Labour leadership: Result will be announced on 4 April [Post #1698]

[the Great Khan]

Perhaps not, it depends on context but this is also a strawman. We are talking about abuse directed at a Labour MP by Labour Party members.

depends on context? how so..and as for abuse , Dame hodge and the rest of the Likud supporters failed to produce adequate stats proving that the majority of abuse was from members of the labour party. Its a pity these same protectors of BME's dont give two hoots when BME's get attacked on the street or murdered by white supremacists..

 

[s28]

some quotes from Alexei Sayle (straight talking Jewish comedian)

the search for antisemitism in the Labour Party is the biggest groupthink con since the search for WMD in Iraq

and the lies being perpetrated by the same Blairites

nothing more ridiculous than racists accusing anti-racists of being racist

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Corbyn finally backs a second referendum.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tuesday's Guardian: Brexit deal must be put to public vote, says Corbyn <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/tomorrowspaperstoday?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#tomorrowspaperstoday</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/bbcpapers?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#bbcpapers</a> (via <a href="https://twitter.com/hendopolis?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Hendopolis</a>) <a href="https://t.co/XPVYkNWSnZ">pic.twitter.com/XPVYkNWSnZ</a></p>— BBC News (UK) (@BBCNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1133125496722665472?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[shaz619]

Corbyn finally backs a second referendum.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tuesday's Guardian: Brexit deal must be put to public vote, says Corbyn <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/tomorrowspaperstoday?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#tomorrowspaperstoday</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/bbcpapers?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#bbcpapers</a> (via <a href="https://twitter.com/hendopolis?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Hendopolis</a>) <a href="https://t.co/XPVYkNWSnZ">pic.twitter.com/XPVYkNWSnZ</a></p>— BBC News (UK) (@BBCNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1133125496722665472?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He shouldn't have blurred the lines from the start, I begrudgingly voted for Labour in the recent elections but am not happy with Jeremy in recent times.

 

[James]

some quotes from Alexei Sayle (straight talking Jewish comedian)

the search for antisemitism in the Labour Party is the biggest groupthink con since the search for WMD in Iraq

and the lies being perpetrated by the same Blairites

nothing more ridiculous than racists accusing anti-racists of being racist

The formal EHRC investigation was launched today, wonder what will come of it.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Haha Alistair Campbell kicked out of the Labour Party.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Alastair Campbell 'expelled' from Labour Party after voting for Lib Dems in EU elections <a href="https://t.co/36fCqKHa0m">https://t.co/36fCqKHa0m</a><br><br>Watch the clip <a href="https://t.co/gVFbnlUs83">https://t.co/gVFbnlUs83</a></p>— BBC Politics (@BBCPolitics) <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1133339336005554176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Robert]

Haha Alistair Campbell kicked out of the Labour Party.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Alastair Campbell 'expelled' from Labour Party after voting for Lib Dems in EU elections <a href="https://t.co/36fCqKHa0m">https://t.co/36fCqKHa0m</a><br><br>Watch the clip <a href="https://t.co/gVFbnlUs83">https://t.co/gVFbnlUs83</a></p>— BBC Politics (@BBCPolitics) <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1133339336005554176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Stalinists have wanted him gone for some time and he gave them an excuse. I bet thousands of Labour members voted Lib or more likely Green.

 

[James]

It’s true that they have followed the little red rulebook in expelling him.

What’s more embarrassing and concerning is that some Labour-supporting Twitter users who regularly share antisemitic conspiracy theories and make racist comments merely remain suspended by the party pending further enquiries, and have been for some months - whereas the Party has managed to bin off its legacy Malcolm Tucker with extreme efficiency.

 

[Technics 1210]

It’s true that they have followed the little red rulebook in expelling him.

What’s more embarrassing and concerning is that some Labour-supporting Twitter users who regularly share antisemitic conspiracy theories and make racist comments merely remain suspended by the party pending further enquiries, and have been for some months - whereas the Party has managed to bin off its legacy Malcolm Tucker with extreme efficiency.

More to do with the fact antisemitism is a grey area.

 

[Robert]

It’s true that they have followed the little red rulebook in expelling him.

Ah, I checked with a Labour Councillor and this isn’t the case. A member would have to campaign for another party to be thrown out - such as sign candidacy papers or go doorstepping. But he said he had voted LD after the polls closed. So he should be reinstated.

Sure, there are Holocaust deniers who remain suspended but not expelled and that’s a disgrace. One MP said she received a death threat from a Party member who is not expelled yet.

Hashtag Labourmutiny is appearing on Twitter as members state they voted Lib, Green and TIG....

 

[Technics 1210]

Ah, I checked with a Labour Councillor and this isn’t the case. A member would have to campaign for another party to be thrown out - such as sign candidacy papers or go doorstepping. But he said he had voted LD after the polls closed. So he should be reinstated.

Sure, there are Holocaust deniers who remain suspended but not expelled and that’s a disgrace. One MP said she received a death threat from a Party member who is not expelled yet.

Hashtag Labourmutiny is appearing on Twitter as members state they voted Lib, Green and TIG....

Holocaust denial is not a crime in the UK - thankfully.

 

[Robert]

Holocaust denial is not a crime in the UK - thankfully.

Neither is voting Lib Dem but you can get expelled by Labour for it.

 

[Technics 1210]

Neither is voting Lib Dem but you can get expelled by Labour for it.

Actually there are specific rules for voting for another party while being a member of a party. Rules violated can lead to being expelled.

 

[Robert]

Actually there are specific rules for voting for another party while being a member of a party. Rules violated can lead to being expelled.

Only for helping another party campaign, not for declaring a vote for another party after the polls have closed.

 

[s28]

As mentioned on other thread it has come to light Campbell has been using antisemitic tropes for a significant period of time.

The hypocrites who were trying to slander Corbyn/Labour with this smear are now remarkably quiet.

It takes a pretty low grade person to use antisemitism in this weaponised way

 

[Robert]

As mentioned on other thread it has come to light Campbell has been using antisemitic tropes for a significant period of time.

Examples?

 

[s28]

Why do you need examples ? Where is your unequivocal condemnation ?

 

[Robert]

Why do you need examples ? Where is your unequivocal condemnation ?

I cannot unequivocally condemn someone based on hearsay. I need evidence before I can do that.

 

[s28]

Odd that is pretty much what the supposed Labour Antisemitism crisis is all based on

 

[Gabbar Singh]

More Labour infighting.



<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Statement on Chris Williamson <a href="https://t.co/WGYx9os2A0">pic.twitter.com/WGYx9os2A0</a></p>— Tom Watson (@tom_watson) <a href="https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1144234392920973313?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Labour Party deputy leader Tom Watson was among dozens of senior figures who spoke of their "hurt and anger" at the move, which followed a row over anti-semitism <a href="https://t.co/v4y2FkN6pZ">https://t.co/v4y2FkN6pZ</a></p>— Sky News (@SkyNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1144245811674570752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Labour MP Chris Williamson suspended again over anti-Semitism row <a href="https://t.co/2ItwILxLHe">https://t.co/2ItwILxLHe</a></p>— BBC Politics (@BBCPolitics) <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1144650764045955073?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 28, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MenInG]

Jeremy Corbyn has said he will not lead Labour into the next election, following a "very disappointing night" for his party.

He said he would stay on as leader during a "process of reflection" on the result, which a BBC forecast says will be its worst since 1935.

He added that the issue of Brexit had "polarised" politics and "overridden so much of normal political debate".

Spoiler

But others within Labour blamed his leadership.

Labour have lost a string of former strongholds in the north of England and Wales in areas that voted Leave in the 2016 EU referendum.

A BBC forecast has put Labour on 203 seats - a predicted loss of 59 from the last general election in 2017.

The Conservatives have already won an overall majority, with a handful of seats left to declare.

Speaking after retaining his North Islington seat, Mr Corbyn said the party's manifesto policies had enjoyed "huge popular support", and criticised the "way the media behaved" towards his party during the campaign.

But he added: "Brexit has so polarised and divided debate in this country, it has overridden so much of a normal political debate."

"I recognise that has contributed to the results that the Labour Party has received this evening all across this country."

Labour went into the campaign promising to renegotiate Prime Minister Boris Johnson's Brexit deal, and then put it to a referendum vote alongside the option of remaining in the EU.

That strategy was criticised by party chairman Ian Lavery, who said it had led voters in traditional Labour seats to believe it was "a Remain party".

"They believe they should have been listened to - and they think that the Labour party have totally reneged on the result," he added.

But he added the strategy was not "Jeremy Corbyn's decision," as it had been approved by delegates at the party's September conference.

Given the result, you might assume Jeremy Corbyn would swiftly fall on his sword - but he has instead called for a period of quiet reflection.

Party rules make it difficult to oust him, but already senior figures are asking how long this period will last.

Senior figures at Westminster and in local government feel delaying an inevitable leadership contest will lead to a similar result in May's council elections.

Mr Corbyn seems intent on staying in place until someone from his wing of the party is ready to take over - but the defeat of shadow minister Laura Pidcock has eliminated one of the potential left-wing leadership challengers.

Those who'd prefer shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer are keen that a new leader is in place soon to challenge Prime Minister Boris Johnson's Brexit policy.

The battle to establish the reasons for the defeat has already begun.

The narrative from the leadership that Brexit was to blame will be challenged robustly by those who want the party to change direction.

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell, a key ally of Mr Corbyn, said he was "heartbroken" at the election result.

He said he would not take on the party leadership temporarily. "At some stage we'll go into a leadership election," he said.

"Jeremy wants to ensure there is a period of reflection."

Earlier, he said he did not think the Labour leader had been "the big issue" of the campaign.

But former Labour justice secretary Lord Falconer called for the party to move quickly to replace Mr Corbyn as leader by March or April.

Gareth Snell, who lost his Leave-backing Stoke-on-Trent Central seat, called for both Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell to quit.

He accused senior figures in the shadow cabinet who are defending Remain-voting seats in London of "sacrificing" candidates in marginal constituencies in the Midlands and the north of England.

Elsewhere in the city, Ruth Smeeth, who lost her Stoke-on-Trent North seat to the Conservatives, described the election result as "devastating".

"For me this is about whether the Labour party has any right to exist [and] whether we have anything left to say," she said.

Another Labour MP to lose her seat, Caroline Flint in Don Valley, said: "So many of my voters could not and did not want to support Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister."

She added: "I'm afraid to say there are moderate MPs who have driven us into a dead-end regarding Brexit and they have put the pursuit of Remain at the expense of our working-class heartlands and I feel annoyed to say the least about that."

Shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer, speaking after retaining his Holborn and St Pancras seat, said: "As a whole movement, we need to reflect on this result and understand it together, but we also have a duty to rebuild, starting now."

Yvette Cooper, who unsuccessfully challenged Mr Corbyn for her party's leadership in 2015, said the results showed Labour "have to change as a party".

She said Brexit had played a "significant part" in her party's performance, but the election "was not just about Brexit".

"It was about their perceptions of the party, their perceptions of the leadership," she added.

Speaking after an earlier exit poll predicted heavy losses for Labour, former Labour home secretary Alan Johnson told ITV News that Mr Corbyn had been "incapable of leading" and "worse than useless at all the qualities you need to lead a political party."

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50766114

 

[MenInG]

Jeremy Corbyn says he did "everything he could" to get Labour into power and will not "walk away" until another leader is elected.

The Labour leader said the election, which saw the Conservatives sweep aside his party in its traditional heartlands, was "taken over by Brexit".

Mr Corbyn said he was "obviously very sad" but also had "pride" in the manifesto his party put forward.

Some people within Labour have blamed Mr Corbyn's leadership for the defeat.

Spoiler

Former Labour MP John Mann said the leader's unpopularity on the doorstep was palpable and Mr Corbyn should have "gone already".

Lord Blunkett, a former Labour cabinet minister, called for the party leadership to apologise for the election defeat, adding that they were "lacking in any contrite belief that they made a mistake".

At 33%, Labour's share of the vote is down around eight points on the 2017 general election and is lower than that achieved by Neil Kinnock in 1992.

LIVE: Updates and reaction as results come in
Tories take Labour seats as they head for majority
Mr Corbyn said it was up to the National Executive, the ruling body of the party, to decide when he would go, adding it was likely a new leader would be selected in the early part of next year.

He said he would not step down as leader yet because the "responsible thing to do is not to walk away from the whole thing".

Asked whether he was part of the problem, he said: "I've done everything I could to lead this party… and since I became leader the membership has more than doubled and the party has developed a very serious, radical yes, but serious and fully-costed manifesto".

Image caption
Keir Starmer, one of the favourites to be the new leader, says it's "a big task" to rebuild Labour
Keir Starmer, one of the favourites to replace Mr Corbyn as leader, said there was "no hiding" from the election result which was "devastating for our party".

He said it was the party's duty to "rebuild" which was going to be "a very big task".

Asked if he wanted to be the next leader, he said: "I think this is the time for reflecting and understanding the result. I don't underestimate the size of the task ahead."

Unite union boss Len McCluskey, an influential Labour ally, said the result was "deeply, deeply disappointing" and the party had "failed" because it had tried "to go beyond Brexit".

"Unfortunately our Labour heartland who had voted Leave, they undoubtedly felt that Labour had let them down," he said.

"My worst fears have come true, it was always Labour's Achilles' heel."

The Conservatives took Labour strongholds across northern England, the Midlands and Wales in areas which backed Brexit in the 2016 referendum.

Some traditional Labour constituencies, such as Darlington, Sedgefield and Workington, in the north of England, have a Conservative MP for the first time in decades - or in the case of Bishop Auckland and Blyth Valley - for the first time since the seat was created.

Mr Corbyn was re-elected with a reduced majority of 26,188 as the MP for Islington North.

Reflecting on his party's defeat, My Corbyn said: "My whole strategy was to reach out beyond the Brexit divide to try and bring people together because ultimately the country has to come together."

The party promised to renegotiate Prime Minister Boris Johnson's Brexit deal, and put it to a referendum vote alongside the option of remaining in the EU.

Asked what went wrong for the party, he said: "Those in Leave areas, in some numbers, voted for Brexit or Conservative candidates which meant that we lost a number of seats and we didn't make the gains that I'd hoped we could have done".

Asked whether "Corbynism" is now dead, he said: "There is no such thing as Corbyninsm… there is socialism."

He added: "I don't think [socialist ideas] are unelectable."

Mr Corbyn said his party's policies were individually "very popular" and there was no "huge debate" about them within the party.

Dame Margaret Hodge, MP for Barking, said under Mr Corbyn's leadership, Labour had become the "nasty party", with anti-Semitism allowed to flourish.

Speaking about his party's handling of anti-Semitism, the Labour leader said: "I inherited a system that didn't work in the Labour party on anti-Semitism, I introduced the rule changes necessary to deal with it and they're in operation.

"Anti-Semitism is an absolute evil curse within our society and I will always condemn it and also do and always will".

Meanwhile, the rapper Stormzy, who backed Labour ahead of the election and described Mr Corbyn as "a man of hope", has told BBC Radio 1Xtra that the result feels like "a dark cloud".

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50784811

 

[GBK_Fan]

If he stays longer and gets one of his cronies elected as the leader, it’s probably the death knell for the Labour party

 

[cricketjoshila]

If he stays longer and gets one of his cronies elected as the leader, it’s probably the death knell for the Labour party

If you lose to Boris Johnson, you shouldn't even open your mouth.

 

[James]

Can’t believe he is still in the job as I type.

Labour’s worst defeat since 1935 and he still insists on dragging out his leadership.

A hugely overrated old man with no sense of shame.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Can’t believe he is still in the job as I type.

Labour’s worst defeat since 1935 and he still insists on dragging out his leadership.

A hugely overrated old man with no sense of shame.

Have you heard of Rahul Gandhi?

 

[GBK_Fan]

Have you heard of Rahul Gandhi?

In all fairness RG quit and let his mom take over

 

[cricketjoshila]

In all fairness RG quit and let his mom take over

Corbyn lost to a Rahul Gandhi.

 

[Robert]

Can’t believe he is still in the job as I type.

Labour’s worst defeat since 1935 and he still insists on dragging out his leadership.

A hugely overrated old man with no sense of shame.

Wasteman, as my kids say.

When he refused to stand down despite 80% of the PLP rebelling, I knew it would take a massive GE defeat to get rid of him. Not even that straight away. Rigid belief system plus delusion of competence.

So he stays long enough to engineer in another hard left leader. If they go for Long-Bailey instead of a moderate like Starmer or maybe even Jess Phillips, Labour will lose in 2024 too.

 

[Abdullah476]

Wasteman, as my kids say.

When he refused to stand down despite 80% of the PLP rebelling, I knew it would take a massive GE defeat to get rid of him. Not even that straight away. Rigid belief system plus delusion of competence.

So he stays long enough to engineer in another hard left leader. If they go for Long-Bailey instead of a moderate like Starmer or maybe even Jess Phillips, Labour will lose in 2024 too.

Will Boris be leading the tories in 2024?
Who's going to be the Tories leader after Boris?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Can’t believe he is still in the job as I type.

Labour’s worst defeat since 1935 and he still insists on dragging out his leadership.

A hugely overrated old man with no sense of shame.

It's not his fault. Sense of shame, overated? Have you even read of his life? This man has stood up for the weak or discriminated for decades. I haven't done anything near to make a positive difference to persons life. You?

Wasteman, as my kids say.

When he refused to stand down despite 80% of the PLP rebelling, I knew it would take a massive GE defeat to get rid of him. Not even that straight away. Rigid belief system plus delusion of competence.

So he stays long enough to engineer in another hard left leader. If they go for Long-Bailey instead of a moderate like Starmer or maybe even Jess Phillips, Labour will lose in 2024 too.

You are a Tony Blair fan, a man who should be on trial for war crimes. He's not a wasteman?

 

[James]

It's not his fault. Sense of shame, overated? Have you even read of his life? This man has stood up for the weak or discriminated for decades. I haven't done anything near to make a positive difference to persons life. You?



You are a Tony Blair fan, a man who should be on trial for war crimes. He's not a wasteman?

This is just the usual broken record stuff that is being trotted out ad nauseam by the Corbynites after another loss, this time a truly humiliating and massive one. No one outside of Corbyn’s shrinking fanbase is buying it.

Labour’s worst loss for over 80 years, Labour heartlands falling like skittles to a bog average Tory policy platform - and yet it’s not Jeremy’s fault at all, world’s greatest campaigner, Blairite Blairism etc. Surprised you didn’t add in the other favourites while you were at it - Brexit, media smear campaign, Zionist conspiracy, London Remainer MPs (who he was too weak a leader to control, actually).... keep going and you will have the full set of excuses.

Losing is not winning. He has failed. Totally shameless and barefaced of him to be sticking around.

 

[Captain caveman]

Corbyn could never of become prime minister, even if he had the greatest policies in the world because he had a beard!

No before you guys mock me, hear me out, have you seen any recent prime ministers with a beard?
John major?
Tony blair?
Gordon brown?
David cameron?
Theresa may?
And not boris johnson either!

Still dont believe me?
Well in this day and age, its all about image rather than substance, thats how blair stopped the tories from winning.

If labour wants to win the next general election, they need to find a posh upper class beardless leader, who is good at debating and talking to the general public and dresses and looks good, the party policies are in material!

It worked for JFK, Blair and Obama, all ended long runs of right wing presidents and prime ministers!

 

[Captain caveman]

Corbyn could never of become prime minister, even if he had the greatest policies in the world because he had a beard!

No before you guys mock me, hear me out, have you seen any recent prime ministers with a beard?
John major?
Tony blair?
Gordon brown?
David cameron?
Theresa may?
And not boris johnson either!

Still dont believe me?
Well in this day and age, its all about image rather than substance, thats how blair stopped the tories from winning.

If labour wants to win the next general election, they need to find a posh upper class beardless leader, who is good at debating and talking to the general public and dresses and looks good, the party policies are in material!

It worked for JFK, Blair and Obama, all ended long runs of right wing presidents and prime ministers!

Heck even posh but dopey nick clegg became deputy prime minister, a fete no other lib dem leader has ever managed to do, certainly not jo swinson, even without a beard!

 

[Captain caveman]

I have lost alot of repect for corbyn, not because he lost(for a second time) but because he didnt resign immediately.
This is sharamful!

 

[Robert]

It's not his fault. Sense of shame, overated? Have you even read of his life? This man has stood up for the weak or discriminated for decades. I haven't done anything near to make a positive difference to persons life. You?

You are a Tony Blair fan, a man who should be on trial for war crimes. He's not a wasteman?

It is is fault. He deluded himself into thinking he was PM material, surrounded himself with hard-left worshippers and drove out the competent soft-left people who could have won the election.

His record is irrelevant because he did not have the self-awareness to stand aside and let someone competent win the election, and help the millions who will be hurt by this hard right Brexit zealot government.

He should have stayed on the back benches. That was the right level for him. I am deep-down furious and I weep for the last four wasted years.

Now hopefully his personality cult will wither, and Labour can get back to being an electable force again.

 

[Captain caveman]

It is is fault. He deluded himself into thinking he was PM material, surrounded himself with hard-left worshippers and drove out the competent soft-left people who could have won the election.

His record is irrelevant because he did not have the self-awareness to stand aside and let someone competent win the election, and help the millions who will be hurt by this hard right Brexit zealot government.

He should have stayed on the back benches. That was the right level for him. I am deep-down furious and I weep for the last four wasted years.

Now hopefully his personality cult will wither, and Labour can get back to being an electable force again.

You are wrong!
Corbyn did not win but he has amassed the younger generation and started the revolution of socialism against capitalism. Just like neil kinnock revolutionised the labour party to new labour and his sword bearer blair, corbyn will be the godfather of the new socialist labour party and a future labour leader will reap the rewards of corbyns work.
You mark my words a socialist revolution is coming!

 

[Robert]

You are wrong!
Corbyn did not win but he has amassed the younger generation and started the revolution of socialism against capitalism. Just like neil kinnock revolutionised the labour party to new labour and his sword bearer blair, corbyn will be the godfather of the new socialist labour party and a future labour leader will reap the rewards of corbyns work.
You mark my words a socialist revolution is coming!

Britain is basically a conservative country. Labour have won three out of the last twelve GEs and that was by Blair and Brown moving Labour to the centre, not left.

 

[James]

You are wrong!
Corbyn did not win but he has amassed the younger generation and started the revolution of socialism against capitalism. Just like neil kinnock revolutionised the labour party to new labour and his sword bearer blair, corbyn will be the godfather of the new socialist labour party and a future labour leader will reap the rewards of corbyns work.
You mark my words a socialist revolution is coming!

In the last nearly 50 years, the only Labour leader who was ever able to get elected and create a legacy was Blair, and he did that by having a mixture of centre-left and centre-right policies.

Aside from Blair, Labour leaders have always made a lot of noise and created a lovely niche echo chamber for themselves - but when the ballot has gone out to the country as a whole, in the end the Tories have always won.

Britain is not a socialist country. It is a moderate-conservative country.

 

[irfan]

In the last nearly 50 years, the only Labour leader who was ever able to get elected and create a legacy was Blair, and he did that by having a mixture of centre-left and centre-right policies.

Aside from Blair, Labour leaders have always made a lot of noise and created a lovely niche echo chamber for themselves - but when the ballot has gone out to the country as a whole, in the end the Tories have always won.

Britain is not a socialist country. It is a moderate-conservative country.

unfortunately so true that's what the globalist metropolitan Labour elite in London don't seem to get, the Northern working class traditional Labour type are socially conservative but want left wing econmic policies, they believe the media stuff about Corbyn not being patriotic etc, was reading some comments about such people who switched to Tory and they were bemoaning why didn't he know when the Queen's Speech was on etc and that Labour ignored their views on Brexit.

This is nothing new, if you read Orwell's essays from the 1930s he bemoans the fact that the British left wing intelligentsia are unique in that they hate their own country & look down on the patriotic working classes, he of course was a democratic socialist.

 

[Captain caveman]

Britain is basically a conservative country. Labour have won three out of the last twelve GEs and that was by Blair and Brown moving Labour to the centre, not left.

Thats just excepting something is fixed when it is not. Politics is ever changing.
Since the end of war world 2 there has been 7 general elction wins by labour and 12 by tories, but we have had an unprecedented 3 elections in the last 4 years, so it skews the results, because you have not given the people enough time to want to rid the party in charge.
Anyway nothing is fixed, people just a few years ago used to laugh at the environmentalists, vegans and trans women, but they are all fully accepted in society, this is not a right wing change in attitudes, its a left wing change. Give it time and the younger generation to get a foothold in politics and you will see more left wing ideas and politics being the mainstream.
Like i said citizen robert, a socialist revolution is on its way!

 

[irfan]

Thats just excepting something is fixed when it is not. Politics is ever changing.
Since the end of war world 2 there has been 7 general elction wins by labour and 12 by tories, but we have had an unprecedented 3 elections in the last 4 years, so it skews the results, because you have not given the people enough time to want to rid the party in charge.
Anyway nothing is fixed, people just a few years ago used to laugh at the environmentalists, vegans and trans women, but they are all fully accepted in society, this is not a right wing change in attitudes, its a left wing change. Give it time and the younger generation to get a foothold in politics and you will see more left wing ideas and politics being the mainstream.
Like i said citizen robert, a socialist revolution is on its way!

but then those young people become older and more conservative, seen it myself over the years. My colleagues were more left wing than me in their 20s but by the time were in 30s they were all reactionary Labour types who went along with things like the Iraq war and tuition fees

 

[Captain caveman]

In the last nearly 50 years, the only Labour leader who was ever able to get elected and create a legacy was Blair, and he did that by having a mixture of centre-left and centre-right policies.

Aside from Blair, Labour leaders have always made a lot of noise and created a lovely niche echo chamber for themselves - but when the ballot has gone out to the country as a whole, in the end the Tories have always won.

Britain is not a socialist country. It is a moderate-conservative country.

Not true!
Please read my post to robert above which addresses the same points that you have raised.

 

[Captain caveman]

but then those young people become older and more conservative, seen it myself over the years. My colleagues were more left wing than me in their 20s but by the time were in 30s they were all reactionary Labour types who went along with things like the Iraq war and tuition fees

Yes this does occur, but if you compare generation after generation of 50 + people, they are less conservative and right winged and more left wing eg acceptance of LGBTQ+ community, environmentalists, veganism etc.
We are moving left not right and the left wing politics will once again be the mainstream and the thatcherite politics will be binned until the cycle repeats itself.

 

[Robert]

Yes this does occur, but if you compare generation after generation of 50 + people, they are less conservative and right winged and more left wing eg acceptance of LGBTQ+ community, environmentalists, veganism etc.
We are moving left not right and the left wing politics will once again be the mainstream and the thatcherite politics will be binned until the cycle repeats itself.

Did you see what happened on Thursday? The Labour heartlands of the North have been overrun by blue-collar conservatism.

 

[Robert]

unfortunately so true that's what the globalist metropolitan Labour elite in London don't seem to get, the Northern working class traditional Labour type are socially conservative but want left wing econmic policies, they believe the media stuff about Corbyn not being patriotic etc, was reading some comments about such people who switched to Tory and they were bemoaning why didn't he know when the Queen's Speech was on etc and that Labour ignored their views on Brexit.

This is nothing new, if you read Orwell's essays from the 1930s he bemoans the fact that the British left wing intelligentsia are unique in that they hate their own country & look down on the patriotic working classes, he of course was a democratic socialist.

Excellent observations. London Labour turned their backs on the North.

 

[Captain caveman]

Did you see what happened on Thursday? The Labour heartlands of the North have been overrun by blue-collar conservatism.

Dont take this election as an indicator of the direction the country is moving in, this election was an anomaly due to brexit, just look what has happenened in the last decade and the three previous elections.- 2 hung parliaments and a small majority for cameron in 2015.
And before you say brexit is a right wing move, let me tell you all true socialists are anti europe, from tony benn to jeremy corbyn. Corbyn actually changed his life long views on europe for the sake of the labour party which is over run with blairites, who in part were responsible for this defeat as they continually undermined jeremy. If you dont believe corbyn is anti europe then just watch prime ministers question time, a few weeks ago, when boris mocked him on this exact fact, ironically boris has always been a lifelong pro european, he is just an opportunist who be chucked out once brexit is done.

 

[Robert]

Dont take this election as an indicator of the direction the country is moving in, this election was an anomaly due to brexit, just look what has happenened in the last decade and the three previous elections.- 2 hung parliaments and a small majority for cameron in 2015.
And before you say brexit is a right wing move, let me tell you all true socialists are anti europe, from tony benn to jeremy corbyn. Corbyn actually changed his life long views on europe for the sake of the labour party which is over run with blairites, who in part were responsible for this defeat as they continually undermined jeremy. If you dont believe corbyn is anti europe then just watch prime ministers question time, a few weeks ago, when boris mocked him on this exact fact, ironically boris has always been a lifelong pro european, he is just an opportunist who be chucked out once brexit is done.

Then they must want the working class to be poorer. This is the trouble with the Benn-Corbyn axis - dogma is more important than pragmatism, ideas are more important than people’s lives. We will all be poor but that’s ok because socialism.

 

[irfan]

Excellent observations. London Labour turned their backs on the North.

but that's what you wanted isn't it, I mean you want someone like Stamer to lead. He is responsible for the disastrous second referendum & remain policy that cost them the election, basically telling northern labour voters to eff off. I've met him a few times shopping in north London and he's as metropolitan elite as you can get. Labour leadership is too London centric, I don't know whether he is a Blairite type, hopefully not, but they need someone like Dan Jarvis as leader.

 

[Captain caveman]

Then they must want the working class to be poorer. This is the trouble with the Benn-Corbyn axis - dogma is more important than pragmatism, ideas are more important than people’s lives. We will all be poor but that’s ok because socialism.

Where are you getting this stuff from?
You are describing the capitalists.
Socialists are about equality and lifting the poor out of poverty.

 

[James]

but that's what you wanted isn't it, I mean you want someone like Stamer to lead. He is responsible for the disastrous second referendum & remain policy that cost them the election, basically telling northern labour voters to eff off. I've met him a few times shopping in north London and he's as metropolitan elite as you can get. Labour leadership is too London centric, I don't know whether he is a Blairite type, hopefully not, but they need someone like Dan Jarvis as leader.

Although I don’t really like identity politics, one has to acknowledge that eventually Labour is going to come under serious pressure to elect a leader who is not a white man. It’s getting quite embarrassing now that the Tories have had two female Prime Ministers and their Cabinet is full of women and BAME people, whereas the reputedly progressive Labour Party is still essentially run by white men in the Shadow Cabinet and the Unions.

Caroline Flint would have been a good leader, but she’s now been slung out by her constituents on the back of a blue wave, which is a genuine shame because she was a top quality MP who understood the different kinds of Labour voters.

Maybe Jess Phillips?

 

[shaz619]

The use of the word "wasteman" by white people is mostly the chavs and to be more specific far right chavs [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

 

[Robert]

Where are you getting this stuff from?
You are describing the capitalists.
Socialists are about equality and lifting the poor out of poverty.

Pragmatic socialists like Attlee, yes. Dogmatic socialists like Corbyn keep them poor, because the idea of socialism is more important to them than the people.

 

[Robert]

but that's what you wanted isn't it, I mean you want someone like Stamer to lead. He is responsible for the disastrous second referendum & remain policy that cost them the election, basically telling northern labour voters to eff off. I've met him a few times shopping in north London and he's as metropolitan elite as you can get. Labour leadership is too London centric, I don't know whether he is a Blairite type, hopefully not, but they need someone like Dan Jarvis as leader.

I would prefer Jarvis. Or Phillips. But they are pragmatists not ideologues so the cult won’t accept them.

The only reason I rate Starmer is that of the current frontbenchers he’s got brains.

 

[Markhor]

In the last nearly 50 years, the only Labour leader who was ever able to get elected and create a legacy was Blair, and he did that by having a mixture of centre-left and centre-right policies.

Aside from Blair, Labour leaders have always made a lot of noise and created a lovely niche echo chamber for themselves - but when the ballot has gone out to the country as a whole, in the end the Tories have always won.

Britain is not a socialist country. It is a moderate-conservative country.

What's the electoral sweet spot though for a Labour leader ?

It's extremely tricky to define as you need to be radical enough for your members to elect you but not too radical that you'll scare the country away; conservative enough for small town England but leftist enough for metropolitan England; tough enough on immigration for some white working class folk but not tough enough that'll you scare off the BAME vote; unionist enough for the Unionists of Scotland but not too Unionist that'll you lose the Nats.

Is it to be the right of Ed Miliband but to the left of Tony Blair ? It's an impossible job !

IMO the only Labour leader since Attlee to have gotten the balance the right between being moderate and pragmatic enough to carry the country without selling the soul and principles of the party is Harold Wilson.

 

[Bewal Express]

Unless there is some dramatic events(crash like 2008 or a war) and that can happen, Labour will be out of power until 2030s and maybe even longer. They need a Centrist with Centrist policies. They need to get momentum out of labour and create an effective opposition.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This is just the usual broken record stuff that is being trotted out ad nauseam by the Corbynites after another loss, this time a truly humiliating and massive one. No one outside of Corbyn’s shrinking fanbase is buying it.

Labour’s worst loss for over 80 years, Labour heartlands falling like skittles to a bog average Tory policy platform - and yet it’s not Jeremy’s fault at all, world’s greatest campaigner, Blairite Blairism etc. Surprised you didn’t add in the other favourites while you were at it - Brexit, media smear campaign, Zionist conspiracy, London Remainer MPs (who he was too weak a leader to control, actually).... keep going and you will have the full set of excuses.

Losing is not winning. He has failed. Totally shameless and barefaced of him to be sticking around.

Losing doesn't mean you should attack a mans character. He is not sticking around? Not sure what you are reading but he's made it clear he will leave when a new leader is agreed upon. Do not attack a mans character such as JC who has do so much for people from all backgrounds and those who needed help the most., when you haven't done jack.

 

[MenInG]

Jeremy Corbyn will remain as Labour leader for a "couple of months" into the New Year before handing over to his successor with "dignity", his close ally John McDonnell has said.

Despite pressure for Labour's top duo to quit their posts immediately following the party's bruising general election result on Thursday, the shadow chancellor argued both he and Mr Corbyn should stay for an "interim" period.

However, Mr McDonnell revealed he will leave Labour's shadow cabinet once a new leader is elected to replace Mr Corbyn in early 2020.

In the early hours of Friday, Mr Corbyn announced he would not lead Labour into another general election, but would remain as leader while the part undertook a "period of reflection".

And Mr McDonnell explained: "The National Executive Committee officers meet next week, they'll decide the timetable for a leadership election in the New Year.

"It will be the usual time - a couple of months or something like that - so that enables people to have a thorough debate about the election itself, and then choose a new leader.

Spoiler

"Then Jeremy will hand over to that new leader and that's the usual way.

"I think Jeremy will be able to do that with his usual dignity but also - because he's so committed to the party and our movement - he'll be able to enable that debate to happen and then welcome the new leader in, ready in time for us fighting the elections we'll have next May."

He added: "We always have an interim before the new leader is elected, so what better than to put the current team in - because we have a Queen's Speech and a budget by the looks of it as well.

"Use that expertise for the interim period, but also allow the rest of the party to engage in that thorough debate about the future and the new leader."


:: Listen to the Daily podcast on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Spreaker

However, Mr McDonnell ruled out remaining on Labour's front bench beyond Mr Corbyn's departure.

"We'll all go now, the new leader will come in place and appoint their shadow cabinet," he said.

"I won't be part of that shadow cabinet, I've done my bit."

Labour shed 59 seats at the general election from their 2017 election result, as Prime Minister Boris Johnson secured a crushing 80-strong majority.

Mr McDonnell blamed his party's defeat on Brexit and the "horns of that dilemma" that Labour faced in attempting to straddle the Remain/Leave divide.

He also claimed Mr Corbyn - who he described as "one of the most principled, honest, sincere, committed, anti-racist politicians" - was "demonised by a smear campaign" from the media and on social media.

But the shadow chancellor admitted some seats may have been lost by Labour due to "40 years of neglect".

Mr McDonnell has ruled out a leadership bid himself, but namechecked three leading members of Mr Corbyn's shadow cabinet - Angela Rayner, Rebecca Long Bailey and Richard Burgon - as viable contenders.

Meanwhile, shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry was tight-lipped on whether she would enter the contest to replace Mr Corbyn, telling reporters that Labour was in "a period of mourning".

"We need to be able to have a chance to stop and think," she said.

Outside of the current Labour shadow cabinet, Wigan MP Lisa Nandy is being urged to run for the leadership.

Former Labour shadow minister Gloria de Piero, who did not stand for re-election on Thursday, posted on Twitter: "No idea what ⁦@lisanandy⁩ 's plans are but I'd urge her to think about standing to be Labour Leader.

"She represents + is rooted in the communities which suffered terrible defeats. Our party needs to rediscover our heart + our soul. Lisa can do that."

Aberavon MP Stephen Kinnock blamed Labour's defeat on "weak and incompetent leadership", the party's backing for a second EU referendum as a "puppet of the People's Vote campaign", and an election manifesto that was a Christmas "wishlist".

He added: "Corbyn must apologise and resign, we need new leader by Easter."

Neil Coyle, Labour's Bermondsey & Old Southwark MP, accused Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell of a "shameless insult to voters" by refusing to depart immediately.

He tweeted: "In 2005 Tony Blair won a third consecutive general election for Labour with a majority of 67. Jeremy Corbyn & John McDonnell called for him to resign.

"In 2019 they helped hand Boris Johnson a majority of 80 & still have not had the decency to go. A shameless insult to voters."

But Mr Corbyn's son Tommy, in a statement on behalf of himself and his two brothers, urged Labour supporters who supported his father's "vision" to "continue the fight".

"To say we are proud is a vast understatement," he said.

"To assume that the ideologies he stands for are now outdated is so wrong. In the coming years we will see that they are more important than ever.

"Thank you to every person who saw his vision and supported it and supported him. From the three proudes sons on the planet, please continue the fight."

https://news.sky.com/story/general-...s-labour-leader-for-couple-of-months-11886209

 

[Robert]

Losing doesn't mean you should attack a mans character. He is not sticking around? Not sure what you are reading but he's made it clear he will leave when a new leader is agreed upon. Do not attack a mans character such as JC who has do so much for people from all backgrounds and those who needed help the most., when you haven't done jack.

His character is the cause of Labour’s downfall. His lack of self awareness, lack of patriotism and delusion of competence have led directly to this crushing defeat, the worst since 1935. The Tories have broken the previously impregnable red wall of the North. Unthinkable. Any other Labour leader would have trounced these dreadful Tories.

 

[Robert]

What's the electoral sweet spot though for a Labour leader ?

It's extremely tricky to define as you need to be radical enough for your members to elect you but not too radical that you'll scare the country away; conservative enough for small town England but leftist enough for metropolitan England; tough enough on immigration for some white working class folk but not tough enough that'll you scare off the BAME vote; unionist enough for the Unionists of Scotland but not too Unionist that'll you lose the Nats.

Is it to be the right of Ed Miliband but to the left of Tony Blair ? It's an impossible job !

IMO the only Labour leader since Attlee to have gotten the balance the right between being moderate and pragmatic enough to carry the country without selling the soul and principles of the party is Harold Wilson.

Smith would have been PM too had he lived. I believe that was where the trouble started. Blair would have been held back five or ten years, and got more experienced with better judgement and not followed Bush into Iraq.

It has to be someone if the soft left who can engage the centre voters. It has to be someone who can work cross-party and form consensus. It has to be someone who is prepared to defend the nation from our enemies. Who understands that the North is politically left but socially conservative and therefor expects the Leader to know the words to God Save the Queen, bow to the Cenotaph and know what time the Queen is on telly on Christmas Day! You may mock but Corbyn’s lack of patriotism was a massive factor in the Labour disaster.

 

[Captain caveman]

Pragmatic socialists like Attlee, yes. Dogmatic socialists like Corbyn keep them poor, because the idea of socialism is more important to them than the people.

Did you read the labour manifesto, which policy was there that would keep.the poor poor?
Corbyn is all all equalty and lifting the poor out of poverty.
You just sound like a hater of corbyn with no facts to base your hatred upon.
Quite frankly, if you had questioned labours spending promises and how they would meet them, i would be more willing to listen to your arguments, as i too had my doubts about them, especially the £50 billion plus to compensate the women who lost out on their pensions under the new tory pension laws.
But you are just spewing out personal hate for corbyn, with.no substance to back it up.

 

[Robert]

Did you read the labour manifesto, which policy was there that would keep.the poor poor?
Corbyn is all all equalty and lifting the poor out of poverty.
You just sound like a hater of corbyn with no facts to base your hatred upon.
Quite frankly, if you had questioned labours spending promises and how they would meet them, i would be more willing to listen to your arguments, as i too had my doubts about them, especially the £50 billion plus to compensate the women who lost out on their pensions under the new tory pension laws.
But you are just spewing out personal hate for corbyn, with.no substance to back it up.

The manifesto was unbelievable - far too ambitious and looked unaffordable. The 2017 one stretched credibility, but this broke it. People figured this out. If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

I don’t hate anyone. I am furious with Corbyn for not getting out of the way so someone competent could emerge and lead Labour to victory.

 

[Captain caveman]

The manifesto was unbelievable - far too ambitious and looked unaffordable. The 2017 one stretched credibility, but this broke it. People figured this out. If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

I don’t hate anyone. I am furious with Corbyn for not getting out of the way so someone competent could emerge and lead Labour to victory.

Now i can respect such comments, because there is some truth in them.
But i guess Corbyn would have argued that it was affordable, we shall never know.

 

[MenInG]

Jeremy Corbyn has apologised to Labour supporters over his party's heavy defeat in the general election.

Writing in the Sunday Mirror and the Observer, he acknowledged the party's failings in the poll and said he accepted his responsibility for it.

It comes as two likely leadership candidates - Lisa Nandy and Jess Phillips - have set out their stalls ahead of the race to succeed Mr Corbyn.

Spoiler

Boris Johnson will unveil his Queen's Speech on Thursday.

It will include a commitment to enshrine increases in spending on the NHS in England in legislation.

But cabinet minister Michael Gove would not say when the government's Withdrawal Agreement Bill would return to Parliament, telling Sky's Sophie Ridge it would be a "top priority".

Mr Johnson won a Commons majority of 80 in Thursday's general election, his party's biggest election win for 30 years, sweeping aside Labour in its traditional heartlands.

In contrast, Labour suffered its worst election result since 1935 and saw its vote share fall by 8 points.

In his open letter to the Mirror on Sunday, Mr Corbyn said: "I will make no bones about it. The result was a body blow for everyone who so desperately needs real change in our country.

"I'm sorry that we came up short and I take my responsibility for it."

But Mr Corbyn insisted he remained "proud" of the party's campaign, and that it had offered a message of "hope" in the election.

The Labour leader - who is expected to stand down early next year - added that the party is determined to regain the trust of lifelong Labour voters who had abandoned it.

Labour's "red wall" across the Midlands and the north of England - the bedrock of the party's support for generations - crumbled as the Conservatives claimed key marginal seats on Thursday night and into Friday.


Media captionBoris Johnson: "We are not the masters, we are the servants now"
Mr Johnson went to former prime minister Tony Blair's old seat of Sedgefield on Saturday to thank voters in the north of England for "breaking the voting habits of generations" to back the Conservatives.

In a speech, he acknowledged "how difficult" that decision could be and said the Conservatives would repay people's trust.

Writing in the Observer, Mr Corbyn said his own election campaign had successfully re-set the terms of debate and his manifesto would be seen as "historically important".

"I am proud that on austerity, on corporate power, on inequality and on the climate emergency we have won the arguments and rewritten the terms of political debate," he said.

However, he said there was "no quick fix to overcome the distrust of many voters".

Labour MP Margaret Hodge - a longstanding critic of Mr Corbyn's - tweeted the word "denial" in response to the article.

Among the potential candidates to take over the Labour Party leadership are Birmingham Yardley MP Ms Phillips and Wigan MP Ms Nandy.

In the Observer, Ms Phillips appeals to people to join Labour to change it, and argues that too many working-class people do not believe Labour is better than the Tories.

While Ms Nandy has said the party has lost touch with the day-to-day lives of the people it wishes to represent.

There will be initial discussions next week on drawing up a timetable for electing a new Labour leader.

The party's ruling national executive is likely to take the final decision at a special meeting in early January.

Following the Conservatives' election win, MPs will return to Westminster on Tuesday and begin the process of swearing in, before the Queen formally opens Parliament on Thursday.

Mr Johnson's Queen's Speech will include a commitment by the party to put its NHS spending plan into law as a symbol of commitment to the health service.

The Tories have said that NHS spending will reach £33.9bn each year by 2023-4.

Downing Street has confirmed there will be a review of Whitehall departments - and the Sunday papers report that the prime minister will work over Christmas on plans to merge and split different government offices.

The Sunday Telegraph says the PM's chief adviser Dominic Cummings is preparing an overhaul of the civil service to ensure it delivers on Mr Johnson's agenda.

But Mr Gove said the government would not grant Scotland another referendum on independence, despite the success of the SNP in Thursday's election.

The party, which campaigns for an independent Scotland, won 48 seats - up from 35 - and its leader, Nicola Sturgeon, said she had "earned the right to pursue the plan" for another vote.

Ms Sturgeon, who is also First Minister of Scotland, said: "They will rage against reality for as long as they can but Scotland has chosen a very different kind of future than most of the rest of the UK, and they cant stand in the way of the will of the Scottish people.

"Fundamentally democracy has to be offered and respected."

Meanwhile, the Sunday Times claims up to a third of cabinet ministers face the sack in February, Whitehall departments could be abolished and civil servants replaced by external experts.

It's also been confirmed that the government has ordered a review to consider decriminalising non-payment of the BBC licence fee - which costs £154.50 annually.

Proceedings begin when MPs gather for their first duty: to elect the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, who replaced John Bercow in November. Technically, MPs can hold a vote on this motion but this has never happened in practice.

Later in the day, the Speaker will begin the process of swearing in MPs, who are required to take an oath of allegiance to the Crown, or, if they object to this, a solemn affirmation. Those who speak or vote without having done so are deprived of their seat "as if they were dead" under the Parliamentary Oaths Act of 1866.

Two to three days are usually set aside for this process.

Thursday

This is the earliest possible day for Parliament's State Opening. The Queen's Speech is the centrepiece of this, when she will read a speech written by ministers setting out the government's programme of legislation for the parliamentary session. A couple of hours after the speech is delivered, MPs will begin debating its contents - a process which takes days.

Friday
Depending on how rapidly Boris Johnson wants to move, the debate on the Queen's Speech could continue into Friday.

This may be interrupted for a second reading debate on the Withdrawal Agreement Bill. MPs previously backed Boris Johnson's bill at its first stage but rejected his plan to fast-track the legislation through Parliament in three days in order to leave the EU by the previous 31 October Brexit deadline.

After the debate on the Queen's Speech is concluded, MPs will vote on whether to approve it. Not since 1924 has a government's Queen Speech been defeated.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50797729

 

[the Great Khan]

The manifesto was unbelievable - far too ambitious and looked unaffordable. The 2017 one stretched credibility, but this broke it. People figured this out. If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

I don’t hate anyone. I am furious with Corbyn for not getting out of the way so someone competent could emerge and lead Labour to victory.

there was nobody competent. You keep saying this but your own centrist leader lost her own seat. the centrist position is dead in british politics.

Labour lost because they moved away from their 2017 position on the referendum. Hence why people didnt believe them on their manifesto.

But I have to say the british public are the first populace I have heard of that have said" wow thats a rgeat policy but erm no way that can happen so ill just continue to trudge along in my miserable life"

its a desperate hopeless position and does not bode well for the future.

 

[Robert]

there was nobody competent. You keep saying this but your own centrist leader lost her own seat. the centrist position is dead in british politics.

Labour lost because they moved away from their 2017 position on the referendum. Hence why people didnt believe them on their manifesto.

But I have to say the british public are the first populace I have heard of that have said" wow thats a rgeat policy but erm no way that can happen so ill just continue to trudge along in my miserable life"

its a desperate hopeless position and does not bode well for the future.

This is a Corbynista view.

But I have heard from Labour activists in the North who said that for every Labour voter who felt betrayed over Brexit, four more said they could not vote for Corbyn. I have been saying this for the last four years. A sensible, credible soft left Labour front bench of Starmer, Rayner, Phillips and Jarvis would have engaged the centre and trounced these awful Tories.

Swinson shot LDs in the foot with the Revoke policy. She overplayed the Remain hand when it looked like the election was a four way race.

 

[Technics 1210]

This is a Corbynista view.

But I have heard from Labour activists in the North who said that for every Labour voter who felt betrayed over Brexit, four more said they could not vote for Corbyn. I have been saying this for the last four years. A sensible, credible soft left Labour front bench of Starmer, Rayner, Phillips and Jarvis would have engaged the centre and trounced these awful Tories.

Swinson shot LDs in the foot with the Revoke policy. She overplayed the Remain hand when it looked like the election was a four way race.

Rob, it's not a Corbynista view. It's a fact. LDs shot to pieces and so to Labour because of their position on Brexit.

In 2017 Labour gained seats by taking the 2nd referendum off the table. Same leader, same party, same shadow bench - what changed in 2019 for labour? Keeping mind, Corbyn was at the brunt end of smearing even before 2017.

Just accept the fact that denying the people a democratic result is a self inflicted death.

 

[shaz619]

Rob, it's not a Corbynista view. It's a fact. LDs shot to pieces and so to Labour because of their position on Brexit.

In 2017 Labour gained seats by taking the 2nd referendum off the table. Same leader, same party, same shadow bench - what changed in 2019 for labour? Keeping mind, Corbyn was at the brunt end of smearing even before 2017.

Just accept the fact that denying the people a democratic result is a self inflicted death.

At the very least they would have held on to their seats from 2017, the position on Brexit was definetly the final nail in the coffin, people can read their manifesto on how they would go about negotiating Brexit on page 26 from that time. In 2017 being up against a leader who was not compatible being out there also helped, JC gets criticised for being a bit timid but May was a massive jobber, Boris even though he is a ***** has more charisma

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is a Corbynista view.

But I have heard from Labour activists in the North who said that for every Labour voter who felt betrayed over Brexit, four more said they could not vote for Corbyn. I have been saying this for the last four years. A sensible, credible soft left Labour front bench of Starmer, Rayner, Phillips and Jarvis would have engaged the centre and trounced these awful Tories.

Swinson shot LDs in the foot with the Revoke policy. She overplayed the Remain hand when it looked like the election was a four way race.

The people I spoke to said they voted for Boris just to make sure Brexit got done, even if they were working class. Seems to me that they have given up on the very idea of socialism. Or it could just be that they want the benefits, just don't want foreigners coming in and being entitled to them.

 

[Robert]

Rob, it's not a Corbynista view. It's a fact. LDs shot to pieces and so to Labour because of their position on Brexit.

In 2017 Labour gained seats by taking the 2nd referendum off the table. Same leader, same party, same shadow bench - what changed in 2019 for labour? Keeping mind, Corbyn was at the brunt end of smearing even before 2017.

Just accept the fact that denying the people a democratic result is a self inflicted death.

2017: This isn’t true. A lot of people voted Labour in 2017 because
1. they thought Corbyn was for Remain because he wasn’t Tory - digital thinking;
2. May was spectacularly bad on the campaign trail;
3, the Tories shot their own base in the foot with the dementia tax.

2019: This is not what I am hearing from Labour activists. For every one who said Brexit on the doorstop, four more said Corbyn was the reason for switching to Tory. His perceived lack of patriotism was a huge issue.

 

[Captain caveman]

2017: This isn’t true. A lot of people voted Labour in 2017 because
1. they thought Corbyn was for Remain because he wasn’t Tory - digital thinking;
2. May was spectacularly bad on the campaign trail;
3, the Tories shot their own base in the foot with the dementia tax.

2019: This is not what I am hearing from Labour activists. For every one who said Brexit on the doorstop, four more said Corbyn was the reason for switching to Tory. His perceived lack of patriotism was a huge issue.

Are you a remoaner citizen robert?
I presume you are because you voted libdem(oralised).
So you still haven't accepted that this general election was all about BREXIT!

 

[Robert]

Are you a remoaner citizen robert?
I presume you are because you voted libdem(oralised).
So you still haven't accepted that this general election was all about BREXIT!

The focus has shifted to lobbying for the least destructive Brexit. Probably Canada+++ as I cannot see these Tories accepting Norway Minus.

Why the ad hominem attack? That and a restatement of an idea I have rebutted rather than rebutting my rebuttal logically point-by-point is not debate, it's just name-calling. Nobody learns anything that way.

 

[Captain caveman]

The focus has shifted to lobbying for the least destructive Brexit. Probably Canada+++ as I cannot see these Tories accepting Norway Minus.

Why the ad hominem attack? That and a restatement of an idea I have rebutted rather than rebutting my rebuttal logically point-by-point is not debate, it's just name-calling. Nobody learns anything that way.

I was only joking, apologies if you were offended.
"Why the ad hominem attack?"
Could Jeremy Corbyn not ask you that same question?

 

[The Viper]

Former Prime Minister Tony Blair says the Labour party under Jeremy Corbyn was "a glorified protest group which has brought shame on us"

 

[Technics 1210]

2017: This isn’t true. A lot of people voted Labour in 2017 because
1. they thought Corbyn was for Remain because he wasn’t Tory - digital thinking;
2. May was spectacularly bad on the campaign trail;
3, the Tories shot their own base in the foot with the dementia tax.

2019: This is not what I am hearing from Labour activists. For every one who said Brexit on the doorstop, four more said Corbyn was the reason for switching to Tory. His perceived lack of patriotism was a huge issue.

Corbyn wasn't a remainer in 2017. His track record reveals his criticism of the EU. He kept repeating the line that Labour would honour the referendum result. This is a fact. Then in 2019, In his own words, he tried to heal the nation/differences in 2019 by appealing to both sides. The kiss of death.

Come on dude! Why don't you accept the fact that denying a democratic result prior to its implementation is just plain wrong and goes against everything democratic this country stands for?

Were you ever a supporter of Labour? Judging by some your comments on Blair and Brown, I get the feeling you switched to LDs post 2016 because LDs would thwart/revert Brexit?

 

[Robert]

Corbyn wasn't a remainer in 2017. His track record reveals his criticism of the EU. He kept repeating the line that Labour would honour the referendum result. This is a fact. Then in 2019, In his own words, he tried to heal the nation/differences in 2019 by appealing to both sides. The kiss of death.

Come on dude! Why don't you accept the fact that denying a democratic result prior to its implementation is just plain wrong and goes against everything democratic this country stands for?

Were you ever a supporter of Labour? Judging by some your comments on Blair and Brown, I get the feeling you switched to LDs post 2016 because LDs would thwart/revert Brexit?

Don’t underestimate how many people are digital thinkers. Tories were for Brexit, so Labour must be for Remain. That’s how a lot of people think. There are only two positions to them - me and not-me, and anything they agree with because anchored onto the me people and what they disagree with becomes anchored onto not-me.

Additionally the 2017 manifesto was more credible and the AS scandal had not really bitten Labour.

Oligarchs at home and overseas distorted the referendum to suit their own ends and that is fundamentally undemocratic. Now you will see more and more power concentrated in very few hands while the influence of the courts is curtailed, Othering is used as a tool and we are well on the way to fascism.

I voted Labour for thirty years due to a commitment to social justice. I joined the LDs when it became clear to me that Labour were no longer seriously trying to get elected by choosing Corbyn. The pragmatic and capable left leaders of my youth were replaced by a not-very-bright messianic figure supported by a personality cult, so I was off.

Now I want to see a progressive alliance led by a moderate Labour leader supported by LD, Plaid and Greens work together for victory in 2024, then beat back the rising fascist tide.

 

[Robert]

Former Prime Minister Tony Blair says the Labour party under Jeremy Corbyn was "a glorified protest group which has brought shame on us"

He ain’t wrong.

 

[shaz619]

He ain’t wrong.

We should bomb, rape and kill everyone to make Labour great again - Mr Blair

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Corbyn wasn't a remainer in 2017. His track record reveals his criticism of the EU. He kept repeating the line that Labour would honour the referendum result. This is a fact. Then in 2019, In his own words, he tried to heal the nation/differences in 2019 by appealing to both sides. The kiss of death.

Come on dude! Why don't you accept the fact that denying a democratic result prior to its implementation is just plain wrong and goes against everything democratic this country stands for?

Were you ever a supporter of Labour? Judging by some your comments on Blair and Brown, I get the feeling you switched to LDs post 2016 because LDs would thwart/revert Brexit?

Anybody who voted for Lib Dems or any other fringe party was basically holding up the white flag to the Tories, and knowingly doing it. No shame in that, maybe deep down they thought the Conservatives will do a better job for Britain, but if it was me I would just vote Conservative if that's how I felt.