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Is Virat Kohli on the brink of ATG status in Tests subject to his litmus test in England?

shaz619

shaz619

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Right now he is a borderline ATG, these are his Test averages in the following countries:

AUS: 62
IND: 55
NZ: 71
SA: 68
SL: 44

He has been pretty much excellent every where apart from the WI's and England. Think we have been overly harsh on the lad, you can only beat what is put before you and he has a terrific record overall. Inzamam is already regarded as a Test legend by many but he has flopped big time in Australia and South Africa, but he wasn't the strongest mentally that let him down so he under performed big time.

For an asian batsman, runs in the following countries are like GOLD : Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and England. So there's an argument to be made that Kohli is already an ATG, like how many asian batsman in history even have 5 hundreds in AUS ? that is superhuman stuff.

I think that if he does well in England there can be no doubt left with regards to his greatness and we should appreciate him while he's still around, a batsman of his calibre only comes around so often.
 
I don't think you'll have to wait for too long to see another ATG from India.
Prithvi Shaw is gonna be an even bigger beast than Kohli.
 
shaz619 said:
Right now he is a borderline ATG, these are his Test averages in the following countries:

AUS: 62
IND: 55
NZ: 71
SA: 68
SL: 44

He has been pretty much excellent every where apart from the WI's and England. Think we have been overly harsh on the lad, you can only beat what is put before you and he has a terrific record overall. Inzamam is already regarded as a Test legend by many but he has flopped big time in Australia and South Africa, but he wasn't the strongest mentally that let him down so he under performed big time.

For an asian batsman, runs in the following countries are like GOLD : Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and England. So there's an argument to be made that Kohli is already an ATG, like how many asian batsman in history even have 5 hundreds in AUS ? that is superhuman stuff.

I think that if he does well in England there can be no doubt left with regards to his greatness and we should appreciate him while he's still around, a batsman of his calibre only comes around so often.
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as a batsman no doubt he's been the best lately but in my mind being a good player and the best are complete opposite. Good player is what I'd say Kohli is but Best player not yet unless he converts those amazing averages into series wins for india on away soil
 
If Pointing can be considered ATG despite failing in India, why can't Kohli be considered an ATG regardless of his performance in England?
 
Raja Sab said:
as a batsman no doubt he's been the best lately but in my mind being a good player and the best are complete opposite. Good player is what I'd say Kohli is but Best player not yet unless he converts those amazing averages into series wins for india on away soil
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Series wins are dependent on many factors, one man alone can't do that and he needs to be playing in a team which is a bit of a golden generation especially in places like AUS and even then it may not be enough but we should judge their individual performances though
 
LastManstanding said:
If Pointing can be considered ATG despite failing in India, why can't Kohli be considered an ATG regardless of his performance in England?
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Sure he can but it's still something which would be argued, scoring runs in England would be a big deal also given his struggles there in the past
 
It's like this, people often question whether or not Floyd would be able to defeat Manny for a number of years even after his semi-retirements; and people would debate it long after he has left the sport; 'what about Manny?' it's a ? which would always come up but he defeated him eventually to put the debates to rest. Now there are a number of players who are fantastic but have certain boogeymen which they may or may not have overcome.

Kohli is arguably already an all time great but if he answers his critics by performing well in England with regards to dealing with lateral movement then surely he should be considered one of the greatest of all time and I believe he will have a good tour.
 
I have grown to appreciate Kohli with time, he's just too good a player and a treat to watch at his best. There are only a select few who can challenge a status to be regarded as the best batsman on the planet and Kohli is one of them given his prowess across all formats.
 
When Lennox Lewis was defeated by Hashim Rahman and Oliver Mcall everywhere he went folk would remind him of those defeats and say, what about Hashim Rahman ? what about Oliver Mcall ? The great Muhammad Ali also had lost to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton when he was still physically able to compete at the world level despite his decline due to parkinsons, fatigue, wear/tear and his age; but one of the most important qualities to elevating your greatness to another level is responding to adversity and your boogeymen, Lennox Lewis and Ali avenged those high profile defeats; they would have ended up in the hall of fame regardless but it just emphasises your class and sets you apart from the rest when an emphatic response is given to the periods when you didn't look so invincible.

This analogy can easily be applied to Virat Kohli and it's a similar narrative, he obviously had some technical issues early on in his career but he rectified them and is a better player now; going to England and playing well there would have bought him full circle and he'd have advocated his status as the best batsman in the world without a doubt and on of the greatest of his generation.
 
The coming overseas tour will play massive role. Time has come for India to start winning away.

We have won just one test outside Asia and the credit goes to A Rahane in Lords.

We have a formidable team and now its time to start winning in those big countries.
 
The team is looking good and VK has taken the mantle from his senior, Dhoni and this would be a good time to prove his skills abroad. It will be interesting to see how he handles the swinging ball and soem genuine pace. He surely has the skill and I look forward to seeing him bat and some competitive cricket
 
Regardless of stats, I think Kohli has a quite a way to go to be regarded as an ATG.

He has incredible highs and lows in tests.

He averages 55 in India but impact wise, he is not as good as his stats suggest.

Kohli the test bat just doesn't assure me like an ATG test bat would.

But there is always time on his side. He can get there eventually if he gets consistent impact wise.
 
No, he needs another set of great overseas tours to get close, plus more match winning performances in India. If he does that, he can be on the level of Younis/Amla even if he doesn't perform in England.
 
To be honest,Knocks which result in wins are given FAR greater importance than the ones which result in a loss.
Innings like Shafiq at Gabba or Kohli at Adelaide would be very widely applauded if only they had come in a winning cause.
So even if Kohli scores some mind-blowing knocks & India goes on to lose the match it takes the sheen off those knocks.
India needs their bowlers to perform overseas.If they can do it,I'm pretty sure our Batting lineup can run riot overseas.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Kohli needs 5 years of 60 plus avg to be a ATG.
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Agreed.

Virat IS an ATG in ODI's, but in Tests, the jury is out. I don't agree with 60+ though, even 55-60 in the next 5 years or so.

Some people are so quick to overrate current talent. Sachin and Lara weren't debated as ATG's till at least 5-6 years of consistently playing test cricket
 
He's young so there's still a fair amount to achieve but for me if he can get over this hurdle in England then the rest will be easy
 
Nah, He has to perform a high level for a much longer period.
 
He needs to do more in the Test format.

Arguably he's achieved more than a lot in the limited formats.
 
Needs to average 50 plus for a longer period of time. But I think he will finish as an ATG in tests as well as LO.
 
Yes, pretty much. But will he be tested as meticulously as his previous tour? Yet to be determined. Dukerson is on his last legs. Woakes has lost a yard after injury. They haven't introduced any other young swing bowler.

He's got a bit to prove on turners as well.
 
I think Smith, Kohli and ABD will go down as modern greats of the game overall taking all formats into consideration after Sangakkara's retirement.

Root and Williamson will miss out.
 
Ab Fan said:
I think Smith, Kohli and ABD will go down as modern greats of the game overall taking all formats into consideration after Sangakkara's retirement.

Root and Williamson will miss out.
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Root? He beast.
 
He has a long way to go yet, but it is obviously a matter of when rather than if. He would not be able to better his ODI career though, because he is not going to get close to the GOAT status in Tests but he is nearly there in ODIs.
 
JattMaula said:
Root? He beast.
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Root is a probable case in tests and odis both.

Those three are guaranteed to be an ATG in one of them and great in other. Also, they have got the peer reputation while for Root, we have to wait. He is young and can become one. Too early to talk.
 
Ab Fan said:
Root is a probable case in tests and odis both.

Those three are guaranteed to be an ATG in one of them and great in other. Also, they have got the peer reputation while for Root, we have to wait. He is young and can become one. Too early to talk.
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Root is better than Kholi in tests and better than Smith in LO's.
 
JattMaula said:
Root is better than Kholi in tests and better than Smith in LO's.
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I dont know I just feel Smith and Kohli will go down as two of the best of the fab four. I like Root too but his poor conversion rate can hurt him in long run in terms of impactful knocks away from home.
 
It's a huge tour for him in both formats.

In ODIs, he only has two "flaws": ICC knockout games and AWAY in England (32.33 AVG).

I expect him to put up a huge performance.
 
I like annoying the Don Kohleone's fanbots but here I'm gonna talk pure facts. Kohli has done nothing apart from a series in Aus (similar to that of Williamson and Azhar) that can give him ATG potential in test cricket. In ODIs he's done pretty much everything but knockouts but in tests he's got a long way to reach Indian great. In Asia he's overshadowed by Pujara and outside Vijay/Rahane matched and/or were superior to him in different countries. If he does well in England, he's improved his reputation a lot but ATG level is not easy at all and people are needlessly throwing the term around. Batsmen like YK, Clarke, Amla, KP are not ATG and they all mop the floor with him so he needs to get on their level. What he needs to do is have a dominant peak like his ODI one where he's the top test batsman for a couple of years, including in his next batch of away tours to be in contention for ATG level. If he wants that higher tier Sachin, Lara level he needs to also dominate the best bowling attacks home and away.

What I see Kohli ending up as is an Indian test great on the same level of KP or Amla and probably the greatest ODI batsman ever. But with Kohli, he always fails to impress when you expect him to so I wouldn't be surprised if my prediction goes south.
 
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Depends how you define ATG. Already an Indian great even in tests. Will be considered on of the best Test bats in his era along with Smith and Root. But wouldn't get on an all time XI on anyone's list (even if he succeeds in England) for the time being.

I think he will reach ATG with a good test series in England. He has already done well in SA and Aus. I think what goes against him is these days people don't rate 50 average like they used to. And arguably bowling attacks are worse than in the past these days. Also the less importance/emphasis on tests doesn't help. It also probably doesn't help that Smith exists who is the best batsman in test cricket today by a big distance. Smith should already be considered an ATG, it's very rare for a batsman to be able to succeed against all types of bowling in all different conditions, has no weakness. Think Smith will even end up better than Ponting in tests.

It's not really Kohli's fault that the bowling attacks these days are lacklustre. So yeah I think he will be and ATG if he succeeds in England.
 
ads101 said:
Depends how you define ATG. Already an Indian great even in tests. Will be considered on of the best Test bats in his era along with Smith and Root. But wouldn't get on an all time XI on anyone's list (even if he succeeds in England) for the time being.

I think he will reach ATG with a good test series in England. He has already done well in SA and Aus. I think what goes against him is these days people don't rate 50 average like they used to. And arguably bowling attacks are worse than in the past these days. Also the less importance/emphasis on tests doesn't help. It also probably doesn't help that Smith exists who is the best batsman in test cricket today by a big distance. Smith should already be considered an ATG, it's very rare for a batsman to be able to succeed against all types of bowling in all different conditions, has no weakness. Think Smith will even end up better than Ponting in tests.

It's not really Kohli's fault that the bowling attacks these days are lacklustre. So yeah I think he will be and ATG if he succeeds in England.
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Sorry you don't become ATG by just having one good series in the country. Kohli needs to work really hard in tests to reach that level. He isn't at that level yet. He needs sustained good form and performances for few years in tests to reach that level. He has just had 2 good years of test cricket and even in that he had a horrible home series against Australia where Steven Smith comfortably outscored him against better bowlers. Kohli as a test player needs to go a long way before can be called ATG. Even VVS Laxman who played some phenomenal innings for India under pressure isn't considered ATG. Kohli will be an Indian great but to attain an ATG status, he needs to have a sustained period of consistent batting in tests like he has done in ODI's. The current Kohli isn't at the level of Smith at the moment in tests.
 
He's a nobody in tests right now. Nowhere near the ATG level in test cricket. You might as well have made this question about Azhar Ali.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Kohli needs 5 years of 60 plus avg to be a ATG.
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Thats way too arbitrary and generic.

He needs a 55 ish average overall for the bulk of his career and average 40-45 in most major countries. Based on the OP he already has the latter qualification so far.
 
He needs impactful innings and not big scores necessarily. I definitely understand Root & co would be after him. And I foresee green pitches in first two test matches and if it backfires they will for the tried and tested formula of sa and aus to produce bouncy tracks with less movement factor to kill Indian bowling factor. I would take 1 hundred and 3 50s as success in what 10 innings?
 
He was quite impressive last year in tests. Scored big hundreds/doubles. England has been the only real flaw in his record but I think he will come good next year. Needs to stop playing meaningless T20's and ODIs though and focus on his Test game .
 
SarfiBabarHaris said:
Not even in top 10 test batsmen in last 5 years. No way near an Atg in tests for me. Odis, yes!
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Forgot to add, he is India's 4th best batsman for me currently. Just didn't play any impactful innings in his 60 match career. The best he played was the 200 against England but nobody remember about that innings now. It was just a good innings and will never be talked as a great or even v.good innings.
 
He is on his way. He is already an ATG overall, and is heading for legendary status in Test cricket as well.

These are type of knocks that separate the great from the good. He has scored runs in all countries barring England, and he will set the record straight this summer.
 
A hundred at a SR of 65+ when wickets have tumbling on the other end. This is what you call a champion batsman. :azhar2
 
Mamoon said:
He is on his way. He is already an ATG overall, and is heading for legendary status in Test cricket as well.

These are type of knocks that separate the great from the good. He has scored runs in all countries barring England, and he will set the record straight this summer.
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He's pretty much there already I guess :). ATG in tests.
 
Incredible knock from a top class player. This is how you lead your side from the front. Unlike our super yelling captain who keeps hiding from challenges.
 
Mamoon said:
He is on his way. He is already an ATG overall, and is heading for legendary status in Test cricket as well.

These are type of knocks that separate the great from the good. He has scored runs in all countries barring England, and he will set the record straight this summer.
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Very good knock on a pitch which had little to no lateral movement for fast bowlers. We all know he can score on such pitches. Turn and bounce dont trouble him. Its the lateral movement (swing and seam) which troubles him as was evident in the 1st test itself.
 
Madplayer said:
Its the lateral movement (swing and seam) which troubles him as was evident in the 1st test itself.
Click to expand...

To be fair only 1 batsmen got 50 in the entire test match and that too after surviving a drop catch, even the best of bats struggle when there is a lot of lateral movement...
 
Incredible knock, no other batsmen in the world other than Smith could have done it.
 
Madplayer said:
Very good knock on a pitch which had little to no lateral movement for fast bowlers. We all know he can score on such pitches. Turn and bounce dont trouble him. Its the lateral movement (swing and seam) which troubles him as was evident in the 1st test itself.
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yeah that is why every other batsman scored a 100 here. And Smith his scoring his 100s on greenest of green pitches where ball is moving and seaming. And south african batsmen scored over 500 last test.
 
Missed out on a double century, casual dismissals of Vijay and Pandya didn't help.

Madplayer said:
Very good knock on a pitch which had little to no lateral movement for fast bowlers. We all know he can score on such pitches. Turn and bounce dont trouble him. Its the lateral movement (swing and seam) which troubles him as was evident in the 1st test itself.
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lol his cameo was the only comfortable knock from either team on the 4th day.
 
If Kohli scores a double here, [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] is going to go into hiding for a year :)))
 
Brilliant innings and has single-handedly brought his team back into the match.

Rest of the batsmen should be embarrassed.
 
Personally i have seen some of the FTBs making lot of runs in England. Kumble got 100, Agarkar got 100. Ganguly is not an FTB. But he had issue with bouncers. But he scored tons of runs there. So many guys have done well in England. It is much easier to score runs there than SA. SA is the hardest place to score runs Even in the smae series where Kohli failed, Bhuvaneswar scored 3 fifties in a row. Even Shami got one. It was a case of Kohli over-complicating things for himself.
 
Romali_rotti said:
To be fair only 1 batsmen got 50 in the entire test match and that too after surviving a drop catch, even the best of bats struggle when there is a lot of lateral movement...
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You just had to spoil the fun by letting lose this basic stuff eh?

Chalo, good hai ki you didn't divulged the name of the 50 scoring batsman, and neither did you reminded ki which opposition he scored the run against (this place's fabled gfn bowling line up ie). Free fund mein phaddey ho jaaney thay nahi toh.
 
kingusama92 said:
Brilliant innings and has single-handedly brought his team back into the match.

Rest of the batsmen should be embarrassed.
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Truth be told, only Vijay, Pujara, and KL Rahul could be expected to be feeling embarrassed, with the last one being still wet behind the ears. Others are abs free loaders.
 
Good inning.

Will see if he can score with worst tailenders in test playing countries.
 
I have been scoring 300s against my street boys on a bouncy road. If you think of him as ATG then I am SATG.

Else. The conditions and bowling he is facing are joke. No wonder why people call bradman as ATG.
 
Madplayer said:
Very good knock on a pitch which had little to no lateral movement for fast bowlers. We all know he can score on such pitches. Turn and bounce dont trouble him. Its the lateral movement (swing and seam) which troubles him as was evident in the 1st test itself.
Click to expand...

The ball has pretty much reversed throughout the last 40 overs. And 2nd new ball has swung too. Not sure which match you are watching. Even if the ball was going completely straight after pitching or in the air, the situation and the bowling attack itself would make it a very good inning.
 
Lets be honest.

This says nothing about his weaknesses since it was a pitch straight up his alley.

Obviously great knock but we all know he has the ability to play such knocks and I will and praise this on other threads

However this is not the thread for that and the question is regarding his ability to play swing and seam in regards where his legacy stands overall.. And its his total tailender-level abilities against swing and movement which diminishes his worth as Test batsman and those questions are still unanswered on his part as of now
 
Aman said:
Incredible knock, no other batsmen in the world other than Smith could have done it.
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Lol Younis and Shafiq literally did this on the last tour on this very ground,

Pak was 4-5 down under 50 and both scored centuries
 
Slog said:
Lol Younis and Shafiq literally did this on the last tour on this very ground,

Pak was 4-5 down under 50 and both scored centuries
Click to expand...

To add:

Pakistan 33/4 before Younis Khan and Shafiq scored 111 each
 
Slog said:
Lol Younis and Shafiq literally did this on the last tour on this very ground,

Pak was 4-5 down under 50 and both scored centuries
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Kohli is doing this all on his own, he has had no one to work off and build a big partnership with.
 
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Kohli is not an opener. Kohli's problem is not swing or seam. But swing or seam against brand new ball that too at the beginning only. Who doesn't have problem. Being a ODI legend he doesn't want to leave the ball instinctively. He is gradually trying hard to seperate ODI and Test batting. Once he gets through that phase he will be freaking 300 in England. England is one of the best place to pile up runs.
 
Princejain191 said:
The ball has pretty much reversed throughout the last 40 overs. And 2nd new ball has swung too. Not sure which match you are watching. Even if the ball was going completely straight after pitching or in the air, the situation and the bowling attack itself would make it a very good inning.
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Medium pacers reversing a bit means nothing. The moment styen was there pairing rabada, he was a walking chicken.
 
Romali_rotti said:
To be fair only 1 batsmen got 50 in the entire test match and that too after surviving a drop catch, even the best of bats struggle when there is a lot of lateral movement...
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True. I dont deny any of it. Do you disagree with what i said though?
 
Scoring in England in late summer is not a big deal. Substandard batsmen like Shafiq and Azhar scored tons, as well as Younis who has been a sitting duck against quality swing and seam throughout his career. Kohli should score at least two tons.

It is true that he has issues against lateral movement, but every batsman in history has had a chink in his armory, and failed in certain conditions/on certain pitches.

Bradman’s averages was halved in Bodyline, the so-called best player of spin (Lara) struggled in India, and so did Ponting etc. etc.
 
Indiafan said:
yeah that is why every other batsman scored a 100 here. And Smith his scoring his 100s on greenest of green pitches where ball is moving and seaming. And south african batsmen scored over 500 last test.
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What a waste of a response!

I just described kohli's innings and match conditions. Even said its a very good knock.

Tell me if i was lying.
 
indipper said:
Medium pacers reversing a bit means nothing. The moment styen was there pairing rabada, he was a walking chicken.
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Face palm He almost made 2 centuries in the same Test in SA when INdai toured last time. Vernon bowling was so accurate that M Vijay had to bring his best to leave his deliveries. Some of the shots that Kohli played today cannot be played by m ere mortals.
 
Mohammad Azharuddin is such a legend anytime ball doesn't rise above knees. He just scored runs for fun in England.
 
Mamoon said:
Scoring in England in late summer is not a big deal. Substandard batsmen like Shafiq and Azhar scored tons, as well as Younis who has been a sitting duck against quality swing and seam throughout his career. Kohli should score at least two tons.

It is true that he has issues against lateral movement, but every batsman in history has had a chink in his armory, and failed in certain conditions/on certain pitches.

Bradman’s averages was halved in Bodyline, the so-called best player of spin (Lara) struggled in India, and so did Ponting etc. etc.
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Is scoring in Australia a big deal?
 
Madplayer said:
Very good knock on a pitch which had little to no lateral movement for fast bowlers. We all know he can score on such pitches. Turn and bounce dont trouble him. Its the lateral movement (swing and seam) which troubles him as was evident in the 1st test itself.
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Even the best test batsman of this era - Smith won't score on green mambas with Rabada,Philander and Ngidi bowling. If that's your criteria, then nobody from the current generation will qualify. Maybe Williamson but that's it.
 
This pitch has lot of Variable bounce. Just because Kohli scores runs easily doesn't mean anyone can.
 
Princejain191 said:
The ball has pretty much reversed throughout the last 40 overs. And 2nd new ball has swung too. Not sure which match you are watching. Even if the ball was going completely straight after pitching or in the air, the situation and the bowling attack itself would make it a very good inning.
Click to expand...

Thats what i called it. You would see it in my post when your BP gets back to normal :yk
 
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