top of the swimming pool, gold everywhere. It's very gaudy but he has the money to do whatever he wants and noone puts him down here for that, in fact they respect his extravagant tastes.

 

[KarachiKing]

Islamic, yet Integrated : Why Muslims fare better in USA than Europe?

Very interesting article in the Economist. Brings home a lot of truths. It is a shame that such communities in Europe have failed to integrate. There doesnt need to be assimilation but integration is a must.

THE State Department estimates that up to 100 American jihadists are fighting in Iraq and Syria. A video appearing to show a second American journalist being beheaded by the Islamic State is circulating. You might think this would be a difficult time to hold the annual conference of America’s largest Muslim organisation.

Yet the Islamic Society of North America’s gathering, which took place in Detroit over the Labour Day weekend, served as a reminder of how well America is assimilating a religious minority that has often struggled to feel at home in Europe. The conference hall was filled with Muslims of different races wearing clothes that identified them with different traditions. The Islamic Boy Scouts had a stand, as did a Muslim liberal-arts college from California. PEOPLE discussed how to erect mosques without infringing America’s arcane building regulations, or swapped BUSINESS CARDS in the food court. The star turn was a Southern Baptist, Jimmy Carter (whose grandson is in the news, too: see page 42). The only overt hostility to Israel came from two Hasidic Jews in fur shtreimel hats, who had come from Brooklyn to announce their solidarity with the people of Gaza.

America’s Muslims differ from Europe’s in both quantity and origin. The census does not ask about faith, but estimates put the number of Muslims in the country at around 1% of the population, compared with 4.5% in Britain and 5% in Germany. Moreover, American Islam is not dominated by a single sect or ethnicity. When the Pew Research Centre last tried to count, in 2011, it found Muslims from 77 countries in America. Most western European countries, by contrast, have one or two dominant groups—Algerians in France, Moroccans and Turks in Holland. This matters because the jumble of groups in America makes it harder for Muslim immigrants and their descendants to lead a life apart. Different traditions get squashed together. When building mosques, says Chris McCoy, a Kentucky native who is a prolific architect of Islamic buildings, “the question is usually not whether we should have an Indian- or a Saudi-style dome but, can we afford a dome?” Mixing breeds tolerance: Pew found that most American Muslims think that their faith is open to multiple interpretations, making them the Episcopalians of the Islamic world.

America’s Muslims are better off than their European co-religionists. They are almost as likely as other Americans to report a household income of $100,000 or more. The same cannot be said of the Pakistanis who came to work in the now-defunct textile mills of northern England or the Turks who became guest workers in West Germany. Many American Muslims arrived in the 1970s to complete their higher education and ended up staying. Muzammil Siddiqi, chairman of the Fiqh Council of North America, which issues fatwas, or religious opinions, to guide the behaviour of the country’s Muslims, is typical: he was born in India and holds a Harvard PhD in comparative religion.

There is a stark contrast between this group and some of the more recent immigrants from Somalia, who have fewer qualifications and lower wages (as do African-American Muslims, who make up about an eighth of the total). This divide, if anything, makes America’s Muslims look more like the nation as a whole.

On various measures of integration, Muslims score fairly well (see chart). A Pew study from 2011 found that 15% of Muslims who are married or living with someone have a spouse of a different faith. This may sound low, but it is higher than the intermarriage rate for American Jews at a comparable moment in their history, and above that of modern Mormons. According to the Pentagon, there were 3,600 Muslims on active duty in the armed forces in January 2012, the most recent date for which numbers are available. This reflects a plan to recruit Muslims to fight in Islamic countries where an ability to speak Arabic or Pashto is helpful.

Alas, one or two American Muslims fight for the other side. In 2009 Nidal Hasan, a US army psychiatrist, shot and killed 13 PEOPLE on a military base in Texas. He was encouraged by Anwar al-Awlaki, an American propagandist for al-Qaeda, who was himself killed in a drone strike in Yemen in 2011. The State Department says that the government has increased the scrutiny of travel plans made by people who have expressed sympathy with foreign Islamists, and will monitor Muslims returning from Iraq and Syria.

But this is hard. Douglas McCain, a 33-year-old African-American who converted to Islam in 2004 and was killed in August while fighting in Syria, travelled to the war zone via Turkey—an unremarkable place to go on holiday. Moner Abusalha, who drove a truck bomb into a restaurant in Syria in May, went to Jordan, returned to Florida and then set off on his suicide mission. In both cases relatives and friends were baffled by what the two men did. Nor is it clear that there were grounds for preventing either from travelling abroad.

A few bad apples
For the past dozen years the FBI and other agencies have been watching mosques in the hope of spotting would-be terrorists early. This has yielded little, although the FBI did reveal one alarming conspiracy in 2009, when four men were convicted of planning to shoot down planes with missiles and burn synagogues in New York. Not many American Muslims want to become terrorists. And as the deaths of Mr McCain and Mr Abusalha suggest, there is no map for the journey from basketball-loving teen to violent extremist.

If the September 11th attacks permanently altered America’s view of Islam, they also changed Islam in America. Peter Skerry of Boston College says that a few decades ago it was common for religious leaders to agonise over whether it was possible to be a good Muslim and live in America. That argument disappeared almost overnight, as did the question of whether it was appropriate for American Muslims to vote. At the conference in Detroit, speakers made frequent approving references to the protection afforded to the free exercise of religion by the constitution. Mr McCoy, the architect, regretted that his elderly clients often wanted to stick a minaret on their mosques to make them look like something from back home. He longed, he said, for American Islam to create distinctive architectural forms of its own. In this, style lags substance. When it comes to their faith, America’s Muslims have already made something new.

 

[KarachiKing]

SOURCE: http://www.economist.com/news/unite...-better-america-europe-islamic-yet-integrated

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Discussed before elsewhere - I'll bump that thread for you.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

*Bumped* for Karachi King.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ed-Why-Muslims-fare-better-in-USA-than-Europe

 

[KarachiKing]

^ ok, my bad!

Mods, delete this if you want or we can just discuss the article

 

[FreeBird]

It's a shame that after second and third generation, BritPaks are at the low end of totem pole in the British social ranks.

 

[TSA321]

Tbf this is about Muslims, other thread is about Pakistanis.

 

[Saeed]

Maybe european muslims are from poor families meaning less money and less education.

 

[Laparwah]

I think Muslims who immigrated to the USA were much better qualified then their European counterparts.

 

[amax]

usually US allow/attract highly educated/top quality human capital, Pakistani Americans are doing good but than you have communities like Iranian American who are very successful and liberal.

 

[GenericBrand]

I think the US is much more strict in their immigration criteria than the European countries, and also there is also the 'Melting Pot' process that makes immigrants much more assimilated to the country's culture and identity.

 

[speed]

70% of pakistanis in the uk are Mirpuris, usa there is much more diversity.

 

[TSA321]

70% of pakistanis in the uk are Mirpuris, usa there is much more diversity.

Only 38% of UK Muslims are of Pakistani descent according to the 2011 census.

 

[speed]

That's a lot

 

[TSA321]

True but not the majority. My point is you can't just blame integration problems of British Muslims on Mirpuris who only account for about 20% of British Muslims.

 

[KarachiKing]

I guess the 2 main reasons are:

1) Dominance of a few ethnic groups
2)Unskilled immigrants

 

[Buffet]

Does UK discourage integration or somehow it happened? Keeping the original culture intact in UK is taken to an extreme and you have multiple communities where culture/tradition of immigrants are maintained. That's the impression I got. I have not spent time in UK so just an impression and I could be wrong.

In US, we also see certain immigrants living in specific areas but it's much more mixed here. But this is not the main reason. It's pretty much due to US allowing and attracting higher skilled talents. Talking relatively here.

 

[just saying]

Integration of Muslims into western countries is not as good as other communities, because for some Muslims their allegiance lies with Islam and other Muslim countries, rather than than the western countries - they or their parents migrated to.

[utube]Ssj_pOHM8pg[/utube]

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

According to the Pentagon, there were 3,600 Muslims on active duty in the armed forces in January 2012, the most recent date for which numbers are available. This reflects a plan to recruit Muslims to fight in Islamic countries where an ability to speak Arabic or Pashto is helpful.

That plan is going quite well I would suggest.

 

[OZGOD]

But according to some people here America is the devil and the source of all evil in the world? Why would Muslims want to move there?


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[RWAC]

But according to some people here America is the devil and the source of all evil in the world? Why would Muslims want to move there?


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To infiltrate the enemy within their ranks!

 

[Zanjeer]

But according to some people here America is the devil and the source of all evil in the world? Why would Muslims want to move there?


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those who speak bad of USA would immigrate to that country in a heartbeat. lol.

 

[KarachiKing]

But according to some people here America is the devil and the source of all evil in the world? Why would Muslims want to move there?


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not that I am remotely in that particular camp but on a personal level I always disassociate the actions of a country's government to the sentiments or behaior of its people

 

[RWAC]

not that I am remotely in that particular camp but on a personal level I always disassociate the actions of a country's government to the sentiments or behaior of its people

But it can always be argued that by immigrating there and paying taxes, you are indirectly supporting the actions of that government.

 

[KarachiKing]

But it can always be argued that by immigrating there and paying taxes, you are indirectly supporting the actions of that government.

Thats one argument. And on a superficial level, this can be used to put across the point you are making but if one takes the economic and financial complexities of how the US tax system works into account, the argument does not hold at all.

In any case, I am neither immigrating to the US nor do I hold such views so on a personal level this does not affect me at all

 

[RWAC]

Thats one argument. And on a superficial level, this can be used to put across the point you are making but if one takes the economic and financial complexities of how the US tax system works into account, the argument does not hold at all.

Okay let's hear what you have to say.

In any case, I am neither immigrating to the US nor do I hold such views so on a personal level this does not affect me at all

It's all good, my man. This wasn't directed at you personally.

 

[Atif]

70% of pakistanis in the uk are Mirpuris, usa there is much more diversity.

And Mirpuris are not educated or successful?




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[FreeBird]

I guess with many other reasons, one of the reason why not only Pakistanis but many other immigrants from other countries are successful in the U.S. because U.S. is not a welfare state.
You must work and you must work hard - and you will be rewarded. That's the name of the game here.

But again, many of us desis also have a nature to suck up on the welfare whenever and whereever we get a chance.
I have seen almost every Bengali having a food stamp card.

Saw two Pakiatani women in Sabzi mandi the other day. They drove a $60K Infinity Q56.
Both had food stamps to buy piyaaz timaater, sabzi, daal, fruit etc.

 

[OZGOD]

not that I am remotely in that particular camp but on a personal level I always disassociate the actions of a country's government to the sentiments or behaior of its people

That's good and the way to do it. Shame there aren't more people like you.

 

[Fallen King]

That's true. PTI's supporters in overseas, most of them, happen to be from Bradfordistan.

 

[Atif]

That's true. PTI's supporters in overseas, most of them, happen to be from Bradfordistan.

What's PTI got do with this?


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[Fallen King]

What's PTI got do with this?


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I have noticed majority of oversea Imranistan is from Bradford; unsuccessful and paindo log. Indeed, Bradford has reputation that is not to be proud of. That explains immature behaviors from oversea Imranistan.

 

[afzaal1988]

Grow up kid. Calling others paindo and unsuccessful. what have you achieved in your life?

 

[Atif]

I have noticed majority of oversea Imranistan is from Bradford; unsuccessful and paindo log. Indeed, Bradford has reputation that is not to be proud of. That explains immature behaviors from oversea Imranistan.

Unsuccessful? Have u ever been to great Horton Road or Leeds road? Those are Mirpurs who run successful restaurants where Pakistanis from all over the country come and eat!

Every city in UK has the good and bad Pakistanis.

You are just a hater, typical Mohajir?







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[Fallen King]

Unsuccessful? Have u ever been to great Horton Road or Leeds road? Those are Mirpurs who run successful restaurants where Pakistanis from all over the country come and eat!

Every city in UK has the good and bad Pakistanis.

You are just a hater, typical Mohajir?







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Actually, my family background is in Mirpur; however, i was born in Karachi. Paindo and unsuccessful is not problems which i shouldn't have said that. Unfortunately, Mirpuris including Bradfordistan is known for jahaalat acts; outright inhumane in term of treating women, forced marriage, and other things that Bradford is known for which cannot be said openly. I have family in Bradford.

Despite of what you say, they are not fit for civilizations. It is good thing that i am kept away from those jaahil logs. There is no hope for Mirpur and Bradford. Aghay Allah Jaanay!

I am truly glad that those Mirpuris didn't bring their Jahaalat acts to North America.

 

[mani1]

Actually, my family background is in Mirpur; however, i was born in Karachi. Paindo and unsuccessful is not problems which i shouldn't have said that. Unfortunately, Mirpuris including Bradfordistan is known for jahaalat acts; outright inhumane in term of treating women, forced marriage, and other things that Bradford is known for which cannot be said openly. I have family in Bradford.

Despite of what you say, they are not fit for civilizations. It is good thing that i am kept away from those jaahil logs. There is no hope for Mirpur and Bradford. Aghay Allah Jaanay!

I am truly glad that those Mirpuris didn't bring their Jahaalat acts to North America.

Yet the last major honour killing which was Shafila ahmed who was punjabi also Saira Ahmed straight out of Lahore wrote a book about her ordeal

Brought up in a stiflingly traditional Muslim household in England, where the rules are enforced by violent punishments, Saira is watched 24 hours a day. Cut off from modern life, chaperoned to and from school, she is forbidden to have Western friends. When an innocent friendship with a boy flourishes, one of Saira's brothers finds out and she is put on the first plane to Lahore, punished for dishonouring the family. There the nightmare really begins - Saira is forced to marry a stranger who makes it clear that all he wants from her is sex and a visa. After a hair-raising escape back to England, she eventually returns to the family home, but as a virtual slave. Refusing to be beaten, she escapes once more, but with her parents in financial trouble and with one of her brothers running up huge drug debts, Saira is forced to earn money the only way she can: by selling her body. Wracked with shame and guilt at having fallen into prostitution, Saira hits rock bottom, marries again and has a daughter who is the light of her life. Her husband, however, reveals himself to be a violent bully. After one beating too many, Saira flees with her baby daughter and sets about the harrowing ordeal of re-building their shattered lives.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Disgraced-Saira-Ahmed/dp/140743201X

Lets not even go into terrorism.

As for Canada

Pakistan-born immigrants are the new face of poverty in urban Canada. The Canadian census revealed that 44 per cent of Pakistan-born immigrants fell below the poverty line making them the second most poverty prone group of immigrants in Canada.

http://www.dawn.com/news/718842/pakistani-canadians-falling-below-the-poverty-line

Also Mirpuris don't makew 70% of the UK Pakistani population that is just a made up figurwe.

1. Introduction and Background1
A census report by the Institute for Public Policy Research in London counted that 7.53 percent of
Britain’s population in 2001 was born overseas.2 Among the top non-UK birthplaces of Britain's
population, Pakistan was ranked third after Republic of Ireland and India.3 British Pakistanis mainly hail
from three parts of Pakistan and Azad Kashmir: Mirpur, which has produced more than 42 percent of
their over one million population in Britain,4 and North and Central Punjab. Many British Pakistanis
also belong to Peshawar, Karachi and interior Sindh.

san-pips.com/download.php?f=134.pdf

 

[Savak]

A distant uncle of mine, who was born, raised and schooled in the UK, shifted to the US after getting his green card. Since then he has enjoyed a 30 year career at verizon and he criticizes the UK, claiming the US is better in terms of professional development and career graph for Muslims compared to the UK

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[Dios]

How do British Indians compare with North American Indians? I think it's definitely a skill issue. Britain operated a somewhat open-door policy with regards to immigration for many years due to their need for unskilled labour as a result many low-skilled people from the old British colonies flooded to the UK.

 

[Buffet]

How do British Indians compare with North American Indians? I think it's definitely a skill issue. Britain operated a somewhat open-door policy with regards to immigration for many years due to their need for unskilled labour as a result many low-skilled people from the old British colonies flooded to the UK.

Good point but I think there is more to the story here. Immigration system should be the same for all ethnic groups in UK.

The proportion of people who live in low-income households in UK is:

• 20% for White people.
• 30% for Indians and Black Caribbeans.
• 50% for Black Africans.
• 60% for Pakistanis.
• 70% for Bangladeshis.

Around 30 per cent of non-retired white British women aged 25 and over are not in paid work, with only slightly higher proportions for black Caribbeans, white Other and Indians. For black Africans, the proportion rises to almost 50 per cent. But what really stands out is that the vast majority – 80 per cent – of Bangladeshi and Pakistani women are not in paid work.


http://www.poverty.org.uk/06/index.shtml

http://www.poverty.org.uk/reports/ethnicity.pdf

---------------------------

80% women not working is the major factor in my opinion. I don't know why it's the case in UK but it explains the reason for Pakistani and Bangladeshi households being around the bottom when it comes to household income. Some one can probably explain the reason for this phenomenon but that's the single largest reason in my opinion as far as situation within UK is concerned.

I couldn't find the exact same data for US but but it seems more women of Pakistani origin work are integrated and work here. Percentage of women not working is no anywhere close to 80%.

Around 32% of women of Pakistani origin work in some professional capacity and around 10% are self employed. It says 10% also work in finance and management but I am not sure if they are not counted in the first category. Anyway, a much larger percentage of women work in US when compared to UK if they have a link to Pakistan.

I think that's the reason for median household income of Pakistani-American families being around $63,000. This is considerably higher than the figure for families in America - $51,369. It's from 2010 census report.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_American

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Buffet]

Graph captures it in simple to understand format.



I don't know what's unique when it comes to women from BD or Pakistani origin in UK but this is a major factor. You can see that there is not much difference for men but for women it's a huge difference. There is no way you can do very well as community if 80% of women are not working.

 

[KingKhanWC]

America celebrates patriotism so immigrants have to follow suit. Very rarely will an American from any ethnic minority background criticise anything regarding their adopted country. Many American Pakistani's have only succeeded in becoming uncle toms.

 

[Buffet]

America celebrates patriotism so immigrants have to follow suit. Very rarely will an American from any ethnic minority background criticise anything regarding their adopted country. Many American Pakistani's have only succeeded in becoming uncle toms.

I don't think it's true. Immigrants in US are widely seen criticizing federal and state government on many issues.

Now if you are talking abut the scale then it's understandable that a better off group will relatively criticize less. American Pakistani household income is substantially higher than an average american house. It will make sense to see less criticism from that group. Now if you see Latinos then their household income is less than an average household. You will see them criticizing a lot more. Same goes for blacks in US. Nothing illogical about it. Better off folks have less reason to criticize or get involved in crime. It's true for US, UK or any other place. I am pretty sure, if you pull crime rates in UK then you will see a trend of lower income groups being more involved in crime.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I don't think it's true. Immigrants in US are widely seen criticizing federal and state government on many issues.

Now if you are talking abut the scale then it's understandable that a better off group will relatively criticize less. American Pakistani household income is substantially higher than an average american house. It will make sense to see less criticism from that group. Now if you see Latinos then their household income is less than an average household. You will see them criticizing a lot more. Same goes for blacks in US. Nothing illogical about it. Happier folks have less reason to criticize or get involved in crime. It's true for US, UK or any other place.

Sorry I should have made it clear. I was referring to foreign policy rather than domestic because it's criticising foreign policy which can make you look like a traitor.

As an American can you ever say openly your nation is engaging in state terrorism against Muslims without being labelled as a traitor?

 

[Buffet]

Sorry I should have made it clear. I was referring to foreign policy rather than domestic because it's criticising foreign policy which can make you look like a traitor.

As an American can you ever say openly your nation is engaging in state terrorism against Muslims without being labelled as a traitor?

Just because you say so it hardly makes it true.

As far as criticism of foreign policy by as American goes, I have written twice to my senator against usage of drones in Afghanistan-Pakistan border. I used harsh tone in second letter because a lot more innocent folks are likely to get killed by drones than terrorists. I have talked to a person who left the drone operator job and he held a similar view. Many folks do it and they don't get branded as traitor. It will be ridiculous.

Yah, if some one has an extremist view then they don't take criticism of foreign policy that well and blindly support all actions but it's not true for everyone. We have enough nut cases here is US as well but nothing stops you to criticize your government's foreign policies.

People get immediately impacted by domestic policies and that's why you see more talk about domestic issues in US but I guess it will be true for any country. Only reason drones can be used for so long because majority of folks here don't even know much about what's going on and how it impacts civilian population. I am using drones here as an example but it's the same situation in any foreign policies. Majority simply don't get involved with foreign policy discussion in US, just like any other country.

Here is one protest near white house:



Another in Atlanta:



These protesters are not branded as traitors.

 

[Dios]

Bangladeshi community in the UK is a disgrace. Vast majority (90%+) are from the Greater Sylhet region in Bangladesh. Some of the most parochial, backward people you'll ever meet. They'll happily live in poverty or have dozens of kids in order to claim higher benefits than be subjected to the ignominy of having their wives go to work. Of course there are exceptions and many people from the community have been successful in British society such as Rushunara Ali, Faisal Islam and more but the community as a whole needs to take a long, hard look at itself and what they've achieved in all these decades other than owning the majority of curry houses in the UK.

From what I understand, Bangladeshis in the US and Canada are generally doing better much better than their British counterparts. Again the Bangladeshi community in North America is much more diverse and not from just one area in particular and much more skilled as well with a greater emphasis on education and careers.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Just because you say so it hardly makes it true.

I'm shocked you don't agree. Please start a thread on this topic and lay out your reasons for dismissing this.

As far as criticism of foreign policy by as American goes, I have written twice to my senator against usage of drones in Afghanistan-Pakistan border. I used harsh tone in second letter because a lot more innocent folks are likely to get killed by drones than terrorists. I have talked to a person who left the drone operator job and he held a similar view. Many folks do it and they don't get branded as traitor. It will be ridiculous.

Good on you but it depends on what you say. A lot of Americans are against drones because drones are also flying over America but obviously not dropping bombs on people.

I'm not sure why you have posted pictures of white Americans protesting against drones. My point was in context with the thread topic, American Pakistani Muslims who oppose US foreign policy.

The best example is CAIR who openly speak up in defence of Palestinians and because they refused to label Hamas as a terrorist organisation the FBI cut all ties with them. Many of their officials have been arrested or deported by the US for having this support.

This is interesting research by PEW which shows US Muslims are more closer to the foreign policies of the west compared to Muslims in other western nations. This cant be due to them being more educated because the foreign polices of the US in Muslim nations is criticised world over. I think the difference is because many like to stand with the nation they are living in rather than wanting conflict of views.

http://pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

 

[TSA321]

Graph captures it in simple to understand format.

View attachment 48661

I don't know what's unique when it comes to women from BD or Pakistani origin in UK but this is a major factor. You can see that there is not much difference for men but for women it's a huge difference. There is no way you can do very well as community if 80% of women are not working.

Even Pakistani American women have very low employment rates.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-17.pdf

I do agree with you about British Pakistani and Bangladeshi women not working causing the community as a whole to do badly. Though if you look at stats the rate does seem to be slowly improving.
http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/medialib...mployment-persisted-between-1991-2011 (1).pdf