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Does Jasprit Bumrah have a legal action?

Nikhil_cric said:
Didnt stop him from chucking recently. A serial chucker like him should be permanently banned from bowling.
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Again you are making very immature comments here.


Hafeez same action has been tested and has been cleared. How can you claim he is chucking? When the same action got cleared by ICC
 
Can someone post the Sky sports video here so that we can see what the hullabaloo is about..
 
Bewal Express said:
Look at a few posts above and you will see a guy with a 22 degree hyperextension. Are you saying that he could do the same with a 34 degree.
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How difficult it is to understand that the degree of hyper extension doesn't matter since it is not considered illegal.
 
90MPH said:
Well if Bhajee can Chuck his way to 400 Test wickets then not sure why you are whining about Hafeez who doesn’t even turn most balls.

Anyway this match is a draw so it’s a meaningless 5 for :yk2
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Bhajji was and rightfully called out for bowling doosra with a shady action and he stopped it.

Hafeez has probably had a world record for being called out for chucking and remodeling his action so many times.

Obviously he will bowl with a remodeled action till things get a bit critical for Pakistan :) if you know what I mean.
 
cricketjoshila said:
How difficult it is to understand that the degree of hyper extension doesn't matter since it is not considered illegal.
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But you posted that the degree can't be controlled by the bowler. So if that is true he should be able to reproduce the 34 degrees every time he bowls irrespective of pace. Or are we regretting posting the quote
 
street cricketer said:
Well yes because hypermobile joints are not exactly common.

I'm not sure what your point is. It is impossible to lock your elbow joint at 180 degrees for people with hyperextension because the force will naturally thrust the forearm backward/extend beyond the normal range, i.e., hyperextension. If they could lock their elbow joint at 180 degrees like most people, then they wouldn't have hyperextension in the first place.
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My point? Read my first post.

Bewal Express said:
Hyperextension or no Hyperextension - the rule is 15 degrees and he is well over double that.
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cricketjoshila said:
Hyper extension is perfectly legal. Its natural to that person. Its not a medical condition.
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So this is the point and no one has cited ICC regulations: is hyperextension allowed? If so should it be allowed considering if a bowlers elbow goes from 214 degrees to less than 180 degrees.
 
captain.hansolo said:
Not at the time of release. Additionally it’s a hyper extension I.e. opposite direction to the one in which the angle is measured.
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Well on the broadcast, Bumrahs arm is shown to bend forward not just back as you are describing, and it was compared to shamis release. It was strikingly different. Can an elbow hyperextension forward? That's literally chucking haha
 
Bewal Express said:
But you posted that the degree
can't be controlled by the bowler. So if that is true he should be able to reproduce the 34 degrees every time he bowls irrespective of pace. Or are we regretting posting the quote
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How does it matter if its 34 or 12 or 20 degrees of hyper extension? Its legal.
 
mastimasti said:
Well on the broadcast, Bumrahs arm is shown to bend forward not just back as you are describing, and it was compared to shamis release. It was strikingly different. Can an elbow hyperextension forward? That's literally chucking haha
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Thats the optical illusion of the hyper extension.
 
mastimasti said:
My point? Read my first post.





So this is the point and no one has cited ICC regulations: is hyperextension allowed? If so should it be allowed considering if a bowlers elbow goes from 214 degrees to less than 180 degrees.
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Icc statement on hyper extension has been posted on this thread.
 
Guys keep all comments on the technical side of things.

Don't worry yourself about why people are posting on this thread etc.
 
mastimasti said:
My point? Read my first post.
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Well post the video of the Sky analysis you're talking about and let's see if it's legal or not.

Otherwise simply calling the action illegal with no sort of 'technical analysis' other than "it looks dodgy to me" kinda sounds like sour grapes, considering both Bumrah and Ashwin (whose action has also been called suspect) are India's best bowlers.
 
Bewal Express said:
They test bowlers from all countries bar Ind.
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Because Indian bowlers are reported in the domestic arena itself before jumping in to international. That's the work ethic of BCCI. Other boards should learn how to address it before letting it be a problem.
 
Bewal Express said:
They test bowlers from all countries bar Ind.
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Harbhajan's action was reported as suspect twice in his career and underwent testing to clear his action in the ICC's biometrics center. Rayudu and Dhawan have also been reported by the umpires for having suspect actions but they didn't bother bowling since.

Pragyan Ojha got banned by the BCCI itself for having a suspect action in the midst of a Ranji season. Perhaps the PCB should have taken similar steps to ban Hafeez or Ajmal and asked them to remedy their actions, and they wouldn't have been reported by the umpires for having a suspect action.
 
Bewal Express said:
If he hyperextension relative to his pace then its a variable he can control.
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But even if he can control his hyperextension, ICC does not consider hyperextension as chucking.

Do you consider Malinga a chucker?
 
MenInG said:
Guys keep all comments on the technical side of things.

Don't worry yourself about why people are posting on this thread etc.
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Reminder.

If you have an opinion on the technical side of things, that's fine and we welcome that.
 
I have had a read of the ICC's regulations, and they exclude hyperextension, but there is no limit provided on the degrees of hyperextension, except a table which records the degree of movement (if beyond 10 degrees). I find that quite interesting, especially as Holding mentions both Shami and Bumrah have an hyperextension of the elbow but Shami's clearly much more limited than Bumrah's. It's an interesting situation.
 
I don't think English players and commentators will keep quite about him being with an illegal action.
They have more to lose than normal fans like us.
And also that puts pressure on indians as well, so they will not miss something like this.
 
loves_cricket said:
I don't think English players and commentators will keep quite about him being with an illegal action.
They have more to lose than normal fans like us.
And also that puts pressure on indians as well, so they will not miss something like this.
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But they have missed it.

And I doubt anyone would complain in fear of losing their jobs.
 
street cricketer said:
Harbhajan's action was reported as suspect twice in his career and underwent testing to clear his action in the ICC's biometrics center. Rayudu and Dhawan have also been reported by the umpires for having suspect actions but they didn't bother bowling since.

Pragyan Ojha got banned by the BCCI itself for having a suspect action in the midst of a Ranji season. Perhaps the PCB should have taken similar steps to ban Hafeez or Ajmal and asked them to remedy their actions, and they wouldn't have been reported by the umpires for having a suspect action.
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The pcb are doing this with the newly created LUMS. Whilst not strictly calling out in the domestic games (I don’t watch so can’t know in the uk) I do know that they are testing their local players informally. Though a little belatedly.

But what is really getting my goat right now is why ashwin and bumrah are being touted as chuckers by nobody but pak cricket fans. I mean they are good for the game and it’s up to the umpires to call them or not. Even hafeez has only been marginal and been called after playing for near on 10 years. If it isn’t obvious to the naked eye or proven hyperextension leave for the scientific experts
 
mastimasti said:
I have had a read of the ICC's regulations, and they exclude hyperextension, but there is no limit provided on the degrees of hyperextension, except a table which records the degree of movement (if beyond 10 degrees). I find that quite interesting, especially as Holding mentions both Shami and Bumrah have an hyperextension of the elbow but Shami's clearly much more limited than Bumrah's. It's an interesting situation.
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So if hyper extension is excluded then what's the problem?
 
Dr_Bassim said:
But even if he can control his hyperextension, ICC does not consider hyperextension as chucking.

Do you consider Malinga a chucker?
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He fails to understand that ICC runs the game.If they say something is legal then that's legal. There is no confusion.

Secondly, today ICC, experts, commies all understand biomechanics much better and hence they won't be calling hyper extension as chucking and the bowler wont be reported for testing.
 
cricketjoshila said:
He fails to understand that ICC runs the game.If they say something is legal then that's legal. There is no confusion.

Secondly, today ICC, experts, commies all understand biomechanics much better and hence they won't be calling hyper extension as chucking and the bowler wont be reported for testing.
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Can you tell me if any Commentator ever called Ajmal or Hafeez as chucker?

Fact is that only umpires will make these reports - whether they have guts to make such reports against India is another issue.
 
The Indian IPL has become the employer of choice for many cricketers and umpires because of the big wages, so people are scared to criticise anything about India at the meet because they don't want to lose their meal ticket. Also, there is the fact that England and Australia are just happy to have another cricket powerhouse in the world, both financial and sporting. They love to have competition and good matches it also earns more money. It's why Australia were so disappointed even angry at Misbah's ill-judged Pakistan team's embarrassing performance there: Ponting said "this was the worst bowling team ever to come to Australia". England and Australia don't like pushover matches.

I don't know if Bumrah's action is illegal, but it's certainly ugly and I find it painful to watch, I don't know what damage he's doing to his body in the long term. At the very least it should be tested, then if he's cleared then move on. I think Sky knew what they were doing when they showed those side-on pictures, they put them up; but it would have been too controversial to say anything outright.
 
MenInG said:
Can you tell me if any Commentator ever called Ajmal or Hafeez as chucker?

Fact is that only umpires will make these reports - whether they have guts to make such reports against India is another issue.
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Many of commies raised questions on Ajmal. They even super imposed a protractor on his action in live telecast to point out how much he was bending the elbow.
 
MenInG said:
Can you tell me if any Commentator ever called Ajmal or Hafeez as chucker?

Fact is that only umpires will make these reports - whether they have guts to make such reports against India is another issue.
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They had guts to report Harbhajan, who ultimately stopped bowling the doosra.

Icc cleared Ajmal once. Commies and experts on tv continued to raise questions. Ultimately ICC had to bring in stricter protocols for testing.
 
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cricketjoshila said:
They had guts to report Harbhajan, who ultimately stopped bowling the doosra.

Icc cleared Ajmal once. Commies and experts on tv continued to raise questions. Ultimately ICC had to bring in stricter protocols for testing.
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I dont recall ONE TV Commentator who said "Hey look Ajmal is chucking"
 
Dr_Bassim said:
But even if he can control his hyperextension, ICC does not consider hyperextension as chucking.

Do you consider Malinga a chucker?
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Maybe i havent made my point clear- firstly, we have no evidence that its hyperextension. Then as we saw with images( showing a 22 degree hyperextension) you can test if he has a 34 degree hyperextension, if he cant get his arm to bend backwards by 34 degrees in the lab, then he is chucking.

Malinga was a chucker at times, he was quite subtle at times but didnt do it all the time
 
cricketjoshila said:
He fails to understand that ICC runs the game.If they say something is legal then that's legal. There is no confusion.

Secondly, today ICC, experts, commies all understand biomechanics much better and hence they won't be calling hyper extension as chucking and the bowler wont be reported for testing.
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Do you think that Bumrah can hyperextend 34 degrees in the lab when not bowling? If he cant, what would that tell you
 
Bewal Express said:
Here is the thing, you have no proof at all that he is hyperextending. He is blatant chucker and needs to be tested
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images (8).jpg

This is called hyperextension at the elbow joint in medical parlance. It's not really a complicated terminology, basically the elbow bending backwards is called hyperextension.
 
cricketjoshila said:
They put super imposed a protractor on his action and showed he was bending and straightening it more than the 15 degrees.
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Only after he was reported - no one had the guts to say that before.
 
street cricketer said:
View attachment 111080

This is called hyperextension at the elbow joint in medical parlance. It's not really a complicated terminology, basically the elbow bending backwards is called hyperextension.
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Its difficult to explain hyperextension to layman bcoz its rare medical condition. I have hyperextending joints & most people cannot believe their eyes when they see my elbows and joints
 
street cricketer said:
View attachment 111080

This is called hyperextension at the elbow joint in medical parlance. It's not really a complicated terminology, basically the elbow bending backwards is called hyperextension.
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Many indian fans useď to call Akhtar a chucker too without understanding hyperextension. They should all apologize to Akhtar. :inti
Shoaib-Akhtar-displaying-upper-arm-external-rotation-and-elbow-hyperextension.png
 
cricketjoshila said:
2011 article of kamran Abbasi after Holding did the protractor thing

https://www.espn.in/cricket/story/_...-michael-holding-criticism-saeed-ajmal-action


When Holding urged his commentary colleagues to judge Ajmal's action from a front-on angle, with the use of a clumsy protractor graphic
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Holding is one of the most outspoken critics on chucking ( openly questioned Murali & Ajmal ) and also never spares any chance to take potshots at BCCI & IPL

But even he has never mentioned a word on Bumrah. Thats the best proof for me :P
 
street cricketer said:
View attachment 111080

This is called hyperextension at the elbow joint in medical parlance. It's not really a complicated terminology, basically the elbow bending backwards is called hyperextension.
Click to expand...

So he should be able to reproduce the 34 degrees in the lab. If he can only produce say 22 degrees, where does the other 12 degrees come from. Do you see my point and that's why he needs to be tested
 
Bewal Express said:
So he should be able to reproduce the 34 degrees in the lab. If he can only produce say 22 degrees, where does the other 12 degrees come from. Do you see my point and that's why he needs to be tested
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Hyper extension of any degree is legal.

First you were arguing about where is the law on hyper extension. Now when that is no more sustainable you are bringing another nonsensical argument.
 
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Bewal Express said:
So he should be able to reproduce the 34 degrees in the lab. If he can only produce say 22 degrees, where does the other 12 degrees come from. Do you see my point and that's why he needs to be tested
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As long as its hyper extension, its legal. It can be 10 12 34 or anything. Its legal, it cannot be controlled.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Hyper extension of any degree is legal.

First you were arguing about where is the law on hyper extension. Now when that is no more sustainable you are bringing another nonsensical argument.
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The law to me is clear and that anything more than 15 degrees is chucking. But even using your logic, there will be a maximum to his hyperextension, and if for example they test him and he has 22 degrees and then we find in matches its 34 degree, where will the 12 degrees come from. That's why he needs to be tested.
 
Bewal Express said:
The law to me is clear and that anything more than 15 degrees is chucking. But even using your logic, there will be a maximum to his hyperextension, and if for example they test him and he has 22 degrees and then we find in matches its 34 degree, where will the 12 degrees come from. That's why he needs to be tested.
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The law is what ICC says it is. They say hyper extension is legal. What anyone else says is immaterial.

Hyper extension is not controlled by the individual. Its not like how you normally bend your elbow.

What do you mean by where 12 degrees will come from? Are you understanding what hyper extension is?

You can extend your elbow to 180 degrees when fully striaght. Bumrah's may be 190 or 200 or 220. Now when bowling his elbow goes beyond the 180 to lets says 220 and again comes back to 180 when delivering the ball. Thats perfectly legal.

Problem will be if i flex( this is flexion and not extension, they are two different movements of the elbow joint) my elbow to 160 degrees and then straighten or extend it to 180 degrees its illegal.
 
cricketjoshila said:
The law is what ICC says it is. They say hyper extension is legal. What anyone else says is immaterial.

Hyper extension is not controlled by the individual. Its not like how you normally bend your elbow.

What do you mean by where 12 degrees will come from? Are you understanding what hyper extension is?

You can extend your elbow to 180 degrees when fully striaght. Bumrah's may be 190 or 200 or 220. Now when bowling his elbow goes beyond the 180 to lets says 220 and again comes back to 180 when delivering the ball. Thats perfectly legal.

Problem will be if i flex( this is flexion and not extension, they are two different movements of the elbow joint) my elbow to 160 degrees and then straighten or extend it to 180 degrees its illegal.
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So if I understand you, what you are saying that Bumrahs hyperextension is infinite( as far as the body allows) and no test is possible. That is just rubbish
Let me you ask again, if he is tested and it's 22 degrees in the lab and in matches he is 34 degrees, where does the extra 12 degrees come from.
 
Bewal Express said:
So if I understand you, what you are saying that Bumrahs hyperextension is infinite( as far as the body allows) and no test is possible. That is just rubbish
Let me you ask again, if he is tested and it's 22 degrees in the lab and in matches he is 34 degrees, where does the extra 12 degrees come from.
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Hyper extension is as far as the body allows it. Its not under his control.

As i said ICC says its legal and that's it .

You saying its rubbish is immaterial.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Hyper extension is as far as the body allows it. Its not under his control.

As i said ICC says its legal and that's it .

You saying its rubbish is immaterial.
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Here is a lady with a maximum 15 degrees hyperextension, if she was a bowler and and its measured at let's say 25 degrees, what would you put the extra 10 degrees down to. That's the reason it's not unreasonable to test him.
newsletter16_hyper_elbow.gif
 
Bewal Express said:
Because if she was a chucker, she could use her condition and abuse it. That's the reason Bumrah and all others that use this need to be tested.
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How can you chuck with hyper extension? Chucking is extension of arm of more than 15 degrees from flexed position.

Hyper extension is opposite of that. There is no flexion involved here.
 
cricketjoshila said:
How can you chuck with hyper extension? Chucking is extension of arm of more than 15 degrees from flexed position.

Hyper extension is opposite of that. There is no flexion involved here.
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Easily, use the condition. It's not really rocket science. It's the reason all bowlers that are chuckers need to be tested.
 
Bumrah should be tested in a biomechanics lab to silence his critics.Data collected from the lab will prove if he is a chucker or not.There is no point having endless discussions on cricket forums.
 
Wasn't Shoaib also banned for chucking in 99' despite his hyperextension? He got tested and cleared by the ICC to remove doubt so I see no reason why Bumrah can't do the same especially given how much power the BCCI and Indian cricket has on the cricketing world, so preferential treatment is not out of the question even if it's a doubt. Yes, you can't be calling everything that Indian crickets do, willy-nilly, but clearly, Bumrah and Ashwin's actions are a contentious point.
 
IcedCoffee said:
Wasn't Shoaib also banned for chucking in 99' despite his hyperextension? He got tested and cleared by the ICC to remove doubt so I see no reason why Bumrah can't do the same especially given how much power the BCCI and Indian cricket has on the cricketing world, so preferential treatment is not out of the question even if it's a doubt. Yes, you can't be calling everything that Indian crickets do, willy-nilly, but clearly, Bumrah and Ashwin's actions are a contentious point.
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Ashwin's action? Its as clear as daylight.

The only time he bent his elbow was when he copied Narine's action and told in a PC that he is trying to use more elbow as others are doing so. Some months after this incident, ICC brought in stricter protocols.

This is 2021. Bio mechanics and research in last decade has made ICC change the rules. So what happened to Akhtar in 1999 has no implications.
 
Artaxerxes said:
Bumrah should be tested in a biomechanics lab to silence his critics.Data collected from the lab will prove if he is a chucker or not.There is no point having endless discussions on cricket forums.
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Who are these critics? Experts? Umpires? Who?
 
cricketjoshila said:
Who are these critics? Experts? Umpires? Who?
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Lots of sports writers and ex-cricketers have raised suspicions but umpires are very reluctant to call any Indian bowlers.I can guarantee you that if a Pakistani,Bangladeshi or Sri Lankan had the same action they would have been called checkers.
 
Ian bishop once said in commentery box "I cannot believe some people questioning the legality of Jasprit Bumrah’s action,” Bishop said during commentary. “His action is unique but is well within the rules of the game. In fact, it’s one of the cleanest ones. Some people really need to look in the mirror” Bishop said slamming the doubters.
 
Its funny how the whole actual Cricket world think Bumrah's action is clear and keyboard warriors think there is a problem. Indian or not, if his action was in doubt, it would be called. I understand BCCI having boards in their pocket but there are voices in ICC and amongst umpires who will not stand the bullying/ imposition of the BCCI and will call out if there is a doubt, even if they are silenced this is the era of soc. med. and news of it will come out.
 
Artaxerxes said:
Lots of sports writers and ex-cricketers have raised suspicions but umpires are very reluctant to call any Indian bowlers.I can guarantee you that if a Pakistani,Bangladeshi or Sri Lankan had the same action they would have been called checkers.
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Can you link me to any articles or media comments where sports writers and ex cricketers have raised questions on Bumrah's action?
 
TBH, Jasprit's success wouldn't taste as nice without some salty tears.
 
Devadwal said:
Ian bishop once said in commentery box "I cannot believe some people questioning the legality of Jasprit Bumrah’s action,” Bishop said during commentary. “His action is unique but is well within the rules of the game. In fact, it’s one of the cleanest ones. Some people really need to look in the mirror” Bishop said slamming the doubters.
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Do you think he or any other journalist would speak up against an Ind cricketer keep their jobs. Just a simple yes or no.
 
Bewal Express said:
Do you think he or any other journalist would speak up against an Ind cricketer keep their jobs. Just a simple yes or no.
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Lol yea everything is conspiracy theory .his actions is clean so nobody get questions aparts from some delusion pakistan fans . Coming at your point anyone can speak against BCCI if they doing anything wrong.
 
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