Could Pakistan have beaten an England T20I side with Ben Stokes and Jos Buttler in it?

[MenInG]

Its good we have a victory under our belts against a good team but cant help wondering, we had a full strength side versus a side which was potentially missing some top match-winners.

Now its true that we dont choose the opposition XI, yet in terms of satisfaction - would have been interesting to see how we would have fared against an England side with players like Stokes and Buttler in it (and Jofra Archer/Mark Wood as well)!

 

[Mamoon]

We are not good enough to beat England, India and Australia unless they underperform.

So it all depends on how Stokes and Buttler would have played.

If they would have played to their 75% capacity we would be dead.

 

[Rayyman]

Yes.

Stokes is not a great T20I player.

 

[Kroll]

For sure, just as mediocre Pakistan can be, England at full strength aren't invincible either. The shortened number of overs gives lesser teams more of chance to compete.

Not to mention we handicap ourselves with passengers and expired players so no point in dwelling on it.

 

[Saj]

Archer and Wood were also missing from the squad.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Haha absolutely not. Imagine Buttler coming out instead of Billings who scored 26(24).

 

[Titan24]

Well, Pakistan was able to beat Eng in CW 19, CT 17 and by 9 wickets in a one off T20 in 2016 where both of them were playing.

Pakistan cricket team isnt great but England despite being world champions in the format is definitely not invincible.

England is the best LOI team and even beating their team with 2-3 players missing is not a child's play.

 

[Hasan123]

In a one off game for sure sure, but of the course of a series I wouldn't expect Pakistan to beat a full strength England side.

In the end proven quality will out perform mediocrity in the long haul.

 

[PakPremi]

Sure if Pak select their best team as well. Which means no Malik and instead Khushdil, fit and in form Amir (wahab also plays) and Rizwan as keeper. Sarfraz mistake nearly cost us the match. Sam Billing is a very good player as well we bowled well against him.

 

[FreePalestine]

Definitely facing Archer and Wood would have been harder, but in terms of batsmen, I guess there are many players around who can whack the ball on these pitches.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Sure if Pak select their best team as well. Which means no Malik and instead Khushdil, fit and in form Amir (wahab also plays) and Rizwan as keeper. Sarfraz mistake nearly cost us the match. Sam Billing is a very good player as well we bowled well against him.

How do you select a fit and in form Amir?

I wish all teams could select in form versions of their players instead of the out of form versions.

 

[Robert]

Of course, it only takes two balls to get them both out.

 

[Mesozoic]

Yes. But probably ? No.

Full strength England will beat any team (barring Ind and Aus) atleast 4/5 times at home

 

[naseem]

Eng can easily play 2 strong teams against all.....in limited overs....they have players cut out for limited overs match......

 

[Ab Fan]

What would be England full strength XI?

Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
Wood
Rashid
Archer
Jordan

But doesn't Buttler open in T20s?

 

[Rana]

We are not good enough to beat England, India and Australia unless they underperform.

So it all depends on how Stokes and Buttler would have played.

If they would have played to their 75% capacity we would be dead.

Oh yeah, so beating England in the 2019 wc with Root and Butler scoring a hundred each was England underperforming?

 

[Rana]

The amount of nonsense the same guy spreads on this forum.

The truth is that if Pakistan turn up with 75% of their focus, they are a very hard team to deal with even if they have the likes of Rao Iftikhar or Shahid Nazir as their main fast bowlers.

The problem is, Pakistan is switched off for 85% of the time

 

[Mamoon]

Oh yeah, so beating England in the 2019 wc with Root and Butler scoring a hundred each was England underperforming?

Pakistan beat England because 6 key England players underperformed:

Roy, Bairstow, Stokes, Morgan, Woakes and Archer.

And in spite of only two key players performing (Root and Buttler), England only lost by 14 runs.

That match simply illustrates my point - Pakistan can only beat the likes England, India and Australia if these teams collectively underperform.

Pakistan will lose ODIs and T20Is to these sides 10/10 times anywhere in the world if these teams bring their A game.

Note that I didn’t include Tests here. In Tests, we do have the capacity to beat these sides in UAE/Pakistan because Yasir is the best spinner in the world in Asian conditions after Ashwin and Jadeja.

 

[Mamoon]

^ India is obviously not included in Tests. They will demolish us in Asia (or anywhere) if they bring their A game.

I was talking about England and Australia.

 

[Rana]

^ India is obviously not included in Tests. They will demolish us in Asia (or anywhere) if they bring their A game.

I was talking about England and Australia.

No on will beat Pakistan if they bring their A game also? No one can beat Bangladesh if they bring their A game as well. So what is your point? 6 England players underperforming is down to Pakistan being switched on, not England switched off.

 

[Rana]

So Pakistani bowlers take on Ben Stokes after he displays some of his greatest ever form in the series before against West Indies, only to be bowled by a beauty by Abbas.

This is down to Stokes underperforming rather than Abbas and Pakistan playing well?

 

[Forward Defensive Push]

One thing that always surprises me if how we play our best possible team in bilateral series only to be taken down in tournaments. Look at England - they're missing Buttler, Stokes, Archer, Wood and Roy from their squad. I'm sure they would definitely not field the likes of Gregory, Saqib in their first XI. On the contrary, our first choice pacers choose to retire from tests to continue to play these meaningless T20 matches. PCB needs to sort it's priorities.

 

[MMHS]

What would be England full strength XI?

Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
Wood
Rashid
Archer
Jordan

But doesn't Buttler open in T20s?

Almost, but I don’t think Jordan is an automatic first choice now. They already has four pacers including Stokes who can bowl four overs, therefore I think ENG will play Moeen at 7. That’s an unbelievable batting line-up - so good that they might drop Woakes and play a T20 specialist.

 

[Ashmal]

Well...on the pitches we get for bilaterals in England, a full-strength English team will beat every team in the world 8/10 times in T20s

There is no team that can match England's firepower on flat wickets.

But if the wicket has something for bowlers (or it's a bit slow & dry) then the other teams can compete and beat England (as we saw in WC 2019).

 

[sweep_shot]

T20 format is such a format that any team can beat another team regardless of which players are playing.

So, I think Pakistan could've beaten England even if Stokes and Butler were playing.

 

[Mesozoic]

Well...on the pitches we get for bilaterals in England, a full-strength English team will beat every team in the world 8/10 times in T20s

Not every team. India and Australia (at full strength) are almost as good as them on any wickets. In fact, India beat them 2-1 in 2018.... without Bumrah.

Yes England have improved slightly with the arrival of guys like Archer and Banton. They'll start 60-40 favourites against India and Australia. They won't beat them 8/10 times. That's for sure.

 

[Mamoon]

No on will beat Pakistan if they bring their A game also? No one can beat Bangladesh if they bring their A game as well. So what is your point? 6 England players underperforming is down to Pakistan being switched on, not England switched off.

Pakistan is a mediocre team, which means vast majority of our players are mediocre, which means that we don’t really have A game.

The point is that if England players are switched on, Pakistan will get hammered whether it’s players are switched on or not.

There is a very clear skill gap between England, India and Australia and Pakistan. The only way for Pakistan to beat them is if their players underperform. That can happen in one-off matches but not in a series.

 

[PakPremi]

How do you select a fit and in form Amir?

I wish all teams could select in form versions of their players instead of the out of form versions.

The same way you select unavailable Stokes or untired Butler. You know what I mean Amir who has picked form having played few games.

 

[PakPremi]

Pakistan is a mediocre team, which means vast majority of our players are mediocre, which means that we don’t really have A game.

The point is that if England players are switched on, Pakistan will get hammered whether it’s players are switched on or not.

There is a very clear skill gap between England, India and Australia and Pakistan. The only way for Pakistan to beat them is if their players underperform. That can happen in one-off matches but not in a series.

If Pak can beatEngland in championship trophy and World Cup, high pressure games, then they can beat them in.a T20 game Even if we go by your theory of England having an off game for Pak to lose the answer to OP is still Yes

 

[MenInG]

Buttler making an impact versus Australia - could have been a handful against us too

 

[DandyFellow]

The way Australia has strangled England in the field exposes our bowlers even more. Although Australian bowlers were outfoxed by brilliant batting by Buttler they stuck to their plans and made a comeback. Inclusion of Buttler would have definitely hurt Pakistan more. In the bowling, Archer and Wood would have made a difference too.

 

[shaz619]

It would take a miracle of biblical proportions, our Joshy and Stokesy would batter Pakistan from genesis all the way to revelations. Think about it, they struggled against Lewis Gregory of all people! and turned a 12 of 2 situation into 6 of 1 ! that too when up against England's tail. Pakistan quiet simply are all over the place and rely more on their morale / energy rather then shrewd tactics, exceptional team balance and elite level skills in batting, bowling and fielding. Quiet frankly I know T20 is largely considered brainless cricket which is why inconsistent teams have success, but as this format has aged; there is a method to the madness and teams like England are just a lot more dynamic unfortunately.

 

[Hasan123]

It would take a miracle of biblical proportions, our Joshy and Stokesy would batter Pakistan from genesis all the way to revelations. Think about it, they struggled against Lewis Gregory of all people! and turned a 12 of 2 situation into 6 of 1 ! that too when up against England's tail. Pakistan quiet simply are all over the place and rely more on their morale / energy rather then shrewd tactics, exceptional team balance and elite level skills in batting, bowling and fielding. Quiet frankly I know T20 is largely considered brainless cricket which is why inconsistent teams have success, but as this format has aged; there is a method to the madness and teams like England are just a lot more dynamic unfortunately.

Today you support England. When Pakistan have a successful series or win a tournament you will support them lol.

 

[Thephenom]

Mate, don’t even bother wasting your time, this guy is just a broken record!

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Pak are lucky. Rather Misbah has been lucky.

They would have been humiliated and Misbah would have been trying to save his job.

 

[BreadPakoda]

I'm surprised why they have brought back the likes of Butler, Archer, and Wood against Ozzies just a few days after they skipped the T20Is against Pak. Strange tactics.

 

[Extra_Cover]

England is by far the most dominant limited overs side at the moment when at full strength. It would be a real challenge to defeat them at WT21.

 

[Shazzam]

I'm surprised why they have brought back the likes of Butler, Archer, and Wood against Ozzies just a few days after they skipped the T20Is against Pak. Strange tactics.

They did not see us as a threat obviously. We were going with a “young” team.

 

[shujaatraza]

Pakistan beat England because 6 key England players underperformed:

Roy, Bairstow, Stokes, Morgan, Woakes and Archer.

And in spite of only two key players performing (Root and Buttler), England only lost by 14 runs.

That match simply illustrates my point - Pakistan can only beat the likes England, India and Australia if these teams collectively underperform.

Pakistan will lose ODIs and T20Is to these sides 10/10 times anywhere in the world if these teams bring their A game.

Note that I didn’t include Tests here. In Tests, we do have the capacity to beat these sides in UAE/Pakistan because Yasir is the best spinner in the world in Asian conditions after Ashwin and Jadeja.

Give me examples of any ODI or t20 matches where 11 out of 11 players performed.? Every time 3-4 players perform and the team wins.
Bro, I find it absurd sometimes the extremes you take to undermine Pakistan players and its team. At least be neutral with your analysis.

 

[angrypathan]

I'm surprised why they have brought back the likes of Butler, Archer, and Wood against Ozzies just a few days after they skipped the T20Is against Pak. Strange tactics.

What's strange about it? Those players were rested after two back to back test series with a very short gap between games.

 

[nam]

Yes, Pakistan is on par with England and ahead of India

 

[Smudger]

Give me examples of any ODI or t20 matches where 11 out of 11 players performed.? Every time 3-4 players perform and the team wins.
Bro, I find it absurd sometimes the extremes you take to undermine Pakistan players and its team. At least be neutral with your analysis.

Yes. If he gives even one example of all the 11 players performing. I will leave the forum and stop watching cricket. He will never mention that the chase came close just because root was dropped. Moeen was dropped in last t20 otherwise it was a straight forward chase. He always mentions Fakhar's no ball but never mentions Kohli's drop. All in all he is just one biased man who just wants to degrade his country. Even if Pak is mediocre then whats the worry in it. Sports is just entertainment. Life goes on. People come to the forum to relieve themselves of stress and in every posts he harps about how mediocre Pak team is.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

I think England would have won the series had these two played. Just like Aus would have won the series against India had Smith & Warner played in that series.

 

[sharmaji]

We will never know. But Pakistan can beat any team in the world on its day. Stokes and Buttler have failed before so they are not invincible either.

 

[Mueez]

I think we would’ve done better. Because we would do our best against these two and try to get these two out asap...

 

[PakPremi]

Yes. If he gives even one example of all the 11 players performing. I will leave the forum and stop watching cricket. He will never mention that the chase came close just because root was dropped. Moeen was dropped in last t20 otherwise it was a straight forward chase. He always mentions Fakhar's no ball but never mentions Kohli's drop. All in all he is just one biased man who just wants to degrade his country. Even if Pak is mediocre then whats the worry in it. Sports is just entertainment. Life goes on. People come to the forum to relieve themselves of stress and in every posts he harps about how mediocre Pak team is.

Nice Post and very true.

 

[MMHS]

What a silly topic. 2005, that BD side defeated that Australia side in an ODI in UK, in an active rubber..... then took India out of 2007 WC.

One odd game - anything possible. But, I actually don’t back PAK to beat this ENG team they played, in a series of 3 or 5 games.

 

[PakPremi]

With Archer going for 33 runs in 4 overs why not?

 

[BreadPakoda]

With Archer going for 33 runs in 4 overs why not?

You do realize that Pakistan had a higher run rate than that in both the T20Is?

 

[PakPremi]

You do realize that Pakistan had a higher run rate than that in both the T20Is?

So did many English bowlers. And why just talk about 2, Pak bowled in 3 matches. Anyhow we are talking about the bowler that would have turned the tables heavily in England favour, not just any average bowler.

 

[ammar_merry]

What a silly topic. 2005, that BD side defeated that Australia side in an ODI in UK, in an active rubber..... then took India out of 2007 WC.

One odd game - anything possible. But, I actually don’t back PAK to beat this ENG team they played, in a series of 3 or 5 games.

What kind of comparison is this.Bangladesh was 10th ranked team at that time.Pakistan is always among top 4 in t20s.

 

[Ab Fan]

Buttler is simply brilliant LOI player for this era.

 

[BreadPakoda]

So did many English bowlers. And why just talk about 2, Pak bowled in 3 matches. Anyhow we are talking about the bowler that would have turned the tables heavily in England favour, not just any average bowler.

Let me rephrase - Pakistan when batting had a higher run rate than that.

32 off 4 translates to 160 in 20 overs, which isn't that very bad. Otherwise, Jofra averages 15 @ 7.75 in T20Is and 22 @ 7.8 in T20s which is solid for the format.

 

[PakPremi]

And my point is 7.8 is not earth shattering, so whether Archer played or not would have not made that much difference. Other English bowlers bowled similarly against us in terms of impact.

 

[naseem]

Buttler is in form of his life..... So having him is advantage Eng....but in T20 anything can happen....Stokes is more dangerous in tests and ODIS

 

[hashimafzal]

Pakistan is a mediocre team, which means vast majority of our players are mediocre, which means that we don’t really have A game.

The point is that if England players are switched on, Pakistan will get hammered whether it’s players are switched on or not.

There is a very clear skill gap between England, India and Australia and Pakistan. The only way for Pakistan to beat them is if their players underperform. That can happen in one-off matches but not in a series.

Great we should just stop playing cricket then and decide results beforehand.

Last time I checked, underperforming as well as over-performing were part of the game. Let me also tell you that the best team does not always win in sport.

As a team, your job is simply to put your players in a position where they are most likely to succeed, and restrict the other team from doing so.

England, Australia and India are all better teams than us, but does that mean we should simply lay down whenever we come across them on the pitch?

 

[Mamoon]

Great we should just stop playing cricket then and decide results beforehand.

Last time I checked, underperforming as well as over-performing were part of the game. Let me also tell you that the best team does not always win in sport.

As a team, your job is simply to put your players in a position where they are most likely to succeed, and restrict the other team from doing so.

England, Australia and India are all better teams than us, but does that mean we should simply lay down whenever we come across them on the pitch?

Never said any of that. You are just upset because I stated that Pakistan is a poor team.

My point is that if both Pakistan and England play their best game, England will win 10/10 times because England is a superior team. The only exception would be Test cricket in Asia where Pakistan have the advantage of Yasir who is miles better than his English counterparts.

The best team does not always win but it does win most of the time. There is a reason why Pakistan has not won a single ODI series against the likes of England and Australia since 2005 and 2002 respectively.

 

[MMHS]

What kind of comparison is this.Bangladesh was 10th ranked team at that time.Pakistan is always among top 4 in t20s.

Bangladesh is still not that high in ranking, but you completely misunderstood the point.

 

[ufcfan]

Pakistan is England's bogey team,you never know