Has Pakistan finally lost the Kashmir Cause?

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You seem to have made this thread with sincerity and genuineness.

However the issue for you is:

- Pakistan is now in a state where it is beyond recovery, should the Kashmir issue be solved or not.

- Indians have moved on, their economy is in the top 5, their political opinion in the international arena is taken very seriously. Heck last week I heard the US has offered India a membership in NATO.

It is best to leave things as it is, Pakistan cannot be salvaged, it's destiny is sealed, Pakistan will go the way it is. What a pathetic situation when you have to beg for IMF loans just to service your existing existing herculean loans, practically zero money coming from the economy.

Pakistan can dig their heads in sand and keep fighting for Kashmir and get poorer by the day, it is nail, coffin, hammer, Pakistan is finished.

Lol. OP is being treated like an irritating Bangladeshi by his Bollywood ideologues. "Thanks for the support, but no thanks, we don't want any friendship with descendants of Tipu Sultan".

Keep the replies coming hindutvas, keep em coming.

 

[nextover666666]

Vajpayee stood on Minar e Pakistan and acknowledged Pakistan. That is one of the tallest BJP leaders and RSS alumni. Not that Pakistan needed validation but that should have ended the rhetoric of BJP wanting Akhand Bharat or whatever and not acknowledging Pakistan’s existence.

How does such a monument occasion go over most even educated Pakistani’s heads?

What happened after that is also documented.

Modi visited Pakistan in the first year after he was elected.

Pakistan being finished or on the verge of it is not an Indian narrative. IK appears on some news channel every day and isn’t he saying more or less the same thing?

The Indian governement with his agenda and propoganda and many occasions are trying to eliminate Pakistan, we cannot deny this. Maybe general public of India do not care or agree but Indian government is trying to eliminate Pakistan and this is a known fact.

 

[Local.Dada]

The Indian governement with his agenda and propoganda and many occasions are trying to eliminate Pakistan, we cannot deny this. Maybe general public of India do not care or agree but Indian government is trying to eliminate Pakistan and this is a known fact.

So India is responsible for the current economic and political crisis in Pakistan? Ok you learn new things everyday.

As far as Indian government disliking Pakistan I would only think the feeling is mutual because I never saw any Pakistan delegation coming with a bouquet to India to bury the hatchet. The initiative was always taken by India as history tells me.

This known fact you are giving me is as true as water is wet. Not useful or actionable information

 

[Major]

The more I read about Pakistans stance on Kashmir the more confused I get.

When it comes to India here is the stance be it BJP or congress or whoever : Kashmir is India’s “atoot ang”.

From what I know there are 2 perspectives of Kashmiris on the Indian side: They want to be part of India and there is no denial that there is also a underlying sentiment of full autonomy/ freedom in some areas. Being a part of Pakistan never even crosses their mind.

Now when it comes to Pakistan I never understood what they want. Do they want Kashmir to be its own independent country like Bangladesh etc or do they want it to be a new state incorporated into Pakistan?

Also appreciate the Op speaking his mind and touch on a very sensitive subject. So kudos.

In fact if Pakistan ever does this it will only corner the current government of India. The current Indian rhetoric (practical or not is a different debate) is to annex entire region of Kashmir in to India eventually. So if Pakistan offers a peace deal or such a solution it will only put GOI in a dilemma. Should they take the deal and bring some semblance of peace or cater to their hard core supporters with such rhetoric.

The world is much more than Hindu-Muslim, RSS-BJP, PTI, tamaatars from India etc. we live in a global village. You get along you make progress, otherwise you get left behind. Proof in the pudding: Indian diplomacy vs Pakistan diplomacy.

I think the thread has noble intentions but it is catering to the wrong audience I feel who lack depth. Not their fault for not knowing the ground situation even though some questions have to be asked on ability to read books or even figure out usage of the internet.

to be fair, the amount of crying that goes on about kashmir around here, i expected the pakistani posters to ahve alot of knolwedge on this, but i was taken aback. Turns out the british pakistanis knowledge on Kashmir and Pakistani politics is same as their knowledge on local politics level.

None of them understand that how army has used this cause. ANd alot of them have this hate for India which I wonder what happens in UK amongst them

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

to be fair, the amount of crying that goes on about kashmir around here, i expected the pakistani posters to ahve alot of knolwedge on this, but i was taken aback. Turns out the british pakistanis knowledge on Kashmir and Pakistani politics is same as their knowledge on local politics level.

None of them understand that how army has used this cause. ANd alot of them have this hate for India which I wonder what happens in UK amongst them

We get on fine with British Indians for one simple reason: They are too busy making their own way in British life to be worried about other minorities. If you were aware of it, even the recent trouble in Leicester was instigated by immigrants from hindutva India, not those who have been here for more than a generation.

Don't blame British Pakistanis for lack of friendship between India and Pakistan, it has nothing to do with us. India BANNED you guys directly from participation in Indian cross cultural events, for your knowledge, many British Pakistanis still fly out to India on British passports. How do you like dem apples bruh?

Keep begging, the rejection to your love letters are just getting better with each hindutva snub.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

Pakistan is not a small country by any means, be it geographical area or population. 230M is HUGE plus some influence in countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh etc.

Only problem is Pakistan's current economic situation and current world standing in terms of perception, just see how Sikh farmers in Punjab have been able to bring world's attention on Indian government atrocities. Anytime Pakistan raises Kashmir, no one other than dozen of countries take them seriously.

India and Israel have so many similarities, they weaponize the attacks on their land and use it an excuse for years and decades to come to commit atrocities on minorities. Just like US did after 9/11. India does this propaganda with current generation of Sikhs and labels anyone Khalistani if they don't fall in line. India has paid trolls on Twitter etc to sway public opinion. I simply don't trust any Indian media source anymore. When populace is weak physically and mentally, they crave for leaders like Indira, Zia, Modi.

Pakistan will find itself in even more deep trouble in coming years as it will be in direct conflict with leftist world order degeneracy.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The "alleged" SPY was in Pakistan to eat nihari?

Every country with means has spies in other countries. Be it CIA RAW ISI MI6 Mossad FSB they all have agents across the world, gathering intelligence.

 

[aqeelPK]

We need to educate ourselves on Pakistan's kashmir policy. We do not have any claim on the either side of the kashmir. We want Kashmir dispute to be solved as per the UN resolution of 1948 where both India & Pakistan agreed to solve the issue in the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite across all of the kashmir. Let the kashmiris decide for themselves, that's our state policy.
We should abolish (if not done already) our extremist/jihadi approach on kashmir introduced in 80s, as it has done more harm to the original cause. & demand free and impartial plebiscite at every available forum no matter what our internal condition is.

https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/111955/?ln=en

 

[KingKhanWC]

We need to educate ourselves on Pakistan's kashmir policy. We do not have any claim on the either side of the kashmir. We want Kashmir dispute to be solved as per the UN resolution of 1948 where both India & Pakistan agreed to solve the issue in the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite across all of the kashmir. Let the kashmiris decide for themselves, that's our state policy.
We should abolish (if not done already) our extremist/jihadi approach on kashmir introduced in 80s, as it has done more harm to the original cause. & demand free and impartial plebiscite at every available forum no matter what our internal condition is.

https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/111955/?ln=en

Pakistan has for nearly 70 years. When schoolgirls are being raped by soldiers, teenagers kidnapped killed and dumped in unknown graves, elderly beaten up, lockdowns on their lives etc etc, the people have a right to fight back. Self defence is a universal right, regardless of if it helps in the long run or not. Kashmiris will continue their struggle whether Pak helps or not.

Your post is too simplistic and isnt see their POV, which is the most important.

 

[nextover666666]

So India is responsible for the current economic and political crisis in Pakistan? Ok you learn new things everyday.

As far as Indian government disliking Pakistan I would only think the feeling is mutual because I never saw any Pakistan delegation coming with a bouquet to India to bury the hatchet. The initiative was always taken by India as history tells me.

This known fact you are giving me is as true as water is wet. Not useful or actionable information

- Your telling me India does not have a policy to eliminate Pakistan, they are doing everything in their power to eliminate Pakistan, you dont even have to look far, just look at the whole fiasco with cricket.

- India and the west do have a hand in Pakistans Political crisis yes, being a Muslim nation the west does not want it to progress, and India is taking part to do what ever they can ( since the reality is that your government is not over 1947).

- What history tells you that India tried burying the hatchet joke of the century, do not know where you come with this info.

- It is a known fact your government wants to eliminate Pakistan ( again this does not reflect the public of India, of course their is people who support it, but not all of India is like this) I am referring more to your government.

 

[Major]

We need to educate ourselves on Pakistan's kashmir policy. We do not have any claim on the either side of the kashmir. We want Kashmir dispute to be solved as per the UN resolution of 1948 where both India & Pakistan agreed to solve the issue in the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite across all of the kashmir. Let the kashmiris decide for themselves, that's our state policy.
We should abolish (if not done already) our extremist/jihadi approach on kashmir introduced in 80s, as it has done more harm to the original cause. & demand free and impartial plebiscite at every available forum no matter what our internal condition is.

https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/111955/?ln=en

pakistan will never give its own kashmir independence that is never going to happen.

 

[Major]

- Your telling me India does not have a policy to eliminate Pakistan, they are doing everything in their power to eliminate Pakistan, you dont even have to look far, just look at the whole fiasco with cricket.

- India and the west do have a hand in Pakistans Political crisis yes, being a Muslim nation the west does not want it to progress, and India is taking part to do what ever they can ( since the reality is that your government is not over 1947).

- What history tells you that India tried burying the hatchet joke of the century, do not know where you come with this info.

- It is a known fact your government wants to eliminate Pakistan ( again this does not reflect the public of India, of course their is people who support it, but not all of India is like this) I am referring more to your government.

lol this conspiracy mumbo jumbo.

West doesnt care what religion you follow.

 

[cricketjoshila]

- Your telling me India does not have a policy to eliminate Pakistan, they are doing everything in their power to eliminate Pakistan, you dont even have to look far, just look at the whole fiasco with cricket.

- India and the west do have a hand in Pakistans Political crisis yes, being a Muslim nation the west does not want it to progress, and India is taking part to do what ever they can ( since the reality is that your government is not over 1947).

- What history tells you that India tried burying the hatchet joke of the century, do not know where you come with this info.

- It is a known fact your government wants to eliminate Pakistan ( again this does not reflect the public of India, of course their is people who support it, but not all of India is like this) I am referring more to your government.

This is paranoid delusion.

 

[cricketjoshila]

We need to educate ourselves on Pakistan's kashmir policy. We do not have any claim on the either side of the kashmir. We want Kashmir dispute to be solved as per the UN resolution of 1948 where both India & Pakistan agreed to solve the issue in the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite across all of the kashmir. Let the kashmiris decide for themselves, that's our state policy.
We should abolish (if not done already) our extremist/jihadi approach on kashmir introduced in 80s, as it has done more harm to the original cause. & demand free and impartial plebiscite at every available forum no matter what our internal condition is.

https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/111955/?ln=en

Why is the PM of PoK required to swear allegiance to Pakistan?

 

[aqeelPK]

Why is the PM of PoK required to swear allegiance to Pakistan?

Every AJK citizen is required to have allegiance to Pakistan because Pakistan is administering AJK, securing their defence, protecting their constitution, judicial, parliament & financial systems. Pakistan's role in AJK is only until the free & impartial plebiscite is held. Our next course of action post plebiscite is also defined in policy. We are bound to respect the results (even if kashmiris chose India).
Do you know why Pakistan has never made AJK part of its federation? Because the day they would do so, will mark the end of their Kashmir policy.
If India believes they are more stronger than Pakistan & Kashmiris on either side want to join them, then they should push for the plebiscite more than Pakistan.

 

[Local.Dada]

If India believes they are more stronger than Pakistan & Kashmiris on either side want to join them, then they should push for the plebiscite more than Pakistan.

India has totally moved on from the Kashmir issue for now. With all the activities happening in Kashmir with G20 and all the investment coming in from UAE, Hong Kong etc why would they bring attention to something which would give Pakistan a voice regardless of what one thinks of Pakistans stand or involvement.

Unfortunate for the Pakistan side of Kashmiris who are stuck in a limbo but for now they have to fend for themselves.

From what I see except Zardari who comes across as shrewd all Pakistani politicians are very emotional and play their cards in full view.

Indian political system decisions are mostly run by diplomats etc who are some of the most shrewd and calculating people out there.. Not every thing will be a success but there is always a method to the madness. This is regardless of who is in power.

 

[KingKhanWC]

India has totally moved on from the Kashmir issue for now. With all the activities happening in Kashmir with G20 and all the investment coming in from UAE, Hong Kong etc why would they bring attention to something which would give Pakistan a voice regardless of what one thinks of Pakistans stand or involvement.

Unfortunate for the Pakistan side of Kashmiris who are stuck in a limbo but for now they have to fend for themselves.

From what I see except Zardari who comes across as shrewd all Pakistani politicians are very emotional and play their cards in full view.

Indian political system decisions are mostly run by diplomats etc who are some of the most shrewd and calculating people out there.. Not every thing will be a success but there is always a method to the madness. This is regardless of who is in power.

You're on the wrong forum to spread your fake propaganda.


Indian terrorist troops will continue their murder and rape for as long as they can. This was only in Jan.

10 killed in India-occupied Kashmir in one week

https://www.dawn.com/news/1729657/10-killed-in-india-occupied-kashmir-in-one-week

 

[Romali_rotti]

Lol. OP is being treated like an irritating Bangladeshi by his Bollywood ideologues. "Thanks for the support, but no thanks, we don't want any friendship with descendants of Tipu Sultan".

Keep the replies coming hindutvas, keep em coming.

Cap, apologies.

I forgot to mention a crucial point on my last post; If Britstanis were in charge of Pakistan now, they would have liberated Kashmir and also would have eliminated all debts Pakistan is currently sinking in.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Every AJK citizen is required to have allegiance to Pakistan because Pakistan is administering AJK, securing their defence, protecting their constitution, judicial, parliament & financial systems. Pakistan's role in AJK is only until the free & impartial plebiscite is held. Our next course of action post plebiscite is also defined in policy. We are bound to respect the results (even if kashmiris chose India).
Do you know why Pakistan has never made AJK part of its federation? Because the day they would do so, will mark the end of their Kashmir policy.
If India believes they are more stronger than Pakistan & Kashmiris on either side want to join them, then they should push for the plebiscite more than Pakistan.

Do you realize, with Pakistan swapping Kashmiri land with China, if a plebiscite has to take place, now China is also involved ?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Only someone who has hate and cant get over 1947 will say Pakistan is finished. Pakistan will never be finished.

This is why I keep saying Pakistan is finished, posts like this.

You just don't get it, you have no money, no economy, you have to get IMF loans to service your existing debts, when will you Pakistanis wake up ?

Pakistan is so behind, it is impossible from the current standpoint to see a redemption. I do not hate Pakistan or Pakistanis, matter of fact Pakistan doing economically well and keeping their heads away from religious madrasas, fundamentalism etc would only be good for the entire neighborhood.

You keep thinking the way you are now and in another 10 years we will be discussing the same conversation again or about why Pakistan is now in a bigger hole. Matter of fact about 10-12 years ago I made a post here indicating Pakistan would be a failed state and they are just about there currently. It's not hate, just plain reality which most of you Pakistanis can't seem to see, it is staring you in the face but you just refuse to or cant see it.

Anyway keep going with whatever you are doing now, liberating Kashmir, getting more loans to survive or whatever, Pakistan is a lost cause...

 

[aqeelPK]

India has totally moved on from the Kashmir issue for now. With all the activities happening in Kashmir with G20 and all the investment coming in from UAE, Hong Kong etc why would they bring attention to something which would give Pakistan a voice regardless of what one thinks of Pakistans stand or involvement.

Unfortunate for the Pakistan side of Kashmiris who are stuck in a limbo but for now they have to fend for themselves.

From what I see except Zardari who comes across as shrewd all Pakistani politicians are very emotional and play their cards in full view.

Indian political system decisions are mostly run by diplomats etc who are some of the most shrewd and calculating people out there.. Not every thing will be a success but there is always a method to the madness. This is regardless of who is in power.

Wow, when did that happen? India gave up its claim on AJK? Have they reversed 1994 parliamentary resolution on AJK? I thought Indians were still on to the issue based on their ministers (amit shah, jaishankar, rajnath singh) recent statements on making AJK part of India.
Man, things move so fast on geopolitics in 21st century. As per your comment, India has conceded half of the Kashmir and we the Pakistanis are completely ignorant of the fact. Btw, have they also abolished Rs.100 crores fine & 7 years imprisonment for showing AJK as disputed territory on the map?

 

[Local.Dada]

Wow, when did that happen? India gave up its claim on AJK? Have they reversed 1994 parliamentary resolution on AJK? I thought Indians were still on to the issue based on their ministers (amit shah, jaishankar, rajnath singh) recent statements on making AJK part of India.
Man, things move so fast on geopolitics in 21st century. As per your comment, India has conceded half of the Kashmir and we the Pakistanis are completely ignorant of the fact. Btw, have they also abolished Rs.100 crores fine & 7 years imprisonment for showing AJK as disputed territory on the map?

You highlighted my post and still misquoted me.

“For now” is the key word there.

There is a huge investment deal and on top of that G-20 summit:

Did you read my previous posts?


I have no issues repeating to you as you are one of the more sensible ones: if I repeated to posters who keep asking the same thing over and over again least I can do for you.

As I said keeping with the theme of this thread, same thing I said in previous posts if ever Pakistan govt/establishment ever offers what [MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION] is saying that would put current Indian govt in a dilemma.

 

[aqeelPK]

Do you realize, with Pakistan swapping Kashmiri land with China, if a plebiscite has to take place, now China is also involved ?

No. We accidentally included some of the Chinese land (sinkiang) into disputed territory resulting into border conflict with China. Later on, solved the conflict diplomatically. Handed over Chinese land to them & received 750 sq.miles of the grazing land back. It's only Indian claim that Sinkiang territory belonged to Kashmir. No other party (Pakistan, Kashmiris, ppl of disputed Sinkiang territory, China) have such claim.

 

[aqeelPK]

You highlighted my post and still misquoted me.

“For now” is the key word there.

There is a huge investment deal and on top of that G-20 summit:

Did you read my previous posts?


I have no issues repeating to you as you are one of the more sensible ones: if I repeated to posters who keep asking the same thing over and over again least I can do for you.

As I said keeping with the theme of this thread, same thing I said in previous posts if ever Pakistan govt/establishment ever offers what [MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION] is saying that would put current Indian govt in a dilemma.

Holding a global summit or bringing in investments into Indian controlled kashmir does not mean the Indian govt has moved on from kashmir issue for now. India still claims all of the Kashmiri territory is its part. A claim that is opposed by Pakistan & elements in Kashmir. India still has an on going counter insurgency operation in its held territory. They still do reiterate their stance on Kashmir on international forums.
We should be thankful to both of the govts & armies for holding on to the ceasefire on LoC since 2021 which has brought some relief to the Kashmiris and a much needed deescalation in the region. We should also appreciate both govts for bringing in investments into the kashmir region (first Pakistan brought in multi billion $ CPEC projects, now India bringing in multi billion $ from multiple channels). Lets hope, one day soon, permanent solution to the issue will be found. Closing your eyes will not solve the issue.

 

[uppercut]

If Hindu extremism was a threat that why haven't they taken over Bangladesh?

alot of kookoo ideas you have in ur mind.

Exactly !! Especially so when they didn't have any army during 1971 liberation and even now don't really have any serious Military prowess and definitely no nukes.

 

[Romali_rotti]

No. We accidentally included some of the Chinese land (sinkiang) into disputed territory resulting into border conflict with China. Later on, solved the conflict diplomatically. Handed over Chinese land to them & received 750 sq.miles of the grazing land back. It's only Indian claim that Sinkiang territory belonged to Kashmir. No other party (Pakistan, Kashmiris, ppl of disputed Sinkiang territory, China) have such claim.

Problem is, if it went to a plebiscite, UN would not view it as what you are saying. If it did, well perfect, then Pakistan can be happy.

The agreement was moderately economically advantageous to Pakistan, which received grazing lands in the deal, but of far more significance politically, as it both diminished potential for conflict between China and Pakistan and, Syed indicates, "placed China formally and firmly on record as maintaining that Kashmir did not, as yet, belong to India.[9] Time, reporting on the matter in 1963, expressed the opinion that by signing the agreement Pakistan had further "dimmed hopes of settlement" of the Kashmir conflict between Pakistan and India. Under this Sino-Pakistan Agreement, Pakistani control to a part of northern Kashmir was recognized by China.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-...se sovereignty over,mi) of territory to China.

 

[Local.Dada]

Holding a global summit or bringing in investments into Indian controlled kashmir does not mean the Indian govt has moved on from kashmir issue for now. India still claims all of the Kashmiri territory is its part. A claim that is opposed by Pakistan & elements in Kashmir. India still has an on going counter insurgency operation in its held territory. They still do reiterate their stance on Kashmir on international forums.
We should be thankful to both of the govts & armies for holding on to the ceasefire on LoC since 2021 which has brought some relief to the Kashmiris and a much needed deescalation in the region. We should also appreciate both govts for bringing in investments into the kashmir region (first Pakistan brought in multi billion $ CPEC projects, now India bringing in multi billion $ from multiple channels). Lets hope, one day soon, permanent solution to the issue will be found. Closing your eyes will not solve the issue.

If you are trying to find the equivalence between Pakistan government(s) vision and competency with CPEC or other business investments and Indian government’s (state or central) capability of handling foreign investment then I have nothing to add. I will leave it there.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Every AJK citizen is required to have allegiance to Pakistan because Pakistan is administering AJK, securing their defence, protecting their constitution, judicial, parliament & financial systems. Pakistan's role in AJK is only until the free & impartial plebiscite is held. Our next course of action post plebiscite is also defined in policy. We are bound to respect the results (even if kashmiris chose India).
Do you know why Pakistan has never made AJK part of its federation? Because the day they would do so, will mark the end of their Kashmir policy.
If India believes they are more stronger than Pakistan & Kashmiris on either side want to join them, then they should push for the plebiscite more than Pakistan.

If people of PoK and government there swears allegiance to Pakistan and Pakistan is administering the territory its defacto a part of Pakistan.

Why did Pakistan hand over Saksham valley to China?

Why hasn't Pakistan conducted a plebiscite in PoK or handed over the territory and its security and other matters to UN and its peacekeeping forces?

Coming to the UNSC resolution, has Pakistan fulfilled the very first requirement of that resolution?

Can you tell me why did Pakistan invade the sovereign territory of Kashmir, then ruled by its Maharaja?

 

[daytrader]

you been to GB? you know there people?

I have. Been all the way to the border at Khunjerab pass. Back then our Northern Areas were a great tourist attraction and there was no safety concern of any sorts. Don't know if it's still the same but the potential for tourism related jobs is immense. Again though only possible through good governance

 

[NishanKonar]

Pakistan has 2 choices

1. Be at loggerheads with India , maintain a amssive military and keep going down into an economic abyss and end up like Somalia

2. forget Kashmir, bury the hatchet , accept Indian hegemony and restart trade & commerce with India and rescue its economy. Basically become like Bangladesh & Sri Lanka

Now most Pakistani expats will support option 1 bcoz it sounds more macho & attractive and also bcoz they are not really impacted by the economic crisis plaguing Pakistan right now. They dont really care about high inflation or food shortages

But if things keep going south - I m pretty sure lot of Pakistanis living in Pakistan wud start supporting option 2. We are already seeing articles & Opeds in Pakistani newspapers asking for reset in Pakistan's strategy towards India & switch from belligerence to more peaceful & trade based relationship

Ultimately as Bill Clinton famously said - Its the economy stupid. Given Pakistan's protracted economic crisis which shows no signs of improving , I guess 2-3 years from Pakistan will have no choice but to forget Kashmir and talk peace with India

Look at Bangladesh under Sheikha Hasina. She changed track from Khaleda Zia's open hostility towards India to build a more productive relationship with India and today Bangladesh is tremendous economic success story with booming trade & investment ties with India

When you a big economic behemoth in ur neighborhood - its in ur best interests to have friendly ties and take full economic advantage

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pakistan has 2 choices

1. Be at loggerheads with India , maintain a amssive military and keep going down into an economic abyss and end up like Somalia

2. forget Kashmir, bury the hatchet , accept Indian hegemony and restart trade & commerce with India and rescue its economy. Basically become like Bangladesh & Sri Lanka

Now most Pakistani expats will support option 1 bcoz it sounds more macho & attractive and also bcoz they are not really impacted by the economic crisis plaguing Pakistan right now. They dont really care about high inflation or food shortages

But if things keep going south - I m pretty sure lot of Pakistanis living in Pakistan wud start supporting option 2. We are already seeing articles & Opeds in Pakistani newspapers asking for reset in Pakistan's strategy towards India & switch from belligerence to more peaceful & trade based relationship

Ultimately as Bill Clinton famously said - Its the economy stupid. Given Pakistan's protracted economic crisis which shows no signs of improving , I guess 2-3 years from Pakistan will have no choice but to forget Kashmir and talk peace with India

Look at Bangladesh under Sheikha Hasina. She changed track from Khaleda Zia's open hostility towards India to build a more productive relationship with India and today Bangladesh is tremendous economic success story with booming trade & investment ties with India

When you a big economic behemoth in ur neighborhood - its in ur best interests to have friendly ties and take full economic advantage

This is all assuming India wants friendly ties with Pakistan.

NEWSFLASH: It doesn't, regardless of Kashmir. But you know this, so this is yet more smoke and mirrors. India would never let Pakistan economy benefit in any way from relations with India, one of the reasons for the IPL ban going on far beyond any alleged terror event warranted.

 

[NishanKonar]

This is all assuming India wants friendly ties with Pakistan.

NEWSFLASH: It doesn't, regardless of Kashmir. But you know this, so this is yet more smoke and mirrors. India would never let Pakistan economy benefit in any way from relations with India, one of the reasons for the IPL ban going on far beyond any alleged terror event warranted.

I know most Pakistanis wont believe it but most Indians have moved on from Pakistan. The focus in India is more on economy , manufacturing and poverty reduction. If you follow Indian newspapers - Pakistan find little mention to worry. You will find far more stories about Apple opening stores in India or Foxconn opening manufacturing facilities in India

Like you correctly said most Indian expats live peacefully with Pakistani expats - bcoz they are more focused on education / jobs / money than picking fights with others. Most educated Indians have same mindset right now

In fact the current mindset in India is just ignore Pakistan. That's the Jaishankar doctrine. No need for any trade / commerce / negotiations with Pakistan. Focus more on signing new FTAs and investment deals with other countries. This does not hurt India at all - bcoz Pakistan's trade potential is anyways very small. I mean Pakistan has lot more to gain from trade with India. Example right now food inflation is high in Pakistan while India has record surpluses of rice / potato / onion. Imagine if Indian trucks could cross Wagah border loaded with flour / potato / onion - today there wud be no food shortages in Pakistan

So if Pakistan forgets Kashmir , accepts status quo and closes all terror groups like Lashkar e Toiba - I can guarantee you there will be nothing to worry from India. All this talk of Akhand Bharat is loose rhetoric - just like Ghazwa e Hind. Nobody really wants to wage war with Pakistan for more territory - not even for AJK. We are more than happy with AJK being part of Pakistan

 

[daytrader]

Pakistan has 2 choices

1. Be at loggerheads with India , maintain a amssive military and keep going down into an economic abyss and end up like Somalia

2. forget Kashmir, bury the hatchet , accept Indian hegemony and restart trade & commerce with India and rescue its economy. Basically become like Bangladesh & Sri Lanka

Now most Pakistani expats will support option 1 bcoz it sounds more macho & attractive and also bcoz they are not really impacted by the economic crisis plaguing Pakistan right now. They dont really care about high inflation or food shortages

But if things keep going south - I m pretty sure lot of Pakistanis living in Pakistan wud start supporting option 2. We are already seeing articles & Opeds in Pakistani newspapers asking for reset in Pakistan's strategy towards India & switch from belligerence to more peaceful & trade based relationship

Ultimately as Bill Clinton famously said - Its the economy stupid. Given Pakistan's protracted economic crisis which shows no signs of improving , I guess 2-3 years from Pakistan will have no choice but to forget Kashmir and talk peace with India

Look at Bangladesh under Sheikha Hasina. She changed track from Khaleda Zia's open hostility towards India to build a more productive relationship with India and today Bangladesh is tremendous economic success story with booming trade & investment ties with India

When you a big economic behemoth in ur neighborhood - its in ur best interests to have friendly ties and take full economic advantage

It's not as simple as choices you're setting out. Pakistan has nukes, it's not in the league of Bangladesh or Sri Lanka. Plus we have trading partners and support all over the World.

Yea we're going through a tough phase but it's more our own doing. India isn't even in the thoughts of the average Pakistani, we're more concerned about our internal problems and getting sincere leaders in place.

 

[NishanKonar]

It's not as simple as choices you're setting out. Pakistan has nukes, it's not in the league of Bangladesh or Sri Lanka. Plus we have trading partners and support all over the World.

Yea we're going through a tough phase but it's more our own doing. India isn't even in the thoughts of the average Pakistani, we're more concerned about our internal problems and getting sincere leaders in place.

Nukes dont put the food on the table. Nukes wont solve ur debt problem. Regarding ur friends & supporters - right now even your so caled iron brothers like China & Saudi Arabia are reluctant to provide any debt relief

You guys think Pakistan is going thru a temporary phase & will come out strong in future. Thats wishful thinking. Without massive bailouts from foreign donors - Pakistan's economy is cooked

Again many Pakistanis are still living in denial & delusion. One year from now when things get even worse - even folks like you will become from grounded & realistic about the whole scenario !

 

[Energy]

What NishanKonar is saying about priorities for Pakistani people is spot on.

Nobody stands holding Kashmir placards on the roads or tunes into the news for this. In fact Kashmir isn't headline news story at all- very rare.

Pakistani awaam are challenged in their day to day lives and are fed up of the government and their incompetence. The priority is to get the economy back on track and make things easy. Not chest thump about Kashmir. That's for the clowns in the parliament to win votes but do zilch towards any development of that area.

 

[Local.Dada]

What NishanKonar is saying about priorities for Pakistani people is spot on.

Nobody stands holding Kashmir placards on the roads or tunes into the news for this. In fact Kashmir isn't headline news story at all- very rare.

Pakistani awaam are challenged in their day to day lives and are fed up of the government and their incompetence. The priority is to get the economy back on track and make things easy. Not chest thump about Kashmir. That's for the clowns in the parliament to win votes but do zilch towards any development of that area.

That shows Pakistani public just like most normal people want to focus on bettering their lives rather than such rhetoric. That’s in fact a very positive image.

It’s mostly overseas Pakistanis who have time on their hands as they are on a full stomach and know the government will provide the next cheque so lot more time to protest about Islam, Palestine, Kashmir etc. in USA you can’t get away with such things so it’s mostly the diaspora in Canda, UK etc.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This must be an example of NishanKumar's claim that most Indians have moved on from Pakistan. Reply after reply coming from Indian posters really ramming home this we don't care about Pakistan mantra.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It's not as simple as choices you're setting out. Pakistan has nukes, it's not in the league of Bangladesh or Sri Lanka. Plus we have trading partners and support all over the World.

Yea we're going through a tough phase but it's more our own doing. India isn't even in the thoughts of the average Pakistani, we're more concerned about our internal problems and getting sincere leaders in place.

NoKo has nukes too. So?

Bangladesh has more trading partners than Pakistan.

Support? You mean those who will give you high interest loans? Or deposit some money into SBP accounts?Pakistan has had to go to the IMF 23 times since its creation. Its a near permanent begging bowl.

Today India is a 3.8trillion usd economy. Its estimated to hit 5tn in 2026. Pakistan isn't going to match that any which way they may try.

So the ball is in Pakistan''s court. If it wants to fore go violence and start genuinely friendly relations( not a stab in the back) good.

If Pakistan wants walk on the current path of confrontation and using violence.so be it. India will respond in the same vein.

 

[Sabeelbasharat]

As a Kashmiri myself, it's always sort of funny and sad at the same time how both Indian's and Pakistani's think about Kashmir just as a piece of land they both claim and nothing else. Countless atrocities and years of oppression yet people still don't put the wishes of the native people first.

Coming to the main theme of the discussion, Pakistan has already sort of given up on Kashmir, all Pakistan does is make some speeches at the UN and that's it.

 

[uppercut]

As a Kashmiri myself,

Indian Kashmir or Pakistani side?

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

I am hearing that lots of development is going on in Indian Kashmir and I have watched some youtube videos of Pakistani youtubers who are praising India and Indians for those developments. 5G internet, malls, roads, smart city. Would like to know more from members who are from Indian Kashmir. How much truth is in it?

 

[Sabeelbasharat]

Indian Kashmir or Pakistani side?

Indian Occupied.

 

[Sabeelbasharat]

I am hearing that lots of development is going on in Indian Kashmir and I have watched some youtube videos of Pakistani youtubers who are praising India and Indians for those developments. 5G internet, malls, roads, smart city. Would like to know more from members who are from Indian Kashmir. How much truth is in it?

5G internet, malls and roads is all true but it comes along with being a prisoner in your own land and the threat of death looming over your head every time you step out of your own house. India can bring all the development they want to Kashmir, claim it to be an "integral" part all they want, what they will never have is the support of a common Kashmiri but everyone knows that by know and no one seems to care.

 

[uppercut]

5G internet, malls and roads is all true but it comes along with being a prisoner in your own land and the threat of death looming over your head every time you step out of your own house. India can bring all the development they want to Kashmir, claim it to be an "integral" part all they want, what they will never have is the support of a common Kashmiri but everyone knows that by know and no one seems to care.

What threat/force/intimidation do you see in this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOJ2-W85dro&ab_channel=YanaMir

Thats from Srinagar market. Plenty of other videos out there on YT from both sides of Kashmir.

 

[Local.Dada]

5G internet, malls and roads is all true but it comes along with being a prisoner in your own land and the threat of death looming over your head every time you step out of your own house. India can bring all the development they want to Kashmir, claim it to be an "integral" part all they want, what they will never have is the support of a common Kashmiri but everyone knows that by know and no one seems to care.

Let me ask you this, India will not give up on Kashmir because of its policy. Not my words but you and I both know it’s the state policy.

If Kashmir gets independence it won’t be under peaceful circumstances. That’s common sense.

So How do Kashmiris who are land locked with India, China, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc plan to survive amidst them and grow?

You know how it will work with China once they see an opening.

That leaves Kashmir to deal with the 3 subcontinent countries.

I am sure you see difference in Pakistan side of Kashmir

Dealing with Taliban, good luck with that.

So you will be left with a mad and angry India or a hawkish China to deal with.

What’s the post independence plan.

I hope it’s not the usual Islamic ummah rhetoric. Outside of Pakistan that seems to be done in the year 2023. Am I too far off saying that.

What exactly does the average Kashmiri want from freedom?

Are you stopped from praying and other religious duties. I don’t think so. You clearly have access to the internet (assuming you are posting from there). Even if you are not you probably speak via internet to your family.

I wish you and Kashmiris nothing but the best but what’s the long game here?

Also remember for years there is also a section of radicalized youth and there is a drug problem. Imagine in a new country trying to figure out the administration how quickly things can go out of hand.

I am not going to fight you because you know the issues more than me but can you explain without the usual rhetoric of religion etc ?

 

[IamIndian]

5G internet, malls and roads is all true but it comes along with being a prisoner in your own land and the threat of death looming over your head every time you step out of your own house. India can bring all the development they want to Kashmir, claim it to be an "integral" part all they want, what they will never have is the support of a common Kashmiri but everyone knows that by know and no one seems to care.

Common Kashmiri loves India., Pakistan can no longer poison the minds of the people of Kashmiris.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Common Kashmiri loves India., Pakistan can no longer poison the minds of the people of Kashmiris.

So why not hold a fair n free election in Kashmir to see if Kashmiris would support the removal of article 370?

Ohh no - the damn hypocrites of the fascist Indian govt and their supporters would never want to see the result of such an election.

 

[Sabeelbasharat]

Let me ask you this, India will not give up on Kashmir because of its policy. Not my words but you and I both know it’s the state policy.

If Kashmir gets independence it won’t be under peaceful circumstances. That’s common sense.

So How do Kashmiris who are land locked with India, China, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc plan to survive amidst them and grow?

You know how it will work with China once they see an opening.

That leaves Kashmir to deal with the 3 subcontinent countries.

I am sure you see difference in Pakistan side of Kashmir

Dealing with Taliban, good luck with that.

So you will be left with a mad and angry India or a hawkish China to deal with.

What’s the post independence plan.

I hope it’s not the usual Islamic ummah rhetoric. Outside of Pakistan that seems to be done in the year 2023. Am I too far off saying that.

What exactly does the average Kashmiri want from freedom?

Are you stopped from praying and other religious duties. I don’t think so. You clearly have access to the internet (assuming you are posting from there). Even if you are not you probably speak via internet to your family.

I wish you and Kashmiris nothing but the best but what’s the long game here?

Also remember for years there is also a section of radicalized youth and there is a drug problem. Imagine in a new country trying to figure out the administration how quickly things can go out of hand.

I am not going to fight you because you know the issues more than me but can you explain without the usual rhetoric of religion etc ?

Kashmir hasn't been peaceful for decades now? It has resulted in countless loss of lives whether it be civilian, militants or the armed forces. We very well know that we won't be getting freedom under peaceful circumstances just like India and Pakistan also didn't get theirs under peaceful one's.

I don't see how your point about being landlocked within different countries and not being able to grow is relevant here? As a common Kashmiri who despises the Indian occupation I would rather live in a poor down trodden independent country, you need to understand when people are under oppression emotions play a defining role in the thought process, as impractical as it might sound to you, it makes sense to us and we are aware it won't be a walk in the park if we get freedom, but shouldn't stop us from exercising our right to self determination.

There is no post independence plan, that's it. We do have natural resources like water that generate a lot of the electricity for North Indian states, apart from that we also have the recently discovered Lithium deposits, just to name a few things we can use for our survival as a 'country'.

The average Kashmir from freedom wants Kashmir to be a free and independent country, not with India not with Pakistan, a separate entity. This means being free from oppression, occupation, free from feeling like a prisoner in your own land, free to exercise your rights like freedom of speech, and also to get rid of all the uncertainties that come with living in a conflict.



"Are you stopped from praying and religious duties? I don't think so."

3 days ago was the last Friday of Ramadan. Srinagar's central mosque (Jamia Masjid, Nowhatta) was sealed and locked, prayers not allowed. In 2019, the central mosque remain locked for almost 6 months with NO prayers allowed let alone Friday prayers. This is just one example of interfering with the freedom to practice our religion.

Just because I have access to internet now doesn't mean it won't be taken away. It was taken away for 6 months in 2019 and then we had 2G internet for 3 more months. Try living without internet/high speed internet for a better part of the year and I'll see what you have to say.

Tried my best answering your questions without using the Islamic Ummah card.

 

[Local.Dada]

Kashmir hasn't been peaceful for decades now? It has resulted in countless loss of lives whether it be civilian, militants or the armed forces. We very well know that we won't be getting freedom under peaceful circumstances just like India and Pakistan also didn't get theirs under peaceful one's.

I don't see how your point about being landlocked within different countries and not being able to grow is relevant here? As a common Kashmiri who despises the Indian occupation I would rather live in a poor down trodden independent country, you need to understand when people are under oppression emotions play a defining role in the thought process, as impractical as it might sound to you, it makes sense to us and we are aware it won't be a walk in the park if we get freedom, but shouldn't stop us from exercising our right to self determination.

There is no post independence plan, that's it. We do have natural resources like water that generate a lot of the electricity for North Indian states, apart from that we also have the recently discovered Lithium deposits, just to name a few things we can use for our survival as a 'country'.

The average Kashmir from freedom wants Kashmir to be a free and independent country, not with India not with Pakistan, a separate entity. This means being free from oppression, occupation, free from feeling like a prisoner in your own land, free to exercise your rights like freedom of speech, and also to get rid of all the uncertainties that come with living in a conflict.



"Are you stopped from praying and religious duties? I don't think so."

3 days ago was the last Friday of Ramadan. Srinagar's central mosque (Jamia Masjid, Nowhatta) was sealed and locked, prayers not allowed. In 2019, the central mosque remain locked for almost 6 months with NO prayers allowed let alone Friday prayers. This is just one example of interfering with the freedom to practice our religion.

Just because I have access to internet now doesn't mean it won't be taken away. It was taken away for 6 months in 2019 and then we had 2G internet for 3 more months. Try living without internet/high speed internet for a better part of the year and I'll see what you have to say.

Tried my best answering your questions without using the Islamic Ummah card.

Now since your answer gave me more clarity not in the way I was expecting now hear me out…

Kashmir has some of Hindu’s most holiest shrines. The Kashmiri Hindus and Buddhists were in Kashmir before any Kashmiri Muslim. No way if Kashmir becomes independent it will be a secular state and we know how it turns out for minority shrines and people in such countries. Kashmir used to be one of the most secular places on earth but not anymore and I don’t need to expand on that.

If Bengalis, Gujaratis, South states, North eastern. States exist etc can co exist despite having their own independent culture, languages, festivals with multiple religions and caste in a secular constitution then I don’t see why Kashmiris are so unique.

Having a state on religion exclusivity is not practical in 2023. It’s a global world. people need to get along.

Also the lithium discovery etc happened because of India’s infrastructure and technical power. The lithium was there forever.

Anyway I don’t want to indulge on this further. I empathize with you for living in a tough environment. I will leave it at that.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kashmir hasn't been peaceful for decades now? It has resulted in countless loss of lives whether it be civilian, militants or the armed forces. We very well know that we won't be getting freedom under peaceful circumstances just like India and Pakistan also didn't get theirs under peaceful one's.

I don't see how your point about being landlocked within different countries and not being able to grow is relevant here? As a common Kashmiri who despises the Indian occupation I would rather live in a poor down trodden independent country, you need to understand when people are under oppression emotions play a defining role in the thought process, as impractical as it might sound to you, it makes sense to us and we are aware it won't be a walk in the park if we get freedom, but shouldn't stop us from exercising our right to self determination.

There is no post independence plan, that's it. We do have natural resources like water that generate a lot of the electricity for North Indian states, apart from that we also have the recently discovered Lithium deposits, just to name a few things we can use for our survival as a 'country'.

The average Kashmir from freedom wants Kashmir to be a free and independent country, not with India not with Pakistan, a separate entity. This means being free from oppression, occupation, free from feeling like a prisoner in your own land, free to exercise your rights like freedom of speech, and also to get rid of all the uncertainties that come with living in a conflict.



"Are you stopped from praying and religious duties? I don't think so."

3 days ago was the last Friday of Ramadan. Srinagar's central mosque (Jamia Masjid, Nowhatta) was sealed and locked, prayers not allowed. In 2019, the central mosque remain locked for almost 6 months with NO prayers allowed let alone Friday prayers. This is just one example of interfering with the freedom to practice our religion.

Just because I have access to internet now doesn't mean it won't be taken away. It was taken away for 6 months in 2019 and then we had 2G internet for 3 more months. Try living without internet/high speed internet for a better part of the year and I'll see what you have to say.

Tried my best answering your questions without using the Islamic Ummah card.

Just to touch base on your lithium find point, it was found in Jammu and no Kashmir I believe which has a Hindu majority ?. I don't believe they want to separate from India.

 

[Kashmirilion]

So Indians 1000s of miles away in the comfort of the west are telling a Kashmiri how his life is like in an occupied place and how he is so lucky and should get used to it and accept the oppression. You just can't make this up!

 

[Rajdeep]

5G internet, malls and roads is all true but it comes along with being a prisoner in your own land and the threat of death looming over your head every time you step out of your own house. India can bring all the development they want to Kashmir, claim it to be an "integral" part all they want, what they will never have is the support of a common Kashmiri but everyone knows that by know and no one seems to care.

The threat of death only looms when you rebel with stones and arms. If you extend one arm of love, Indians will probably embrace you with both arms. See the love Umran Malik is getting even with 0 talent just bcoz he is from Kashmir.

As you yourself mentioned, India is giving 5G internet, roads, malls every developement in Kashmir. All they expect in return is bit of a loyality. But if you still rebel without any rhyme and reason for some age old prejudice, obviously establishment won't like it. Don't you think you should drop your guns, embrace the developement and live with head held high? Brainwashing has to have some limit mate.

 

[Champ_Pal]

So Indians 1000s of miles away in the comfort of the west are telling a Kashmiri how his life is like in an occupied place and how he is so lucky and should get used to it and accept the oppression. You just can't make this up!

They will be happy under Indian rule of law.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The threat of death only looms when you rebel with stones and arms. If you extend one arm of love, Indians will probably embrace you with both arms. See the love Umran Malik is getting even with 0 talent just bcoz he is from Kashmir.

As you yourself mentioned, India is giving 5G internet, roads, malls every developement in Kashmir. All they expect in return is bit of a loyality. But if you still rebel without any rhyme and reason for some age old prejudice, obviously establishment won't like it. Don't you think you should drop your guns, embrace the developement and live with head held high? Brainwashing has to have some limit mate.

Listen to this sincere advice from an Indian Modi supporter who himself is sitting in the UK. He loves Modi, maybe you should too.

 

[nextover666666]

This is why I keep saying Pakistan is finished, posts like this.

You just don't get it, you have no money, no economy, you have to get IMF loans to service your existing debts, when will you Pakistanis wake up ?

Pakistan is so behind, it is impossible from the current standpoint to see a redemption. I do not hate Pakistan or Pakistanis, matter of fact Pakistan doing economically well and keeping their heads away from religious madrasas, fundamentalism etc would only be good for the entire neighborhood.

You keep thinking the way you are now and in another 10 years we will be discussing the same conversation again or about why Pakistan is now in a bigger hole. Matter of fact about 10-12 years ago I made a post here indicating Pakistan would be a failed state and they are just about there currently. It's not hate, just plain reality which most of you Pakistanis can't seem to see, it is staring you in the face but you just refuse to or cant see it.

Anyway keep going with whatever you are doing now, liberating Kashmir, getting more loans to survive or whatever, Pakistan is a lost cause...

What gives you the right to call it a failed state look at your country first, number on rape capital in the world, millions of people live in slums, number on nation is call center scams, and oh the list goes on mate, saying a country is finished, when it is not actually finished is clear hate.

 

[nextover666666]

lol this conspiracy mumbo jumbo.

West doesnt care what religion you follow.

The high powers of the West do.

 

[nextover666666]

This is paranoid delusion.

Straight facts, if you cant see it than thats on you.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What gives you the right to call it a failed state look at your country first, number on rape capital in the world, millions of people live in slums, number on nation is call center scams, and oh the list goes on mate, saying a country is finished, when it is not actually finished is clear hate.

Too much Bollywood, the odd NDTV article, the odd IPL match and meeting I.T geeks with dodgy English has made some Indian citizens believe they now have Scandinavian living standards in India.

Pakistan is much cleaner than India, with less people living in extreme poverty, slums etc. But both nations are 3rd world, this is a simple fact.

Their point is occupied Kashmir will also transend into Northern Europe style living. This is a complete lie, there is no future if you are living daily with a gun pointed to you, forced not to move, taken into custody for no reason, your female family members living in fear of being raped and others living in fear of being murdered.

The Muslims living there know the truth and many on this forum have spoken their view.

India simply doesn't have the strength to operantly overpower the occupied people. Modi cant even spell strength.

There will be more attacks on Indian occupying soldiers and will continue until freedom is achieved.

 

[Major]

The high powers of the West do.

no they dont

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

no they dont

Nice to see you back, was wondering if you had run away from this thread after the humiliation of Bollypal rejections. So did you see any indication that Pakistan will be able to benfit from settling Kashmir issue in any economic terms with an Indian govt which has no interest in seeing a prosperous Pakistan?

 

[Sabeelbasharat]

Now since your answer gave me more clarity not in the way I was expecting now hear me out…

Kashmir has some of Hindu’s most holiest shrines. The Kashmiri Hindus and Buddhists were in Kashmir before any Kashmiri Muslim. No way if Kashmir becomes independent it will be a secular state and we know how it turns out for minority shrines and people in such countries. Kashmir used to be one of the most secular places on earth but not anymore and I don’t need to expand on that.

If Bengalis, Gujaratis, South states, North eastern. States exist etc can co exist despite having their own independent culture, languages, festivals with multiple religions and caste in a secular constitution then I don’t see why Kashmiris are so unique.

Having a state on religion exclusivity is not practical in 2023. It’s a global world. people need to get along.

Also the lithium discovery etc happened because of India’s infrastructure and technical power. The lithium was there forever.

Anyway I don’t want to indulge on this further. I empathize with you for living in a tough environment. I will leave it at that.

Just because Kashmir has places of worship of other faiths doesn't in any way signify why Kashmiris shouldn't be allowed to exercise their right to self determination. Also secularity is a word thrown around very lightly these days, India on paper is secular however it's the biggest cesspit of Islamophobia.

Kashmir is unique because we don't identify as Indians and don't want anything related to India to be associated with us, plain and simple. We cannot coexist with the people who oppress us.

"having a state on religious exclusivity" isn't even the point here, we were promised a plebiscite and it wasn't fulfilled. Religion has nothing to do with that.

It being "India's infrastructure" means nothing, the natural resources are ours, it's not our fault that we are occupied and have to watch our occupiers use our natural resources for their benefits.

 

[Sabeelbasharat]

Just to touch base on your lithium find point, it was found in Jammu and no Kashmir I believe which has a Hindu majority ?. I don't believe they want to separate from India.

Reasi is a muslim majority region.

 

[Sabeelbasharat]

The threat of death only looms when you rebel with stones and arms. If you extend one arm of love, Indians will probably embrace you with both arms. See the love Umran Malik is getting even with 0 talent just bcoz he is from Kashmir.

As you yourself mentioned, India is giving 5G internet, roads, malls every developement in Kashmir. All they expect in return is bit of a loyality. But if you still rebel without any rhyme and reason for some age old prejudice, obviously establishment won't like it. Don't you think you should drop your guns, embrace the developement and live with head held high? Brainwashing has to have some limit mate.

I wouldn't extend an arm of love to India even if held at gunpoint, that should help you understand how much I as a Kashmiri despise the Indian colonial state. Umran Malik is from Jammu not Kashmir, just because he is a muslim means nothing.

Why should I have loyalty to a state that kills young boys, rape women, carry out fake encounters, harass us on a day to day basis (just to name a few things).

There is no brainwashing lol, we hate India, that's all.

 

[RexRex]

Kashmir is unique because we don't identify as Indians and don't want anything related to India to be associated with us, plain and simple. We cannot coexist with the people who oppress us.

"having a state on religious exclusivity" isn't even the point here, we were promised a plebiscite and it wasn't fulfilled. Religion has nothing to do with that.

Put your head down, obey the state laws and start behaving like the other 28 states in India. Everything will be fine.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Too much Bollywood, the odd NDTV article, the odd IPL match and meeting I.T geeks with dodgy English has made some Indian citizens believe they now have Scandinavian living standards in India.

Pakistan is much cleaner than India, with less people living in extreme poverty, slums etc. But both nations are 3rd world, this is a simple fact.

Their point is occupied Kashmir will also transend into Northern Europe style living. This is a complete lie, there is no future if you are living daily with a gun pointed to you, forced not to move, taken into custody for no reason, your female family members living in fear of being raped and others living in fear of being murdered.

The Muslims living there know the truth and many on this forum have spoken their view.

India simply doesn't have the strength to operantly overpower the occupied people. Modi cant even spell strength.

There will be more attacks on Indian occupying soldiers and will continue until freedom is achieved.

This is really funny. The frustration of posters like him makes me realise how well India has done.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This is really funny. The frustration of posters like him makes me realise how well India has done.

Take a drive around India esp the cities, see the slums , see the poverty, see the abuse of human beings.

What is hilarious is India and its supporters of occupation actually believing they will turn Indian occupied Kashmir into Luxemburg.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What gives you the right to call it a failed state look at your country first, number on rape capital in the world, millions of people live in slums, number on nation is call center scams, and oh the list goes on mate, saying a country is finished, when it is not actually finished is clear hate.

Which country has a number of UN sanctioned terrorists roaming around?

Which country has gone begging to IMF 23 times and still Begging?

Which country couldn't hold cricket matches for close to a decade because a team was attacked there?

Which country''s rape law required X number of male witnesses to prove rape? Before it was changed in 2006.

 

[Technics 1210]

Why doesn't India take back Kashmir? What is India afraid of? Oh wait .... no guts.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why doesn't India take back Kashmir? What is India afraid of? Oh wait .... no guts.

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] bhai says its only a matter of time before India takes back their Kashmir from a nation 7 x smaller in population and 5 x smaller in land mass! Jai Hind!

 

[Technics 1210]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] bhai says its only a matter of time before India takes back their Kashmir from a nation 7 x smaller in population and 5 x smaller in land mass! Jai Hind!

And alledgedly a Trillion+ economy and military pilots that make Top Gun Maverick look like a rookie!

The tea (along with the fake bravado) is most certainly fantastic. Khalistan will be incepted before India drafts plans of recapturing Kashmir, and even then, India will have to face China.

 

[KingKhanWC]

And alledgedly a Trillion+ economy and military pilots that make Top Gun Maverick look like a rookie!

The tea (along with the fake bravado) is most certainly fantastic. Khalistan will be incepted before India drafts plans of recapturing Kashmir, and even then, India will have to face China.

Modi has joined forces with Indian Jones grandson, they are excavating some sort of Hindutva Ark with special powers to gain superiour military advantage.

 

[Technics 1210]

Modi has joined forces with Indian Jones grandson, they are excavating some sort of Hindutva Ark with special powers to gain superiour military advantage.

Even sleepy Joe managed to pull wool over India's eye when he ordered Amreeka to bail from Afghanistan; those RAW agents must have had a bumpy ride home when their safety net was gone - and to think India can retake Kashmir single handedly - they cannot survive without the West - same old story, even after the British left. Forever reliant.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Even sleepy Joe managed to pull wool over India's eye when he ordered Amreeka to bail from Afghanistan; those RAW agents must have had a bumpy ride home when their safety net was gone - and to think India can retake Kashmir single handedly - they cannot survive without the West - same old story, even after the British left. Forever reliant.

Good point. Afghanistan plan was to support TTP and other terrorists to break Pakistan but the Afghan people resisted , eventually sending the Yanks running in the middle of the night. Im sure the Yanks didnt inform the Indians, who were stuck and many possibly killed.

Indians should change their policy, allow Kashmir full independence if Pak agrees(which it will) and work on making a strong SCO economic and armed force which will mean peace with China too. India can then help its own people, taking them out of mass poverty and cleaning up their nation. They are only fooling themselves thinking they will transform IOK to some Oslo looking type land.

 

[Sabeelbasharat]

Put your head down, obey the state laws and start behaving like the other 28 states in India. Everything will be fine.

Your country hasn't been able to break our resolve for 76 years now. In your dreams will we ever "start behaving".

 

[Local.Dada]

Your country hasn't been able to break our resolve for 76 years now. In your dreams will we ever "start behaving".

Clearly you are on a full stomach to come up with all this rhetoric like we prefer emotions than food and jobs.

When someone talks big stuff of bravado like that on a full stomach that itself is a red herring.

Let me ask you this what’s your profession or business? Hope it’s not full time stone pelting. Usually that is left for innocent and naive kids for whom emotions don’t really put food on the table.

Also good to know that Indian army/ intelligence is not coming knocking on your door despite anti-India sentiment like a lot of people on here think happens on the Indian side of Kashmir :

I have my doubts at this point but I will take your word for it that your are posting from the Indian side of Kashmir because on this forum or in general every Pakistani seems to claim some Kashmir connection. I have seen even Punjabi Sharif Family, Bhutto family call themselves Kashmiris too

 

[cricketjoshila]

Good point. Afghanistan plan was to support TTP and other terrorists to break Pakistan but the Afghan people resisted , eventually sending the Yanks running in the middle of the night. Im sure the Yanks didnt inform the Indians, who were stuck and many possibly killed.

Indians should change their policy, allow Kashmir full independence if Pak agrees(which it will) and work on making a strong SCO economic and armed force which will mean peace with China too. India can then help its own people, taking them out of mass poverty and cleaning up their nation. They are only fooling themselves thinking they will transform IOK to some Oslo looking type land.

Pakistanis should advise their country how their country should survive without begging from other countries and IMF.

 

[cricketjoshila]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] bhai says its only a matter of time before India takes back their Kashmir from a nation 7 x smaller in population and 5 x smaller in land mass! Jai Hind!

China claims Taiwan, have they taken it?

Why?

Because they are not fools. A war will destroy their economy. Rather they are happy to slowly increase their influence over Taiwan and make it a dominion of sorts.

But you don't understand that. The importance of economic clout. Else Pakistan wouldn't be on the verge of default and pakistani community in UK wont be near the bottom of the economic ladder.

 

[nextover666666]

Which country has a number of UN sanctioned terrorists roaming around?

Which country has gone begging to IMF 23 times and still Begging?

Which country couldn't hold cricket matches for close to a decade because a team was attacked there?

Which country''s rape law required X number of male witnesses to prove rape? Before it was changed in 2006.

Which country is killing Kashmiris everyday

Which Country is the rape capital of the world

Which country is Muslims leaving in fear

Which country did the sikh farmers lose their right

Which country has the world biggest call center scam running

Which country has the most slums in the world and no toilets.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Which country is killing Kashmiris everyday

Which Country is the rape capital of the world

Which country is Muslims leaving in fear

Which country did the sikh farmers lose their right

Which country has the world biggest call center scam running

Which country has the most slums in the world and no toilets.

Why don't you post some references for your questions?

I can post for mine.

Give facts not opinion.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Which country is killing Kashmiris everyday



Which country did the sikh farmers lose their right

.

Wait what ? Sikh farmers lost their rights >? when ? what rights did they lose ?