Has PTI surrendered to the Establishment and PDM?

[Savak]

With the likes of IK and Shah Mahmood Qureshi behind bars, the existing PTI leadership has adopted a very passive, defensive approach to their mandate being stolen. Barrister Gauhar to be honest just does not look like a leader and looks more like someone who takes dictation from others in the party.

PTI's existing strategy of just relying on the judiciary is mind boggling and defeatist because they know full well that Qazi Faiz Essa is hell bent on fulfilling PDM's and the establishment's agenda against the PTI and there is no chance he will give any just, favorable verdict in favor of PTI.

I am surprised that PTI has not aggressively taken to the streets by now and i refuse to believe that IK is not on board with the existing strategy because denying people their mandate is literally provoking agitation and civil war. If PTI or any other party allows the establishment and their enablers to get away with such horrific robbery, they will be setting a dangerous precedent going forward.

I just don't see any fire in the Belly under the existing PTI leaders like Barrister Gauhar and others to release IK, SMQ from prison or to incite people to come to the streets. It is indeed sad to see that PTI has been brutally scarred into submission after the May 9, 2023 crackdown by the State and the Establishment. The likes of Fazlur Rehman, Pir Pagara, Balochistan's politicians, ANP have taken a more aggressive stance against the establishment for their rigging in the 2024 elections.

 

[adi_62941]

Yes, indeed. Nobody can win against the establishment in Pakistan because they are the system in Pakistan.

The only solution is that all these political parties join hands together, sign a grand democratic alliance, and go against the establishment, which will not happen anytime soon. Nawaz tried to do this in 2014; after gaining a majority, he invited both IK and AZ to make a political alliance in order to minimize the army's influence in politics. But at that time, the great IK was manipulated by retired and ex-military leaderships, and they launched attacks against NS and AZ.

 

[shah_1]

Establishment controls everything. They make files of every civil servants, and judges. A CSP officer is not promoted in Pakistan without security clearance by ISI. They have judges in their pocket by making sure the most of the appointees are picked in trial court and high courts are loyal to the establishment. When you control bureaucracy and judiciary then you control businessmen and large land owners as well, hence why most of the politicians can't do much about it.

 

[Vegitto1]

With the likes of IK and Shah Mahmood Qureshi behind bars, the existing PTI leadership has adopted a very passive, defensive approach to their mandate being stolen. Barrister Gauhar to be honest just does not look like a leader and looks more like someone who takes dictation from others in the party.

PTI's existing strategy of just relying on the judiciary is mind boggling and defeatist because they know full well that Qazi Faiz Essa is hell bent on fulfilling PDM's and the establishment's agenda against the PTI and there is no chance he will give any just, favorable verdict in favor of PTI.

I am surprised that PTI has not aggressively taken to the streets by now and i refuse to believe that IK is not on board with the existing strategy because denying people their mandate is literally provoking agitation and civil war. If PTI or any other party allows the establishment and their enablers to get away with such horrific robbery, they will be setting a dangerous precedent going forward.

I just don't see any fire in the Belly under the existing PTI leaders like Barrister Gauhar and others to release IK, SMQ from prison or to incite people to come to the streets. It is indeed sad to see that PTI has been brutally scarred into submission after the May 9, 2023 crackdown by the State and the Establishment. The likes of Fazlur Rehman, Pir Pagara, Balochistan's politicians, ANP have taken a more aggressive stance against the establishment for their rigging in the 2024 elections.

Seems like PTI has adopted a consolidation strategy. Key members who had been in hiding since the 9 May incident are now coming back. Peshawar High Court is playing a key role by granting these members protective bail and PTI is going to turn KP into a safe haven for its members as even the military is afraid to do anything there, as can be seen from the election results.

PTI's key objective is as follows:

1. Get reserve seats in KP, Centre and Punjab
2. Form government in KP
3. Have Imran Khan and Bushra Bibi's convictions set aside.
4. Keep reminding the people how their mandate was stolen while continue to fight the cases in tribunals/court
5. Make life difficult for PDM 2.0 and Buzdar 2.0 - Do what they can to force an election even if it means further economic problems for Pakistan.
6. Elections in 2.5 years if not sooner.

 

[BouncerGuy]

I will not say that there is any surrender but yes, PTI has been forced to go underground and has been neutralized since Imran and Qureshi went to jail. Dark days for them.

 

[Rana]

Learn to play the long game

Your time will come

Patience

 

[FearlessRoar]

The establishment was the one that gave fame to PTI and made it a popular party.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The establishment was the one that gave fame to PTI and made it a popular party.

Maybe the establishment should have been arrested instead of Imran Khan then.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

If PTI has surrendered then why are they not allowing Imran Khan and other abducted members out of jail? Why are they not accepting PTI's mandate?

Clearly Imran Khan is not giving up and not getting any NRO from the establishment that is what actually bothering them.

 

[Major]

The establishment came and funded PTI, and they discovered they made a Frankenstein.

PTI's issue is that it doesnt know who its real enemy is which is why its losing

The real enemy is the establishment, not PPP or PMLN. PTI can only get protection from PPP and PMLN. This was the whole issue during the VONC. Asad Qaiser knew that when the establishment will come after him, he will have to rely on the very same MNAs who he was stalling that day.

PPP and PMLN hate the establishment, but they know how to play politics. And they know how to protect themselves from it.

After Imran departs PTI, PTI will have to come on table and discuss with PPP and PMLN where they temporary keep there differences aside and go after the establishment. Its the only way to destroy the establishment and that is by having the three major political party go against them. Almost took place when PPP and PMLN did in the early 2000s, mind you that was the time when PMLN treated PPP way worse. Which is why PML Q was created by the army.

 

[Major]

Yes, indeed. Nobody can win against the establishment in Pakistan because they are the system in Pakistan.

The only solution is that all these political parties join hands together, sign a grand democratic alliance, and go against the establishment, which will not happen anytime soon. Nawaz tried to do this in 2014; after gaining a majority, he invited both IK and AZ to make a political alliance in order to minimize the army's influence in politics. But at that time, the great IK was manipulated by retired and ex-military leaderships, and they launched attacks against NS and AZ.

and he deserved it. Imran is paying for his mistakes.

Zardari has his differences with NS, but he knows that the real problem is the establishment. This is why, any improvement in our political system can only be bought after Imran leaves PTI.

 

[Savak]

The establishment came and funded PTI, and they discovered they made a Frankenstein.

PTI's issue is that it doesnt know who its real enemy is which is why its losing

The real enemy is the establishment, not PPP or PMLN. PTI can only get protection from PPP and PMLN. This was the whole issue during the VONC. Asad Qaiser knew that when the establishment will come after him, he will have to rely on the very same MNAs who he was stalling that day.

PPP and PMLN hate the establishment, but they know how to play politics. And they know how to protect themselves from it.

After Imran departs PTI, PTI will have to come on table and discuss with PPP and PMLN where they temporary keep there differences aside and go after the establishment. Its the only way to destroy the establishment and that is by having the three major political party go against them. Almost took place when PPP and PMLN did in the early 2000s, mind you that was the time when PMLN treated PPP way worse. Which is why PML Q was created by the army.

I would love to know what PML N did to the PPP which was worse, did they storm into Bilawal House and bombard it ruthlessly. Did they put Zardari behind bars from 2013 onwards? Both these parties have played friendly opposition with each other

 

[Bewal Express]

and he deserved it. Imran is paying for his mistakes.

Zardari has his differences with NS, but he knows that the real problem is the establishment. This is why, any improvement in our political system can only be bought after Imran leaves PTI.

Yes, you and the crooks want IK to leave the political system so that your guys can loot like the good old days, where they are all friends privately and hate each other other in public. Your party has been nationalised, they have you by the short and curlies and you cant break wind without their permission. IKs achievement is the greatest in PKs history and will be taught in history books for centuries, and what will they say about Billo and AZ LOL

 

[Bewal Express]

The establishment came and funded PTI, and they discovered they made a Frankenstein.

PTI's issue is that it doesnt know who its real enemy is which is why its losing

The real enemy is the establishment, not PPP or PMLN. PTI can only get protection from PPP and PMLN. This was the whole issue during the VONC. Asad Qaiser knew that when the establishment will come after him, he will have to rely on the very same MNAs who he was stalling that day.

PPP and PMLN hate the establishment, but they know how to play politics. And they know how to protect themselves from it.

After Imran departs PTI, PTI will have to come on table and discuss with PPP and PMLN where they temporary keep there differences aside and go after the establishment. Its the only way to destroy the establishment and that is by having the three major political party go against them. Almost took place when PPP and PMLN did in the early 2000s, mind you that was the time when PMLN treated PPP way worse. Which is why PML Q was created by the army.

So @Mamoon claims the PTI was funded by the donations to the hospitals and here you are claiming that the establishment funded them and they claimed that all the money came from abroad lol. But we have had the whole leadership in jail, businesses smashed and the party just won a 2/3 majority. I think you guys need to make up your minds as to which lie you are going to tell.

 

[Major]

I would love to know what PML N did to the PPP which was worse, did they storm into Bilawal House and bombard it ruthlessly. Did they put Zardari behind bars from 2013 onwards? Both these parties have played friendly opposition with each other

They placed zardari in jail and made cuts on his tongue.

Ppp's govt was twice dethrone by pmln.

The 90s was all about pmln going after ppp. It was only when musharaffe came that pmln learned its lesson.

But even during all that fighting, both parties worked in making the constitution better like taking the powers away from president.

As the democratic started to shape, they fixed there differences with it along the way.

Pti will only learn when imran leaves

 

[Bewal Express]

They placed zardari in jail and made cuts on his tongue.

Ppp's govt was twice dethrone by pmln.

The 90s was all about pmln going after ppp. It was only when musharaffe came that pmln learned its lesson.

But even during all that fighting, both parties worked in making the constitution better like taking the powers away from president.

As the democratic started to shape, they fixed there differences with it along the way.

Pti will only learn when imran leaves

By better you mean they got nationalised. What does the PPP stand for? It doesnt stand for anything anymore, it has no identity except it kills innocent people and steals billions as in the Omni group. Look at the pathetic way AZ and Billo sat there like little children being held back for detention because they stole someone's ball at break time.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

the mandate of people of Pakistan has been stolen? where are the protests ? why is public sitting quiet?

 

[Cricket Warrior]

the mandate of people of Pakistan has been stolen? where are the protests ? why is public sitting quiet?

Because here public is even wealthier compared to the government... they just love to raise dust and create hype on social media but in reality most of them are living peacefully.

 

[adi_62941]

and he deserved it. Imran is paying for his mistakes.

Zardari has his differences with NS, but he knows that the real problem is the establishment. This is why, any improvement in our political system can only be bought after Imran leaves PTI.

IK is a cult figure, so whatever he does, he will be praised. Some groups of our public have become radicalized, especially the youth who are in the majority, making Pakistan one of the scariest places to live. The religious extremism forced upon this nation has become a real enemy of the country. Now, these young people will carry this thinking into the next generation and beyond. While the first-grade Muslims, who are Arabs, are progressing in every department of life and becoming more liberal day by day, on the other hand, we are no less than third-grade Muslims, becoming religious zombies day by day.

IK has simply exploited the popular narrative of using religion very well with the help of the establishment.

Even if IK leaves politics, the damage has been done, and we must prepare to reap the bitter fruits for many years to come

 

[BouncerGuy]

. Imran is paying for his mistakes.

So only Imran has made mistakes right? Rest of the lot has taken bath with milk?

 

[adi_62941]

They placed zardari in jail and made cuts on his tongue.

Ppp's govt was twice dethrone by pmln.

The 90s was all about pmln going after ppp. It was only when musharaffe came that pmln learned its lesson.

But even during all that fighting, both parties worked in making the constitution better like taking the powers away from president.

As the democratic started to shape, they fixed there differences with it along the way.

Pti will only learn when imran leaves

I believe AZ has accomplished some splendid work for the political system in the long term. Snatching power from the president and allocating provinces their share were very good steps.

NS was a good administrator and diplomat. Whenever he held power, he endeavored to bring our neighbors closer to us and improved economic activities, which are significant advantages for any underdeveloped country like Pakistan. We should not forget the significant steps he took to not only invite Vajpayee but also Modi to Pakistan for historical tours. Unfortunately, both times the army sabotaged his efforts by initiating the Kargil war and the Pathankot incident. These actions resulted in Modi taking a hard but necessary step to boycott any relations with Pakistan. His policy proved effective for him and his country, as they are standing at peak economic growth in their entire history.

Current Pakistans politics scenarios and system is just a copy paste of India's politics in 70s, 80s and 90s

 

[adi_62941]

So only Imran has made mistakes right? Rest of the lot has taken bath with milk?

But he is the only political leader who built the narrative of being an honest and corruption free person but what happened we all know.

 

[zn426]

I believe AZ has accomplished some splendid work for the political system in the long term. Snatching power from the president and allocating provinces their share were very good steps.

NS was a good administrator and diplomat. Whenever he held power, he endeavored to bring our neighbors closer to us and improved economic activities, which are significant advantages for any underdeveloped country like Pakistan. We should not forget the significant steps he took to not only invite Vajpayee but also Modi to Pakistan for historical tours. Unfortunately, both times the army sabotaged his efforts by initiating the Kargil war and the Pathankot incident. These actions resulted in Modi taking a hard but necessary step to boycott any relations with Pakistan. His policy proved effective for him and his country, as they are standing at peak economic growth in their entire history.

Current Pakistans politics scenarios and system is just a copy paste of India's politics in 70s, 80s and 90s

LOL NS is a good administrator and diplomat? Why is he so wealthy when the rest of the country is suffering? Why do his terms end with debt crises?
I have a ton of issues with the religious stuff behind IK but he encouraged Pakistanis to build Pakistan and turn it into a country worth living in while navigating a pandemic. He wasn't ever going to be able to fix everything in five years but clear progress was being made. All that progress, investor confidence, economic growth, everything got smashed within months with these clowns.
And since you're on this point IK successfully used Modi's strategy against him and getting PK to start doing more high-margin exports i.e. pink salt. The previous administrations were happy just getting a bit of cash for the pink salt while India reaped the real profits and almost succeeding in rebranding it as an Indian product.

 

[adi_62941]

LOL NS is a good administrator and diplomat? Why is he so wealthy when the rest of the country is suffering? Why do his terms end with debt crises?
I have a ton of issues with the religious stuff behind IK but he encouraged Pakistanis to build Pakistan and turn it into a country worth living in while navigating a pandemic. He wasn't ever going to be able to fix everything in five years but clear progress was being made. All that progress, investor confidence, economic growth, everything got smashed within months with these clowns.
And since you're on this point IK successfully used Modi's strategy against him and getting PK to start doing more high-margin exports i.e. pink salt. The previous administrations were happy just getting a bit of cash for the pink salt while India reaped the real profits and almost succeeding in rebranding it as an Indian product.

If you will bring pink salt in a serious economic and political talks and add it in IK success portfolio then what can i say man!!!!!!

 

[CerebralPatriot]

PTI cannot surrender to the establishment, that's a contradiction

PTI as it currently stands can be seen as a splinter group of the establishment gone rogue. The proof is only in the pudding when you have guys like Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Pervez Elahi and Omar Ayub holding senior positions.

With the way things are panning out it looks like the current establishment headed by Asim Munir wants to not just get rid of PTI as a party but also the fragments of the establishment that have hooked their claws deep into PTI.

Although I have never encouraged establishment meddling, if the current group can get rid of PTI and as well as the aforementioned establishment figures than this will be a great move by killing two birds - the toxic rhetoric of Imran Khan and the power of Waderas and the elite class (to an extent)- with one stone

 

[YousafTheBeast]

the mandate of people of Pakistan has been stolen? where are the protests ? why is public sitting quiet?

They’re too busy making TikToks and playing PUBG.

Falsely accuse someone of Blasphemy and they’ll come out like there’s no tomorrow.

 

[Stewie]

The establishment came and funded PTI, and they discovered they made a Frankenstein.

PTI's issue is that it doesnt know who its real enemy is which is why its losing

The real enemy is the establishment, not PPP or PMLN. PTI can only get protection from PPP and PMLN. This was the whole issue during the VONC. Asad Qaiser knew that when the establishment will come after him, he will have to rely on the very same MNAs who he was stalling that day.

PPP and PMLN hate the establishment, but they know how to play politics. And they know how to protect themselves from it.

After Imran departs PTI, PTI will have to come on table and discuss with PPP and PMLN where they temporary keep there differences aside and go after the establishment. Its the only way to destroy the establishment and that is by having the three major political party go against them. Almost took place when PPP and PMLN did in the early 2000s, mind you that was the time when PMLN treated PPP way worse. Which is why PML Q was created by the army.

I think you are wrong. PTI is not created by the establishment. It is also ideologically very different from PPP and PML N which are dynastic corrupt entities led by mafia like families. PTI formation was a result or reaction to such corrupt leaders. The establishment has empowered these parties in the past and used and discarded them to reach their goals. They tried the same with PTI but they are trying to fight back and have exposed them.
So ideologically speaking the establishment are the enemy and PML and PPP are their henchmen. They are not protectors.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes, indeed. Nobody can win against the establishment in Pakistan because they are the system in Pakistan.

The only solution is that all these political parties join hands together, sign a grand democratic alliance, and go against the establishment, which will not happen anytime soon. Nawaz tried to do this in 2014; after gaining a majority, he invited both IK and AZ to make a political alliance in order to minimize the army's influence in politics. But at that time, the great IK was manipulated by retired and ex-military leaderships, and they launched attacks against NS and AZ.

You are kidding yourself if you think the establishment has allowed the old parties to slink back into power in order to dismantle the military state in the future. They have been allowed back precisely because they will toe the line for a few bags of silver and be happy to do it. If IK was prepared to do it, he would never have been deposed in the first place.

 

[Major]

I think you are wrong. PTI is not created by the establishment. It is also ideologically very different from PPP and PML N which are dynastic corrupt entities led by mafia like families. PTI formation was a result or reaction to such corrupt leaders. The establishment has empowered these parties in the past and used and discarded them to reach their goals. They tried the same with PTI but they are trying to fight back and have exposed them.
So ideologically speaking the establishment are the enemy and PML and PPP are their henchmen. They are not protectors.

its pretty common now, and every media channel accepts that PTI was made and funded by the establishment. To say PTI is was not created by the establishment and than says my views are not realistic is really ironic.

Atleast accept your party's basis. And plz, PTI has no ideology. They are still confused and looking for one.

 

[adi_62941]

You are kidding yourself if you think the establishment has allowed the old parties to slink back into power in order to dismantle the military state in the future. They have been allowed back precisely because they will toe the line for a few bags of silver and be happy to do it. If IK was prepared to do it, he would never have been deposed in the first place.

Where did i say that? I just built a hypothesis. I know its a rare occurrence.

 

[Bewal Express]

its pretty common now, and every media channel accepts that PTI was made and funded by the establishment. To say PTI is was not created by the establishment and than says my views are not realistic is really ironic.

Atleast accept your party's basis. And plz, PTI has no ideology. They are still confused and looking for one.

But it was also claimed that JKT funded the PTI, Parvez Khattak also claimed the same and so did Aleem Khan. And look at them today. Wiped out and humiliated. On the other hand Mamoon claimed it was funded by the hospital funds and I asked him why he doesnt pass on the proofs to Munir and Co. Afterall, they are desperate for a genuine case

 

[Bewal Express]

PTI cannot surrender to the establishment, that's a contradiction

PTI as it currently stands can be seen as a splinter group of the establishment gone rogue. The proof is only in the pudding when you have guys like Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Pervez Elahi and Omar Ayub holding senior positions.

With the way things are panning out it looks like the current establishment headed by Asim Munir wants to not just get rid of PTI as a party but also the fragments of the establishment that have hooked their claws deep into PTI.

Although I have never encouraged establishment meddling, if the current group can get rid of PTI and as well as the aforementioned establishment figures than this will be a great move by killing two birds - the toxic rhetoric of Imran Khan and the power of Waderas and the elite class (to an extent)- with one stone

Yet another theory. The PTI has existed for 30 years, never saw power or patronage from anyone. What made the PTI and you guys fail to understand and its the reason why you got only 17 seats, is the youth bulge, IKs charisma and new media. I think you can get the boots to hold your hands for a while but as a political force, you and PPP are finished.

 

[Kianig89]

What more should the public do, voted for IK blindly in RYK an unknown women defeated the brother and son of two Exministers by more than 30k margin.

 

[UP]

PTI is stronger than ever. The majority of country stands with the party. Despite the heavy pre-poll rigging, badmaashi, zulm, whatever injustice you can name, the PTI members beared and now their mandate has been stolen in broad daylight. The crackdown by establishment was unseen and unheard in 75 year history. establishment needs and needed the nro pre Feb 8 and post Feb 8.

The tables have turned massively post Feb 8. PTI can comfortably form majority govts in KPK, Punjab and Federal. establishment are in desperate state and it will all come crashing down in a year. The mandate chors will never survive a year.

This is a last hurrah of Noon league (their time is over) and PPP will have trouble forming next govt in Sindh.

To summarize, PTI has not given up - if they didn’t give up last summer in midst of brutal crackdown, why would they now when they have a gigantic mandate with them? establishment was beaten black and blue by PTI’s under 19 team.

Khan is the only individual in Pak’s history who has defeated the powerful establishment.

 

[Stewie]

its pretty common now, and every media channel accepts that PTI was made and funded by the establishment. To say PTI is was not created by the establishment and than says my views are not realistic is really ironic.

Atleast accept your party's basis. And plz, PTI has no ideology. They are still confused and looking for one.

What’s common now? State controlled media bad mouthing the only party standing up to them? lol.
And you think somehow that’s an indictment of the party? How about the fact the state spent weeks trying to kill their majority win?

But let’s not even go there. First let’s talk about the well defined and robust ideology of their opposition parties that you favor so much? Remind me again what is it really?

What is the ideology of PML and PPP? I think I may know. Steal and loot and plunder the country as much as possible, lock the boots of the company to stay in power. Run overseas when the heat is on, and last but not least the party leadership should stay in family. So send your kids to the most expensive schools in the west because you can afford it, thanks to the money you stole. Then groom them to take over and continue your plundering ways. That’s the ideology that you seem to envy and praise so much?

If our population has educated people who think like you, perhaps it’s best we allow such ideological parties to doom the nation to non existence. Don’t think we deserve any better.

 

[Savak]

I forsee the pti collapsing once IK is out of the picture. The party is all about IK. Everyone else just feeds of him. It will become like every other political party once IK is gone and the masses will no longer be attracted to it.

 

[UP]

I forsee the pti collapsing once IK is out of the picture. The party is all about IK. Everyone else just feeds of him. It will become like every other political party once IK is gone and the masses will no longer be attracted to it.

Party needs good, charismatic and brave grass-root leadership to pop-up every decade to stay relevant. If the party lives with its ‘nazaria’ its not going anywhere. Muraad Saeed is the next leader.

PMLN is done and dusted. Who takes Billo serious or relevant? Family limited parties are in for a tough ride.

 

[BouncerGuy]

the establishment tried everything to make PMLN win. They thought that PMLN would win the 2/3rd majority and they would not have to do any in-front-of-the-eye type rigging so IK would be finished then but what happened was the opposite. PMLN won few penny seats originally so the establishment had to step in to increase their number so the coalition govt could be formed and restrict PTI again.​

 

[Major]

What’s common now? State controlled media bad mouthing the only party standing up to them? lol.
And you think somehow that’s an indictment of the party? How about the fact the state spent weeks trying to kill their majority win?

But let’s not even go there. First let’s talk about the well defined and robust ideology of their opposition parties that you favor so much? Remind me again what is it really?

What is the ideology of PML and PPP? I think I may know. Steal and loot and plunder the country as much as possible, lock the boots of the company to stay in power. Run overseas when the heat is on, and last but not least the party leadership should stay in family. So send your kids to the most expensive schools in the west because you can afford it, thanks to the money you stole. Then groom them to take over and continue your plundering ways. That’s the ideology that you seem to envy and praise so much?

If our population has educated people who think like you, perhaps it’s best we allow such ideological parties to doom the nation to non existence. Don’t think we deserve any better.

State controlled?

If it was state controlled, would the media be admitting to election rigging?

 

[shah_1]

State controlled?

If it was state controlled, would the media be admitting to election rigging?

There was a meeting that took place on 20th February with ISPR and news channel owners according to prominent journalists where they were warned to not extensively discuss poll rigging, let the new government function.


HUM News channels tried to resist in the same meeting. They were warned of dire consequences like Bol new channels if they didn't obey.

 

[Stewie]

State controlled?

If it was state controlled, would the media be admitting to election rigging?

I would much rather you addressed the part about the ideology of your favored parties. lol

 

[Major]

There was a meeting that took place on 20th February with ISPR and news channel owners according to prominent journalists where they were warned to not extensively discuss poll rigging, let the new government function.


HUM News channels tried to resist in the same meeting. They were warned of dire consequences like Bol new channels if they didn't obey.

bro thats the thing. ARY discussed the poll rigging of 2018.

 

[Major]

I would much rather you addressed the part about the ideology of your favored parties.

I know what the ideology of ppp and pmln are, but you will come up with the weak conspiracy argument that there ideology is corruption. So might aswell save my time

 

[Stewie]

I know what the ideology of ppp and pmln are, but you will come up with the weak conspiracy argument that there ideology is corruption. So might aswell save my time

Brother, bhaago nahi, zara dut ke baat karna seekhein. please enlighten us what is the ideology of PML-N, PPP, MQM, JUI, in fact any other party in pakistan you feel is "beneficial" for pakistan? Kindly bear in mind, having an ideology on paper means absolutely nothing unless its backed by policies and actions of that party. You have to practice what you preach.

So please, dont try to run away from this debate this time or dodge it. You have claimed PTI has no ideology. If you dont want your credibility questioned, you have to answer the question above.

 

[Pakpak]

Brother, bhaago nahi, zara dut ke baat karna seekhein. please enlighten us what is the ideology of PML-N, PPP, MQM, JUI, in fact any other party in pakistan you feel is "beneficial" for pakistan? Kindly bear in mind, having an ideology on paper means absolutely nothing unless its backed by policies and actions of that party. You have to practice what you preach.

So please, dont try to run away from this debate this time or dodge it. You have claimed PTI has no ideology. If you dont want your credibility questioned, you have to answer the question above.

Stewie, 2 years ago him and a PMLN supporter listed all their 'projects' done in Sindh and Punjab. I went through with them, dozens of them. Almost all of them never happened, the ones that did happen were mired in corruption allegations and the remaining were just plain lies. In conclusion I remember out of dozens posted by them maybe 1-2 were done. Everything else was a lie.

This is their ideology, PPP and PMLN. Lying and thieving.

 

[Stewie]

Stewie, 2 years ago him and a PMLN supporter listed all their 'projects' done in Sindh and Punjab. I went through with them, dozens of them.Almost all of them never happened, the ones that did happen were mired in corruption allegations and the remaining were just plain lies. In conclusion I remember out of dozens posted by them maybe 1-2 were done. Everything else was a lie.

This is their ideology, PPP and PMLN. Lying and thieving.

He knows what’s going to happen to him and he runs away. Seen it happen one too many times. Zero credibility

 

[Mamoon]

So @Mamoon claims the PTI was funded by the donations to the hospitals and here you are claiming that the establishment funded them and they claimed that all the money came from abroad lol. But we have had the whole leadership in jail, businesses smashed and the party just won a 2/3 majority. I think you guys need to make up your minds as to which lie you are going to tell.

There is never a solitary source of money. PTI has been funded by the following:

1. Shady businessmen with black money like JT and Zulfiqar Bukhari and others who have used PTI as an investment in exchange of important ministries that help them launder money.

2. Establishment between 2013 and 2017 where they heavily invested in PTI to keep the momentum going and keep them relevant. The 2014 long march, that lasted for 4 months, was orchestrated and funded by the establishment and it would have continued for another 2-3 months if it wasn’t for the APS tragedy.

3. Misusing of SKMH funds. SKMH is not only a cancer hospital but also a money generator for PTI. Donations for cancer treatment have been frequently used for PTI activities.

 

[Bewal Express]

There is never a solitary source of money. PTI has been funded by the following:

1. Shady businessmen with black money like JT and Zulfiqar Bukhari and others who have used PTI as an investment in exchange of important ministries that help them launder money.

2. Establishment between 2013 and 2017 where they heavily invested in PTI to keep the momentum going and keep them relevant. The 2014 long march, that lasted for 4 months, was orchestrated and funded by the establishment and it would have continued for another 2-3 months if it wasn’t for the APS tragedy.

3. Misusing of SKMH funds. SKMH is not only a cancer hospital but also a money generator for PTI. Donations for cancer treatment have been frequently used for PTI activities.

So let's look at each one

These shady business men may have thought they may get something but as we have seen they got nothing. Infact IK showed that no one get anything, hence if JKT and others were angry and left him. So that one more tham shows that IK gave nothing.

So if the establishment theory is true, then they would have all.the evidences as they( you claim) funded them and they would have started cases against the old establishment. Alas another epic fail.

The 3rd showes, if they can start cases on iddat this would have been a slam Dunk. But you had Noora govt for 5 years, from 2013 but once again only beghairat liars that didn't support the hospital make these allegations.

So another humiliation for idiots because even if it was 1% true, we would had another 100 cases on top of the 200 fake ones

 

[Mamoon]

These shady business men may have thought they may get something but as we have seen they got nothing. Infact IK showed that no one get anything, hence if JKT and others were angry and left him. So that one more tham shows that IK gave nothing.

JKT was promised Punjab CM post but Supreme Court ruled him out.

Zulfiqar Bukhari was given the reign of HR & tourism development and he has zero credentials for it.

Besides, it is not about what they were given; it is about the fact that PTI’s election campaign was funded with black money.

Do you think it is morally and ethically justified for Imran to have his politics funded by shady businessmen when he preaches honesty?

 

[Deewana Mastana]

Pakistan is in "safe" hands now.

Watch it become Singapore by 2050.

 

[Rana]

PTI is stronger than ever.

I fail to see this. Nothing is going PTI’s way as of now

You can’t be stronger than ever if you can’t get your way one bit.

 

[daytrader]

PTI has survived the crackdown and is now the only national political party. Pakistan's political dynamics have changed forever with PTI now being a major force. Just a matter of time before it's in power

 

[Bewal Express]

PTI has survived the crackdown and is now the only national political party. Pakistan's political dynamics have changed forever with PTI now being a major force. Just a matter of time before it's in power

I think the mafia will either have to hold PK hostage with the establishment forever, which btw is their only plan because they can never win any genuine election or face the fact they have lost and the combined strength of the mafia is less than 50 seats or around 15% of the vote. By the next election another 25mn potential voters will be added, in addition to the 30mn this time. The fact that a khusra and the Witch are their fronts will destroy their chances with the new generation

 

[Bewal Express]

JKT was promised Punjab CM post but Supreme Court ruled him out.

Zulfiqar Bukhari was given the reign of HR & tourism development and he has zero credentials for it.

Besides, it is not about what they were given; it is about the fact that PTI’s election campaign was funded with black money.

Do you think it is morally and ethically justified for Imran to have his politics funded by shady businessmen when he preaches honesty?

I gave you a full reply and for some reason it was deleted.
JKT was promised no such thing. He was made famous by IK, and had no such standing, if he did he would not have been Humiliated in his own seat.
Zulfi was Minister and no allegations or anything of the sort has been made. As you guys are desperate for cases, send a text to Munir and company and get them to start cases.
If black money was used, its not difficult to prove as all the guys that supposedly gave this money are your own people. Let them come forward, its not as if they have provided " proofs" for iddat etc

Your tripe is debunked but if you still feel that IK is the ladla, feel free to start another 100 cases

 

[Bewal Express]

I fail to see this. Nothing is going PTI’s way as of now

You can’t be stronger than ever if you can’t get your way one bit.

The PTI is the strongest its ever been. We have destroyed the Mafia parties, they can't get 50 seats. We have destroyed the establishment narrative forever. They played the game where they could pretend to be pro Pk and anti Mafia, well that narrative has about much value as used tissues. Everyone knows that PK is in a mess because of the mafia and that Mafia is controlled by the company. I have no doubt it will take time to become a civilised and law obeying state, but we have won

 

[Cricket Warrior]

This whole mafia will soon surrender against PTI because they have already realized that a tsunami of people is behind Khan.

 

[Rana]

The PTI is the strongest its ever been. We have destroyed the Mafia parties, they can't get 50 seats. We have destroyed the establishment narrative forever. They played the game where they could pretend to be pro Pk and anti Mafia, well that narrative has about much value as used tissues. Everyone knows that PK is in a mess because of the mafia and that Mafia is controlled by the company. I have no doubt it will take time to become a civilised and law obeying state, but we have won

Yes mate

Pakistan cricket team was the strongest it ever was under Babar Azam too. We played a Semi Final and Final of the T20 World Cup

Let’s just keep telling ourselves whatever makes us feel good

 

[Bewal Express]

Yes mate

Pakistan cricket team was the strongest it ever was under Babar Azam too. We played a Semi Final and Final of the T20 World Cup

Let’s just keep telling ourselves whatever makes us feel good

I knew that this would go over your head. But intelligent people understand what I mean.

 

[Rana]

I knew that this would go over your head. But intelligent people understand what I mean.

Which ones? The ones that have intellectually excelled in delusion?

 

[Bewal Express]

Which ones? The ones that have intellectually excelled in delusion?

Read it and if you don't understand basic statistics, I can't help.

 

[umoo007]

The establishment was the one that gave fame to PTI and made it a popular party.

Oh it's all Establishment huh!!!! Then why can't Establishment give the same fame to Nawaz Sharif and Asif Zardari??

 

[Kianig89]

PTI getting its teeth back as the time passes now all they need is strong parliamentary politics and not the blunders like resigning from assemblies

 

[rpant_gabba]

The PTI is the strongest its ever been. We have destroyed the Mafia parties, they can't get 50 seats. We have destroyed the establishment narrative forever. They played the game where they could pretend to be pro Pk and anti Mafia, well that narrative has about much value as used tissues. Everyone knows that PK is in a mess because of the mafia and that Mafia is controlled by the company. I have no doubt it will take time to become a civilised and law obeying state, but we have won

This whole mafia will soon surrender against PTI because they have already realized that a tsunami of people is behind Khan.

PDM and establishment is not going to allow another election and and PTI cant force one.

They will keep IK locked up. Public is too weary to go on mass protests.

The current setup works for the establishment.

what events will change the status quo?

 

[Savak]

PDM and establishment is not going to allow another election and and PTI cant force one.

They will keep IK locked up. Public is too weary to go on mass protests.

The current setup works for the establishment.

what events will change the status quo?

Pakistan has to pay $27 billion by the end of the year and its current FX reserves are $3-4 billion. The $6 billion IMF package is not going to be enough. Let the PDM and Establishment take responsibility for the next 7-8 months. There was a reason why none of the parties wanted to take power in the centre and the PML N, PPP had to do so at gun point from the establishment.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Pakistan has to pay $27 billion by the end of the year and its current FX reserves are $3-4 billion. The $6 billion IMF package is not going to be enough. Let the PDM and Establishment take responsibility for the next 7-8 months. There was a reason why none of the parties wanted to take power in the centre and the PML N, PPP had to do so at gun point from the establishment.

Ok. is that going to lead to an election or massive protests?

 

[UP]

IK/PTI needs to play with patience, been through hell since April/22. Need more resilience for another year and a half and this set-up will come crashing down. This is a good time for them to sit in opposition and clear numerous legal hurdles.

 

[Savak]

Ok. is that going to lead to an election or massive protests?

Sadly potentially a Sri Lanka type situation and 1979 Iran type uprising. Fingers crossed.

 

[Savak]

IK/PTI needs to play with patience, been through hell since April/22. Need more resilience for another year and a half and this set-up will come crashing down. This is a good time for them to sit in opposition and clear numerous legal hurdles.

Legal hurdles will depend on the mood of the establishment, our judiciary is a mess where the PDM, ISI blackmails the judges or threatens their family to get favorable verdicts.

 

[Red-Indian]

Pakistan has to pay $27 billion by the end of the year and its current FX reserves are $3-4 billion. The $6 billion IMF package is not going to be enough. Let the PDM and Establishment take responsibility for the next 7-8 months. There was a reason why none of the parties wanted to take power in the centre and the PML N, PPP had to do so at gun point from the Army.

IMF's lending the 6 Billion will be predicated on a rollover of the 27 Billion due. Most of that is due to the IMF itself, China and the gulf countries so that part is doable. The challenge will be with the bond and Sukuk debt

I predict Pakistan can muddle through for a couple of years with a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Beyond that, it's very tough to say. Either a huge piece of luck like a collapse in oil prices or big debt renegotiations and writeoffs or economic collapse. Much will depend on support from the two big powers - China and the US.

In all scenarios, there'll be a lot of pain for the public. Inflation, taxation and subsidy removals. Whether that'll be enough to get the masses on the streets - who knows? I suspect given that Pakistan is a nuclear power, it won't be allowed to go the Sri Lanka way. Some solution will be found.

 

[SportsWarrior]

IMF's lending the 6 Billion will be predicated on a rollover of the 27 Billion due. Most of that is due to the IMF itself, China and the gulf countries so that part is doable. The challenge will be with the bond and Sukuk debt

I predict Pakistan can muddle through for a couple of years with a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Beyond that, it's very tough to say. Either a huge piece of luck like a collapse in oil prices or big debt renegotiations and writeoffs or economic collapse. Much will depend on support from the two big powers - China and the US.

In all scenarios, there'll be a lot of pain for the public. Inflation, taxation and subsidy removals. Whether that'll be enough to get the masses on the streets - who knows? I suspect given that Pakistan is a nuclear power, it won't be allowed to go the Sri Lanka way. Some solution will be found.

Pakistan has to learn that both China and USA have nothing to gain by helping pakistan to completely come out of this mess. They will lose all control if Pak is a powerful independent nation. They will want pak to be perennially at the end but never actually falling over. This will give them huge leverage and Pak will dance to their tunes

Only way for pakistan to come out of this mess is to try and stand on its own legs. Build better relations with India and Afghanistan so that there can be peace in their borders and they can concentrate on Economic growth. India will be happy with current situation on the borders and will stay this way forever as it has nothing to gain. Pak has to make a move to secure it's future

 

[BouncerGuy]

PTI has not surrendered but they have gone on the back foot because their party has been taken to the cleaners by the powerful. All they need is to wait and be patient. If they have to sit in the opposition, they should sit and let the coalition govt run this country again. PDM has been ruling this country in 1 way or the other so PTI should not leave the parliament open for them again.

 

[umoo007]

Which ones? The ones that have intellectually excelled in delusion?

He's saying time is on our side. How many future elections can establishment do rigging in on massive levels? The answer is they can't because they young people who are 16 or 17 right now will be eligible to vote in one or two years and they have seen the injustice and oppression of military establishment with their own eyes and these numbers are just gonna increase with each generation. Military Establishment has exposed themselves and chose to put the hate for them inside their hearts for minimum next 3 to 4 generations for a fake win for their puppets in this election.

 

[umoo007]

Yes, indeed. Nobody can win against the establishment in Pakistan because they are the system in Pakistan.

The only solution is that all these political parties join hands together, sign a grand democratic alliance, and go against the establishment, which will not happen anytime soon. Nawaz tried to do this in 2014; after gaining a majority, he invited both IK and AZ to make a political alliance in order to minimize the army's influence in politics. But at that time, the great IK was manipulated by retired and ex-military leaderships, and they launched attacks against NS and AZ.

Well the people have lost faith in this system and no system can operate without the support of the people.

These political parties in PDM will join hands with anybody who will give them NRO on their corruption cases whether it be Establishment or any political party which and that's why they joined hands with establishment to overthrow Imran Khan because he wouldn't give them NRO on their corruption cases. All of their efforts have always been about saving their corruption money and ensuring that their future generations continue to do corruption via politics. Military Establishment was never really against these parties and has always wanted these parties in power because they are also corrupt to the core and knows that they can be next in the line after accountability of politicians. This is called Elite Capture and all the Elites have united against the people of Pakistan whose majority have realized for the first time that Military Establishment was always part of this corrupt elite and was just putting wool over their eyes all these years in the name of patriotism. The solution is that all people who are not part of this corrupt elite should unite just like they were united on 8th February in voting against this corrupt elite.

 

[Rana]

He's saying time is on our side. How many future elections can establishment do rigging in on massive levels? The answer is they can't because they young people who are 16 or 17 right now will be eligible to vote in one or two years and they have seen the injustice and oppression of military establishment with their own eyes and these numbers are just gonna increase with each generation. Military Establishment has exposed themselves and chose to put the hate for them inside their hearts for minimum next 3 to 4 generations for a fake win for their puppets in this election.

Good luck mate. 16 and 17 year olds if smart enough can see the truth too, and it’s not always the PTI narrative that is the truth. Far from it actually.

 

[umoo007]

If PTI has surrendered then why are they not allowing Imran Khan and other abducted members out of jail? Why are they not accepting PTI's mandate?

Clearly Imran Khan is not giving up and not getting any NRO from the establishment that is what actually bothering them.

Imran Khan and the people have not given up, but it seems like that some of the top leadership has been compromised and they are just content on doing pressers instead of galvanizing people whose fundamental right to elect their government by their votes have been stolen.

 

[umoo007]

Good luck mate. 16 and 17 year olds if smart enough can see the truth too, and it’s not always the PTI narrative that is the truth. Far from it actually.

The Turnout of this Election says otherwise.

 

[Rana]

The Turnout of this Election says otherwise.

What is the PTI senior (above 40) vote bank today? Where they once die hard Bhutto supporters or people who thought that the establishment cannot keep winning again and again, and at some point they let up?

Khan will die, he will be erased from the memory. Maybe a new person will stand up this time and try their luck? The cycle will continue?

 

[umoo007]

The establishment came and funded PTI, and they discovered they made a Frankenstein.

PTI's issue is that it doesnt know who its real enemy is which is why its losing

The real enemy is the establishment, not PPP or PMLN. PTI can only get protection from PPP and PMLN. This was the whole issue during the VONC. Asad Qaiser knew that when the establishment will come after him, he will have to rely on the very same MNAs who he was stalling that day.

PPP and PMLN hate the establishment, but they know how to play politics. And they know how to protect themselves from it.

After Imran departs PTI, PTI will have to come on table and discuss with PPP and PMLN where they temporary keep there differences aside and go after the establishment. Its the only way to destroy the establishment and that is by having the three major political party go against them. Almost took place when PPP and PMLN did in the early 2000s, mind you that was the time when PMLN treated PPP way worse. Which is why PML Q was created by the army.

Why didn't establishment came and funded PTI in 1996? They were too busy with their ladla Nawaz? Why didn't Imran Khan accept Musharraf's offer of Prime Minister ship if he was so desperately in need of Establishment's funding? What kind of an idiot would struggle for 22 years to get his first shot at a government when according to you, he could've easily made a government with establishment's funding. I'll tell you why because Imran Khan is stubborn to a fault on his principles, and he always chooses the hard path because of it. I do agree with your other sentence because he was a Frankenstein to their future plans of corruptions via CPEC and other projects like Recodic.

PTI's issue was that it didn't know who their real enemy was which is why it was losing.

The Real enemy is the Establishment, PPP, PMLN and any other party who is part of the status quo. PTI can only get persecution from PPP and PMLN because they're part and parcel of the status quo and these two years have proved that. The whole issue of VONC was the stalling happened to prevent U.S. approved military coup disguised via democratic means because U.S. was convinced by Bajwa via Hussain Haqqani that Imran Khan is 100% anti US and when ousted, Public will not come out in his support. Asad Qaiser has a soft corner for Military Establishment and was relying on Establishment and not PPP and PMLN that's why he gave the responsibility of quashing that VONC to Deputy Speaker but it didn't matter to them because he's still somewhat loyal to Imran Khan. Why would he rely on these powerless MNAs who have sold their souls to Establishment?

PPP and PMLN used to play this game of hating the establishment but they never really do anything against them via lawmaking even when they are in power? Have you ever wondered why they have not make laws to curb the power of establishment like India has? Because they are corrupt and ISI and MI have files on them and use them to blackmail them and they can't blackmail Imran Khan since he's not corrupt and that's why the Establishment, PPP and PMLN have realized that Imran Khan is the real enemy and an outsider of this corrupt political system which benefits only elites and strengthens the Elite Capture. They know how to play in this corrupt political system but Imran Khan doesn't since he's honest and never played it. They protect themselves by making deals with Establishment due to their corruption and that's why the Establishment is still in power and not in their rightful constitutional place which is to be in barracks.

Whether Imran departs PTI or not, any party that joins hands with PPP and PMLN will be joining hands with Military Establishment in the eyes of 80% of Pakistanis and the political destruction of MQM, ANP, JUI and BAP in this election and any other future election will show that. It's not about PTI and Imran Khan anymore. It's about the true independence of Pakistan which we never achieved and the only way to achieve that is by Pakistanis 100% backing any political entity or figure that isn't in the clutches of Establishment and forcing Establishment to go back to barracks and right now it is only Imran Khan.

 

[umoo007]

What is the PTI senior (above 40) vote bank today? Where they once die hard Bhutto supporters or people who thought that the establishment cannot keep winning again and again, and at some point they let up?

Khan will die, he will be erased from the memory. Maybe a new person will stand up this time and try their luck? The cycle will continue?

It's not about the PTI or Imran Khan anymore. It's about the younger generation today from 14 years to 30 years whose opinion on Establishment has changed forever partly due to Imran Khan and partly due to themselves exposing themselves by brutality, subjugation, oppression, torture and injustice and openly supporting PDM and getting involved in politics and you can't compare this situation to the aftermath of Bhutto's death. What happened with Bhutto shouldn't have happened the way it did, and it was a judicial murder but bhutto was not popular all over the country especially Punjab in 1977 Elections.
Everybody will die. What's your point? It's not about his death but how he lived, and he will be remembered for that in history books. Has Bhutto been erased from People's Memory? No!!! and he wasn't even as popular as Imran Khan now. Nobody can erase anybody from history or anybody's memory, but it could be Establishment's wishful thinking. I bet General Ayub thought that he will erase Fatima Jinnah from people's memory, and I bet General Zia thought that he will erase Bhutto from People's Memory but it's not in their hands. A New Leader might come after Imran Khan whenever that maybe but if Establishment assassinates him like they tried to before, they will find themselves in the same situation that they did but this time in Mainland Pakistan when they assassinated Fatima Jinnah and then had to deal with Shaikh Mujeeb-ur-Rehman which ultimately resulted in 1971 and this wouldn't have happened if they hadn't assassinated Fatima Jinnah, the only leader at the time who could keep the country united.

 

[umoo007]

and he deserved it. Imran is paying for his mistakes.

Zardari has his differences with NS, but he knows that the real problem is the establishment. This is why, any improvement in our political system can only be bought after Imran leaves PTI.

The only Mistake that Imran Khan did is thinking that the Establishment has the best interests of nation in their hearts not knowing that they too are part of this elite corrupt mafia and he is paying for that mistake.

Zardari and N.S. are two faces of the same coin. The only difference between them is Zardari loots the country more cleverly and cunningly than N.S. because he knows that he's not the ultimate super Max pro Ladla like the Sharif Family. They along with Establishment knows that the real problem is leaders like Imran Khan who came from outside the corrupt status quo and can't be bought or blackmailed and hence is a threat to them. Why would they think that Establishment is the real problem? They along with Establishment benefits from this corrupt political system and both the Corrupt Politicians and Corrupt Establishment protects each other's corruption because in doing so lies their survival. This is why they think that any improvement in their future corruption plans and the survival of their corrupt political system can only be bought after Imran leaves PTI but they're wrong since Imran Khan has done his job in waking 80% of young Pakistanis and it has gone beyond PTI and Imran Khan and their problems will not be solved just by removing Imran Khan or PTI for that matter.