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India defeat New Zealand by 197 runs in the first Test at Kanpur

Jeetan Patel comes into the squad to replace Craig who has been ruled out with injury.
 
This will not be over fast.

The pitch is not playing up. It comes alive..then settles down. Back and forth.

Spinners have to keep it tight and wait.

It may take much longer.
 
the spinner lasted 99 balls? The pitch was spinning like crazy in day 3 when kiwis were batting, how is the pitch? Is it spinning or it's flat now?
 
Both spinners trying to use rough from both ends cos nothing is happening in the business areas barring the odd ones.

Thank God we didn't have just a 250 lead.
 
Two new ball rule has killed us as well in LOI considering we had got Shami ,although i expected Umesh to do a better job at reverse swing.
 
Santner playing really well here. Still expect this to be over before lunch
 
Congrats to India, easily the better side.

Bit of a rant, but here we go...

Ashwin and Jadeja's numbers are a joke, no matter what their stats suggest they are NOT world class and will NOT be remembered fondly for their ability till they start performing in unfavorable conditions.

Their numbers suggest they're world class/ATG's but they are not. And no one who has watched them will ever rate them any thing more than decent.
 
Aman said:
Congrats to India, easily the better side.

Bit of a rant, but here we go...

Ashwin and Jadeja's numbers are a joke, no matter what their stats suggest they are NOT world class and will NOT be remembered fondly for their ability till they start performing in unfavorable conditions.

Their numbers suggest they're world class/ATG's but they are not. And no one who has watched them will ever rate them any thing more than decent.
Click to expand...

Jadeja one can understand but Ashwin not being world class? Its like saying Boult is not World Class but just a decent bowler
 
Gratz

Well done and an awesome performance by Ashwin
 
I'm already feeling sorry for all the teams who will visit us in this year. None of them sand any chance against us. We r easily the best team in the world and the only team who truly deserve that no 1 spot. :)
 
Nah dude....we are not the best team.

Number 1....we will get that soon.

Its very funny.

Our batsmen are a bit inconsistent against spin but our bowlers have the potential to take 20 wickets in such pitches.
Our batsmen are more consistent overseas but our bowlers don't have that potential to take 20 wickets there.

So limbo.....lol

Right now our focus should be to win all home tests this season. That is doable (assuming rains don't play spoilsport) but it needs ruthlessness and sustained performances.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Nah dude....we are not the best team.

Number 1....we will get that soon.

Its very funny.

Our batsmen are a bit inconsistent against spin but our bowlers have the potential to take 20 wickets in such pitches.
Our batsmen are more consistent overseas but our bowlers don't have that potential to take 20 wickets there.

So limbo.....lol

Right now our focus should be to win all home tests this season. That is doable (assuming rains don't play spoilsport) but it needs ruthlessness and sustained performances.
Click to expand...

That we are not the best test team is undisputed, that we suck overseas is undisputed, that we rock at home is undisputed.

However why we can be #1 is due to the rankings, that the rankings are screwed is undisputed as well :P
 
Jeetan Patel will be back next test who has been very good in English county circuit. He has improved over the years.

NZ spin will improve.

Hopefully we will have Mishra back.
 
I feel NZ will compete much better in Kolkata..expecting slow turn there.Our batsmen must start developing the habit of getting big ones and subduing the opposition in conditions suitable for batting
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Nah dude....we are not the best team.

Number 1....we will get that soon.

Its very funny.

Our batsmen are a bit inconsistent against spin but our bowlers have the potential to take 20 wickets in such pitches.
Our batsmen are more consistent overseas but our bowlers don't have that potential to take 20 wickets there.

So limbo.....lol

Right now our focus should be to win all home tests this season. That is doable (assuming rains don't play spoilsport) but it needs ruthlessness and sustained performances.
Click to expand...

Which is a good thing imo since this is a young team. It shows that the team has potential but just aren't getting it right. Whether it's application or gameplan.

So far this team has shown good progress away but SL and WI aren't really tough challenges, so we'll have to wait and watch if we've finally found a good combination to win away vs tough opponents.
 
Kiwis are not folding as expect Ronchi,Santner,KW will make a lot of difference should be careful against these 3.
Massive let down in the fielding this match we wouldn't win if we dropped that many against England.
 
nish_mate said:
Cheers mate- good to see authentic Kiwi fans having the sporting spirit in them
Click to expand...
Yeah, we got hammered but the numbers your spinners are wracking up at home is ridiculous. You're no better than the Aussies who score runs at home for fun then are hopeless whenever the ball moves an inch.

Ashwin averages 33.23 outside India with 67 wickets in 17 Tests.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...;home_or_away=2;template=results;type=bowling

If you also remove Bangladesh, SL and WI, his average rises to 50.10 with 24 wickets in 9 Tests.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling

That's not world class, that's called some heavy padding.
 
This isn't being a sore loser, I knew we were going to lose. We're a terrible side, but you can't ignore the fact these bowlers are woeful the moment they step out of their comfort zone, despite what their numbers might suggest.
 
Aman said:
Yeah, we got hammered but the numbers your spinners are wracking up at home is ridiculous. You're no better than the Aussies who score runs at home for fun then are hopeless whenever the ball moves an inch.

Ashwin averages 33.23 outside India with 67 wickets in 17 Tests.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...;home_or_away=2;template=results;type=bowling

If you also remove Bangladesh, SL and WI, his average rises to 50.10 with 24 wickets in 9 Tests.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling

That's not world class, that's called some heavy padding.
Click to expand...

And then of those tours outside, how many were his first tours, unless you expect him to learn everything on the internet looking at videos, considering he doesnt play either county or grade.

He is not a Murali and no one is claiming that, but your constant moaning is a bit tiring after 3 years, so sock it son.
 
Half the battle is lost when your spinners don't show up in India. Craig and Sodhi just didn't do their job.

Santner was respectable and showed his value with the bat. Good find, but not enough against an Indian team on those pitches.
 
Aman said:
This isn't being a sore loser, I knew we were going to lose. We're a terrible side, but you can't ignore the fact these bowlers are woeful the moment they step out of their comfort zone, despite what their numbers might suggest.
Click to expand...

Kinda same for all the bowlers in the world, unless you are a steyn or 2011-2013 Anderson, none of the current day bowlers perfrom world class outside their comfort zone- but you being you gonna moan about Indian wins.

Pretty poor from but then seen a lot of Uncle Tom traits in a lot of second gen kids trying to prove their loyalty real hard and appear to be cool trying to diss a country- so they can fit in.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
If you are gonna do stat analysis, atleast do it properly.

Haha.
Click to expand...
What am I missing?

Those numbers prove his numbers are heavily padded by performances at home.

His record in countries which don't assist spinners is beyond mediocre.
 
Aman said:
What am I missing?

Those numbers prove his numbers are heavily padded by performances at home.

His record in countries which don't assist spinners is beyond mediocre.
Click to expand...

You are missing a lot.

Eating. Will post a stat response later. Maybe someone else will do it for you meanwhile.
 
Aman said:
This isn't being a sore loser, I knew we were going to lose. We're a terrible side, but you can't ignore the fact these bowlers are woeful the moment they step out of their comfort zone, despite what their numbers might suggest.
Click to expand...

Mate what you on about, you were singing a different tune on day 2 and were trolling every where left right centre- dont try be an angel now- "knew we were gonna lose"

From if Big Mac was here, to Kohli sucks to Kane showing how its done- to now we were gonna lose- yeah right.

Pull another one.
 
nish_mate said:
Kinda same for all the bowlers in the world, unless you are a steyn or 2011-2013 Anderson, none of the current day bowlers perfrom world class outside their comfort zone- but you being you gonna moan about Indian wins.

Pretty poor from but then seen a lot of Uncle Tom traits in a lot of second gen kids trying to prove their loyalty real hard and appear to be cool trying to diss a country- so they can fit in.
Click to expand...
This is coming from someone who only rates Steyn, Rabada, Philander, Broad, Starc and Yasir.

I don't even think Boult deserves as praise as he gets, he's been found wanting time and time again when the ball isn't doing anything. He's not capable of running through sides either.
 
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Aman said:
This is coming from someone who only rates Steyn, Rabada, Philander, Broad, Starc and Yasir.

I don't even think Boult deserves as praise as he gets, he's been found wanting time and time again when the ball isn't doing anything. He's not capable of running through sides either.
Click to expand...

Philander done zilch in India, Yasir hasnt toured so cant say, but yes is a top leggie, Steyn already commented upon.

Starc is a beast in ODI, in tests dunno unproven outside home. Thing being and you dont want to know is Ashwin has done only 1 tour of England (possibly 2 in Oz), SA, OZ

OZ is known as the graveyard of off spinners. If in his next tours he is same pish poor then agree he is over rated.

Jadeja is gun in India, same as Philander in seam, Broad in England, Amir in helpful conditions, Moeen at home

Jadeja no WC- but part of a gun spin duo, and at the moment India is not touring abroad, so leave your sooking about them being poor out, for we will not be touring- when we tour you can moan.

Till then either accept phainty or just sock it.
 
nish_mate said:
Philander done zilch in India, Yasir hasnt toured so cant say, but yes is a top leggie, Steyn already commented upon.

Starc is a beast in ODI, in tests dunno unproven outside home. Thing being and you dont want to know is Ashwin has done only 1 tour of England (possibly 2 in Oz), SA, OZ

OZ is known as the graveyard of off spinners. If in his next tours he is same pish poor then agree he is over rated.

Jadeja is gun in India, same as Philander in seam, Broad in England, Amir in helpful conditions, Moeen at home

Jadeja no WC- but part of a gun spin duo, and at the moment India is not touring abroad, so leave your sooking about them being poor out, for we will not be touring- when we tour you can moan.

Till then either accept phainty or just sock it.
Click to expand...
I've put Starc and Rabada on there on potential.

Starc had a fantastic series in SL and was a menace against us at home on those Aussie phattas.

Philander has a decent record in Asia and he was great on our flat wickets when SA last toured.
 
nish_mate said:
And then of those tours outside, how many were his first tours, unless you expect him to learn everything on the internet looking at videos, considering he doesnt play either county or grade.

He is not a Murali and no one is claiming that, but your constant moaning is a bit tiring after 3 years, so sock it son.
Click to expand...

tbh this 'first tour' excuse is kinda lame and self defeating
 
Slog said:
tbh this 'first tour' excuse is kinda lame and self defeating
Click to expand...

Point accepted, but then when folks talk about Steyn (no comparison made), they conveniently forget the had a horrid first tour of England, or with any other bowler- but when it comes to any decent Indian bowl, certain quarters will keep on bringing that point.
 
nish_mate said:
Point accepted, but then when folks talk about Steyn (no comparison made), they conveniently forget the had a horrid first tour of England, or with any other bowler- but when it comes to any decent Indian bowl, certain quarters will keep on bringing that point.
Click to expand...

yes but over time it should even out. Steyns away record was significantly better a few more tours in whereas Ashwin has had somewhat of a struggle everytime on unhelpful pitches so far. (though he did do okay in Aus 2014 even if numbers dont show it)

dont agree with Aman's point all said and done. His point may have relevance inrelation to Jadeja though
 
Well done India. Good batting by Vijay and Pujara. Good all-around from Jadej and Ash. Hope NZ win the next won.
 
Slog said:
yes but over time it should even out. Steyns away record was significantly better a few more tours in whereas Ashwin has had somewhat of a struggle everytime on unhelpful pitches so far. (though he did do okay in Aus 2014 even if numbers dont show it)

dont agree with Aman's point all said and done. His point may have relevance inrelation to Jadeja though
Click to expand...

Mate I have said myself Jadeja is not WC, but a gun support bowler.
 
Aman said:
What am I missing?

Those numbers prove his numbers are heavily padded by performances at home.

His record in countries which don't assist spinners is beyond mediocre.
Click to expand...

First thing in stats that we see is sample set...and apples to apples comparison.

If you had broken down his stats country wise and seen with test matches played, you would have got the full picture.

Anyways, to elaborate a bit:

Breakdown of Ashwin's country wise stat:

India, SL, Ban, WI - 20, 19, 18, 22
Eng - 33
SA - Not applicable
Aus - 54

If you had just scrolled down that cricinfo page you posted, you would have seen that Ashwin played 2 tests in Eng and 1 test in SA. In fact, if you really see properly, Ashwin has bowled only 2 proper innings in these 2 countries - 3/72 (Eng) and 0/86 (SA).

So basically he failed in Aus with a reliable sample set.

Now why did he fail in Aus? A good spinner shouldn't fail in Aus right?

Well....unfortunately Aus is a bit of a problem area for spinners. You can check out how other famous spinners have done in Aus here (namely Murali, Kumble, Vettori, Saqlain, Swann, etc) -

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

And mind you...of the above bowlers except for Swann got to play in the modern super pattas of Aus...

Ashwin is a failure in Aus...but as of now, he has failed ONLY in Aus.

He just didn't play enough anywhere else (outside Asia barring WI) to make a call.

As for his stats being padded due to home performances....well they are definitely padded due to home tracks...but then if a bowler can tour other nations (albeit easy ones in Ban, SL and WI) and still average 20 or less in those places (similar to his home average) when pitches there would NOT be based on what BCCI orders, then maybe there is more to this story than what meets the eye.

Maybe its a case of needing to wait.
 
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Even our arch rivals are more sporting than a KIWI fan :facepalm:

Cheers for the congrats Parosees
 
Aman said:
This isn't being a sore loser, I knew we were going to lose. We're a terrible side, but you can't ignore the fact these bowlers are woeful the moment they step out of their comfort zone, despite what their numbers might suggest.
Click to expand...

so, what's your view on swann, he averages 33.08 with 100 wickets in 24 matches outside his home in against decent opposition.
and if you exclude India and Sri Lanka(good conditions for spinners) his average goes down to 38.
so, do you consider swann to be world class spinner or below average?

this cherry picking of stats can make any good bowler look bad.
and finally, when you start your argument by saying "I'm not being a sore loser, but..." most of the time you are acting like one.
 
Spidy201 said:
so, what's your view on swann, he averages 33.08 with 100 wickets in 24 matches outside his home in against decent opposition.
and if you exclude India and Sri Lanka(good conditions for spinners) his average goes down to 38.
so, do you consider swann to be world class spinner or below average?

this cherry picking of stats can make any good bowler look bad.
and finally, when you start your argument by saying "I'm not being a sore loser, but..." most of the time you are acting like one.
Click to expand...
This is probably the first time I've properly sat down at followed a Test in India in a while. The turn the off spinners and SLA's were getting on day 2 was ridiculous, some of the balls were turning square at times.

Swann doesn't have ATG level stats like Ashwin or Jadeja, so of course no one is going to scrutinize him as much.
 
Aman said:
This is probably the first time I've properly sat down at followed a Test in India in a while. The turn the off spinners and SLA's were getting on day 2 was ridiculous, some of the balls were turning square at times.

Swann doesn't have ATG level stats like Ashwin or Jadeja, so of course no one is going to scrutinize him as much.
Click to expand...

And what happened to the same spin on day 3 & 4, when India was batting and Super Kane's bowlers could muster only 5 wickets- by the same yardstick, Ish,Satander and Craig should have got bucket heaps of wickets.
 
Aman said:
This is coming from someone who only rates Steyn, Rabada, Philander, Broad, Starc and Yasir.

I don't even think Boult deserves as praise as he gets, he's been found wanting time and time again when the ball isn't doing anything. He's not capable of running through sides either.
Click to expand...

Oh come on, this wasn't a rank turner. Just a typical Indian track. Runs could definitely be scored on this wicket, even Santner said the same in the post match interview. Ashwin and Jadeja are very effective on slow Asian tracks which takes turn just like Broad and Anderson are super effective in English conditions when the conditions are in their favour.

But what has Broad done in Asia to be considered world class?

He averages nearly 38 with a strike rate of 85.

To put things into context, Umesh Yadav of all people averages 28 with a SR of 51 in Asia.

Even Philander averages 32 in Asia. Surely these aren't world class numbers too, no?
 
street cricketer said:
Oh come on, this wasn't a rank turner. Just a typical Indian track. Runs could definitely be scored on this wicket, even Santner said the same in the post match interview. Ashwin and Jadeja are very effective on slow Asian tracks which takes turn just like Broad and Anderson are super effective in English conditions when the conditions are in their favour.

But what has Broad done in Asia to be considered world class?

He averages nearly 38 with a strike rate of 85.

To put things into context, Umesh Yadav of all people averages 28 with a SR of 51 in Asia.

Even Philander averages 32 in Asia. Surely these aren't world class numbers too, no?
Click to expand...
I never said it was a rank turner, but you know it's a favorable wicket when you have an offie turning it square and getting the ball to rip like an offie on day 2.

I'd take an average of 30 in Asia, it's that difficult for pacers to pick up wickets there.

World class is anyone who has proven himself in a different conditions around the world.

ATG level you have to have an average of 25 or lower over your career. Ashwin and Jadeja are at ATG level stats wise, but have failed to prove themselves in conditions that are unfavorable to them, and will likely never do it because they simply aren't skilled enough to do so.
 
Why is Philander rated that high?Anderson beats him even in home track impact imho
 
Aman said:
I never said it was a rank turner, but you know it's a favorable wicket when you have an offie turning it square and getting the ball to rip like an offie on day 2.

I'd take an average of 30 in Asia, it's that difficult for pacers to pick up wickets there.

World class is anyone who has proven himself in different conditions around the world.

ATG level you have to have an average of 25 or lower over your career. Ashwin and Jadeja are at ATG level stats wise, but have failed to prove themselves in conditions that are unfavorable to them, and will likely never do it because they simply aren't skilled enough to do so.
Click to expand...
Ops.
 
Aman said:
I never said it was a rank turner, but you know it's a favorable wicket when you have an offie turning it square and getting the ball to rip like an offie on day 2.

I'd take an average of 30 in Asia, it's that difficult for pacers to pick up wickets there.

World class is anyone who has proven himself in a different conditions around the world.

ATG level you have to have an average of 25 or lower over your career. Ashwin and Jadeja are at ATG level stats wise, but have failed to prove themselves in conditions that are unfavorable to them, and will likely never do it because they simply aren't skilled enough to do so.
Click to expand...

a guy named murlidharan averages 32.3 against top 5(aus, Ind, Pak, SA, Eng) teams in their backyards. his average drops further to almost 36 if we take out Eng(weakest team against spin among top 5 of his time)

in India he averages 42 in 11 matches and 75!!! in aus. do you consider him ATG bowler? in case you started watching cricket only in this ongoing series, he is considered ATG by most people.
 
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