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Have Sajid Khan & Noman Ali’s performance proved that Ravichandran Ashwin & Ravindra Jadeja are nothing special?

khyberlion said:
Sehwag is also quite overrated. His stats in SENA are a joke.
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I disagree. Yes his stats in SENA are a joke but Indian fans during that era always underrated sehwag because sehwag batted qith Sachin.

All eyes were on Sachin and hence Sehwag was ignored.

By the time Sachin retired, Sehwag was a has been and was memed for his 2012 pakistan series and was dropped for Dhawan eventually.

Everyone finds excuses for Sachin in 2003 claiming he faced Mcgrath which is why he failed and the target was 360.

No one appreciates Sehwag striking it at 101 and scoring 82 of 81 against mcgrath, Hodge, Gillipsie etc. No one dominated that attack but sehwag did.

Sehwag however got no backing in that game and eventually he got run out due to stupidity of the other batter.

Had Sachin or anyone else backed him, India may have won or gotten close to that target in 2003.

Everyone viewed sehwag as a hindrance to Sachin or just average when in reality Sehwag played more important knocks In his career then Sachin did.

Infact One complaint for Sachin later on his career was that by late 2000's he would slow down for his milestones and it would cost the team.

By 2011 and 2012 any time Sachin scored a century the team would lose, With only asia cup 2012 vs Pakistan being an exception.

2012 Bangladesh game was a hilarious innings from the God himself.

Sehwag on the other hand never did that. Infact one trend about sehwag from his debut to his retirement was that he'd always get his 50's or 100's with a 4 or a 6.

Never slowed down.
 
Brilliant bowling by the guys chacha Nomi showed that if the ball spins his bowling intelligence is on another level. Sajid showed that just like Nomi he looks a different beast with a bit help and also bit of hard work on angle of seam of the spinning ball. Well done both
 
Wasim Ghulam said:
well for sake of argument , UAE was not our home exactly. India has been better team so they won everything with these spin traps. particularly after 2012 2-1 defeat against Eng , Same team that was demolished 3-0 by Pak in UAE , India started to churn out dust bowls .. Credit to India for winning everything. but point is even mediocre team like Pak was unbeaten with similar tactics
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Let me give you a few stats

India lost one series between 1989 to 1999. One series between 2000 to 2011. And one series between 2012 till 2024.

India historically has long periods of dominance at home.

Pakistan loses to Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.

There is no comparison.
 
Bewal Express said:
Brilliant bowling by the guys chacha Nomi showed that if the ball spins his bowling intelligence is on another level. Sajid showed that just like Nomi he looks a different beast with a bit help and also bit of hard work on angle of seam of the spinning ball. Well done both
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All this based on 2 tests?
 
cricketjoshila said:
Let me give you a few stats

India lost one series between 1989 to 1999. One series between 2000 to 2011. And one series between 2012 till 2024.

India historically has long periods of dominance at home.

Pakistan loses to Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.

There is no comparison.
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One series win on the most tampered pitches in history and these boys have their heads in the clouds. They'll be brought back to earth as sure as night follows day.

And then there are BD fans rejoicing when they have been and will be jabronis forever :facepalm
 
cricketjoshila said:
Let me give you a few stats

India lost one series between 1989 to 1999. One series between 2000 to 2011. And one series between 2012 till 2024.

India historically has long periods of dominance at home.

Pakistan loses to Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.

There is no comparison.
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lol no one is comparing.

point is with these spin traps , Pakistan was unbeaten in 2010-2017 with a lesser quality team using similar tactics. and congratulations for opening account in 2020s
 
Rana said:
@shaz619

I used to see random posts on Facebook with Sajid Khan and maybe Noman Ali bowling in league cricket up north. Do you know which league/teams they played for as overseas pros in England?
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In the midlands I’d know every minute detail, but if it’s up north then the most high profile league is the Lancashire Cricket League and I’ve discovered Sajid Khan use to play for Walsden CC and bat in their top order! Noman on the other hand am not sure, will do some digging, I know people up north but most of them are into football

​

 
shaz619 said:
In the midlands I’d know every minute detail, but if it’s up north then the most high profile league is the Lancashire Cricket League and I’ve discovered Sajid Khan use to play for Walsden CC and bat in their top order! Noman on the other hand am not sure, will do some digging, I know people up north but most of them are into football

​

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Yes. Lancashire league. The league that Produced England's GOAT sir Jimmy. Also Kamran Gulham was Pro for one of the teams in the lancashire league where I was familiar with growing up.
 
RexRex said:
That's shameful. Shoaib Akhtar was larger than life.
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Without a doubt. It’s clear proof some people didn’t watch cricket at the time when they claimed to have watched it.

But they have drastic views about Dhoni etc.
 
shaz619 said:
@Rana Noman Ali played in the Bradford premier league for both Manningham Mills and Bradford & Bingley
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Awesome bro,

I knew I could count on you. I basically needed this information to work out what metrics McCullum and Stokes used to pluck out spinners from the amateur leagues to take them to the SC
 
Rana said:
Awesome bro,

I knew I could count on you. I basically needed this information to work out what metrics McCullum and Stokes used to pluck out spinners from the amateur leagues to take them to the SC
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I wish Stokes was captain when I was playing in the Birmingham Premier League as a leggie,
:babar to get my shot, he would get the HBK/Flair super kick in some burger joint on ladypool road. And in all seriousness, it’s a shame Stokes and Mccullum have lost here, but they are still far ahead of the pack with their forward vision
 
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He has what I would consider a punjabi beard and punjabi celebration style. I wonder what the story is behind it.
 
Mamoon said:
Forgot the mediocre Laxman whose inconsistency was romanticized as tough runs, man of crisis etc.
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None bigger than

Root in Australia is same as Tendulkar in Pakistan

lmao, that has to take the cake :LOL:
 
That’s an interesting take, but it could use some data-driven analysis to back it up. Otherwise it’s just an opinion. Here’s a quick look at the home and away Test bowling averages for some of the best spinners out there:

1. **Muttiah Muralitharan**
- Home: 19.5
- Away: 27.8

2. **Shane Warne**
- Home: 26.4
- Away: 25.5

3. **Rangana Herath**
- Home: 23.6
- Away: 38.6

4. **Ravichandran Ashwin**
- Home: 21.9
- Away: 30.4

5. **Anil Kumble**
- Home: 24.9
- Away: 35.9

Except for Warne, these stats show that spinners usually shine in their home conditions.

Also, let’s be real: keeping up high performance over a long career is tough. You need to stay fit, adapt to how teams strategize against you, and have that hunger to keep pushing. Sajid and Noman have been impressive, but it’s hard to say if they have the mental grit and game plan to take 500 wickets. Getting to that mark usually requires talent from a young age, and there’s not much evidence of that for them as we are seeing these two at their very peaks of development, not how they were in their early 20s.

And let’s not forget, 3500 runs at batting average of 27 at No. 8 is outrageous. It’s like having two No. 7 batsmen in your lineup. Plus, this comes on top of Ashwin’s already incredible bowling stats.

So, in the end, Ashwin is definitely a GOAT in this game. Just because two talented spinners have shown flashes of brilliance doesn't mean they could have reached that legendary status too.
 
Test cricket:-

Ashwin
Jadeja
Kohli
Bumrah
Pant

White ball:-

Kohli
Rohit
Bumrah

India’s phenomenal dominance over last 10 years is down to these players and hence they are greats or future greats.
 
Ab Fan said:
None bigger than

Root in Australia is same as Tendulkar in Pakistan

lmao, that has to take the cake :LOL:
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That is true.

Tendulkar was garbage in Pakistan and averaging 40 on home like pitches is a lot worse than averaging 35 on completely different pitches.

Tendulkar’s 194 was such a pathetic knock Dravid & Ganguly had to declare the innings to put an end to his selfish stat padding.
 
Farabi said:
That’s an interesting take, but it could use some data-driven analysis to back it up. Otherwise it’s just an opinion. Here’s a quick look at the home and away Test bowling averages for some of the best spinners out there:

1. **Muttiah Muralitharan**
- Home: 19.5
- Away: 27.8

2. **Shane Warne**
- Home: 26.4
- Away: 25.5

3. **Rangana Herath**
- Home: 23.6
- Away: 38.6

4. **Ravichandran Ashwin**
- Home: 21.9
- Away: 30.4

5. **Anil Kumble**
- Home: 24.9
- Away: 35.9

Except for Warne, these stats show that spinners usually shine in their home conditions.

Also, let’s be real: keeping up high performance over a long career is tough. You need to stay fit, adapt to how teams strategize against you, and have that hunger to keep pushing. Sajid and Noman have been impressive, but it’s hard to say if they have the mental grit and game plan to take 500 wickets. Getting to that mark usually requires talent from a young age, and there’s not much evidence of that for them as we are seeing these two at their very peaks of development, not how they were in their early 20s.

And let’s not forget, 3500 runs at batting average of 27 at No. 8 is outrageous. It’s like having two No. 7 batsmen in your lineup. Plus, this comes on top of Ashwin’s already incredible bowling stats.

So, in the end, Ashwin is definitely a GOAT in this game. Just because two talented spinners have shown flashes of brilliance doesn't mean they could have reached that legendary status too.
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@mominsaigol Watch and learn
 
Mamoon said:
That is true.

Tendulkar was garbage in Pakistan and averaging 40 on home like pitches is a lot worse than averaging 35 on completely different pitches.

Tendulkar’s 194 was such a pathetic knock Dravid & Ganguly had to declare the innings to put an end to his selfish stat padding.
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What rubbish!

Root is not fit enough to tie the shoelace of kohli as all format batter let alone Tendulkar.
 
Ab Fan said:
What rubbish!

Root is not fit enough to tie the shoelace of kohli as all format batter let alone Tendulkar.
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Root > Kohli as a test batter. Kohli > Root in whiteball.

You can't just use longetivity as a metric for Sachin but throw it aside for kohli. If you do, then Sachin doesn't deserve to be no 2 test batter after Bradman because steve smith from 2014-2020 and sanga without gloves would rank > Sachin.

It's due to longetivity that Sachin gets the no 2 rank.

Kohli ruined his test career. I haven't seen a single test batter who was once considered in the realm of Sachin, Lara, viv and many others in test cricket, completly collapse to the point that he's falling to Laxman level.

Kohli went from Sachin to Younis and now quickly falling into Laxman tier.

If he plays till 40, he'll fall into David Warner tier so basically poor man's sehwag.

It's shocking really. I've never seen a 55 avg batter in test decline that badly.
 
Mamoon said:
Who is talking about all formats? Is that the Indian tactic to change the subject?
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lol as if Root is some legendary player in test cricket. He is not fit enough to tie the shoelace of Rahul Dravid in Tests let alone Sachin Tendulkar. It is a laughable claim that Tendulkar was rubbish in Pakistan, by that logic Root is also rubbish in Pakistan because excluding the Multan test knock where he was overshadowed by Brooks, he has been a walking wicket in Pakistan/UAE over a long sample and in Australia, he is obviously a disaster.

To conclude, most England players are just good to very good and comparable to Pakistani cricketers of their era, they are probably not fit enough to tie shoelace of Australian, Indian and to some extent South African players of their era.
 
Ab Fan said:
lol as if Root is some legendary player in test cricket. He is not fit enough to tie the shoelace of Rahul Dravid in Tests let alone Sachin Tendulkar. It is a laughable claim that Tendulkar was rubbish in Pakistan, by that logic Root is also rubbish in Pakistan because excluding the Multan test knock where he was overshadowed by Brooks, he has been a walking wicket in Pakistan/UAE over a long sample and in Australia, he is obviously a disaster.

To conclude, most England players are just good to very good and comparable to Pakistani cricketers of their era, they are probably not fit enough to tie shoelace of Australian, Indian and to some extent South African players of their era.
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Tendulkar is the batting version of Anderson. His greatness in Test cricket is directly correlated to the number of matches that he played.

Therefore, there is no difference between him, Dravid and other 50+ averaging batsmen in Test cricket.

Root is very much comparable to him and Dravid as long as he averages 50+.
 
Mamoon said:
Tendulkar is the batting version of Anderson. His greatness in Test cricket is directly correlated to the number of matches that he played.

Therefore, there is no difference between him, Dravid and other 50+ averaging batsmen in Test cricket.

Root is very much comparable to him and Dravid as long as he averages 50+.
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Incorrect.

1.Tendulkar is batting version of McGrath.
2. Ashwin is spin bowling version of Anderson but a far better batsman.
3. Root is on the lines of Clarke as a batsman who bowl part time spin.
 
Ab Fan said:
Incorrect.

1.Tendulkar is batting version of McGrath.
2. Ashwin is spin bowling version of Anderson but a far better batsman.
3. Root is on the lines of Clarke as a batsman who bowl part time spin.
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Nonsense. McGrath was a far bigger match winner than Tendulkar can ever hope to be.

Anderson has a far better away record than Ashwin.

Clarke is on the lines of Test batsmen like Kohli. Root is a level higher.

A middle-order Test batsman who averages less than 50 and has less than 10k runs doesn’t belong amongst the greats but Root does.
 
Mamoon said:
Nonsense. McGrath was a far bigger match winner than Tendulkar can ever hope to be.

Anderson has a far better away record than Ashwin.

Clarke is on the lines of Test batsmen like Kohli. Root is a level higher.

A middle-order Test batsman who averages less than 50 and has less than 10k runs doesn’t belong amongst the greats but Root does.
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McGrath and Tendulkar are both equal. Top tier ATG in Tests and ODIs both. Among Top 10 cricketers of all time and widely acknowledged by many cricketers and legends of the game. @Hitman has those links bookmarked and in every list or most, you would have Tendulkar right up there.

Anderson averages 34 in Australia, 34 in South Africa and 30 in India alongwith averaging 34 in Sri Lanka. He is as much a HTB as Ashwin is, although Ashwin is definitely a far better batsman than Anderson.

I like Root and used to rate him high before Pakistanis started making stupid arguments against Tendulkar but I can give him a bit leeway and rate him probably higher than Clarke but fact is his poor record in Australia goes big time against him. You can fail anywhere in the world but failing in Australia is not called for. He is Amla level bat although Amla didn’t failed in any major nation and yeah I can give him a bit more benefit of doubt due to his off spin. A poor man’s Tendulkar would be an apt rating for him with his average hovering around 50-51 and 3300 runs behind SRT test runs tally.
 
Ab Fan said:
McGrath and Tendulkar are both equal. Top tier ATG in Tests and ODIs both. Among Top 10 cricketers of all time and widely acknowledged by many cricketers and legends of the game. @Hitman has those links bookmarked and in every list or most, you would have Tendulkar right up there.

Anderson averages 34 in Australia, 34 in South Africa and 30 in India alongwith averaging 34 in Sri Lanka. He is as much a HTB as Ashwin is, although Ashwin is definitely a far better batsman than Anderson.

I like Root and used to rate him high before Pakistanis started making stupid arguments against Tendulkar but I can give him a bit leeway and rate him probably higher than Clarke but fact is his poor record in Australia goes big time against him. You can fail anywhere in the world but failing in Australia is not called for. He is Amla level bat although Amla didn’t failed in any major nation and yeah I can give him a bit more benefit of doubt due to his off spin. A poor man’s Tendulkar would be an apt rating for him with his average hovering around 50-51 and 3300 runs behind SRT test runs tally.
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Amla retired with a 45 average & less than 10k runs. He is a nobody compared to Root.

McGrath and Tendulkar are definitely not equal, even if we ignore the fact that when they dueled in 2003 World Cup final, McGrath owned him.

Tendulkar the Test batsman is the batting version of Anderson the Test bowler. I will copy paste my post from the other thread which completely exposes the Tendulkar myth.

There have been around 30 instances of an Indian batsman scoring more than 500 runs in a Test series. Batsmen like Gavaskar, Dravid and Kohli managed the fear multiple times. However, interestingly enough, Tendulkar did it 0 times.

Tendulkar played Test cricket for 24 years. However, when you look at the list of most runs scores in a calendar year, you will find his name only twice out of the top 20 and not once in the top 5.

There are 0 instances of Tendulkar scoring 300 in a Test.

In spite of playing the most Test matches in history, 7 batsmen have scored more 200s than Tendulkar and 6 batsmen have scored the same number as he has. This includes two active players in Williamson and Root who should overtake his tally.

Tendulkar had 0 contribution to three of India’s most famous Test wins of the 2000s - Kolkata 2001, Adelaide 2003 and Rawalpindi 2004.
 
Speaking of Ashwin, he frequently gets kicked out of the playing XI in overseas Test matches. I challenge Indian fans to draw up a list of Test legends who used to get kicked out of the team based on the conditions. It doesn’t happen to great players.

This fact alone proves that Ashwin is a mediocre cricketer who has greatly benefited from Indian pitches.
 
Mamoon said:
Amla retired with a 45 average & less than 10k runs. He is a nobody compared to Root.

McGrath and Tendulkar are definitely not equal, even if we ignore the fact that when they dueled in 2003 World Cup final, McGrath owned him.

Tendulkar the Test batsman is the batting version of Anderson the Test bowler. I will copy paste my post from the other thread which completely exposes the Tendulkar myth.

There have been around 30 instances of an Indian batsman scoring more than 500 runs in a Test series. Batsmen like Gavaskar, Dravid and Kohli managed the fear multiple times. However, interestingly enough, Tendulkar did it 0 times.

Tendulkar played Test cricket for 24 years. However, when you look at the list of most runs scores in a calendar year, you will find his name only twice out of the top 20 and not once in the top 5.

There are 0 instances of Tendulkar scoring 300 in a Test.

In spite of playing the most Test matches in history, 7 batsmen have scored more 200s than Tendulkar and 6 batsmen have scored the same number as he has. This includes two active players in Williamson and Root who should overtake his tally.

Tendulkar had 0 contribution to three of India’s most famous Test wins of the 2000s - Kolkata 2001, Adelaide 2003 and Rawalpindi 2004.
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Amla has standout performances in test series wins and draw in India, England and Australia and they all were very good sides. This alone puts him above Root who has 0 test tons in Australia and 0 test series wins/ draws in India and Australia.

2003 WC Final is a different ball game. India lost that game as soon as Australia posted 359 runs in 50 overs. It was a total that was unheard before and in a WC Final, it is as good as impossible to chase. One match don’t define a player. Tendulkar won India three World Cup matches vs Pakistan while Wasim and Waqar together couldn’t won one World Cup match vs India. In contrast, Shaheen has won one ICC World tournament match vs India. This doesn’t define anything.

Here we take a look at points you are arguing on,

Most runs in a calendar year is a terrible way to rate players. Everyone knows England plays test cricket most so obviously that title will go to an England player or basically whoever plays more tests.

Back when Tendulkar played, India didn’t played a lot of test matches in one series. It was mostly 3 test match series or sometimes 2 test series also. Only in Australia, we had 4 test series and that too from 2000 onwards. Tendulkar not hitting 500+ runs further emphasises the fact that his stats are not skewed based on one series but he has done well consistently across tours and across countries and still ends with average of 53.78.

200s and 300s are individual records and that only tells us how a certain player has cashed on heavily when offered roads. SRT scored in tough conditions and tough attacks rather than cashing on 5-6 double tons at home or against minnows.

All in all what you are mentioning are just statistical/ personal achievements and nothing else.

Your last point is incorrect. India’s two biggest wins of 2000s overseas were Adelaide 2003 and Perth 2007. Perth was massive in the context and Tendulkar contributed very well in that test match. VVS was pivotal in most of India’s tough wins though, that’s an undeniable fact.
 
Mamoon said:
Speaking of Ashwin, he frequently gets kicked out of the playing XI in overseas Test matches. I challenge Indian fans to draw up a list of Test legends who used to get kicked out of the team based on the conditions. It doesn’t happen to great players.

This fact alone proves that Ashwin is a mediocre cricketer who has greatly benefited from Indian pitches.
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It’s down to conditions. When you have Jadeja who is a significantly better batter and you need a bit of batting to cover up for your main batters incompetence, there was no other option left. Again, Ashwin is not completely kicked out, he is very much in contention and the XI is picked based on conditions and balance of the team.

England didn’t have as many options left in their pace attack which is why they couldn’t kick out Anderson in Asia. They did kicked out Broad very often. Only if they had Archer fit and bowling well alongwith Wood, Anderson too would have to sit out regularly although occasionally he did sit out and picked games as per choice.
 
Ab Fan said:
Amla has standout performances in test series wins and draw in India, England and Australia and they all were very good sides. This alone puts him above Root who has 0 test tons in Australia and 0 test series wins/ draws in India and Australia.
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Overall record matters. Any non-opening Test batsman who retires with a sub 45 average and less then 10k runs has no business being counted amongst the greats. It is disrespectful for Root to be compared to Amla.
Ab Fan said:
2003 WC Final is a different ball game. India lost that game as soon as Australia posted 359 runs in 50 overs. It was a total that was unheard before and in a WC Final, it is as good as impossible to chase.
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Tell that to Sehwag who played a brilliant innings and could have actually helped India to a respectable <100 runs loss if he didn’t get run out. What stopped Tendulkar from playing the knock that Sehwag did?

India could have put Australia under pressure by racing to 100/0 in 15 overs which would have happened if Tendulkar had guts. Instead, he wilted like a rose and wasn’t in the mental space to back himself even though he was in the prime of his career and was playing a batting paradise. His cowardice triggered a top order collapse and India didn’t even put up a fight.

Also, don’t give me this era “cap”. It wasn’t the highest ODI total of the time and interestingly enough, South Africa chased 435 on the same venue 3 years later. Tendulkar should have made a game out of it but he didn’t have the mentality.
Ab Fan said:
One match don’t define a player. Tendulkar won India three World Cup matches vs Pakistan while Wasim and Waqar together couldn’t won one World Cup match vs India. In contrast, Shaheen has won one ICC World tournament match vs India. This doesn’t define anything.
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Don’t change the TV channel. This is the classic Indian move whenever they run out of ammo. Talk about ODIs if you can’t defend Tendulkar’s poor record vs Pakistan in Tests. Talk about Pakistan if you can’t defend Tendulkar’s choke in the 2003 World Cup final.
Ab Fan said:
Here we take a look at points you are arguing on,

Most runs in a calendar year is a terrible way to rate players. Everyone knows England plays test cricket most so obviously that title will go to an England player or basically whoever plays more tests.
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Several batsmen have outscored Tendulkar a calendar year in spite of playing similar number of Tests. There are only 2 Englishmen in the top 10 leading run scorers over a calendar year.
Ab Fan said:
Back when Tendulkar played, India didn’t played a lot of test matches in one series. It was mostly 3 test match series or sometimes 2 test series also. Only in Australia, we had 4 test series and that too from 2000 onwards. Tendulkar not hitting 500+ runs further emphasises the fact that his stats are not skewed based on one series but he has done well consistently across tours and across countries and still ends with average of 53.78.
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Tendulkar was part of 6 Test series in his career where an Indian batsman scored more than 500 runs. He never managed it even once. What stopped him?
Ab Fan said:
200s and 300s are individual records and that only tells us how a certain player has cashed on heavily when offered roads. SRT scored in tough conditions and tough attacks rather than cashing on 5-6 double tons at home or against minnows.
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200s and 300s tell a lot about how a good a batsman is. It is testament of technique, mental application and physical endurance. It is a true show of dominance. Sehwag and Dravid had a far better rate of scoring 200+ scores in spite of batting on the same pitches.
Ab Fan said:
All in all what you are mentioning are just statistical/ personal achievements and nothing else.
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That is all there is to Tendulkar’s Test career. Just stats and personal milestones, nothing else. Also, bear in mind personal milestones that are related to matches played and not an exhibition of dominance like highest average, highest score, 500+ runs in a series, most MOM/MOS etc.

Tendulkar failed to achieve pretty much all the records that are not related to number of matches played.
Ab Fan said:
Your last point is incorrect. India’s two biggest wins of 2000s overseas were Adelaide 2003 and Perth 2007. Perth was massive in the context and Tendulkar contributed very well in that test match. VVS was pivotal in most of India’s tough wins though, that’s an undeniable fact.
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2nd, 5th

Perth win did nothing for India. They still lost the series. The Rawalpindi Test was far more significant because it was India’s chance to win their first ever Test series in Pakistan and Tendulkar contributed nothing.

India were so desperate to win that series that Ganguly and Dravid risked infuriating a billion worshippers when they prevented their god from a selfish stat padding 200 because they couldn’t afford to waste anymore time.

Rawalpindi 2004 was definitely bigger than Perth 2007. As far as Perth 2007 is concerned, his great contribution was 2nd top scorer in the 1st innings and 5th top scorer in the 2nd innings. Yet another example of him getting outshined by his teammates in yet another famous Indian victory.
 
Ab Fan said:
It’s down to conditions. When you have Jadeja who is a significantly better batter and you need a bit of batting to cover up for your main batters incompetence, there was no other option left. Again, Ashwin is not completely kicked out, he is very much in contention and the XI is picked based on conditions and balance of the team.

England didn’t have as many options left in their pace attack which is why they couldn’t kick out Anderson in Asia. They did kicked out Broad very often. Only if they had Archer fit and bowling well alongwith Wood, Anderson too would have to sit out regularly although occasionally he did sit out and picked games as per choice.
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I repeat: no great Test cricketer gets kicked out of the playing XI due to conditions. It has never happened to any of the legendary Test cricketers of the past.
 
Mamoon said:
I repeat: no great Test cricketer gets kicked out of the playing XI due to conditions. It has never happened to any of the legendary Test cricketers of the past.
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Anderson has been dropped quite a few times too. Good Pacers are expected to be effective everywhere and yet,

Away from home:

Ashwin - avg 29 with 8 5-fers in 72 innings [ Double the rate of taking 5-fers with the same average]
Anderson - Avg 29 with 8 5-fers in 149 innings


Over all:

Ashwin avg 23 with 37 5-fers in 196 innings [ Double the rate of taking 5-fers with a better average]
Anderson avg 26 with 32 5-fers in 350 innings

And despite these record, I am only claiming Ashwin = Anderson as bowler. Include their batting and Ashwin defecates Anderson.
 
@Mamoon , you are wrong if you think Perth wasn’t a special win. It was one of the most memorable test wins in Indian cricket history. After all the drama, controversy and poor umpiring that happened in Sydney Test, India were under extreme pressure in Perth which is also regarded as conditions very alien to the style of game which suits India and they delivered despite the odds.

It is right up there as one of the most memorable test wins in Indian cricket history and not just that decade.
 
Ab Fan said:
Anderson has been dropped quite a few times too. Good Pacers are expected to be effective everywhere and yet,

Away from home:

Ashwin - avg 29 with 8 5-fers in 72 innings [ Double the rate of taking 5-fers with the same average]
Anderson - Avg 29 with 8 5-fers in 149 innings


Over all:

Ashwin avg 23 with 37 5-fers in 196 innings [ Double the rate of taking 5-fers with a better average]
Anderson avg 26 with 32 5-fers in 350 innings

And despite these record, I am only claiming Ashwin = Anderson as bowler. Include their batting and Ashwin defecates Anderson.
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Comparing rate of 5 fers for a spinner vs a pacer shows your ignorance. A spinner is always more likely to take 5 wicket hauls due to bowling more overs and longer spells.

The only thing that gets defecated is Ashwin’s ability to influence matches outside Asia.

Anderson has done a lot more in Asia than that Ashwin has done outside Asia.

Again, don’t change the channel by bringing in batting. We are only talking about bowling.
 
Ab Fan said:
@Mamoon , you are wrong if you think Perth wasn’t a special win. It was one of the most memorable test wins in Indian cricket history. After all the drama, controversy and poor umpiring that happened in Sydney Test, India were under extreme pressure in Perth which is also regarded as conditions very alien to the style of game which suits India and they delivered despite the odds.

It is right up there as one of the most memorable test wins in Indian cricket history and not just that decade.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say it wasn’t special. However, it wasn’t bigger than Rawalpindi. I’m sure you didn’t watch any of those matches live because if you did, you wouldn’t have made this assessment. No old and genuine Indian fan would disagree with the assertion that Kolkata, Adelaide and Rawalpindi were three of India’s greatest Test wins of the 2000s.
 
Enjoying seeing the new Mamoon resurgence where he is now targetting Indian players. This place is going to become enjoyable again.
 
Mamoon said:
Speaking of Ashwin, he frequently gets kicked out of the playing XI in overseas Test matches. I challenge Indian fans to draw up a list of Test legends who used to get kicked out of the team based on the conditions. It doesn’t happen to great players.

This fact alone proves that Ashwin is a mediocre cricketer who has greatly benefited from Indian pitches.
Click to expand...
Can’t argue with this point - very well made
 
Due to lack of data we need to extrapolate to make a comparison. We will use England as they are the only sides Ashwin and Noman both played against in 2024.

Ashwin V England in 2024. 5 matches 26 Wickets at 24.8

Noman Ali V England in 2024. 2 matches 20 wickets at 13.85.

Based on this if someone says that Ashwin is around half the bowler that Noman is then they wouldn't be far off.
 
Ab Fan said:
Incorrect.

1.Tendulkar is batting version of McGrath.
2. Ashwin is spin bowling version of Anderson but a far better batsman.
3. Root is on the lines of Clarke as a batsman who bowl part time spin.
Click to expand...
1) Mcgrath truly was the God of Bowling. Their hasn't been a single batsmen who has ever dominated Mcgrath, In the same way their isnt a single bowler who ever dominated Bradman.

Sachin gets points for longetivity. Otherwise theirs nothing suggesting that he was heaps and shoulders > the rest. He just lasted longer while the others fizzled out. For example sanga without gloves and steve smith 2014-2020 are far superior in tests then Sachin ever was, but these 2 fizzled out while Sachin maintained form.

2) Anderson isn't anything special. He's the same as Tendulkar aka quantity and consistency over year by year quality. However Anderson isn't a run machine in SENA or Asian conditons and he has 5 wicket hauls everywhere. Ashwin is a circus clown in SENA, especially sa. He can do well on Indian pitches where satner showed him up lol and medicre spinners like Anil kumble can perform.

Ashwin is the most rubbish spinner I've ever seen in overseas conditons.

3) Root is better then Clarke as a test batsmen. Root is in Pointing's tier with the exception of Pointing sucking hard in India. Root is comfortably behind Prime steve smith and Sachin though. That I agree on.
 
@Ab Fan you need to stop saying Anderson Anderson and using him as a metric.

Unless your 5 years old or have no understanding of cricket, No one views Anderson as a goat. And no one is claiming him to be a goat.

Him getting dropped means nothing, cause he ain't an atg.

All we said was that he's a better cricketer then Ashwin because he is more or less consistent in all conditions while Ashwin is horrible in SENA and bcci drops him 50% of the time because they know he's a virtual run machine in aus and sa.

It'll be a miracle is ashwin is taken to aus cause bcci knows full well he'll be tonked into next week.

As for you individual brilliance matches, It means as much as yasir Shah scoring a century in aus or Abdullah shafiq scoring a 111 in sri lanka , you'll find 1 or 2 innings. It's not a viable metric.
 
Mamoon said:
Comparing rate of 5 fers for a spinner vs a pacer shows your ignorance. A spinner is always more likely to take 5 wicket hauls due to bowling more overs and longer spells.

The only thing that gets defecated is Ashwin’s ability to influence matches outside Asia.

Anderson has done a lot more in Asia than that Ashwin has done outside Asia.

Again, don’t change the channel by bringing in batting. We are only talking about bowling.
Click to expand...
Then you can’t compare plain averages also of spinners vs pacers for the same reason you mentioned. Yet in plain averages, they are both at same level. Ashwin has some top notch spells in Edgabaston, Melbourne, Adelaide where he was the one to lead the bowling attack by picking top order wickets.

Anderson has been average not only in the challenge of Asia but also massively in Australia and South Africa where he averages 34 in both nations. Ashwin has been superb in Asia and Windies and has a decent record for a spinner in England and Australia. Many spinners in Australia are having far worse record and no impact in the game.

www.espncricinfo.com

ENG vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 1st Test at Birmingham, August 01 - 04, 2018

Get cricket scorecard of 1st Test, ENG vs IND, India tour of England 2018 at Edgbaston, Birmingham dated August 01 - 04, 2018.
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com

www.espncricinfo.com

AUS vs IND, India in Australia 2020/21, 2nd Test at Melbourne, December 26 - 29, 2020 - Full Scorecard

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, AUS vs IND, India in Australia 2020/21 at Melbourne Cricket Ground dated December 26 - 29, 2020.
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com

I have provided enough evidence to make my claim that Ashwin and Anderson are both at same level due to similar impact being part of same era. Honestly, my evidences proves Ashwin having an edge over Jimmy purely as bowler only. If there is still some doubt, include his batting and it strengthens his claim as an ATG cricketer of the game.
 
mominsaigol said:
@Ab Fan you need to stop saying Anderson Anderson and using him as a metric.

Unless your 5 years old or have no understanding of cricket, No one views Anderson as a goat. And no one is claiming him to be a goat.

Him getting dropped means nothing, cause he ain't an atg.

All we said was that he's a better cricketer then Ashwin because he is more or less consistent in all conditions while Ashwin is horrible in SENA and bcci drops him 50% of the time because they know he's a virtual run machine in aus and sa.

It'll be a miracle is ashwin is taken to aus cause bcci knows full well he'll be tonked into next week.

As for you individual brilliance matches, It means as much as yasir Shah scoring a century in aus or Abdullah shafiq scoring a 111 in sri lanka , you'll find 1 or 2 innings. It's not a viable metric.
Click to expand...
If you don’t rate Anderson, you are free not to rate Ashwin. Being an Indian makes it even easier to you. However, if you watch cricket live rather than watch it via scorecard, you will obviously understand how inaccurate your arguments are. Ashwin averages 21 in Sri Lanka and 19 in Windies with bowl and has multiple 5-fers there. The trend in last few years has been SENA dominated by pacers especially if you watch SA and NZ matches vs India and Asia dominated by spinners so expecting Ashwin to pick a 5-fer as a metric for not rating him is a bit absurd.
 
Ab Fan said:
If you don’t rate Anderson, you are free not to rate Ashwin. Being an Indian makes it even easier to you. However, if you watch cricket live rather than watch it via scorecard, you will obviously understand how inaccurate your arguments are. Ashwin averages 21 in Sri Lanka and 19 in Windies with bowl and has multiple 5-fers there. The trend in last few years has been SENA dominated by pacers especially if you watch SA and NZ matches vs India and Asia dominated by spinners so expecting Ashwin to pick a 5-fer as a metric for not rating him is a bit absurd.
Click to expand...
Why are you speaking in Italics
 
Ab Fan said:
Point is simple. If you don’t rate Anderson as ATG, you are free not to rate Ashwin. Have a cup of coffee and take backseat.
Click to expand...
Why would I take a backseat when you have gotten owned by me?

Their is no argument for a spinner avg 49 and 42 in sa and aus. Literally none.

Nor is their an argument for ashwin not having a single 5 wicket haul in SENA.

The whole recent hears argument doesn't work, Ashwin has been playing for more then a decade.

To top it off, An ATG spinner doesn't get dropped for SENA tours. In no universe will that ever happen or does it happen.

Atg isn't a term that shpuld be thrown around loosely and be given to any Tom dick and Harry let alone a total rubbish SENA run machine in Ashwin.

Anderson is a good bowler and that's it. I'm not insulting Anderson but putting him in atg territory is wild.
 
Mamoon said:
I didn’t say it wasn’t special. However, it wasn’t bigger than Rawalpindi. I’m sure you didn’t watch any of those matches live because if you did, you wouldn’t have made this assessment. No old and genuine Indian fan would disagree with the assertion that Kolkata, Adelaide and Rawalpindi were three of India’s greatest Test wins of the 2000s.
Click to expand...
I mentioned overseas in my previous post.

Top 3 test wins are Kolkata, Adelaide and Perth. Yes all 3 vs Australia.

You are thinking from a Pakistani point of view, I watched all these matches live and sat beside TV whole day to watch these games.

Perth is widely rated as the fastest and most bouncy pitches in the world and that was a serious challenge back then. Back in 2000s, India’s best bet would be Adelaide and Sydney as these two helped spinners. Melbourne was tough and Perth was even tougher.

Nowadays, Melbourne has become a lot easier for batting.
 
mominsaigol said:
Why would I take a backseat when you have gotten owned by me?

Their is no argument for a spinner avg 49 and 42 in sa and aus. Literally none.

Nor is their an argument for ashwin not having a single 5 wicket haul in SENA.

The whole recent hears argument doesn't work, Ashwin has been playing for more then a decade.

To top it off, An ATG spinner doesn't get dropped for SENA tours. In no universe will that ever happen or does it happen.

Atg isn't a term that shpuld be thrown around loosely and be given to any Tom dick and Harry let alone a total rubbish SENA run machine in Ashwin.

Anderson is a good bowler and that's it. I'm not insulting Anderson but putting him in atg territory is wild.
Click to expand...
You are just bitter with the fact that India have dominated Australia in Test cricket over last decade with 4 consecutive test series wins and Australia had no clue back then how to defend their fortress despite having players like Steve Smith and Pat Cummins in their arsenal.

There are very few better bowlers debuted in this millennium than Ashwin and Anderson and of course to downgrade Ashwin, now you will try and downgrade Anderson too.
 
@mominsaigol , since you don’t rate Anderson and Ashwin, let me tell Rabada averages 29 away from home vs non minnows.

You probably don’t rate him either and you won’t rate Bumrah because he is Indian of course.

So, do you rate any fast bowler of this millennium outside of Dale Steyn? We are into 25 years of this millennium than.

Well get owned now again if you don’t wanna take backseat just like you got owned a few days ago. @jeeteshssaxena knows it well. :kp
 
Ab Fan said:
@mominsaigol , since you don’t rate Anderson and Ashwin, let me tell Rabada averages 29 away from home vs non minnows.

You probably don’t rate him either and you won’t rate Bumrah because he is Indian of course.

So, do you rate any fast bowler of this millennium outside of Dale Steyn? We are into 25 years of this millennium than.

Well get owned now again if you don’t wanna take backseat just like you got owned a few days ago. @jeeteshssaxena knows it well. :kp
Click to expand...
I don't get what you're trying to say?

Rabada avg 29 away from home is equivalent to ashwin taking zero 5 wicket hauls in SENA and avg 49 and 42 in aus and SA ans gets dropped from oversea tours?

Also less said about @jeeteshssaxena the better, The dude was asking for wtc to be held in India cause he's tried to wtc losses in 2023 and 2022 to Australia in England 🤣🤣
 
Ab Fan said:
^ And I mean those who debuted in this millennium
Click to expand...
I rate Rabada, Anderson and Bumrah.

I just don't rate Ashwin at all.

But I'm in no mood to Hand ATG status like pies.

Ashwin is rubbish, the other 3 bowlers are top tier but atg status hell no.

Rabada will 100% reach atg status though in test. Bumrah? Idk cause he might not get many wickets due to age and workload but we'll see, he possibly might.

Anderson hell no 🤣
 
Rana said:
Also Shaheen Afridi already being better than Shoaib Akhtar
Click to expand...
Huh? Don't you know that shaheen Afridi is the 3rd greatest Pakistani pacer of all time? Only behind wasim and Imran?

Sohaib, waqar all these frauds are nothing more then ball tampering bullies.

Had Haris Rauf played in that era, he would have been an atg and shown the Rawalpindi express how it's done.

Now don't ask me about avg, ER, no of wickets or talk about eras with me. Shaheen no 3 bas I have spoken. We deserve this Humilation 🫠
 
Last edited by a moderator:
mominsaigol said:
I rate Rabada, Anderson and Bumrah.

I just don't rate Ashwin at all.

But I'm in no mood to Hand ATG status like pies.

Ashwin is rubbish, the other 3 bowlers are top tier but atg status hell no.

Rabada will 100% reach atg status though in test. Bumrah? Idk cause he might not get many wickets due to age and workload but we'll see, he possibly might.

Anderson hell no 🤣
Click to expand...
Calling a bowler with 500 test wkts as rubbish is disrespectful and shows you dont know what it takes to achieve that.
You can have your opinion about him being an ATG or not but he isn't rubbish, he cannot be rubbish.

Secondly lets put Ashwin aside for a minute.

This is Jadejas record with the ball in Aus and Sa

AUS - bowling average of 21.78, along with this he averages 44 with the bat

SA - bowling average of 25, one fifer

Has a bad record with the ball in Eng and Nz.

Now the sample size is low, but considering you rate spinners for their performance in SENA, does he qualify as a good bowler or is he also rubbish.

BTW he also averages 21 in WI and 27 in SRL
 
mominsaigol said:
I don't get what you're trying to say?

Rabada avg 29 away from home is equivalent to ashwin taking zero 5 wicket hauls in SENA and avg 49 and 42 in aus and SA ans gets dropped from oversea tours?

Also less said about @jeeteshssaxena the better, The dude was asking for wtc to be held in India cause he's tried to wtc losses in 2023 and 2022 to Australia in England 🤣🤣
Click to expand...
Ashwin away avg is also 29, same as Anderson. Comparing SENA stats for a spinner tells us about your understanding of the game more than anything else.

Ashwin outsmarted Sangakkara and outperformed Herath in their backyard in SL.

Ashwin has absolutely dominated Windies with both bat and ball.

He has 11 player of series award. You are just nitpicking by filtering stat as per preference.

I wish a non Indian player comes who pick 530 test wickets at avg of 23 and scores 3400 runs at avg of 26 with 6 tons and you argue against him claiming he is a rubbish cricketer but you probably won’t because of your undefendable double standards against Indian cricketers.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Calling a bowler with 500 test wkts as rubbish is disrespectful and shows you dont know what it takes to achieve that.
You can have your opinion about him being an ATG or not but he isn't rubbish, he cannot be rubbish.

Secondly lets put Ashwin aside for a minute.

This is Jadejas record with the ball in Aus and Sa

AUS - bowling average of 21.78, along with this he averages 44 with the bat

SA - bowling average of 25, one fifer

Has a bad record with the ball in Eng and Nz.

Now the sample size is low, but considering you rate spinners for their performance in SENA, does he qualify as a good bowler or is he also rubbish.

BTW he also averages 21 in WI and 27 in SRL
Click to expand...
I don't give a kahoot about Jadeja. I didn't bring jadeja into it.

Someone with opinions as crappy as

1) Please host wtc in India.

2) Sachin is > Warner as an all format batter even though Sachin played one international t20 in his life

3) Rizwan deserves pcb captaincy

4) Dhoni is an overseas goat

Has no understanding about the game.

Now ik why you rate Jaiswal > Travis. Travis be giving you way too many nightmares for wtc 2023 and wc 2023 🤣🤣.

India had the perfect opportunity to kill Australia in wtc, No one asked them to let Travis head and Smith butcher them into next week.

Oh and let's not forget the goat kohli being a circus clown in test as usual 🫠
 
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