British Pakistanis, less successful compared to North American Pakistanis?

[endymion248]

Oh I hate football, like basketball though. As per some you can never call yourself "American" unless you like football and Dr.Pepper. No on both for me. So I guess I am still not integrated enough.

As long as you're not in south east, you should be fine

Or move up to Canada, it's the best

 

[saadibaba]

It's just two jam-spreaders meeting up. Usually ends like that because, ya know, electrical charges and all

Ok Ok, I think you guys need to take a chill pill now.

I have invested a lot in this thread and would hate to have the mods delete it.

 

[Pak-Legend]

Do you live in US ?

I don't live too far from the border. I've visited it enough times to come to my conclusions. I'm not a freshie/fob either, so I've had years of relevant experiences living in North America to come to my conclusions.

 

[saadibaba]

As long as you're not in south east, you should be fine

Or move up to Canada, it's the best

Its all good here....South gets a bad rep. We got all kinds of hipsters, artsy, liberal minded folks here too.

 

[HaMmy FinE LeG StriKeR]

I'm not just calling them murderers and terrorists, they are. Because they are claimed to be representative samples of Karachi, the same way UK villagers are uneducated because representative samples of rural villages.

i can discuss all these things and what your own guy nawaz did to karachi but its not the suitable place, create a thread and i'll answer all your queries there

 

[endymion248]

I hope "," stands for "or"

My message was more about football and DrPepper but there must be many counter-stream people there too.

 

[saadibaba]

I don't live too far from the border. I've visited it enough times to come to my conclusions. I'm not a freshie/fob either, so I've had years of relevant experiences living in North America to come to my conclusions.

Well, I disagree and I've already described why I disagree to such a viewpoint multiple times in this thread. You are entitled to your opinion. Our population has doubled since Sept 11, would be hard to imagine that happening if things were so bad in US like you describe.

 

[endymion248]

i can discuss all these things and what your own guy nawaz did to karachi but its not the suitable place, create a thread and i'll answer all your queries there

Don't talk about Nawaz that way. He is the hero of Pak and the one who will take us out of the hole Altaf and Zardari threw us in.

 

[saadibaba]

I hope "," stands for "or"

My message was more about football and DrPepper but there must be many counter-stream people there too.

Nah man, Canada too cold, me like warm weather

 

[endymion248]

Nah man, Canada too cold, me like warm weather

I remember now. You're from Memphis or Phoenix, right?

 

[saadibaba]

I remember now. You're from Memphis or Phoenix, right?

Tennessee....close to Memphis.

 

[endymion248]

Ok Ok, I think you guys need to take a chill pill now.

I have invested a lot in this thread and would hate to have the mods delete it.

Come on, I was smiling most of the time reading his post and writing. Either, I am the new Younis or it proves that it's all in good spirit

 

[Buffet]

The expression of freedom is practised in Britain much more regularly than in America.

100% False statement. Constitution of US has more freedom of expression and speech than UK. UK doesn't have anything like first amendment.

. In other words a less tolerant society leads to the settler having to integrate. That's why there are probably more Pakistan's earning more and with better jobs possibly. AmPaks have No choice but to integrate or they'd be singled out.

I thought most posters were arguing about how UK Pakistani are more integrated by being in sports, movies , politics etc.

 

[endymion248]

100% False statement. Constitution of US has more freedom of expression and speech than UK. UK doesn't have anything like first amendment.

And it's better that way, honestly. Too many violence incitation and hate speeches can go unpunished under 1st amendment.

 

[HaMmy FinE LeG StriKeR]

Don't talk about Nawaz that way. He is the hero of Pak and the one who will take us out of the hole Altaf and Zardari threw us in.

dude seriously? he is your hero guy like nawaz is your hero

 

[GentleMan]

Tennessee is the best place i have visited so far. i was in gatlinburg to see the fall colors..what a colorful small town having something for everyone.. when i get married, i will bring my wife here on a honeymoon trip.. not las vegas or miami for me, but small towns full of natural beauty and life.

 

[saadibaba]

Come on, I was smiling most of the time reading his post and writing. Either, I am the new Younis or it proves that it's all in good spirit

Good to know. You both are the my fav. posters. Even though its fun seeing you guys go at eachother, in the end I want you guys to keep it fun.

 

[saadibaba]

Tennessee is the best place i have visited so far. i was in gatlinburg to see the fall colors..what a colorful small town having something for everyone.. when i get married, i will bring my wife here on a honeymoon trip.. not las vegas or miami for me, but small towns full of natural beauty and life.

Oh yeah, its pretty in the fall too. Nashville is pretty slick, you should visit if you have not already.

 

[Pak-Legend]

Well, I disagree and I've already described why I disagree to such a viewpoint multiple times in this thread. You are entitled to your opinion. Our population has doubled since Sept 11, would be hard to imagine that happening if things were so bad in US like you describe.

Pakistanis have had to go through several additional security checks since the attacks of 9/11 if they want to enter into America - this should have hinted to the fact that there is more regulation and unnecessary suspicion towards Pakistanis (even for those who were born and bred in North America), just because most of them have a Muslim background.

Furthermore, several Pakistanis from the New York Community (about 45,000 out of the estimated 100,000) were either deported or left voluntarily on their behalf (most of them migrated to Canada or back home to Pakistan). The most notable case, being a Princeton graduate, who was deported back to Pakistan for no apparent reason, and no case was ever proved against him.

Don't forget the Arab stereotype and the Terrorist stereotype that Pakistanis have to experience , however the stereotypes are probably not perpetuated in an overt and daily basis. But, nonetheless, the stereotypes are still prevalent. Despite the attacks of 9/11, there has been some improvement in terms of perception, however American Pakistanis still have a long way to go.

 

[endymion248]

dude seriously? he is your hero guy like nawaz is your hero

So? Would you rather Altaf is my hero?

I'm sure he is the hero of all bald people :rana

 

[endymion248]

Good to know. You both are the my fav. posters. Even though its fun seeing you guys go at eachother, in the end I want you guys to keep it fun.

And yet you have not explained where your nickname comes from

 

[endymion248]

I agree with Pak-Legend on the control front. I had to spent 1 hour waiting at the airport because I had entered Dubai and Pakistan the year before. And I was born in Germany and 14 at the time. Didn't even have a beard yet

 

[Buffet]

And it's better that way, honestly. Too many violence incitation and hate speeches can go unpunished under 1st amendment.

First amendment has positives and negatives but over all it's positive in long run even if it let's some idiots give borderline hate speech.

If an speaker is proved to be guilty of directly incitement of violence then that's not protected under first amendment. Denial of holocaust won't land up anyone in jail but inciting a crowd to kill others will result in jail time. Problem comes when it's difficult to prove that there is case of incitement of violence.

I will absolutely hate an idea of USA constitution not allowing first amendment. It does have drawbacks but I won't like a hypothetical situation where majority believes in earth being 6000 year old and you can't correct them.

 

[GentleMan]

saadibaba has explained it before.. saad/saadi is his name, and baba from sanju baba. and he likes to wear GAP t-shirts, and has given talks to a large audience..so must be someone on a top level.

 

[Pak-Legend]

You're right but if they sit back and don't act they will suffer in the long run. The blacks of America had to fight for their rights and now are in positions of influence(in certain areas). On a positive note PTI have ignited a fair few of their supporters in the US, hopefully this will set in motion some sort of organised political group to lobby on Pakistan's behalf.

Not all of the Blacks in America are in positions of influence. Many have forgotten their roots and cultural values that they once used to uphold. Instead of following in the footsteps of the generation of influential and remarkable leaders such as Martin Luther King, Jr. and Rosa Parks, some members of the Black community have begun to idolize gangsters and rap artists, who don't act but only speak. What's the point about rapping about political activism, when nobody is going to act upon their words? There are several sections of the Black community that still has lots of work to do in terms of improvement in socio-economic status, integration (freeing themselves from the ghetto), education, and political involvement. As a result, their influence is only mainly in sports, the entertainment industry and not as apparent in politics and education. There are many Black political activists and community social workers that are trying to revive the spirit of change and hope the Black community once had.

The problem, however, with Pakistanis is that they have no framework to begin with and no platform for discussion. There is no concern for the Youth and a complete disregard for the conditions that the future generations will have to encounter.

 

[saadibaba]

And yet you have not explained where your nickname comes from

I wish the idea behind the nick was that dramatic but sadly no. Need to watch that movie though, what was the name again ?

 

[saadibaba]

saadibaba has explained it before.. saad/saadi is his name, and baba from sanju baba. and he likes to wear GAP t-shirts, and has given talks to a large audience..so must be someone on a top level.

I think my cover is blown. The days of anonymity gone.

 

[endymion248]

I will absolutely hate an idea of USA constitution not allowing first amendment. It does have drawbacks but I won't like a hypothetical situation where majority believes in earth being 6000 year old and you can't correct them.

Well, despite the 1st amendement, USA is the heart of creationism while UK or France don't have any 1st amendement and have been subject to liberty of speech and free examination for longer than US.

 

[endymion248]

I wish the idea behind the nick was that dramatic but sadly no. Need to watch that movie though, what was the name again ?

Yubaba from Spirited Away.

I think my cover is blown. The days of anonymity gone.

I couldn't make the connection because Saadi from Saad is unusual nickname among the Pakistanis I know. Anyways, it's cute. Too bad for the Gap T-shirts

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Over 500 comments and no Tanzeel appearance yet? Hehe.

This of course is not my fight (shame that it appears to be a fight at all) but I can expand a bit on my small contributions earlier in the thread. I don't personally know any American Pakistanis so am not in a position to discuss them, but in this thread British Pakistanis are certainly being rendered unfairly.

My city of residence has a very diverse population, and honestly I have only ever met 3 British Pakistanis (in the same single group - they said some deeply nasty things to my friend for no reason) that were the ill-mannered, uneducated and misogynistic example which we are told (by people who don't even live in the UK!) is commonplace, when in fact one should be streetwise enough to realise this trio was the exception that proves the rule: this being that the majority of British Pakistanis, and people in general, are reasonably normal and decent and wish to get on with their lives without negatively affecting others.

So the aforementioned trio should be seen not as evil little brown men, but merely as a walking salvo of horrible louts, not unlike the various pockets of white trash and black lads who mooch about being similarly unpleasant - particularly to young women. These kinds of people are thankfully in a minority in Britain, no matter what the Daily Mail may tell you.

I need this to be heard by the guys who don't live here, because you are being very harsh on the British Pakistanis at the moment, a community which has had to work very hard to achieve a standing in this country and is mostly made up of very sound people; one of my close work friends is a Pakistani Muslim who was raised locally, and he's one of the kindest individuals that I know. So this is just one perspective you are hearing from me, but try and share my respect, I urge you, because I for one wouldn't have a pop at people in America whom I had never encountered.

Peace.

Don't take it too bad that this gem of a post was ignored. As you can see Pakistanis both sides of the Atlantic prefer virtual custard pie fights to indulging in serious debate. Maybe when they read this it might get more attention on the second viewing

 

[endymion248]

Don't take it too bad that this gem of a post was ignored. As you can see Pakistanis both sides of the Atlantic prefer virtual custard pie fights to indulging in serious debate. Maybe when they read this it might get more attention on the second viewing

No, it wasn't enough polemical for us. Have you ever seen a James thread going 9 pages?

 

[saadibaba]

Yubaba from Spirited Away.



I couldn't make the connection because Saadi from Saad is unusual nickname among the Pakistanis I know. Anyways, it's cute. Too bad for the Gap T-shirts

Its might be a little unusual but there was once a Pak drama serial where the hero's name was Saad and his nick was Saadi. As for it being cute, are you being that girl who rejected me. For her cute was codeword for "get off my back you sissy boy"

 

[saadibaba]

Don't take it too bad that this gem of a post was ignored. As you can see Pakistanis both sides of the Atlantic prefer virtual custard pie fights to indulging in serious debate. Maybe when they read this it might get more attention on the second viewing

I read that and totally agree with it but did'nt reply as I didn't know who it was directed at. I thought I was being fair in my arguments so it could not have been directed at me. But yeah, good post as usual from James.

 

[endymion248]

Its might be a little unusual but there was once a Pak drama serial where the hero's name was Saad and his nick was Saadi. As for it being cute, are you being that girl who rejected me. For her cute was codeword for "get off my back you sissy boy"

But, if you didn't make the connection and blushed, when did you say ''Ooooh''?

 

[saadibaba]

Pakistanis have had to go through several additional security checks since the attacks of 9/11 if they want to enter into America - this should have hinted to the fact that there is more regulation and unnecessary suspicion towards Pakistanis (even for those who were born and bred in North America), just because most of them have a Muslim background.

Furthermore, several Pakistanis from the New York Community (about 45,000 out of the estimated 100,000) were either deported or left voluntarily on their behalf (most of them migrated to Canada or back home to Pakistan). The most notable case, being a Princeton graduate, who was deported back to Pakistan for no apparent reason, and no case was ever proved against him.

Don't forget the Arab stereotype and the Terrorist stereotype that Pakistanis have to experience , however the stereotypes are probably not perpetuated in an overt and daily basis. But, nonetheless, the stereotypes are still prevalent. Despite the attacks of 9/11, there has been some improvement in terms of perception, however American Pakistanis still have a long way to go.

Good and Im glad you brought this up.

I personally feel its fine that Paks have to go through extra security. Our citizens are not exactly the shining exmaple of peace and harmony. KSM was found in Pak, Ahmed Shahzad was from Pak. I totally respect US's decision to protect itself and screen us more thoroughly. I have done nothing wrong so why should I be bothered. Yeah, its annoying but we live in different times now.

As for NY community leaving US. Were they illegal. I know some illegal folks who came to US on visit or student visa and then overstayed and got illegal. Pre 911, things were pretty losse in US, post 911 there was more checks on that and some people decided to leave, good for them, they should not have become illegal in the first place. As for legal people leaving, look people leave for a bunch of reasons: family, community etc. Look at our total numbers on the whole. We have doubled our numbers since sept. 11th. Does that speak more volume about the conditions of AmPak in US or a few families leaving.

As for stereotypes, they are just that 'stereotypes'. All AmPaks have a duty to make sure those stereotypes get corrected from our own behaviour and conduct in the community and society as a whole. Things are not as bad as you are making out to be but I guess its a matter of looking at the glass half full or half empty. I am optimistic and see things getting better.

 

[saadibaba]

But, if you didn't make the connection and blushed, when did you say ''Ooooh''?

Later on. I thought it was line hook and sinker after that cute comment. But she hooked up with another guy, not cute from anywhere, more of a brute, very dark too. Anyways, Im over it, she was'nt that big of a deal herself.

 

[endymion248]

I personally feel its fine that Paks have to go through extra security. Our citizens are not exactly the shining exmaple of peace and harmony. KSM was found in Pak, Ahmed Shahzad was from Pak. I totally respect US's decision to protect itself and screen us more thoroughly. I have done nothing wrong so why should I be bothered. Yeah, its annoying but we live in different times now.

The problem is we are not Pakistani citizens and we are not born in Pakistan. Does the fact that your parents are from there or that you went there warrant the extra controls, especially for teenagers?

 

[GentleMan]

i dont mind going through extra security..i fully comply while they put their metal detectors at my groin area. it makes me worried when they dont check you properly..because i want the peace of mind in the flight. here in usa, i see myself as an ambassador of entire subcontinent..so i am extra nice with people..if i enter a shop but dont find the stuff i was looking for..i still buy something so that they dont think this brown guy might be stealing..i give generous tips..so they they think not all browns are stingy..and also give money to panhandlers..and many other things. if there were more brown people like me, we would be loved all across the world.

 

[AfridiRagingBull]

Wo wo wo....easy there buddy !

Less tolerant society leads to isolation, not integration. No one absolutely has to integrate to make money or to get a job. Comes naturally. American society is on the contrary more open to immigrants. And what's wrong with integration. You are making integration sound like its a bad thing.

It can lead to integration. I've seen it happen. It's just a choice. Integration can lead settlers to better high-end jobs. Those people who choose not to often end up working labour and lesser jobs. In a sense you have to integrate to be successful. That's hardly going to make the news. Nothing wrong with integration at all. It's a good thing. Didn't mention that

 

[endymion248]

i dont mind going through extra security..i fully comply while they put their metal detectors at my groin area. it makes me worried when they dont check you properly..because i want the peace of mind in the flight. here in usa, i see myself as an ambassador of entire subcontinent..so i am extra nice with people..if i enter a shop but dont find the stuff i was looking for..i still buy something so that they dont think this brown guy might be stealing..i give generous tips..so they they think not all browns are stingy..and also give money to panhandlers..and many other things. if there were more brown people like me, we would be loved all across the world.

I don't think you understand. It's not about extra security that everyone goes through, it's about immigration taking you apart for extra-inspection.

And even if you have gone through that, your country doesn't have visa deals with the US and their citizens don't go through yours with minimal harassement thanks to these deals.

 

[AfridiRagingBull]

i dont mind going through extra security..i fully comply while they put their metal detectors at my groin area. it makes me worried when they dont check you properly..because i want the peace of mind in the flight. here in usa, i see myself as an ambassador of entire subcontinent..so i am extra nice with people..if i enter a shop but dont find the stuff i was looking for..i still buy something so that they dont think this brown guy might be stealing..i give generous tips..so they they think not all browns are stingy..and also give money to panhandlers..and many other things. if there were more brown people like me, we would be loved all across the world.

lol. Admirable, good attitude.

 

[saadibaba]

The problem is we are not Pakistani citizens and we are not born in Pakistan. Does the fact that your parents are from there or that you went there warrant the extra controls, especially for teenagers?

Some of it is silly, I admit. Especially when I see them padding a kid or selecting a disable old white lady for extra screening cause she was the 20th person in the line, I wish in those times that they pad me, take me away for special screening, but they don't, never have that done to me. But even if it happens to parents or kids, what's the big deal, why should we have a chip on our shoulders all the time. These screenings are for our family's good too. I don't want some nut case going through and causing harm to my family.

 

[endymion248]

Some of it is silly, I admit. Especially when I see them padding a kid or selecting a disable old white lady for extra screening cause she was the 20th person in the line, I wish in those times that they pad me, take me away for special screening, but they don't, never have that done to me. But even if it happens to parents or kids, what's the big deal, why should we have a chip on our shoulders all the time. These screenings are for our family's good too. I don't want some nut case going through and causing harm to my family.

Some nutcase could hide weapon with his kid. I don't mind the (random or not) pre-boarding controls.

 

[GentleMan]

white americans say that they hate the TSA themselves..in fact compared to them I am pro TSA.

 

[Buffet]

The problem is we are not Pakistani citizens and we are not born in Pakistan. Does the fact that your parents are from there or that you went there warrant the extra controls, especially for teenagers?

I think in recent past there are decent number of cases are reported where non-Pakistani citizens visited Pakistan and went through some kind of training with terrorist organizations. That can happen any place but with Pakistan it was relatively disproportionate number and that might have lead to an extra attention. Terrorist organizations mostly target resident Pakistani teenagers from poor families for suicide bombing so not sure what's the logic of focusing on teens who are just visiting there.

You might be surprised but many PPers in past have fully supported killings over insult of Prophet. I am not going to look it up for quote but some even commented that they should be reported to authority. They were not resident Pakistani. I will leave you to guess their nationality.

Anyway, this is not a good way to deal with situation because it's not too difficult for terrorist organizations to recruit from totally different background. If you focus more on certain segments then it will be easy to miss a potential threats coming form different segments. This profiling is useless in my opinion. I do understand why it is happening but it's pretty useless in eliminating threats.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

white americans say that they hate the TSA themselves..in fact compared to them I am pro TSA.

That's how it should be though. The whites are home grown Americans so for them it's an inconvenient waste of time of an American citizen. I would feel the same at such treatment in the UK, but as it happens I've never had any problem getting through security checks. You as an immigrant though should be more than happy to go through this. As an outsider, the onus is on you to fit in with American needs.

 

[AfridiRagingBull]

100% False statement. Constitution of US has more freedom of expression and speech than UK. UK doesn't have anything like first amendment.




I thought most posters were arguing about how UK Pakistani are more integrated by being in sports, movies , politics etc.

That maybe but I mean practised by the people, media etc. I'll stick my neck out and say you can get away with more in Britain. I mean getting away with speaking your mind. I said a less tolerant society CAN lead to integration and don't forget It's also choice. In the UK you can integrate or settle in fairly large minority communities and areas, especially Pakistanis. But my point is Britain is MORE tolerant than the US. Both countries cultures clash with a Pakistanis obviously. It's just there is less anti -Muslim /Pakistani sentiment in Britain. Although it is worse now than 15-20 years ago.

 

[GentleMan]

no Captain, i dont think like that..i want strict checking in my home country too.. because that gives me peace of mind..when they dont ask me to take off my shoes, i insist.. i hate boarding a flight where there is no proper checking. nothing to do with being in USA.. if anything I like being in USA compared to my home country because they do some strict checking here.

 

[saadibaba]

I don't think you understand. It's not about extra security that everyone goes through, it's about immigration taking you apart for extra-inspection.

And even if you have gone through that, your country doesn't have visa deals with the US and their citizens don't go through yours with minimal harassement thanks to these deals.

We should look around us before asking for such equal measures. Pakistan is bankrupt, mostly relies on US and its affiliates to bankroll our economy and army needs. We can stop all Americans from coming in Pakistan but we are going to suffer more from it than them.

 

[saadibaba]

Some nutcase could hide weapon with his kid. I don't mind the (random or not) pre-boarding controls.

Like I said, its a part of today's world now. Also it's impartial in a way that all Paks even Indians with Pak last names go through the same interrogation procedure (SRK), unlike our own country where VIP culture is everywhere.

 

[endymion248]

We should look around us before asking for such equal measures. Pakistan is bankrupt, mostly relies on US and its affiliates to bankroll our economy and army needs. We can stop all Americans from coming in Pakistan but we are going to suffer more from it than them.

Again, I am not talking about Pakistan but rather Pakistanis who were born and raised ESTA countries (visa exemption). I know visa exemption doesn't warrant you a no-security go but I have been to US a lot and it always make me cringe to lose an hour because of interrogation as opposed to non-pakistani friends.

 

[MC]

Where are the US Pakistanis in public life? TV? Media? Film? Sport? If they are so successful you'd have expected them to have a far larger public presence, but I'm struggling to see it. Despite the fact that they are so prosperous it seems that much less prosperous groups like the blacks and hispanics are far more visible as part of everyday American life. Thoughts on this?

What's the total percentage their overall population compare to Pakistanis? Exactly! While we are at it, the blacks and Hispanics also dominate the US media for all sorts of wrong reasons, just like Pakistanis do over here in UK but fortunately this is something we hardly see with the American Pakistanis. Having handful of media personalities is hardly a measurement of success, while it is an established fact that US Pakistanis as a community enjoy considerably high level of financial security, social progress and standards of living compare to African American and Hispanic communities.

Some of you are confusing things. The whole purpose of this thread is that American Pakistanis are massively successful for a small minority group in a huge country. Its totally baseless to compare media presence of blacks and Hispanics against such a tiny and scattered community. Besides, history would tell us that there's a whole different and rather sad narrative as to why and how blacks in US came to dominate entertainment and sports. And why they compelled to form their identity and sense of community around music and so on. Its nothing to be proud of. The UK Pakistanis may have more in common with US blacks and Latinos in terms of ghettoization, poverty, discrimination and chip on the shoulder mentality than US Paks who fall into a totally different category of their own.

Being a Pakistani and having a fairly sound knowledge about Pakistani culture, I would image that you perhaps know that having a career in the entertainment industry or sport is seriously discouraged and frowned upon in our culture, especially within the middle class which is exactly the group that vast majority of the American Pakistanis fall under. I mean forget about American Pakistanis, I have seen some drop dead gorgeous girls, seemingly very 'liberal' and secular (yeah before someone pulls a religious card) on the streets of Lahore who could easily give all Indian top actresses a run for their money, but those girls would never ever dare consider taking modelling or acting as a profession. Instead they'd rather get into a top medical or design college. The same is the case with American Pakistanis, the parents and the kids themselves are more interested in getting into medical, law, design, engineering schools and having a proper professional career than struggling for glamour and fame.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Some of it is silly, I admit. Especially when I see them padding a kid or selecting a disable old white lady for extra screening cause she was the 20th person in the line, I wish in those times that they pad me, take me away for special screening, but they don't, never have that done to me. But even if it happens to parents or kids, what's the big deal, why should we have a chip on our shoulders all the time. These screenings are for our family's good too. I don't want some nut case going through and causing harm to my family.

Wow, so you would have no issue with a strange adult feeling your child?

My 5th Grader Was Groped By TSA

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belkin/airport-security-pat-downs_b_1432606.html

Earlier you wrote it's o.k to target Pakistani's because of KSM. Do you know the majority of terrorist plots in the US in the last decade are not by Pakistani's. You probably do. :uncletom

 

[saadibaba]

Again, I am not talking about Pakistan but rather Pakistanis who were born and raised ESTA countries (visa exemption). I know visa exemption doesn't warrant you a no-security go but I have been to US a lot and it always make me cringe to lose an hour because of interrogation as opposed to non-pakistani friends.

The system is not perfect and I agreed with you earlier that it is silly at times. But doesn't look like its going to get any better anytime soon, at least as long as Pak stays in the news for terror related activities.

 

[Buffet]

Do you know the majority of terrorist plots in the US in the last decade are not by Pakistani's.

There are decent number of cases all over the world where terrorists went to Pakistan for training. I think that's the main reason for Pakistani connection or visit to Pakistan getting an extra attention.

 

[saadibaba]

Wow, so you would have no issue with a strange adult feeling your child?



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belkin/airport-security-pat-downs_b_1432606.html

Earlier you wrote it's o.k to target Pakistani's because of KSM. Do you know the majority of terrorist plots in the US in the last decade are not by Pakistani's. You probably do. :uncletom

You think calling me Uncle Tom is going to make me angry or something. On the contrary. US has given me education and employment, I get paid very well, it's given me security and freedom to practice my religion and not to practice any religion if I want, it's given me rights, it's given me respect and love. I am a better person since I have moved here, more open minded, more liberal in my views and less judgmental. I've learned a lot. I don't see myself narrowed down to being only a Muslim or Pak, here I feel like I'm a citizen of the world. If that makes me an Uncle Tom than sure, proud to be one.

 

[saadibaba]

What's the total percentage their overall population compare to Pakistanis? Exactly! While we are at it, the blacks and Hispanics also dominate the US media for all sorts of wrong reasons, just like Pakistanis do over here in UK but fortunately this is something we hardly see with the American Pakistanis. Having handful of media personalities is hardly a measurement of success, while it is an established fact that US Pakistanis as a community enjoy considerably high level of financial security, social progress and standards of living compare to African American and Hispanic communities.

Some of you are confusing things. The whole purpose of this thread is that American Pakistanis are massively successful for a small minority group in a huge country. Its totally baseless to compare media presence of blacks and Hispanics against such a tiny and scattered community. Besides, history would tell us that there's a whole different and rather sad narrative as to why and how blacks in US came to dominate entertainment and sports. And why they compelled to form their identity and sense of community around music and so on. The UK Pakistanis may have more in common with US blacks and Latinos in terms of ghettoization, poverty, discrimination and chip on the shoulder mentality but the American Paks fall in a totally different category of their own.

Being a Pakistani and having a fairly sound knowledge about Pakistani culture, I would image that you perhaps know that having a career in the entertainment industry or sport is seriously discouraged and frowned upon in our culture, especially within the middle class which is exactly the group that vast majority of the American Pakistanis fall under. I mean forget about American Pakistanis, I have seen some drop dead gorgeous girls, seemingly very 'liberal' and secular (yeah before someone pulls a religious card) on the streets of Lahore who could easily give all Indian top actresses a run for their money, but those girls would never ever dare consider stepping into modelling or acting as a profession. Instead they'd rather get into a top medical or design college. The same is the case with American Pakistanis, the parents and the kids themselves more interested in getting into medical, law, design, engineering schools and having a proper professional career than struggling for glamour and fame.

Top post. Well said.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You think calling me Uncle Tom is going to make me angry or something. On the contrary. US has given me education and employment, I get paid very well, it's given me security and freedom to practice my religion and not to practice any religion if I want, it's given me rights, it's given me respect and love. I am a better person since I have moved here, more open minded, more liberal in my views and less judgmental. I've learned a lot. I don't see myself narrowed down to being only a Muslim or Pak, here I feel like I'm a citizen of the world. If that makes me an Uncle Tom than sure, proud to be one.

Well if you allow your young children to be groped by strangers then you're going a bit too far in your patriotic love for your new homeland. I don't call this open minded and liberal but subservient and close minded.

I;ve lived in the UK all my life so can't and never made the personal choice to move here but I think I would have been the same person, achieving similar success in Pakistan too. This is an interesting observation, a lot of the so called liberals immigrants feel their new land is the land of milk and honey and everything they have is down to the star and stripes. I dont think you are even an American because you don't sound like one being a recent immigrant. A person is/belongs to an national identity by what he sounds like. I would be ashamed to have this attitude but everyone to their own.

 

[shan]

Sorry KKWC but i have to side with American Pakistanis (not SaiBaba, he is to judemental and not american anyway). You cant be serious when you say that you could have archived similar life style and success in Pakistan.

Not only you could have been completly different person and with different mindset but also the opportunities in Pakistan are only for lucky few. So dont take everything what UK have given you for granted. You guys face less discrimination then American Pakistanis but still whine more.

 

[saadibaba]

Well if you allow your young children to be groped by strangers then you're going a bit too far in your patriotic love for your new homeland. I don't call this open minded and liberal but subservient and close minded.

I;ve lived in the UK all my life so can't and never made the personal choice to move here but I think I would have been the same person, achieving similar success in Pakistan too. This is an interesting observation, a lot of the so called liberals immigrants feel their new land is the land of milk and honey and everything they have is down to the star and stripes. I dont think you are even an American because you don't sound like one being a recent immigrant. A person is/belongs to an national identity by what he sounds like. I would be ashamed to have this attitude but everyone to their own.

I responded to the groping kids comment earlier by calling it unnecessary and silly. Case closed. TSA got in hot mess after YouTube videos of these kind of things went in the media, they since have gotten better, at least as far as I know.

As for being an American. I'm not a citizen yet but been here a while and call it home. Again, you are entitled to your opinion of what constitutes patriotism and national identity and what not, I just see it very differently from you. (Dah, isn't it obvious) But obviously what to expect from a person who has very malignant views about US on the whole anyways. I don't think I will ever be able to satisfy your criteria based on your opinion of US. So yeah, everyone to their own.

 

[Buffet]

I;ve lived in the UK all my life so can't and never made the personal choice to move here but I think I would have been the same person, achieving similar success in Pakistan too.

Just quoting but reply is not directed at you.

I have this argument with several people in US. They feel that they achieved all the success due to their hard work and owe nothing to society around them. So they should not pay higher tax and so on... Point is, if Buffett was born in Afghanistan then most likely he would have taken up a gun as child. Same person with same skill but result will be drastically different due to having a different environment around them. Think about a situation where a kid is born in some African country where child is forced to carry a gun and kill. Yes, hard work and skill is necessary but without a right environment you are going to get a different outcome.

If Buffett was born as female or black , he would have had lot less opportunity even in US. Environment was lot different on those times. If he was born in Africa 20,000 years ago then most likely he would have been a nice lunch for a lion due to not able to run fast. He is wired in certain way which allows him to do very well in current environment. Environment around us has a huge role in shaping us. Some people do very well despite getting a bad deal but better environment provides higher odds for success with same hard work/skills.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sorry KKWC but i have to side with American Pakistanis (not SaiBaba, he is to judemental and not american anyway). You cant be serious when you say that you could have archived similar life style and success in Pakistan.

Not only you could have been completly different person and with different mindset but also the opportunities in Pakistan are only for lucky few. So dont take everything what UK have given you for granted. You guys face less discrimination then American Pakistanis but still whine more.

You misunderstood. I totally appreciate everything I have got in the UK that's why I wouldn't move but it's all about circumstances and what you see as success. I have plenty of family in Pakistan who decided not to move and are successful. As an example joining the armed forces and defending the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is success and honour, it's not about eating beefburgers and watching the simpsons.

 

[cricketworm]

Just quoting but reply is not directed at you.

I have this argument with several people in US. They feel that they achieved all the success due to their hard work and owe nothing to society around them. So they should not pay higher tax and so on... Point is, if Buffett was born in Afghanistan then most likely he would have taken up a gun as child. Same person with same skill but result will be drastically different due to having a different environment around them. Think about a situation where a kid is born in some African country where child is forced to carry a gun and kill. Yes, hard work and skill is necessary but without a right environment you are going to get a different outcome.

If Buffett was born as female or black , he would have had lot less opportunity even in US. Environment was lot different on those times. If he was born in Africa 20,000 years ago then most likely he would have been a nice lunch for a lion due to not able to run fast. He is wired in certain way which allows him to do very well in current environment. Environment around us has a huge role in shaping us. Some people do very well despite getting a bad deal but better environment provides higher odds for success with same hard work/skills.

Top post, that's why I always have respect for whatever country I live in! Also never misses opportunity to thank my creators (my parents), ethnicity and whole environment of my household. I just have to look around and see how much struggle and how impossible it was going to be for me if I was in certain part of the world or being brought up under certain kind of family.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I responded to the groping kids comment earlier by calling it unnecessary and silly. Case closed. TSA got in hot mess after YouTube videos of these kind of things went in the media, they since have gotten better, at least as far as I know.

As for being an American. I'm not a citizen yet but been here a while and call it home. Again, you are entitled to your opinion of what constitutes patriotism and national identity and what not, I just see it very differently from you. (Dah, isn't it obvious) But obviously what to expect from a person who has very malignant views about US on the whole anyways. I don't think I will ever be able to satisfy your criteria based on your opinion of US. So yeah, everyone to their own.

If one has chosen to live the secular liberal life it's fine. The problem is when you start losing your identity and become a subservient. American Pakistani's haven't stood up against discrimination esp in the last 10 years in the war of terror but as you have evidently shown have often agreed with such policies even to their own determent. It is a strange kind of attitude which can only be described as subservient, thus not very successful. There is no point adding the Pakistani to the American, even if there is an accent present.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Just quoting but reply is not directed at you.

I have this argument with several people in US. They feel that they achieved all the success due to their hard work and owe nothing to society around them. So they should not pay higher tax and so on... Point is, if Buffett was born in Afghanistan then most likely he would have taken up a gun as child. Same person with same skill but result will be drastically different due to having a different environment around them. Think about a situation where a kid is born in some African country where child is forced to carry a gun and kill. Yes, hard work and skill is necessary but without a right environment you are going to get a different outcome.

If Buffett was born as female or black , he would have had lot less opportunity even in US. Environment was lot different on those times. If he was born in Africa 20,000 years ago then most likely he would have been a nice lunch for a lion due to not able to run fast. He is wired in certain way which allows him to do very well in current environment. Environment around us has a huge role in shaping us. Some people do very well despite getting a bad deal but better environment provides higher odds for success with same hard work/skills.

Common sense, what;s your point? On the other hand there are immigrants who have been successful before immigrating. Not everyone who decides to move is on the verge of famine. It;s about circumstances which is why generalising why people move is a bit daft.

 

[Buffet]

Common sense, what;s your point? On the other hand there are immigrants who have been successful before immigrating. Not everyone who decides to move is on the verge of famine. It;s about circumstances which is why generalising why people move is a bit daft.

On average, better environment gives you better chance in your life.There will be always cases where people might have been successful in harsher environment but those are exception not norm.

Also, my point was not specific to only immigration but it applies there as well. Since you were claiming that you would have had similar success irrespective of environment so I just quoted your post. Chance of having similar success is not bright if environment ends up being drastically different for same person with same capability. . Saying , successful in their own way is changing the goal post, that's not close to having similar success. Nothing to add here.

 

[GentleMan]

you can easily look at the posts in a thread and guess whether the poster is from UK or USA...USA ones speak their mind but dont bang their head against the wall and never form an online cabal..but UK posters well...

 

[saadibaba]

If one has chosen to live the secular liberal life it's fine. The problem is when you start losing your identity and become a subservient. American Pakistani's haven't stood up against discrimination esp in the last 10 years in the war of terror but as you have evidently shown have often agreed with such policies even to their own determent. It is a strange kind of attitude which can only be described as subservient, thus not very successful. There is no point adding the Pakistani to the American, even if there is an accent present.

I think if someone told KSM or any other religious extremist my views on US, he will probably also call me 'subservient'. So no shame in being called subservient by someone like you too. Also, I don't need a certificate of approval from you or anyone else whether I can be called a Pakistani or a Muslim or not. This attitude just shows your own intolerant and ignorant views and opinions on all matters.

 

[saadibaba]

You misunderstood. I totally appreciate everything I have got in the UK that's why I wouldn't move but it's all about circumstances and what you see as success. I have plenty of family in Pakistan who decided not to move and are successful. As an example joining the armed forces and defending the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is success and honour, it's not about eating beefburgers and watching the simpsons.

Guess who the chief of the armed forces of the 'Islamic' republic of Pakistan met yesterday in Jordan, the Secretary of State from the land of beef burger eaters and Simpson watchers. The same COAS who earlier have asked for more drone support from the US per wiki leaks.

 

[Bilbo]

Pakistanis who move to North America are on the whole a lot more educated than those who moved to UK

Mostly on west coast,

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What's the total percentage their overall population compare to Pakistanis? Exactly! While we are at it, the blacks and Hispanics also dominate the US media for all sorts of wrong reasons, just like Pakistanis do over here in UK but fortunately this is something we hardly see with the American Pakistanis. Having handful of media personalities is hardly a measurement of success, while it is an established fact that US Pakistanis as a community enjoy considerably high level of financial security, social progress and standards of living compare to African American and Hispanic communities.

Some of you are confusing things. The whole purpose of this thread is that American Pakistanis are massively successful for a small minority group in a huge country. Its totally baseless to compare media presence of blacks and Hispanics against such a tiny and scattered community. Besides, history would tell us that there's a whole different and rather sad narrative as to why and how blacks in US came to dominate entertainment and sports. And why they compelled to form their identity and sense of community around music and so on. Its nothing to be proud of. The UK Pakistanis may have more in common with US blacks and Latinos in terms of ghettoization, poverty, discrimination and chip on the shoulder mentality than US Paks who fall into a totally different category of their own.

Being a Pakistani and having a fairly sound knowledge about Pakistani culture, I would image that you perhaps know that having a career in the entertainment industry or sport is seriously discouraged and frowned upon in our culture, especially within the middle class which is exactly the group that vast majority of the American Pakistanis fall under. I mean forget about American Pakistanis, I have seen some drop dead gorgeous girls, seemingly very 'liberal' and secular (yeah before someone pulls a religious card) on the streets of Lahore who could easily give all Indian top actresses a run for their money, but those girls would never ever dare consider taking modelling or acting as a profession. Instead they'd rather get into a top medical or design college. The same is the case with American Pakistanis, the parents and the kids themselves are more interested in getting into medical, law, design, engineering schools and having a proper professional career than struggling for glamour and fame.

But top professions aren't closed to Hispanics, whites or blacks, they are also represented in those fields. It might surprise a few to hear that BritPaks also have significant numbers represented in these areas despite the ignorant assumptions here. Yes there is an underclass, but that's similar to other ethnicities in the UK, it's part and parcel of being a free society .Entertainment and sport are a massive driving forceacross the globe, one just has to look at how Man Utd has created a golden goose in Asia.

On an individual level, the American Pakistanis might be doing well, but as a collective ethnic group they are invisible. They might as well be Sri Lankans.

 

[GentleMan]

it is like saying on an individual level tigers might be doing well..but a herd of sheep is more visible. well to each its own.

 

[endymion248]

Or that Pakistanis are more involved in the public sphere and, while doing so, revendicate themselves as BritPak.

While I don't agree with it, one can't deny that a young BritPak is far more likely to identify himself with those successful individuals and try to replicate them, as opposed to a ''lonely tiger'' who will be a British among many british.

Being happy for the success of your community is a concept I never understood but if it can create a heritage, why not?

 

[endymion248]

I think in recent past there are decent number of cases are reported where non-Pakistani citizens visited Pakistan and went through some kind of training with terrorist organizations. That can happen any place but with Pakistan it was relatively disproportionate number and that might have lead to an extra attention. Terrorist organizations mostly target resident Pakistani teenagers from poor families for suicide bombing so not sure what's the logic of focusing on teens who are just visiting there.

You might be surprised but many PPers in past have fully supported killings over insult of Prophet. I am not going to look it up for quote but some even commented that they should be reported to authority. They were not resident Pakistani. I will leave you to guess their nationality.

Anyway, this is not a good way to deal with situation because it's not too difficult for terrorist organizations to recruit from totally different background. If you focus more on certain segments then it will be easy to miss a potential threats coming form different segments. This profiling is useless in my opinion. I do understand why it is happening but it's pretty useless in eliminating threats.

Sorry, I didn't catch the post and I agree with most of it. However, do you have any numbers of British-born citizens involved in terrorism?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

it is like saying on an individual level tigers might be doing well..but a herd of sheep is more visible. well to each its own.

You missed the point. Mature societies will have ethnic representatives across all spheres. So in US, you will get a white underclass, middle class and upper class. I used whites as the sample here to allow desis to look at the issue beyond their ingrained tribal mentality.

This doesn't mean the whites in America are inferior to the AmPak immigrants, it reflects that their community represents all spheres from Presidents to trailer trash. AmPaks at the moment are for the most part immigrants from privileged or highly educated backgrounds. Good for them, but the comparison doesn't mean much.

 

[Buffet]

Sorry, I didn't catch the post and I agree with most of it. However, do you have any numbers of British-born citizens involved in terrorism?

I don't have any numbers but British born citizen going to Pakistan for training have been in news for a while. Some of the recent examples,


"Britons training in Pakistan for UK terror attacks"

"Last week the nine predominantly UK-born men pleaded guilty to terrorist charges. "

"A gang of Al Qa'ida inspired extremists were trying to recruit British radicals for terrorist training in Pakistan, a court heard today."

"Four British Pakistanis and a well- known Muslim convert have been charged with planning terrorist attacks."

"Dart, Mahmood, and Alom are alleged to have travelled to Pakistan for terrorism training"

"Home Office report stated that British nationals were among hundreds of Europeans training or operating in Pakistan."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...aining-in-Pakistan-for-UK-terror-attacks.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-pakistani-terror-training-camps-6648924.html
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012\07\20\story_20-7-2012_pg7_28
http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/26/world/europe/britain-terror-training


Just few examples, there are plenty more. Continuous flow of incidents like this makes life difficult for everyone else who is remotely connected to Pakistan. I only cited examples of British visiting Pakistan for training but there have been reports of German, US and others as well.

Having said all this, I think profiling is not going help here. Terrorists will simply chose different set of people to do same. If our focus is only on people with certain background then we are likely to miss others. Also, this profiling leads to harassment of so many people. I don't think it serves any purpose. But for time being , every intelligence agency in world is going to scrutinize anyone travelling to Pakistan and it's not going to change till situation in Pakistan gets back to normal.

 

[Buffet]

On an individual level, the American Pakistanis might be doing well, but as a collective ethnic group they are invisible.

There is likely to be difference in visibility if you constitute 0.3% as opposed to 3%. Being 8-10 times larger on percentage basis will give you more visibility. When AmPaks reaches to a size then I am sure they will have more visibility as a group. I think that's very understandable & natural. If they grow to 10-15 times of their current population and still have very low visibility in sports, politics etc then criticism is warranted.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think if someone told KSM or any other religious extremist my views on US, he will probably also call me 'subservient'. So no shame in being called subservient by someone like you too. Also, I don't need a certificate of approval from you or anyone else whether I can be called a Pakistani or a Muslim or not. This attitude just shows your own intolerant and ignorant views and opinions on all matters.

lol. You have only provided yet more evidence of your subservient mentality. People who are against American Imperial state terrorism are not extremists but people who oppose the worlds biggest form of terrorism. On the other hand you have wannabe house negro's who even with accents they can't get rid off not only don't understand the reality of the world but become defenders just because they want to be something they never will be. You are not an American but act more Texan than George W Bush. Very funny to read.

Guess who the chief of the armed forces of the 'Islamic' republic of Pakistan met yesterday in Jordan, the Secretary of State from the land of beef burger eaters and Simpson. The same COAS who earlier have asked for more drone support from the US per wiki leaks.

Yes there are corrupt elements but I was referring to the ordinary solider risking his life for the Islamic Republic, something which would never consider as you prefer to live in some ranch in Texas thinking you're alwhite, in the land of the free and brave. lol

 

[Buffet]

ordinary solider risking his life for the Islamic Republic

Which Islamic republic? Pakistan is far from being a Islamic republic. I have not seen many who feel proud for this kind of Islamic republic. You can say that they are risking their life for country then it's fine. But that's their job and they get paid for that. Now days , almost every army in world is filled with people who don't have better options so they chose army. Not everyone but that's the majority.

 

[ElRaja]

There is likely to be difference in visibility if you constitute 0.3% as opposed to 3%. Being 8-10 times larger on percentage basis will give you more visibility. When AmPaks reaches to a size then I am sure they will have more visibility as a group. I think that's very understandable & natural. If they grow to 10-15 times of their current population and still have very low visibility in sports, politics etc then criticism is warranted.

i think what rishwat was getting at was if there was anyone ampak who could be considered easily recognisable to an average american...

here i can think of a few guys, amir khan and james caan, zayn from that boy band, maybe mishal hussain,nearly all my non pakistani mates would know about at least one or two of them.