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Is Jasprit Bumrah a better bowler than Mohammad Asif and Mohammad Amir?

Asif was a trundler. His max speed was 78 to 80. Shouldn't even be in the discussion. He hardly played LOIs too.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
Asif was a trundler. His max speed was 78 to 80. Shouldn't even be in the discussion. He hardly played LOIs too.
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Does less speed mean he is bad? By your logic, McGrath shouldn't be in discussion too since he didn't have much pace.
 
Swashbuckler said:
You can call Bumrah overrated in ODIs and T20s, even a choker. But tests, come on now, you have to be very very biased to undermine his test creds. He is matching Malcolm Marshall at this stage of his career, and Marshall is supposed to be the undisputed GOAT.
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But Malcolm soiled his pajama in the only WC final he played against India in 1983. So how's he the GOAT but Bumrah is a choker?
 
Asifs skill set and quality is second to none. He made the best of his era look ordinary.

Sir jimmy and broady should thank Asif forever for the wobble seam delivery. Otherwise it was a case of both being one trick ponies .
 
aboveandbeyond said:
Asifs skill set and quality is second to none. He made the best of his era look ordinary.

Sir jimmy and broady should thank Asif forever for the wobble seam delivery. Otherwise it was a case of both being one trick ponies .
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What happened to those skills when he avgd 35 in Australia, 42 in Pakistan and 29 in England?

Its an insult to a great like Anderson to be compared to Asif.
 
NishanKonar said:
To be fair his action looked very awkward in the initial days. Has refined it immensely after 2017 !
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Not exactly.

Bumrah made it very clear that he wanted to play tests. Apparently the selectors told him he will only be considered for white ball cricket.

That's why he didn't make his test debut for nearly 3 years.
 
Ab Fan said:
Yes he is.

Extremely skillful bowler who is excellent in all conditions against any opponent and a genuine match winner.

Amir is not even half as good as him. Pathan is same level as Amir in Tests, he won the memorable test match at Perth in 2007, player of match in WT20 2007 final, took hatrick vs Pakistan and several other memorable games too.

Asif was a superb bowler but he barely played 20 tests which is not enough to rate anyone as a great of the game. He was a "could have been great" case.
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Amir could have been better than Bumrah but down to his own mistakes he isn't.
 
Due to Bumrah's ugly and awkward action it's sometimes difficult to pick the angle at which ball comes. It's clearly an unsustainable action and another injury is waiting to happen soon
 
Ahmed216 said:
Due to Bumrah's ugly and awkward action it's sometimes difficult to pick the angle at which ball comes. It's clearly an unsustainable action and another injury is waiting to happen soon
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His release point is later and that gives less time for batsman to react. His action is surely hard to maintain.
 
sweep_shot said:
Why did India care about 1983 World Cup for so many years then?

World Cups of course mattered.
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Actually in 1983 most Indians did not care about the World Cup. Remember those days very few Indians had tv sets. Those cricketers got no rewards. In fact the govt organized a Kishore Kumar concert to raise money to reward the players

The 1983 World Cup win became big more in retrospect from the 90s onwards
 
NishanKonar said:
Actually in 1983 most Indians did not care about the World Cup. Remember those days very few Indians had tv sets. Those cricketers got no rewards. In fact the govt organized a Kishore Kumar concert to raise money to reward the players

The 1983 World Cup win became big more in retrospect from the 90s onwards
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Disagree dude.lol That was massively celebrated all across India. You could even hear Sachin account.
 
NishanKonar said:
Actually in 1983 most Indians did not care about the World Cup. Remember those days very few Indians had tv sets. Those cricketers got no rewards. In fact the govt organized a Kishore Kumar concert to raise money to reward the players

The 1983 World Cup win became big more in retrospect from the 90s onwards
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Every Indian player received Rs. 25,000 each, and it was announced after India's innings in the final, even before India won the match. Kris Srikanth himself has said it. He also said that Rs. 25,000 back then for an Indian player would be like a couple of crores for today's players.
 
Why is it always hypotheticals with Pakistani players.
More talented, coulda, woulda and shoulda.
Where was Asif's genius in Australia or in his own backyard.
 
Hitman said:
Every Indian player received Rs. 25,000 each, and it was announced after India's innings in the final, even before India won the match. Kris Srikanth himself has said it. He also said that Rs. 25,000 back then for an Indian player would be like a couple of crores for today's players.
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Actually govt arranged that money via that Kishor Kumar concert
 
cricketjoshila said:
We are talking bowling here not speed.

As a bowler Bumrah is some distance ahead.
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Well Shoaib Akhtar can only be compared based on his pace so that's why I mentioned it.

There is no doubt that Bumrah is way ahead in terms of skills not even comparable to Shoaib.
 
No way will Bhumrah let Jonathan Trott score 150 plus against him on a green seaming swinging Lords wicket.

Trott had figured out Asif by the end of the 2010 series.
 
NishanKonar said:
Sachin actually keeps changing his memories of that final. Earlier he used to say he did not watch the game
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No Man. Back then India's win at the MCG when they bowled AUstralia out for 83 runs was on the frontpage of every news paper by all accounts. Multiply that 25 times. That was what WC final 1983. No cricketing even can match that. But if India wins a world cup now it still won't match that. First time win that too against Mighty west Indies against incredible odds. INdia winning 2011 is no big deal. Even if they had won 2023 no big deal. Because they were red hot favorites in both times.
 
sweep_shot said:
Does less speed mean he is bad? By your logic, McGrath shouldn't be in discussion too since he didn't have much pace.
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Mcgrath was 135 to 142 in his prime. Only post 2002 he got slow. 125 to 135 post 2002
 
Cricket Warrior said:
Well Shoaib Akhtar can only be compared based on his pace so that's why I mentioned it.

There is no doubt that Bumrah is way ahead in terms of skills not even comparable to Shoaib.
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Nobody can be compared to shoaib in terms of pace. No one. There will never be anyone again.

He was also a great bowler. Imo better than waqar at his best and just below wasim and imran for us. I would out waqar after shoaib. Shoaib played with zero support for majority of his career.
 
worldlife92 said:
I believe Bumrah is just behind Wasim Akram and Imran if you compare him with Pak bowlers and hence better than Asif, Amir, Shoaib and Waqar
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It’s ridiculous to rate Bumrah above Waqar & Shoaib and other Pakistani pacers of yesteryears. But he’s certainly better than Amir & Asif, two convicted cheats.
 
chinaman00 said:
Nobody will remember Bumrah in couple years. Absolute travesty to compare him to Waqar & Shoaib whose exploits and memories are etched in cricketing memories.
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We can't be nostalgic man. Got to accept reality. Shoaib was a great bowler no doubt.

Waqar too but bumrahs exploits have surpassed them easily.

Wasim then the rest.
 
kron said:
We can't be nostalgic man. Got to accept reality. Shoaib was a great bowler no doubt.

Waqar too but bumrahs exploits have surpassed them easily.

Wasim then the rest.
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What a thing to say. But this is the internet and people can say everything that comes to their mind. Fortunately, reality has its own laws.
 
chinaman00 said:
What a thing to say. But this is the internet and people can say everything that comes to their mind. Fortunately, reality has its own laws.
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Each to their own

My list would be
Wasim
Bumrah
Imran
Shoaib akthar

Then the rest

In that order. I have not seen a freak bowler like bumrah before. He has been outstanding everywhere.
 
My favorite Bumrah moment is when he took Mumbai indians or whatever they’re called to their 5th IPL title win. 👍

So far he is on par with Rao Iftikhar Anjum aka The Boa Constrictor. Like him, Bumrah also has the ability to constrict the scoring rate.

So he’s in good company so far. Excited to see where he goes from here.
 
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Buffet said:
Nah, Asif and Amir were twice the bowler Bumrah ever will be.
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What exactly Asif did to command this much adulation? Apart from bowling few great deliveries, his stats is ordinary. Ryan Harris in that logic is better than Mc Grath. In LOI he doesn't even come anywhere close to good. Now, we can always debate, what should have, could have..like Ahmed Shahzad, Aqmal etc were better than Kohli, Tendulkar etc
 
DJhant said:
What exactly Asif did to command this much adulation? Apart from bowling few great deliveries, his stats is ordinary. Ryan Harris in that logic is better than Mc Grath. In LOI he doesn't even come anywhere close to good. Now, we can always debate, what should have, could have..like Ahmed Shahzad, Aqmal etc were better than Kohli, Tendulkar etc
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It was a sarcastic comment. Bumrah has so many match winning spells in Aus, SA, Eng and at home that it's just becomes too one sided in favor of Bumrah.
 
kron said:
Each to their own

My list would be
Wasim
Bumrah
Imran
Shoaib akthar

Then the rest

In that order. I have not seen a freak bowler like bumrah before. He has been outstanding everywhere.
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I like that as a basis of comparison. If I had to do an all-time subcontinent Test XI, the pace attack would be easy
Wasim
Bumrah
Imran

Let's continue with that for interest
Sangakkara would be the keeper (even though he's not as good a batter when he keeps, you couldn't possibly lose that advantage)

Spinners would be Murali & Kumble (offie & leggie)

Openers - Sunny is one, the other is tricky...maybe Sehwag or maybe Saeed Anwar for a left-right combo

Middle Order - Dravid, Sachin & Kohli are tough to look past.
 
sweep_shot said:
Asif had to face these guys --> Sanga, Mahela, Tendulkar, Dravid, Ponting, Clarke, Kallis, Graeme Smith, Dilshan, Sanath, Samaraweera, Amla etc.

Bumrah mostly faced technically inferior batters.
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I find this logic ridiculous. So many times we apply the same logic to modern day batsmen and say they are inferior to yesteryear batsmen because they faced inferior bowling ! And now we make the same argument about modern day bowlers ! So basically we are saying cricket is on a continuous decline !

Honestly it is foolish to directly compare across generations . Every generation has its own challenges . If you say batsmen these days have inferior techniques , I will say bats are so much bigger these days , wickets are so placid , etc etc .
 
Red-Indian said:
I like that as a basis of comparison. If I had to do an all-time subcontinent Test XI, the pace attack would be easy
Wasim
Bumrah
Imran

Let's continue with that for interest
Sangakkara would be the keeper (even though he's not as good a batter when he keeps, you couldn't possibly lose that advantage)

Spinners would be Murali & Kumble (offie & leggie)

Openers - Sunny is one, the other is tricky...maybe Sehwag or maybe Saeed Anwar for a left-right combo

Middle Order - Dravid, Sachin & Kohli are tough to look past.
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Would also add shami who is on par with shoaib or very close to in that list above as well. Very impressed with his ability in Asia.

For a starting 11 as the best Asian team?

I would say I agree with the pace attack.

Wasim bumrah imran. Add kapil for AR role.

For a spin I will go with saqlain.
Kapil can be number 7

Top 6 is very hard

Sanga will be my keeper bat. Or pant. That's a tough one. For now I will keep sanga. Experience and pant hasn't played that many tests yet.

Now top 5

Sunny
Sachin
Miandad
Kohli
Younis

My personal preference anyway. There is dravid and a few others to choose from.
 
kron said:
Would also add shami who is on par with shoaib or very close to in that list above as well. Very impressed with his ability in Asia.

For a starting 11 as the best Asian team?

I would say I agree with the pace attack.

Wasim bumrah imran. Add kapil for AR role.

For a spin I will go with saqlain.
Kapil can be number 7

Top 6 is very hard

Sanga will be my keeper bat. Or pant. That's a tough one. For now I will keep sanga. Experience and pant hasn't played that many tests yet.

Now top 5

Sunny
Sachin
Miandad
Kohli
Younis

My personal preference anyway. There is dravid and a few others to choose from.
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I don't think there's any comparison between Sanga and Pant for the opener's role. In fact, I'd have Dhoni over Pant.

Saqlain wouldn't even my first choice spinner in a Pakistan alltime XI. I'd have Qadir over him. Anyway, I don't see how you can ignore the greatest offspinner of all time in Murali if you're going for just one spinner.

Sachin can't be an opener. If you don't want Dravid, pick Miandad over him but you'll need another opener.
 
Rohit Sharma in an interview said to talk about Bumrah and not Amir when a journalist asked him a question.

He knew back then what Bumrah is capable of.

Amir can’t be even compared to Ishant Sharma, his case is of what could have been not what happened. What happened is Amir is behind Ishant Sharma, Bhuvi and sone other pacers from sub continent.

By the time Bumrah retires he would have left Asif far behind.
 
He is no where near Wasim.

If you appreciate Bumrah’s talent, why would you even compare him to Amir.

Asif was technically more skilful then Bumrah, but the latter will have a better career for obvious reasons.
 
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Red-Indian said:
I don't think there's any comparison between Sanga and Pant for the opener's role. In fact, I'd have Dhoni over Pant.

Saqlain wouldn't even my first choice spinner in a Pakistan alltime XI. I'd have Qadir over him. Anyway, I don't see how you can ignore the greatest offspinner of all time in Murali if you're going for just one spinner.

Sachin can't be an opener. If you don't want Dravid, pick Miandad over him but you'll need another opener.
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That's a fair point. I knew I forgot someone yes. Murali should be there but chucking allegations made me hesitate to put him in the list.

Qadir is a fair call. I am ok with that. Pant is a lot better than Dhoni though.
 
shaz619 said:
He is no where near Wasim;

If you appreciate Bumrah’s talent, why would you even compare him to Amir.

Asif was technically more skilful then Bumrah, but the latter will have a better career for obvious reasons.
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To be fair no one comes close to wasim. Out of the remaining bowlers I would say imran and bumrah are the closest but the gap in terms of longevity is still huge.
 
kron said:
That's a fair point. I knew I forgot someone yes. Murali should be there but chucking allegations made me hesitate to put him in the list.

Qadir is a fair call. I am ok with that. Pant is a lot better than Dhoni though.
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On second thoughts you're right, Saqlain over Qadir. I got carried away by the mystique of Qadir. My cricket watching life started at the very end of Qadir's career but commentators used to cream themselves so much over him that he became a bit of a legendary figure (like Bedi) in my mind. As I look at the stats though, Saqlain beats him in every way - average, strike rate etc. Plus I've seen first hand the impact he had against India whereas Qadir's stats against India are nothing to write home about. That counts for a lot since India are the best players of spin.

Murali over both of them though.

And to come back to the topic Bumrah over Asif and Amir obviously. These brief blazing career guys always get nostalgically overrated.
 
kron said:
To be fair no one comes close to wasim. Out of the remaining bowlers I would say imran and bumrah are the closest but the gap in terms of longevity is still huge.
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Wasim Akram was exceptional in ODIs but his test record is bit underwhelming

How many match winning performances did Wasim have in test cricket. Especially in SENA. Not many except for that 1 great performance in Australia in 1989

Bumrah's USP is his ability to win matches for India. Done it with amazing regularity in overseas test matches
 
NishanKonar said:
Wasim Akram was exceptional in ODIs but his test record is bit underwhelming

How many match winning performances did Wasim have in test cricket. Especially in SENA. Not many except for that 1 great performance in Australia in 1989

Bumrah's USP is his ability to win matches for India. Done it with amazing regularity in overseas test matches
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Wasim was man of the match at the oval and Lords in 1992. Man of the series in 1992.
 
Red-Indian said:
On second thoughts you're right, Saqlain over Qadir. I got carried away by the mystique of Qadir. My cricket watching life started at the very end of Qadir's career but commentators used to cream themselves so much over him that he became a bit of a legendary figure (like Bedi) in my mind. As I look at the stats though, Saqlain beats him in every way - average, strike rate etc. Plus I've seen first hand the impact he had against India whereas Qadir's stats against India are nothing to write home about. That counts for a lot since India are the best players of spin.

Murali over both of them though.

And to come back to the topic Bumrah over Asif and Amir obviously. These brief blazing career guys always get nostalgically overrated.
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Both Bishen Bedi & Abdul Qadir were overhyped by ex cricketers & their contemporaries. Qadir was very average against India & Australia. His best performances came mostly at home on spinning pitches

Muttiah Muralitharan , Anil Kumble , Rangana Herath were far better than them
 
But I thin someone pointed out the obvious fact

If we select an All time XI from Asia the pace attack wud be Wasim, Bumrah & Imran Khan. Asif, Amir, Shoaib Akhtar wont be part of the conversation
 
kron said:
Each to their own

My list would be
Wasim
Bumrah
Imran
Shoaib akthar

Then the rest

In that order. I have not seen a freak bowler like bumrah before. He has been outstanding everywhere.
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As I said, quite preposterous to include Bumrah in such an illustrious list. That you omit Waqar Yonis itself exposes the fact you haven’t really watched cricket in the 90s and prior.

When it’s all said and done, Bumrah will be a footnote, at best. Incredible the preposterous hype created around this Bumrah guy.
 
chinaman00 said:
As I said, quite preposterous to include Bumrah in such an illustrious list. That you omit Waqar Yonis itself exposes the fact you haven’t really watched cricket in the 90s and prior.

When it’s all said and done, Bumrah will be a footnote, at best. Incredible the preposterous hype created around this Bumrah guy.
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Waqar Younis as per mamoon tampered a lot to get wickets and his numbers don't look great vs strong teams so I left him out. I do think shoaib at his best is better and underrated.

As for bumrah I would have him over both. What he has done in sena is unmatched by any Asian pacer.

Unbelievable stuff.

Wasim imran yes top 2. Rest are all very close but I will take bumrah over waqar and shoaib.
 
chinaman00 said:
As I said, quite preposterous to include Bumrah in such an illustrious list. That you omit Waqar Yonis itself exposes the fact you haven’t really watched cricket in the 90s and prior.

When it’s all said and done, Bumrah will be a footnote, at best. Incredible the preposterous hype created around this Bumrah guy.
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Won 2 test series in Australia when the phast bowling pakistani legends couldn't even win 1.

Has an incredible record everywhere.

Has the lowest average of anyone with 150 wickets since barnes.

But muh hype, that's what asif and waqar and amir had.
 
Statpadder Inc said:
Wasim was man of the match at the oval and Lords in 1992. Man of the series in 1992.
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To be fair England were a weak team then. West indies Australia pakistan were good sides. Eng and nz were average. India average. Sa just about started to play.
 
Bumrah has actual tangible accomplishments.

Waqar was a minnow bully and a ball tamperer, who would get slaughtered by the best.

Asif was dependent on conditions, had a terrible record in aus and at home.

But these get hyped to the moon lol
 
NishanKonar said:
But I thin someone pointed out the obvious fact

If we select an All time XI from Asia the pace attack wud be Wasim, Bumrah & Imran Khan. Asif, Amir, Shoaib Akhtar wont be part of the conversation
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There us no question about it.

Wasim bumrah imran.
I would also have kapil in there as an AR depending on conditions.

Waqar shoaib shami on bench. Fazal mahmood, vaas are honorary mentions.
 
kron said:
To be fair England were a weak team then. West indies Australia pakistan were good sides. Eng and nz were average. India average. Sa just about started to play.
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India were good at home, horrible away.
 
NishanKonar said:
Wasim Akram was exceptional in ODIs but his test record is bit underwhelming

How many match winning performances did Wasim have in test cricket. Especially in SENA. Not many except for that 1 great performance in Australia in 1989

Bumrah's USP is his ability to win matches for India. Done it with amazing regularity in overseas test matches
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That's true.

In his entire career, Wasim has 8 5-fers in won matches when playing away. Wasim does not have a single 5-fers in win playing away against Aus, WI, SA, Ind ... Those were the top 4-5 sides in his playing days.

Bumrah already has 6 5-fers in won away matches so far. Another couple of contributions in away wins and he will have more than Wasim. It's not like , India has ATG batting right now. Bumrah literally started winning matches for Indians while playing away and that too against stronger sides.

Wasim was a far better ODI bowler than Test. I know winning matches are team effort, but bowlers win you test matches and doing it in strong opposition's den is the toughest job unless you are backed by ATG batting unit. Neither Pakistan nor India had ATG batting units during Wasim/Bumrah.
 
Statpadder Inc said:
Won 2 test series in Australia when the phast bowling pakistani legends couldn't even win 1.

Has an incredible record everywhere.

Has the lowest average of anyone with 150 wickets since barnes.

But muh hype, that's what asif and waqar and amir had.
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The problem with opinions is that anyone is entitled to them.

To each his own.
 
Statpadder Inc said:
Wasim was man of the match at the oval and Lords in 1992. Man of the series in 1992.
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Yes but very few such instances

Bumrah has won more matches for India in SENA than Wasim did in his whole career

Like I said Wasim was terrific in ODIs but bit underwhelming in test matches. McGrath & Ambrose were comfortably ahead of him amongst the 90s bowlers. In ODIs he was the best of the pack
 
Buffet said:
That's true.

In his entire career, Wasim has 8 5-fers in won matches when playing away. Wasim does not have a single 5-fers in win playing away against Aus, WI, SA, Ind ... Those were the top 4-5 sides in his playing days.

Bumrah already has 6 5-fers in won away matches so far. Another couple of contributions in away wins and he will have more than Wasim. It's not like , India has ATG batting right now. Bumrah literally started winning matches for Indians while playing away and that too against stronger sides.

Wasim was a far better ODI bowler than Test. I know winning matches are team effort, but bowlers win you test matches and doing it in strong opposition's den is the toughest job unless you are backed by ATG batting unit. Neither Pakistan nor India had ATG batting units during Wasim/Bumrah.
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Thats why I keep saying Imran Khan was the best pace bowler from Pakistan. He won test matches for Pakistan in Australia / England / West Indies

Wasim & Waqar were terrific in ODIs which often colors their perceptions but in test cricket both were bit underwhelming compared to McGrath / Ambrose / Walsh / Donald
 
NishanKonar said:
Thats why I keep saying Imran Khan was the best pace bowler from Pakistan. He won test matches for Pakistan in Australia / England / West Indies

Wasim & Waqar were terrific in ODIs which often colors their perceptions but in test cricket both were bit underwhelming compared to McGrath / Ambrose / Walsh / Donald
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Ambrose mcgrath are tier 1.

Donald is very close to it. Walsh underrated. Walsh if he was an Asian bowler would be top 3 4 easily.
 
kron said:
To be fair England were a weak team then. West indies Australia pakistan were good sides. Eng and nz were average. India average. Sa just about started to play.
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If you have to see the top teams to beat in their home in 90s,

Aus, WI, SA, Ind and Pak were the top 5 teams by a clear margin in their home conditions in 90s.

Wasim did not have any 5-fers in wins in Aus, SA, WI or Ind. Actually it's very hard to take 5-fers in win against strong sides in their den. Even Ambrose and McGrath had just 3-4.

top5 sides at home in 90s.png
 
NishanKonar said:
Thats why I keep saying Imran Khan was the best pace bowler from Pakistan. He won test matches for Pakistan in Australia / England / West Indies

Wasim & Waqar were terrific in ODIs which often colors their perceptions but in test cricket both were bit underwhelming compared to McGrath / Ambrose / Walsh / Donald
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Agree mostly, but I don't rate Waqar too high in ODI. He was super expensive and if you are picking less than 2 wickets in ODI then being super expensive is mostly going to cost your team. His ER was 4.7 and that's poor in those days. Waqar also was no body in in any WC in ODI.

Now, Wasim was a top dog in ODI. I think people club Wasim and Waqar due to bowling together but there was a huge gap between them in ODI format. Also, Waqar bullied Eng which was a poor team in 90s, even in their home conditions, so narrative set by English media got too far in clubbing Wasim and Waqar. Those days English media used to be very dominant in setting narrative.
 
Buffet said:
Agree mostly, but I don't rate Waqar too high in ODI. He was super expensive and if you are picking less than 2 wickets in ODI then being super expensive is mostly going to cost your team. His ER was 4.7 and that's poor in those days. Waqar also was no body in in any WC in ODI.

Now, Wasim was a top dog in ODI. I think people club Wasim and Waqar due to bowling together but there was a huge gap between them in ODI format. Also, Waqar bullied Eng which was a poor team in 90s, even in their home conditions, so narrative set by English media got too far in clubbing Wasim and Waqar. Those days English media used to be very dominant in setting narrative.
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Waqar & Wasim got massively overhyped by British media bcoz of their county cricket exploits where they used to bully those poor sides to submission

In fact this is why I believe Indians like Kapil, Kumble , Srinath , Dravid , Azhar should have played more county cricket. They did fairly well during their county stints & few more seasons wud have enhanced their cricketing legacy due to hype generated by British media

1 big reason Bishen Bedi is so overhyped is again bcoz he played many seasons of county cricket
 
NishanKonar said:
Waqar & Wasim got massively overhyped by British media bcoz of their county cricket exploits where they used to bully those poor sides to submission

In fact this is why I believe Indians like Kapil, Kumble , Srinath , Dravid , Azhar should have played more county cricket. They did fairly well during their county stints & few more seasons wud have enhanced their cricketing legacy due to hype generated by British media

1 big reason Bishen Bedi is so overhyped is again bcoz he played many seasons of county cricket
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Yah, that's why I don't take any flowery praise by any media seriously. Just look at the actual output with context. Not just raw stats. Many posters just run with raw stats by saying average this or that. As soon as you check against stronger teams, it becomes clear that all averages are not same. Or check home vs away and it clears up really top vs just good. Right now, many were bumping Kane ATG status after he scored runs against this SA joke XI. I mean come on, why will you even think much about these runs when counting legacy of players.

Stats are often not needed if you have watched the entire career, but it helps when interacting with posters who have not seen the player's entire career. Some time it helps to counter my bias despite having watched some one. Main reason, I don't watch all games all the time.

I did see everything from 90s but some time impression can be bit biased based on liking some players. I used to watch Pakistan's matches mainly to watch Wasim.
 
Wasim Akram as a bowler in test cricket was finished from 2000 onwards. His last great performances in test matches came against the West Indies and Sri Lanka in 2000. In his autobiography he admitted he had mentally given up on the format from 2000 onwards and was focusing on the 2003 ODI WC.
 
He is better than Amir and Asif in terms of yorkers, but in swing, he is not near to Amir and Asif.
 
When it comes to tests, I rate allan Donald higher than wasim. A peak Donald in full flow was one of my favorite cricketing sights.
 
kron said:
Ambrose mcgrath are tier 1.

Donald is very close to it. Walsh underrated. Walsh if he was an Asian bowler would be top 3 4 easily.
Click to expand...
Ambrose in his autobiography talks about Donald in 1998 put the fear of God in the Caribbean batsmen.

He got so angry because they never feared him in domestic cricket this way
 
Buffet said:
Agree mostly, but I don't rate Waqar too high in ODI. He was super expensive and if you are picking less than 2 wickets in ODI then being super expensive is mostly going to cost your team. His ER was 4.7 and that's poor in those days. Waqar also was no body in in any WC in ODI.

Now, Wasim was a top dog in ODI. I think people club Wasim and Waqar due to bowling together but there was a huge gap between them in ODI format. Also, Waqar bullied Eng which was a poor team in 90s, even in their home conditions, so narrative set by English media got too far in clubbing Wasim and Waqar. Those days English media used to be very dominant in setting narrative.
Click to expand...
McGrath
Ambrose
Donald
Wasim
Walsh
Pollock
Waqar
The ranking of the best bowlers of that era
 
If you exclude Wasim Waqar stats against NZ who were a very poor side in 1990, 1992 and 1994. What would their career stats look like?
 
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