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Is 2-0 to England a formality?

Saj

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Early season in England.
Damp conditions.
No Misbah-ul-Haq or Younis Khan to steady the ship.
Undercooked squad.
Inexperienced batting line-up.
Recent struggles in Tests.

It has 2-0 to England written all over it, doesn't it?
 
Looking too much into the first game...these guys still have about a month to get things right. No amount of net sessions can substitute actual match practice.

I’m more worried about the bowling.
 
Dreadful start.

I keep repeating this is a Division Two county side that got bowled out for 64 recently. We were off the pace in both departments.
 
Not sure what all the hoopla is about.

Nearly half the side is playing their first Test outside Asia and has to make their debut.

This is their first practice match.

The Dream Team of the 92' Barcelona Olympics got beaten by a college team during practice.

We all know what occurred next. :smith
 
I'll be pleasantly surprised if we manage a draw. Anderson and Broad will wreak absolute havoc this early in the season.
 
They may well blank us 2-0, but what concerns me is the lack of any flair in the batting. I mean we have the likes of Sami Aslam, Azhar, Asad Shafiq and Babar - it's the quintessential tuk tuk brigade.
 
I don't think so. England aren't a great team either atm.
 
Bowlers might win a match, but only if our team can manage to score 200 LOL!! I think a score of 200 is achievable if Saad, Usman, Fakhar are in the team!!

If we persist with Sami and Asad we’d be lucky to score 40!!
 
Dreadful start.

I keep repeating this is a Division Two county side that got bowled out for 64 recently. We were off the pace in both departments.

It was the second game of the season and the highest score in that match was 153, you know what the conditions are like in this month so I wouldn't read too much into that score or the quality of division 2 which has produced excellent Test cricketers for England. However, Kent won their most recent game of the season by 8 wickets in another low scoring match where the highest inning total was 170
 
Over the top reactions.
Saj you have seen many PAK tours in ENG.
How well do PAK teams start and especially in practise matches?
 
Early season in England.
Damp conditions.
No Misbah-ul-Haq or Younis Khan to steady the ship.
Undercooked squad.
Inexperienced batting line-up.
Recent struggles in Tests.

It has 2-0 to England written all over it, doesn't it?

It is not a formality, they just arrived in the UK for crying out loud. This is like coming to a conclusion on the outcome of a boxing fight based on what happened during sparring. Pakistan will get better and give a decent account of themselves.
 
Remember the practice game before the NZ ODI series, and look what happened in the actual series after.

Remember the practice game before Australia tests where Amir and Rahat ripped through the top order and look what happened in the test series.

Practice games don’t indicate anything.
 
England have not won a test in a long time and have serious questions to answer in the batting order.
 
In bowler friendly conditions the more aggressive batsmen you have the better the team is bound to collapse if conditions favour bowlers a quick 40 of 50 balls can change the match but the line up is full of slow players and none averaging above 50.
Expect 12 (40) 18 (50) 5 (22) type of innings from the batsmen as their strokeplay is limited the bowlers need to perform at optimum levels unless the pitches flatten out.
 
England have not won a test in a long time and have serious questions to answer in the batting order.

A confidence boost might just be on the way unless the English batsmen are rattled by the Pakistani bowlers.
 
We've performed poorly in warm up's and done decently before, plus this is the first warm up match, there's 1 more to go then a test against Ireland. Still time to get acclimatized
 
One BIG problem I see and if PAK is to win, THIS has to be fixed - PAK's RR is dreadful, almost stagnant.

Early summer (actually Spring), most likely games will be low scoring - probably, neither team is capable of surviving 100 overs in any innings. In such situations, one needs to be positive and try to score quickly - probably scoring 220 in 60 overs is easier than scoring 200 in 80, because often in such conditions players restrict themselves in shell and then get one unplayable one.

In that regard, based on today's game, it might not be a bad idea of playing FZ, Imam and may be Saad (because he scored FC runs at ~75 SR this year), instead of Sami & Asad. Only Azhar is there to play the anchor, while Sarfraz can serve great if he can catch everything that comes his way (And a bit more than one shot 4 with bat), rest 5 can be Imam, Babar, Haris, FZ & Saad.

And, I am writing again - PAK has to play 6 batsmen + 4 pacers, with few overs from batsmen. Playing Sarfraz at 6 means last 5 of Shadab, Hasan, Amir, Rahat & Abbas.......................
 
They may well blank us 2-0, but what concerns me is the lack of any flair in the batting. I mean we have the likes of Sami Aslam, Azhar, Asad Shafiq and Babar - it's the quintessential tuk tuk brigade.

You don’t need flair in tests. Tuk tuk will take you a long way. Only Australia of Taylor Waugh and ponting brought forward run rates of 4 rpo into modern cricket but 2/3 rpo us quite acceptable. You have to make a test last 5 days
 
Not necessarily a formality given all the rain around England at the moment. Having said that, you'd need 4 days of rain to even manage a draw.
 
It seems like that atm but there is a long way to go. Azhar and Sami can bat in those conditions, Shafiq is superb when in form, Haris and Babar have good techniques vs pace. Let's wait and see and not write them off just yet.
 
They just beat saffers at home

That was last year before losing 5 out of the 7 winter Tests and winning none. That SA side also had Rabada and Faf missing a few Tests and no AB or Markham either.
 
On paper. Yes.

Going into the summer, England has the most proven English conditions gun batsman in the world (Root) and they have their army of all-rounders to support him.
Same goes for bowling with Broad/Anderson.

If England's big three hit their straps, Pak is going down 2-0 irrespective of how they play. Same goes for India, although they might win/draw a late season dead rubber game if Anderson is rested/injured.

Frankly both visiting sides in England have significantly weak batting lineups. I don't see any of Pak's batsmen being capable of playing defining inns. For India, Kohli-Rahane may come off 2-3 times if conditions are in their favour but unlikely to do so enough times over 5 tests.
 
It will take a huge effort from Pakistan to upset England. Really very very big effort.
 
Early season in England.
Damp conditions.
No Misbah-ul-Haq or Younis Khan to steady the ship.
Undercooked squad.
Inexperienced batting line-up.
Recent struggles in Tests.

It has 2-0 to England written all over it, doesn't it?
Younis and Misbah did not "steady the ship" in England in 2016 - they came awfully close to sinking it.

Test teams can't afford to carry geriatric batsmen who go big once per series and fail the rest of the time - as England are currently discovering with Alastair Cook.

Test teams need their batsmen to consistently survive 25 overs MINIMUM at the crease so that the bowlers tire and partnerships build.

By 2016, Younis and Misbah could not consistently deliver that.

Misbah hit a century in the First Test when England were missing Jimmy Anderson and Ben Stokes - then only scored 168 runs in the last 3 Tests.

Younis was even worse: he hit a masterful 218 in his final innings but in the first 3 Tests he only scored 132 runs.

No Test team can compete when its number 4 and 5 batsmen can't reliably survive 25 overs when they go to the crease.

Misbah and Younis were has-beens outside Asia by 2016. If Pakistan had selected Babar Azam sooner and to be honest if they'd persisted with Umar Akmal seven years ago instead of letting him become a limited overs circus freak, they would be going into this series with two twenty-something batsmen who were proven international performers.

Instead they have Babar Azam playing his first Tests in the British Isles along with Haris Sohail, who may not be technically suited to play outside Asia.
 
One BIG problem I see and if PAK is to win, THIS has to be fixed - PAK's RR is dreadful, almost stagnant.

Early summer (actually Spring), most likely games will be low scoring - probably, neither team is capable of surviving 100 overs in any innings. In such situations, one needs to be positive and try to score quickly - probably scoring 220 in 60 overs is easier than scoring 200 in 80, because often in such conditions players restrict themselves in shell and then get one unplayable one.

In that regard, based on today's game, it might not be a bad idea of playing FZ, Imam and may be Saad (because he scored FC runs at ~75 SR this year), instead of Sami & Asad. Only Azhar is there to play the anchor, while Sarfraz can serve great if he can catch everything that comes his way (And a bit more than one shot 4 with bat), rest 5 can be Imam, Babar, Haris, FZ & Saad.

And, I am writing again - PAK has to play 6 batsmen + 4 pacers, with few overs from batsmen. Playing Sarfraz at 6 means last 5 of Shadab, Hasan, Amir, Rahat & Abbas.......................

I agree with your thought process as a whole, however, let me add a bit of nuance to it and make the execution a bit more complex.

Let me state first what I agree with: Early english conditions means you'll get a ball with your name on it sooner rather than later . . its very similar to playing in India on those square turners. You can try and survive, but you'll get a ball sooner rather than later that will get you out, and if you play a 100 balls for 20 runs, it doesn't really help the team as opposed to 40 of 70.

However, here's the catch 22 situation. In order to score quickly, you need to have both "technique" AND "smarts/brain"! Unfortunately, I don't see any Pakistani batsman with both . .

As we have already established, you'll get a ball that has your name on it . . and in england, you're mostly concerned about the cordon . . keeper and 4/5 player slip/gully cordon . .

Now, keeping our batsmen in mind, scoring fast for them means playing those beautiful cover drives and square drives (and playing on the merit of the ball) . . and those are exactly the kinds of shots that will get you out before you know when you've got experts like James Anderson operating! So even if you're "technically" proficient on those shots, you'll get out playing those . .

What I am trying to get to is . . thats where being smart comes into play . . The only way you can score fast in England is to make the bowlers ball to you . . there are 3 ways to do it: The Azhar Ali way . . which is to tire them by consistently being disciplined outside off and feasting on anything on middle and leg and/or wait for a half volley . . and that style isn't very fast as we all know . . the other way is the Sarfaraz way: You throw the bowlers off their length by shuffling, playing a few weird strokes . . (btw, sarfaraz averaged 32 in the last series . . which wasn't all too bad and ill take taht from all our batsman in this series) . . and the 3rd way is find a middle ground . . which means, be a GREAT judge of length and MOST importantly determine what strokes NOT to play and yet make the bowlers bowl to you . .

Keeping the above in mind . . I put Sarfaraz, Fakhar in the same domain (Sarfaraz way of batting) . . Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq and Sami Aslam in one domain (Azhar Ali Way of batting) . . Babar, Harris, Imam, etc in one domain . . (The traditional way of batting) . . Unfortunately, I don't see anyone who can find the brains to be technically proficient and smart at the same time!

For Pakistan, they need to target 300 in each of the 3 first innings they play . . if they can somehow get to 300, they will keep themselves in the game.

Hope my explanation makes sense.
 
Fans once again getting overly optimistic before a tour.

We lost a recently home series to srilanka, got pummeled in new zeland.

Early summer in England means the two test matches won't last more than 3/4 days

The batting won't score 200
 
Even with our batsmen in the past, they never started well early season.

Could well be 2-0 to England, but I have a bit of hope for Safraz's leadership skills.
 
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Even with our batsmen in the past, they never started well early season.

Could well be 2-0 to England, but I have a bit of hope for Safraz's leadership skills.

These guys have been in ENG for like 5 days and weather is like October!

Every single asian team would struggle early on. Its a fact, look at the history.

Pak in 2001 has mega star line up but got smashed in 1st and if I am not wrong even had to FO. Came back well 2nd test.

Give m break!
 
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I agree it is a formality. I think Joe Root will register a hundred finally now and we might also see their pace bowlers rattling Pakistan at low score.

2-0 is there to be taken for England. However, no shame in that for Pakistan because they recently lost two world class batsmen who played pivotal role in the 2016 series.

I am more interested in India's series in England. They have the batsmen, bowlers and everything to emerge victorious in that series or atleast come up with the draw.
 
Can't see anything other than a 2-0 to England but if Pakistan can eke out a win from somewhere, it will be a massive boost to this Pakistan test team which desperately requires a big confidence build up for the future. If Pakistan gets smashed by an innings in both Tests, I fear for them in SA later in the year.
 
If our batsmen don't perform, it will be an easy win for England unfortunately.
 
There is always a chance at places like Eng and SA to nick a game due to sporting wickets.
 
You don’t need flair in tests. Tuk tuk will take you a long way. Only Australia of Taylor Waugh and ponting brought forward run rates of 4 rpo into modern cricket but 2/3 rpo us quite acceptable. You have to make a test last 5 days

Perhaps, but I'm merely speaking from a spectator's point of view. I'm not asking for 4 rpo but at least try not to put the fans to sleep. I understand you sometimes have to dig deep and grind it out, but you need to show intent as well if you're looking for a result. Tuk tuk for the sake of tuk tuk isn't going to get you anywhere either.
 
I just feel there are too many newbies for one series in the squad and that could backfire.
 
I agree with your thought process as a whole, however, let me add a bit of nuance to it and make the execution a bit more complex.

Let me state first what I agree with: Early english conditions means you'll get a ball with your name on it sooner rather than later . . its very similar to playing in India on those square turners. You can try and survive, but you'll get a ball sooner rather than later that will get you out, and if you play a 100 balls for 20 runs, it doesn't really help the team as opposed to 40 of 70.

However, here's the catch 22 situation. In order to score quickly, you need to have both "technique" AND "smarts/brain"! Unfortunately, I don't see any Pakistani batsman with both . .

As we have already established, you'll get a ball that has your name on it . . and in england, you're mostly concerned about the cordon . . keeper and 4/5 player slip/gully cordon . .

Now, keeping our batsmen in mind, scoring fast for them means playing those beautiful cover drives and square drives (and playing on the merit of the ball) . . and those are exactly the kinds of shots that will get you out before you know when you've got experts like James Anderson operating! So even if you're "technically" proficient on those shots, you'll get out playing those . .

What I am trying to get to is . . thats where being smart comes into play . . The only way you can score fast in England is to make the bowlers ball to you . . there are 3 ways to do it: The Azhar Ali way . . which is to tire them by consistently being disciplined outside off and feasting on anything on middle and leg and/or wait for a half volley . . and that style isn't very fast as we all know . . the other way is the Sarfaraz way: You throw the bowlers off their length by shuffling, playing a few weird strokes . . (btw, sarfaraz averaged 32 in the last series . . which wasn't all too bad and ill take taht from all our batsman in this series) . . and the 3rd way is find a middle ground . . which means, be a GREAT judge of length and MOST importantly determine what strokes NOT to play and yet make the bowlers bowl to you . .

Keeping the above in mind . . I put Sarfaraz, Fakhar in the same domain (Sarfaraz way of batting) . . Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq and Sami Aslam in one domain (Azhar Ali Way of batting) . . Babar, Harris, Imam, etc in one domain . . (The traditional way of batting) . . Unfortunately, I don't see anyone who can find the brains to be technically proficient and smart at the same time!

For Pakistan, they need to target 300 in each of the 3 first innings they play . . if they can somehow get to 300, they will keep themselves in the game.

Hope my explanation makes sense.

There is difference between cautious batsman and limited batsman.

About 16 years back, Hayden scored a 7 hours hundred in UAE under scorching sun - his first 50 came probably around tea, on a difficult wicket. Similar time, IND played a Test at Leeds & day 1 under extremely difficult condition, ended 220/2 or so - next day sun came out and they declared 600+ for 6 or so in 5 hours - that’s around 400 in 75 overs or so.

Problem for PAK batting is single gear - looking at them, you can’t tell if batsman is on 20 or 200. And, this has nothing to do with condition or opponent, rather extremely limited shot making ability. Any given time, teams can simply tie PAK batting and eventually a desperate release shot ends the Innings.

These are Misbah generation batsmen groomed on absolute garbage domestic wickets without any pace, bounce or carry - zero flair, back lift or crispy hitting ability and no squire of the wicket shots.

This has to be fixed. What you wrote is numbers - obviously if PAK batsmen can put 300+ in 1st innings, in similar conditions, Poms will be chasing the game. I am trying to figure out a way to do something close to that - which batsmen has the best chance to score some runs, otherwise 2.2 runrate won’t benifit much after lunch. For morning session I understand, hence Azhar is allowed his way, but others have to speed up. This is one reason I do support Babar despite his Test average - among several Azhar clone, he one guy who has the shot making ability; but he is unable to concentrate for more than a session because of being groomed in QeA style - a quick fire 50 in 90 minutes is a matching winner there. In India, batsmen take 90 minutes to warm up in FC games.
 
They may well blank us 2-0, but what concerns me is the lack of any flair in the batting. I mean we have the likes of Sami Aslam, Azhar, Asad Shafiq and Babar - it's the quintessential tuk tuk brigade.

Its a test match, its about getting runs, not how you look while getting them.
 
Pakistan have lost 2 big players in the test format but again the biggest issue for Pakistan is that Azhar and Asad aren't taking up the senior players mantle. Pakistan have invested a lot in these two and they would need them to guide this young team. Babar and others will surely have a struggle against Anderson, Broad, Woakes etc under these conditions. It will be a learning experience for them.
 
Yes, it does appear to be a foregone conclusion. We got lucky in 2016 because we played on grassless wickets. Moreover, Stokes only played 1 Test, and Anderson was not fully fit. I don't recall the list time a touring team had such easy conditions in England.

That was a series that we should have won, but we crumbled under pressure (as usual) in Edgbaston.

Our Test team is pretty rubbish. Not a single world class batsman that can be viewed as a threat by the opposition, and the bowling attack looks pretty humbling on paper. People like to sing songs about Azhar, but the fact is that he is nothing more than a decent batsman.

He has zero impact on the game, his body language and style of play do not make the opposition uneasy, and he is not able to put the bowlers under pressure even if he has been out there for hours because he has zero shots in his arsenal.

He is to the current Test team what Misbah was to the ODI team previously - a deaf king among blind men, and the fact that he is our premier Test batsman at the moment reflects our horrid batting standards.

The only difference between him and duds like Sami, Masood, Shafiq etc. is that he is able to last around a 100 deliveries more on average. You can tie him down on one end and get the others out, and he won't be able to kill a fly.

Pakistan badly needs a couple of batsmen with 50/50 stats, because someone like Azhar - a 45/40 batsman - is not good enough to lead the batting unit. He is a very good support batsman, but you need a lot more from your premier batsman.

As far as the absence of Younis is concerned, as [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] rightfully pointed out, he came agonizingly close to sinking the ship in 2016 on grassless wickets. In fact, I would argue that he was one of the major reasons why went to the Oval Test 2-1 down, rather than 2-1 up or at worst, 1-1.

One good innings by him at Edgbaston would have ensured a win/draw, but he needed 7 innings on flat wickets to get his act together.

He has always been worthless on green pitches, and his magnificent average of 4 in NZ in 2016 shows his capability on green pitches. If he was still playing, he would have been the biggest bunny of English bowlers on this tour.

Pakistan will need a miracle to salvage anything from this tour. England is not great, but they are comfortably better than Pakistan in these conditions.
 
People should not be too harsh on these lads. Besides Azhar, there is no world-class Test batsman in our line-up. It'll take a while for us to develop a good batting line-up. Misbah and YK are a huge miss.
 
It's going to be tough. Sarfraz will be tested. Azhar, Asad, and Babar are going to have to do all the heavy lifting and its about time these boys turn in to men.

Bowling will depend on Amir and Hassan...a test career determining series for Amir.
 
It's a strange world where 1 or 2 batsmen are responsible for the other 4 or 5 babies in the lineup not making enough runs.

It's also a strange world where YK scores a double hundred, evoking gushing praise by the English media, and wins a Test match to square a series no one would've thought we could.

I wonder if it's only Pakistanis rate their own match winners abroad with this kind of contempt.

And finally, I wonder if Amir will be responsible for the other three bowlers if they do badly.

2-0 is a formality, but the serious threat is 0-1 to Ireland. Pakistan should win, but should doesn't promise will.

Let's not forget that Pakistan had a month to train last time, were last better prepared for an away tour than I can recall. And the conditions in 2-3 Tests were almost a gift.

This time after being trampled by a second division second XI on a single day of match practice, before playing Ireland who will be a lot more prepared than us.
 
9,000+ runs?

The way some go on it's as if we produce batsmen of his calibre every week.

It's only now after losing to SL and getting castled by Kent for 168 that people realise the hole that's been left.
 
Yes, it does appear to be a foregone conclusion. We got lucky in 2016 because we played on grassless wickets. Moreover, Stokes only played 1 Test, and Anderson was not fully fit. I don't recall the list time a touring team had such easy conditions in England.

That was a series that we should have won, but we crumbled under pressure (as usual) in Edgbaston.

Our Test team is pretty rubbish. Not a single world class batsman that can be viewed as a threat by the opposition, and the bowling attack looks pretty humbling on paper. People like to sing songs about Azhar, but the fact is that he is nothing more than a decent batsman.

He has zero impact on the game, his body language and style of play do not make the opposition uneasy, and he is not able to put the bowlers under pressure even if he has been out there for hours because he has zero shots in his arsenal.

He is to the current Test team what Misbah was to the ODI team previously - a deaf king among blind men, and the fact that he is our premier Test batsman at the moment reflects our horrid batting standards.

The only difference between him and duds like Sami, Masood, Shafiq etc. is that he is able to last around a 100 deliveries more on average. You can tie him down on one end and get the others out, and he won't be able to kill a fly.

Pakistan badly needs a couple of batsmen with 50/50 stats, because someone like Azhar - a 45/40 batsman - is not good enough to lead the batting unit. He is a very good support batsman, but you need a lot more from your premier batsman.

As far as the absence of Younis is concerned, as [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] rightfully pointed out, he came agonizingly close to sinking the ship in 2016 on grassless wickets. In fact, I would argue that he was one of the major reasons why went to the Oval Test 2-1 down, rather than 2-1 up or at worst, 1-1.

One good innings by him at Edgbaston would have ensured a win/draw, but he needed 7 innings on flat wickets to get his act together.

He has always been worthless on green pitches, and his magnificent average of 4 in NZ in 2016 shows his capability on green pitches. If he was still playing, he would have been the biggest bunny of English bowlers on this tour.

Pakistan will need a miracle to salvage anything from this tour. England is not great, but they are comfortably better than Pakistan in these conditions.

India your favourite team also played on some decent batting wickets but were hammered 5-0. Now if your team wins in England later on in the summer, will you also see their win as lucky?


On topic.

There will be swing up front with the new ball which will make life difficult for both batting teams but England batsmen should play swing better.

I think for Pakistan to avoid a 2-0 one or more of the bowlers will have to run through England so they have a very low score.
 
Yes, it does appear to be a foregone conclusion. We got lucky in 2016 because we played on grassless wickets. Moreover, Stokes only played 1 Test, and Anderson was not fully fit. I don't recall the list time a touring team had such easy conditions in England.

That was a series that we should have won, but we crumbled under pressure (as usual) in Edgbaston.

Our Test team is pretty rubbish. Not a single world class batsman that can be viewed as a threat by the opposition, and the bowling attack looks pretty humbling on paper. People like to sing songs about Azhar, but the fact is that he is nothing more than a decent batsman.

He has zero impact on the game, his body language and style of play do not make the opposition uneasy, and he is not able to put the bowlers under pressure even if he has been out there for hours because he has zero shots in his arsenal.

He is to the current Test team what Misbah was to the ODI team previously - a deaf king among blind men, and the fact that he is our premier Test batsman at the moment reflects our horrid batting standards.

The only difference between him and duds like Sami, Masood, Shafiq etc. is that he is able to last around a 100 deliveries more on average. You can tie him down on one end and get the others out, and he won't be able to kill a fly.

Pakistan badly needs a couple of batsmen with 50/50 stats, because someone like Azhar - a 45/40 batsman - is not good enough to lead the batting unit. He is a very good support batsman, but you need a lot more from your premier batsman.

<B>As far as the absence of Younis is concerned, as [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] rightfully pointed out, he came agonizingly close to sinking the ship in 2016 on grassless wickets. In fact, I would argue that he was one of the major reasons why went to the Oval Test 2-1 down, rather than 2-1 up or at worst, 1-1.</B>

One good innings by him at Edgbaston would have ensured a win/draw, but he needed 7 innings on flat wickets to get his act together.

He has always been worthless on green pitches, and his magnificent average of 4 in NZ in 2016 shows his capability on green pitches. If he was still playing, he would have been the biggest bunny of English bowlers on this tour.

Pakistan will need a miracle to salvage anything from this tour. England is not great, but they are comfortably better than Pakistan in these conditions.

Rubbish. Younis is a great of the game as far as tests are concerned. You are disrespecting the player.

On his last legs when he was 38, he played a sublime inning of high quality in Oval and drew the series just when mattered.

In comparison to that, players like Amla and Cook are failing over a complete series of 4-5 tests with literally no performance to show up now that they are on last leg. We just saw their performance against Australia and at the moment they are 33-34 only.

The way Younis carried the team over the years is worth appreciating, he ensured that the Pakistani team was still able to compete and win matches against the top teams of his era by being their single biggest force in tests and it is disheartening to see fans not giving him respect for that.
 
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Yes, it does appear to be a foregone conclusion. We got lucky in 2016 because we played on grassless wickets. Moreover, Stokes only played 1 Test, and Anderson was not fully fit. I don't recall the list time a touring team had such easy conditions in England.

That was a series that we should have won, but we crumbled under pressure (as usual) in Edgbaston.

Our Test team is pretty rubbish. Not a single world class batsman that can be viewed as a threat by the opposition, and the bowling attack looks pretty humbling on paper. People like to sing songs about Azhar, but the fact is that he is nothing more than a decent batsman.

He has zero impact on the game, his body language and style of play do not make the opposition uneasy, and he is not able to put the bowlers under pressure even if he has been out there for hours because he has zero shots in his arsenal.

He is to the current Test team what Misbah was to the ODI team previously - a deaf king among blind men, and the fact that he is our premier Test batsman at the moment reflects our horrid batting standards.

The only difference between him and duds like Sami, Masood, Shafiq etc. is that he is able to last around a 100 deliveries more on average. You can tie him down on one end and get the others out, and he won't be able to kill a fly.

Pakistan badly needs a couple of batsmen with 50/50 stats, because someone like Azhar - a 45/40 batsman - is not good enough to lead the batting unit. He is a very good support batsman, but you need a lot more from your premier batsman.

As far as the absence of Younis is concerned, as [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] rightfully pointed out, he came agonizingly close to sinking the ship in 2016 on grassless wickets. In fact, I would argue that he was one of the major reasons why went to the Oval Test 2-1 down, rather than 2-1 up or at worst, 1-1.

One good innings by him at Edgbaston would have ensured a win/draw, but he needed 7 innings on flat wickets to get his act together.

He has always been worthless on green pitches, and his magnificent average of 4 in NZ in 2016 shows his capability on green pitches. If he was still playing, he would have been the biggest bunny of English bowlers on this tour.

Pakistan will need a miracle to salvage anything from this tour. England is not great, but they are comfortably better than Pakistan in these conditions.

How exactly is it lucky? You can only play on the pitch you're provided. And just cos Stoke missed some of the tests and Anderson wasn't fit, you can't say that England are easy to beat even without them. Good teams are not reliant on 1-2 players. We done very well in that tour, and any nation would take a 2-2 draw in England.
 
I don't think so.

I was expecting pak to get whitewashed the last time they toured Eng. But they surprised me with their performance.
 
How exactly is it lucky? You can only play on the pitch you're provided. And just cos Stoke missed some of the tests and Anderson wasn't fit, you can't say that England are easy to beat even without them. Good teams are not reliant on 1-2 players. We done very well in that tour, and any nation would take a 2-2 draw in England.

Anderson was so unfit he had England's second best bowling average in that series...
 
Anderson was so unfit he had England's second best bowling average in that series...

Exactly. No matter who you support, you have to respect Pakistan for coming out of that series with a 2-2 draw which I was delighted with!
 
Exactly. No matter who you support, you have to respect Pakistan for coming out of that series with a 2-2 draw which I was delighted with!

I thought Younis Khan was finished.

Still had that double hundred left in the tank.
 
The young team will do fine, I have faith in these guys. Best players of fast bowling (swing/seam) in the country are selected or name me which Kane Williamsons and Shai Hopes are waiting in domestic? Give the kids some time. They will come good.

But yes, Shafiq should be dropped permanently. 7 years of investment for nothing. Usman/Saad should make the team.
 
The young team will do fine, I have faith in these guys. Best players of fast bowling (swing/seam) in the country are selected or name me which Kane Williamsons and Shai Hopes are waiting in domestic? Give the kids some time. They will come good.

But yes, Shafiq should be dropped permanently. 7 years of investment for nothing. Usman/Saad should make the team.

Shafiq is Sarfraz best friend and PCB golden boy. He ain't going anywhere .
 
I'm backing the bowlers to run through England at least a couple of times,
Hopefully it happens in the same game.

Just want to see some fight. We shouldn't expect too much nut I'm going 1-1

We could lose to Ireland though as that game is too early into the tour
 
Shafiq is Sarfraz best friend and PCB golden boy. He ain't going anywhere .

Wahab, Azhar, and Annu are also his best friends but Wahab and Annu are booted out. Plus i dont think he is Golden boy. He is just keeping a place because he is the only 'senior' batsman in middle order. Once we win few series, he will be gone like Hafeez in odis ;)
 
Wahab, Azhar, and Annu are also his best friends but Wahab and Annu are booted out. Plus i dont think he is Golden boy. He is just keeping a place because he is the only 'senior' batsman in middle order. Once we win few series, he will be gone like Hafeez in odis ;)


Wahab was booted out was because he was rubbish. Azhar hasn't been booted out yet. He was selected vs NZ. We need to see the next ODI squad before assuming he's been dropped.

If he gets his usual one score a series, he will remain in the team.

Let's see if Hafeez has been booted out when the next ODI squad is selected. If he passes his bowling test , don't be surprised if Inzi selects him.
 
Wahab was booted out was because he was rubbish. Azhar hasn't been booted out yet. He was selected vs NZ. We need to see the next ODI squad before assuming he's been dropped.

If he gets his usual one score a series, he will remain in the team.

Let's see if Hafeez has been booted out when the next ODI squad is selected. If he passes his bowling test , don't be surprised if Inzi selects him.

Shafiq is rubbish for last 7 years and never dropped by the one whose name shouldn't be mentioned wrna logun ko bura lag jata hai ;). Plus Sarfraz has led only in one series its dfficult for him and Mickey to drop Asad now as he is the only senior middle order batsman we have now.. Knowing Arthur and Sarfi, I am pretty sure if he continues to be rubbish he will be dropped by the end of this year..
 
India your favourite team also played on some decent batting wickets but were hammered 5-0. Now if your team wins in England later on in the summer, will you also see their win as lucky?


On topic.

There will be swing up front with the new ball which will make life difficult for both batting teams but England batsmen should play swing better.

I think for Pakistan to avoid a 2-0 one or more of the bowlers will have to run through England so they have a very low score.

India lost 3-1, not 5-0. Interestingly enough, they won the only Test that was played on a green pitch. The reason why they lost three consecutive Tests on relatively flat pitches was because Kohli had the worst series of his career, and India inexplicably gave Moeen 19 wickets. A spinner as mediocre as him should not be taking 19 wickets against a team like India.

However, this time India would be returning as a much better team. England today are not much better than the one Pakistan faced in 2016, although they should have Stokes available for all games and a fully fit Anderson. On the other hand, this Indian side is superior to the one Pakistan had in that English summer.

Also, Kohli will score runs and Moeen will probably struggle. If India don't push England very close - or don't win a couple of tests if not the series - they should be extremely disappointed with themselves.
 
Rubbish. Younis is a great of the game as far as tests are concerned. You are disrespecting the player.

On his last legs when he was 38, he played a sublime inning of high quality in Oval and drew the series just when mattered.

In comparison to that, players like Amla and Cook are failing over a complete series of 4-5 tests with literally no performance to show up now that they are on last leg. We just saw their performance against Australia and at the moment they are 33-34 only.

The way Younis carried the team over the years is worth appreciating, he ensured that the Pakistani team was still able to compete and win matches against the top teams of his era by being their single biggest force in tests and it is disheartening to see fans not giving him respect for that.

No matter how you spin it, the fact is that Younis completely failed in 6 consecutive innings in England, and was the major reason why Pakistan did not go into the Oval Test 2-1 up or at worst, 1-1. Yes he played a sublime match-winning knock where Cook allowed him to settle early by letting Moeen bowl pies to him first up with a defensive field, but he had a poor series overall.

This "on his last legs" theory does not hold much water, because he had his most prolific season in 2014-2015. He didn't lost his touch overnight, and although he retired last year because of not getting the captaincy, he is still good enough to score heavily in the UAE for a couple of more seasons. Even today, he is by far the best Pakistani Test batsman at the moment.

He was no better in the England series than Cook was in the recent Ashes. Both completely failed barring one innings, but Younis gets more credit than Cook because his team outplayed the opposition without his contribution.
 
How exactly is it lucky? You can only play on the pitch you're provided. And just cos Stoke missed some of the tests and Anderson wasn't fit, you can't say that England are easy to beat even without them. Good teams are not reliant on 1-2 players. We done very well in that tour, and any nation would take a 2-2 draw in England.

Yes you can only play on the pitch that is provided to you, but we got lucky because they were provided placid pitches. Few months later, the same team got thrashed in NZ on green pitches. Every team in the world be weaker without their main players. Apart from Root, Anderson and Stokes are England's most important players. England without them at their best is a much weaker side.
 
No matter how you spin it, the fact is that Younis completely failed in 6 consecutive innings in England, and was the major reason why Pakistan did not go into the Oval Test 2-1 up or at worst, 1-1. Yes he played a sublime match-winning knock where Cook allowed him to settle early by letting Moeen bowl pies to him first up with a defensive field, but he had a poor series overall.

This "on his last legs" theory does not hold much water, because he had his most prolific season in 2014-2015. He didn't lost his touch overnight, and although he retired last year because of not getting the captaincy, he is still good enough to score heavily in the UAE for a couple of more seasons. Even today, he is by far the best Pakistani Test batsman at the moment.

<B>He was no better in the England series than Cook was in the recent Ashes. Both completely failed barring one innings, but Younis gets more credit than Cook because his team outplayed the opposition without his contribution.</B>

Bhai, say whatever but this is a very poor analogy. Scoring a double hundred when the series is not just active but also turning the game on its head is far different to scoring runs when the series is already done and the rest is a formality.

Now I know you will say that if Pakistan had lost the Lords test, it would have been a dead rubber inning but the fact that the YK inning came out in what was the most precarious situation of the match as well as the series makes it special.

Do you think Australians would have let Cook to play such kind of inning if the series was alive and was in such kind of situation where that inning could have made a difference?

There is a huge difference in performing in dead rubber and showing up on such occasion which couldnt have been better than that, irrespective of how much a batsmen is struggling.
 
Yes you can only play on the pitch that is provided to you, but we got lucky because they were provided placid pitches. Few months later, the same team got thrashed in NZ on green pitches. Every team in the world be weaker without their main players. Apart from Root, Anderson and Stokes are England's most important players. England without them at their best is a much weaker side.

Yes the pitches were suited to us but England in England are still very hard to beat, they win the majority of their series at home and we managed to beat them in 2 tests which is a great achievement. Did we get lucky also that Younis Khan played an amazing innings in the 4th test? Did we get lucky in the first match when Yasir Shah outfoxed the English batsmen? A 2-2 draw in England for an Asian team is a great achievement, yet here you are focusing on the negative side of things, very well.
 
Anything better than 2-0 would be an achievement.

A Test team in turmoil, 2 wins out of 11 with 9 losses, a batting line-up that looks very weak and a bowling attack that really needs to start showing some form.
 
Bhai, say whatever but this is a very poor analogy. Scoring a double hundred when the series is not just active but also turning the game on its head is far different to scoring runs when the series is already done and the rest is a formality.

Now I know you will say that if Pakistan had lost the Lords test, it would have been a dead rubber inning but the fact that the YK inning came out in what was the most precarious situation of the match as well as the series makes it special.

Do you think Australians would have let Cook to play such kind of inning if the series was alive and was in such kind of situation where that inning could have made a difference?

There is a huge difference in performing in dead rubber and showing up on such occasion which couldnt have been better than that, irrespective of how much a batsmen is struggling.

Younis had nothing to do with the series being active heading into the fourth Test. Pakistan could easily have been 3-0 down at that point, because Younis had zero contribution to the wins at Lord's and Edgbaston. He did not fail in the first three Tests because he knew that he would score a match-winning double-hundred in the fourth Test.

If it was a three match series, his double-hundred would not have come in the third Test; if it was a two match series, his double-hundred would not have come in the second Test.

Similarly, had the other England players should up, Cook's double-hundred at Melbourne could have come in a situation where England were only one Test down or level with Australia. However, unlike Younis, he did not have the luxury of his teammates carrying him to wins in the other matches.

It is not about Australian letting him score if the series was alive etc., players of the calibre and experience of Cook and Younis will eventually score big after failing for a few games. Players like them know how to make it count when things go their way after a string of low scores.

In Melbourne, Cook was helped by the absence of Starc, who had troubled him considerably in the series. He was able to get into his grove and capitalized. At the Oval, Younis was helped by the fact that he got to face Moeen early in his innings, allowing him to settle at the crease - a set Younis is as dangerous as any batsman.

It was Younis' good fortune that the series was alive going into the fourth Tests, because considering how pathetic he was, he fully deserved to have lost all three games at an individual level. Pakistan were playing with ten men.

Had the other players not showed up, his Oval knock would have been a dead rubber effort like his Sydney 170 and Cook's Melbourne 244.

He flopped in that series because failing completely for the first three Tests in a four match series is not acceptable, and that is why Misbah won the MoS Award for Pakistan. His hundred on the opening day at Lord's set the tone of the series, and showed that Pakistan were up for the challenge.

It was by far the most important knock of the series, especially when Pakistan were struggling at 70/3 when he arrived at the crease. Without his innings, we could have been all out for 200 and the complexion of the series would have been completely different. Although he tailed off after that game, he left a bigger impression on the series than Younis.
 
India lost 3-1, not 5-0. Interestingly enough, they won the only Test that was played on a green pitch. The reason why they lost three consecutive Tests on relatively flat pitches was because Kohli had the worst series of his career, and India inexplicably gave Moeen 19 wickets. A spinner as mediocre as him should not be taking 19 wickets against a team like India.

However, this time India would be returning as a much better team. England today are not much better than the one Pakistan faced in 2016, although they should have Stokes available for all games and a fully fit Anderson. On the other hand, this Indian side is superior to the one Pakistan had in that English summer.

Also, Kohli will score runs and Moeen will probably struggle. If India don't push England very close - or don't win a couple of tests if not the series - they should be extremely disappointed with themselves.

I asked you a simple question. I have my own views on cricket as I;'ve probably watched much more than you and played more than you.

You said Pakistan were lucky to find themselves in such conditions which saw them win two tests. If India find similar conditions and win two tests will they also be lucky? Your team India is scared to play Pakistan so we dont know who is the better team, India being better is simply your opinion.
 
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