General Zia-ul-Haq: Why is he often detested by a lot of Pakistanis?

[chacha kashmiri]

No you dont. You judge a leader for his achivements, gains or losses and failures.

He is not responsible for any of those. All laws can be changed or did Zia instill the constituation all laws made under his tenure must not be challenged? lol

The judiciary in Pakistan can answer that question for you
The main argument against zia ul haq has always been the seeds he planted within Pakistan society that is said to have bred the intolerant , kharijiite and hard line version of right wing islam that has plagued Pakistan since the millenium

 

[KingKhanWC]

The judiciary in Pakistan can answer that question for you
The main argument against zia ul haq has always been the seeds he planted within Pakistan society that is said to have bred the intolerant , kharijiite and hard line version of right wing islam that has plagued Pakistan since the millenium

If Zia didnt help to defeat the Soviets and at the same time didnt make sure the nukes would be guaranteed, Pakistan today would be like Iraq, Syria or Libya. Seeds can always be extracted or killed off but the bomb can never be taken away now.

 

[PetroDollars]

There are leaders who do good and bad however Zia had things that were extremely bad to terrible and some extremely good things like he did develop the Nuke programe, strengthen the army and took advantage of amercians need in the soviet war and got all he could out of them. On the other hand Bhutto just did terrible things and nothing good - all in all they were both terrible leaders. Bhutto destroyed the economy and Zia destroyed the people.

 

[PetroDollars]

There are leaders who do good and bad however Zia had things that were extremely bad to terrible and some extremely good things like he did develop the Nuke programe, strengthen the army and took advantage of amercians need in the soviet war and got all he could out of them. On the other hand Bhutto just did terrible things and nothing good - all in all they were both terrible leaders. Bhutto destroyed the economy and Zia destroyed the people.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

If Zia didnt help to defeat the Soviets and at the same time didnt make sure the nukes would be guaranteed, Pakistan today would be like Iraq, Syria or Libya. Seeds can always be extracted or killed off but the bomb can never be taken away now.

Lebanon’s probably a better example
That is where Pakistan was heading towards under Nawaz Sharif

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lebanon’s probably a better example
That is where Pakistan was heading towards under Nawaz Sharif

Lebanon is a mixture of Sunni and Shia, both have been used agaisnt each other. Imagine Pakistan without nukes or a strong army/air force? It's certain India would have waged war on Pakistan, possibly even destroying it. Be thankful for Zia, Pakistan is secure for many many years to come now.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

The guy who enabled the hardliners to get their way in politics is being cherished as national hero. The country is truly irredeemable.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

I cannot believe how one can support a guy who facilitated the rape of women through draconian hudood ordinance, and criminalized a whole community.

 

[Syed1]

The guy who enabled the hardliners to get their way in politics is being cherished as national hero. The country is truly irredeemable.

Bhai... only a certain poster is cherishing Zia.


Most people who have actually lived some amount of time in Pakistan realize how utterly destructive Zia-ul Haq's rule was.

 

[Pakistanian]

lol my grandpas were a fan of this guy even though our family is quite liberal, they just think his predecessor was a racist and his policies harmed our business interests

 

[szrana]

Bhai... only a certain poster is cherishing Zia.


Most people who have actually lived some amount of time in Pakistan realize how utterly destructive Zia-ul Haq's rule was.

Zia is cherished by many people in Pakistan. Only liberals hate him, but they are a tiny minority in Pakistan.

 

[PetroDollars]

Bhai... only a certain poster is cherishing Zia.

Most people who have actually lived some amount of time in Pakistan realize how utterly destructive Zia-ul Haq's rule was.

The evidence is there in the fact after his death instead of sympathy the nation voted against his people and bought Benazir to power.

Ofcourse people will still rave about him and there the same people keeping pakistan back by supporting the radicals.

 

[Chasing_The_Dream]

Every leader has strengths and weaknesses, and Zia-ul Haq was no exception.

IMO, His two main strengths was as an outstanding Army General who took down Palestinian freedom fighters in a very violent episode in Jordan known as Black September. As for Pakistan’s nuclear program, in all fairness it was started during Z A Bhutto’s admin and was continued under Zia and further strengthened under former President Gen. Musharraf.

Unfortunately, Zia-ul Haq's Achilles’ heel were the extremely conservative and mostly under educated religious extremists who propelled the archaic Hudood Ordinance into law. This unfortunate move was horrifically detrimental to economically disadvantaged females in Pakistan. This law also rolled back the clock that former leader Ayub Khan and his cabinet implemented for female education and progressive social programs in Pakistan.

Last but not least, many pro Zia Pakistanis believe that Zia was not a corrupt leader. Sadly this was never the case, for Zia had amassed great wealth which he was extremely clever at hiding and not flaunting. A couple of examples of his hidden wealth are prevalent among many of his relatives and especially his sister who was never wealthy all of a sudden became a very rich woman overnight when she acquired a lavish 500 acre estate outside Houston, Texas - Charlie Wilson’s home state. My family personally knows one of Zia’s nieces who purchased property in France and the UK, when she was working as a Pakistani diplomat and could not afford properties such as these on her government salary.

So when one admires certain leaders, it’s important to see their track record in it’s entirety and not cherry pick just what we want to see through rose colored glasses.

 

[KB]

Habib Jalib, the leftist poet, was sent to prison many times during the Zia era. On one occasion shortly after release, he wrote a poem, "Zulmat ko 'Zia'" that played on the word Zia. In effect he asked why call Darkness (Zulmat) light (Zia)?

zulmat ko 'zia' sarsar ko saba bande ko KHuda kya likhna
patthar ko guhar diwar ko dar kargas ko huma kya likhna
ek hashr bapa hai ghar mein dam ghuTta hai gumbad-e-be-dar mein
ek shaKHs ke hathon muddat se ruswa hai watan duniya-bhar mein
ai dida-waro is zillat ko qismat ka likha kya likhna
zulmat ko 'zia' sarsar ko saba bande ko KHuda kya likhna

 

[KB]

Some informative posts.

Under Zia, as hinted already on this thread, Pakistan witnessed a much greater emphasis on a legalistic understanding of Islam. This marked a departure from the modernist elite who spearheaded the campaign for Pakistan and held power in the early years. Often mis-categorised as secularists, in fact their vision, as outlined in Muhammad Qasim Zaman's superb book, Islam in Pakistan, was one grounded in the idea of Islam as an ethical ideal which would guide the Pakistani state. Modernists had been committed to bringing to life the ‘spirit’ of Islam, to emphasising ethical values, which in their eyes had been deadened by the religious establishment who had encased Islam in outer ritualism. The modernists had emphasised the ‘ecumenical’ nature of Islam that transcended sectarian divisions. Such a perspective was already coming under stress in the Ayub years when modernism had reached its zenith. It was in 1968, that Fazlur Rahman was forced to resign as director of the Institute of Islamic Research. The lack of intellectual firepower to counteract the arguments of the religious establishment had left modernists vulnerable to pressure from the religious right.

In other words we do need to focus on more than just the wickedness of one or more individuals. Often narratives on Pakistan’s post independence history has revolved around the failings of individuals and the geo-political context. This is of course important, but too often the ideological aspect is ignored. The decline of Islamic modernism has created space for alternative visions, some of which have advocated a more intolerant vision for the country.

 

[Major]

Safia Bibi, was a blind teenaged girl who was raped during Zia's tenure. Under the religious laws introduced by Zia as Hudood ordinances, she was required to identify the people she had accused of raping her. As she was blind and could not do so, she was convicted of fornication and sentenced to be publicly lashed.

Yes, the infamous Safia Bibi case.

Thats how ridiculous his hudood ordinance were

 

[Hitman]

Wow, I’ve learnt more about the man from this thread than I ever did on Wikipedia.

 

[Badsha]

Most people see him in the role against Soviets. What they dont understand is he had no choice but to help the Afghans to defeat the Soviets. If the Soviets took permanent unchallenged control of Afghanistan, India would have started bombings off in Pakistan 20 years earlier than they did.

Because of Zia Pakistan have the F16s and this was to defend its nuclear facilities.

It doesn't really matter what kind of a man he was, Pakistans economy grew and so did it's armed forces. Some very stupid people blaming the security situation of the late 2000's on a man who has been dead for many years.

His other policies may have been rubbish but in terms of military strength no other leader has done so much.

Man I usually like your posts but no. Zia had plenty of options and the first one was to not be a dictator. This guy was selfish as they came. His foreign policy is not his main criticism anyway just look at how he handled India and the local media or hudood ordinance

Look at ogiri killing your own people

 

[Badsha]

Zia is cherished by many people in Pakistan. Only liberals hate him, but they are a tiny minority in Pakistan.

Only a few maulvis like him. No one even cares for his son ijaz ul haq.

 

[LongHorn]

Interesting that more than half of the posters here are negative towards him

If you stopped 10 random Pakistanis living in the UAE (regardless of ethnicity) and asked their opinion, 7 would repeat the Mard e Momin Mard e Haq phrase

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Interesting that more than half of the posters here are negative towards him

If you stopped 10 random Pakistanis living in the UAE (regardless of ethnicity) and asked their opinion, 7 would repeat the Mard e Momin Mard e Haq phrase

Have you conducted a survey?

 

[Markhor]

Wow, I’ve learnt more about the man from this thread than I ever did on Wikipedia.

And there's more.

Karachi was once the City of Lights, but Zia encouraged the rise of MQM (who were a genuine political movement) to serve as a counter to PPP. That led to the infamous 1990s that saw thousands killed by armed political violence.

State propaganda also pushed the myth of Zia being a modest man of the people who refused VIP protocol. He apparently would travel around on a mere bicycle.

Well eyewitnesses confirm that's hogwash. A long time ago I recall a poster here telling a story of being in Rawalpindi in the late 1970s and getting stuck in traffic due to road closures. Armed commandos were everywhere. Then with his own eyes, he saw an open top Jeep with who else but Mard-e-Monin sitting in front with the usual motorcade escorting him.

Of course there was a bicycle in the back of the jeep for all to see, and you can guess what the PTV headlines were that night.

 

[Markhor]

He promoted sectarianism aswell. He used to back the deobandis the same deobandis who were agianst the formation of Pakistan

Then he created those Tax laws for shia and sunni that created more problem.

Then there were few anti Shia leaders who openly spoke agianst Shias during the sensitive months of Muhaarram and Zia had told the police officials not to arrest him.

Adding to this point about sectarianism under Zia.

When the anti-Shia movement started in Jhang in the 1980s as a response to the Iranian Revolution and with Saudi assistance, Zia not only ignored it but saw it as his balancing act against the pesky Shias who'd opposed his rule.

Haq Nawaz Jhangvi, the founder of terrorist group Sipah-e-Sahaba, was famous for his anti-Shia rants and there's evidence Zia was warned about Jhangvi's toxic rhetoric yet allowed the SSP to blossom.

Meanwhile in 1986, Zia allowed a purge of Turi Shias in Parachinar (on the border with Afghanistan) at the hands of the Sunni Afghan mujahideen. Parachinar was the launching pad of the Mujahideen attacks into Afghanistan and the Turi Shias weren't cooperative. When the Parachinar massacre occured, the Shia community protested, led by Arif-ul-Hussaini.

Hussaini was murdered in Peshawar in August 1988, for which the Turis held Zia responsible, so when Zia died in the plane crash some suspected a disgruntled Shia was responsible.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Zia ul Haq destroyed the fabric of Pakistan. It was under his tenure that Pakistani history books were corrupted with lies. I have zero respect for that man and I hope he rots in hell.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Adding to this point about sectarianism under Zia.

When the anti-Shia movement started in Jhang in the 1980s as a response to the Iranian Revolution and with Saudi assistance, Zia not only ignored it but saw it as his balancing act against the pesky Shias who'd opposed his rule.

Haq Nawaz Jhangvi, the founder of terrorist group Sipah-e-Sahaba, was famous for his anti-Shia rants and there's evidence Zia was warned about Jhangvi's toxic rhetoric yet allowed the SSP to blossom.

Meanwhile in 1986, Zia allowed a purge of Turi Shias in Parachinar (on the border with Afghanistan) at the hands of the Sunni Afghan mujahideen. Parachinar was the launching pad of the Mujahideen attacks into Afghanistan and the Turi Shias weren't cooperative. When the Parachinar massacre occured, the Shia community protested, led by Arif-ul-Hussaini.

Hussaini was murdered in Peshawar in August 1988, for which the Turis held Zia responsible, so when Zia died in the plane crash some suspected a disgruntled Shia was responsible.

Zia ul Haq was taken out by the ISI. By 1985 he had all but lost his marbles.

 

[Major]

[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] have you read a case of exploding mangoes?

that book was on Zia's death and it was interesting as it combined all the conspiracy theories into one story.

An army cadet wanted to kill him in his own way by giving him a drink. Someone wanted to place explosive as the disguise of a mangoe. THere was even a theoory of General Akhtar being involved in a plot aswell, as orignally he was not required to travel on that plane, but he was such a loyal dog that when zia asked him to travel in the same plane he did.

The book was really interesting, it gave the reader to decide which story they want to accept as the true one.

 

[Major]

[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] have you read a case of exploding mangoes?

that book was on Zia's death and it was interesting as it combined all the conspiracy theories into one story.

An army cadet wanted to kill him in his own way by giving him a drink. Someone wanted to place explosive as the disguise of a mangoe. THere was even a theoory of General Akhtar being involved in a plot aswell, as orignally he was not required to travel on that plane, but he was such a loyal dog that when zia asked him to travel in the same plane he did.

The book was really interesting, it gave the reader to decide which story they want to accept as the true one.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Man I usually like your posts but no. Zia had plenty of options and the first one was to not be a dictator. This guy was selfish as they came. His foreign policy is not his main criticism anyway just look at how he handled India and the local media or hudood ordinance

Look at ogiri killing your own people

I'v only argued his role in making Pakistan a strong military force, nobody can deny this or ague against it. This achievement alone is one of the greatest achievements by any leader in Asia in history. I would put it along with the likes of Alexander the Great making a peace deal with those living in modern day North Pakistan/Afghanistan. All odds were against this, Israel, India and the US would not allow this but Zia saw an opportunity and took it!

Some of the laws passed were strange and any secterianmism created under his tenure was obviouisly very wrong, Pakistan as a nation should treat all citizens equally.

But why havent such laws been changed since? Those who claim Pakistan is in a mess because of him are ignorant or just reading the masses of propaganda against Zia which was fed to the Pakistan media by western liberalism.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

I'v only argued his role in making Pakistan a strong military force, nobody can deny this or ague against it. This achievement alone is one of the greatest achievements by any leader in Asia in history. I would put it along with the likes of Alexander the Great making a peace deal with those living in modern day North Pakistan/Afghanistan. All odds were against this, Israel, India and the US would not allow this but Zia saw an opportunity and took it!

Some of the laws passed were strange and any secterianmism created under his tenure was obviouisly very wrong, Pakistan as a nation should treat all citizens equally.

But why havent such laws been changed since? Those who claim Pakistan is in a mess because of him are ignorant or just reading the masses of propaganda against Zia which was fed to the Pakistan media by western liberalism.

The same reason why gun laws can't be changed in the US. Jammat-i-Islami and these other religious terrorist factions will run amok if any of Zia's black laws are removed.

Blasphemy Law is has no place in any civilized country.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The same reason why gun laws can't be changed in the US. Jammat-i-Islami and these other religious terrorist factions will run amok if any of Zia's black laws are removed.

Blasphemy Law is has no place in any civilized country.

Blasphemy law was not due to Zia, it was introduced by the Brits. So now we have people blaming Zia for a law which came into place before he was an apple in his fathers eye.

 

[Markhor]

Zia ul Haq was taken out by the ISI. By 1985 he had all but lost his marbles.

I am not one to indulge in conspiracies but Zia had so many enemies. There was a long list of candidates from ISI, a rival General tired of waiting their turn, CIA, KGB, RAW, KHAD, Iran, PPP/al-Zulfiqar or a disaffected Shia/Arif Hussaini follower (the pilot).

Or maybe it was an accident. One of the biggest unresolved mysteries that sadly was never properly investigated like Lockerbie the very same year.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I am not one to indulge in conspiracies but Zia had so many enemies. There was a long list of candidates from ISI, a rival General tired of waiting their turn, CIA, KGB, RAW, KHAD, Iran, PPP/al-Zulfiqar or a disaffected Shia/Arif Hussaini follower (the pilot).

Or maybe it was an accident. One of the biggest unresolved mysteries that sadly was never properly investigated like Lockerbie the very same year.

ISI would not have taken out Zia along with a number of Americans, this is the most absurd conspiracy theory ive ever heard.

He bought the 'Islamic bomb' into the world, was bound to be killed by those whose entire bodies shook on the day this was announced to the world.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Blasphemy law was not due to Zia, it was introduced by the Brits. So now we have people blaming Zia for a law which came into place before he was an apple in his fathers eye.

The original blasphemy law was indeed a British law, but there was no death penalty and it was equal in regards to all religions. Anyone who spoke against any other faith in a derogatory fashion was at most to be arrested OR fined. That's it.

Zia ul Haq not only imposed a death penalty upon this law, but added on that anyone who speaks ill of the Prophet would be jailed and executed.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

ISI would not have taken out Zia along with a number of Americans, this is the most absurd conspiracy theory ive ever heard.

He bought the 'Islamic bomb' into the world, was bound to be killed by those whose entire bodies shook on the day this was announced to the world.

Umm...Project 706 which led to the formation of Pakistan nuke program today was ushered in by none other than Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.

Keep drinking your "Zia ul Haq" koolaid all you want kid.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The original blasphemy law was indeed a British law, but there was no death penalty and it was equal in regards to all religions. Anyone who spoke against any other faith in a derogatory fashion was at most to be arrested OR fined. That's it.

Zia ul Haq not only imposed a death penalty upon this law, but added on that anyone who speaks ill of the Prophet would be jailed and executed.

It wasnt his lone idea. The majority of Pakistanis then and even now support these laws. Otherwise they could have been repelled by now.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Umm...Project 706 which led to the formation of Pakistan nuke program today was ushered in by none other than Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.

Keep drinking your "Zia ul Haq" koolaid all you want kid.

Try reading my earlier posts. We all know this but Zia was the one who made it happen when India, Israel, US and Europe did everything to stop this.

No offence but you look about 12, try reading history not what some liberal uncle told you.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

ISI would not have taken out Zia along with a number of Americans, this is the most absurd conspiracy theory ive ever heard.

Why not? Who are the Americans to the ISI? See Afghanistan for further information.

Zia ul Haq had lost his mind by the mid 80s and the army wanted to get rid of him. And they did. Why do you think there is so much secrecy behind his death or this plane crash? If any other country had done it, rest assured our corrupted history books would probably mention it as some evil Yahood or some failed has been intel agency like RAW.

It's the same reason why the army never mentions which army officer betrayed Pakistan and told the Americans where OBL was hiding. Him and his entire family were shifted to the United States where they live in hiding now.

The army in Pakistan is not halal.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

It wasnt his lone idea. The majority of Pakistanis then and even now support these laws. Otherwise they could have been repelled by now.

Oh really? Please provide me a link to the referendum that was done in Pakistan to usher in these laws. I'll wait.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Try reading my earlier posts. We all know this but Zia was the one who made it happen when India, Israel, US and Europe did everything to stop this.

Zia inherited the program. It was Bhutto was since the mid 1960s was trying to get Ayub Khan to sign on to the idea of a nuclear program. He rejected the idea.

No offence but you look about 12, try reading history not what some liberal uncle told you.

I live in Pakistan. I'm well aware of my history. Thanks. It's hilarious seeing Islamist right wing nut jobs talk about how great it is to live in some "Islamic republic" all while they choose to live in the free, secular west.

The irony here is unmistakable.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why not? Who are the Americans to the ISI? See Afghanistan for further information.

Zia ul Haq had lost his mind by the mid 80s and the army wanted to get rid of him. And they did. Why do you think there is so much secrecy behind his death or this plane crash? If any other country had done it, rest assured our corrupted history books would probably mention it as some evil Yahood or some failed has been intel agency like RAW.

It's the same reason why the army never mentions which army officer betrayed Pakistan and told the Americans where OBL was hiding. Him and his entire family were shifted to the United States where they live in hiding now.

The army in Pakistan is not halal.

Show some evidence, anything. You're the first person Ive ever heard/read say this.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Oh really? Please provide me a link to the referendum that was done in Pakistan to usher in these laws. I'll wait.

A referendum is a vote. You mean poll. Sure here.

A Pew Research Center poll from November 2011 showed that 75% of Pakistani Muslims say blasphemy laws are necessary to protect Islam in their country, while only 6% say blasphemy laws unfairly target minority communities.

https://www.mironline.ca/understanding-asia-bibis-trail-and-pakistans-blasphemy-laws/

 

[KingKhanWC]

Zia inherited the program. It was Bhutto was since the mid 1960s was trying to get Ayub Khan to sign on to the idea of a nuclear program. He rejected the idea.



I live in Pakistan. I'm well aware of my history. Thanks. It's hilarious seeing Islamist right wing nut jobs talk about how great it is to live in some "Islamic republic" all while they choose to live in the free, secular west.

The irony here is unmistakable.

Kid, you havent grown a hair on your face so are only accepting what you liberal teacher or liberal uncle told you. You dont speak for the majority of Pakistanis, their views are different.

Zia made it happen, how hard is this for you to understand? Go ask chacha.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

A referendum is a vote. You mean poll. Sure here.
https://www.mironline.ca/understanding-asia-bibis-trail-and-pakistans-blasphemy-laws/

Yeah and you're calling me 12? Do you know what a referendum even is? I'm asking you, were the people of Pakistan asked if they wanted these laws the first place, yes or no?

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Kid, you havent grown a hair on your face so are only accepting what you liberal teacher or liberal uncle told you. You dont speak for the majority of Pakistanis, their views are different.

Zia made it happen, how hard is this for you to understand? Go ask chacha.

I don't grow hair on my face, I shave. I'm not a mullah.

As for who started Project 706, here's your evidence.

After the 1965 War, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Foreign Minister at that time, began to lobby for a nuclear weapons option. 'In October 1965, Bhutto visited Vienna to attend the International Atomic Energy Agency meeting. While there, he met with Munir Ahmad Khan, and other Pakistani scientists working at IAEA. Pakistani IAEA scientists briefed Bhutto on the rapid development of Indian nuclear programme. According to Munir Ahmad Khan, the nuclear facility at Trombay consisted of a plutonium production reactor, a reprocessing plant, and other facilities associated to weapon production. Bhutto quickly arranged a meeting with Ayub Khan. After this meeting, Ayub Khan remained unconvinced, and rejected the proposal made by Munir Ahmad Khan. Khan notified Bhutto immediately and told him about what had happened.

After learning what happened, Bhutto famously replied, "Don't worry. Our turn will come". In 1967, a team of Pakistani scientists, under Rafi Muhammad Chaudhry, produced the first batch of radioisotopes at the Pakistan Institute of Nuclear Science and Technology.[13] The research in nuclear technology at PINSTECH began to pick up speed, and Abdus Salam began to supervise Pakistani research institutes.[14]


Sources:
*Ashok Kapur, "Dr. Usmani Takes Over, 1960–71," Pakistan's Nuclear Development pp. 77–87.

*Sublettle, Carey (2 January 2002 (original date: 15 October 1965)). "Historical Background: Zulfikar Ali Bhutto". Nuclear weapons archives. Federation of American Scientists (FAS). Retrieved 25 June 2011.

*Farhatullah Babar, "Bhutto’s footprints on nuclear Pakistan", The News, (Islamabad) 4 April 2006.

* "Pakistan Makes Achievements in Peaceful Use of Nuclear Energy," Xinhua General Overseas News Service, 27 October 1979; in Lexis-Nexis Academic Universe, 27 October 1979

"Pakistan Produces Radio-Isotopes," Xinhua General Overseas News Service, 20 September 1978; in Lexis-Nexis Academic Universe, 20 September 1978

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yeah and you're calling me 12? Do you know what a referendum even is? I'm asking you, were the people of Pakistan asked if they wanted these laws the first place, yes or no?

I wrote

"The majority of Pakistanis then and even now support these laws."

And have proven this to you. There was no vote as there was no vote on obtaining the nuke or to join the US in the war of terror. Kid, you dont get a vote on everything and wont on something the majority of people are clear about.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I don't grow hair on my face, I shave. I'm not a mullah.

As for who started Project 706, here's your evidence.

After the 1965 War, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Foreign Minister at that time, began to lobby for a nuclear weapons option. 'In October 1965, Bhutto visited Vienna to attend the International Atomic Energy Agency meeting. While there, he met with Munir Ahmad Khan, and other Pakistani scientists working at IAEA. Pakistani IAEA scientists briefed Bhutto on the rapid development of Indian nuclear programme. According to Munir Ahmad Khan, the nuclear facility at Trombay consisted of a plutonium production reactor, a reprocessing plant, and other facilities associated to weapon production. Bhutto quickly arranged a meeting with Ayub Khan. After this meeting, Ayub Khan remained unconvinced, and rejected the proposal made by Munir Ahmad Khan. Khan notified Bhutto immediately and told him about what had happened.

After learning what happened, Bhutto famously replied, "Don't worry. Our turn will come". In 1967, a team of Pakistani scientists, under Rafi Muhammad Chaudhry, produced the first batch of radioisotopes at the Pakistan Institute of Nuclear Science and Technology.[13] The research in nuclear technology at PINSTECH began to pick up speed, and Abdus Salam began to supervise Pakistani research institutes.[14]


Sources:
*Ashok Kapur, "Dr. Usmani Takes Over, 1960–71," Pakistan's Nuclear Development pp. 77–87.

*Sublettle, Carey (2 January 2002 (original date: 15 October 1965)). "Historical Background: Zulfikar Ali Bhutto". Nuclear weapons archives. Federation of American Scientists (FAS). Retrieved 25 June 2011.

*Farhatullah Babar, "Bhutto’s footprints on nuclear Pakistan", The News, (Islamabad) 4 April 2006.

* "Pakistan Makes Achievements in Peaceful Use of Nuclear Energy," Xinhua General Overseas News Service, 27 October 1979; in Lexis-Nexis Academic Universe, 27 October 1979

"Pakistan Produces Radio-Isotopes," Xinhua General Overseas News Service, 20 September 1978; in Lexis-Nexis Academic Universe, 20 September 1978

Sure, everyone who has a beard is a Mullah. You are seriously brainwashed. lol. I dont have time or interest in now debating with copy and paste. Time for you to jump on the boat and get out of Pakistan if you hate it so much.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Sure, everyone who has a beard is a Mullah. You are seriously brainwashed. lol. I dont have time or interest in now debating with copy and paste. Time for you to jump on the boat and get out of Pakistan if you hate it so much.

I love my country. I intend on fighting back control for my country from these mullahs who hijacked it.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I love my country. I intend on fighting back control for my country from these mullahs who hijacked it.

I wish you the very best of luck.

Genuine advice. If you are going to abuse the Pak army, dont show you face on the internet. Take care.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

I wish you the very best of luck.

Genuine advice. If you are going to abuse the Pak army, dont show you face on the internet. Take care.

Whose abusing the army? I'm calling out Zia ul Haq for the fraud he is. That's all.

 

[Jaibalayya]

I wish you the very best of luck.

Genuine advice. If you are going to abuse the Pak army, dont show you face on the internet. Take care.

Are you threatening / saying that Pak Army is so intolerant that they can not take criticism directed towards them??

 

[xbronze]

Why not? Who are the Americans to the ISI? See Afghanistan for further information.

Zia ul Haq had lost his mind by the mid 80s and the army wanted to get rid of him. And they did. Why do you think there is so much secrecy behind his death or this plane crash? If any other country had done it, rest assured our corrupted history books would probably mention it as some evil Yahood or some failed has been intel agency like RAW.

It's the same reason why the army never mentions which army officer betrayed Pakistan and told the Americans where OBL was hiding. Him and his entire family were shifted to the United States where they live in hiding now.

The army in Pakistan is not halal.

So according to you, outing the fact that the global terrorist Osama Bin Laden was indeed hiding in Pakistan was a betrayal of Pakistan.

In other words you admit that Pakistan (Pakistan Army/ISI) was involved in hiding terrorist Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan, but only take offense with someone revealing Bin Laden's presence in Pakistan, to the Americans (instead of taking offense at the fact that this terrorist was provided a safe haven in Pakistan by the Pakistani Army/ISI).

Given this mindset, why is it that Pakistanis then take offense when they are portrayed as harborers of terrorists?

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

So according to you, outing the fact that the global terrorist Osama Bin Laden was indeed hiding in Pakistan was a betrayal of Pakistan.

Are you talking about this "global terrorist"? It's funny how labels change within a decade.

In other words you admit that Pakistan (Pakistan Army/ISI) was involved in hiding terrorist Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan, but only take offense with someone revealing Bin Laden's presence in Pakistan, to the Americans (instead of taking offense at the fact that this terrorist was provided a safe haven in Pakistan by the Pakistani Army/ISI).

Why exactly is he a terrorist now? What was the difference between what bin Laden was doing to the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 80s and what he did to the US in 2001? Explain that to me. Bin Laden was an asset to both the CIA and ISI in the 1980s...the CIA expunged him, why should the ISI have?

Given this mindset, why is it that Pakistanis then take offense when they are portrayed as harborers of terrorists?

Come again? What the warmongering west or Hindutva lynching India thinks of Pakistan is irrelevant. The world is well aware of who lied to the UNSC to bomb Iraq and steal its oil whilst murdering 1 million Iraqi civilians. The world is well aware of NATO supporting Islamists terrorists in Libya to takedown Gaddafi.

 

[cric_man]

[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] have you read a case of exploding mangoes?

that book was on Zia's death and it was interesting as it combined all the conspiracy theories into one story.

An army cadet wanted to kill him in his own way by giving him a drink. Someone wanted to place explosive as the disguise of a mangoe. THere was even a theoory of General Akhtar being involved in a plot aswell, as orignally he was not required to travel on that plane, but he was such a loyal dog that when zia asked him to travel in the same plane he did.

The book was really interesting, it gave the reader to decide which story they want to accept as the true one.

Not exploding mangoes, rather a nerve agent placed in crate of mangoes and somehow placed the cockpit in violation of the rules. bahawalpur is known for its mangoes, and it is not uncommon for officers here to send mango patis to other officers all. Once the C-130 had attained an altitude of 10000 ft, the nerve agent was released killing the flight crew instantaneously. For VIP flights, there would be a VIP capsule loaded in the cargo hold of the C-130 (like a big camper), and usually could not access the cockpit. The pilots were dead, eye witnesses saw the plane yawing up/down before nose diving into the ground. PAF has operated C-130s since 1956 and never lost a plane to inflight accident. We have lost 3 on the ground to fires and freak accidents, but never in flight. We have even used them as heavy bombers in 65. The second oldest C-130 (B model from 1957) is currently in the UK for RIAT air show!

W/C Mashood, O/C 6 Sqn was the pilot. His son was in my class (5th grade). My father was SSO-AD SAC and got the dreaded call -- Babur down (Babur is our callsign for airforce 1). Airspace was subsequently closed.

A peculiar case was Gen Islam Beg (vice chief) who was supposed to travel back with Gen Zia, disembark at the last moment supposedly to visit some other unit in the vicinity which was not on his schedule. That has fueled a lot of conspiracy theories.

 

[Nostalgic]

[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] have you read a case of exploding mangoes?

that book was on Zia's death and it was interesting as it combined all the conspiracy theories into one story.

An army cadet wanted to kill him in his own way by giving him a drink. Someone wanted to place explosive as the disguise of a mangoe. THere was even a theoory of General Akhtar being involved in a plot aswell, as orignally he was not required to travel on that plane, but he was such a loyal dog that when zia asked him to travel in the same plane he did.

The book was really interesting, it gave the reader to decide which story they want to accept as the true one.

Flying Officer Shigri was an Air Force cadet, not Army. And it was Mirza Aslam Beg orchestrating the plot, not Akhtar Abdul Rehman, whom Zia had "promoted" to Chairman Joint Chief of Staff Committee so he wasn't a threat.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Zia-ul-haq brought out the worst in people. Pretty sure if Zia was alive for few more years, he would've legalized mob lynching in the name of religion and people like King Khan would be defending and telling us how the 'majority supported/agreed' with the law. He'll tell us to blame the officers who stood non-nonchalantly when people burned their children in the name of honor and not the man who legalized it. He'd tell us to blame the judges who released the culprits despite the judges being the puppets of Zia. Most of all, he'd tell us that all of his crimes are forgivable because he made us a nuclear power or otherwise we'd be spending our precious time in pubs and bars ran by Indian/Hindu entrepreneurs.

 

[xbronze]

Are you talking about this "global terrorist"? It's funny how labels change within a decade.
View attachment 93874



Why exactly is he a terrorist now? What was the difference between what bin Laden was doing to the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 80s and what he did to the US in 2001? Explain that to me. Bin Laden was an asset to both the CIA and ISI in the 1980s...the CIA expunged him, why should the ISI have?



Come again? What the warmongering west or Hindutva lynching India thinks of Pakistan is irrelevant. The world is well aware of who lied to the UNSC to bomb Iraq and steal its oil whilst murdering 1 million Iraqi civilians. The world is well aware of NATO supporting Islamists terrorists in Libya to takedown Gaddafi.

Thank you for admitting something that the world knows. That Pakistan Army/ISI have been harboring global terrorists.

Thank you also for volunteering to be exhibit A and demonstrate how some Pakistanis consider the act of outing terrorists hidden within Pakistan by ISI/Pakistani Army, an act of BETRAYAL or TREASON.

Very rarely do Pakistanis openly admit that their Pakistan Army/ISI harbors global terrorists within Pakistan. Even more rarely does any Pakistani openly call someone a betrayer, for doing the right thing and revealing the hideout of Pakistan Army/ISI sponsored Global terrorists hidden within Pakistan.

Thank you!

 

[Pakistanian]

Thank you for admitting something that the world knows. That Pakistan Army/ISI have been harboring global terrorists.

Thank you also for volunteering to be exhibit A and demonstrate how some Pakistanis consider the act of outing terrorists hidden within Pakistan by ISI/Pakistani Army, an act of BETRAYAL or TREASON.

Very rarely do Pakistanis openly admit that their Pakistan Army/ISI harbors global terrorists within Pakistan. Even more rarely does any Pakistani openly call someone a betrayer, for doing the right thing and revealing the hideout of Pakistan Army/ISI sponsored Global terrorists hidden within Pakistan.

Thank you!

You should read The Subjective Reality of the Terrorist: Ideological and Psychological Factors in Terrorism by Martha Crenshaw.

 

[minamino]

Was Zia-ul-Haq the worst leader of Pakistan?

I can’t think of someone else who had impacted Pakistan so negatively than this guy. His jingoism was really open and many people actually supported it and his draconian laws set the country back by at least 50 years and involvement in Afghanistan led to a monster through which we still have to go through daily in Pakistan. I don’t think even Zardari and NS harmed Pakistan in such a way than this guy.

 

[Hitman]

I can’t think of someone else who had impacted Pakistan so negatively than this guy. His jingoism was really open and many people actually supported it and his draconian laws set the country back by at least 50 years and involvement in Afghanistan led to a monster through which we still have to go through daily in Pakistan. I don’t think even Zardari and NS harmed Pakistan in such a way than this guy.

From what I've read so far, a lot of Pakistanis share your sentiments.

 

[angrypathan]

I mean, Bhutto and the establishment's refusal to accept Mujeeb as Prime Minister split the country in two. Not to mention the awful effects of some of his nationalisation policies.

Even then Zia was probably worse.

 

[Mamoon]

Some brilliant posts in this thread that have covered all the important details.

It is tough to choose between Ayub and Zia.

Ayub sold Pakistan to the U.S. which has caused us nothing but trouble. We are their biggest mercenary to this day, and our involved in the Afghan War and the WoT has destabilized the country as well as the region forever.

Zia tapped the dangerous potential of religious extremism to consolidate his power. He created this delusion that Pakistan was a defender of the ummah.

However, one can argue that Zia was ultimately a puppet of the U.S. who had to be put down once he became too powerful for the U.S. to subdue.

Without Ayub’s legacy, Zia may not have compromised the national interests of Pakistan for U.S. aid.

 

[AdamM97]

Some brilliant posts in this thread that have covered all the important details.

It is tough to choose between Ayub and Zia.

Ayub sold Pakistan to the U.S. which has caused us nothing but trouble. We are their biggest mercenary to this day, and our involved in the Afghan War and the WoT has destabilized the country as well as the region forever.

Zia tapped the dangerous potential of religious extremism to consolidate his power. He created this delusion that Pakistan was a defender of the ummah.

However, one can argue that Zia was ultimately a puppet of the U.S. who had to be put down once he became too powerful for the U.S. to subdue.

Without Ayub’s legacy, Zia may not have compromised the national interests of Pakistan for U.S. aid.

Good post. However you forget Zia’s worst crime of all, propping of Nawaz Sharif.

 

[IAJ]

It’s funny to see how posters, who were hardly born at that time, try to act like they give their personal views on these matters, as if they witnessed all that by their own eyes. You have just read the books, papers, magazines you wanted and formed your opinion. Basically what I am saying, the sources should be given so people can double check the information.

 

[sadida97]

Zulfiqar Bhutto and Zia-ul Haq were the worst things to happen to Pakistan.


I'm glad both suffered unnatural deaths. May they burn in hell inshallah

Can you please elaborate on why Bhutto is one of the worst things to happen to pakistan...

 

[Nadeemp]

Leopard and the fox by Tariq Ali is a good one

Gen. Zia is without doubt one of the most influential and pivotal figures in world politics if not in the sub-continent, Islam, and Pakistan.

Supported, aided and backed by western intelligence agencies, he was clever in his maneuvering into power and his grip was on Pakistan was firm.
He is fondly remembered by close friends, family, politicians that benefited under his patronage and many religious leaders.

If Pakistan could to be said to have regressed economically under Z. Bhutto, at least he was once democratically elected (Mujibur Rahman irony not withstanding) but it took Zia just a couple of years to destroy any semblance of peace, prosperity, forward-thinking and development socially. He sowed the seeds of strife and pain for years to come and was brutal in that decade to many.

I would be interested to hear from anyone on the best books of his era.

As far as Pakistan's military coups go, it was the worst.

 

[Nadeemp]

I'v only argued his role in making Pakistan a strong military force, nobody can deny this or ague against it. This achievement alone is one of the greatest achievements by any leader in Asia in history. I would put it along with the likes of Alexander the Great making a peace deal with those living in modern day North Pakistan/Afghanistan. All odds were against this, Israel, India and the US would not allow this but Zia saw an opportunity and took it!

Some of the laws passed were strange and any secterianmism created under his tenure was obviouisly very wrong, Pakistan as a nation should treat all citizens equally.

But why havent such laws been changed since? Those who claim Pakistan is in a mess because of him are ignorant or just reading the masses of propaganda against Zia which was fed to the Pakistan media by western liberalism.

I am old enough to have gone through zia times. He was a POS . Destroyed the country.

 

[Nadeemp]

I lived through zia times. I think enough negative things have not been said. He is long gone , but the cancer he created is still inflicting damage . That’s his legacy.

 

[Hitman]

Can you please elaborate on why Bhutto is one of the worst things to happen to pakistan...

Don't you think he is the biggest reason why Pakistan lost East Pakistan?

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

There are leaders who do good and bad however Zia had things that were extremely bad to terrible and some extremely good things like he did develop the Nuke programe, strengthen the army and took advantage of amercians need in the soviet war and got all he could out of them. On the other hand Bhutto just did terrible things and nothing good - all in all they were both terrible leaders. Bhutto destroyed the economy and Zia destroyed the people.

That's Poetry Right there!

 

[WebGuru]

There are leaders who do good and bad however Zia had things that were extremely bad to terrible and some extremely good things like he did develop the Nuke programe, strengthen the army and took advantage of amercians need in the soviet war and got all he could out of them. On the other hand Bhutto just did terrible things and nothing good - all in all they were both terrible leaders. Bhutto destroyed the economy and Zia destroyed the people.

/thread

 

[CricVet]

For those who have lived through the glorious time of Karachi, the cancer he bought to "Sohrab Goth", those who live in Karachi know what it means, is among the worst of all evils. Of course the extremism in Pakistan tops it all. This coming from someone who cried his eyes out when he died. Of course back then as a kid all we thought that he was marde momin bringing F16s and nuclear bombs to Pakistan making it strong...gullible. My great city's destruction is all due to this man's evil designs.

 

[sindhiboy]

Don't you think he is the biggest reason why Pakistan lost East Pakistan?

that was due to army's failure. and the constant racism faced by bengalis from the rest of pakistan

 

[KB]

There is no denying the authoritarian grip of the Zia regime during the 1980s. But it is worthwhile remembering that in spite of the harshness of the regime, there was still elements of cultural vitality and resistance. This was often expressed through poetry.

Faiz Ahmed Faiz’s Hum Dekhenge was famously put to song by Iqbal Bano. Ahmed Faraz wrote the celebrated poem Muhasara. Habib Jalib's defiance was expressed in rather more direct and blunt manner.

These are obvious choices when looking for verses of protest emanating from Pakistan during this period. But there were many others. There was Ustad Daman, Qaswar Butt, Abid Ameeq and Zahoor Hussain Zahoor. In one Punjabi poem, Zahoor states, that should he speak he shall be murdered, but if he remains mute he will die:

Jey baulan te maar dain gey
naan baulan te mar jawan gah

Noticeable too was the resistance poetry from female poets such as Fahmida Riaz, Kishwar Naheed and Sara Shagufta. Parvin Shakir’s poetry was of a very different sort and was not overtly directed at dissent or protest. Yet she is worthy of mention because, as Muhammad Qasim Zaman writes, for a female poet “To explore female sensuality in suggestive if guarded verse at a time when conservative gender norms were a matter of state policy was not a conformist move.”

 

[KingKhanWC]

I am old enough to have gone through zia times. He was a POS . Destroyed the country.

Your age has no bearing on factual history.

Zia made bad decisions but his biggest achievement tops all those. Because of this achievement Pakistan today is not like Iraq, Syria, Libya etc.

No Zia, no nukes no Pakistan.

 

[DeadBall]

In one Punjabi poem, Zahoor states, that should he speak he shall be murdered, but if he remains mute he will die:

Jey baulan te maar dain gey
naan baulan te mar jawan gah

Wah!

Although this could be a case of such poetry existing inspite of him rather than him allowing it to exist.

 

[Greenstorm]

He had his strengths and weaknesses like most of our leaders. Abusing him and blaming everything on him is favourite pastime of our enlightened brigade.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

that was due to army's failure. and the constant racism faced by bengalis from the rest of pakistan

Ironically, now they are facing racism from the other side of Bengal.

 

[KB]

Wah!

Although this could be a case of such poetry existing inspite of him rather than him allowing it to exist.

Yes, to be sure I was not suggesting that Zia in anyway encouraged this. The opposite in fact holds. Some of those poets I mentioned endured spells in prison or lived in exile. My point was that a certain creative resilience and even vibrancy remained in Pakistan even in spite of the Zia regime's heavy hand.

 

[WebGuru]

He had his strengths and weaknesses like most of our leaders. Abusing him and blaming everything on him is favourite pastime of our enlightened brigade.

I have no love for Zia but people blame him for the mistakes of Zulfiqar Bhutto and Benazir too and that shows their bias

 

[minamino]

The reason is simple. Everything bad with the country these days is connected to this monster. Be it terrorism, backwardness or corruption.