Can Pakistan-India enjoy the best possible neighborly relations once Kashmir dispute is resolved?

[Savak]

So it seems you believe that India is the main driving force for hostile relations. That would make sense, they are the premier power in the region, they should be able to dictate neighbourly relations. Glad you agree with me over English August.

Not really, China is the premier power in the region, not India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not really, China is the premier power in the region, not India.

I meant South Asia.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Convenient pivot there.

First you talk nonsense, when exposed are now running back to "thread title".

Facts are an inconvenient thing!

lol. What kind of response is this?

Let me help you.

Regardless of Kashmir India has anti-Muslims, far right Hindutva extremists. You dont need to be Einstein to realise they wont want good relations with Pakistan because of their ideology.

 

[Traveller55]

Pakistan and India can be friends- but it won't happen until the people of India and Paksitan, en-masse, get rich and educated, like the Europeans and start abandoning their religions. It can happen ( and i'd love to see that happen personally) but best case scenario is another 100 years at the very least, for the conflicting religions to die out/start losing appeal massively.

 

[jeetu]

It will take 100 years after Kashmir and other major issues are solved.

 

[English August]

Well that's a possibility, but that means a small country that hasn't been around for even a century is pulling the strings in the region. It doesn't say much for India's influence or power in that part of the world. Can you imagine the USA being bossed and outflanked by it's American neighbours?

No, it doesn't mean any of that. But you're welcome to continue trolling (which is your primary objective ... not that there is anything wrong with trolling!). All it means is Pak has a nuisance value in the region. It's easier for a dictatorship that isn't answerable to its people to create nuisance for decades without facing any consequence. Only in a country like Pak can the deep state do what it's been doing for last 40+ years. Your generals and their cronies are living like kings and don't answer to anyone. Looks like your population is okay with that.

No one ever compared India to the US, so if you're going to troll, you'll have to try harder!

 

[English August]

lol. What kind of response is this?

Let me help you.

Regardless of Kashmir India has anti-Muslims, far right Hindutva extremists. You dont need to be Einstein to realise they wont want good relations with Pakistan because of their ideology.

You seem to "lol" a lot (like a village simpleton). Looks like it's you who needs help!

Let me try one more time. India has perfectly fine relationship with many Muslim-dominated countries irrespective of the govt. in the center (Congress, BJP, ...). India's foreign-policy isn't dictated by religions of any kind. It gets along just fine with many Christian, Muslim and Buddhist-dominated countries.

The reason it doesn't get along with Pak is because Pak openly sponsors terrorism against India (I'm not saying it, your past rulers have said so openly). There is no other reason. Being Muslim or Hindu doesn't have anything to do with it.

See, that's wasn't that hard, was it?

PS: Einstein was a Jew. Are you seriously suggesting that a Jew can be a genius?! Really? What happened to the Zionist conspiracy you people cry about every day?

 

[akki]

lol. What kind of response is this?

Let me help you.

Regardless of Kashmir India has anti-Muslims, far right Hindutva extremists. You dont need to be Einstein to realise they wont want good relations with Pakistan because of their ideology.

I dnt blame you guys. Your whole education since birth revolves around islam , religion and india whereas we in india are hardly ever taught about pakistan in schools and we have never have more than one chapter on religion in school and that too in moral science and that too chapter is about all gods are one..means secularism and space for all religions.
Unfortunately your defination of secularism is sharia law which has to be implemented and all other religions should have no place in constitution as in all muslim countries. So we dnt need to learn secularism or religion from you guys definately. we know what we are..And i cant understand one thing indian muslims dnt give a damn to you guys and have insulted you so many times. Still dnt knw why you care so much about them.
I was watching your shows and so called expert said india still has quotas 60 percent for HIGHER CASTES in education ,jobs and all.but it is opposite. Their is quotas for lower castes everywhere ,not higher castes and its definately not 60 percent. I was like why do they all anpads experts give always wrong information to their awaam. Roji roti ispe chati.propaganda of highest level.And there are many many more examples .
I can understand they need to do this propaganda to justify the existence of pakistan which became reality in 1947 on the very thought of seperate country for muslims. Which india rejected.
We should in india also do whatever is good for country.modi need to be strict and have uniform laws in india and no more pleasing of any community and have logical decisions ,not emotional. We dnt care about what an islamic republic judging india about secularism.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No, it doesn't mean any of that. But you're welcome to continue trolling (which is your primary objective ... not that there is anything wrong with trolling!). All it means is Pak has a nuisance value in the region. It's easier for a dictatorship that isn't answerable to its people to create nuisance for decades without facing any consequence. Only in a country like Pak can the deep state do what it's been doing for last 40+ years. Your generals and their cronies are living like kings and don't answer to anyone. Looks like your population is okay with that.

No one ever compared India to the US, so if you're going to troll, you'll have to try harder!

I would say if you are going to accuse someone else of trolling, then at least make sure you aren't building your whole argument on some fanciful theory that your neighbour and rival country is concocting some deep state conspiracy to be a nuisance to India. Can you see how my argument looks a lot less like trolling than your version? I am giving your country some credit for being a regional power player, and thus in a real position to dictate neigbourly relations. Yet I am the one being accused of trolling. LOL.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You seem to "lol" a lot (like a village simpleton). Looks like it's you who needs help!

Let me try one more time. India has perfectly fine relationship with many Muslim-dominated countries irrespective of the govt. in the center (Congress, BJP, ...). India's foreign-policy isn't dictated by religions of any kind. It gets along just fine with many Christian, Muslim and Buddhist-dominated countries.

The reason it doesn't get along with Pak is because Pak openly sponsors terrorism against India (I'm not saying it, your past rulers have said so openly). There is no other reason. Being Muslim or Hindu doesn't have anything to do with it.

See, that's wasn't that hard, was it?

PS: Einstein was a Jew. Are you seriously suggesting that a Jew can be a genius?! Really? What happened to the Zionist conspiracy you people cry about every day?

You have laugh at some of the responses.

Those relationships were long standing before you voted in religous nutcases. These extremists have shown through their speeches and policies they are anti-Muslim.

You can keep crying about Pakistan sending terrorists to India but your own state is a terrorist state with it's actions in Kashmir and is now using Afghanistan to sponsor terrorism. Pak has your spy who has confessed to this.

Imo I think the Hindutva extremists cannot get over history. It's time for them to accept Muslims came and ruled for many years. It's a great part of your history, be proud of it.

 

[English August]

I would say if you are going to accuse someone else of trolling, then at least make sure you aren't building your whole argument on some fanciful theory that your neighbour and rival country is concocting some deep state conspiracy to be a nuisance to India. Can you see how my argument looks a lot less like trolling than your version? I am giving your country some credit for being a regional power player, and thus in a real position to dictate neigbourly relations. Yet I am the one being accused of trolling. LOL.

Looks like you're catching the LOL-ing decease from KingKhanWC!

That Pak sponsors terrorism against India as an instrument of its (deep) state policy isn't some random theory being proposed by a poster in PP. It's a fact that's acknowledged by your past rulers and their minions. I'll let you youtube Musharraf's interviews if you want to LOL some more. That's your homework.

 

[English August]

You have laugh at some of the responses.

Those relationships were long standing before you voted in religous nutcases. These extremists have shown through their speeches and policies they are anti-Muslim.

You can keep crying about Pakistan sending terrorists to India but your own state is a terrorist state with it's actions in Kashmir and is now using Afghanistan to sponsor terrorism. Pak has your spy who has confessed to this.

Imo I think the Hindutva extremists cannot get over history. It's time for them to accept Muslims came and ruled for many years. It's a great part of your history, be proud of it.

What does Muslims ruling undivided Hindustan have anything to do post-partition India or Pakistan and their respective foreign policies?

To re-iterate, India's foreign policy isn't decided based on random decisions taken by the current PM / Foreign Minister. It's a well thought-through concept that finds broad alignment cutting across party lines and largely stays consistent election after election. This is how things work in a mature democracy. But then you wouldn't know anything about a mature democracy, would you?!

 

[KingKhanWC]

What does Muslims ruling undivided Hindustan have anything to do post-partition India or Pakistan and their respective foreign policies?

To re-iterate, India's foreign policy isn't decided based on random decisions taken by the current PM / Foreign Minister. It's a well thought-through concept that finds broad alignment cutting across party lines and largely stays consistent election after election. This is how things work in a mature democracy. But then you wouldn't know anything about a mature democracy, would you?!

The BJP extremists are ashmed of their past and wish it was wiped clean from Indian history. Read what your friend said about the Taj Mahal.

India is no democracy, it's just claims to be one. Sadly your policies are based on Hindutva religious extremist ideology.

 

[English August]

The BJP extremists are ashmed of their past and wish it was wiped clean from Indian history. Read what your friend said about the Taj Mahal.

India is no democracy, it's just claims to be one. Sadly your policies are based on Hindutva religious extremist ideology.

I do not have friends in PP, I'm a newcomer here. No idea what you're talking about. (More likely you have no idea of what you're talking about.)

Could you provide me a list of Indian policies that are based on "Hindutva religious extremist ideology" (whatever that means) so we can discuss? Since you said "policy", I'm assuming you'll be able quote liberally from the Indian constitution and / or Indian Penal Code (IPC). Both are available online.

 

[CanadianG00se]

I do not have friends in PP, I'm a newcomer here. No idea what you're talking about. (More likely you have no idea of what you're talking about.)

Could you provide me a list of Indian policies that are based on "Hindutva religious extremist ideology" (whatever that means) so we can discuss? Since you said "policy", I'm assuming you'll be able quote liberally from the Indian constitution and / or Indian Penal Code (IPC). Both are available online.

According to PP experts Indian muslims are secondary citizens, Indian laws are based on Hindu ideology, and India is not a democratic country. When you ask them to provide source for their claims, well they would come up with some utter nonsense. They seemed to know more about us than we Indians do. LOL

 

[Traveller55]

Yeah, Pakistan being a sponsor of terrorism is a globally recognized fact. Saying 'same to you' to India, is just knee-jerk 'what-about-ism' that rings hollow from a global perspective.

 

[waqar goraya]

According to PP experts Indian muslims are secondary citizens, Indian laws are based on Hindu ideology, and India is not a democratic country. When you ask them to provide source for their claims, well they would come up with some utter nonsense. They seemed to know more about us than we Indians do. LOL

Indian Muslims definitely don't have same political, economic and social characteristics compared to the majority.

 

[CanadianG00se]

Indian Muslims definitely don't have same political, economic and social characteristics compared to the majority.

Another vague response with no proper source to back up the claim. Like I said, only on PP where they seemed to know more about us than we do ourselves.

 

[akki]

Another vague response with no proper source to back up the claim. Like I said, only on PP where they seemed to know more about us than we do ourselves.

We cant blame them . Watch any of there news debate,most of them would always feel pity on indian muslims and even indian other lower classes by stating they are not allowed to get admissions to colleges because higher castes get quotas there and they are not allowed to do job much as well.

And it suits their agenda. They study this sort of things about india since childhood. They are made to learn this.

 

[Traveller55]

Indian Muslims definitely don't have same political, economic and social characteristics compared to the majority.

They have the political charecteristics, especially when you compare in states with significant muslim populations like WB, Kerala, etc. Pretty much the only state where they have a 'decent' muslim representation but are under-represented politically, is UP.

For the rest of the criterias- its largely due to having bigger family sizes and lesser women's workforce participation rates that leads to the gap between the muslims and non-muslims in India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

According to PP experts Indian muslims are secondary citizens, Indian laws are based on Hindu ideology, and India is not a democratic country. When you ask them to provide source for their claims, well they would come up with some utter nonsense. They seemed to know more about us than we Indians do. LOL

LOL. Thanks.

LOL.

 

[CanadianG00se]

We cant blame them . Watch any of there news debate,most of them would always feel pity on indian muslims and even indian other lower classes by stating they are not allowed to get admissions to colleges because higher castes get quotas there and they are not allowed to do job much as well.

And it suits their agenda. They study this sort of things about india since childhood. They are made to learn this.

They cant be so wrong then. I mean i got admission in business college based on two minority quotas, 1st being a family from Gujarat( Gujarati Quota) and 2nd for being a muslim. And you’re spot on about their media feeding them garbage. Here in Toronto, i met few Pakistanis who also shared similar views about Indian muslims.

 

[CanadianG00se]

LOL. Thanks.

LOL.

I sense someone doesn’t have words to counter my argument.

 

[Pakistanian]

According to PP experts Indian muslims are secondary citizens, Indian laws are based on Hindu ideology, and India is not a democratic country. When you ask them to provide source for their claims, well they would come up with some utter nonsense. They seemed to know more about us than we Indians do. LOL

The sources are the beef ban, genocide of Kashmiris, persecution of Sikhs. Just a few nights ago I was listening to evangelical radio down here and there was a white guy talking about the mass killings of Christians in the Indian colony of Orissa.

 

[waqar goraya]

Another vague response with no proper source to back up the claim. Like I said, only on PP where they seemed to know more about us than we do ourselves.

Muslim backwardness is well documented in India, with Modi and RSS the situation is worsening. Only read yesterday that out of 1000 plus BJP MLAs only 4 are Muslim. Similarly, Muslim representation in civil service is well below their population proportion. Also very few top businesses are owned by the Muslims. Not to mention frequent cow vigilantes and lynchings etc.
I am no expert but you get to know these things if you are a regular newspapers reader.

 

[CanadianG00se]

The sources are the beef ban, genocide of Kashmiris, persecution of Sikhs. Just a few nights ago I was listening to evangelical radio down here and there was a white guy talking about the mass killings of Christians in the Indian colony of Orissa.

Even before BJP came to power the beef was never easily available in Mumbai. Heck some muslim restaurant owners had huge sign up stating “ We do not serve beef”. Most of the red meat available in Mumbai is Goat/Lamb, Pork, and Buffalo. And not having beef available doesn’t make us starve to death.

Sikh massacre happned well before I was even born. I can only speak of current affairs, and I dont see any such presecution of Sikhns happening in India recently.

A random White guy talkin trash isn’t exactly the reliable source, is it? Even if for the sake of argument I agree to the claims made by him then I strongly condemned and such atrocities should be stopped. Now, killings of few minorities in one part of India doesnt equate to all minorities in India being oppressed, is it?

Kashmir and its people are different subject and unlike majority I strongly believe they should be allowed to make the decision. If they want freedom from India then it should be respected, similarly if they want to be part of Pakistan then it should be respected as well. However, I strongly object that GoI allows them to buy property in India or move around, but us can’t do the same in Kashmir.

Now, again Im asking you how exactly are “Indian Muslims or Sikhs or Christians secondary citizens of India”

 

[CanadianG00se]

Muslim backwardness is well documented in India, with Modi and RSS the situation is worsening. Only read yesterday that out of 1000 plus BJP MLAs only 4 are Muslim. Similarly, Muslim representation in civil service is well below their population proportion. Also very few top businesses are owned by the Muslims. Not to mention frequent cow vigilantes and lynchings etc.
I am no expert but you get to know these things if you are a regular newspapers reader.

So, BJP having majority of its MLAs as Hindu means Indian muslims are backwards? What logic is that

Your reasonings doesnt prove anything. I simply ask how exactly are Indian muslims not allowed to progress in society. Are they not allowed same schools, colleges, educational instituions that is availbale for majority?

Lynchings were crime against humanity and authorities should take action against culprits. However, 5-6 lynchings means 180 odd Million muslims got oppressed?

Provide me a source or cite a law in Indian constitution where it states “Indian muslims are offically second class”

 

[Pakistanian]

Even before BJP came to power the beef was never easily available in Mumbai. Heck some muslim restaurant owners had huge sign up stating “ We do not serve beef”. Most of the red meat available in Mumbai is Goat/Lamb, Pork, and Buffalo. And not having beef available doesn’t make us starve to death.

Sikh massacre happned well before I was even born. I can only speak of current affairs, and I dont see any such presecution of Sikhns happening in India recently.

A random White guy talkin trash isn’t exactly the reliable source, is it? Even if for the sake of argument I agree to the claims made by him then I strongly condemned and such atrocities should be stopped. Now, killings of few minorities in one part of India doesnt equate to all minorities in India being oppressed, is it?

Kashmir and its people are different subject and unlike majority I strongly believe they should be allowed to make the decision. If they want freedom from India then it should be respected, similarly if they want to be part of Pakistan then it should be respected as well. However, I strongly object that GoI allows them to buy property in India or move around, but us can’t do the same in Kashmir.

Now, again Im asking you how exactly are “Indian Muslims or Sikhs or Christians secondary citizens of India”

Indians base their history off hindu mythology, that asserts them as the primary citizens while the rest are just 3rd grade citizens.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I do not have friends in PP, I'm a newcomer here. No idea what you're talking about. (More likely you have no idea of what you're talking about.)

Could you provide me a list of Indian policies that are based on "Hindutva religious extremist ideology" (whatever that means) so we can discuss? Since you said "policy", I'm assuming you'll be able quote liberally from the Indian constitution and / or Indian Penal Code (IPC). Both are available online.

Read again, when I stated friend, I also added Taj Majal. It's obvious it's you who is confused.

Take a read.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-41635770

Sure, lets start with the beef ban.

 

[waqar goraya]

So, BJP having majority of its MLAs as Hindu means Indian muslims are backwards? What logic is that

Your reasonings doesnt prove anything. I simply ask how exactly are Indian muslims not allowed to progress in society. Are they not allowed same schools, colleges, educational instituions that is availbale for majority?

Lynchings were crime against humanity and authorities should take action against culprits. However, 5-6 lynchings means 180 odd Million muslims got oppressed?

Provide me a source or cite a law in Indian constitution where it states “Indian muslims are offically second class”

This is not in majority-minority sense, 4 out of 1300 is nothing. Now that BJP and MODI enjoy a profound backing in India it tells you a lot about political conditions of Muslims.

Before increase in lynchings, love-jihad incidents, hundreds also died during Gujarat massacres.

Having opportunities does not mean that they have equal opportunities or similar socio-economic conditions. Muslims lag behind the majority, that's quite obvious.

 

[Traveller55]

The sources are the beef ban, genocide of Kashmiris, persecution of Sikhs. Just a few nights ago I was listening to evangelical radio down here and there was a white guy talking about the mass killings of Christians in the Indian colony of Orissa.

Sorry but whats occurring in Kashmir does not qualify as genocide.
Actually, believe it or not, technically, the Pakistani side is closer to genocide of the Kashmiris than Indians are, as the demographics of Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas have been altered significantly, which falls under the ' erasure of the culture of an ethnos/suppression of it'.

As for evangelical talk shows- they are the same talk shows that claim Bill Clinton is an alien, there is a secret tunnel under white house to a pizza shop, etc etc. Better to go with fiction than that type of nonsense and suffice to say, if there really is mass killings in Orissa, Congress would've jumped on it before you can say 'Usain Bolt', as Congress has virtually no presence in Orissa and Orissa is BJP leaning/BJD supports the BJP.

 

[CanadianG00se]

This is not in majority-minority sense, 4 out of 1300 is nothing. Now that BJP and MODI enjoy a profound backing in India it tells you a lot about political conditions of Muslims.

Before increase in lynchings, love-jihad incidents, hundreds also died during Gujarat massacres.

Having opportunities does not mean that they have equal opportunities or similar socio-economic conditions. Muslims lag behind the majority, that's quite obvious.

Muslims lagging behind in what sense, that is exactly im asking you?

 

[CanadianG00se]

Indians base their history off hindu mythology, that asserts them as the primary citizens while the rest are just 3rd grade citizens.

I give up..


Vague accustaions seems to be never ending.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sorry but whats occurring in Kashmir does not qualify as genocide.
Actually, believe it or not, technically, the Pakistani side is closer to genocide of the Kashmiris than Indians are, as the demographics of Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas have been altered significantly, which falls under the ' erasure of the culture of an ethnos/suppression of it'.

As for evangelical talk shows- they are the same talk shows that claim Bill Clinton is an alien, there is a secret tunnel under white house to a pizza shop, etc etc. Better to go with fiction than that type of nonsense and suffice to say, if there really is mass killings in Orissa, Congress would've jumped on it before you can say 'Usain Bolt', as Congress has virtually no presence in Orissa and Orissa is BJP leaning/BJD supports the BJP.

I've read some nonsense in my time but this has to take the biscuit.

Go on prove it. This is should be interesting.

 

[Traveller55]

I've read some nonsense in my time but this has to take the biscuit.

Go on prove it. This is should be interesting.

prove it ??
Go read the definition of genocide by the UN charter. Changing the demographics of a historic region actually falls under genocide, though everyone agrees, its a technicality.

 

[KingKhanWC]

prove it ??
Go read the definition of genocide by the UN charter. Changing the demographics of a historic region actually falls under genocide, though everyone agrees, its a technicality.

According to Oxford.

"The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group."

Now go ahead.

 

[Traveller55]

According to Oxford.

"The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group."

Now go ahead.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

There is precedence of ICJ ruling changing demographics of a region without mandate from the region (applicable to Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas) is corollary to article 2, subsection (e).

 

[KingKhanWC]

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

There is precedence of ICJ ruling changing demographics of a region without mandate from the region (applicable to Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas) is corollary to article 2, subsection (e).

Article 2? It's the important part.

Now please prove your claim.

 

[Traveller55]

Article 2? It's the important part.

Now please prove your claim.

Prove my claim re: what exactly ? That Azad Kashmir has undergone massive demographic change since independence, from having overwhelming majority of kashmiris, to a narrow majority today, with narrow minority of Punjabis + Pashtuns ?

Every Kashmiri knows this and my background, from my mother's side, is Kashmiri.

 

[Traveller55]

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Demographics of Azad Kashmir

 

[KingKhanWC]

Prove my claim re: what exactly ? That Azad Kashmir has undergone massive demographic change since independence, from having overwhelming majority of kashmiris, to a narrow majority today, with narrow minority of Punjabis + Pashtuns ?

Every Kashmiri knows this and my background, from my mother's side, is Kashmiri.

The most important part of Genocide is the killing of innocent people. Life is always the most important factor. Who has done more India or Pakistan in their controlled areas of Kashmir?

 

[Traveller55]

The most important part of Genocide is the killing of innocent people. Life is always the most important factor. Who has done more India or Pakistan in their controlled areas of Kashmir?

Actually the most important part of genocide is killing people with the intent to eliminate the said ethnicity. Not just killing people. Otherwise, every revolution is a genocide, every-time a crime-ridden US city falls apart (like Chicago or Philly), its genocide.

Which is why I said 'technically' Pakistan is more guilty of genocide in Kashmir than India is- neither side is operating with the intent to kill people to eliminate the ethnicity but Pakistan has changed the demographics of the side it controls.

As for who has done more(for Kashmir) - India obviously. Indian Kashmiris have greater rights of self governance than Pakistani Kashmiris do.

If you travel enough in the western world, you will come to realize that those Kashmiris who left for the west right after partition (like my mom's family did), many of them consider India to be a fairer partner to Kashmir than Pakistan. Yes, they refuse to give Kashmir self-determination, but so does Pakistan. But unlike India, Pakistan has brought in outsiders to Kashmir to such an extent that parts of Pakistani Kashmir has become non-Kashmiri.
Atleast in India, they protect the people of Kashmir's right to their own land by not letting any other Indians buy land there.

Not to mention, Indian Kashmir has far more economic opportunities than Pakistani Kashmir does. We are still amazed by how much poorer Pakistani Kashmiris are compared to Indian Kashmiris.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Actually the most important part of genocide is killing people with the intent to eliminate the said ethnicity. Not just killing people. Otherwise, every revolution is a genocide, every-time a crime-ridden US city falls apart (like Chicago or Philly), its genocide.

Which is why I said 'technically' Pakistan is more guilty of genocide in Kashmir than India is- neither side is operating with the intent to kill people to eliminate the ethnicity but Pakistan has changed the demographics of the side it controls.

As for who has done more(for Kashmir) - India obviously. Indian Kashmiris have greater rights of self governance than Pakistani Kashmiris do.

If you travel enough in the western world, you will come to realize that those Kashmiris who left for the west right after partition (like my mom's family did), many of them consider India to be a fairer partner to Kashmir than Pakistan. Yes, they refuse to give Kashmir self-determination, but so does Pakistan. But unlike India, Pakistan has brought in outsiders to Kashmir to such an extent that parts of Pakistani Kashmir has become non-Kashmiri.
Atleast in India, they protect the people of Kashmir's right to their own land by not letting any other Indians buy land there.

Not to mention, Indian Kashmir has far more economic opportunities than Pakistani Kashmir does. We are still amazed by how much poorer Pakistani Kashmiris are compared to Indian Kashmiris.

I've travelled all around the world, probably much more than you.

Genocide is when people are killed. It's not genocide if demographics change, if this was the case every nation on Earth is guilty.

I meant done more in terms of Genocide. And Kashmiri's in occupied India do not have more rights.

Let's keep it simple for you.

Who has killed, raped, tortured and imprisoned more Kashmiris' , India or Pakistan?

 

[Traveller55]

I've travelled all around the world, probably much more than you.

Genocide is when people are killed. It's not genocide if demographics change, if this was the case every nation on Earth is guilty.

Since you don't know me and I don't know you, your empty claims mean nothing. Perhaps with age, you will mature.
And yes, almost every nation is TECHNICALLY guilty of genocide at some point in their history or another.

I meant done more in terms of Genocide. And Kashmiri's in occupied India do not have more rights.

Let's keep it simple for you.

Who has killed, raped, tortured and imprisoned more Kashmiris' , India or Pakistan?

India has. But as I said, they also did not give away Kashmiri land to non-Kashmiris like Pakistan has done. And yes, Indian kashmiris have way more rights than Pakistani Kashmiris. Indian Kashmiris routinely exercise their right to shut down the state. In Paksitan, such action draws extra-judicial killings from the military and nothing comes to a stop.

The way I see it, both India and Pakistan are occupiers of Kashmir, but India has actually given far greater autonomy to Kashmir than Pakistan has.

 

[English August]

Read again, when I stated friend, I also added Taj Majal. It's obvious it's you who is confused.

Take a read.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-41635770

Sure, lets start with the beef ban.

First you say Indian policy is based on Hindutva ideology. When I ask you to prove it, you post a BBC link about Taj Mahal! Are you alright? News for you: BBC is not same as Indian constitution.

And what about the beef ban?

 

[Pakistanian]

Sorry but whats occurring in Kashmir does not qualify as genocide.
Actually, believe it or not, technically, the Pakistani side is closer to genocide of the Kashmiris than Indians are, as the demographics of Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas have been altered significantly, which falls under the ' erasure of the culture of an ethnos/suppression of it'.

As for evangelical talk shows- they are the same talk shows that claim Bill Clinton is an alien, there is a secret tunnel under white house to a pizza shop, etc etc. Better to go with fiction than that type of nonsense and suffice to say, if there really is mass killings in Orissa, Congress would've jumped on it before you can say 'Usain Bolt', as Congress has virtually no presence in Orissa and Orissa is BJP leaning/BJD supports the BJP.

You have no idea what you're talking about lmao, if you knew what ethnicities have been living there since forever then you would know that . Y'all are so funny, you don't know anything about Kashmir yet claim it's an 'integral part' of your country .

 

[Pakistanian]

Actually the most important part of genocide is killing people with the intent to eliminate the said ethnicity. Not just killing people. Otherwise, every revolution is a genocide, every-time a crime-ridden US city falls apart (like Chicago or Philly), its genocide.

Which is why I said 'technically' Pakistan is more guilty of genocide in Kashmir than India is- neither side is operating with the intent to kill people to eliminate the ethnicity but Pakistan has changed the demographics of the side it controls.

As for who has done more(for Kashmir) - India obviously. Indian Kashmiris have greater rights of self governance than Pakistani Kashmiris do.

If you travel enough in the western world, you will come to realize that those Kashmiris who left for the west right after partition (like my mom's family did), many of them consider India to be a fairer partner to Kashmir than Pakistan. Yes, they refuse to give Kashmir self-determination, but so does Pakistan. But unlike India, Pakistan has brought in outsiders to Kashmir to such an extent that parts of Pakistani Kashmir has become non-Kashmiri.
Atleast in India, they protect the people of Kashmir's right to their own land by not letting any other Indians buy land there.

Not to mention, Indian Kashmir has far more economic opportunities than Pakistani Kashmir does. We are still amazed by how much poorer Pakistani Kashmiris are compared to Indian Kashmiris.

You do realize that parts of Pakistani Kashmir is actually called Poonch and they have always been non-Kashmiris That's like me saying that Jammu has been filled with "non-Kashmiris", read a freaking book instead of posting trash.

 

[Pakistanian]

Since you don't know me and I don't know you, your empty claims mean nothing. Perhaps with age, you will mature.
And yes, almost every nation is TECHNICALLY guilty of genocide at some point in their history or another.



India has. But as I said, they also did not give away Kashmiri land to non-Kashmiris like Pakistan has done. And yes, Indian kashmiris have way more rights than Pakistani Kashmiris. Indian Kashmiris routinely exercise their right to shut down the state. In Paksitan, such action draws extra-judicial killings from the military and nothing comes to a stop.

The way I see it, both India and Pakistan are occupiers of Kashmir, but India has actually given far greater autonomy to Kashmir than Pakistan has.

You do realize that people from the rest of Pakistan can't buy land or create settlements in AJK or Gilgit lol. The people there have always been the same and have always spoken the same dialect of Potwari/Dogri since forever .

 

[Traveller55]

You do realize that people from the rest of Pakistan can't buy land or create settlements in AJK or Gilgit lol. The people there have always been the same and have always spoken the same dialect of Potwari/Dogri since forever .

They already have. I havn't personally gone to AJK but some in my extended family have, they have noted how much more the Pathan & Punjabi land-owner presence is, since their days.

 

[Traveller55]

You have no idea what you're talking about lmao, if you knew what ethnicities have been living there since forever then you would know that . Y'all are so funny, you don't know anything about Kashmir yet claim it's an 'integral part' of your country .

Its not my country. Not an Indian or Indian origin person, so try again.

 

[Pakistanian]

Its not my country. Not an Indian or Indian origin person, so try again.

Well certainly aren't from Ajk cause you wouldn't be saying such illinformed things. If you're really from AJK then idk how you're speaking on behalf of ethnic Kashmiris lol.

 

[Traveller55]

Well certainly aren't from Ajk cause you wouldn't be saying such illinformed things. If you're really from AJK then idk how you're speaking on behalf of ethnic Kashmiris lol.

I am not from AJK. I am most likely old enough to be most people's father here and my mother is from J&K. Part of her family is from AJK, part from Indian Kashmir. As I said, I havnt been to AJK but people in my extended family have and its pretty dire how much the Kashmiris have been marginalized by the Punjabis and Pushtuns in their own homeland over the last 70 years.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I am not from AJK. I am most likely old enough to be most people's father here and my mother is from J&K. Part of her family is from AJK, part from Indian Kashmir. As I said, I havnt been to AJK but people in my extended family have and its pretty dire how much the Kashmiris have been marginalized by the Punjabis and Pushtuns in their own homeland over the last 70 years.

Maybe you should leave England and settle back in AJK if you are that bothered about it. It's like people who moan about ethnics moving into white neighbourhoods here. It can't happen if original inhabitants don't move out.

 

[imrankhannsu]

I would like to see good relations between Pakistan and India but I doubt it will happen. Indian politicians and to some extent Pakistani politicians do not want this to happen, in particular the right wing political parties.

Also I think international politics will not allow both of the countries to have stable relationship either.

Bottom line: Answer is No

 

[KingKhanWC]

Since you don't know me and I don't know you, your empty claims mean nothing. Perhaps with age, you will mature.
And yes, almost every nation is TECHNICALLY guilty of genocide at some point in their history or another.



India has. But as I said, they also did not give away Kashmiri land to non-Kashmiris like Pakistan has done. And yes, Indian kashmiris have way more rights than Pakistani Kashmiris. Indian Kashmiris routinely exercise their right to shut down the state. In Paksitan, such action draws extra-judicial killings from the military and nothing comes to a stop.

The way I see it, both India and Pakistan are occupiers of Kashmir, but India has actually given far greater autonomy to Kashmir than Pakistan has.

You should quit now. India has killed, raped, tortured and imprisoned many many multiple times more, it's systemtic abuse. They do not want to be with India at all. Youre spouting utter garbab and only fooling yourself if you think Kashmiri's in India have it better than Kashmiri's in Pakistan. It's embarrasing to debate with someone so clueless.

 

[Traveller55]

You should quit now. India has killed, raped, tortured and imprisoned many many multiple times more, it's systemtic abuse. They do not want to be with India at all. Youre spouting utter garbab and only fooling yourself if you think Kashmiri's in India have it better than Kashmiri's in Pakistan. It's embarrasing to debate with someone so clueless.

they do have it way better.
They are richer. Fact.
They have greater civic rights. Also fact
They have greater autonomy. Also fact.

The entire reason they are protesting and Azad Kashmiris are not, is because unlike India, Pakistan specializes in making millions disappear if they dissent, total autocratic totalitarian military style. I know because they did it EXACTLY to my ancestors ( I am bangladeshi from my father's side).

So no, i don't buy the bull-crap Pakistan/Pakistanis are selling re: dissent of Kashmiris in India means they are better off in Pakistan. Nobody can say anything in Pakistan regarding cesseionism without getting their entire tribe wiped out by the ISI/Pakistani military.

 

[Traveller55]

Maybe you should leave England and settle back in AJK if you are that bothered about it. It's like people who moan about ethnics moving into white neighbourhoods here. It can't happen if original inhabitants don't move out.

So the original inhabitants moved out of Pakistani Kashmir, enough so that they are a bare majority in their own homeland.
Yet, India 'oppresses' Kashmiris but they don't move out of their own homeland and get swamped by non-Kashmiris.

Interesting inconsistency there.

 

[Traveller55]

I would like to see good relations between Pakistan and India but I doubt it will happen. Indian politicians and to some extent Pakistani politicians do not want this to happen, in particular the right wing political parties.

Also I think international politics will not allow both of the countries to have stable relationship either.

Bottom line: Answer is No

Its not the Pakistani politicians that are the problem, its the Pakistani military that's the problem.
India is ruled by its politicians and Pakistan by its military.
And as a neutral party, I think the biggest hurdle to long-term good relations between India and Pakistan, is the Pakistani military apparatus : they NEED the enmity with India to stay in control and take the lion's share of benefits.
India does not need Pakistan in the same way, as India is far more antagonistic and concerned with China.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

they do have it way better.
They are richer. Fact.
They have greater civic rights. Also fact
They have greater autonomy. Also fact.

The entire reason they are protesting and Azad Kashmiris are not, is because unlike India, Pakistan specializes in making millions disappear if they dissent, total autocratic totalitarian military style. I know because they did it EXACTLY to my ancestors ( I am bangladeshi from my father's side).

So no, i don't buy the bull-crap Pakistan/Pakistanis are selling re: dissent of Kashmiris in India means they are better off in Pakistan. Nobody can say anything in Pakistan regarding cesseionism without getting their entire tribe wiped out by the ISI/Pakistani military.

Oh here comes another brainwashed Indian

When you write ** like that, you sort of give yourself away....You do realise we have seen many like you before?

 

[Traveller55]

Oh here comes another brainwashed Indian

When you write ** like that, you sort of give yourself away....You do realise we have seen many like you before?

Not an Indian or Indian origin person. My mother is Kashmiri, my father is Bangladeshi. Canadian for a long, long time.

I suppose every Bangladeshi who doesn't toot the Pakistani horn, is an Indian...and you wonder why we broke away...

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Not an Indian or Indian origin person. My mother is Kashmiri, my father is Bangladeshi. Canadian for a long, long time.

I suppose every Bangladeshi who doesn't toot the Pakistani horn, is an Indian...and you wonder why we broke away...

Pull the other one my friend.... its all very convenient to fit your narrative. But when you parrot the same chapters from the Indian ministry of misinformation.... you stick out like a sore thumb especially to someone like me who is from AJK.

You do realise that it's largely the same families and tribes that rule in AJK since before the British raj... we are going back hundreds of years here...

As for a Kashmiri woman marrying a Bangladeshi 60 or 70 years ago.... very unlikely. I rather not say why, but Iam sure you can guess it.

 

[Traveller55]

Pull the other one my friend.... its all very convenient to fit your narrative. But when you parrot the same chapters from the Indian ministry of misinformation.... you stick out like a sore thumb especially to someone like me who is from AJK.

Maybe that is a factor of your Pakistani bias- have you considered that ? its all too-convenient to label someone as 'Indian' when you are Pakistani and they disagree with you on major issues- Indians do it too.

You do realise that it's largely the same families and tribes that rule in AJK since before the British raj... we are going back hundreds of years here...

As for a Kashmiri woman marrying a Bangladeshi 60 or 70 years ago.... very unlikely. I rather not say why, but Iam sure you can guess it.

Unlikely does not mean anything in the actual, real world. Infact it was far easier for Kashmiri women to marry Bangladeshi men 60-70 years ago, all the way to 45-ish years ago. I am sure you can guess why, too.

And yes, I am well aware that the same families are in charge. Nobody is talking of them. I am talking of the mass influx of Punjabis and Pashtuns in the last 70 years, from the point where they were less than 20% of the population, to've become close to 50.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Maybe that is a factor of your Pakistani bias- have you considered that ? its all too-convenient to label someone as 'Indian' when you are Pakistani and they disagree with you on major issues- Indians do it too.



Unlikely does not mean anything in the actual, real world. Infact it was far easier for Kashmiri women to marry Bangladeshi men 60-70 years ago, all the way to 45-ish years ago. I am sure you can guess why, too.

And yes, I am well aware that the same families are in charge. Nobody is talking of them. I am talking of the mass influx of Punjabis and Pashtuns in the last 70 years, from the point where they were less than 20% of the population, to've become close to 50.

if punjabis and pushtuns were 50%, you would have seen power shift in who is elected and who is in power, you wouldn't find the same clans getting elected and holding onto power...... it's just absurd for you to come here and try to spread your ** and expect it to fly... do you seriously believe that anyone here is going to buy it?

If you want to have a serious debate.... read the exchange I had with Garuda.

 

[Traveller55]

if punjabis and pushtuns were 50%, you would have seen power shift in who is elected and who is in power, you wouldn't find the same clans getting elected and holding onto power...... it's just absurd for you to come here and try to spread your ** and expect it to fly... do you seriously believe that anyone here is going to buy it?

If you want to have a serious debate.... read the exchange I had with Garuda.

OK Bhai. This is the internet. If you have chosen to believe I am an Indian troll, nothing can convince u otherwise.

I believe what I believe, because I know people with first hand experience saying so. A random person on the internet won't change that, I hope you can understand that.

 

[imrankhannsu]

Its not the Pakistani politicians that are the problem, its the Pakistani military that's the problem.
India is ruled by its politicians and Pakistan by its military.
And as a neutral party, I think the biggest hurdle to long-term good relations between India and Pakistan, is the Pakistani military apparatus : they NEED the enmity with India to stay in control and take the lion's share of benefits.
India does not need Pakistan in the same way, as India is far more antagonistic and concerned with China.

You maybe right, but the bottom line is NO the Op's original question

 

[raju420]

Make Kashmir totally independent of the 2 if they want it. And then join together( trade, water conservation) to tackle the horrendous levels of poverty in both. Billions are spent on weapons which benefits no one except the elite in both countries.

Indian weapons are not for our Pakistani brothers they are for the Chinese lizards who have bankrupted many countries in Africa and have made Lanka very close to bankruptcy.

 

[raju420]

I would say the religious extremist issue is with India. You have a right wing Hindutva extremist government in power. They dont even like Indian Muslims, so will never be peace with Pakistani's. This would be the obstacle to peace if Kashmir was resolved.

Indian right is actually to the left of the Pakistani left.

Indian right is nothing as compared to Pakistani right.

Indians have never invaded any other country in the world.

people following all religions have happily lived in India.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Did you read the OP? This thread is based on a hypothetical situation that Kashmir issue is resolved. Status quo, even if Pakistan accepts it, will NEVER resolve the issue and any person who has the understanding of the issue will acknowledge it. Its because the origin of the problem is not Pakistan. So resolving only means a full fledged political end of the problem with the consent of all the parties involved including the most important ones i.e. Kashmiris.

You can ask the OP what he meant when he said Kashmir issue would be resolved. I am certain that he didnt mean Pakistan accepting status quo.

Kashmir valley, Chenab valley (Doda, Bhaderwah) and Kargil should join Pakistan. Then we draw a permanent border that’s what the people in those areas want!

 

[Traveller55]

Kashmir valley, Chenab valley (Doda, Bhaderwah) and Kargil should join Pakistan. Then we draw a permanent border ������������that’s what the people in those areas want! ��

Then implement the UN resolution and vacate kashmir, so India can have a referendum under international supervision and your Kashmiri brothers can join you.

The answer lies with Paksitan's action, not India's. Pakistan simply needs to realize, that the days of rabble-rousing with populism at the expense of the law, is long, long gone. The law is the law and no amount of emotional appeal will override the law. And in this case, the law is with India.

 

[raju420]

The sources are the beef ban, genocide of Kashmiris, persecution of Sikhs. Just a few nights ago I was listening to evangelical radio down here and there was a white guy talking about the mass killings of Christians in the Indian colony of Orissa.

There is no genocide of Sikhs under BJP. It was congress (Indira Gandhi and Rajeev Gandhi) that did genocide of Sikhs. Sikhs are now perfectly fine except for the idiotic Khalistanis in Canada, USA and UK on the payroll of ISI. Sikhs in Punjab do not want Khalistan and are very happy and prosperous.

 

[tanvy]

There is no genocide of Sikhs under BJP. It was congress (Indira Gandhi and Rajeev Gandhi) that did genocide of Sikhs. Sikhs are now perfectly fine except for the idiotic Khalistanis in Canada, USA and UK on the payroll of ISI. Sikhs in Punjab do not want Khalistan and are very happy and prosperous.

Try searching “role of RSS in Sikh killings in 1984” on google.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

It’s very naive of you to think that the Kashmir issue will be resolved. Even if it does one can use Bangladesh as a navigating point for this issue and you’ll find the answer.

 

[TikkiTaka]

Yes, once Muslims become majority in India. Then we can have Muslim rule and there will be peace. As Muslim birth rate is much greater than Hindus, this will happen in the next 50 years. Muslims have already gone up from 5% of India's Population at time of Partition to 18% now.

 

[Lonewarrior]

if punjabis and pushtuns were 50%, you would have seen power shift in who is elected and who is in power, you wouldn't find the same clans getting elected and holding onto power...... it's just absurd for you to come here and try to spread your ** and expect it to fly... do you seriously believe that anyone here is going to buy it?

If you want to have a serious debate.... read the exchange I had with Garuda.

you just blown his cover.

 

[Syed1]

No, until India has people like Modi (and trust me they have millions of them) they will continue to try to hurt Pakistan even if Kashmir is resolved.

 

[Savak]

The current events have just proven how the entire bilateral relationship is extremely sensitive to just one event.

 

[slipcatch]

As geo-politics of sub-continent region changes, India will always need violence in Kashmir to demonize and destabilize Pakistan.

So there are no chance of Peace for a long time, not at least for next 5 years.

 

[troodon]

No, until India has people like Modi (and trust me they have millions of them) they will continue to try to hurt Pakistan even if Kashmir is resolved.

India will not try to hurt Pak if Kashmir issue is resolved. We can at least spend our resources on better things.
OTOH Pak’s militant organizations will continue to poke their nose in India.

 

[imrankhannsu]

Sadly politicians on both sides will not allow healthy relations between the two countries. In India it seems social media suicide if anyone speaks in favour of Pakistanis these days. Anyone who is vocal gets the support of the whole media.

 

[Junaid_ahmed]

Sadly politicians on both sides will not allow healthy relations between the two countries. In India it seems social media suicide if anyone speaks in favour of Pakistanis these days. Anyone who is vocal gets the support of the whole media.

No Sir, politicians of only one side. Indeed there will be one or two politicians from other side who most of the times answering to agression. In last 3 elections non of Pakistani politician ask vote from hate speeches. In fact all the Pakistani politicians use to be busy in defending their corrupt leadership. Pakistani political culture is not similar to India or may be their incompetency that they can't talk on international issues.