India’s government cuts Muslim rulers from Indian history books

[Zaz]

This one definitely stands out

How did they do that? By having 10+ wives each and taking a 1000 other concubines?

Maybe read up on some actual history rather than spouting nonsense

"Women found themselves employed as secretaries, report writers, guards, archers, international traders, financiers and merchants, bodyguards and even accountants and clerks. Some even wrote poetry and were good letter writers.

A few women wrote commentaries and treatises on different subjects and made contributions to the arts and learning.

The princesses had their own allowances, palaces and the right to make their own appointments to who would protect them and sign the ruler’s decrees. A few princesses are known to have had their own libraries. The women also served in the battlefield. Many women served as patrons, peace brokers, negotiators and even as intermediaries between warring factions. A few women even became ascetics.

Some women could be landowners, overseers of building and irrigation projects, organizers of festivals and bazaars, celebrations and other major events and owners of vast shares in their own names. Certain women received pensions, stipends from shares and other business transactions. Women from different religions could serve as political advisors, preachers and even speakers.

Some Muslim and Non Muslim women served as both actual rulers and queens and those who ruled in everything but name.

Among the arts, women served as musicians (such as flute and tambourine players), painters, weavers, dancers and as astrologers and as designers women produced handicrafts which they would sell at the bazaars and were involved in calligraphy. For entertainment, women enjoyed board games such as backgammon, card games, chess and chaupasi. Outdoor pursuits included polo, hunting expeditions and excursions.

Schools for girls was first established by Akbar in Fatehpur, Sikri and continued from there. Women received learning in Persian, classical poetry, domestic science and theology"

 

[Champ_Pal]

The irony You have a bigoted tyrannical ruler and party in power lol

Mughals were true sons of the soil Not these rabid hindutva fascists who are hell bent on spreading communal hatred and marginalising 200m of their citizens

You hate mongers can take them out of your textbooks but you cant change or dilute history

The mughals reign will always be known as the golden age Kar lo jo karna hai

They never accepted local culture, never adopted it and worse they lived in their own self created Rich bubbles. They never even learned any local language and spoke Persian and Arabic even after living in the lands for hundreds of years. And you call them sons of the soil.

So anyone who does not accept the pathetic rule of Mughals is a fascist now. Hats off to your insight.

 

[JaDed]

Man why can’t history just be history .. learn and move on.. Dinosaurs ruled the Earth once .. maybe we invaded their land lol(jk)

I don’t understand Pakistan’s fascination with Mughals as well.. just teach history as it is.. and then from 1947 onwards actual History that matters for our countries.

 

[Zaz]

So anyone who does not accept the pathetic rule of Mughals is a fascist now. Hats off to your insight.

Its funny on how in 60 years of indias existence and during dozens of prime ministers reign this was never an issue but now with the butcher of gujurat and and his goons it suddenly is

The mughals married local women, their mums were locals, They didnt go back to uzbekistan or take any riches back All the mughals bar the founder ruled lived and died in the subcontinent Thats sons of the soil

No Anyone who creats communal hatred and discriminates against 20% of its population based on their religion is a fascist

 

[PakLFC]

Lets not forget Islam's garden culture. If India is a mess today just imagine it having no gardens for people to enjoy.

 

[Zaz]

I don’t understand Pakistan’s fascination with Mughals as well.. just teach history as it is.. and then from 1947 onwards actual History that matters for our countries.

Its modi and his party who are fascinated that they just cant stomach any glory or praise attached to muslim rulers

This forced glorification of hindu rulers and demeaning muslim rulers is just pathetic from someone whos supposed to have better things to do like provide jobs toilets food and roof to over half its population which is on the breadline

Like u said just let it be Get your priorities right

 

[Local.Dada]

Maybe read up on some actual history rather than spouting nonsense

"Women found themselves employed as secretaries, report writers, guards, archers, international traders, financiers and merchants, bodyguards and even accountants and clerks. Some even wrote poetry and were good letter writers.

A few women wrote commentaries and treatises on different subjects and made contributions to the arts and learning.

The princesses had their own allowances, palaces and the right to make their own appointments to who would protect them and sign the ruler’s decrees. A few princesses are known to have had their own libraries. The women also served in the battlefield. Many women served as patrons, peace brokers, negotiators and even as intermediaries between warring factions. A few women even became ascetics.

Some women could be landowners, overseers of building and irrigation projects, organizers of festivals and bazaars, celebrations and other major events and owners of vast shares in their own names. Certain women received pensions, stipends from shares and other business transactions. Women from different religions could serve as political advisors, preachers and even speakers.

Some Muslim and Non Muslim women served as both actual rulers and queens and those who ruled in everything but name.

Among the arts, women served as musicians (such as flute and tambourine players), painters, weavers, dancers and as astrologers and as designers women produced handicrafts which they would sell at the bazaars and were involved in calligraphy. For entertainment, women enjoyed board games such as backgammon, card games, chess and chaupasi. Outdoor pursuits included polo, hunting expeditions and excursions.

Schools for girls was first established by Akbar in Fatehpur, Sikri and continued from there. Women received learning in Persian, classical poetry, domestic science and theology"

You realize that the tradition of women working, doing jobs and some famous women existed in Indian subcontinent history way way way before the Mughal rule right?

However on the flip side there are documented stories in the official historical books of the Mughals themselves about some things their soldiers might have done during a conquest. You can read up on them yourself.

Anyways I don’t deny that there were a couple of good administrators in there for example Akbar.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Too much fake news in this. Kashmir has got so muddled and I haven't paid much attention to it, so until I research this further I won't talk on it.

But this UNSC thing is just so wrong and repeating it multiple times won't make it the truth. Taiwan held the seat which China took over. Even if any feelers were made to test Nehru out, he might have been cold to it based on the concept of a principle - something the current government severely lacks.

This is what he said in Parliament:


https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ed-and-india-declining-it/article61573078.ece

Regarding China using veto:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vetoed_United_Nations_Security_Council_resolutions

Not pursuing the UNSC seat was Nehru’s mistake

More than five decades after his death, India’s first Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, continues to regularly feature in the national political discourse. One of the recent instances was when finance minister, Arun Jaitley, found a reason to blame Nehru in the backdrop of China blocking the move to get Pakistan-based terrorist, Masood Azhar, sanctioned by the United Nations (UN). Jaitley cited a letter (dated August 2, 1955) written by Nehru to chief ministers, in which he talks about informal suggestions that were made to India to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council (UNSC). Nehru made it clear that though India deserved a permanent seat in the UNSC, it won’t grab it at the expense of China, which was also a candidate for the same seat. As a great country, Nehru argued, China should first find its rightful place in the UNSC and India’s case could be considered separately.


For what it is worth, Anton Harder, a scholar who has studied the subject, claims that the US offer should “be regarded as quite sincere”. Historians then go on to describe the circumstances to justify and explain Nehru’s call. Let us look into their arguments.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/anal...u-s-mistake/story-VhXC2ltVtmrtC7v3Q15aaO.html


To say everything in which makes Nehru look bad is Whatsapp university ranting is a typical Congress supporter's reasoning. Nehru has done the damage, and India is still suffering, they will now never get into UNSC as China will Veto against it, China will veto to protect Pakistani terrorists and who knows for whatever future Pakistani interests.

 

[Romali_rotti]

mughals? no Babar invaded..just like others from the greeks before and eve before them the central asians..every child born after Babar was an Indian. Thats the difference between the brits and the mughals..the mughals changed the land they came to by uplifting its culture and creating something so new and powerful that unwashed barbarians from the west would hear stories of its glories..they melded cultures to create a new culture that we still see today in many ways..

what we have now in India is a regressive, narrow minded culture that has nothing to offer the wider world..if you cut off a leg dont cry and when you realise you cant walk properly..

Brother,

Boys like Taimur and Babar slaughtered people in hordes and hordes, they should never be glorified even if you are a muslim. Those Mughal's and the Brits are pretty much the same, both did not come peacefully and both had their own self interests..

 

[pillionrider]

Not pursuing the UNSC seat was Nehru’s mistake

More than five decades after his death, India’s first Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, continues to regularly feature in the national political discourse. One of the recent instances was when finance minister, Arun Jaitley, found a reason to blame Nehru in the backdrop of China blocking the move to get Pakistan-based terrorist, Masood Azhar, sanctioned by the United Nations (UN). Jaitley cited a letter (dated August 2, 1955) written by Nehru to chief ministers, in which he talks about informal suggestions that were made to India to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council (UNSC). Nehru made it clear that though India deserved a permanent seat in the UNSC, it won’t grab it at the expense of China, which was also a candidate for the same seat. As a great country, Nehru argued, China should first find its rightful place in the UNSC and India’s case could be considered separately.


For what it is worth, Anton Harder, a scholar who has studied the subject, claims that the US offer should “be regarded as quite sincere”. Historians then go on to describe the circumstances to justify and explain Nehru’s call. Let us look into their arguments.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/anal...u-s-mistake/story-VhXC2ltVtmrtC7v3Q15aaO.html


To say everything in which makes Nehru look bad is Whatsapp university ranting is a typical Congress supporter's reasoning. Nehru has done the damage, and India is still suffering, they will now never get into UNSC as China will Veto against it, China will veto to protect Pakistani terrorists and who knows for whatever future Pakistani interests.

Nehru felt by principle Taiwan's seat should go to China.

His reply to a question in Parliament suggested there was no serious chance of India getting a seat of their own without complicated changes happening, which he didn't reckon were likely.

China has yet to use its veto against India.

 

[pillionrider]

Getting back on topic, some of the anti-Mughals here should understand what their beloved Hindu kings did to Buddhists and how they expanded Hinduism.

The Golden Age of Hinduism could easily be the Tyrannical Rule of the Guptas if the descendants of those who were 'absorbed' into Hinduism had a voice today. But they don't, because they're Hindus now and aren't even aware of the history of the expansion of Hinduism as a relgiion.

As far as the contribution of the Mughals is concerned. They contributed as much to today's India as any other famous Hindu empire. All kings were selfish and often brutal when it came to expanding their empires. No one did anything for the glory of India or Bharat or Hindustan or whatever you want to call it lol

 

[Romali_rotti]

China has yet to use its veto against India.

China Blocks US, India Move To List Pakistani Terrorist In United Nations
Abdul Rehman Makki is a US-designated terrorist and the brother-in-law of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) chief and 26/11 mastermind Hafiz Saeed.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/chi...st-in-united-nations-security-council-3074811


India meets all qualifications to be NSG member, China’s veto stopping it: US

https://theprint.in/defence/india-m...nsg-member-chinas-veto-stopping-it-us/117204/

 

[jeetu]

I disagree. The hatred of non Hindu's particularly Muslim's has gone too far now. RSS will make sure India is split in to many parts. They ain't going anywhere at all.

It may have been among certain section but i don't see it as widespread. RSS is not that strong. It seems that way to outside world because they make lots of noises and media covers it. They are on a state backed power trip. The biggest problem in India right now is the there is no logical alternative to BJP. Congress under Rahul Gandhi has declined alot. Third front is non existent as most regional parties can't get along with each other.

 

[jeetu]

Yes Ashoka should be glorified after literally massacring insane amount of Indians.

Hindutvadis are becoming like Pakistanis were only who they want to glorify will be glorified based on their agenda.

Ashoka is glorified for things he did after Kalinga War. To my knowledge no one as yet had tried to whitewash the destruction he did.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yes Ashoka should be glorified after literally massacring insane amount of Indians.

Hindutvadis are becoming like Pakistanis were only who they want to glorify will be glorified based on their agenda.

Isn't Ashoka criticized for his violent wars and called Chanda Ashok? He is praised after he renounced violence and war.

What is the agenda? Praising natives is an agenda? Should Mauryans Satvahanas Guptas Cholas Vijaynagar Chalukyas Rashtrakutas Palas etc be glorified over invaders from central asia?

Who glorified invaders? Have you seen arab invaders being glorified by Spain? Have the African countries started glorifying the white colonial rulers?

I am sorry to say, but in India invaders are being glorified in the name of secularism and liberalism. And you unfortunately my brother have fallen for that.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The irony You have a bigoted tyrannical ruler and party in power lol

Mughals were true sons of the soil Not these rabid hindutva fascists who are hell bent on spreading communal hatred and marginalising 200m of their citizens

You hate mongers can take them out of your textbooks but you cant change or dilute history

The mughals reign will always be known as the golden age Kar lo jo karna hai

1. You can have your opinion on who is in power in India. Problem is you don't get to vote and decide who rules India.

2. You can glorify Mughals or whoever you want in pakistan. I don't care.

3. You can keep calling invaders as golden age. We dont care.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Nehru felt by principle Taiwan's seat should go to China.

His reply to a question in Parliament suggested there was no serious chance of India getting a seat of their own without complicated changes happening, which he didn't reckon were likely.

China has yet to use its veto against India.

The seat offered to Taiwan was to be India's.

China has used its veto numerous times to save pakistani terrorists from being sanctioned by UN.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Ashoka is glorified for things he did after Kalinga War. To my knowledge no one as yet had tried to whitewash the destruction he did.

He is called Chanda Ashok for his violence.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Getting back on topic, some of the anti-Mughals here should understand what their beloved Hindu kings did to Buddhists and how they expanded Hinduism.

The Golden Age of Hinduism could easily be the Tyrannical Rule of the Guptas if the descendants of those who were 'absorbed' into Hinduism had a voice today. But they don't, because they're Hindus now and aren't even aware of the history of the expansion of Hinduism as a relgiion.

As far as the contribution of the Mughals is concerned. They contributed as much to today's India as any other famous Hindu empire. All kings were selfish and often brutal when it came to expanding their empires. No one did anything for the glory of India or Bharat or Hindustan or whatever you want to call it lol

What rubbish is this? Hinduism existed before Buddhism. You are trying to make it look like Buddhism existed before hindus came and overtook the region.

Is this the new drama?

Lord Buddha is glorified as one of the greatest human beings to walk this land. Ashoka's conversion to Buddhism and his efforts to soread buddhism is glorified.

 

[Dead Ball]

1. You can have your opinion on who is in power in India. Problem is you don't get to vote and decide who rules India.

2. You can glorify Mughals or whoever you want in pakistan. I don't care.

3. You can keep calling invaders as golden age. We dont care.

Hindus are probably the only community on earth that have been taught not only to tolerate, but glorify genocidal maniacs who raped and murdered their ancestors, in the name of secularism, liberalism etc.

The entire blame for this falls on the hindus themselves in my opinion. India, being the sole hindu majority nation on earth, entrusted the history department to communists and islamists for the first few decades after independence. Nehru and co. wanted to dismantle hinduism bit by bit.

At least now, there seems to be some kind of a general awakening within the hindu community.

 

[jeetu]

He is called Chanda Ashok for his violence.

I know about Chand Ashoka. He is still revered for the work he did after renouncing violence. There is evidence of the good he did after Kalinga War. Indian history books called him Ashoka the great and i agree to it.

 

[jeetu]

What rubbish is this? Hinduism existed before Buddhism. You are trying to make it look like Buddhism existed before hindus came and overtook the region.

Is this the new drama?

Lord Buddha is glorified as one of the greatest human beings to walk this land. Ashoka's conversion to Buddhism and his efforts to soread buddhism is glorified.

Vedas were composed long before Gautam Buddha was born. Most estimates puts it more than 1000 years before Budha was born. Gayatri Mantra is is still among the most revered hymn among Hindus and it is from Rig Veda. Even many non hindus have heard a version of it as Battlestar Galactica opening theme.

 

[Local.Dada]

I know about Chand Ashoka. He is still revered for the work he did after renouncing violence. There is evidence of the good he did after Kalinga War. Indian history books called him Ashoka the great and i agree to it.

Ashoka’s story arc is in our history is basically about his redemption from a power hungry tyrant to a Buddhist.

Also him converting to Buddhism is not the same as him taking the life of a Buddhist monk/ascetic after the Kalinga war. There are stories of his atrocities against Jain monks. Remember Jains being another important political force of that time along with Hindus and Buddhists.

He is not known as a great administrator or the prosperity of his kingdom was spoken like Krishna Deva Raya or Chandra Gupta Maurya.


Just like Islam and Christianity much later Buddhism, Jainism were also important political tools for the kings of that time.

Having said that he is a important figure in our history but his story may be a little exaggerated kind of like the Taj Mahal love story.

 

[Rajdeep]

I really dont understand the necessity of posting or even writing these articles. If Pakistan had no problem being an Islamic Republic & infact underplay their Hindu past, why criticize India if they are choosing to now fully embrace their Hindu rulers while choosing to ignore the Moghul invaders? After all the key difference here is the Moghuls were invaders & in some ways oppressers of their land & it should be the local’s choice whether to accept them, glorify them or not reject them. I mean thinking about it - our history is all about how the horrible British policies led to the Colonial wars- we dont glorify the Brits!

That is the hypocrisy bit unfortunately.

We want Pakistan to be Islamic republic but India have to remain secular.

We would erase our hindu past but Indians have to remember Mughal invaders.

I heard someone said, India was fine accepting all these for 60 years...what changed? Well, this hypocritical arrangement had ran its course and it had to end someday. It cant go on forever and its coming to an end now for greater good.

People are more aware now...you cant have the cake and cherry too.

 

[Zaz]

That is the hypocrisy bit unfortunately.

We want Pakistan to be Islamic republic but India have to remain secular.

We would erase our hindu past but Indians have to remember Mughal invaders.

I heard someone said, India was fine accepting all these for 60 years...what changed? Well, this hypocritical arrangement had ran its course and it had to end someday. It cant go on forever and its coming to an end now for greater good.

People are more aware now...you cant have the cake and cherry too.

Indian can become a hindu rastra or republic thats not a problem or anyones elses concern

The issue isnt that but the marginalisation and discrimination of its muslim population and heritage

Thats a worldwide concern and pakistan or any other people have a total right to condemn any violence or discrimination against them particularly when its govt led and backed

 

[jeetu]

Ashoka’s story arc is in our history is basically about his redemption from a power hungry tyrant to a Buddhist.

Also him converting to Buddhism is not the same as him taking the life of a Buddhist monk/ascetic after the Kalinga war. There are stories of his atrocities against Jain monks. Remember Jains being another important political force of that time along with Hindus and Buddhists.

He is not known as a great administrator or the prosperity of his kingdom was spoken like Krishna Deva Raya or Chandra Gupta Maurya.


Just like Islam and Christianity much later Buddhism, Jainism were also important political tools for the kings of that time.

Having said that he is a important figure in our history but his story may be a little exaggerated kind of like the Taj Mahal love story.

Ashokavadana has stories of Ashoka's atrocities after turning to Buddhism. However scholars are divided on whether that part is true or not.
Taj Mahal love story looks decently accurate. The real exaggeration is Anarkali story shown in Mughal-E-Azam.

 

[Rajdeep]

Indian can become a hindu rastra or republic thats not a problem or anyones elses concern

The issue isnt that but the marginalisation and discrimination of its muslim population and heritage

Thats a worldwide concern and pakistan or any other people have a total right to condemn any violence or discrimination against them particularly when its govt led and backed

Indian muslims are flourishing and not marginalized at all. In every sect and aspect of India there is muslim representation. Heck we have parties in parliament exclusive for muslims. There are muslim leaders in the same Modi govt that you are accusing. How many minorities in Pakistan get to lead in public life? How many hindu cricketers in Pakistan team? What happened to that Srilankan guy?

There is no worldwide concern it seems. Lol. You are watching/reading too much agenda driven news. In India, all minorities are flourishing...no concern at all.

#SabChangaSi

 

[cricketjoshila]

Ashoka’s story arc is in our history is basically about his redemption from a power hungry tyrant to a Buddhist.

Also him converting to Buddhism is not the same as him taking the life of a Buddhist monk/ascetic after the Kalinga war. There are stories of his atrocities against Jain monks. Remember Jains being another important political force of that time along with Hindus and Buddhists.

He is not known as a great administrator or the prosperity of his kingdom was spoken like Krishna Deva Raya or Chandra Gupta Maurya.


Just like Islam and Christianity much later Buddhism, Jainism were also important political tools for the kings of that time.

Having said that he is a important figure in our history but his story may be a little exaggerated kind of like the Taj Mahal love story.

Actually Ashoka's administration is spoken about. Though much of it was designed by Chanakya, Ashoka ran it very efficiently.

His work for the distribution of food to all the poor and hungry is another thing that's glorified.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Ashokavadana has stories of Ashoka's atrocities after turning to Buddhism. However scholars are divided on whether that part is true or not.
Taj Mahal love story looks decently accurate. The real exaggeration is Anarkali story shown in Mughal-E-Azam.

Ashokvandana is a myth.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indian can become a hindu rastra or republic thats not a problem or anyones elses concern

The issue isnt that but the marginalisation and discrimination of its muslim population and heritage

Thats a worldwide concern and pakistan or any other people have a total right to condemn any violence or discrimination against them particularly when its govt led and backed

Pakistan first should look at its treatment of minorities before condemning anyone.

What marginalisation? Can you name one law in India that marginalizes muslims?

Muslim heritage doesn't mean non muslims have to accept the glorification of bigoted tyrannical genocidal invaders.

As you see, during BLM movement white colonial heroes are having their names erased, statues pulled down, glorification condemned. Same with the invaders in India.

 

[jeetu]

Ashokvandana is a myth.

I don't think Ashokvandana is a myth as there are Chinese translation of it as far back as 300AD. (as per wikipedia). The problem is its accuracy.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Man why can’t history just be history .. learn and move on.. Dinosaurs ruled the Earth once .. maybe we invaded their land lol(jk)

I don’t understand Pakistan’s fascination with Mughals as well.. just teach history as it is.. and then from 1947 onwards actual History that matters for our countries.

Pakistan's whole purpose is to justify the creation of a separate state for Muslims, and one of the reasons they needed this was to preserve their historical legacy which is now being slowly wiped out by Hindutva. Unfortunately this means they have in the past overcompensated and failed to teach pre-Islamic history in their schools, which is not doing their people any service - although to be fair the country is not even a century old yet, they have spent most of their energy trying to maintain their status as an independent nation.

History should indeed be just history, and looked on dispassionately. That is why Brits, for all their faults at least have provided some service to the subcontinent by preserving records of Mughal era. Neither Pakistan nor India are responsible enough to do it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pakistan first should look at its treatment of minorities before condemning anyone.

What marginalisation? Can you name one law in India that marginalizes muslims?

Muslim heritage doesn't mean non muslims have to accept the glorification of bigoted tyrannical genocidal invaders.

As you see, during BLM movement white colonial heroes are having their names erased, statues pulled down, glorification condemned. Same with the invaders in India.

Pakistan didn't write this article, it was published in Britain's most respected newspaper, and posted on the same day. OP didn't go looking for a chance to bash India as has been suggested by some sidespin posters. This is just getting defensive instead of discussing the topic at hand.

 

[Rajdeep]

Pakistan didn't write this article, it was published in Britain's most respected newspaper, and posted on the same day. OP didn't go looking for a chance to bash India as has been suggested by some sidespin posters. This is just getting defensive instead of discussing the topic at hand.

Correct but his response was also not to the article in the OP but another fellow poster who said muslims in India are being marginalized and how Pakistanis are concerned. Its bit ironic considering the minority rights in Pakistan are much worst than in India. In a discussion forum, arguements are made and then there are rebuttals. That is how it works...no one is getting defensive.

And if you strictly want an answer on the article in OP written by someone for Times.UK sitting in New Delhi, I think its a good step by Indian govt. No point teaching young Indian kids about its tyrant past. India has plenty of glorious proud history like Cholas, Maharana Prataps's, Lodhi Dynasty, Mauryas etc which can be part of curriculum.

 

[jeetu]

Pakistan didn't write this article, it was published in Britain's most respected newspaper, and posted on the same day. OP didn't go looking for a chance to bash India as has been suggested by some sidespin posters. This is just getting defensive instead of discussing the topic at hand.

Someone has to be really gullible if they believe the bolded part. Many of the PPers posting here has been around for over 10 years.
Returning to topic at hand , i think topic has been already answered by posters from both sides of the border. Now is just the extended discussion going on. Like most typical bashing thread you will get contrasting reply.

 

[dildilpak]

Pakistan's whole purpose is to justify the creation of a separate state for Muslims, and one of the reasons they needed this was to preserve their historical legacy which is now being slowly wiped out by Hindutva. Unfortunately this means they have in the past overcompensated and failed to teach pre-Islamic history in their schools, which is not doing their people any service - although to be fair the country is not even a century old yet, they have spent most of their energy trying to maintain their status as an independent nation.

History should indeed be just history, and looked on dispassionately. That is why Brits, for all their faults at least have provided some service to the subcontinent by preserving records of Mughal era. Neither Pakistan nor India are responsible enough to do it.

If you want to talk about history, question arises whether the Brits correctly accounted for the deaths during the colonial era. Do they acknowledge atrocities they did or the way they looted the riches in that era? Keeping in mind that acknowledging would also mean reparations in some cases, do the Brits have it in them to accept what they did?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Someone has to be really gullible if they believe the bolded part. Many of the PPers posting here has been around for over 10 years.
Returning to topic at hand , i think topic has been already answered by posters from both sides of the border. Now is just the extended discussion going on. Like most typical bashing thread you will get contrasting reply.

If we are going to go down the route of bashing posters rather than discuss the message, then I think most threads will just end up slanging matches. I have no problem with that by the way, but the mods will be forced to intervene incessantly.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you want to talk about history, question arises whether the Brits correctly accounted for the deaths during the colonial era. Do they acknowledge atrocities they did or the way they looted the riches in that era? Keeping in mind that acknowledging would also mean reparations in some cases, do the Brits have it in them to accept what they did?

That's true enough. Despite mostly having an objective view with regards to other's history, obviously they will have their own bias when it comes their own. But that is why we have separate threads to discuss British history, I am sure there have been a few on legacy of the British Empire where starvation of Bengal was heatedly discussed.

I think separation of threads is a good idea otherwise all you will get is Whataboutism which we have seen posters continually resort to in this one.

 

[Major]

I wonder if there will there be any change to that in the future.

I find it ironic that as you say Gandhi and Nehru are heavily criticized in Pakistan but the moment some incident happens in India under BJP or when article 370 got revoked, I have heard a lot of significant Pakistan leadership say, India/Modi have let down the great tenets of Gandhi/Nehru etc and complain that India is not following its secular culture.

I kind of find it hypocritical.

Obviously this isn’t a thread with a lot of articulate and intellectual points and is just opened probably on a lazy rainy English afternoon to get some raise out of people and there may not be many learnings expected.

However I always found that interesting.

Thats our hypocrisy.....

When it comes pre partion history, securalism is viewed as evil and nehru is represented as the leader of evil.

Nowadays the pakistanis that talk about modi letting down secularism only say it to score points. They dont believe in the former being right nor latter.......

Also, pakistani view and british pakistani view are seperate .

Pakistanis dont know the concept of securalism and they think partition happened on the basis of hindu muslim.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Thats our hypocrisy.....

When it comes pre partion history, securalism is viewed as evil and nehru is represented as the leader of evil.

Nowadays the pakistanis that talk about modi letting down secularism only say it to score points. They dont believe in the former being right nor latter.......

Also, pakistani view and british pakistani view are seperate .

Pakistanis dont know the concept of securalism and they think partition happened on the basis of hindu muslim.

You can open a separate thread about Pakistan if you feel it hasn't already been discussed already. It's not against the rules. You can open yet another one about British Pakistanis as well if you so wish.

 

[pillionrider]

The seat offered to Taiwan was to be India's.

China has used its veto numerous times to save pakistani terrorists from being sanctioned by UN.

There was no 'offered to Taiwan'. Taiwan's earlier version ROC was a founding member. So it was just a question of who was going to be considered the legitimate holder of the seat - ROC (later Taiwan) or the PRC which later assumed it and continues to do so.

You can check the actual veto votes. There's nothing related to India. As yet.

 

[dildilpak]

That's true enough. Despite mostly having an objective view with regards to other's history, obviously they will have their own bias when it comes their own. But that is why we have separate threads to discuss British history, I am sure there have been a few on legacy of the British Empire where starvation of Bengal was heatedly discussed.

I think separation of threads is a good idea otherwise all you will get is Whataboutism which we have seen posters continually resort to in this one.

The point is that no country can have objective view about history- one person’s benefactor is another’s tyrant. The fact is that these ‘most reputed’ news organisations conveniently try to see ahead while forgetting their own country’s checkered past. And lets not forget Hindus have a right to feel differently about the Mughals than the rest of the world - they were the ones who were invaded, their rights to pray eroded and in some cases were forcibly converted or atrocities commited. We cannot equate everything to Muslim rights & force them to think from the Western point of view. Thats nothing but victim blaming.

 

[pillionrider]

What rubbish is this? Hinduism existed before Buddhism. You are trying to make it look like Buddhism existed before hindus came and overtook the region.

Is this the new drama?

Lord Buddha is glorified as one of the greatest human beings to walk this land. Ashoka's conversion to Buddhism and his efforts to soread buddhism is glorified.

Sigh...we've run through this before haven't we

The Vedas, some literature and certain philosophies predated Buddha. I don't consider them Hinduism. Just because a few chants or prayers from them have made their way to Hinduism, doesn't mean it's Hinduism. How many Hindus read or have read the Vedas? That's like saying Muslims and Christians are all Jews.

When Hindus behave according to or practice the ancient Indian philosophies, we can include all those philosophies as part of Hinduism.

Any theories on why India went from being a Buddhist country to a Hindu majority one? What was the role of Shankaracharya?

Poor Buddha. Even he was reduced (and I use this word with great responsibility) to an avatar of Vishnu, just so Hindu kings who flushed out Buddhism could feel good about themselves.

 

[Local.Dada]

Any theories on why India went from being a Buddhist country to a Hindu majority one? What was the role of Shankaracharya?

Are you telling me Buddhism was non-existent in India by the time of Islamic invasions?

Or are you telling me Shankaracharya had an violent army that destroyed Buddhists and Buddhist sanctuaries and temples?

Have you considered that Shankaracharya’s attempts were to integrate the philosophies of Jainism and Buddhism via spiritual debates because based on Adishankara that seems more logical unless you have a different narrative.

Both Buddhism and Jainism were born from Hinduism to correct some malpractice that crept in. They were never a total alternative.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The point is that no country can have objective view about history- one person’s benefactor is another’s tyrant. The fact is that these ‘most reputed’ news organisations conveniently try to see ahead while forgetting their own country’s checkered past. And lets not forget Hindus have a right to feel differently about the Mughals than the rest of the world - they were the ones who were invaded, their rights to pray eroded and in some cases were forcibly converted or atrocities commited. We cannot equate everything to Muslim rights & force them to think from the Western point of view. Thats nothing but victim blaming.

Hindus have a right to feel differently about the Mughals to the rest of the world, but that doesn't mean they should suddenly find Hindu temple remnants at the site of every mosque. Certainly I would question the validity of claims when they are made by rampant hindutvas like RSS who are the ideologues behind the current governing party, the BJP. Atrocities work both ways. British as well as the Mughals before them tried to stop the ancient Hindu tradition of widow burning, not to mention cruel punishments meted out to lower caste members of Indian society. You can't just blindly play the victim card without looking closely at events and culture around that time.

 

[dildilpak]

Hindus have a right to feel differently about the Mughals to the rest of the world, but that doesn't mean they should suddenly find Hindu temple remnants at the site of every mosque. Certainly I would question the validity of claims when they are made by rampant hindutvas like RSS who are the ideologues behind the current governing party, the BJP. Atrocities work both ways. British as well as the Mughals before them tried to stop the ancient Hindu tradition of widow burning, not to mention cruel punishments meted out to lower caste members of Indian society. You can't just blindly play the victim card without looking closely at events and culture around that time.

Fair enough on the temple/mosque part - no point in trying to find temples everywhere. But that doesnt negate that not every Moghul ruler was Akbar - they were outsiders - they imposed their culture & in many cases attrocities were committed by them on the locals. The one-sided view of events by the Western media without any historical perspective is what i have a problem with.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Fair enough on the temple/mosque part - no point in trying to find temples everywhere. But that doesnt negate that not every Moghul ruler was Akbar - they were outsiders - they imposed their culture & in many cases attrocities were committed by them on the locals. The one-sided view of events by the Western media without any historical perspective is what i have a problem with.

I don't think western media has any reason to take sides in this issue though. Mughal rulers were generally fairly accurately portrayed in British history books, whether the more tolerant and embracing Akbar, or the more Islamist Aurangzeb who was described as less integration minded. Why would Brits care about raising one side's claims above the other's?

 

[Technics 1210]

The reality is present day India is nothing without the Islamic and British heritage that ruled what is modern day India. India’s recognition is owed to Islam and the British.

The entire premise behind rewriting history in this instance, is a rightwing Hindu ideology unable to accept reality because it brings shame on the incumbent.

 

[dildilpak]

I don't think western media has any reason to take sides in this issue though. Mughal rulers were generally fairly accurately portrayed in British history books, whether the more tolerant and embracing Akbar, or the more Islamist Aurangzeb who was described as less integration minded. Why would Brits care about raising one side's claims above the other's?

If the British media is so fair as you claim them to be, they should let India decide how they want to portray their invaders in their books - it is the victim’s prerogative. And before that they should own up to their own atrocities on the sub-continent. People living in glass houses…

 

[dildilpak]

The reality is present day India is nothing without the Islamic and British heritage that ruled what is modern day India. India’s recognition is owed to Islam and the British.

The entire premise behind rewriting history in this instance, is a rightwing Hindu ideology unable to accept reality because it brings shame on the incumbent.

Just like Pakistanis refuse to acknowledge their Hindu origin? I think both sides are equally guilty of this.

 

[Local.Dada]

If the British media is so fair as you claim them to be, they should let India decide how they want to portray their invaders in their books - it is the victim’s prerogative. And before that they should own up to their own atrocities on the sub-continent. People living in glass houses…

The partition of India is the largest human migration in modern history and not finding an equivalence but the amount of lives and property destroyed during that time frame is probably way worse than a lot of other genocides etc we hear about.

Hope that is not a footnote in British history.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If the British media is so fair as you claim them to be, they should let India decide how they want to portray their invaders in their books - it is the victim’s prerogative. And before that they should own up to their own atrocities on the sub-continent. People living in glass houses…

Britain records history according to their own sources. They are not stopping Indians from doing the same. Although it should be mentioned here that on taking office, Modi - hindutva tyrant that he is - immediately started destroying documents in govt buildings. If you think it's a good idea to let people like this rewrite history as a victim's prerogative....well I suppose they can write whatever they like.

 

[Local.Dada]

Britain records history according to their own sources. They are not stopping Indians from doing the same. Although it should be mentioned here that on taking office, Modi - hindutva tyrant that he is - immediately started destroying documents in govt buildings. If you think it's a good idea to let people like this rewrite history as a victim's prerogative....well I suppose they can write whatever they like.

So when you say British is justified in being biased and Pakistan is justified because they are an Islamic country, not sure why you are getting all triggered with what Modi is doing because you have 0 stake in the fight unless you dream of sending your “British” kin to IIT and IIM’s given the reflection of the British public school system on the thread.

 

[PakLFC]

It may have been among certain section but i don't see it as widespread. RSS is not that strong. It seems that way to outside world because they make lots of noises and media covers it. They are on a state backed power trip. The biggest problem in India right now is the there is no logical alternative to BJP. Congress under Rahul Gandhi has declined alot. Third front is non existent as most regional parties can't get along with each other.

"Not that strong" when they are in governance?. Another thing is unless you have traveled extensively in India wouldn't know how influential they are. They even have hardcore supporters in the west now among the Hindu community. Without any alternative Modi will run amok in India. It'll be too late by the time people wake up to realize they were taken for the ride by the Nazi's. Modi's end will be similar to Hitler's.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I don't think Ashokvandana is a myth as there are Chinese translation of it as far back as 300AD. (as per wikipedia). The problem is its accuracy.

I mean what's mentioned in it are myths.

 

[cricketjoshila]

There was no 'offered to Taiwan'. Taiwan's earlier version ROC was a founding member. So it was just a question of who was going to be considered the legitimate holder of the seat - ROC (later Taiwan) or the PRC which later assumed it and continues to do so.

You can check the actual veto votes. There's nothing related to India. As yet.

India was to replace Taiwan as the permanent member from Asia. Ultimately China replaced Taiwan.

Nothing related to India? Can you tell me how many times china put a veto to save Masood Azhar? Why has China put a hold on Makki?

 

[Zaz]

And lets not forget Hindus have a right to feel differently about the Mughals than the rest of the world - they were the ones who were invaded, their rights to pray eroded and in some cases were forcibly converted or atrocities commited. We cannot equate everything to Muslim rights & force them to think from the Western point of view. Thats nothing but victim blaming.

Atrocities have been committed by every emperor ruler Dont tell me asoka shivaji or pritviraj didnt commit crimes

And there were muslims there before the mughals came to town So lets get a few facts straight first It wasnt just the hindus affected

 

[Zaz]

Pakistan first should look at its treatment of minorities before condemning anyone.

What marginalisation? Can you name one law in India that marginalizes muslims?

Muslim heritage doesn't mean non muslims have to accept the glorification of bigoted tyrannical genocidal invaders.

As you see, during BLM movement white colonial heroes are having their names erased, statues pulled down, glorification condemned. Same with the invaders in India.

This isnt a thread about pakistan and its treatment of minorities Open a new thread if you like Stick to the topic on this one rather than indulging in whataboutism

Cutting the mughals forcibly from indian history is cultual vandalism and any sane indian should be embarrassed with the way its so called govt is behaving

So indian muslims being lynched, their houses torn down the islamophobic rhetoric from bjp politicians isnt everyday discrimination or marginalisation

You carry on turning a blind eye Youd get a lot more rescpect if you were honest

 

[Jaansher]

To put it into perspective, let’s start with the definition of India as put forward by the Father of the Nation Mahatma Gandhi:
“I do not expect India of my dreams to develop one religion, i.e. to be wholly Hindu or wholly Christian or wholly Mussalman, but I want it to be wholly tolerant, with its religions working side by side with one another.”
BJP (Radical elements) neither belive in the Indian consititution but follow fascist ideologies and show discrimination towards it's minorities.

 

[Major]

You can open a separate thread about Pakistan if you feel it hasn't already been discussed already. It's not against the rules. You can open yet another one about British Pakistanis as well if you so wish.

You are right i can if i was disturbing a very important topic where intellect debate is going on with an open mind.

However, its a thread to just score points against indians with no worth reading post as [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION] mention.

Its you who has to maitain the quality and if you fail to do so, dont argue about what others have to convey

 

[cricketjoshila]

Atrocities have been committed by every emperor ruler Dont tell me asoka shivaji or pritviraj didnt commit crimes

And there were muslims there before the mughals came to town So lets get a few facts straight first It wasnt just the hindus affected

Glorification of all such invaders will be removed. Dont worry. We will not give any invader special treatment.

African tribes used to fight amongst themselves so they should be fine with colonial invasion.

 

[cricketjoshila]

This isnt a thread about pakistan and its treatment of minorities Open a new thread if you like Stick to the topic on this one rather than indulging in whataboutism

Cutting the mughals forcibly from indian history is cultual vandalism and any sane indian should be embarrassed with the way its so called govt is behaving

So indian muslims being lynched, their houses torn down the islamophobic rhetoric from bjp politicians isnt everyday discrimination or marginalisation

You carry on turning a blind eye Youd get a lot more rescpect if you were honest

If a Pakistani wants to talk about minority treatment he will be shown the mirror.

Cutting off invading bigoted tyrants from history and stopping their glorification is done every where. Tyrants and bigots are not glorified.

Muslims killing hindus and rioting, killing hindus because they married or had an affair with a muslim or killing hindus because they refused to convert is all ok?

If a property is illegal its bound to be torn down. Everyone has the right to move court against that.

Muslim politicians making fun of Hinduism and threatening them is fine?

What discrimination? I am asking you to show a law that discriminates against Indian muslims.

Just because only news where muslims are victims is posted on PP doesn't mean that that's the only thing.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You are right i can if i was disturbing a very important topic where intellect debate is going on with an open mind.

However, its a thread to just score points against indians with no worth reading post as [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION] mention.

Its you who has to maitain the quality and if you fail to do so, dont argue about what others have to convey

My points are addressing the topic, yours are addressing who is making them and making dumb comments about British Pakistanis when it isn't relevant. Even now you are talking about quality of the discussion instead of actually contributing some valid input.

 

[Zaz]

If a Pakistani wants to talk about minority treatment he will be shown the mirror.

Cutting off invading bigoted tyrants from history and stopping their glorification is done every where. Tyrants and bigots are not glorified.

Muslims killing hindus and rioting, killing hindus because they married or had an affair with a muslim or killing hindus because they refused to convert is all ok?

If a property is illegal its bound to be torn down. Everyone has the right to move court against that.

Muslim politicians making fun of Hinduism and threatening them is fine?

What discrimination? I am asking you to show a law that discriminates against Indian muslims.

Just because only news where muslims are victims is posted on PP doesn't mean that that's the only thing.

Nobody apart from you is condoning any violence or extreme rhetoric

How can you say its ok to be anti muslim because....
In no way is discrimination acceptable no matter what

These people in the bjp should not be inflaming sectarian or communal violence They should be leading and uniting the country not dividing it

Your true anti muslim nature pours out of this post Shameful n disgusting

 

[Zaz]

If a Pakistani wants to talk about minority treatment he will be shown the mirror.

Cutting off invading bigoted tyrants from history and stopping their glorification is done every where. Tyrants and bigots are not glorified.

Muslims killing hindus and rioting, killing hindus because they married or had an affair with a muslim or killing hindus because they refused to convert is all ok?

If a property is illegal its bound to be torn down. Everyone has the right to move court against that.

Muslim politicians making fun of Hinduism and threatening them is fine?

What discrimination? I am asking you to show a law that discriminates against Indian muslims.

Just because only news where muslims are victims is posted on PP doesn't mean that that's the only thing.

So its fine for elected govt officials to encourage violence against muslims because muslims do the same thats whay your basically saying

Bhai mere since when did two wrongs make a right?

Any sane voice would say any acts or rhetoric of violence or discrimination by anyone are wrong particualrly elected govt officials who should be held to a much higher standard than the ordinary man but here we have cricket joshila quite clearly condoning such behaviour and making excuses for it

 

[Technics 1210]

The creation of Pakistan - lets feel sorry for India.

Ruled by Muslims - lets feel sorry for India.

Ruled.by Brits - lets feel sorry for India

Like Isreal, India's existence and recognition is based on sympathy.

 

[KB]

This is not about the past, it is about the present. This is not about history, it is about collective memory. History as a discipline aims at enhancing understanding and its primarily purpose is not in producing moral disquisitions. This is about shaping the contemporary values and identity that the BJP want to inculcate. We should not confuse history, as a discipline, with ideology.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This will be known as RSS history of India.

You cannot change the past but only fool and indoctrinate your people with extremist mindsets. World Historians and history books outside of India will always see the Mughals as Indians who made the land a powerful rich nation.


Now under Hindu rule, India is a 3rd world nation. Its better for India to follow the example of the Mughals so Indians can eat and build toilets.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So its fine for elected govt officials to encourage violence against muslims because muslims do the same thats whay your basically saying

Bhai mere since when did two wrongs make a right?

Any sane voice would say any acts or rhetoric of violence or discrimination by anyone are wrong particualrly elected govt officials who should be held to a much higher standard than the ordinary man but here we have cricket joshila quite clearly condoning such behaviour and making excuses for it

This two wrong dont make right philosophy works in books. For every Owaisi there would be some one replying from the other side. Thats the hard truth.

Any sane voice will tell you that human beings will react to provocation. If a section of a 17 per cent minority thinks it will scare the rest of the country, they are just provoking a similar reaction.

 

[JaDed]

This is not about the past, it is about the present. This is not about history, it is about collective memory. History as a discipline aims at enhancing understanding and its primarily purpose is not in producing moral disquisitions. This is about shaping the contemporary values and identity that the BJP want to inculcate. We should not confuse history, as a discipline, with ideology.

True but the ideology is the reason why weightage was given to the Mughal parts of history more.

While it’s fair but a substantial amount of India doesn’t even know about North East and Southern kingdoms.

 

[cricketjoshila]

This will be known as RSS history of India.

You cannot change the past but only fool and indoctrinate your people with extremist mindsets. World Historians and history books outside of India will always see the Mughals as Indians who made the land a powerful rich nation.


Now under Hindu rule, India is a 3rd world nation. Its better for India to follow the example of the Mughals so Indians can eat and build toilets.

Timurids will always be known as tyrannical bigoted looters who invaded a rich land and looted it. Tried to destroy an ancient culture and religion.

Pakistanis like you should be the last one to talk about poverty when pakistan is running around begging to run the country. Follow your advise and make pakistan rich.

Oh i forgot, pakistan is already following your advise, hence the elite are living in luxury and the ordinary people are suffering..Elite looting the country and poor having difficulty to survive. Mughal rule indeed.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Why is India changing its book affecting Pakistan? How is pakistan connected?

 

[Local.Dada]

Timurids will always be known as tyrannical bigoted looters who invaded a rich land and looted it. Tried to destroy an ancient culture and religion.

Pakistanis like you should be the last one to talk about poverty when pakistan is running around begging to run the country. Follow your advise and make pakistan rich.

Oh i forgot, pakistan is already following your advise, hence the elite are living in luxury and the ordinary people are suffering..Elite looting the country and poor having difficulty to survive. Mughal rule indeed.

Even as kings Mughals (and this is documented history before someone calls this Hindutva agent) that pretty much every Mughal Emperor killed his father or brothers to get to the throne. So as humans they weren’t such upstanding heroes.

Now let’s ignore that for the second, they used to drink, indulge in debauchery and hunt and do a lot of things that are considered now unislamic. However it’s ironic that a lot of pious Muslims on this forum consider them heroes.

I can name 10 Muslims off the top of my head I can call as my role model even as a Hindu and none of them are Mughals and I confidently say we’re greater Muslims and humans than these guys.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Timurids will always be known as tyrannical bigoted looters who invaded a rich land and looted it. Tried to destroy an ancient culture and religion.

Pakistanis like you should be the last one to talk about poverty when pakistan is running around begging to run the country. Follow your advise and make pakistan rich.

Oh i forgot, pakistan is already following your advise, hence the elite are living in luxury and the ordinary people are suffering..Elite looting the country and poor having difficulty to survive. Mughal rule indeed.

India and Pak are both 3rd world nation, the difference being India has 3 x the population of Pakistan in poverty, many of these in serious poverty.

History is the world outside of India will always show the great culture of the Mughals. It doesnt matter what is written in RSS sanksrit books written by some Saffron clad Yogi.

 

[Major]

Man why can’t history just be history .. learn and move on.. Dinosaurs ruled the Earth once .. maybe we invaded their land lol(jk)

I don’t understand Pakistan’s fascination with Mughals as well.. just teach history as it is.. and then from 1947 onwards actual History that matters for our countries.

Its about creating national identity. National identity gets created by having ancollevtive memory which is what @kb hinted towards.

Forget the Mughals, our history starts from Mohammad Bin Qasim. We consider him to be a Pakistani as he was the first muslim conqueror to come here. Thats where our history starts from.... All hindus and sikhs rulers are ignored unless they were in conflict, muslims being good guys and them being bad.

We made that mistake and still are by justifying it.

And while the op made this thread to score points, india shouldnt commit the same mistakes as we did and not turn their history as a propoganda to cultivate a national identity by eridicating parts of history.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is not about the past, it is about the present. This is not about history, it is about collective memory. History as a discipline aims at enhancing understanding and its primarily purpose is not in producing moral disquisitions. This is about shaping the contemporary values and identity that the BJP want to inculcate. We should not confuse history, as a discipline, with ideology.

But BJP seems stuck in the past and seems hellbent on righting perceived wrongs from centuries ago. While I agree with the general principles you espouse, I am not sure I can equate them with the Hindutva movement.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Its about creating national identity. National identity gets created by having ancollevtive memory which is what @kb hinted towards.

Forget the Mughals, our history starts from Mohammad Bin Qasim. We consider him to be a Pakistani as he was the first muslim conqueror to come here. Thats where our history starts from.... All hindus and sikhs rulers are ignored unless they were in conflict, muslims being good guys and them being bad.

We made that mistake and still are by justifying it.

And while the op made this thread to score points, india shouldnt commit the same mistakes as we did and not turn their history as a propoganda to cultivate a national identity by eridicating parts of history.

You need to ask yourself why India is going down this route then. Hindutva movement didn't spring up overnight, if I'm not wrong, Gandhi was assassinated by one of their soldiers. Why does India need to create a national identity all of a sudden if their civilisation is older and more noteworthy than a failed state which is barely 70 years old?

 

[cricketjoshila]

India and Pak are both 3rd world nation, the difference being India has 3 x the population of Pakistan in poverty, many of these in serious poverty.

History is the world outside of India will always show the great culture of the Mughals. It doesnt matter what is written in RSS sanksrit books written by some Saffron clad Yogi.

Why don't you post a proper source for your claims of poverty? Pakistani rupees has fallen by how much in last 12 months?

Pakistanis are free to follow what they want, it doesn't matter if some muslims think that opium addicted, wine drinking, characterless, iconoclastic, intolerant, looting, invaders were there heroes.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistan is tottering under economic issues and pakistanis are more concerned with what books Indians read and how they can take potshots at India on a Pakistani forum.

 

[Major]

You need to ask yourself why India is going down this route then. Hindutva movement didn't spring up overnight, if I'm not wrong, Gandhi was assassinated by one of their soldiers. Why does India need to create a national identity all of a sudden if their civilisation is older and more noteworthy than a failed state which is barely 70 years old?

India is going down this route because of few groups that believe in a hindu state. That is not possible unless and until you create that national identity.

That national identity is created either through editting history or by using an incident to provoke your people.

Just like in pakistan we had our lunatics who believed that islam should be used to build a national identity for pakistan same way hindus probably have theirs.

Right now there is a conflict. Nehru and gandhi gave the country a secular Constitution... I was surprised when i found out that delhi had a road named after aurangzeb to exist...

For the hindutva groups and parties, if they want india to become a hindu nation they will first have to play with the national identity. Than they will have to decide what to do with its large minorities, because under a hindutva identity they dont come.

Once the national identity is changed through collective memory only than the constitution can ne changed from a secular one and india becomes an official hindu state.

It really disturbs me to think that whatwere our muslim politicians of the 50s were thinking when they decided to make pakistan an official muslim state. I always wonder that in their mind what was the solution for the minorities.....