Labour leadership: Result will be announced on 4 April [Post #1698]

[Robert]

There are approx 250,000 people of the Jewish faith in the UK. Being generous in terms of those who are likely to vote (ie excluding those below the voting age, and those who don't vote at all) makes around 150,000 Jewish voters.


That equates to roughly 45,000 Jewish voters who would normally vote Labour. You seriously trying to say that all of this mass coverage throughout the summer of alleged anti-semitism in the Labour Party is over 45,000 Jewish Labour voters (less actually since not all British Jews agree with the storm cooked up) making a significant difference to the election prospects of Labour winning a General Election?

If you truly believe that the MP's who are members of Labour Friends of Israel, Conservative Friends of Israel etc. is purely down to the desire to attract Jewish voters, and nothing to do with the power of the Jewish lobby then I guess you're also likely to believe that the power of the Jewish lobby in the USA and the power of AIPAC is purely down to numbers of Jewish voters, and nothing to do with money, power and influence in American politics.

This is the UK.

Does it occur to you that it could be both those reasons? I am sure that certain Jewish financiers donate to certain parties - indeed one founded UKIP - and yet at the same time the Jewish vote is critical in some North London constituencies. A couple more MPs could make a difference if there is another hung Parliament.

 

[James]

Surprising to see the British Jewish vote being underestimated and a “could take them or leave them” approach being applied to the whole community.

The 2011 Census figures for the British Jewish population are now somewhat out of date and there has been growth in Jewish populations within London and the North East since then.

There are now estimated to be 300,000 British Jews. A lot of them would prefer to vote for Labour (and historically have done so), but it is unlikely that many of them will at the moment. Recently the turnout amongst British Jews has been strong and they have mostly been voting for the Tories.

Moreover I have never heard of a political party that could not do with a few extra votes!

Most importantly, the influence of British Jews goes far beyond 300,000 people, because Jews here (just like in many other countries) have worked hard and backed each other to ensure significant and sustained overrepresentation in public life.

The bottom line is, it is an important community to work alongside, and it is not overly “Rothschild Foundation” or “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” to recognise that whichever political party is the most friendly towards British Jews is bound to reap the benefits of doing so.

 

[GBK_Fan]

Interesting to see posters here dismiss the concerns of an entire community as irrelevant. Tells you that the accusations of anti Semitism through the summer had some weight.

 

[Yossarian]

The bottom line is, it is an important community to work alongside, and it is not overly “Rothschild Foundation” or “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” to recognise that whichever political party is the most friendly towards British Jews is bound to reap the benefits of doing so.

Interesting to see posters here dismiss the concerns of an entire community as irrelevant. Tells you that the accusations of anti Semitism through the summer had some weight.

From the Guardian which has been leading the accusations against Corbyn being anti-Semitic, with daily articles and opinion pieces.

Israeli diplomat who plotted against MPs also set up political groups

Shai Masot is filmed covertly as he boasts about establishing several groups, at least one intended to influence Labour policy

An Israeli embassy official who plotted to “take down” MPs regarded as hostile has also set up a number of political organisations in the UK that operated as though entirely independent.

Shai Masot was filmed covertly as he boasted about establishing several groups, at least one of which was intended to influence Labour party policy, while appearing to obscure their links to Israel.

The disclosure comes as Labour demanded the government launch an immediate inquiry into “improper interference in our democratic politics”. A former Tory government minister also called for an inquiry into the Israeli embassy’s links with two organisations, Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI) and Labour Friends of Israel (LFI).

[...]

In his LinkedIn profile, Masot says his work includes “founding several political support groups in the UK to maximise the Israeli ‘firewall’”. He also says he helped to secure “adjustments to legislation” in the UK.

[...]

A senior Conservative said: “No MP who has taken an active interest in the affairs of the Middle East, not least the central issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, will be unaware of the strength of the Israeli lobby. Like Israel itself they are powerful and effective and sail pretty close to the line of what is normally acceptable.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ed-against-mps-set-up-political-groups-labour

 

[Robert]

From the Guardian which has been leading the accusations against Corbyn being anti-Semitic, with daily articles and opinion pieces.

What's your point? Of course foreign intelligence agencies attempt to influence our politics, just as MI6 attempts to influence theirs. This is not evidence of an "International Jewish Conspiracy", it's realpolitik.

 

[Yossarian]

What's your point? Of course foreign intelligence agencies attempt to influence our politics, just as MI6 attempts to influence theirs. This is not evidence of an "International Jewish Conspiracy", it's realpolitik.

The article doesn't just mention influencing foreign policy, but the foreign power actually financing groups to “take down” MPs regarded as hostile to its policies.

So you're OK with a foreign power's attempts to "take down" Members of the UK Parliament, and for groups of MP's having links to the same foreign power (Labour Friends of Israel and Conservative Friends of Israel)?

A former Tory government minister also called for an inquiry into the Israeli embassy’s links with two organisations, Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI) and Labour Friends of Israel (LFI).

 

[GBK_Fan]

From the Guardian which has been leading the accusations against Corbyn being anti-Semitic, with daily articles and opinion pieces.

A local Labour Party vote was shown on a banned Iranian tv channel. Do you also believe it’s a smoking gun that the party is being taken over by islamists posing as left wingers?

 

[Robert]

The article doesn't just mention influencing foreign policy, but the foreign power actually financing groups to “take down” MPs regarded as hostile to its policies.

So you're OK with a foreign power's attempts to "take down" Members of the UK Parliament, and for groups of MP's having links to the same foreign power (Labour Friends of Israel and Conservative Friends of Israel)?

Of course not, but it's going to happen. They do it to us, we do it to them. Britain wrote the book on dirty tricks abroad!

I'm more worried about the corrosion of our democratic institutions by Russian oligarch money, and how London's financial sector is effectively their money-laundering operation. Israel isn't pointing nukes at us, and Russia is.

 

[Yossarian]

A local Labour Party vote was shown on a banned Iranian tv channel. Do you also believe it’s a smoking gun that the party is being taken over by islamists posing as left wingers?

A big difference between, as you rightly say, a banned foreign tv channel, and The Guardian, one of the respected mainstream newspapers not just in Britain, but the world. Heck even Trump is aware, and wary, of The Guardian and it's investigative journalism.

 

[Robert]

A big difference between, as you rightly say, a banned foreign tv channel, and The Guardian, one of the respected mainstream newspapers not just in Britain, but the world. Heck even Trump is aware, and wary, of The Guardian and it's investigative journalism.

Carole Cadwalladr has played a blinder this year.

 

[s28]

Up and down the Country the people (especially the young people) are demanding Corbyn

Cornwall...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The chants of <a href="https://twitter.com/UKLabour?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@UKLabour</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@jeremycorbyn</a> were deafening last night at <a href="https://twitter.com/boardmasters?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@boardmasters</a> Festival where I DJed for <a href="https://twitter.com/PropagandaClub?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PropagandaClub</a> & <a href="https://twitter.com/SilentDiscoKing?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@SilentDiscoKing</a>! It was the biggest Silent Disco ever in the world! 18k people! <a href="https://t.co/nZHosP8Zbm">pic.twitter.com/nZHosP8Zbm</a></p>— DJ Dan (@DjDanPropaganda) <a href="https://twitter.com/DjDanPropaganda/status/1027853210067890176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">10 August 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[s28]

Reading...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">More incredible <a href="https://twitter.com/UKLabour?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@UKLabour</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@jeremycorbyn</a> chants DJing last night at <a href="https://twitter.com/OfficialRandL?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@OfficialRandL</a> Reading Festival Silent Disco for <a href="https://twitter.com/PropagandaClub?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PropagandaClub</a> & <a href="https://twitter.com/SilentDiscoKing?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@SilentDiscoKing</a>! Across the country the voices for change can’t be ignored! <a href="https://t.co/nmP9Avl8J0">pic.twitter.com/nmP9Avl8J0</a></p>— DJ Dan (@DjDanPropaganda) <a href="https://twitter.com/DjDanPropaganda/status/1033368543860023296?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">25 August 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Robert]

Up and down the Country the people (especially the young people) are demanding Corbyn

Cornwall...

At Boardmasters? Loads of kids from over the Tamar, not so many locals. Labour's best chance in Cornwall is probably Camborne & Redruth, due to the poverty. Now if only Cornwall would stop electing six Tories.

 

[s28]

Labour won Canterbury and Kensington last time

I don't think any seats are out of reach anymore. The Tories were kept afloat by UKIP (directly not contesting seats or losing voters to Cons) at last Election. Once they have delivered Tory Brexit disaster I expect Labour under Corbyn to poll 50%.

Have been very impressed by the Corbyn/McDonnell economic offer. They really get it and are coming up with some great innovative policies. The biggest thing is simply to offer the hope of something better at a macro level but the micro changes will I think make the economy more equal/equitable and that in itself could boost efficiency/productivity and long term growth.

 

[Robert]

Well. There’s the rub @s28. After Tory Brexit Disaster there won’t be enough tax revenue for Labour’s social programmes.

 

[Robert]

So at a time when we are spending as much on servicing the national debt as on defence, the only alternative is another IMF loan.

At a time when we are locking ourselves out of tariff-free access to 42% of our export market.

Result: devaluated currency, rampant inflation and unemployment - which is what ushered in the Thatcher era.

 

[GBK_Fan]

So at a time when we are spending as much on servicing the national debt as on defence, the only alternative is another IMF loan.

At a time when we are locking ourselves out of tariff-free access to 42% of our export market.

Result: devaluated currency, rampant inflation and unemployment - which is what ushered in the Thatcher era.

Another worrying cause is the reluctance of the PM in waiting to even engage with the industry. There are contingency plans in place to move working staff to EU and a lot of people are moving already. If there is a probability of Labour winning, you will probably see an exodus of high skilled/paying jobs moving to Europe.

 

[s28]

Well. There’s the rub @s28. After Tory Brexit Disaster there won’t be enough tax revenue for Labour’s social programmes.

This is economic illiteracy.

You don't spend Government money out of tax revenue.

At the end of the Second World War British Debt to GDP was 250%. Britain still in the following years built the NHS AND the Atom Bomb.

 

[s28]

Another worrying cause is the reluctance of the PM in waiting to even engage with the industry. There are contingency plans in place to move working staff to EU and a lot of people are moving already. If there is a probability of Labour winning, you will probably see an exodus of high skilled/paying jobs moving to Europe.

More nonsense. Do you a rational economic agent leave your job, sell your house, take your kids out of their school, every time someone offers a few quid more a few hundred miles away?

 

[GBK_Fan]

More nonsense. Do you a rational economic agent leave your job, sell your house, take your kids out of their school, every time someone offers a few quid more a few hundred miles away?

You sir have no idea how the world works. There are salaried guys working in London who don’t pay taxes here, even now. At 50%+ tax rates it makes a lot of sense

 

[Thulsa]

You sir have no idea how the world works. There are salaried guys working in London who don’t pay taxes here, even now. At 50%+ tax rates it makes a lot of sense

Precisely. Even now, many such individuals and their respective corporations, are sitting on their contingencies, and ready to act should there be a hard Brexit. I know my firm is one of many.

The irony is that those being raged against by labour are the ones most able to absorb the negative consequences of a hard Brexit.
[MENTION=107620]s28[/MENTION] - if you are going to copy and paste economic theory straight out of a text book, you should realise that central to what you typed is a stable currency - which we will not have, hence Robert’s comment.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

This is economic illiteracy.

You don't spend Government money out of tax revenue.

Someone should tell Corbyn and his team then - they are the ones who want to raise tax levels to meet their spending goals.

Are you saying that Corbyn, McDonnell, Dianne Abbott etc are economically illiterate when they talk about raising taxes to balance the books?

 

[Robert]

This is economic illiteracy.

You don't spend Government money out of tax revenue.

At the end of the Second World War British Debt to GDP was 250%. Britain still in the following years built the NHS AND the Atom Bomb.

Ah, you see even this economic iliterate knows that you pay off government debt with increased tax revenue, or by shrinking state spending, or a combination of both, or selling government bonds.

1. UK enjoyed a 5% budget surplus in 1945, and a massive heavy industry and manufacturing base due to the wartime economy, while Europe was smashed, so we were able to trade our way out of the debt your mention by 1970. Tax on industry from that trade boom was used to pay off the debt. These days we are not in 5% surplus, we are still in deficit and the manufacturing sector is a fraction the size and liable to get smaller if firms walk after Tory Brexit Shambles.

2. The NHS and British nuclear programe were set up at a time of the *real* austerity - food rationing, make-do-and-mend, nothing in the shops, bomb sites everywhere. People got weary of it, and they were used to hardship in a way that their grandchildren are not. This saw the great man Attlee unceremoniously dumped out of office in 1951 despite his massive 1945 majority and the Tories return until 1964. This is what I see happening again if Corbyn becomes PM of a country with a much weaker economy than in 1945.

 

[s28]

LOL

There's too much nonsense to correct there but this takes the biscuit...

"a much weaker economy than in 1945"

 

[s28]

Someone should tell Corbyn and his team then - they are the ones who want to raise tax levels to meet their spending goals.

Are you saying that Corbyn, McDonnell, Dianne Abbott etc are economically illiterate when they talk about raising taxes to balance the books?

They are raising some tax (e.g. the Tobin tax will raise c.£5bn a year)
They are intending to spend £500bn re-nationalising and re-investing in Infrastructure and Jobs.

If you buy a house do you only count the mortgage as a liability on your personal balance sheet and take no acccount of the asset ? You can easily afford to 'add £500bn' to the Government debt if you've added equal amount of assets, which will pay a rate of return which helps to service the debt

It's pretty much how the entire LBO/MBO market works. None of the Investment Banks / Private Equity houses which do those have any 'tax raising' power funnily enough. Indeed they tend to gear up their balance sheets to achieve higher return on equity.

 

[Robert]

LOL

There's too much nonsense to correct there but this takes the biscuit...

"a much weaker economy than in 1945"

Having no counter-arguments, you once again resort to ridicule and negation.

 

[s28]

Conference was a huge triumph for Corbyn

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Analysis: <a href="https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@lewis_goodall</a> explains how four years on, Jeremy Corbyn really is 'king of all he surveys' <a href="https://t.co/f5pS9miuC7">https://t.co/f5pS9miuC7</a></p>— Sky News (@SkyNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1044979878452502529?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">26 September 2018</a></blockquote>
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[James]

YouGov has Labour on 36% and the Tories on 42%, still. Quite shocked by that actually.

 

[Robert]

YouGov has Labour on 36% and the Tories on 42%, still. Quite shocked by that actually.

Might change after the disaster of Brexit. The Tories are going to look completely useless.

 

[s28]

YouGov has Labour on 36% and the Tories on 42%, still. Quite shocked by that actually.

You still believe polls when Tories were '20 points ahead' of Labour in April 2018 ?

They're meaningless.

 

[Robert]

You still believe polls when Tories were '20 points ahead' of Labour in April 2018 ?

They're meaningless.

Usually the pollsters are right.

The only time I can recall them getting it wrong was 2015 when they, and I were sure Milliband would win.

Or maybe 1992 when the pollsters were deceived by ‘shy Tories’.

They showed the gap closing and closing in 2017, as Labour unveiled their attractive manifesto and the Tories shot themselves in the feet repeatedly with robotic May performances and policies which hurt their own voter base such as the dementia tax.

 

[barah_admi]

Usually the pollsters are right.

The only time I can recall them getting it wrong was 2015 when they, and I were sure Milliband would win.

Or maybe 1992 when the pollsters were deceived by ‘shy Tories’.

They showed the gap closing and closing in 2017, as Labour unveiled their attractive manifesto and the Tories shot themselves in the feet repeatedly with robotic May performances and policies which hurt their own voter base such as the dementia tax.

Polls were grossly wrong on the EU referendum, from YouGov to Ipsos Mori to Populus to ORB to ICM and so on and so forth.

They were wrong on many occasions on the other side of the Atlantic regarding Trump.

Polls greatly underestimated Corbyn, Labour and the potential of a hung parliament.

Polls are exactly that, a gauging of opinions, carried out on sample sizes which may not necessarily represent everyone because, believe it or not, a few thousand does not represent millions. On top of that they are devised by people/groups looking to influence opinions, not to simply present opinions. They work by people thinking "oh wow, everyone seems to be "insert opinion"...I should do that too".

I just hope this time it massively backfires because Labour's policies are getting better day by day.

 

[Robert]

Polls were grossly wrong on the EU referendum, from YouGov to Ipsos Mori to Populus to ORB to ICM and so on and so forth.

Thy were out by 2%.

The Referendum was swung on the final day by a ton of highly targeted racist and xenophobic ads on social media. There wasn’t time for the pollsters to correct their prediction.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I join Chomsky, Varoufakis, Loach, Eno and 22 others in condemning the British media for bias in its reporting on antisemitism claims against <a href="https://twitter.com/UKLabour?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@UKLabour</a>. <br><br>New research by MRC shows “overwhelming source imbalance” and “systematic reporting failures”. <a href="https://t.co/kzhG4c0ex5">https://t.co/kzhG4c0ex5</a></p>— Jason Hickel (@jasonhickel) <a href="https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1046463382965153792?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 30, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Bad news for Apprentice fans.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uPCev3F49A0?start=82" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Do Corbyn supporters still have hope in their man becoming PM? Given he’s up against such a joke of a PM surely Labour should be miles ahead in the opinion polls by now?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Our poll tracker puts Labour ahead of the Conservatives by a tiny 0.3%:<br><br>Lab: 38.4%<br>Con: 38.1%<br>LDem: 8.6%<br>UKIP: 5.2%<br>Grn: 3.4%<br><br>Keep an eye on the polls as things develop here: <a href="https://t.co/spVpGNV8oG">https://t.co/spVpGNV8oG</a> <a href="https://t.co/EqjUSw9QQo">pic.twitter.com/EqjUSw9QQo</a></p>— Britain Elects (@britainelects) <a href="https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1085265505244626944?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 15, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Robert]

He could have gone to see the PM like Sturgeon and Cable, but gave a speech in Hastings.

He has no interest in stopping Brexit. He wants it to happen.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Zionists wont allow him to be PM even if it means the country goes to hell. UK is not a democracy, people are chosen into power and not by the public.

 

[MenInG]

Seven MPs have resigned from the Labour Party in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's approach to Brexit and anti-Semitism.

They are: Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger, Chris Leslie, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes, Gavin Shuker and Ann Coffey.

Ms Berger said Labour had become institutionally anti-Semitic and she was "embarrassed and ashamed" to stay.

Mr Corbyn said he was "disappointed" the MPs had felt unable to continue working for the policies that "inspired millions" at the 2017 election.

The MPs are not launching a new political party - they will sit in Parliament as the Independent group.

But Chuka Umunna said they had "taken the first step" and urged other Labour MPs - and members of other parties - to join them in "building a new politics".

"Politics is broken, it doesn't have to be this way. Let's change it," he said at a launch event in central London.

'Painful but necessary decision'
Each of the seven took turns to explain their personal reasons for quitting the party.

Ms Berger said: "This morning we have all now resigned from the Labour Party. This has been a very difficult, painful, but necessary decision.

"We represent different parts of the country, we are of different backgrounds, we were born of different generations, but we all share the same values.

"From today, we will all sit in Parliament as a new independent group of MPs."

Chris Leslie said Labour had been "hijacked" by the far left.

Mike Gapes said: "I am sickened that Labour is now perceived by many as a racist, anti-Semitic party."

He added that it was "increasingly clear that prominent figures in the Corbyn Labour leadership do not want to stop Brexit".

Ms Berger initially introduced herself as "the Labour Party MP", before correcting herself and saying: "I am the Member of Parliament for Liverpool Wavertree."

In a statement, Mr Corbyn said: "I am disappointed that these MPs have felt unable to continue to work together for the Labour policies that inspired millions at the last election and saw us increase our vote by the largest share since 1945.

"Labour won people over on a programme for the many not the few - redistributing wealth and power, taking vital resources into public ownership, investing in every region and nation, and tackling climate change.

"The Conservative government is bungling Brexit, while Labour has set out a unifying and credible plan.

"When millions are facing the misery of Universal Credit, rising crime, homelessness, poverty, now more than ever is the time to bring people together to build a better future for all of us."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47278902

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">UK MPs Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger, Chris Leslie, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes, Gavin Shuker and Ann Coffey quit Labour <a href="https://t.co/HXhplLVwro">https://t.co/HXhplLVwro</a></p>— BBC Breaking News (@BBCBreaking) <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1097439912494878720?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 18, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jeremy Corbyn has denied bullying exists on a "wide scale" in the Labour Party, telling Sky News he disagrees with comments made by his deputy leader.<br><br>Read the full interview here: <a href="https://t.co/wXR1yYmLOc">https://t.co/wXR1yYmLOc</a> <a href="https://t.co/i48Xz26FHh">pic.twitter.com/i48Xz26FHh</a></p>— Sky News (@SkyNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1099322994734886914?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">23 February 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Gabbar Singh]

A bad day at the polls for Corbyn - although he doesn’t agree with that assertion.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jeremy Corbyn says "the swings to Labour in many parts of the country show that we can win seats in a general election", despite losing seats in the local elections. <a href="https://t.co/d1fEDAVOd1">pic.twitter.com/d1fEDAVOd1</a></p>— Channel 4 News (@Channel4News) <a href="https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1124265025873567747?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 3, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Technics 1210]

Zionists wont allow him to be PM even if it means the country goes to hell. UK is not a democracy, people are chosen into power and not by the public.

Zionists are trying though, their standard modus operandi is in full swing. Zionist controlled media has been trying to smear him in the public since the day he was elected leader as Labour party. They've tried everything possible, from accusing him of being a communist to a terrorist sympathizer, and of course, antisemitism.

A key note is the previous Labour leader, Ed Milliband, is a Jew, but the Labour party didn't have an anti-Semitic problem/image during his tenure! What a coincidence, NOT!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Zionists are trying though, their standard modus operandi is in full swing. Zionist controlled media has been trying to smear him in the public since the day he was elected leader as Labour party. They've tried everything possible, from accusing him of being a communist to a terrorist sympathizer, and of course, antisemitism.

A key note is the previous Labour leader, Ed Milliband, is a Jew, but the Labour party didn't have an anti-Semitic problem/image during his tenure! What a coincidence, NOT!

The problem is in the UK we have some very smart people but most are clueless when it comes to politics and are nothing more than sheep eating whats fed to them.

Then we have the Tories who have a bigger Islamaphobia problem, heck their next leader is going to be Boris who said black people have watermelon smiles and women wearing the burka are like letterboxers but the media doesn't bring this up reguarly if at all now.

This is a big flaw in democracy where each man has a vote but when so many are uneducated or politically ignorant they are used as pawns.

 

[the Great Khan]

The problem is in the UK we have some very smart people but most are clueless when it comes to politics and are nothing more than sheep eating whats fed to them.

Then we have the Tories who have a bigger Islamaphobia problem, heck their next leader is going to be Boris who said black people have watermelon smiles and women wearing the burka are like letterboxers but the media doesn't bring this up reguarly if at all now.

This is a big flaw in democracy where each man has a vote but when so many are uneducated or politically ignorant they are used as pawns.

smart people can be counted on your fingertips in this country..most people are just thick..give them beer, fast food, and football and thats all they'll talk about..appeal to their baser instincts and theyll vote for you..the country is a broken mess and on a steep path to ultimate decline..I am already encouraging my kids to think of leaving when they are able..and when i mean thick people I lump everyone..asians, whites everyone..walk down a street and see the thickness and jabroni-ness rise..their parents are imbeciles, who are raising imbeciles. I mean how stupid do you have to be that your walking to the train yet your looking at your bloody phone..Look up..or what about the brother who nearly rams into anotehr car because he's on the phone while driving. And dont get me started on the yobs..

then you have our lovely sisters innit..two planks have more brains at times..their children are feral..I mean really bloody stupid..

I've just about had enough..

 

[James]

Poor night for Corbyn, councils and councillors both shed on a night when the opposition historically has done well. He won’t get elected as PM.

 

[KingKhanWC]

smart people can be counted on your fingertips in this country..most people are just thick..give them beer, fast food, and football and thats all they'll talk about..appeal to their baser instincts and theyll vote for you..the country is a broken mess and on a steep path to ultimate decline..I am already encouraging my kids to think of leaving when they are able..and when i mean thick people I lump everyone..asians, whites everyone..walk down a street and see the thickness and jabroni-ness rise..their parents are imbeciles, who are raising imbeciles. I mean how stupid do you have to be that your walking to the train yet your looking at your bloody phone..Look up *****..or what about the brother who nearly rams into anotehr car because he's on the phone while driving. And dont get me started on the yobs..

then you have our lovely sisters innit..two planks have more brains at times..their children are feral..I mean really bloody stupid..

I've just about had enough..

They are being played like a fiddle, dumbed down. Pretty much every day I see the top read news stories being of celebs and their relationships. More people care about who is seeing who(people they have never met) than taxes, climate, crime etc.

 

[Technics 1210]

The problem is in the UK we have some very smart people but most are clueless when it comes to politics and are nothing more than sheep eating whats fed to them.

Then we have the Tories who have a bigger Islamaphobia problem, heck their next leader is going to be Boris who said black people have watermelon smiles and women wearing the burka are like letterboxers but the media doesn't bring this up reguarly if at all now.

This is a big flaw in democracy where each man has a vote but when so many are uneducated or politically ignorant they are used as pawns.

I agree with what you are saying but I don't believe the problem is just confined to the UK. USA is a good example where nearly 50% of the population voted for Trump! What does this say about the average American. Likewise in India, where the public voted for Modi.

Democracy is just an excuse to control the masses.

 

[Technics 1210]

Poor night for Corbyn, councils and councillors both shed on a night when the opposition historically has done well. He won’t get elected as PM.

Losing 6 Councils, and 82 Councillors is poor? It's a hell of a lot better than what people expected!

Corbyn won't get elected as PM? The audacity. Ha! What was said about Obama, Trump and Brexit? Outside chances - they would never win! Whoops. Forget that, prediction for 2017 GE was Labour would lose seats, instead Labour gained seats, wiped out the Tory majority, ushered in the DUP with £2B bung, and here we are - Theresa May going down in history as potentially the worst ever PM this country has seen for generations because she and the Tories underestimated Corbyn!

The only lesson in politics is that you cannot trust anyone or anything! Including polls, and 3rd bitrate elections.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I agree with what you are saying but I don't believe the problem is just confined to the UK. USA is a good example where nearly 50% of the population voted for Trump! What does this say about the average American. Likewise in India, where the public voted for Modi.

Democracy is just an excuse to control the masses.

Sure. I would say with the US and India, many who actually voted for Trump and Modi are extremists like their leaders. No Trump supporter or Modi supporter will ever criticise their beloved leaders even if they make the idiotic commemts both make.

 

[James]

Losing 6 Councils, and 82 Councillors is poor? It's a hell of a lot better than what people expected!

Corbyn won't get elected as PM? The audacity. Ha! What was said about Obama, Trump and Brexit? Outside chances - they would never win! Whoops. Forget that, prediction for 2017 GE was Labour would lose seats, instead Labour gained seats, wiped out the Tory majority, ushered in the DUP with £2B bung, and here we are - Theresa May going down in history as potentially the worst ever PM this country has seen for generations because she and the Tories underestimated Corbyn!

The only lesson in politics is that you cannot trust anyone or anything! Including polls, and 3rd bitrate elections.

It’s the worst local election performance for an opposition party in 10 years. Even Ed Miliband generally gained councils and councillors during his problematic tenure.

Given that the Tories have been ruling for almost a decade now and are universally hated, a strong Labour Party with its best possible leader would be performing to a better standard than this.

 

[Robert]

Zionists are trying though, their standard modus operandi is in full swing. Zionist controlled media has been trying to smear him in the public since the day he was elected leader as Labour party. They've tried everything possible, from accusing him of being a communist to a terrorist sympathizer, and of course, antisemitism.

A key note is the previous Labour leader, Ed Milliband, is a Jew, but the Labour party didn't have an anti-Semitic problem/image during his tenure! What a coincidence, NOT!

Because the antisemites joined when Miliband opened up the party membership with the £3 joining fee. All those whippets-on-strings Trotskyites who handed out hard left papers when I was an undergrad are running CLPs now.

I don’t believe Corbyn is AS, but the racists have accreted around him and he has not done much to remove them.

It’s a shame as Labour used to be the good guys.

 

[Robert]

Poor night for Corbyn, councils and councillors both shed on a night when the opposition historically has done well. He won’t get elected as PM.

He really should have picked up Councillors on a night when the Tories lost 1300 of them. The constructive ambiguity strategy has not survived contact with the ballot box.

His hope will be that Farage will tear lumps out of the Tories who will be able to get fewer candidates over the line and into Westminster.

But Labour have lost Scotland and I cannot see the SNP going into coalition with him, with no help from a resurgent Lib Dems either.

Another hung Parliament then. He might be in the biggest party and have a shot at being PM but will not be able to get anything through the Commons and will fail within a year.

 

[the Great Khan]

Because the antisemites joined when Miliband opened up the party membership with the £3 joining fee. All those whippets-on-strings Trotskyites who handed out hard left papers when I was an undergrad are running CLPs now.

I don’t believe Corbyn is AS, but the racists have accreted around him and he has not done much to remove them.

It’s a shame as Labour used to be the good guys.

please..the only reason this anti semitic smear game has started is because he supports the palestinian freedom movement..the torie party is institutionallyracists and hates Muslims..the LD hardly have any BMES on any major platform..for BME's Labour is the only game in town..but your white privilege will never let you see past that..

 

[Robert]

please..the only reason this anti semitic smear game has started is because he supports the palestinian freedom movement..the torie party is institutionallyracists and hates Muslims..the LD hardly have any BMES on any major platform..for BME's Labour is the only game in town..but your white privilege will never let you see past that..

Tell that to Luciana Berger, a BAME MP driven out of the Labour Party by racist entryists.

Just think about that. A BAME MP has been driven out of Labour by racism.

LDs now have a prominent half-Palestinian MP in Layla Moran who is a front-runner to be the next leader. After the 2015 meltdown they were reduced to just eight MPs in places with few BAME residents like Orkney. Equality processes are in place now and BAME candidates are becoming Councillors and moving into PCC roles. London Mayoral candidate Siobhan Benita is half-Indian.

I agree about the Tories and their supporters don’t care, but Labour supporters are supposed to be the good guys and should care about the racists in their own ranks.

 

[the Great Khan]

Tell that to Luciana Berger, a BAME MP driven out of the Labour Party by racist entryists.

Just think about that. A BAME MP has been driven out of Labour by racism.

LDs now have a prominent half-Palestinian MP in Layla Moran who is a front-runner to be the next leader. After the 2015 meltdown they were reduced to just eight MPs in places with few BAME residents like Orkney. Equality processes are in place now and BAME candidates are becoming Councillors and moving into PCC roles. London Mayoral candidate Siobhan Benita is half-Indian.

I agree about the Tories and their supporters don’t care, but Labour supporters are supposed to be the good guys and should care about the racists in their own ranks.

BAME?? lol, she has no idea what a BAME is..she is white and only becomes a BAME when its convenient for her. What disadvantages has she had to face? None..compare to what we face? Has she fought for BAME rights? no..its all nonsense. I'm not denying her getting threats , I'm sure she did and she was right to report them..but we face worse daily. Diane Abbot gets a hundred times worse but she has stuck it out. But because she's black, the white community enjoys seeing her take flak. Nothing has changed in this country since the 1960's. All we have is a veneer a myth created during the 90's to mask the reality. Now that brexit is happening the veneer is gone. We live in a racist country that actively discriminates against visible BAME people. luciana was also attacked for refusing to back her leadership. Just listen to teh Eddie Mair interview on LBC..I would have sacked her long ago from the party..

If nobody knew who she was and her and my wife walked passed a bunch of EDL , my wife would be in danger for her life and Luciana would simply walk on by..

The reason the anti semitic smears began is because of JC's support for the palestinians..just look what they are trying to do to Ilhan Omar..its the same tactics..to protect that little Mid east state..

In the new labour environ created by supporters of the little state, anybody who criticises it is a racist. including BME's like Jackie walker a jewish black woman ostracised, a BME, and Mark wardsworth a lifelong fighter against racism. What has Luciana done for the BAME community? F all..this whole episode is created so that racists can label lifelong anti racists as racist. Its a con.. Most of the complaints against her were from her own jewish constituency..says alot..

 

[Robert]

BAME?? lol, she has no idea what a BAME is..she is white and only becomes a BAME when its convenient for her. What disadvantages has she had to face? None..compare to what we face? Has she fought for BAME rights? no..its all nonsense. I'm not denying her getting threats , I'm sure she did and she was right to report them..but we face worse daily. Diane Abbot gets a hundred times worse but she has stuck it out. But because she's black, the white community enjoys seeing her take flak. Nothing has changed in this country since the 1960's. All we have is a veneer a myth created during the 90's to mask the reality. Now that brexit is happening the veneer is gone. We live in a racist country that actively discriminates against visible BAME people. luciana was also attacked for refusing to back her leadership. Just listen to teh Eddie Mair interview on LBC..I would have sacked her long ago from the party..

If nobody knew who she was and her and my wife walked passed a bunch of EDL , my wife would be in danger for her life and Luciana would simply walk on by..

The reason the anti semitic smears began is because of JC's support for the palestinians..just look what they are trying to do to Ilhan Omar..its the same tactics..to protect that little Mid east state..

In the new labour environ created by supporters of the little state, anybody who criticises it is a racist. including BME's like Jackie walker a jewish black woman ostracised, a BME, and Mark wardsworth a lifelong fighter against racism. What has Luciana done for the BAME community? F all..this whole episode is created so that racists can label lifelong anti racists as racist. Its a con.. Most of the complaints against her were from her own jewish constituency..says alot..

Of course Berger is BAME because she is Minority Ethnic.

The toxic racism in Labour seems to stem from the idea that because someone looks white they cannot be a victim of racism - and yet antisemitism is the oldest racism of all. There are plenty of incidents of Jew-bashing. You think the fascists discriminate between you and Jews? You are all Other to the fascists.

You have attempted to generalise and stigmatise the white community as racist because individual members of it are racist towards Abbott. These generalisations are unhelpful. I hold individual white racists in contempt, and all the white people I know do too.

Abbott didn’t cop the racism from within her own Party. Berger did, which is why she left.

Part of this whole episode is to smear Corbyn but Labour have added fuel to the blaze by not expelling the racists in their midst. Corbyn could have shut this down years ago but chose not to take effective and decisive action.

I get that you are angry but would have a hard think [MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION], for you are taking the side of some bad guys here.

 

[the Great Khan]

Of course Berger is BAME because she is Minority Ethnic.

The toxic racism in Labour seems to stem from the idea that because someone looks white they cannot be a victim of racism - and yet antisemitism is the oldest racism of all. There are plenty of incidents of Jew-bashing. You think the fascists discriminate between you and Jews? You are all Other to the fascists.

You have attempted to generalise and stigmatise the white community as racist because individual members of it are racist towards Abbott. These generalisations are unhelpful. I hold individual white racists in contempt, and all the white people I know do too.

Abbott didn’t cop the racism from within her own Party. Berger did, which is why she left.

Part of this whole episode is to smear Corbyn but Labour have added fuel to the blaze by not expelling the racists in their midst. Corbyn could have shut this down years ago but chose not to take effective and decisive action.

I get that you are angry but would have a hard think [MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION], for you are taking the side of some bad guys here.

My point is she became a BAME when she was abused. prior to that she was white. She had the privilege of being able to "blend" in and take advantage of the white privilege of the white community. But suddenly it all comes to the fore because she got abuse. It actually started because of the coup against Corbyn and her reluctance to support him once he had beaten the coup plotters. It also amplified once the isreal palestine issue came to the fore. I dont condone abuse. As a visible BAME I know more about it than Luciana could ever dream. people like me and Diane Abbott don't have the luxury of jumping ship. We are labour because there is knowhere else to go.

When your own party starts throwing out lifelong BAME activists because of their support for palestine, or refuses to diversify it hurts. Luciana's issue is merely a small issue amongst bigger issues within the party, the left and society in general.

The anti semitism issue has been blown up at the expense of real issues of racism, islamaphobia and institutional discrimination.

I mean read this article: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-reflects-pervasive-prejudice-brexit-britain

this is again the tip of the iceberg. My issue is very simple. We must be able to criticise Isreal without being accused of being racists. End of. And if that means critiquing Zionism then that must be allowed too. At the same time nobody should face death threats if they have a contrary opinion. or feel they have to leave the party.

And finally Brexit has exposed the racism within the UK that we have always known was there but was never talked about. Now the racists are going mainstream.

 

[Technics 1210]

My point is she became a BAME when she was abused. prior to that she was white. She had the privilege of being able to "blend" in and take advantage of the white privilege of the white community. But suddenly it all comes to the fore because she got abuse. It actually started because of the coup against Corbyn and her reluctance to support him once he had beaten the coup plotters. It also amplified once the isreal palestine issue came to the fore. I dont condone abuse. As a visible BAME I know more about it than Luciana could ever dream. people like me and Diane Abbott don't have the luxury of jumping ship. We are labour because there is knowhere else to go.

When your own party starts throwing out lifelong BAME activists because of their support for palestine, or refuses to diversify it hurts. Luciana's issue is merely a small issue amongst bigger issues within the party, the left and society in general.

The anti semitism issue has been blown up at the expense of real issues of racism, islamaphobia and institutional discrimination.

I mean read this article: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-reflects-pervasive-prejudice-brexit-britain

this is again the tip of the iceberg. My issue is very simple. We must be able to criticise Isreal without being accused of being racists. End of. And if that means critiquing Zionism then that must be allowed too. At the same time nobody should face death threats if they have a contrary opinion. or feel they have to leave the party.

And finally Brexit has exposed the racism within the UK that we have always known was there but was never talked about. Now the racists are going mainstream.

100% True. Support for Palestine/Criticism of Israel is not antisemitism.

As for Racism, it has always existed in the UK, and Brexit is either an excuse for racism, or people accused of racism.

 

[Markhor]

[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

Look in a large, mass member organisation like the Labour Party with hundreds of thousands of members there will be some crazies who mouth off on social media. There are legitimate cases of antisemitism I've read where some members have made appalling comments and they need to be disciplined. One never should in opposition to the State of Israel engage in anti-Jewish agendas - it only plays into the hands of pro-Occupation forces.

The Labour Party is a bureaucracy like any other and it has admittedly taken longer than one wants to resolve all these investigations.

However come on, it's undeniable anti-Corbyn critics who were never prepared to accept his leadership have politicised this anti-semitism controversy to undermine him. They've joined with pro-Likud forces in the West to also shut down any debate of Israel's actions by labelling critics antisemites. All these celebrities jumping on the bandwagon have not uttered a word about the institutional Islamaphobia even a Tory like Sayeeda Warsi has admitted to.

Compare the coverage of Labour antisemitism and Tory Islamophobia and you see a massive disproportionality. Why ? The newspaper proprietors, who pay little in the way of taxes, despise Corbyn and any progressive Labour leader who will upturn the economic applecart.

Look at how Ed Miliband was smeared relentlessly by the press on trivial grounds even though he was much more moderate than Corbyn.

 

[s28]

Luciana Berger was always a Tory so less of the 'driven out of her own party' nonsense.

 

[James]

Are European Jews considered to be BAME? I think that’s slightly debatable. (Obviously in a UK context, Black or Middle Eastern Jews would definitely be so.)

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

Look in a large, mass member organisation like the Labour Party with hundreds of thousands of members there will be some crazies who mouth off on social media. There are legitimate cases of antisemitism I've read where some members have made appalling comments and they need to be disciplined. One never should in opposition to the State of Israel engage in anti-Jewish agendas - it only plays into the hands of pro-Occupation forces.

The Labour Party is a bureaucracy like any other and it has admittedly taken longer than one wants to resolve all these investigations.

However come on, it's undeniable anti-Corbyn critics who were never prepared to accept his leadership have politicised this anti-semitism controversy to undermine him. They've joined with pro-Likud forces in the West to also shut down any debate of Israel's actions by labelling critics antisemites. All these celebrities jumping on the bandwagon have not uttered a word about the institutional Islamaphobia even a Tory like Sayeeda Warsi has admitted to.

Compare the coverage of Labour antisemitism and Tory Islamophobia and you see a massive disproportionality. Why ? The newspaper proprietors, who pay little in the way of taxes, despise Corbyn and any progressive Labour leader who will upturn the economic applecart.

Look at how Ed Miliband was smeared relentlessly by the press on trivial grounds even though he was much more moderate than Corbyn.

Of course. Every Labour Leader cops this. I remember the manure they shovelled on Kinnock. Corbyn isn’t a special case. Blair was the only one who escaped because did some sort of deal with Murdoch. Brown derided Rebekah Brooks’ influence in his autobiography. She tried to continue this in the Coalition years but Ken Clarke ignored her.

 

[Robert]

100% True. Support for Palestine/Criticism of Israel is not antisemitism.

As for Racism, it has always existed in the UK, and Brexit is either an excuse for racism, or people accused of racism.

But Brexit has brought it all back to the surface. Every BAME person, every continental European worker here tells me the same.

Criticising action of the Israel government is not anti Semitic as long as you say “the Israel government” not generalisations like “the Jews” or “the Zionists”.

 

[Robert]

Are European Jews considered to be BAME? I think that’s slightly debatable. (Obviously in a UK context, Black or Middle Eastern Jews would definitely be so.)

They are certainly an ethnic minority, as are Gypsies, and I would argue Cornish.

 

[Technics 1210]

But Brexit has brought it all back to the surface. Every BAME person, every continental European worker here tells me the same.

Criticising action of the Israel government is not anti Semitic as long as you say “the Israel government” not generalisations like “the Jews” or “the Zionists”.

Zionism is a political party, with a political agenda. I disagree that criticizing *Zionism/Zionists* is antisemitic.

 

[James]

Zionism is a political party, with a political agenda. I disagree that criticizing *Zionism/Zionists* is antisemitic.

I think it depends how specific the criticism of Zionists or Zionism is, and the context.

Some people use Zionists to mean political Zionists, which is fine; others say Zionists when they really mean Jews, which is not fine.

Generalising “The Jews” meanwhile is quite different and very likely to be an antisemitic statement.

 

[James]

They are certainly an ethnic minority, as are Gypsies, and I would argue Cornish.

Gypsies are for sure.

Not sure about European Jews or Cornish though.
[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] makes a good point about the difference between “invisible” and “visible” BAME. Perhaps there should be 3 groupings:

1. Visible BAME.
2. Non-visible BAME.
3. Non-BAME.

 

[the Great Khan]

But Brexit has brought it all back to the surface. Every BAME person, every continental European worker here tells me the same.

Criticising action of the Israel government is not anti Semitic as long as you say “the Israel government” not generalisations like “the Jews” or “the Zionists”.

"Zionism has destroyed the cities of Palestine." this is a direct quote from a Palestinian in a recent aljazeera documentary about how the occupation and establishment of Israel destroyed the culture of pre 47 Palestine. Is it anti semitic to say this?

 

[Robert]

"Zionism has destroyed the cities of Palestine." this is a direct quote from a Palestinian in a recent aljazeera documentary about how the occupation and establishment of Israel destroyed the culture of pre 47 Palestine. Is it anti semitic to say this?

I don’t think so.

But you are setting up a strawman of a statement by a Palestinian, instead of discussing antisemitism in the Labour Party.

 

[Robert]

Gypsies are for sure.

Not sure about European Jews or Cornish though.

[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] makes a good point about the difference between “invisible” and “visible” BAME. Perhaps there should be 3 groupings:

1. Visible BAME.
2. Non-visible BAME.
3. Non-BAME.

Why Gypsies and not Jews? By what criterion?

Ms Berger looks visibly Minority Ethnic to me.

The Cornish have National Minority status.

 

[Technics 1210]

I don’t think so.

But you are setting up a strawman of a statement by a Palestinian, instead of discussing antisemitism in the Labour Party.

I think the point is you said we shouldn't use the term *Zionists* because it is antisemitic. Why?

The Antisemitism you speak of in the Labour Party stems very much from Palestinian support within the Labour party.

Other examples, such as Ken Livingstone citing a documented fact (The Havaara) agreement made him an Antisemitic in the eyes of the all-party parliamentary group for British Jews, and was ultimately sacked from the Labour party.

Stating a fact, supporting Palestine, and criticizing a political movement (Zionism) do not amount to antisemitism.

 

[Technics 1210]

I think it depends how specific the criticism of Zionists or Zionism is, and the context.

Some people use Zionists to mean political Zionists, which is fine; others say Zionists when they really mean Jews, which is not fine.

Generalising “The Jews” meanwhile is quite different and very likely to be an antisemitic statement.

The ting is that Zionism is a political movement based on religious motives. Yes it blurs the line, but the reality is that supporters of Zionism will be Jews. Saying this there are orthodox Jews who do not support Zionism.

So in essence there is a difference between a Zionist and a Jew.

 

[Robert]

I think the point is you said we shouldn't use the term *Zionists* because it is antisemitic. Why?

The Antisemitism you speak of in the Labour Party stems very much from Palestinian support within the Labour party.

Other examples, such as Ken Livingstone citing a documented fact (The Havaara) agreement made him an Antisemitic in the eyes of the all-party parliamentary group for British Jews, and was ultimately sacked from the Labour party.

Stating a fact, supporting Palestine, and criticizing a political movement (Zionism) do not amount to antisemitism.

What [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] said. “Zionist” is a generalisation, charged with emotion and so easily misunderstood that I would not use it at all. I would say “the Israeli government” or “supporters of the Israeli government” which are more specific terms which take the emotional heat out.

Livingstone has a history of invoking Godwin’s Law frequently, inappropriately and without context. Conflating Hitler and Zionism was the most recent example, plain wrong and tactless in the extreme. The event you refer to allowed certain well-off German Jews to flee growing racist persecution for a new life, in exchange for seizure of most of their assets by the nascent Nazi state. It was state coercion and it was a human rights abuse.

 

[James]

The ting is that Zionism is a political movement based on religious motives. Yes it blurs the line, but the reality is that supporters of Zionism will be Jews. Saying this there are orthodox Jews who do not support Zionism.

So in essence there is a difference between a Zionist and a Jew.

Yes, there are also some Christians (especially Evangelical Americans in the Bible Belt) and even some Atheists who are Zionists. Along with of course many Jews. The Z word is a slightly explosive term.

 

[the Great Khan]

I don’t think so.

But you are setting up a strawman of a statement by a Palestinian, instead of discussing antisemitism in the Labour Party.

no, Im not. Im trying to make a point. If a member of the Labour party were to say the same thing wuld it be anti semitic?

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes, there are also some Christians (especially Evangelical Americans in the Bible Belt) and even some Atheists who are Zionists. Along with of course many Jews. The Z word is a slightly explosive term.

Well in which case, saying Zionist/m cannot be antisemitic given it is supported by people outside of Jewish belief.

 

[Technics 1210]

What [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] said. “Zionist” is a generalisation, charged with emotion and so easily misunderstood that I would not use it at all. I would say “the Israeli government” or “supporters of the Israeli government” which are more specific terms which take the emotional heat out.

Israeli government did not exist prior to 1947. What term do we use to point out the actions of Zionists in pre Israel era?

The motives/agenda of the Israeli government are different to the motives/agenda Zionism so the 2 terms have different meaning.

Should we stop using the term ISIS, and say Terrorists instead of Islamic Terrorists? Islamic terrorism is also charged with emotion.

 

[s28]

Follow @torahjews on twitter
Lots of very good explainers from Jewish religious groups who are anti-Zionist and explaining why Zionism is a poisonous ideology which they reject

 

[Robert]

no, Im not. Im trying to make a point. If a member of the Labour party were to say the same thing wuld it be anti semitic?

Perhaps not, it depends on context but this is also a strawman. We are talking about abuse directed at a Labour MP by Labour Party members.