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Is Virat Kohli already a bigger match winner than Sachin Tendulkar?

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srh

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What is your list of match winners from India?

And in your list is Kohli already a bigger match winner than Tendulkar?
 
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Kohli plays for a better chasing team. He may end up being better, but he is getting all the help Tendu never had.
 
I think he's a better ODI clutch player and chaser, overall seems like an improvement which goes fine with the evolution theory. Tendulkar was better than Gavaskar in his own ways and Kohli ought to be better than Sachin otherwise our cricket is going down.
 
Electron said:
Kohli plays for a better chasing team. He may end up being better, but he is getting all the help Tendu never had.
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freelance_cricketer said:
I think he's a better ODI clutch player and chaser, overall seems like an improvement which goes fine with the evolution theory. Tendulkar was better than Gavaskar in his own ways and Kohli ought to be better than Sachin otherwise our cricket is going down.
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what is your list of match winners (top 5) from India?
 
Although Tendulkar was by far the superior batsman, Kohli definitely has a more cutting edge to him.
 
srh said:
what is your list of match winners (top 5) from India?
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1. Anil Kumble
2. Kapil Dev
3. Tendulkar
4. Sehwag
5. MSD/Kohli

But we're wiser at judging batting talent. Someone like Laxman, Dravid wont feature in that list but they were probably greater players than say Sehwag or MSD.
 
Sachin is a better bat but Kohli finishes games better than SRT. Kohli provides starts, sets up the big finish and then finishes the games himself. He is like a combination of SRT and MSD.
 
A better finisher by miles. A better Match winner? Not Yet. He needs to bring it on in WC games.
 
Better match winner? BS argument. Sachin was by far the best India ever produced and no stats can deny that (no matter how many you cook up). All a player needs to do is turn up and do his duty for the team and Sachin has done that with complete conviction. It's not his fault that others in the team have failed him.
 
Electron said:
Kohli plays for a better chasing team. He may end up being better, but he is getting all the help Tendu never had.
Click to expand...


Hmm not sure i agree with this, in what era are you talking about Sachins career. Id say the beginning yes, but the middle to late Sachin's career he had a formidable batting XI with Dravid (my all time fav india batsmen) i think took a lot out of bowling attacks and allowed sachin to come in at 4 with some sense of stability. Which is why i think dravid average in Aus/S.A. not as good he was the scapegoat.

Sehwag was from a PK fan a nightmare
Gambir excellent in home conditions
Laxman Very good player
Sourav before MS and maybe even still today India's best captain of the modern era
All-Rounders (Yuvraj etc knocking around)

Id go further that Virat for me in ODI is carrying india by himself all ready. I dont really see anyone else performing consistently with the bat as him, whereas sachin had a lot of good players around him. I think sachin career was extended in fact because he had such a good group of players around him.

Kholi has shown in WC, T20 and big ODI games that he can do it time after time in test i dont think he anywhere near as good as Sachin but then who is.

So for me if and its a big if Kholi keeps his performance up for the next couple of years id happily say IMO he's given more in terms of quality runs/trophies/ match winner etc sachin in limited format of the game. He's already won the world cup so he's really just batting for his own records. I rate Virat highly, he's a superb player at his age i think he will only improve perhaps he is a touch vulnerable traveling but he already has done soo much in his career I am expecting him to turn it around when given the chance in the future.
 
I rate Kohli's temperament better than Sachin. Without a doubt.

As for better batsman, no.

Better match winner in ODIs?

I think Kohli will be the better one eventually.
 
Just so that everyone have a fair idea how great Kohli's achievements are, please see below:

Ganguly Scored 22 centuries in 311 games

Lara score 19 centuries in 299 games

Anwar scored 20 centuries in 247 games

ABDV scored 18 centuries in 173 games.

Kohli scored 21 centuries in 147 games :facepalm:

That is insane and he will break all possible records in ODI's.
 
At this rate he will surpass likes of Bevan and Dhoni. But Viv and Tendulkar will remain far superior ODI batsmen. Game has changed alot, what Ganguly achieved with his daddy 100s in ODIs was marvellous. Kohli cannot come anywhere close to joy of Sachin-Ganguly opening the batting for India. In terms of talent ABDV is equivalent to Kohli in ODis, both are better than freak run machine Amla.

Let Kohli score in WCs.
 
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Kohli is a lot like 90s Tendulkar, although he needs to do that away as well and in tests. People who think he's already better than SRT haven't watched Tendu in his prime probably.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
1. Anil Kumble
2. Kapil Dev
3. Tendulkar
4. Sehwag
5. MSD/Kohli

But we're wiser at judging batting talent. Someone like Laxman, Dravid wont feature in that list but they were probably greater players than say Sehwag or MSD.
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Laxman was a mediocre ODI player and a useless T20 player. He was on par with the rest (and above Dhoni at Tests).

Laxman can't hold a candle to Sehwag who was better than him in all 3 formats (and really Laxman was good at only one). Dravid stands comparison, but really Laxman is not in the same league as these guys. Dhoni may be relatively weak as a Test Batsman, but he was a keeper and a captain too, and once you talk about limited overs, there's just no comparison at all, Laxman and Dravid are leagues below MS there.
 
Electron said:
Kohli plays for a better chasing team. He may end up being better, but he is getting all the help Tendu never had.
Click to expand...

To a certain extent yes but Tendulkar did play with some of the best odi players we've seen - Ganguly and Dravid both scored c.11k odi runs, Azhar scored over 9k, and then we have Yuvraj and Sehwag. SRT also played 100+ times with Dhoni. And he played 100+ times with Gambhir who was no mug with the bat in that format. What more help did SRT want?

Tendulkar seemed to get very nervous towards the end of an innings when chasing (or even when he was approaching a 100) in odis and I don't see that trait in Kohli - Kohli is fearless.

Kohli will end his career as a bigger odi match winner than SRT but he's isn't quite there at the moment.
 
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QasimAli said:
Hmm not sure i agree with this, in what era are you talking about Sachins career. Id say the beginning yes, but the middle to late Sachin's career he had a formidable batting XI with Dravid (my all time fav india batsmen) i think took a lot out of bowling attacks and allowed sachin to come in at 4 with some sense of stability. Which is why i think dravid average in Aus/S.A. not as good he was the scapegoat.

Sehwag was from a PK fan a nightmare
Gambir excellent in home conditions
Laxman Very good player
Sourav before MS and maybe even still today India's best captain of the modern era
All-Rounders (Yuvraj etc knocking around)

Id go further that Virat for me in ODI is carrying india by himself all ready. I dont really see anyone else performing consistently with the bat as him, whereas sachin had a lot of good players around him. I think sachin career was extended in fact because he had such a good group of players around him.

Kholi has shown in WC, T20 and big ODI games that he can do it time after time in test i dont think he anywhere near as good as Sachin but then who is.

So for me if and its a big if Kholi keeps his performance up for the next couple of years id happily say IMO he's given more in terms of quality runs/trophies/ match winner etc sachin in limited format of the game. He's already won the world cup so he's really just batting for his own records. I rate Virat highly, he's a superb player at his age i think he will only improve perhaps he is a touch vulnerable traveling but he already has done soo much in his career I am expecting him to turn it around when given the chance in the future.
Click to expand...

Have you seen sachin of 1995-1999, Dravid is nowhere as good as the way you described pre- 1999. Infact ganguly's and dravid's best period came after 1998. Before that it was only sachin. Nobody can think off doing stuffs that sachin did in 90s. Sehwag was poor in the first half of his career with avg barely reaching 30, only in his second half he was some what good. But he always had a gun strike rate.
 
QasimAli said:
Hmm not sure i agree with this, in what era are you talking about Sachins career. Id say the beginning yes, but the middle to late Sachin's career he had a formidable batting XI with Dravid (my all time fav india batsmen) i think took a lot out of bowling attacks and allowed sachin to come in at 4 with some sense of stability. Which is why i think dravid average in Aus/S.A. not as good he was the scapegoat.

Sehwag was from a PK fan a nightmare
Gambir excellent in home conditions
Laxman Very good player
Sourav before MS and maybe even still today India's best captain of the modern era
All-Rounders (Yuvraj etc knocking around)

Id go further that Virat for me in ODI is carrying india by himself all ready. I dont really see anyone else performing consistently with the bat as him, whereas sachin had a lot of good players around him. I think sachin career was extended in fact because he had such a good group of players around him.

Kholi has shown in WC, T20 and big ODI games that he can do it time after time in test i dont think he anywhere near as good as Sachin but then who is.

So for me if and its a big if Kholi keeps his performance up for the next couple of years id happily say IMO he's given more in terms of quality runs/trophies/ match winner etc sachin in limited format of the game. He's already won the world cup so he's really just batting for his own records. I rate Virat highly, he's a superb player at his age i think he will only improve perhaps he is a touch vulnerable traveling but he already has done soo much in his career I am expecting him to turn it around when given the chance in the future.
Click to expand...

Have you seen sachin of 1995-1999, Dravid is nowhere as good as the way you have described before 1999. Infact ganguly's and dravid's best period came after 1998. Before that it was only sachin. Nobody can think off doing stuffs that sachin did in 90s. Sehwag was poor in the first half of his career with avg barely reaching 30, only in his second half he was some what good. But he always had a gun strike rate.
 
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Yes, when it comes to chasing in the One day game.

But overall it's a firm No, when you count the Test format. Until Kohli starts scoring big and consistently at Test level he will not be nowhere near Sachin as this is the format you will be remembered ultimately, not these meaningless limited over matches.
 
Yes, he has left Sachin Tendulkar way behind when it to comes to deliver under pressure and finishing things off for the team.
 
[MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION], you a Supernatural fan? Great to see another SPN-ite here.
 
That 100th hundred by Sachin told me everything I wanted to know about him. He was so burdened by a personal milestone that he went slow in the 90s. I don't rate players who become cautious when reaching personal milestones. Never saw any aussies doing that.
 
I'd say Dhoni because on the day, he has the biggest impact within the game and has saved india from positions of 120-4 or 78-5. Kohli is starting to come into his own and I like the fact that he WANTS to go out there and play the game for his team. Not for himself.

Sachin is a quality batsman but I think no-one comes near him for now. However, someone like Kohli will overtake him one day as a big match player.
 
Both are chokers and who is the better choker between them should be the question asked.
 
Glen77 said:
Both are chokers and who is the better choker between them should be the question asked.
Click to expand...

Sachin was the best modern day batsman, far better than your bats. Accept that and move on.

Kohli cannot earn this title by bullying weak-bowling teams on subcon pitches. Lets see how he goes in Australia. Already failed vs Pakistan, in South Africa, in England and arguably against New Zealand so there are big question marks over his ability against good attacks on bowling-friendly pitches.

No such question marks hung over Sachin.
 
Sachin faced better bowlers, played with fringe and fixing players. Nothing to take away from Kohli, but I still rate Sachin above Kohli atm.
 
Tendu is and will always be the heart and sole of Indian cricket. I do agree that towards the end of his career he had to change his game and wasn't as explosive due to slow nature of his play but in 90s and early 2000s he was a beast and no Indian can replicate the enormous impact he had in our cricketing culture. Tendu will always be number one no matter what.
 
Well Tendu wasn't really a match winner. In that aspect, Kohli and Dhoni are ahead. But as a batsman there is no comparison.
 
Bilal7 said:
Sachin was the best modern day batsman, far better than your bats. Accept that and move on.

Kohli cannot earn this title by bullying weak-bowling teams on subcon pitches. Lets see how he goes in Australia. Already failed vs Pakistan, in South Africa, in England and arguably against New Zealand so there are big question marks over his ability against good attacks on bowling-friendly pitches.

No such question marks hung over Sachin.
Click to expand...

What?? 1 century and 2 half centuries in an odi series, against NZ in NZ is what you call failure? Except NZ Kohli failed against the above mentioned countries, you have mentioned. FYI he already had a century against england in england in odis
 
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tendu didn't have dhoni.

kohli got out making a century but dhoni made it sure that india wins.

so kohli + dhoni > tendu.

but if you take it as individual, tendu > kohli. tendu > dhoni.

no one can match the god of cricket.
 
Easily a bigger match winner than Tendu.

But can he ever be a bigger match winner than Inzamam?
 
hamzie said:
:))) tendulkar a match winner? :)))
thats enough jerry
Click to expand...

Sachin in the 90s averaged 43 with the bat (including the 75-80 matches where he was just a decent ODI batsman with no ODI centuries - after he became an opener, Sachin became a force in ODIs).

As an opener, he averaged 48.60 in the 90s.

In matches won, as opener, he averaged 71 in ODIs (95 SR) in the 90s.

Get this. 71 average. With 4148 runs.

Among Indian batsmen in the 90s - - The winning average is 61 here because it includes his average middle order performance too...or else its 71

sachin2.JPG

As opener

sachin3.JPG

Among ALL players in the 90s - Again his middle order 80 ODIs impacted his stats a bit or else its 71 avg with 95 SR.

sachin 4.JPG

Outside SC, in wins, as opener

sachin5.JPG

What a GARBAGE match winner for India in the 90s when we had a pathetic team... :)))
 
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^ Yaar, kyu bheja aur time zaaya kar rahe ho?

People with the opinion that Tendulkar was a nothing batsman have never ceased to exist earlier, and wont be the case in the near future either. Heck, when he was playing, people saying idiotic things about him were not scarce.. why would the trend be any different now that he has retired?
 
Stark said:
^ Yaar, kyu bheja aur time zaaya kar rahe ho?

People with the opinion that Tendulkar was a nothing batsman have never ceased to exist earlier, and wont be the case in the near future either. Heck, when he was playing, people saying idiotic things about him were not scarce.. why would the trend be any different now that he has retired?
Click to expand...

Reply is not for one poster but many posters with similar views who think Sachin was not a match winner.

But I get your point.
 
^^ Had it some other less talked about batsman, i would have understood your penchant for the detailed reply.
But Sachin has been discussed here a thousand times, and people's opinion remains pegged where it was.
 
Enforcer said:
Have you seen sachin of 1995-1999, Dravid is nowhere as good as the way you have described before 1999. Infact ganguly's and dravid's best period came after 1998. Before that it was only sachin. Nobody can think off doing stuffs that sachin did in 90s. Sehwag was poor in the first half of his career with avg barely reaching 30, only in his second half he was some what good. But he always had a gun strike rate.
Click to expand...

Seems you didn't read my post my friend, i said middle to late sachin your reference point of 1999, sachin retired 2013, 1999-2013 is 14 years his career was about 24 years (i think ). Where he had a much better team.

When he first came into the side again he had some good batsmen Azhuradin, Vinod Kambli, Vengsarkar (late in his career). They are nowhere near as good as him but it wasn't a one man team. But yes during 1995-1999 he was without a shadow of a doubt the main batsmen in india. My issue is that a lot of the time people forget sachin had a sound XI with him yes he was the best of his contemporaries but he had some good able batsmen towards middle-late of his career. And in the beginning he still had a good grouping of XI.
 
As long as Sachin remains the benchmark for such comparisons with any new/upcoming/great batsman, he will remain the benchmark. QED
 
So before the World Cup, I thought that Kohli was the far bigger matchwinner, but he is only a matchwinner in bilaterals. Choked in the World Cup. Despite that, he remains a bigger match winner than Sachin was. Sachin was simply an accumulator who player for stats. If he was less selfish, India would have won a World Cup under Ganguly's captaincy.
 
as-95 said:
So before the World Cup, I thought that Kohli was the far bigger matchwinner, but he is only a matchwinner in bilaterals. Choked in the World Cup. Despite that, he remains a bigger match winner than Sachin was. Sachin was simply an accumulator who player for stats. If he was less selfish, India would have won a World Cup under Ganguly's captaincy.
Click to expand...

so you must have started watching from 2000. sachin was an attacking player before you were born.
 
Not to worry, a few bilaterals against Sri Lanka should see him become the greatest chaser once more.
 
sachintendulkar76 said:
someone who has won most number of man of the matches is not a matchwinner as per some of these ignorant fools.
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But according to same people , afridi winning lot of man of match awards is a sign of him being a match winner (despite half of them being against minnows)
 
Sachin is an ATG and he has carried the Indian batting lineup all by himself for nearly a decade.

However if you are batting second and you got a big target, Virat Kohli over Sachin anytime.
 
srh said:
What is your list of match winners from India?

And in your list is Kohli already a bigger match winner than Tendulkar?
Click to expand...

Well...yes and no..I mean Kohli is a better chaser but he has the same problem as Sachin. They just seem to choke at the worst possible time when it's needed from him like in this semi final. Once Kohli wins a crunch match for the team I can say he's a bigger match winner
 
sachintendulkar76 said:
someone who has won most number of man of the matches is not a matchwinner as per some of these ignorant fools.
Click to expand...

MoM does not always go to the man who makes his team WIN. Tendulkar got the MoM many times when his team lost. But its no secret Sachin used to choke on the grandest stage
 
TheNightWatchman said:
Well...yes and no..I mean Kohli is a better chaser but he has the same problem as Sachin. They just seem to choke at the worst possible time when it's needed from him like in this semi final. Once Kohli wins a crunch match for the team I can say he's a bigger match winner
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Match winner = the one who makes the greatest yet impacting contribution in the game and not necessarily the one hitting the winning shot.

Both SRT and Kohli are similar; however Kohli still needs to go a long way. Will be interesting to see if he can be as consistent as SRT .
 
Kohli chokes only in World cups while Tendu chokes only in the Finals or when team needs him most.

That selfish 100 hundred against Bangla will never be forgotten.
 
Bilal7 said:
Sachin was the best modern day batsman, far better than your bats. Accept that and move on.

Kohli cannot earn this title by bullying weak-bowling teams on subcon pitches. Lets see how he goes in Australia. Already failed vs Pakistan, in South Africa, in England and arguably against New Zealand so there are big question marks over his ability against good attacks on bowling-friendly pitches.

No such question marks hung over Sachin.
Click to expand...

He hasn't had a good time against us but he has two centuries against us on neutral venues. One massive 183, his highest ever score in ODIs.
 
TheNightWatchman said:
Well...yes and no..I mean Kohli is a better chaser but he has the same problem as Sachin. They just seem to choke at the worst possible time when it's needed from him like in this semi final. Once Kohli wins a crunch match for the team I can say he's a bigger match winner
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183 vs. Pakistan in the Asia Cup chasing a massive total?
 
Commander said:
183 vs. Pakistan in the Asia Cup chasing a massive total?
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India were already knocked out of the tournament by that time. And I never said he was a bad chaser. He is one of the best chasers out there but when it comes to big world tournaments he can't make his mark
 
Commander said:
He hasn't had a good time against us but he has two centuries against us on neutral venues. One massive 183, his highest ever score in ODIs.
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Once faced against quality bowlers he isn't good against Pak. His average is still in the 20s against Pakistan despite his 2 huge hundreds against us. Those neutral venues were Mirpur and Adelaide the flattest track in Australia
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Sachin in the 90s averaged 43 with the bat (including the 75-80 matches where he was just a decent ODI batsman with no ODI centuries - after he became an opener, Sachin became a force in ODIs).

As an opener, he averaged 48.60 in the 90s.

In matches won, as opener, he averaged 71 in ODIs (95 SR) in the 90s.

Get this. 71 average. With 4148 runs.

Among Indian batsmen in the 90s - - The winning average is 61 here because it includes his average middle order performance too...or else its 71

View attachment 50801

As opener

View attachment 50802

Among ALL players in the 90s - Again his middle order 80 ODIs impacted his stats a bit or else its 71 avg with 95 SR.

View attachment 50803

Outside SC, in wins, as opener

View attachment 50804

What a GARBAGE match winner for India in the 90s when we had a pathetic team... :)))
Click to expand...

Sachin of the 90s is so much better than Kohli today especially considering the horrible Indian batting lineup back then
 
No. He was on course before the WC, but after his performance in the WC we have to put this on hold for now.
 
On flat pitches against 2nd class bowlers, Kohli is far ahead of tendulkar. Against top class bowlers on a bowler friendly pitch? Thats a different story. Sachin will always be rated higher than Kohli.
 
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