Labour leadership: Result will be announced on 4 April [Post #1698]

[Robert]

48% voted Remain
The Hard Remainers claim their view has 'gained' in popularity since
But the Lib Dems the ONLY Hard Remain Party polls at 7%
Lib Dems are a busted flush. They don't have any real ideology, they are just Wet Tories or Tory enablers.

The left don’t get to call us enablers any more, with your leader’s stance on Brexit that will damage the economy and thereby perpetuate austerity for decades.

Liberalism is as distinct from Conservatism as Socialism is, but harder to explain as most people only think in simplistic left-right terms.

 

[Robert]

Why though? The argument has always been that immigration is great for the economy regardless of a SM.

UK's economy was on the rise after 1945 though non-EU migration when the SM did not exist.

Because then we had manufacturing base, and were in 5% surplus until 1970.

 

[Robert]

It’s always interesting when Remainers call for EUref2 or say that (if there was one) they would win it. As you say, looking at the hard facts and the numbers - if there was an EUref2 (won’t be) then honestly Leave would probably get even more votes than last time.

As for the Libs, when did they have an ideology? They survived as a 50-seater band when they were recipients of the protest / trash vote - then UKIP and the SNP came along and took that off them, with Labour now hoovering up the student fervour on the side as well.

Clegg’s non-campaign in 2015, when the Libs said little more than they would work with whoever gets in on a hung parliament, was extraordinarily unimaginative and arrogant, and the biggest direct cause amongst many causes of what is now our resultant long-term Tory government - we are still discussing their myriad failures 3 years later, but honestly that example tells anyone everything they need to know about this impotent non-manifesto party.

If an educated unbiased bloke like you doesn’t understand Liberalism then we aren’t getting our message across.

The idea is to enhance personal freedom, not concentrate it in a few private hands or big state, like the authoritarian Tories and Labour. Just download the Manifesto and have a read.

Whichever government came to power in 2010, facing a 10% deficit with no strong manufacturing base was going to become deeply unpopular. Sadly the Liberal role in ameliorating Tory austerity and enhancing personal freedoms was not communicated, and Clegg got the blame.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] if a centrist and pro EU politician and policies is what the country is crying out for then why are the Lib Dems polling so low?

Because Corbyn has a message of hope which some believe strongly, and which others find so incredulous and retrograde that they are voting Tory to stop it. The electorate is polarised.

Loss of the old Liberal heartlands of the southwest due to demographic change.

Because Sir Vince, while intellectually brilliant, is seen as old and not empathic. Should have gone for the warmer Jo Swinson, who would engage a lot of young women in particular, but she is raising a young child currently.

It will take time to rebuild a core vote, but with 1100 Councillors and big gains expected in May, the grassroots are strong.

 

[s28]

There are 30000 council seats so Lib Dems having 3% is hardly a great boast

 

[James]

If an educated unbiased bloke like you doesn’t understand Liberalism then we aren’t getting our message across.

The idea is to enhance personal freedom, not concentrate it in a few private hands or big state, like the authoritarian Tories and Labour. Just download the Manifesto and have a read.

Whichever government came to power in 2010, facing a 10% deficit with no strong manufacturing base was going to become deeply unpopular. Sadly the Liberal role in ameliorating Tory austerity and enhancing personal freedoms was not communicated, and Clegg got the blame.

Western Liberalism is in a very tricky period right now. The big-time Liberals with the most influence are (for very different reasons) carrying around fragile or damaged reputations: Hillary Clinton, Nick Clegg, Tim Farron in the political sphere; even some bastion celebrities like Kanye West and Harvey Weinstein etc... The public aren’t buying Liberalism at the moment, Liberal parties like the LDs and US Democrats aren’t offering strong enough messages to change their minds.

 

[s28]

After 40 years of Global Neoliberalism the 'Liberals' so called ameliorating of the Rights dogma is simply complicit and enabling of it

It will require full throated Left wing response to shift the Overton Window

So anyone still clinging to this Liberal/Centrist/Pragmatic/Managerial/Technocrat Politics dream simply is out of touch and lacking any political sense. Both the ideology and practical implementaton of Liberalism is a fail.

To their credit the voting public have by and large sussed this out way before the political class

 

[R3verse Swing]

It's all about being left or right now. Last 10 years has wiped out the centre.

 

[Robert]

Western Liberalism is in a very tricky period right now. The big-time Liberals with the most influence are (for very different reasons) carrying around fragile or damaged reputations: Hillary Clinton, Nick Clegg, Tim Farron in the political sphere; even some bastion celebrities like Kanye West and Harvey Weinstein etc... The public aren’t buying Liberalism at the moment, Liberal parties like the LDs and US Democrats aren’t offering strong enough messages to change their minds.

I would call Clinton a conservative. The American system has two right wings.

Clegg burned his political capital over student fees.

Farron is really a backbencher who did a reasonable job as cheerleader for a couple of years.

The heavyweight Liberals of today are Trudeau and Macron.

 

[Robert]

After 40 years of Global Neoliberalism the 'Liberals' so called ameliorating of the Rights dogma is simply complicit and enabling of it

It will require full throated Left wing response to shift the Overton Window

So anyone still clinging to this Liberal/Centrist/Pragmatic/Managerial/Technocrat Politics dream simply is out of touch and lacking any political sense. Both the ideology and practical implementaton of Liberalism is a fail.

To their credit the voting public have by and large sussed this out way before the political class

Well, I would equally question the political sense of any member of a Socialist party whose leader is playing right into the hands of the disaster capitalists.

Now he is in effect repeating the Boris bus nonsense! Does he think his supporters are that thick? How will he spend the EU money on the NHS when we have to pay £40B and the economy shrinks by 5%?

How?

 

[R3verse Swing]

Well, I would equally question the political sense of any member of a Socialist party whose leader is playing right into the hands of the disaster capitalists.

Now he is in effect repeating the Boris bus nonsense! Does he think his supporters are that thick? How will he spend the EU money on the NHS when we have to pay £40B and the economy shrinks by 5%?

How?

£40Billion over 2 years is roughly £390M a week.

After 2 years, we will stop contributing to the EU, so I think we're covered.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Well, I would equally question the political sense of any member of a Socialist party whose leader is playing right into the hands of the disaster capitalists.

Now he is in effect repeating the Boris bus nonsense! Does he think his supporters are that thick? How will he spend the EU money on the NHS when we have to pay £40B and the economy shrinks by 5%?

How?

Come on now Robert, the £40 billion to EU is over 40 years or so.... considering we are paying £8-9 billion net to EU per year....that's a pretty big saving right there for a start.

 

[Robert]

Come on now Robert, the £40 billion to EU is over 40 years or so.... considering we are paying £8-9 billion net to EU per year....that's a pretty big saving right there for a start.

Except it isn't because for every £1 we put in we get £8 back in exports to the EU and the fifty other nations we have trade deals with via the EU and in not paying import duty in goods from those 78 countries.

All Brexit forecasts say the economy will shrink from 1% to 8%, up to 15% in the Northeast. All that corporation and income tax revenue will vanish, bringing about a further reduction in public services, people will go on the dole and the state will have to pay for them too.

There will be riots.

Socialists are voting for this.

 

[s28]

Well, I would equally question the political sense of any member of a Socialist party whose leader is playing right into the hands of the disaster capitalists.

Oh dear. Join the real world and deal with it as it is not how you fantasise about it.

43% of the population are voting Labour right now because they quite rightly see it as the Party of realism and which will impact on their material condition. You can't change the population you know. Get in line with the will of the people. Do you not understand democracy ?

You sound like some sort of religious fundamentalist demanding purity of thought and ideology with no account of people's wishes and material conditions.

 

[Robert]

Oh dear. Join the real world and deal with it as it is not how you fantasise about it.

43% of the population are voting Labour right now because they quite rightly see it as the Party of realism and which will impact on their material condition. You can't change the population you know. Get in line with the will of the people. Do you not understand democracy ?

You sound like some sort of religious fundamentalist demanding purity of thought and ideology with no account of people's wishes and material conditions.

Strewth, talk about accusing other of that which you are guilty. 43% of voters want to support the disaster capitalists so I should too?

Once again, how will Labour pay for all these good things when the tax base shrinks after Brexit? Don't offer me that unicorns manifesto, tell me how you can do it in this real world you are so fond of referring to.

 

[R3verse Swing]

I would like to point out that any government after Brexit would have difficulty in finding cash, not just Labour.

I'm guessing more austerity, or more QE.

Then again financial predictions have been incorrect, UK economy has done relatively well post Brexit vote predictions.

 

[Robert]

Anyway Corbyn has shown today that he has listened to his members and is opting for a softer Brexit than the Tories, so good for him.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Anyway Corbyn has shown today that he has listened to his members and is opting for a softer Brexit than the Tories, so good for him.

Good for the likes of Starmer, Kinnock, Umuna and co you mean. Corbyn is going down a dangerous path here listening to these snakes who don’t even want the guy as leader - today it was the customs union and tomorrow they’ll push him into keeping us in the single market. And once that is done we will be staying in the EU in all but name and Labour will pay the electoral cost.

 

[s28]

I feel bitterweet about it. If Corbyn wins and they get obliterated at the next GE then maybe they will learn something. Perhaps they will become a fringe party and the Lib Dems will become the Opposition.

Keep the predictions coming guys but have some humility and don't be so sure of yourselves because we can always go back to start of this thread and see how very wrong you've been on EVERYTHING

 

[Robert]

Good for the likes of Starmer, Kinnock, Umuna and co you mean. Corbyn is going down a dangerous path here listening to these snakes who don’t even want the guy as leader - today it was the customs union and tomorrow they’ll push him into keeping us in the single market. And once that is done we will be staying in the EU in all but name and Labour will pay the electoral cost.

Odd. He went up in my estimation a bit today.

Let’s see if this brings about a poll bounce for Labour.

 

[Robert]

Keep the predictions coming guys but have some humility and don't be so sure of yourselves because we can always go back to start of this thread and see how very wrong you've been on EVERYTHING

I didn’t expect May to be quite so awful on the stump, or the Tories to be dumb enough to attack their own base with the dementia tax!

Neither did I expect them to continue to be riven. The Eurosceptics got their Brexit but now are arguing about how hard it should be. They are two parties really - One Nation Tories vs. Brexit headbangers.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=107620]s28[/MENTION] what I do notice is that you and were rather more measured in our posts in 2015

 

[R3verse Swing]

Odd. He went up in my estimation a bit today.

Let’s see if this brings about a poll bounce for Labour.

Well mate, if Corbyn went up in your estimation today, think how the rest of the UK must be reacting.

If the was a GE tomorrow, I think Corbyn would win. TM knows this. She already underestimated Corbyn once.

 

[Markhor]

Good for the likes of Starmer, Kinnock, Umuna and co you mean. Corbyn is going down a dangerous path here listening to these snakes who don’t even want the guy as leader - today it was the customs union and tomorrow they’ll push him into keeping us in the single market. And once that is done we will be staying in the EU in all but name and Labour will pay the electoral cost.

The majority of Labour MEMBERS support staying in the SM and CU.

Are these people snakes too ? Corbyn's CU speech is a reponse to internal pressure but its also a sensible move that keeps our economic interests at heart while still respecting the referendum outcome.

Brexit isn't a big enough issue for Labour Leavers to break with the party anyway. Polls show domestic issues are far more important to them.

 

[R3verse Swing]

The majority of Labour MEMBERS support staying in the SM and CU.

Same applies to Tories.

 

[Markhor]

Same applies to Tories.

That's untrue:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...eed-apart-from-other-main-parties-study-finds

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/20...trasts-between-tories-and-other-parties.html#

Only a quarter of Tory members support membership of the SM and CU compared to 87 and 85% of Labour members who do.

 

[R3verse Swing]

That's untrue:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...eed-apart-from-other-main-parties-study-finds

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/20...trasts-between-tories-and-other-parties.html#

Only a quarter of Tory members support membership of the SM and CU compared to 87 and 85% of Labour members who do.

I stand corrected.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Except it isn't because for every £1 we put in we get £8 back in exports to the EU and the fifty other nations we have trade deals with via the EU and in not paying import duty in goods from those 78 countries.

All Brexit forecasts say the economy will shrink from 1% to 8%, up to 15% in the Northeast. All that corporation and income tax revenue will vanish, bringing about a further reduction in public services, people will go on the dole and the state will have to pay for them too.

There will be riots.

Socialists are voting for this.

It is called trade Robert.... we sell to them, they sell to us. It's not a one way road. Infact being tied to them that artificially raises our prices in certain instances that needn't be the case if we went alone and done deals ourselves.

We have to find new markets, so what, we should be doing that anyway! Why is Ireland in a twizzy? Because their agriculture producers get undercut from cheaper options from outside EU..... they too then have to go find new markets. What about French food and drink producers? German car makers?

It is a forecast, tell me any that was ever correct.

The biggest problem with UK brexit negotiations is that it is being essentially conducted by Remainers whose aim is to talk down the UK and conduct the process so poorly to dupe the people into a name only brexit.

 

[James]

Labour and the Tories are absolutely neck-and-neck in the polls. I think a charismatic Tory leader could secure a majority, however if they take TM into 2022 then she is such a terrible campaigner, so hard to know/read and so difficult to like that I think she would lose. Corbyn is a great doorstep foot soldier and carries such a buzz with him on his A-to-B coach trips in the lead up to a GE that I believe he would pick up the swing votes from May. But if the Tories pull the trigger in 18 months as they should (or if she steps down, also possible) then Moggy or Boris would give Jeremy a contest for the ages.

 

[Robert]

If the Tories get Moggy I could see them winning. He's "authentic" which is apparently important these days.

Some yellow Tories might lean back to the centre though.

All depends on how badly Brexit damages the economy in the short term.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn sacks Owen Smith from shadow cabinet after he called for second EU referendum <a href="https://t.co/ENGGcxfQUi">https://t.co/ENGGcxfQUi</a></p>— BBC Breaking News (@BBCBreaking) <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/977251138826395650?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 23, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Gabbar Singh]

The EU lovers are crying.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Labour front bench clearly determined to be the handmaiden of hard Brexit even though it will do so much damage. At least Owen Smith tried to get a sensible policy. Corbyn etc echo the government line. Shameful.</p>— Alastair Campbell (@campbellclaret) <a href="https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/977257024626085889?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 23, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[James]

Owen Smith looks to me like he has spent far too much time plotting on his sunbed. I would generally not trust such types.

Chuka Umunna’s typically stiff upper-lipped “What has happened to our party” tweet was the funniest, but also I fear the most telling. Add in Peter Hain’s (ridiculous) claims of a “Stalinist purge” and I do worry that Jeremy will face attempted coup after attempted coup from this dreadfully disloyal fifth column.

The Tories are a lot of things, but that relatively tiny Remainer rebel group aside, they are at least sticking together.

Conversely speaking this is why Labour have not sat in government for eight years and counting - nothing to do with Jeremy’s leadership, which has gone from strength to strength since his unlikely ascension, rather it’s down to the divisive public behaviour of the metropolitan privately schooled elite within his party, who are determined for him to fail.

 

[Robert]

So the Shadow NI Sec says CU and SM is essential to preserve peace and prosperity in NI, and gets sacked for taking the same position as 70% of the Labour members and voters.

Corbyn - for the few Lexit ideologues, not the many Labour Remainers, and certainly not for the British citizens of Northern Ireland.

Please, moderate Labour MPs, leave the cultists and join a new centre party. A lot of people are voting Tory just to keep Corbyn out and they will drift back to the middle. Time for SDP2.

 

[R3verse Swing]

So the Shadow NI Sec says CU and SM is essential to preserve peace and prosperity in NI, and gets sacked for taking the same position as 70% of the Labour members and voters.

Corbyn - for the few Lexit ideologues, not the many Labour Remainers, and certainly not for the British citizens of Northern Ireland.

Please, moderate Labour MPs, leave the cultists and join a new centre party. A lot of people are voting Tory just to keep Corbyn out and they will drift back to the middle. Time for SDP2.

Owen Smith lost the leadership battle to Corbyn. It's stands to reason Owen's default position is to oppose Corbyn.

Also I would not say a lot of people are not voting Tory to keep Labour out, the last general election proves this. Alot of people are voting Labour because Corbyn connects with them.

Bottom line is this, the referendum is done. Let democracy and the will of the people play out; there is no need for another referendum.

 

[Robert]

Bottom line is this, the referendum is done. Let democracy and the will of the people play out; there is no need for another referendum.

I will not stand by and watch my country diminished, my people made poorer, my father’s homeland fall back into chaos.

So I took part in a demo today in Exeter. Two thousand of us marched. Ben Bradshaw MP and Wera Hobhouse MP spoke. There were similar demos in Bristol and Leeds. A much larger one is coming in London.

By the end of the year, Parliament will vote on the deal. Scores of Labour MPs will defy Corbyn and vote against. If the bill is defeated there will either be a general election, or more likely a referendum on the deal.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

I will not stand by and watch my country diminished, my people made poorer, my father’s homeland fall back into chaos.

So I took part in a demo today in Exeter. Two thousand of us marched. Ben Bradshaw MP and Wera Hobhouse MP spoke. There were similar demos in Bristol and Leeds. A much larger one is coming in London.

By the end of the year, Parliament will vote on the deal. Scores of Labour MPs will defy Corbyn and vote against. If the bill is defeated there will either be a general election, or more likely a referendum on the deal.

You do realise that if MPs vote against the deal then we simply fall out of the EU with no deal whatsoever? Ironically those who vote down the bill will actually enable the hardest Brexit possible.

 

[Robert]

You do realise that if MPs vote against the deal then we simply fall out of the EU with no deal whatsoever? Ironically those who vote down the bill will actually enable the hardest Brexit possible.

Not true. A50 can be revoked at any time. Let the people vote on the deal.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Not true. A50 can be revoked at any time. Let the people vote on the deal.

Meanwhile in the real world....

It’s pretty clear to all that if the deal is voted down in parliament then we simply crash out of Europe. Is that what you really want? Actually it would be the ultimate irony - EU lovers voting down the deal which in turn would lead to the most extreme Brexit possible.

 

[James]

No way would Article 50 be revoked. If enough Brits wanted a second referendum then more than 3 million people would have voted Lib Dem and Green last year. Instead the Libs underperformed woefully and the Green vote collapsed. The British people on the whole (whether Remain or Leave voters) are now ready to depart the EU and want to make the best of the situation. As was proven last year at the ballot box, only the Tories or Labour are currently trusted to run our government, which is an entirely Brexiting government. Fact. End of.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Technically A50 can be revoked anytime, but if it is, it will be the day democracy dies and ignominious death in the UK. The ramifications of such are far worse than pulling out of the EU.

 

[James]

Corbyn has apologised for the anti-semitism that exists in “pockets” of the party and pledged to sort it out.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Interesting.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Very powerful letter by the Board of Deputies of British Jews and Jewish Leadership Council on Labour anti-Semitism row. <a href="https://t.co/RF83xuORyZ">pic.twitter.com/RF83xuORyZ</a></p>— Kevin Schofield (@PolhomeEditor) <a href="https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/978014010032508929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 25, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Robert]

Meanwhile in the real world....

It’s pretty clear to all that if the deal is voted down in parliament then we simply crash out of Europe. Is that what you really want? Actually it would be the ultimate irony - EU lovers voting down the deal which in turn would lead to the most extreme Brexit possible.

It isn’t clear to all, because it isn’t clear to me. How is it clear to you?

 

[Robert]

Corbyn has apologised for the anti-semitism that exists in “pockets” of the party and pledged to sort it out.

With another whitewash inquiry? Talk is cheap. Let’s see him grasp the nettle.

 

[Robert]

Technically A50 can be revoked anytime, but if it is, it will be the day democracy dies and ignominious death in the UK. The ramifications of such are far worse than pulling out of the EU.

The people can revoke A50, by holding a referendum on the deal.

But I think we will slowly drift toward a soft Norway style Brexit, and be back as full member before the end of my life.

 

[Yossarian]

With another whitewash inquiry? Talk is cheap. Let’s see him grasp the nettle.

Interesting.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Very powerful letter by the Board of Deputies of British Jews and Jewish Leadership Council on Labour anti-Semitism row. <a href="https://t.co/RF83xuORyZ">pic.twitter.com/RF83xuORyZ</a></p>— Kevin Schofield (@PolhomeEditor) <a href="https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/978014010032508929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 25, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

It's virtually at the stage now whereby watching on youtube (assuming it's not been pulled and banned) an episode of some old tv sitcom, such as "Never Mind the Quality, Feel the Width", or clips of the stand-up comedian Jacke Mason (who's Jewish), is likely to have you labelled as being a vile anti-Semite.

 

[s28]

A Jewish son of a Rabbi has been hounded out of the Labour Party having been accused of antisemitism !
A child of Holocaust survivors was last week up in front of Labour Compliance kangaroo court charged with ... wait for it... antisemitism !

We've jumped the shark here. All the Establishment attacks on Corbyn and the Left simply demonstrate their desperation and reinforces in the mind of the population that Corbyn is THE anti-Establishment candidate so he wins the votes of the disaffected which is probably around 51-99% of the population

 

[s28]

Jewish Voice For Labour are calling out the Board of Deputies and Jewish Leadership Council for their disgusting weaponisation of antisemitism as a political tool

BoD are basically just Zionists
JLC is run by Tories

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jenny Manson of Jewish Voice for Labour defends Jeremy Corbyn over his mural comment and says accusations of anti-Semitism are "under any analysis not true" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/bbcdp?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#bbcdp</a> <a href="https://t.co/Vi5jPM98gQ">pic.twitter.com/Vi5jPM98gQ</a></p>— BBC Daily Politics and Sunday Politics (@daily_politics) <a href="https://twitter.com/daily_politics/status/978231398061375488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">26 March 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[James]

As someone who comes from a Judeo-Christian cultural background, this does all seem a little bit over the top. There have been some genuinely poor comments from a few individuals - some plainly inaccurate, others less inaccurate but nonetheless falling into the best left unsaid category - however these instances have been dealt with promptly from what I can see. A few bad eggs does not indicate a systemic problem within an entire organisation IMO.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Criticising Zionism is not the same as being anti-Semitic.

 

[Robert]

Meanwhile in the real world....

It’s pretty clear to all that if the deal is voted down in parliament then we simply crash out of Europe.

And in the real world, Sir Keir has today said this isn’t going to happen. There will be a fallback position which is not hard Brexit.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

And in the real world, Sir Keir has today said this isn’t going to happen. There will be a fallback position which is not hard Brexit.

Others disagree.

Labour will have to vote for final Brexit deal to avoid crashing out of EU, Shadow Cabinet member suggests

Rob Merrick Deputy Political Editor
Monday 26 March 2018 12:57 BST
Labour will have to vote for the final Brexit deal because of the risk of crashing out of the EU with no agreement if it is rejected, a key Shadow Cabinet member has suggested.

Barry Gardiner told an event in Germany that he agreed that a chaotic Brexit was “the consequence of there being no deal”, according to a transcript – warning that was the aim of “the far right”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...w-cabinet-member-barry-gardiner-a8274261.html

 

[James]

Criticising Zionism is not the same as being anti-Semitic.

Agree, as long as it is actual criticism of Zionism that is happening and not anti-Semitism. In my experience sometimes the two things happen at the same time, sometimes they do not.

 

[Robert]

Criticising Zionism is not the same as being anti-Semitic.

However, anti-Semites often use “Zionism” as a dog-whistle to their Nazi mates.

 

[Robert]

Agree, as long as it is actual criticism of Zionism that is happening and not anti-Semitism. In my experience sometimes the two things happen at the same time, sometimes they do not.

Good point, I agree.

 

[R3verse Swing]

However, anti-Semites often use “Zionism” as a dog-whistle to their Nazi mates.

Does this mean you agree criticising Zionism is not the same as being anti-Semitic?

When you say *Anti-Semites* often use Zionism, who and what defines the anti-Semites in this case? Who are these Nazi mates you speak of?

 

[s28]

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Israeli Minister admits Anti-semitism is a smear to shut down debate<br>"Anti-semitism is a trick, we always use it" - Shulamit Aloni <a href="https://t.co/N4ohCSgtKM">pic.twitter.com/N4ohCSgtKM</a></p>— The Truth Hurts (@TheBirmingham6) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheBirmingham6/status/783118571333378048?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">4 October 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You can agree that anti-Semitism is definitely a problem on some parts of the left and needs to be loudly denounced while also agreeing that Jeremy Corbyn’s political opponents are cynically using it as a stick with which to beat him. You can walk and chew gum at the same time.</p>— Mehdi Hasan (@mehdirhasan) <a href="https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/978384794311643136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 26, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[James]

Mehdi sums it up very well as usual.

 

[s28]

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Brilliant from Graham Bash of <a href="https://twitter.com/JVoiceLabour?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@JVoiceLabour</a> h/t <a href="https://twitter.com/TheFabledAesop?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TheFabledAesop</a> <br>This really does distil the issues and exposes the Right Wing agenda for what it is<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/EnoughIsEnough?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#EnoughIsEnough</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/JC4PM?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#JC4PM</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ChangeIsComing?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ChangeIsComing</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/HadleyFreeman?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@HadleyFreeman</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@jessicaelgot</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/maitlis?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@maitlis</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/bbclaurak?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@bbclaurak</a> <a href="https://t.co/QF8y3FQKQJ">pic.twitter.com/QF8y3FQKQJ</a></p>— The Truth Hurts (@TheBirmingham6) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheBirmingham6/status/978776742566473730?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">27 March 2018</a></blockquote>
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[James]

Very articulate statement from the guy, puts the furore to bed to be fair.

I feel that a lot of this sentiment stems from the Ken Livingstone case, just my opinion but I completely disagree with the way he has conducted himself over the last few years, and really they should progress his suspension into expulsion. That would surely allow everyone to move on from this rather peculiar juncture.

 

[Robert]

Does this mean you agree criticising Zionism is not the same as being anti-Semitic?

When you say *Anti-Semites* often use Zionism, who and what defines the anti-Semites in this case? Who are these Nazi mates you speak of?

I think criticism of the actions of the state of Israel can be legitimate as long as one is specific and avoids generalisation.

I would avoid using the term Zionism altogether as this can very quickly become blurred into racism.

 

[fiza200]

Are you going to give vote to this party?

 

[R3verse Swing]

I think criticism of the actions of the state of Israel can be legitimate as long as one is specific and avoids generalisation.

I would avoid using the term Zionism altogether as this can very quickly become blurred into racism.

Zionism is a political movement, has nothing to do with race.

 

[Robert]

Zionism is a political movement, has nothing to do with race.

But it is also a generalised term that can also be used as a dog whistle for racists and is therefore easily misunderstood, so for that reason I would avoid it altogether.

‘Soros’ is another example of a dog whistle which I heard on the march the other day. It was made by fascists who implied that the marchers were useful idiots for the alleged ‘International Jewish Conspiracy’.
[MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] sums this up better than I further up.

 

[barah_admi]

It is quite sad how the Jewish lobby has attacked Labour so heavily in the last couple years. In my short life, every time a leader has come around who may actually benefit society and not just capitalism, the anti-semite brigade comes out in force. The GUardian is the greatest perpetrator of this, printing story after false story. I remember a while back they printed that anti-semitism was on the rise in London, yet official figures f rom the London Met police showed a 34% decrease in anti-semitic crime in the capital.

Great work Guardian!

 

[s28]

The Zionists know their 'brand' is toxic so are trying to shut down free speech on it. I think it demands people of good conscience to continue to use the term and not allow themselves to give in to such censorship.

 

[s28]

It is quite sad how the Jewish lobby has attacked Labour so heavily in the last couple years. In my short life, every time a leader has come around who may actually benefit society and not just capitalism, the anti-semite brigade comes out in force. The GUardian is the greatest perpetrator of this, printing story after false story. I remember a while back they printed that anti-semitism was on the rise in London, yet official figures f rom the London Met police showed a 34% decrease in anti-semitic crime in the capital.

Great work Guardian!

There are luckily good ex-Guardian Jewish writers who are able to speak the truth from outside of that neoliberal echo chamber e.g. Jonathan Cook

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2018-03-27/the-anti-semitism-paradox-damaging-labour/

 

[KingKhanWC]

But it is also a generalised term that can also be used as a dog whistle for racists and is therefore easily misunderstood, so for that reason I would avoid it altogether.

‘Soros’ is another example of a dog whistle which I heard on the march the other day. It was made by fascists who implied that the marchers were useful idiots for the alleged ‘International Jewish Conspiracy’.

[MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] sums this up better than I further up.

You can't be serious?

Zionism is arguably the biggest threat to the world today. It's a political movement which is extreme in nature and facist in practice. Most Zionists are not Jews and Zionists are using Jews or more accurately the Holocaust industry to silence criticism of Israeli apartheid and terrorism.

Zionism should be used more and more so people understand what it is.

 

[irfan]

Zionism is a political movement that by its very nature is settler colonialism so why can't we speak about it?The arch Zionist historian Benny Morris himself admits that in built into Zionism is the idea of population transfer ie racist ethnic cleansing.

 

[barah_admi]

There are luckily good ex-Guardian Jewish writers who are able to speak the truth from outside of that neoliberal echo chamber e.g. Jonathan Cook

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2018-03-27/the-anti-semitism-paradox-damaging-labour/

Just bookmarked that to have a read later. Good stuff.

 

[James]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43578225

Another resignation over the alleged antisemitism thing, this one is pretty embarrassing to be honest however I do suspect that the media are just going after anything and everything now to try and prove a point about the Labour Party.

 

[Robert]

You can't be serious?

Zionism is arguably the biggest threat to the world today. It's a political movement which is extreme in nature and facist in practice. Most Zionists are not Jews and Zionists are using Jews or more accurately the Holocaust industry to silence criticism of Israeli apartheid and terrorism.

Zionism should be used more and more so people understand what it is.

To these eyes you have made the sort of generalisation that Islamophobes like to make about Islam, about taqqiya and population takeover and Sharia enforcement and dhimmi and so on.

I think the biggest threats to the world are climate change and nuclear war.

 

[Robert]

It is quite sad how the Jewish lobby has attacked Labour so heavily in the last couple years. In my short life, every time a leader has come around who may actually benefit society and not just capitalism, the anti-semite brigade comes out in force. The GUardian is the greatest perpetrator of this, printing story after false story. I remember a while back they printed that anti-semitism was on the rise in London, yet official figures f rom the London Met police showed a 34% decrease in anti-semitic crime in the capital.

Great work Guardian!

I think you are making a racist assumption here: that Jews are rich and fear socialism. Kinnock and Smith wanted the same sort of programme as Corbyn, and “the anti-semite brigade” didn’t come out in force then.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Jews are over represented in business, banking, the media, the arts etc. This isn’t an anti Semitic statement to make it’s a fact (and a compliment) - through hard work and intelligence they are overachievers and good for them. Why do they take this as an insult?

 

[Robert]

Jews are over represented in business, banking, the media, the arts etc. This isn’t an anti Semitic statement to make it’s a fact (and a compliment) - through hard work and intelligence they are overachievers and good for them. Why do they take this as an insult?

I don’t know about taking insult but I would avoid that stereotype. I made pretty much your comment to a Jewish lady, praising her people for their success. She immediately countered with “So does your classic WASP always succeed too?” I could have commented that I’m not all Anglo-Saxon, but her satire was accurate in that I had made a broad unquantified generalisation.

 

[James]

I don’t know about taking insult but I would avoid that stereotype. I made pretty much your comment to a Jewish lady, praising her people for their success. She immediately countered with “So does your classic WASP always succeed too?” I could have commented that I’m not all Anglo-Saxon, but her satire was accurate in that I had made a broad unquantified generalisation.

It’s not a stereotype though, it’s strongly supported statistically.

 

[James]

Jews are over represented in business, banking, the media, the arts etc. This isn’t an anti Semitic statement to make it’s a fact (and a compliment) - through hard work and intelligence they are overachievers and good for them. Why do they take this as an insult?

I wouldn’t consider this fact to be antisemitic. I also wouldn’t go around talking to Jews about it in case it was taken the wrong way - but let’s be honest, as a community they have done extremely well and this should be recognised.