If Pakistan beat England will you credit Waqar Younis or Mickey Arthur?

[Abid Z]

I know players must perform, the selectors play a role, training camps help and there are lots of other variables.

But just on the coaching side alone I feel that waqar has put a lot into the test team twice, only for someone else to come along and take the credit. What are your thoughts, surely mickey and INZI are too new in the job to really make a substantial difference.

It's a big If but if pak beat Pakistan I think it will owe something to waqar who has been instrumental in establishing a tight test unit.

 

[Pete Rose]

Credit should go to both but with bigger credit to Arthur as he is leading the show.
If we do well in Odis then it's all down to Mickey

 

[yasir]

If we won, it would be more like 2012 England tour of UAE, credit went to Ajmal not really to Mohsin... Here it would be genius of our bowlers and some batsmen(who will be among the runs)... Are we going to see tactically different Pakistani team? - Then Coach will get credit...

I agree with ODI part, if we win all credit to the Mickey... We are horrible in ODI everywhere

 

[Abid Z]

Credit should go to both but with bigger credit to Arthur as he is leading the show.
If we do well in Odis then it's all down to Mickey

Agreed about ODI's but they are the back end of summer so we can take that for granted.

Re tests, Do you think in a month or so that mickey has been around the team that he's done something that waqar hadn't done in 2 or 3 years? It's more or less the same test players and the same back up coaches. I think while Amir might end up the star, back ups such as Yasir, Rahat and sohail are entirely brought in on Waqars watch. Wahab also to an extent, though he is too thick for anybody to make a difference.

Azhar, asad and sarfaraz also. They just seem to be clicking together really well. I fear that as mohsin did before, waqar will take all the criticism and when his decisions look like they were about to work somebody else will take credit.

 

[Abid Z]

If we won, it would be more like 2012 England tour of UAE, credit went to Ajmal not really to Mohsin... Here it would be genius of our bowlers and some batsmen(who will be among the runs)... Are we going to see tactically different Pakistani team? - Then Coach will get credit...

I agree with ODI part, if we win all credit to the Mickey... We are horrible in ODI everywhere

It's a given that players have to perform. But as far as coaches go mohsin wrongly took all the credit for 2012 and boy he won't let anybody forget.

 

[yasir]

It's a given that players have to perform. But as far as coaches go mohsin wrongly took all the credit for 2012 and boy he won't let anybody forget.

If our batsmen score, credit goes to Grant Flower(not to Waqar or Mickey), under him our batsmen have gone consistent and better... Even in Asia and UAE we start winning when batsmen can play long innings and have worked on their short comings... Like Azhar find out a way to tackle Herat, others stop giving wickets to him... Against ENG, they see off Anderson and attack the spinners, same was true with AUS, they did not attack Auses bowlers with new ball, attack them later in the innings...Against spinners master of sweep has helped a lot, well credit goes to YK for teaching everybody how to negate spinners with sweep... All those little things have helped improve our batting, Grant Flower must be credited for that...Let's see if this batting can take a giant step forward and perform in English summer

 

[Rana]

I think the credit will go to Misbah only

 

[Hasan123]

Players and Misbah

 

[Shafi]

Inzamam mainly because we got 2 weeks more to acclimatize even before tour matches

 

[Abid Z]

Inzamam mainly because we got 2 weeks more to acclimatize even before tour matches

Don't you think that most of this fitness and training was time and again emphasised by waqar, who even went as far as saying we have the most unfit players in the world?

 

[Abid Z]

I think the credit will go to Misbah only

True Misbah has been a god send for Pakistan cricket in the last 6 years. But between 2007 -2010 he was on the fringes. I think his partnership with waqar in 2010 was key to forming a nucleus around which the team could be built and the likes of Azhar and asad have become important cogs despite so much criticism thrown at them.

In other words Mickey is getting a ready made team thanks to waqar.

 

[Abid Z]

If our batsmen score, credit goes to Grant Flower(not to Waqar or Mickey), under him our batsmen have gone consistent and better... Even in Asia and UAE we start winning when batsmen can play long innings and have worked on their short comings... Like Azhar find out a way to tackle Herat, others stop giving wickets to him... Against ENG, they see off Anderson and attack the spinners, same was true with AUS, they did not attack Auses bowlers with new ball, attack them later in the innings...Against spinners master of sweep has helped a lot, well credit goes to YK for teaching everybody how to negate spinners with sweep... All those little things have helped improve our batting, Grant Flower must be credited for that...Let's see if this batting can take a giant step forward and perform in English summer

Grant and mushy were hand picked by PCB and I'm sure waqar would have had some input. I'm sure he would have even suggested INZI for selector.

Grant has been good for our batsmen but let's not kid ourselves, the acid test is now.

 

[Slog]

Waqar and Misbah

Like they deserve for 2012 England win

 

[Xeeebon]

Waqar and Inzi...not Arthur or PCB....

 

[Xeeebon]

But here 'If' is too long distance.....

 

[#GreenRoars]

Waqar??? Hell no, he shouldn't even get a mention for this.

Full credits should be given Arthur, Grant, and players.

If we win the series.

 

[Cricketrenew]

Waqar?! please there are few things he should be credited for as coach but winning
ain't one of them.
What a let down he was!

 

[Mamoon]

I will thank God for the miracle that it will be.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Misbah only

 

[Sarfarazian92]

I will thank God for the miracle that it will be.

Lmao. Please be optimistic once in a while.

 

[Hawkeye]

Misbah and his men.

Waqar too, to some extent.

Mickey Arthur and Grant have NOTHING to do with players doing well in Tests for Pakistan. We already were a TOP Test side before these two joined and have just continued that.

The only difference Arthur can make is in ODIs. That's what matters - that will be his test.

 

[New Yorker]

I know players must perform, the selectors play a role, training camps help and there are lots of other variables.

But just on the coaching side alone I feel that waqar has put a lot into the test team twice, only for someone else to come along and take the credit. What are your thoughts, surely mickey and INZI are too new in the job to really make a substantial difference.

It's a big If but if pak beat Pakistan I think it will owe something to waqar who has been instrumental in establishing a tight test unit.

These are the only options? Bit of a clickbait. Even when Waqar was coach I don't think we really understood what he was or was not doing for the team. Most people probably feel it was Misbah's team. But it is not unlikely given his form in the practice games that Misbah will be a bit of a bystander in this series. So yes, players. And Allah

 

[New Yorker]

I know players must perform, the selectors play a role, training camps help and there are lots of other variables.

But just on the coaching side alone I feel that waqar has put a lot into the test team twice, only for someone else to come along and take the credit. What are your thoughts, surely mickey and INZI are too new in the job to really make a substantial difference.

It's a big If but if pak beat Pakistan I think it will owe something to waqar who has been instrumental in establishing a tight test unit.

One could argue the unit has been a bit too tight and unchanging actually. The great irony of Waqar's
tenure is that he failed to develop a single world class pacer, instead favouring brainless pace, basically.
They are very fortunate to have Amir back.

 

[LowKiiSavage]

Niether of the two. I would give credit to the players.

 

[MMHS]

Misbah-ul-Haq.

In cricket 99% is Captain in charge on field, rest is support staff.

 

[Abid Z]

Misbah-ul-Haq.

In cricket 99% is Captain in charge on field, rest is support staff.

This much is true and yes the players have to perform.

But if Pakistan win (and I expect a very tight series) there will be lots of back slapping by the Pcb that they brought in new personnel and therefore were instrumental in beating England away. Therefore let's get it out there now on the eve of the 1st test that waqar's work over the last few years has been crucial in putting the team so high in the rankings. We will be no2 if we win a close series. Remember we only drew against Zimbabwe not so long ago under DAV.

 

[Abid Z]

One could argue the unit has been a bit too tight and unchanging actually. The great irony of Waqar's
tenure is that he failed to develop a single world class pacer, instead favouring brainless pace, basically.
They are very fortunate to have Amir back.

Hmm, one could argue or rather put a number of straw men arguments but the lack of pacer, not that I think it's a necessary yardstick to measure success of a coach, has to do with many factors. We play in subcontinent a lot, have docile pitches and none of the teams in Sc have an out and out match winning pacer such as steyn or Anderson.

 

[Abid Z]

Misbah and his men.

Waqar too, to some extent.

Mickey Arthur and Grant have NOTHING to do with players doing well in Tests for Pakistan. We already were a TOP Test side before these two joined and have just continued that.

The only difference Arthur can make is in ODIs. That's what matters - that will be his test.

Agree fully with this, therefore following on from that let's revisit this thread in a couple of months and see mickey or INZI response to our test wins ((if we win!)

I reckon nobody is gonna give credit to waqar for his work in cementing the same set of players that are now an established unit.

 

[Xeeebon]

Misbah-ul-Haq.

In cricket 99% is Captain in charge on field, rest is support staff.

99% credit to captain!!! You are mentioning TEST cricket,isn't it???

 

[Asim2Good]

Credit go the the boys

 

[daytrader]

IF we do well in ODIs credit should go Inzi for dropping Afridi and Co and Waqar for those recommendations. Waqar put in some work and the ODI was becoming a better outfit. Really hoping the results show now. Arthur should only get credit if there is a clear drastic change in strategy, otherwise a single series is too early to praise him

 

[Shafi]

Don't you think that most of this fitness and training was time and again emphasised by waqar, who even went as far as saying we have the most unfit players in the world?

Off course Waqar as well. But imagine if we have Haroon Rasid as chief selector he will keep bringing TTFs and classic oldies.

 

[hussain.r97]

If Pakistan win this series, I'll put it down to divine intervention

 

[Abid Z]

Off course Waqar as well. But imagine if we have Haroon Rasid as chief selector he will keep bringing TTFs and classic oldies.

Again this was brought up time and again by waqar, that our selectors and PCB generally are out of touch with the rigours and innovations of modern day cricket.

 

[Abid Z]

If Pakistan win this series, I'll put it down to divine intervention

Divine intervention is fine, but it still requires talent, hard work and lots of luck. The pitches in England aren't what they used to be and we are not playing tests in Trent bridge or headingly. If edgbaston is not as fast as last year, these slow wickets especially if batting second give a chance for our weak batting. It'll be competitive.

 

[Abid Z]

No its not the measure of a coach but its ironic because if you would have picked Waqar to contribute in any department it would be developing new pace talent. Well he doubled down on Rahat and 15 Tests later we are still waiting for golden boy to do something special. The less said about Wahab the better. I'd love for Rahat to come good this series but for this to mark a real turnaround he would have to use his brain and show some spine.

But it takes that long, 15-20 tests and a couple of years because in that time a bowler is tested in varied conditions against different opposition and finds his feet in his own team. Steyn, asif, Anderson all went through either poor starts or massive dips to become the bowlers they are.

We should remember that the likes of Shohaib or amir bursting on the scene is a once in a generation occurrence. Slow and steady progression in the era of big bats and placid pitches is the norm.

If Rahat, Imran or sohail come good with a couple of 5 for's would you then accept Waqars input?

 

[New Yorker]

But it takes that long, 15-20 tests and a couple of years because in that time a bowler is tested in varied conditions against different opposition and finds his feet in his own team. Steyn, asif, Anderson all went through either poor starts or massive dips to become the bowlers they are.

We should remember that the likes of Shohaib or amir bursting on the scene is a once in a generation occurrence. Slow and steady progression in the era of big bats and placid pitches is the norm.

If Rahat, Imran or sohail come good with a couple of 5 for's would you then accept Waqars input?

Which currently world class bowler do you know who averaged 35 after 15 Tests? What progression, however slow, have you seen in Rahat? He has if anything only gotten worse. In this class, records this poor are not the norm but the exception and Rahat is lucky to still be in the team. Because we can be pretty sure by now that he will never be a world class bowler, whatever he accomplishes in this series. More signs point to Imran doing well.

You know what is the irony within the irony? Forget about identifying talent, or developing it or whatever. But is it not amazing that Pakistan fast bowlers forgot how to bowl yorkers under the tenure of Waqar Younis?

 

[Abid Z]

Which currently world class bowler do you know who averaged 35 after 15 Tests? What progression, however slow, have you seen in Rahat? He has if anything only gotten worse. In this class, records this poor are not the norm but the exception and Rahat is lucky to still be in the team. Because we can be pretty sure by now that he will never be a world class bowler, whatever he accomplishes in this series. More signs point to Imran doing well.?

Between 2002-2006 with various tests ranging from 12-22

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...mplate=results;tournament_type=2;type=bowling

Brett Lee, Chris Martin, zaheer Khan and of course James Anderson. All have been leaders of the attack at some point despite suffering massive slumps at various times. This is for many reasons of course not just coaches.

You are right about Yorkers though.

 

[Abid Z]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;orderby=wickets;search_player=James+Anderson+;spanmax1=15+sep+2005;spanmax2=15+sep+2007;spanmin1=15+Mar+2002;spanval1=span;spanval2=span;template=results;tournament_type=2;type=bowling

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Waqar??? Hell no, he shouldn't even get a mention for this.

Full credits should be given Arthur, Grant, and players.

If we win the series.

This. Waqar was a let-down as a coach. Never understood why he kept playing U.Akmal as keeper even though Sarfi was in the team

 

[Abid Z]

Waqar made a lot of mistakes with the odi team granted, but as regards the test team he was instrumental in taking it to where it is now.

Between May 2014-April 2016 his reports highlight that he was spot on with his recommendations esp on fitness and selection committee overhaul.

Yes it goes without saying that ultimately the players and captain deliver the result. But if comparing the two coaches is the acid test, then surely mickey hasn't been in the team long enough to improve it that much has he?

The army camps, fitness training, arriving early for England sticking with an unpredictable bowling unit (rahat, wahab, Imran, sohail) was all decided by waqar in the last two years and will now pay dividends as they all have over 10-15 tests under their belt and looking better and better. Yasir was developed under waqar and it's been his strategy to have a world class spinner operating with the left arm quicks. Despite immense criticism he has stuck with the likes of Azhar and asad as well as building around Younis and Misbah. Sarfaraz has gelled but Hafeez and Shan remain the perennial troublesome opening slots.

Now Mickey looks like a very good coach and he may yet be the best coach we've had and hopefully by winning against England will take us to no1. But we must acknowledge that for two years waqar worked his socks off and was putting together a good team only it seems for credit unfairly going to another coach.

 

[Abid Z]

IN TESTS:

Do we think that Mickey is that much better than Waqar now? During the England series you could say that Waqar and the influence of his coaching team allowed Mickey to slip into the coaching seat and it was a successful tour and he gained some premature plaudits.

Now after test series against west Indies, New Zealand and Australia, its all pretty much Mickey Arthur. We see the same line up and the familiar mistakes.

Is it fair to keep blaming Waqars coaching? Still early to say but i think Mickey has done nothing to improve the team. Im aghast at how much the bowling has regressed. Batting has always been woeful. The fielding not much better..i see us slipping down the rankings.

 

[Slog]

Mickey Arthur is a total disaster

No wonder Australia sacked him unceremoniously

 

[IAJ]

Mickey Arthur is a total disaster

No wonder Australia sacked him unceremoniously

Wow, elaborate please.

 

[Major]

Mickey Arthur is a total disaster

No wonder Australia sacked him unceremoniously

Hmm really?

Whatmore is a bad coach
Mohsin khan is a bad coach
Waqar younis is a bad coach
Now muckey arthur is also a bad coach.

So who does pakostan really need?

Micket arthur is the best thing that has happened to this team.

Guy has rotated our bowlers well, now its upto the players whether to perform or not.

 

[Mamoon]

Mickey Arthur is a total disaster

No wonder Australia sacked him unceremoniously

Yes he is. Let's bring back the Guardiola of Pakistan cricket so that we can be number one again.

 

[Mamoon]

Wow, elaborate please.

No need to elaborate. He is convinced that Waqar 'pep guardiola' Younis was the mastermind behind our ascendency to the number one ranking, which obviously had nothing to do with the fact that we played all of our cricket in 2014-2015 in UAE, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

 

[Major]

No need to elaborate. He is convinced that Waqar 'pep guardiola' Younis was the mastermind behind our ascendency to the number one ranking, which obviously had nothing to do with the fact that we played all of our cricket in 2014-2015 in UAE, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

So you are saying 2 wins in england were a fluke?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Coach's role is massively overrated on PP. You can get mike hesson, john wright or even Woolmer back from the grave but you won't win anywhere outside of UAE consistently. The team just does not have the necessary athletic ability or the skills to compete here.

 

[Mamoon]

So you are saying 2 wins in england were a fluke?

What does the whitewash in NZ on green pitches and the awful performance in this ongoing Test tell you?

It tells me that we got away with it in England because we got flat, dry wickets which suited our cricket more; our batsmen were allowed to do their usual tuk tuk business and Yasir got help as well.

In any case, that is not the point of this discussion - the point is that we drew in England not because of Waqar and we got whitewashed in NZ not because of Mickey.

The result would have been the same in NZ had Waqar been the coach. This is Misbah's team and he is responsible for the success and failure.

Parallels between Waqar and other coaches cannot be drawn because Waqar did not have to take Pakistan on overseas tours because in 2014-15, we played in the UAE, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh only.

 

[Major]

Yasir got no help from the pitch, it was his own class.
So you are also saying that sohail khan is a masterclass bowler as he took a 5ver on a flat wicket?

Rewatch the series, the england test wickets had enough bounce to trouble us. Its the bounce that makes it difficult playing.

The reason we did well in england was due to our peperations

 

[shaz619]

Waqar and Misbah

Like they deserve for 2012 England win

I was really excited to read your post in this thread

 

[Major]

What happened at new zealand was that we were not prepared. We were surprised by what wickeet we got plus we dint take that series serious as we had won in nz last time we went their

 

[shaz619]

What does the whitewash in NZ on green pitches and the awful performance in this ongoing Test tell you?

It tells me that we got away with it in England because we got flat, dry wickets which suited our cricket more; our batsmen were allowed to do their usual tuk tuk business and Yasir got help as well.

In any case, that is not the point of this discussion - the point is that we drew in England not because of Waqar and we got whitewashed in NZ not because of Mickey.

The result would have been the same in NZ had Waqar been the coach. This is Misbah's team and he is responsible for the success and failure.

Parallels between Waqar and other coaches cannot be drawn because Waqar did not have to take Pakistan on overseas tours because in 2014-15, we played in the UAE, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh only.

It tells me that we didn't give a damn about NZ! am pretty sure you've gone out of your way to suggest the same on PP before the tour, the real deal is the tour of AUS and we can both agree on that!

And am also unsure why you've missed this but Pakistan's preparation for NZ and AUS has been god awful in comparison to the effort which was put in preparing for ENG, am sure you can agree on that as well.

 

[Mamoon]

What happened at new zealand was that we were not prepared. We were surprised by what wickeet we got plus we dint take that series serious as we had won in nz last time we went their

They can play 10 warmup matches but will still fail on green pitches. When has any of these batsmen ever scored on green, seaming tracks? Younis and Misbah have never done that in their whole careers and neither have the others.

It is too convenient to blame the lack of practice matches.

 

[Mamoon]

It tells me that we didn't give a damn about NZ! am pretty sure you've gone out of your way to suggest the same on PP before the tour, the real deal is the tour of AUS and we can both agree on that!

And am also unsure why you've missed this but Pakistan's preparation for NZ and AUS has been god awful in comparison to the effort which was put in preparing for ENG, am sure you can agree on that as well.

NZ was inconsequential because of this Australian series. Winning in NZ would have been forgotten quickly had we won in Australia, while the reverse would have been true as well.

However, we did not lose both matches because we did not take it seriously or because we were not prepared. We lost because we cannot bat on green pitches and our bowlers are not disciplined enough and neither can our fielders take catches.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Yes he is. Let's bring back the Guardiola of Pakistan cricket so that we can be number one again.

***After playing almost all of the matches in UAE, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh.

 

[Major]

They can play 10 warmup matches but will still fail on green pitches. When has any of these batsmen ever scored on green, seaming tracks? Younis and Misbah have never done that in their whole careers and neither have the others.

It is too convenient to blame the lack of practice matches.

How often do you even see green wickets?

 

[Mamoon]

I was really excited to read your post in this thread

Waqar also deserves credit for the 1992 win. He was injured and gave pep talks to the team, that was the first time he showed his incredible coaching credentials.

 

[Mamoon]

How often do you even see green wickets?

So they will not struggle if they play on green pitches regularly? OK.

 

[Slog]

No need to elaborate. He is convinced that Waqar 'pep guardiola' Younis was the mastermind behind our ascendency to the number one ranking, which obviously had nothing to do with the fact that we played all of our cricket in 2014-2015 in UAE, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

Yes asides from the fact that we looked poor in all three matches against Windies in UAE

And this Windies side is arguably the weakest test side that has ever toured UAE for a test series against Pakistan

 

[shaz619]

NZ was inconsequential because of this Australian series. Winning in NZ would have been forgotten quickly had we won in Australia, while the reverse would have been true as well.

However, we did not lose both matches because we did not take it seriously or because we were not prepared. We lost because we cannot bat on green pitches and our bowlers are not disciplined enough and neither can our fielders take catches.

I don't agree with that, any team will find it a challenge batting on green mambas or finding your lengths immediately but when you've not prepared well enough you don't give yourself a chance to punch above your weight or to perform at your level best. It's like not revising well for an exam and then blaming it on the fact that you just don't have the ability.

 

[Mamoon]

Yes asides from the fact that we looked poor in all three matches against Windies in UAE

And this Windies side is arguably the weakest test side that has ever toured UAE for a test series against Pakistan

Again, you are ignoring too many variables.

We brought in Nawaz as third spinner because Malik retired after the England series and Hafeez was banned from bowling and not there. Such a situation did not occur during Waqar's reign in the UAE.

Hafeez bowled vs Australia and Malik filled-in for his bowling vs England. What would have Waqar done vs WI without the availability of Hafeez and Malik?

Let's not forget that Hafeez the batsman was fantastic in the UAE during that period - he scored big and quick. Sami might be a better long-term prospect but Hafeez's batting will be missed in the UAE because he could bat at a high tempo.

All these reasons contributed to why we did not look at our best in our last UAE series, but you are happy to ignore everything and put all the blame on Mickey.

 

[Mamoon]

I don't agree with that, any team will find it a challenge batting on green mambas or finding your lengths immediately but when you've not prepared well enough you don't give yourself a chance to punch above your weight or to perform at your level best. It's like not revising well for an exam and then blaming it on the fact that you just don't have the ability.

Yes, but some exams are beyond your level of intellect and no amount of preparation can prepare you for it. This is one such exam for our batsmen. They don't have the required skills to do well on green pitches and these skills cannot be drilled into them at this stage of their careers.

 

[Slog]

Again, you are ignoring too many variables.

We brought in Nawaz as third spinner because Malik retired after the England series and Hafeez was banned from bowling and not there. Such a situation did not occur during Waqar's reign in the UAE.

Hafeez bowled vs Australia and Malik filled-in for his bowling vs England. What would have Waqar done vs WI without the availability of Hafeez and Malik?

Let's not forget that Hafeez the batsman was fantastic in the UAE during that period - he scored big and quick. Sami might be a better long-term prospect but Hafeez's batting will be missed in the UAE because he could bat at a high tempo.

All these reasons contributed to why we did not look at our best in our last UAE series, but you are happy to ignore everything and put all the blame on Mickey.

All coaches face these variables

It's not like Waqar didn't face these.

Firstly for most of his second reign Hafeez could not bowl in tests

Also Ajmal got banned just weeks for the 2014 Uae stretch and that was as big a blow as they can come for a side like ours.

You are being disingenuous here by claiming that malik filled in for Hafeez's bowling against England. Malik retired midway through the series and actually he filled in for the injured Yasir Shah. Then there was azhar missing UAE tests as well

We can talk about such variables and unforceen circumstances all day and Waqar faced his fair share of those and the decisions he took a while conservative generally worked. Coaches are paid to make these calls so excusing Mickey for not making correct calls here doesn't make sense

Look the problem is that the team is playing like a spineless outfit who have given up before they are stepping onto the field. The coach should at the very least try to get hem out of this mental rut

 

[The_Odd_One]

All coaches face these variables

It's not like Waqar didn't face these.

Firstly for most of his second reign Hafeez could not bowl in tests

Also Ajmal got banned just weeks for the 2014 Uae stretch and that was as big a blow as they can come for a side like ours.

You are being disingenuous here by claiming that malik filled in for Hafeez's bowling against England. Malik retired midway through the series and actually he filled in for the injured Yasir Shah. Then there was azhar missing UAE tests as well

We can talk about such variables and unforceen circumstances all day and Waqar faced his fair share of those and the decisions he took a while conservative generally worked. Coaches are paid to make these calls so excusing Mickey for not making correct calls here doesn't make sense

Look the problem is that the team is playing like a spineless outfit who have given up before they are stepping onto the field. The coach should at the very least try to get hem out of this mental rut

Malik did not replace Yasir and he did not retire mid-series. He played all 3 tests. Stop making up things. Malik was Azhar's replacement in the first 2 tests.

 

[Slog]

Malik did not replace Yasir and he did not retire mid-series. He played all 3 tests. Stop making up things. Malik was Azhar's replacement in the first 2 tests.

Malik got the nod because he could bowl spin. Him batting at number 3 was a surprise move of sorts

In the first game zulfiqar Babar and Malik were our spinners.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Malik got the nod because he could bowl spin. Him batting at number 3 was a surprise move of sorts

In the first game zulfiqar Babar and Malik were our spinners.

No matter how you put it, he was not Yasir's replacement. In first test, Pakistan went with 3 pacers + Zulfiqar. Malik was 5th bowler. In the next 2 tests, when Yasir returned, Pakistan dropped one pacer and went with 2 pacer + Yasir + Zulfiqar + Malik.

How was he Yasir's replacement?

 

[Mamoon]

All coaches face these variables

It's not like Waqar didn't face these.

Firstly for most of his second reign Hafeez could not bowl in tests

Also Ajmal got banned just weeks for the 2014 Uae stretch and that was as big a blow as they can come for a side like ours.

You are being disingenuous here by claiming that malik filled in for Hafeez's bowling against England. Malik retired midway through the series and actually he filled in for the injured Yasir Shah. Then there was azhar missing UAE tests as well

We can talk about such variables and unforceen circumstances all day and Waqar faced his fair share of those and the decisions he took a while conservative generally worked. Coaches are paid to make these calls so excusing Mickey for not making correct calls here doesn't make sense

Look the problem is that the team is playing like a spineless outfit who have given up before they are stepping onto the field. The coach should at the very least try to get hem out of this mental rut

Yes all coaches face these variables, which is why it is pointless to scapegoat them without looking at the bigger picture.

I was a vocal critic of Whatmore but now I realize that I was not thinking clearly. He was not the reason why we didn't win a single Test series in his tenure.

Ajmal got banned but that proved to be a blessing in disguise for our Test team. His Test bowling was in steep decline and Yasir replaced him, who has performed better. Hence, Ajmal getting banned was not a blow for the Test side at all.

Malik was selected for the England series because we needed a spin-bowling all-rounder to replace Hafeez's bowling.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1211280

"Following Intikhab Alam's request, I spoke with my fellow selectors and there was unanimity over retaining Malik keeping in mind his current batting form and the off-spin bowling option that could be handy in the all-important forthcoming Test series against England," said Haroon Rashid.

Malik did not replace Yasir. He was going to play anyway as the third spinner and the plan was to go with our usual UAE formula - two pacers, two spinners + a spin-bowling all-rounder. However, Yasir's injury forced us to play a third pacer. When he returned, we went back to our usual UAE formula and dropped a pacer.

Besides, Malik did not retire midway through the series. He announced his retirement after the third day of the third Test. He played all three Tests and batted and bowled in all innings.

I'm not saying that everything was easy for Waqar, but we cannot ignore that the easy schedule in 2014-15 played a massive part in the success that he enjoyed with the Test team. If he was such a brilliant coach and motivator, he would have done something for our woes in Limited Overs but things only got worse during his tenure.

Should we ignore the variables and blame him for the failures in Limited Overs? If we can't praise him for the success in Tests yet at the same time, defend him for the failures in Limited Overs.

 

[Mamoon]

Malik did not replace Yasir and he did not retire mid-series. He played all 3 tests. Stop making up things. Malik was Azhar's replacement in the first 2 tests.

Malik got the nod because he could bowl spin. Him batting at number 3 was a surprise move of sorts

In the first game zulfiqar Babar and Malik were our spinners.

No matter how you put it, he was not Yasir's replacement. In first test, Pakistan went with 3 pacers + Zulfiqar. Malik was 5th bowler. In the next 2 tests, when Yasir returned, Pakistan dropped one pacer and went with 2 pacer + Yasir + Zulfiqar + Malik.

How was he Yasir's replacement?

Malik was going to play anyway. Had Azhar not missed the first two Tests, he would have opened alongside Hafeez like he did in the third Test. Masood would not have played.

Our plans were derailed when Yasir got injured as well, due to which we had to play 3 pacers at Abu Dhabi and not go with the 2+2+1 formula.

 

[Abid Z]

This thread wasn't about misbah. The captain remains the same. Let's just explore some of the reasons why we ridiculed and discounted waqars input that arguably led to some improvements in the team and compare it to subsequent coaches. Is mickey Arthur really that much better? 12 years ago we had arguably the best coach in the world and a better lineup though it was far from settled, but got hammered in Australia in the most abject manner. But it was against the best line up in the world. Now, there seems to be no improvement under mickey and he's been around for 6 months. It's time to start wondering what he brings to the table.

Let's not think this is limited to the swing in NZ and the bounce in Brisbane. Whatever ails the team it seems mickey hasn't found the answers. Does this make him a poor coach?

 

[Dr_Bassim]

All coaches face these variables

It's not like Waqar didn't face these.

Firstly for most of his second reign Hafeez could not bowl in tests

Also Ajmal got banned just weeks for the 2014 Uae stretch and that was as big a blow as they can come for a side like ours.

You are being disingenuous here by claiming that malik filled in for Hafeez's bowling against England. Malik retired midway through the series and actually he filled in for the injured Yasir Shah. Then there was azhar missing UAE tests as well

We can talk about such variables and unforceen circumstances all day and Waqar faced his fair share of those and the decisions he took a while conservative generally worked. Coaches are paid to make these calls so excusing Mickey for not making correct calls here doesn't make sense

Look the problem is that the team is playing like a spineless outfit who have given up before they are stepping onto the field. The coach should at the very least try to get hem out of this mental rut

Bhai, even Waqar himself wouldn't take credit as much as you give him.

I can bet my house that if Waqar (insert your favorite personality here) was coaching us in NZ, we would still have lost 2-0 and be 97-8 today.

Waqar was an okay coach.

Nor amazing nor bad, but touring BD, SL etc is not really highly the benchmark for a coaching credential.

 

[Mamoon]

This thread wasn't about misbah. The captain remains the same. Let's just explore some of the reasons why we ridiculed and discounted waqars input that arguably led to some improvements in the team and compare it to subsequent coaches. Is mickey Arthur really that much better? 12 years ago we had arguably the best coach in the world and a better lineup though it was far from settled, but got hammered in Australia in the most abject manner. But it was against the best line up in the world. Now, there seems to be no improvement under mickey and he's been around for 6 months. It's time to start wondering what he brings to the table.

Let's not think this is limited to the swing in NZ and the bounce in Brisbane. Whatever ails the team it seems mickey hasn't found the answers. Does this make him a poor coach?

It is time for us to realize that the role of coaches is massively overrated in cricket, a sport that is heavily dependent on the conditions and the captain has more influence than the coach.

Coaches in cricket are not equivalent to managers in football. In fact, captains in football = coaches in cricket, while coaches in football = captains in cricket.

It is the captain who takes the on-field decisions and has the bigger say over the mentality of the team. Buchanan has won more than any coach in cricket history but that does not make him a world class coach.

He coached in the IPL after his extremely successful stint with Australia and failed miserably.

Mickey Arthur would also have won 3 World Cups if he was the coach of Australia at that time. Even Waqar would have.

 

[shaz619]

Yes, but some exams are beyond your level of intellect and no amount of preparation can prepare you for it. This is one such exam for our batsmen. They don't have the required skills to do well on green pitches and these skills cannot be drilled into them at this stage of their careers.

That's just an excuse, if you fail to prepare you're preparing to fail

 

[Mamoon]

That's just an excuse, if you fail to prepare you're preparing to fail

You should never fail to prepare but at times you will still fail because some things are not in your powers.

Should we have prepared better for NZ? Of course

Did we lose because were not prepared for the green pitches? No, I don't agree

 

[JaDed]

Lets wait for the tour to end,Arthur's tenure tbf has started similar to Duncan Fletcher's terrible overseas tour ,but imho few of the players developed under him so even if Arthur is able to provide path and show improvement in Babar,Asad,Azhar,Amir it would be good for Pakistan in future irrespective of this tour.But the players need to be up for the challenge as well.

 

[Hasan123]

All coaches face these variables

It's not like Waqar didn't face these.

Firstly for most of his second reign Hafeez could not bowl in tests

Also Ajmal got banned just weeks for the 2014 Uae stretch and that was as big a blow as they can come for a side like ours.

You are being disingenuous here by claiming that malik filled in for Hafeez's bowling against England. Malik retired midway through the series and actually he filled in for the injured Yasir Shah. Then there was azhar missing UAE tests as well

We can talk about such variables and unforceen circumstances all day and Waqar faced his fair share of those and the decisions he took a while conservative generally worked. Coaches are paid to make these calls so excusing Mickey for not making correct calls here doesn't make sense

Look the problem is that the team is playing like a spineless outfit who have given up before they are stepping onto the field. The coach should at the very least try to get hem out of this mental rut

If Waqar was coach now Babar wouldn't be playing I am certain of this. Also Hafeez would still be playing in all 3 formats. So the results wouldn't be that different if Waqar was coach. Arthur is a much more professional and qualified coach than Waqar so any day I'll stick with Arthur over Waqar

 

[Slog]

If Waqar was coach now Babar wouldn't be playing I am certain of this. Also Hafeez would still be playing in all 3 formats. So the results wouldn't be that different if Waqar was coach. Arthur is a much more professional and qualified coach than Waqar so any day I'll stick with Arthur over Waqar

Too bad we'll lose four consecutive tests under him and have even lost the aura of invincibility we had built in UAE tests

 

[Abid Z]

It is time for us to realize that the role of coaches is massively overrated in cricket, a sport that is heavily dependent on the conditions and the captain has more influence than the coach.

Coaches in cricket are not equivalent to managers in football. In fact, captains in football = coaches in cricket, while coaches in football = captains in cricket.

It is the captain who takes the on-field decisions and has the bigger say over the mentality of the team. Buchanan has won more than any coach in cricket history but that does not make him a world class coach.

He coached in the IPL after his extremely successful stint with Australia and failed miserably.

Mickey Arthur would also have won 3 World Cups if he was the coach of Australia at that time. Even Waqar would have.

Yes yes. We all know that point. But let's move on from it and keep captaincy input line ups aside.

Whether we agree or not a coach is paid an enormous amount to help improve the team. One coach gets sacked or leaves because of results and another is brought in. But the one brought in piggy backs on the success of the previous coach and is all proud and glowing in front of the media. This happened in 2012 with waqar and mohsin and again in 2016 with waqar and mickey.

The question at what point do we say one coaches influence ended and another ones has begun. Let's say it's six months... mickey has had six months and I see nothing different just regression. One of waqars recommendations was a new selection panel. Mickey got that. One of waqars recommendations was fitness camp and early arrival in Uk. Mickey got that. So we drew a series in Uk.

But windies in UAE, nz and OZ are all mickey and inzy and we are as abject as ever. So are we prepared to say that success in England was down to waqar and left to his own devices mickey seems out of his depth? His strategies or the execution is awful, the selection of three left armers is awful. There is no off spinner to target left handers. There aren't sufficient practice matches. Etc etc.

For those that say coaches don't matter the team and captain is everything can only be referring to warnes quote on buchanan. Or even Imran around 1992.

In the modern era, look at the difference Duncan fletcher made to England in 2001-2005. Look at the difference between Peter moores and Andy flower. Even consider Gary Kirsten or Ravi shastri and fletcher in India. Just look at the difference Lehman made to Australia after mickey.

The key thing in lineup a good coach does is he identifies talent and the brand of cricketers that will deliver that brand. Fletcher identified trescothick, Vaughn, flintoff early on and kept up introducing talent right to his end. Bell, cook, Strauss, pieterson were all brought in.

Waqar identified plodathons as his mark and it worked coz he built that lineup. Azhar, asad younis and misbah delivered this.

Where does mickey wanna go? What's his brand???

 

[Hasan123]

Too bad we'll lose four consecutive tests under him and have even lost the aura of invincibility we had built in UAE tests

Lol under Waqar we wasn't exactly invincible in the UAE as SA, NZ, and England all challenged us once they got use to the conditions.

Mickey has only had one series in UAE so we can't judge him off that. Once Misbah retires mickey will build his own team than he shall be judged, current team other than Babar at 3 seems to be Misbah eleven.