Despite Billions spent on defense, where was India’s security during the Pahalgam attack?

[emranabbas]

A deadly attack happened in one of the most sensitive and supposedly “well-guarded” areas in the country, and the response was... absolutely nothing. No quick reaction, no visible security, not even a single cop or soldier on the scene when it actually mattered. This happened in a tourist area in Kashmir, not some remote village and yet there was no one around to step in.

How is that even possible in a place that’s supposed to be swarming with security?


It brings up some uncomfortable but necessary questions for the Indians:


Is India’s security all talk? Every year, india pumps in billions in defense, intelligence, and internal security and still, attackers were able to stroll into a tourist hotspot with weapons and explosives like it was nothing. Either someone seriously messed up, or their system is so weak that can't even do the basics like protect people in high-risk areas. i know indians will try to compare it with Pakistan but just for the sake of an argument lets agree Pakistan is a failed state but we are talking about a country like India who are always boasting


Where were the forces? Every time something like this happens, india gives the same old excuses “intelligence failure,” “caught off guard,” “miscommunication.” At this point, India are just incompetent .These aren’t one-off errors anymore, they’re repeated screw-up that terrorists clearly know how to take advantage of.


Or was it something worse? was this allowed to happen? When security is completely absent during an attack like this, it makes you wonder if someone told them to back off. Was this an inside job?


India’s always putting up a front of being tough on terror, but when real danger shows up, where’s that toughness?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Organising the attack probably.

 

[RexRex]

It's very hard to police a porous border.

 

[ipog]

A deadly attack happened in one of the most sensitive and supposedly “well-guarded” areas in the country, and the response was... absolutely nothing. No quick reaction, no visible security, not even a single cop or soldier on the scene when it actually mattered. This happened in a tourist area in Kashmir, not some remote village and yet there was no one around to step in.

How is that even possible in a place that’s supposed to be swarming with security?


It brings up some uncomfortable but necessary questions for the Indians:


Is India’s security all talk? Every year, india pumps in billions in defense, intelligence, and internal security and still, attackers were able to stroll into a tourist hotspot with weapons and explosives like it was nothing. Either someone seriously messed up, or their system is so weak that can't even do the basics like protect people in high-risk areas. i know indians will try to compare it with Pakistan but just for the sake of an argument lets agree Pakistan is a failed state but we are talking about a country like India who are always boasting


Where were the forces? Every time something like this happens, india gives the same old excuses “intelligence failure,” “caught off guard,” “miscommunication.” At this point, India are just incompetent .These aren’t one-off errors anymore, they’re repeated screw-up that terrorists clearly know how to take advantage of.


Or was it something worse? was this allowed to happen? When security is completely absent during an attack like this, it makes you wonder if someone told them to back off. Was this an inside job?


India’s always putting up a front of being tough on terror, but when real danger shows up, where’s that toughness?

Ah, You are on of those who say 9/11 and 26/11 are inside jobs. Same as Pak's school bomb attacks and baluch train attacks then

 

[Major]

Probably thinking about the next move to make in cricket to feel powerful.....

Who knows this could be an indian army inside job like they did when Clinton came to a visit and 35 sikhs were killed and it turned out to be their own armed forces to be involved.

I found it interesting that the terrorist were wearing Indian army uniform with the emblems.

 

[emranabbas]

Ah, You are on of those who say 9/11 and 26/11 are inside jobs. Same as Pak's school bomb attacks and baluch train attacks then

I'm not trying to stir anything up, but it’s honestly hard to understand how something like this can happen in India

especially when we hear so much about billions being spent on security and how progressing india is

Let’s not even bring Pakistan into this as india considers pakiatan to be a failed countey so its bit silly to compare it self with pakistan.

But for a country like India, with its global standing, it really makes you wonder what’s going wrong.


Let me know if you want it even more emotional or toned down.

 

[JaDed]

Organising the attack probably.

Naw that is organised by ones that put IK and keep him behind bars.
The greatest Establishment to rule a region.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Unfortunately the old adage is true, intelligence has to be right 100% of the time and the terrorists only need to be right once.

In this case I think they suffered from some hubris and thought Kashmir issue was resolved. That was the news that we appeared to have been fed by people like @saimayubera era who claimed to holiday yearly and that insurgency was over because there was a railway bridge that had been built. Rather than a false flag attack they seemed to just let their guard down too soon. When the government and media presents an overly picture then it is natural that the security personnel will loosen their guards. Only recently the Indian establishment were talking about entering Azad Kashmir now that they felt the Kashmir issue was solved on their side. Perhaps their focus was elsewhere?

 

[Bhaijaan]

Terrorist incidents happen all over the world including US, EU who have bigger defense budgets

 

[HalBass9]

Terrorist incidents happen all over the world including US, EU who have bigger defense budgets

True. No one stations an estimated 700,000 troops in a region just to “protect and defend” it.

 

[Bhaijaan]

True. No one stations an estimated 700,000 troops in a region just to “protect and defend” it.

It’s an exaggerated number and we just saw the reality of the situation. After whatever happened does it look like 700k to anyone? This is just corruption of the highest order and needs a deeper investigation. Where is all the money going? Hi recruitment’s happening, they’re talking about temporary contracted soldiers and stuff like that.

 

[HalBass9]

It’s an exaggerated number and we just saw the reality of the situation. After whatever happened does it look like 700k to anyone? This is just corruption of the highest order and needs a deeper investigation. Where is all the money going? Hi recruitment’s happening, they’re talking about temporary contracted soldiers and stuff like that.

Even half that number would raise eyebrows.

 

[emranabbas]

Terrorist incidents happen all over the world including US, EU who have bigger defense budgets

For argument sake let's say these guys travelled from sialkot to pahalgam

nobody on the way searched for weapons?

Do you not have any checkpoints? security was sleeping or something?

And if it is pakistan its not possible without indian help, so we could say it could be inside job

 

[emranabbas]

So there are currently 1 million soldiers active in IOK and 4 guys from pakistan dodged them and did some Hungama in pahalgam?

Here are the actual number of troops deployed in Jammu and Kashmir

The latest number of Indian security personnel in Jammu & Kashmir is 1 million! Yes, that’s 1,000,000 troops deployed in Jammu & Kashmir with the express purpose to hold the local population, according to media that doesn't much care for facts. | OpIndia News

www.opindia.com

 

[HalBass9]

For argument sake let's say these guys travelled from sialkot to pahalgam

nobody on the way searched for weapons?

Do you not have any checkpoints? security was sleeping or something?

And if it is pakistan its not possible without indian help, so we could say it could be inside job

View attachment 153716

An estimated 700,000 troops stationed in the region, allegedly to “protect” it.

The real issue? Fingers were already being pointed before the bodies were even counted. It’s narrative control, and it speaks volumes.

 

[sweep_shot]

So there are currently 1 million soldiers active in IOK and 4 guys from pakistan dodged them and did some Hungama in pahalgam?

Here are the actual number of troops deployed in Jammu and Kashmir

The latest number of Indian security personnel in Jammu & Kashmir is 1 million! Yes, that’s 1,000,000 troops deployed in Jammu & Kashmir with the express purpose to hold the local population, according to media that doesn't much care for facts. | OpIndia News

www.opindia.com

Doesn't seem believable at all.

It seems like they wanted/allowed it to happen. False flag?

 

[emranabbas]

Doesn't seem believable at all.

It seems like they wanted/allowed it to happen. False flag?

Its either their soldiers are incompetent or its an inside job

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Ah, You are on of those who say 9/11

Americans themselves say 9/11 was a false flag.

 

[Usman Chadda]

The consistency with which these guys get their pants pulled down by a failed state like Pakistan is shocking for such a rapidly developing powerhouse.

These idiots pretty much end up calling their intelligence useless when they blame Pakistan.

 

[Ball Blazer]

Seems plotted, an inside job for sure!

 

[Stewie]

The consistency with which these guys get their pants pulled down by a failed state like Pakistan is shocking for such a rapidly developing powerhouse.

These idiots pretty much end up calling their intelligence useless when they blame Pakistan.

that's bad intelligence. very very bad..

 

[BouncerGuy]

A question, GOI has to answer, or else accept the failure of its forces and intelligence agency.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915662384498434158

 

[Hikaru]

A question, GOI has to answer, or else accept the failure of its forces and intelligence agency.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915662384498434158

This is a major failure and will hurt the govt big time. There's no good excuse.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

A question, GOI has to answer, or else accept the failure of its forces and intelligence agency.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915662384498434158

Comments are weird. BJP types shouting at Congress about Mumbai.

Rather than being united after this horrible attack they appear very polarized.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Comments are weird. BJP types shouting at Congress about Mumbai.

Rather than being united after this horrible attack they appear very polarized.

They are all busy blaming locals only.

 

[ChAslam]

Probably wasting all the defence budget on propaganda movies starring Ajay Devgan

 

[BouncerGuy]

Maybe they are spending their budget on making new anti-Pakistan movie starring akshay kumar or maybe hritik roshan...

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Security was a failure. Government policy towards towards Kashmir was a failure too. The state got caught up on some delusion and hubris thinking that the Kashmir issue was solved. Unfortunately it was far from it. They should rightly be criticized.

Regardless, this whole incident would not have happened if gunmen had shot people. Rather than blaming security we should ensure that blame is placed squarely on the attackers.

Pakistan has suffered from terrorist attacks. We know the consequences of them having to provide presidential levels of security. You cannot have these levels of security in day to day life. Terrorists only have to be right one to cause carnage. A determined terrorist will find a hole in the most watertight of arrangements.

Only way forward is a political solution to this issue with Kashmiris at the forefront of the decision.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Security was a failure. Government policy towards towards Kashmir was a failure too. The state got caught up on some delusion and hubris thinking that the Kashmir issue was solved. Unfortunately it was far from it. They should rightly be criticized.

Regardless, this whole incident would not have happened if gunmen had shot people. Rather than blaming security we should ensure that blame is placed squarely on the attackers.

Pakistan has suffered from terrorist attacks. We know the consequences of them having to provide presidential levels of security. You cannot have these levels of security in day to day life. Terrorists only have to be right one to cause carnage. A determined terrorist will find a hole in the most watertight of arrangements.

Only way forward is a political solution to this issue with Kashmiris at the forefront of the decision.

Good to see a Pakistani talking sense.

Was a major security flop by the government, they thought everything was nice and rosy, tourism was back after decades of isolation, new infrastructure built, things were looking up in Indian Kashmir. The government felt all the problems were gone, let their guard down and boy did they get a rude awakening....

Some of the dumb posts you read here about inside job etc is pure comedy. Why in the world would the government spend so much money and time to develop the area to just ruin it by themselves one random day ..

 

[cricketfan24]

Good to see a Pakistani talking sense.

Was a major security flop by the government, they thought everything was nice and rosy, tourism was back after decades of isolation, new infrastructure built, things were looking up in Indian Kashmir. The government felt all the problems were gone, let their guard down and boy did they get a rude awakening....

Some of the dumb posts you read here about inside job etc is pure comedy. Why in the world would the government spend so much money and time to develop the area to just ruin it by themselves one random day ..

But this is what your DGP said last month

"We will not sleep till we stop such activities": Jammu and Kashmir DGP on Kathua encounter

So why did he go sleep?


Read more At:

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/general-news/we-will-not-sleep-till-we-stop-such-activities-jammu-and-kashmir-dgp-on-kathua-encounter20250329051619/

 

[Romali_rotti]

A question, GOI has to answer, or else accept the failure of its forces and intelligence agency.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915662384498434158

Mashallahhh

Kerala Congress, soldiers from my part of town...


Us malayaless own the title of being part of one of the dumbest moves in Indian history, having AK Antony as our defence minister in the past.

Ammayi Sonya Zindaaabaad

 

[Romali_rotti]

But this is what your DGP said last month

"We will not sleep till we stop such activities": Jammu and Kashmir DGP on Kathua encounter

So why did he go sleep?


Read more At:

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/general-news/we-will-not-sleep-till-we-stop-such-activities-jammu-and-kashmir-dgp-on-kathua-encounter20250329051619/

I don't know why he went to sleep, maybe he didn't get enough sleep the night before.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Good to see a Pakistani talking sense.

Was a major security flop by the government, they thought everything was nice and rosy, tourism was back after decades of isolation, new infrastructure built, things were looking up in Indian Kashmir. The government felt all the problems were gone, let their guard down and boy did they get a rude awakening....

Some of the dumb posts you read here about inside job etc is pure comedy. Why in the world would the government spend so much money and time to develop the area to just ruin it by themselves one random day ..

Inside job is a lame theory.

Basically it means all the attacks happened around the world are inside jobs but the ones in Pakistan are real

 

[BouncerGuy]

800,000 troops in Kashmir, yet incidents still occur. Are they incompetent???

Guess so,

 

[Devadwal]

800,000 troops in Kashmir, yet incidents still occur. Are they incompetent???

Guess so,

Lol Pakistan posters are yet again lying . Koi bolta hai 10L hai koi 8 L etc etc

 

[Devadwal]

Despite Pakistan spend maximum money on defence , they can't even stop the Train Hijack and now entire Highway is taken control by BLA.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1916435456364859466

 

[BouncerGuy]

Lol Pakistan posters are yet again lying . Koi bolta hai 10L hai koi 8 L etc etc

bhai... 5lac b hon... answer the simple question... Is Indian force that incompetent???

 

[Devadwal]

bhai... 5lac b hon... answer the simple question... Is Indian force that incompetent???

I already explained in the details ( Other threads) . Kashmir Geography and some Local support is the reason why these terrorist attacks happened by the Pakistan back terrorists. Yes we need to strengthen the security still you can't put the force at the every place.

 

[LordJames]

Despite Pakistan spend maximum money on defence , they can't even stop the Train Hijack and now entire Highway is taken control by BLA.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1916435456364859466

As I said a few days ago Baluchistan is a vast and harsh terrain and a landmass of roughly 44% of Pakistan.

J & K is tiny in comparison with hundreds of thousands of troops and state of the art SIGiNT network along with HUMINT.

I understand your desire to bring Pakistan into every conversation but deep down you know that this is a massive intelligence failure if it originate from the LOC and if it didn't then you have insurgency brewing in Jamnu.

I have given a map and explained this elsewhere.

 

[Devadwal]

As I said a few days ago Baluchistan is a vast and harsh terrain and a landmass of roughly 44% of Pakistan.

J & K is tiny in comparison with hundreds of thousands of troops and state of the art SIGiNT network along with HUMINT.

I understand your desire to bring Pakistan into every conversation but deep down you know that this is a massive intelligence failure if it originate from the LOC and if it didn't then you have insurgency brewing in Jamnu.

I have given a map and explained this elsewhere.

Do you even know geography of kashmir. lol

In Balochistan everyday 5 to 7 attacks happened while in Kashmir terrorist attacks frequency is way way less than .

Tell me How many attacks were happened yesterday in Balochistan .

 

[sweep_shot]

Indian military is overrated. They are mostly good at bullying defenseless Kashmiri civilians.

There was a reason why they lost 2000 sq km of land to China since 2020.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Indian military is overrated. They are mostly good at bullying defenseless Kashmiri civilians.

There was a reason why they lost 2000 sq km of land to China since 2020.

Sadly they've done more than bullying, some of the most heinous human abuses carried .

The large security or large numbers of troops aren't there to protect but to occupy. That's why many days later no suspect has been captured. They were likely torturing many until someone makes a confession to stop the brutality

 

[Devadwal]

Indian military is overrated. They are mostly good at bullying defenseless Kashmiri civilians.

There was a reason why they lost 2000 sq km of land to China since 2020.

Gave you a new identity in 71.

 

[Technics 1210]

Not sure how this is news given India is the largest recipient of foreign aid. India couldn't put itself on the map with all the resources so what chance will monopoly money make? Zilch. India couldn't defend itself from 30000 British troops, so what difference would Billions make? Zilch.

Indian doesn't have wealth, but has poverty in it

 

[Technics 1210]

PS. What difference does this all make anyway when IAF bomb their own countrymen for free.

 

[Technics 1210]

bhai... 5lac b hon... answer the simple question... Is Indian force that incompetent???

No need to be shocked. 25000 troops conquered India for 3 centuries, and Indians out numbered the British by at least 10000 to 1.

 

[IndoorCricket]

800,000 troops in Kashmir, yet incidents still occur. Are they incompetent???

Guess so,

IMF and other coutnries are bailing out Pakistan forever by pouring in billions of $. Why it is still on brink of collapse, terrorism at peak and no future and still begging for more funds? Why is that?

 

[cricketfan24]

IMF and other coutnries are bailing out Pakistan forever by pouring in billions of $. Why it is still on brink of collapse, terrorism at peak and no future and still begging for more funds? Why is that?

Who is shining? Shining pakistan or shining India?
We are a failed country what is india's excuse?

 

[hass]

Security can’t get it perfectly right on every square inch and tourists had never previously been targeted. Whether these were entirely local or state sponsored attackers the fact remains this is a horrible situation. Very worrying times for anyone that wants to see Pakistan in a better state. The conflict is going to escalate on multiple fronts and it will be regular people suffering not the generals, elites or politicians in power.

 

[Kianig89]

Mind you, this is political discussion and not stage show. One of the panelist lambast Ex-Maj for a victim remained helpless for 90 mins and no security reached there. The other defends it by arguing due to no recruitment during Covid 21, the military has shortage of workforce by 250,000.

The panelist then cite it as Ra&W failure but the other defends its by proverbial idioms "Mountains eat Men".

You cannot fight against terrain and that U.S has $800m budget.

 

[cricketfan24]

Mind you, this is political discussion and not stage show. One of the panelist lambast Ex-Maj for a victim remained helpless for 90 mins and no security reached there. The other defends it by arguing due to no recruitment during Covid 21, the military has shortage of workforce by 250,000.

The panelist then cite it as Ra&W failure but the other defends its by proverbial idioms "Mountains eat Men".

You cannot fight against terrain and that U.S has $800m budget.

For a moment I thought it was a Jeremy Kyle show

 

[Energy]

Security can’t get it perfectly right on every square inch and tourists had never previously been targeted. Whether these were entirely local or state sponsored attackers the fact remains this is a horrible situation. Very worrying times for anyone that wants to see Pakistan in a better state. The conflict is going to escalate on multiple fronts and it will be regular people suffering not the generals, elites or politicians in power.

And are you saying the state of the common folk in India is like Milan?

 

[Bhaijaan]

I recall hearing a comment long ago from a Pakistani defense analyst or perhaps an army officer who said that, given Pakistan’s limited resources, they focus intensely on training their pilots and officers to ensure they don’t squander expensive equipment during wartime. He remarked that F-16s aren’t toys to be handed over carelessly to just any noob pilot out there.

I can’t help but feel that this spirit of discipline and responsibility seems to be missing on our side. Despite the massive investments we’ve made in procuring state-of-the-art, incredibly expensive equipment, we continue to hear stories of operational blunders. It’s high time we start acting like a nation with finite resources once again, just as we did in earlier days, when our achievements often far outstripped the infrastructure and resources we had at our disposal.

Our performance in 1962,65,71 wrt our defense readiness was very good.

Kargil - not so much

Pulwama - Meh

2025 - Time will tell

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I recall hearing a comment long ago from a Pakistani defense analyst or perhaps an army officer who said that, given Pakistan’s limited resources, they focus intensely on training their pilots and officers to ensure they don’t squander expensive equipment during wartime. He remarked that F-16s aren’t toys to be handed over carelessly to just any noob pilot out there.

I can’t help but feel that this spirit of discipline and responsibility seems to be missing on our side. Despite the massive investments we’ve made in procuring state-of-the-art, incredibly expensive equipment, we continue to hear stories of operational blunders. It’s high time we start acting like a nation with finite resources once again, just as we did in earlier days, when our achievements often far outstripped the infrastructure and resources we had at our disposal.

Our performance in 1962,65,71 wrt our defense readiness was very good.

Kargil - not so much

Pulwama - Meh

2025 - Time will tell

Manohar Parrikar's untimely death has been a set back. He was the best defense minister we had. I don't think Rajnath understands long term structural reforms needed.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Not sure how you 100% prevent two guys from mowing down soft targets with firearms which are easily obtained and smuggled across the border.

I have been part of exercises like this where I have as a test got "firearms" into restricted areas.

Unless you are willing to to go all Israel like, not sure how its possible. we have a pretty good idea of how effective Israel Systems were

Does anyone here any training in this sort of stuff?

would love to hear from the experts on what must have done differently.

 

[straighttalk]

Probably thinking about the next move to make in cricket to feel powerful.....

Who knows this could be an indian army inside job like they did when Clinton came to a visit and 35 sikhs were killed and it turned out to be their own armed forces to be involved.

I found it interesting that the terrorist were wearing Indian army uniform with the emblems.

You guys are so delusional...9/11 is inside job Hamas butchery is inside job...Baloch attack is inside job..Pak school massacre is is inside job
. 26/11 is inside job..everything is inside job .except all have Islamic terrorism..its like a cancer

 

[LordJames]

I recall hearing a comment long ago from a Pakistani defense analyst or perhaps an army officer who said that, given Pakistan’s limited resources, they focus intensely on training their pilots and officers to ensure they don’t squander expensive equipment during wartime. He remarked that F-16s aren’t toys to be handed over carelessly to just any noob pilot out there.

I can’t help but feel that this spirit of discipline and responsibility seems to be missing on our side. Despite the massive investments we’ve made in procuring state-of-the-art, incredibly expensive equipment, we continue to hear stories of operational blunders. It’s high time we start acting like a nation with finite resources once again, just as we did in earlier days, when our achievements often far outstripped the infrastructure and resources we had at our disposal.

Our performance in 1962,65,71 wrt our defense readiness was very good.

Kargil - not so much

Pulwama - Meh

2025 - Time will tell

Before a Pakistani pilot ever gets into the cockpit of an F-16, he must undergo rigorous training—often in aging Mirage aircraft. This includes:

• Around 180 hours of flight time per month, with missions lasting up to 6 continuous hours, often with in-flight refueling, typically conducted over the harsh deserts of Sindh.
• Training for what is referred to as the “Abhinandan scenario” for decades: flying with no visibility (glass canopy covered with a sheet), communications disabled, and no radar. Each pilot completes over 100 hours of this specific training, with 80 hours being standard for all, every month.
• Mastery of the Mirage, a notoriously difficult aircraft to land due to its delta-wing configuration. Once a pilot logs hundreds of hours in it, transitioning to modern fighters like the F-16, JF-17, or J-10C becomes significantly easier.

In a (vintage) Mirage, you are disoreinted, you sweat, you puke and you lose weight because the machine is a ***** to fly! And you land it on Roads, Motorways and runways repeatedly beace PAF can repair it easily from the pounding it takes.

While the F-16 was once considered the tip of the spear, those days are over. Modern warfare is now driven by network-centric connectivity, an area where the Indian Air Force (IAF) still struggles. The IAF attempts to integrate Soviet-era platforms with NATO and Israeli weapons systems, but without cohesive digital interoperability, this remains a patchwork approach.

On the ground, the Pakistan Army still uses the German G3A3 (7.62mm) rifle. In contrast, India has shifted to Israeli 5.56mm rifles, prioritizing lighter weight. However, the 7.62mm round delivers significantly more lethality and penetration power—a crucial factor in actual combat. Despite debates over modernizing to newer platforms, the G3A3 remains widely favored by Pakistani soldiers and officers alike. Anyone who has fired both rounds will immediately recognize the power difference.

India’s war doctrine still echoes its Soviet roots, emphasizing massive artillery barrages. The Indian Army possesses vast artillery assets—Bofors and beyond—and relies heavily on pounding enemy positions. But Indian soldiers, unlike Russian ones, often lack the same size, training, or combat readiness. For 70 years, the doctrine has remained largely unchanged: pound, advance, repeat.

Kargil was a loss for Pakistan, not due to Indian superiority, but due to General Musharraf’s strategic blunder—failing to engage both the Pakistan Air Force and artillery. That decision allowed India to retake positions through airpower and overwhelming artillery.

That said, India does have clear advantages in naval strength, mountain warfare, and long-range artillery which Pakistan Army will seek to counter with cheap GPS guided rockets.

The core issue today isn’t the capability of Pakistan’s armed forces—but the will to fight, which has been severely undermined by politicization within the ranks and the promotion of Munir loyalists over merit.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, we are in a 1971 moment—not because of geography, firepower, or battlefield tactics, but because of Asim Munir. His leadership has created internal fractures that mirror the dangerous complacency and dysfunction that led to Pakistan’s greatest military defeat.

India knows that so from their point of view, the time to attack is now or never.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Before a Pakistani pilot ever gets into the cockpit of an F-16, he must undergo rigorous training—often in aging Mirage aircraft. This includes:

• Around 180 hours of flight time per month, with missions lasting up to 6 continuous hours, often with in-flight refueling, typically conducted over the harsh deserts of Sindh.
• Training for what is referred to as the “Abhinandan scenario” for decades: flying with no visibility (glass canopy covered with a sheet), communications disabled, and no radar. Each pilot completes over 100 hours of this specific training, with 80 hours being standard for all, every month.
• Mastery of the Mirage, a notoriously difficult aircraft to land due to its delta-wing configuration. Once a pilot logs hundreds of hours in it, transitioning to modern fighters like the F-16, JF-17, or J-10C becomes significantly easier.

In a (vintage) Mirage, you are disoreinted, you sweat, you puke and you lose weight because the machine is a ***** to fly! And you land it on Roads, Motorways and runways repeatedly beace PAF can repair it easily from the pounding it takes.

While the F-16 was once considered the tip of the spear, those days are over. Modern warfare is now driven by network-centric connectivity, an area where the Indian Air Force (IAF) still struggles. The IAF attempts to integrate Soviet-era platforms with NATO and Israeli weapons systems, but without cohesive digital interoperability, this remains a patchwork approach.

On the ground, the Pakistan Army still uses the German G3A3 (7.62mm) rifle. In contrast, India has shifted to Israeli 5.56mm rifles, prioritizing lighter weight. However, the 7.62mm round delivers significantly more lethality and penetration power—a crucial factor in actual combat. Despite debates over modernizing to newer platforms, the G3A3 remains widely favored by Pakistani soldiers and officers alike. Anyone who has fired both rounds will immediately recognize the power difference.

India’s war doctrine still echoes its Soviet roots, emphasizing massive artillery barrages. The Indian Army possesses vast artillery assets—Bofors and beyond—and relies heavily on pounding enemy positions. But Indian soldiers, unlike Russian ones, often lack the same size, training, or combat readiness. For 70 years, the doctrine has remained largely unchanged: pound, advance, repeat.

Kargil was a loss for Pakistan, not due to Indian superiority, but due to General Musharraf’s strategic blunder—failing to engage both the Pakistan Air Force and artillery. That decision allowed India to retake positions through airpower and overwhelming artillery.

That said, India does have clear advantages in naval strength, mountain warfare, and long-range artillery which Pakistan Army will seek to counter with cheap GPS guided rockets.

The core issue today isn’t the capability of Pakistan’s armed forces—but the will to fight, which has been severely undermined by politicization within the ranks and the promotion of Munir loyalists over merit.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, we are in a 1971 moment—not because of geography, firepower, or battlefield tactics, but because of Asim Munir. His leadership has created internal fractures that mirror the dangerous complacency and dysfunction that led to Pakistan’s greatest military defeat.

India knows that so from their point of view, the time to attack is now or never.

How do you compare Munir with previous army generals

 

[ElRaja]

great post @LordJames but i will disagree on the last point, i know ppl in the army, and whilst there is huge political dissent and unhappiness, there is no lack of motivation in fighting india, this is what the rank and file prepare for their whole lives, not to fight locals in the hills of the frontier.

i could go into a whole segway on 1971, which was fundamentally and ultimately a political and strategic failure, the performance of the rank and file pak army in holding on for how long they did in what became essentially enemy territory has been significantly under rated in the historical context of the surrender, which would and probably should have happened immediately being out numbered 3 to 1 in terms of men, further worsened with no supply replenishment.

i am one of the largest critics of the upper echelon of the pak armed forces, because they abuse the country and its resources, but the rank and file are some of the most willing and able soldiers and airmen you can find.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Before a Pakistani pilot ever gets into the cockpit of an F-16, he must undergo rigorous training—often in aging Mirage aircraft. This includes:

• Around 180 hours of flight time per month, with missions lasting up to 6 continuous hours, often with in-flight refueling, typically conducted over the harsh deserts of Sindh.
• Training for what is referred to as the “Abhinandan scenario” for decades: flying with no visibility (glass canopy covered with a sheet), communications disabled, and no radar. Each pilot completes over 100 hours of this specific training, with 80 hours being standard for all, every month.
• Mastery of the Mirage, a notoriously difficult aircraft to land due to its delta-wing configuration. Once a pilot logs hundreds of hours in it, transitioning to modern fighters like the F-16, JF-17, or J-10C becomes significantly easier.

In a (vintage) Mirage, you are disoreinted, you sweat, you puke and you lose weight because the machine is a ***** to fly! And you land it on Roads, Motorways and runways repeatedly beace PAF can repair it easily from the pounding it takes.

While the F-16 was once considered the tip of the spear, those days are over. Modern warfare is now driven by network-centric connectivity, an area where the Indian Air Force (IAF) still struggles. The IAF attempts to integrate Soviet-era platforms with NATO and Israeli weapons systems, but without cohesive digital interoperability, this remains a patchwork approach.

On the ground, the Pakistan Army still uses the German G3A3 (7.62mm) rifle. In contrast, India has shifted to Israeli 5.56mm rifles, prioritizing lighter weight. However, the 7.62mm round delivers significantly more lethality and penetration power—a crucial factor in actual combat. Despite debates over modernizing to newer platforms, the G3A3 remains widely favored by Pakistani soldiers and officers alike. Anyone who has fired both rounds will immediately recognize the power difference.

India’s war doctrine still echoes its Soviet roots, emphasizing massive artillery barrages. The Indian Army possesses vast artillery assets—Bofors and beyond—and relies heavily on pounding enemy positions. But Indian soldiers, unlike Russian ones, often lack the same size, training, or combat readiness. For 70 years, the doctrine has remained largely unchanged: pound, advance, repeat.

Kargil was a loss for Pakistan, not due to Indian superiority, but due to General Musharraf’s strategic blunder—failing to engage both the Pakistan Air Force and artillery. That decision allowed India to retake positions through airpower and overwhelming artillery.

That said, India does have clear advantages in naval strength, mountain warfare, and long-range artillery which Pakistan Army will seek to counter with cheap GPS guided rockets.

The core issue today isn’t the capability of Pakistan’s armed forces—but the will to fight, which has been severely undermined by politicization within the ranks and the promotion of Munir loyalists over merit.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, we are in a 1971 moment—not because of geography, firepower, or battlefield tactics, but because of Asim Munir. His leadership has created internal fractures that mirror the dangerous complacency and dysfunction that led to Pakistan’s greatest military defeat.

India knows that so from their point of view, the time to attack is now or never.

How do they fare in regards to cyber war , drones , AI ?

 

[LordJames]

How do they fare in regards to cyber war , drones , AI ?

Chok şükür endişelenecek bir şey yok

great post @LordJames but i will disagree on the last point, i know ppl in the army, and whilst there is huge political dissent and unhappiness, there is no lack of motivation in fighting india, this is what the rank and file prepare for their whole lives, not to fight locals in the hills of the frontier.

i could go into a whole segway on 1971, which was fundamentally and ultimately a political and strategic failure, the performance of the rank and file pak army in holding on for how long they did in what became essentially enemy territory has been significantly under rated in the historical context of the surrender, which would and probably should have happened immediately being out numbered 3 to 1 in terms of men, further worsened with no supply replenishment.

i am one of the largest critics of the upper echelon of the pak armed forces, because they abuse the country and its resources, but the rank and file are some of the most willing and able soldiers and airmen you can find.

I agree with much of what you've said regarding the JCOs, NCOs, and officers who will be at the frontlines tactically engaging with India. On the tactical level, I believe the Pakistani soldier, airman, and sailor remain highly motivated, committed, and capable.

However, with all due respect, I disagree at the strategic level—because the leadership of the Pakistan Army lacks clarity, focus, and vision. This disconnect between battlefield competence and strategic direction is where the real danger lies.

We saw something similar in 1971: despite massive strategic failures and political blunders, the JCOs, NCOs, officers of the Pakistan Army, and the sailors of the Navy performed with extraordinary courage and sacrifice. Their stories often get overshadowed by the war’s outcome, but they fought with heart and resolve far beyond their means.

And despite all this, I continue to hold a firm belief in the eventual outcome of the coming India-Pakistan confrontation—not based on institutions, but on something far deeper and more enduring.

Here is Brigadier Yasub Dogar calmly drinking tea in Afghanistan while Soviet armored columns are being ambushed in the background.

How do you compare Munir with previous army generals

Here.

A full-scale war between India and Pakistan appears inevitable—and it may very well be the last war between these two nation-states. While I fully expect the Indian Army to make quick territorial gains if they choose to launch a major offensive, in the long run, it will be disastrous for India. The aftermath could resemble the devastation seen in places like Syria or Iraq, with chaos on the streets and the collapse of internal stability.

The real issue is that both Pakistanis and Indians are trapped in flawed assumptions:

• India tends to view Pakistan purely through superficial nation-state metrics—GDP, military budget, economic indicators—and assumes it's weak and ripe for the taking.
• Many Pakistanis, on the other hand, are religiously underinformed and operate under the belief that Pakistan holds a divinely ordained status, often living within the fantasy of a "Ghazwatul-Hind" narrative.

In turbulent times, we see secular or liberal figures in Pakistan adopting religious symbolism to gain popularity—Palwasha Khan is a prime example, and her background speaks volumes. Ironically, India is ruled today by a deeply religious party and leadership, while no religious party or scholar has ever come close to ruling Pakistan. Even Imran Khan and PTI, while conservative in tone, are far from representing Islamic governance—though Imran is undeniably sincere and honest.

If and when India fully invades, the conflict will transcend geopolitics—it will be framed as a confrontation between Hinduism and Islam. And in such a framing, Hinduism cannot prevail. Muslims, for their part, have no desire to commit genocide against Hindus or to destroy their places of worship or belief systems. A look at history shows that most conversions to Islam in the subcontinent were not forced, but willing choices driven by spiritual conviction and social transformation.

Yet, until such a moment arrives, we will continue to vilify historical figures like Aurangzeb, and keep debating "Ghar Wapsi" and alleged forced conversions that happened centuries ago.

The truth is, Muslims and scholars who chose to remain in India in 1947—including my own forefathers—made a historic miscalculation. Their attempt to prove loyalty to the Indian state has gained them little in return, and they continue to pay the price for abandoning the idea of an Islamic polity.

The coming conflict will not be solely about Pakistan—nor will it be led only by Pakistani Muslims. Something far broader is brewing.

Time will reveal what’s next.

 

[LordJames]

Keep thinking that the conflict is between India and Pakistan...

1. Egyptian: Mohammad Hijab
2. Bangaldeshi: Dilly Hussain
3. Tunisian: Sami Hamdi
4. British Revert: Xavier

 

[Bhaijaan]

If and when India fully invades, the conflict will transcend geopolitics—it will be framed as a confrontation between Hinduism and Islam. And in such a framing, Hinduism cannot prevail. Muslims, for their part, have no desire to commit genocide against Hindus or to destroy their places of worship or belief systems.

This is exactly where our ideological divide begins, and where Pakistani delusion hits a wall.

It’s your regime and its supporters who constantly attempt to frame the Bharat-Pakistan conflict as a religious war between Islam and Hinduis when the truth is that no one ever appointed Pakistan as the leader of the Islamic world. Rather most of the prominent Muslim nations have already condemned the recent attack not to support Bharat per se, but to defend principles of territorial integrity and the fight against terrorism.

If Kashmir was truly a pan-Islamic jihad, these countries would have supported your so-called freedom fighters mujahideens instead of isolating Pakistan diplomatically.

Pakistan’s attempts to create an Islam vs. Hinduism narrative have failed repeatedly. Within just 25 years of Pakistan’s creation, half your muslim brothers broke away. Today Pakistan is literally reduced to Punjabistan symbolically with Baloch, Sindhis, and Pashtuns feeling more alienated than ever before.

As bad as the situation of Muslims maybe in Bharat, fact is they’re denouncing your narrative today and are calling Pakistan state unislamic. This rejection of your narrative from within the Muslim community in Bharat is unprecedented and telling. It’s clear that Muslims in Bharat are distancing themselves from Pakistan not out of fear, but because they no longer want to be associated with a failed, radicalized state.

Pakistan’s current regime is little more than a Punjabi military elite propped up by a dwindling list of allies, mostly authoritarian regimes like Turkey and Bangladesh, with Iran swinging unpredictably. Even Turkey’s support is transactional, tied to arms sales and regional rivalries with Bharat drifting towards Israeli, Saudi lobby in the region and investing in an economic corridor that bypasses Turkey. Iran isnt ever going to do anything ever, they don’t want Bharat, US to seriously prop up the Balochistan issue internationally. With a blink of an eye Balochistan will become the next humanitarian cause for the woke world. It just takes a few moves.

As for Bangladesh, despite all the bhaichara talk, they’re still waiting for you to pay back $4 billion. When is that happening?

 

[LordJames]

This is exactly where our ideological divide begins, and where Pakistani delusion hits a wall.

It’s your regime and its supporters who constantly attempt to frame the Bharat-Pakistan conflict as a religious war between Islam and Hinduis when the truth is that no one ever appointed Pakistan as the leader of the Islamic world. Rather most of the prominent Muslim nations have already condemned the recent attack not to support Bharat per se, but to defend principles of territorial integrity and the fight against terrorism.

If Kashmir was truly a pan-Islamic jihad, these countries would have supported your so-called freedom fighters mujahideens instead of isolating Pakistan diplomatically.

Pakistan’s attempts to create an Islam vs. Hinduism narrative have failed repeatedly. Within just 25 years of Pakistan’s creation, half your muslim brothers broke away. Today Pakistan is literally reduced to Punjabistan symbolically with Baloch, Sindhis, and Pashtuns feeling more alienated than ever before.

As bad as the situation of Muslims maybe in Bharat, fact is they’re denouncing your narrative today and are calling Pakistan state unislamic. This rejection of your narrative from within the Muslim community in Bharat is unprecedented and telling. It’s clear that Muslims in Bharat are distancing themselves from Pakistan not out of fear, but because they no longer want to be associated with a failed, radicalized state.

Pakistan’s current regime is little more than a Punjabi military elite propped up by a dwindling list of allies, mostly authoritarian regimes like Turkey and Bangladesh, with Iran swinging unpredictably. Even Turkey’s support is transactional, tied to arms sales and regional rivalries with Bharat drifting towards Israeli, Saudi lobby in the region and investing in an economic corridor that bypasses Turkey. Iran isnt ever going to do anything ever, they don’t want Bharat, US to seriously prop up the Balochistan issue internationally. With a blink of an eye Balochistan will become the next humanitarian cause for the woke world. It just takes a few moves.

As for Bangladesh, despite all the bhaichara talk, they’re still waiting for you to pay back $4 billion. When is that happening?

I'm speaking about a global religion followed by 1.5 billion people, while you're framing everything through the lens of Westphalian nation-states—we're clearly talking past each other. Please, go on...

Exactly the issue which I am discussing

 

[rpant_gabba]

Not sure how you 100% prevent two guys from mowing down soft targets with firearms which are easily obtained and smuggled across the border.

I have been part of exercises like this where I have as a test got "firearms" into restricted areas.

Unless you are willing to to go all Israel like, not sure how its possible. we have a pretty good idea of how effective Israel Systems were

Does anyone here any training in this sort of stuff?

would love to hear from the experts on what must have done differently.

<Bump>

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is exactly where our ideological divide begins, and where Pakistani delusion hits a wall.

It’s your regime and its supporters who constantly attempt to frame the Bharat-Pakistan conflict as a religious war between Islam and Hinduis when the truth is that no one ever appointed Pakistan as the leader of the Islamic world. Rather most of the prominent Muslim nations have already condemned the recent attack not to support Bharat per se, but to defend principles of territorial integrity and the fight against terrorism.

If Kashmir was truly a pan-Islamic jihad, these countries would have supported your so-called freedom fighters mujahideens instead of isolating Pakistan diplomatically.

Pakistan’s attempts to create an Islam vs. Hinduism narrative have failed repeatedly. Within just 25 years of Pakistan’s creation, half your muslim brothers broke away. Today Pakistan is literally reduced to Punjabistan symbolically with Baloch, Sindhis, and Pashtuns feeling more alienated than ever before.

As bad as the situation of Muslims maybe in Bharat, fact is they’re denouncing your narrative today and are calling Pakistan state unislamic. This rejection of your narrative from within the Muslim community in Bharat is unprecedented and telling. It’s clear that Muslims in Bharat are distancing themselves from Pakistan not out of fear, but because they no longer want to be associated with a failed, radicalized state.

Pakistan’s current regime is little more than a Punjabi military elite propped up by a dwindling list of allies, mostly authoritarian regimes like Turkey and Bangladesh, with Iran swinging unpredictably. Even Turkey’s support is transactional, tied to arms sales and regional rivalries with Bharat drifting towards Israeli, Saudi lobby in the region and investing in an economic corridor that bypasses Turkey. Iran isnt ever going to do anything ever, they don’t want Bharat, US to seriously prop up the Balochistan issue internationally. With a blink of an eye Balochistan will become the next humanitarian cause for the woke world. It just takes a few moves.

As for Bangladesh, despite all the bhaichara talk, they’re still waiting for you to pay back $4 billion. When is that happening?

The Arabs and the Turks, and to be honest, most of the rest of the Muslim world don't really see Pakistan as separate from India. Partition was relatively recent in world history, traditionally they will view India as a whole, and an area being surrounded by Islamic nations, as a natural part of the Muslim Ummah. Hinduism is no threat for them, why would they be hostile to a nation they see as part of their body?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I saw news of a former RAW chief describing the attacks as an Indian security failure, advocating for back channel diplomacy and talking down an all out war.

I don't think the guy knows what he is talking about about. I prefer the analysis of @Rajdeep and @Devadwal to a former spy chief.

 

[Bhaijaan]

The Arabs and the Turks, and to be honest, most of the rest of the Muslim world don't really see Pakistan as separate from India. Partition was relatively recent in world history, traditionally they will view India as a whole, and an area being surrounded by Islamic nations, as a natural part of the Muslim Ummah. Hinduism is no threat for them, why would they be hostile to a nation they see as part of their body?

I have observed foreigners comments on social media and honestly they view the people from the subcontinent as either inferior to them or they despise them all. I saw posts with headline whom would you support between Bharat & Pakistan and majority of the replies were more like let them kill each other the world would be a better place. Thats been the general consensus that i felt. Sometimes its Islamophonic and more Bharat supportive and in muslim nations sometimes its more pro Pakistan and anti Bharat but more or less they are generally racist towards us.

I hope people realize this.
No matter how much the Pakistanis try to become Arabic and no matter how much Bharatiyas think they're becoming the sweetheart of the West, truth is we have always been ONE nation and they see us as collectively as piece of ****.

 

[Bhaijaan]

I'm speaking about a global religion followed by 1.5 billion people, while you're framing everything through the lens of Westphalian nation-states—we're clearly talking past each other. Please, go on...

Exactly the issue which I am discussing

Ancient religions like Sanatan & Judaism have stood strong for millenniums. To think of that Sanatan only ever had control of one nation & Judaism has been homeless for ages and they're still as strong as ever is a proof of their resilience in the face of ultra aggression and expansionism push from Christianity & Islam for centuries. I am no expert on Judaism but Sanatan is looking at entering another age of prominence whereas a few recent religions are literally walking on thin-ice in today's political climate and do not look future ready.

 

[daytrader]

A deadly attack happened in one of the most sensitive and supposedly “well-guarded” areas in the country

It's not their country. Kashmir is a disputed area. Makes zero sense to promote tourism there in the first place.

 

[rpant_gabba]

I saw news of a former RAW chief describing the attacks as an Indian security failure, advocating for back channel diplomacy and talking down an all out war.

I don't think the guy knows what he is talking about about. I prefer the analysis of @Rajdeep and @Devadwal to a former spy chief.

A. S. Dulat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

>>In 2018, he co-authored The Spy Chronicles: RAW, ISI and the Illusion of Peace with Asad Durrani, former head of the Inter-Services Intelligence.[7]<<<

Guy with a serious case of GNV. If he was any good at his job, the Kashmir situation wouldn't have been half bad.

Good thing his breed is dying out. Can't happen soon enough.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

A. S. Dulat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

>>In 2018, he co-authored The Spy Chronicles: RAW, ISI and the Illusion of Peace with Asad Durrani, former head of the Inter-Services Intelligence.[7]<<<

Guy with a serious case of GNV. If he was any good at his job, the Kashmir situation wouldn't have been half bad.

Good thing his breed is dying out. Can't happen soon enough.

Have you read the book?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Have you read the book?

Don't need to. He was brought up in the Nehruvian non-sense way. His job was to protect and act against threats to India. Not create his own policy and certainly not write book with the guy who was in charge of hurting India.

I'll repeat: the aman ki asha/GNV infested generation can't die out soon enough