India-Pakistan All-Time ODI XI

[Bhaijaan]

Pakistanis are genuinely hurt that with the passage of time, their presence in the ATG sides overall is diminishing and it is perfectly understandable. They’re venting that anger at Bharatiya posters however which is wrong. It’s the PCB, the Pakistan government that they must lambaste

 

[big_gamer007]

Opinion?

Stats are not opinion.

Stats show that Sangakkara, Kallis, Steve smith are better test bats than Sachin, do you concur with that?

 

[Bhaijaan]

Stats show that Sangakkara, Kallis, Steve smith are better test bats than Sachin, do you concur with that?

They do not.
Try harder

 

[big_gamer007]

They do not.
Try harder

You can’t pick and choose mate.

You can look up test stats they are available online.
You can pick and choose stats to make any player look better than any other, but overall stats show the three players I mentioned are better than Sachin as per the criteria you defined saying Shami is better than Wasim.

 

[kron]

You can’t pick and choose mate.

You can look up test stats they are available online.
You can pick and choose stats to make any player look better than any other, but overall stats show the three players I mentioned are better than Sachin as per the criteria you defined saying Shami is better than Wasim.

Wasim is ahead of shami in tests and odi but shami is ahead of waqar.

 

[kron]

Stats show that Sangakkara, Kallis, Steve smith are better test bats than Sachin, do you concur with that?

I agree that Smith perhaps at his peak is better than Sachin although Sachin never got to play with India's brutal pace battery post 2015. So it's debatable but I can understand people putting smith above.

Sanga never performed vs big sides away from home. If he did it was for a losing cause. He isn't good enough.

Kalis is the best player of all time and yes he is ahead of Sachin.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Wasim is ahead of shami in tests and odi but shami is ahead of waqar.

Shami is mot ahead of Waqar in tests, Odis yes but definitely not tests and there is no metric to prove that.

 

[Mainul]

So , after watching cricket for 3 generation you come to the conclusion that Waqar is better than Bumrah? Looks like watching less cricket gives a better understanding of it.

I am in position to compare both because I saw entire career of Waqar. Waqar was comfortably below Bumrah due to not having many skills. Waqar's limited skills shows up below against good sides.

Good sides thrashed Waqar in general. You don't have to watch games, you can see his actual output against the top 5-6 sides. Mcgrath, Donald, Ambrose, Bishop, Walsh, Pollock, Wasim etc played at the same time. Now Waqar was very effective agaisnt the bottom 4 teams( NZ/SL/Zim/BD). Weaker sides found it hard to tackle his insinwing yorkers and that made Waqar's career.

Very few have watched Marshall but it's not hard to see why he is rated near the top in history as a pacer. Same way, you don't actually had to watch Waqar to see that he struggled agasint the top sides. Hardly 8-9 countries played test back then.

This is not even away performance. That was worse for Waqar. Waqar has a very good record at home and despite that he averages 29-29 combining home and away both.

I am not even going into non-cricket factor. There is very little evidence to suggest that Waqar would have dominated current generation.


View attachment 146243

You just ruined your explanation by saying Waqar had limited skills !! He was highly skillful bowler. Inswing outswing,reverse swing, yorker what not he had!

Waqar regressed (had to by modifying his bowling action) after his stress fracture yet he gave a handful match winning performances. And against top sides. 1996 tour to England,test win against SA in SA. Pre fracture he was devastating, a treat to watch.

Look at number of overs he bowled. Only 17 overs per innings,the lowest in that list in comparison to other premium bowlers. Injury was a factor. Pakistan that time didn't manage his injury well.

He used to bowl fuller length ,thats why he went for runs sometimes. But saying he was thrashed by top teams is overexeration. He was a strike bowler having one of the best SR in that list.

And man, this thread is about ODI. You skillfully completely escaped it. If you bring stat of ODIs Waqar is arguably the best or one of the best in cricket history.

 

[TheSultan]

The fallacy of Waqar not performing against good teams.

West Indies was the best team in the world until they lost to Australia in 1995

He played 6 test matches against the best team of his generation 1990-95

6 matches, 35 wickets, average 19.42, strike rate 32.2. 3 5fers

The infamous 1992 series vs England, England had 2 batsmen in rated top 5 in the world. Joint man of the series.

And all this talk of away matches. It’s harder to get wickets on the flat tracks of Pakistan than away, but he’s performed in England, West Indies and New Zealand.

The only notable absence is Australia away. He had one series immediately after his second stress fracture, and one match in 1999.

I don’t consider Waqar post second back injury a great bowler, but he came back, produced some decent performances and maintained a good standard without being great. But the fact that he actually came back from 2 back injuries in that era is an achievement in itself.

To say he had no skill is ludicrous.

 

[kron]

Shami is mot ahead of Waqar in tests, Odis yes but definitely not tests and there is no metric to prove that.

Their away averages in sena v sewai
Is very similar

Not much difference at all.

And at home shami is breathtaking. So was waqar in his home. Very comparable.

 

[nish_mate]

Not sure of other 9 players, but in ODIs Saqlain and Wasim would be nailing a slot each in the playing XI.

 

[Buffet]

You just ruined your explanation by saying Waqar had limited skills !! He was highly skillful bowler. Inswing outswing,reverse swing, yorker what not he had!

Waqar regressed (had to by modifying his bowling action) after his stress fracture yet he gave a handful match winning performances. And against top sides. 1996 tour to England,test win against SA in SA. Pre fracture he was devastating, a treat to watch.

He used to bowl fuller length ,thats why he went for runs sometimes. But saying he was thrashed by top teams is overexeration. He was a strike bowler having one of the best SR in that list.

And man, this thread is about ODI. You skillfully completely escaped it. If you bring stat of ODIs Waqar is arguably the best or one of the best in cricket history.

Is there a period when Waqar actually averaged below 25 against top 5 side of his era? I mean even with some cherry picked period? Waqar's in his peak ( debute till end of 1994 ) - Averaged 25+ taken together agaisnt the the top 5 sides ( Aus, WI, SA, Eng, Ind).

Waqar had zero new ball skills. He was so heavily reliant on inswinging yorkers that he literally couldn't take 5-fers agaisnt non-minnows after 1994 when he lost his pace. Can you name a single other bowler with lots of skill not able to take 5-fers in 40-50 tests against non-minnows? I don't think we can name any.
Waqar agaisnt non-minnows in 43 tests: Highly skillful bowlers don't play 40-50 tests with 1 5-fers. Skills will show up in results with a large sample size, right? He just had one things going for him and after losing pace, he was not able to pick 5-fers. If he knew how to use new ball then we would have seen lots of 5-fers despite him losing pace.There is literally no other great bowler with such a poor new ball skills.


Now about ODI, he was thrashed pretty big in ODI. Just take Donald and Waqar in ODI to make this point clear because Donald finished in 2003 as well. Donald ER was 4.15 and SR was 31. SR of near 30 means, donald was not going to pick even 2 wickets on average in 10 overs on ODI. Waqar had SR of 30 and at the same time he went with ER of 4.7 per over. Waqar was very expensive in ODI for his era. 200-220 used to be scores on those days. Being so expensive could have been justified if he was averaging 15 or SR was 15. 5 Waqar's bowling together will not bowl out sides most of the times but give 240 runs and that was a losing situation in his era. Also, in ODI your reputation is made in WC games. He was a non-entity in WC games as well.

Waqar was great for cricket with his inswinging yorker/reverse and treat to watch for 4-5 years in the test foramt. Let's appreciate him for that. He was not a great ODI bowler. He couldn't use new ball and that's a huge limitation for any pacer in the test format.

 

[Buffet]

Not sure of other 9 players, but in ODIs Saqlain and Wasim would be nailing a slot each in the playing XI.

+1

Both will be strong contender for even all time ODI world XI for me.

 

[nish_mate]

+1

Both will be strong contender for even all time ODI world XI for me.

Yupp Wasim for sure, Saqlain would be a toss up with Warnie depending on the ground if 1 spinner or two.

Both Wasim and Saqlain were magicians, artist log they

 

[TheSultan]

Waqar was great for cricket with his inswinging yorker/reverse and treat to watch for 4-5 years in the test foramt. Let's appreciate him for that. He was not a great ODI bowler. He couldn't use new ball and that's a huge limitation for any pacer in the test format.

Don’t know why this has become a Waqar thread.

Waqar’s stats suffered in the second part of his career, but to say he couldn’t use the new ball is a bit disingenuous. Towards the end of his career he was a very good new ball bowler.

He wasn’t great with the new ball in his early years, but that was not his role. He was a speedster who was picked to bowl fast much in the mould of how Mark Wood, Nortje and Lockie are used these days. Neither of those open the bowling.

Even then he bowled some great spells with a non reversing ball. Oval 1992. St John’s, West Windies 1993.

He bowled some frightening and hostile opening spells vs England at Old Trafford 1992 and Oval 1996. Alec Stewart has gone on record to say those spells vs wasim and Waqar were the most torrid spells he’s faced in his whole career.

In ODIs again - he’s had some great non World Cup tournaments. 1990 Australia cup, tri series vs SA and West Indies 1993, NatWest Trophy in England 2001. He was expensive yes. But that was his role. We had the aqibs, ata ur rehmans etc for the donkey work.

Waqar was not an economical bowler. He was an attacking one. There should be no apologies about that. And with a strike rate of 43 in tests and 30 in ODIs (even after such a sharp decline post 1996, I’d say he had a great career fulfilling his role.

He will never compete with McGrath, Bumrah, Ambrose in economy rates. If that’s your thing, go ahead pick them ahead of him.

 

[Hikaru]

Sachin
Rohit
Virat
Sehwag
Inzi
Yuvraj
Dhoni
Kapil Dev
Ravindra Jadeja
Wasim Akram
Jaspreet Bumrah

Wish Saeed Ajmal was legal, would have been my sole specialist spinner in the team.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Saqlain is not mentioned that much but he was a beast spinner. So easy for him to set-up a batter and get him out.

 

[Unleashed]

I just laughed at some posts of Gen G. They didn't watch 80s and 90s cricket. So their balance shifted to post 2010 cricketers with an imbalance. Just i want to point it out that Bumrah will feel lucky to tie the shoelaces of Waqar Younis.

I genuinely hope Pakistan cricket gets back to even some decent level because the continous mediocrity has caused some people to lose their mental balance.

 

[kingusama92]

Saqlain is not mentioned that much but he was a beast spinner. So easy for him to set-up a batter and get him out.

He was almost unplayable in the late 90s.

That version of Saqlain was an absolute genius of his time. I believe he was averaging 18-19 during that 3-4 year stretch just bamboozling everyone that came in front of him.

 

[BouncerGuy]

He was almost unplayable in the late 90s.

That version of Saqlain was an absolute genius of his time. I believe he was averaging 18-19 during that 3-4 year stretch just bamboozling everyone that came in front of him.

Yeah. He was a genuine match winner who can read the batter's mind.

 

[Mainul]

Is there a period when Waqar actually averaged below 25 against top 5 side of his era? I mean even with some cherry picked period? Waqar's in his peak ( debute till end of 1994 ) - Averaged 25+ taken together agaisnt the the top 5 sides ( Aus, WI, SA, Eng, Ind).

Waqar had zero new ball skills. He was so heavily reliant on inswinging yorkers that he literally couldn't take 5-fers agaisnt non-minnows after 1994 when he lost his pace. Can you name a single other bowler with lots of skill not able to take 5-fers in 40-50 tests against non-minnows? I don't think we can name any.
Waqar agaisnt non-minnows in 43 tests: Highly skillful bowlers don't play 40-50 tests with 1 5-fers. Skills will show up in results with a large sample size, right? He just had one things going for him and after losing pace, he was not able to pick 5-fers. If he knew how to use new ball then we would have seen lots of 5-fers despite him losing pace.There is literally no other great bowler with such a poor new ball skills.
View attachment 146251

Now about ODI, he was thrashed pretty big in ODI. Just take Donald and Waqar in ODI to make this point clear because Donald finished in 2003 as well. Donald ER was 4.15 and SR was 31. SR of near 30 means, donald was not going to pick even 2 wickets on average in 10 overs on ODI. Waqar had SR of 30 and at the same time he went with ER of 4.7 per over. Waqar was very expensive in ODI for his era. 200-220 used to be scores on those days. Being so expensive could have been justified if he was averaging 15 or SR was 15. 5 Waqar's bowling together will not bowl out sides most of the times but give 240 runs and that was a losing situation in his era. Also, in ODI your reputation is made in WC games. He was a non-entity in WC games as well.

Waqar was great for cricket with his inswinging yorker/reverse and treat to watch for 4-5 years in the test foramt. Let's appreciate him for that. He was not a great ODI bowler. He couldn't use new ball and that's a huge limitation for any pacer in the test format.

Waqar Younis had taken quiet a number of 4 fers , 28 times in tests. Sometimes you need luck to convert it to 5 fers. Another thing I think non DRS availability at that time made bowlers like him suffer more than any other bowler. I saw numerous times that a very close call of lbw were being denied after hitting pads from Waqar. Waqar used to bowl full letting it to do inswing and inswing yourker most of the time . As a result he was a strong contender to get batsman out lbw.

Yes he was more lethal with old balls than new. But telling he hadnt skill with new balls isnt doing justice to him. Look at the videos of Waqar bowling in 1992 and 1996 tour to England ,1993 tour to West Indies, 1994 tour of New Zealand,1998 tour to South Africa. These are all foreign tour. I watched all these tours live. Waqar was a treat to watch claiming wickets with old and new balls in tests.

Waqar was one of the finest strike bowler, arguably the best in ODI cricket history. His record,his numerous match winning performances tell it all. His numbers of tally of 4 and 5 wicket haul was fenomenal, the most by any bowler in cricket history. His strike rate in ODIs still the best among bowlers playing more than 250 ODIs. You need to be vigilant, energetic and a capable bowler to achieve this in such a long career.

 

[Mainul]

So , after watching cricket for 3 generation you come to the conclusion that Waqar is better than Bumrah? Looks like watching less cricket gives a better understanding of it. Try it, May be.

Let Bumrah play his whole career than dare to compare to Waqar.Still a long long long way to go to break Waqar's record.

Even if Bumrah surpasses Waqar (very unlikely) i wont compare him even to great like Waqar . Bumrah has such an ugly bowling action!! Any game is a visual act first. I like a bowler not only based on his record and stats but also on his bowling action or batting style, his aura , personality ,his presence in the field . Waqar had such a great bowling action. Running in with such a long run up, rhythmic fast run , beautiful slinging hostile action great follow through. And Bumrah... I just hate his action.