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MS Dhoni is better than Michael Bevan - He is the BEST finisher of the game

test_fan said:
He is a contender for all time World ODI XI. I can only think of Gilly as the other contender for WK-batsman. But Gilly was an opener and there are many others who can do that job as well.
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Dont be silly now. Gilchrist is an absolute LOCK for an AT ODI X1. Marvellous opening batsmen, and a solid keeper. Dhoni is not about to replace AG in anyone's mind.

MSD is a class finisher, a cool head. Gilchrist was a destroyer of attacks from ball 1.

Infact, I will postulate that Gilchrist is a LOCK for an alltime X1 in either format.
 
^ Dhoni > Gilly as a finisher

If Gilly fails to get the opening slot then i definitely see him losing to MSD in lower order.
 
Given that he offers quality batting with quality keeping, that too atop the order, I fail to see AG missing out.
 
^Wont be a problem, Dhoni makes a case for himself purely as a batsman.
 
From Dhoni Versus Bevan Now this thread has become Dhoni Versus Gilchrist comparison thread
 
Gilchrist has worse record than Sehwag, lol. Very inconsistent, His fans are too blind to note that I guess. In odis I mean.
 
To compare AG with Dhoni as ODI bastman is a joke. Dhoni has 50+ average against AG's 35. As a test batsman AG is definitely better.
 
^ That's not true my friend. Gilly was an opener and hence no not outs to boost his average like Dhoni. Gilly was a bloody good opener.

Still i'd pick Dhoni ahead of Gilly in lower order.
 
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cricketworm said:
We have been very good chasing team in ODis over the history (post- 96 of course) I think our team has record of chasing consecutive games successively, like 17-18 odis.
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It was 17.

Here are the scorecards........

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=span;template=results;type=team;view=innings

MS Dhoni was Man of the Series once and Yuvraj Singh then three times in a row.

Last unsuccessful chase was the following when Shane Bond absolutely tore them apart.......

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/217116.html

And after 17 matches, they failed to chase 199 by one run in a thriller........

http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/engine/current/match/239916.html

Yuvraj Singh was the last man dismissed for 93.

I hope that helped:).
 
We have to bring in UV when comes to chasing.
UV and Dhoni are the guys who turned our team into a good chasers. :19:
 
Velu is correct. Yuvraj is our original finisher. He's the one who started it and then came Dhoni.
 
An opener has an much better chance to score big hundreds. Lower order batsmen don't get a chance to score big hundreds easily. And it is easier to bat higher up the order in ODI ( just opposite of test cricket where it is hardest to bat at the top)

Example: Had Sachin batted at no:6 or no:7, there was no way in the world for him to score 50 ODI hundreds, he would have scored a maximum of 20 centuries and his average would be about the same due to the not outs. AG made 16 ODI centuries in 287 matches, Dhoni has just 7 hundreds in 200 matches ( much lower percentage than Gilly due to his lower batting position).

As you bat lower, you score less runs and have more not outs. The averages are pretty much the same for batsmen of equal calibre. AG has much less average to be compared to Dhoni. May be AG played in more bowler friendly conditions, but that is another topic.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
^ That's not true my friend. Gilly was an opener and hence no not outs to boost his average like Dhoni. Gilly was a bloody good opener.

Still i'd pick Dhoni ahead of Gilly in lower order.
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Try again!

MS Dhoni´s runs per innings:
37.05

Adam Gilchrist´s runs per innings:
34.47

Remember that the opener has more opportunities to score as a middle or lower order batsman finds himself with at most 20 overs to.

MS Dhoni´s runs per innings as a top order batsman (opener to third slot):
A whopping 60.61!!!

I rate neither of these higher than the other simply because I mostly do not believe in comparisons, but I don´t let people spread incorrect beliefs.
 
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Opening is easier? Let Dhoni open and we'll see how easy it is. Not many will pick Dhoni over Gilly for the opening slot. Gilly's one of the best ever at it. 1999 wc final, 2003 wc final, 2007 wc final he gave Aussies a spanking start in all those big matches. Nobody does it better than Gilly bro.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Opening is easier? Let Dhoni open and we'll see how easy it is. Not many will pick Dhoni over Gilly for the opening slot. Gilly's one of the best ever at it. 1999 wc final, 2003 wc final, 2007 wc final he gave Aussies a spanking start in all those big matches. Nobody does it better than Gilly bro.
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opening can be easier, less pressure knowing you've got others behind you, don't need to play to situation as much as middle order.

The guy was a quality opener, averaged around 36 at a SR of nearly 100, and as you said often performed in big matches. But think Dhoni was the better overall ODI batsman.

But agree that Dhoni would struggle. Dhoni's a specialist at what he does, opening I feel would just be too alien for him given his batting style and what he's used to. Plus opening, though not necessarily harder, is a specialist position. Gilly could quite frankly play anywhere if needed.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Opening is easier? Let Dhoni open and we'll see how easy it is. Not many will pick Dhoni over Gilly for the opening slot. Gilly's one of the best ever at it. 1999 wc final, 2003 wc final, 2007 wc final he gave Aussies a spanking start in all those big matches. Nobody does it better than Gilly bro.
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I never said opening is an easy job. Everything has its pros and cons I reckon. Even I would never pick MS Dhoni to open as Adam Gilchrist has a better practice and experience of doing that so well all his life. However, I wouldn´t pick the latter to do the former´s job either - i.e. finishing off the matches.
 
DHONI183 said:
MS Dhoni´s runs per innings as a top order batsman (opener to third slot):
A whopping 60.61!!!
Click to expand...

*"Hello!!!" in a Mark Nicholas style*
 
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freelance_cricketer said:
Opening is easier? Let Dhoni open and we'll see how easy it is. Not many will pick Dhoni over Gilly for the opening slot. Gilly's one of the best ever at it. 1999 wc final, 2003 wc final, 2007 wc final he gave Aussies a spanking start in all those big matches. Nobody does it better than Gilly bro.
Click to expand...

Opening used to be easier because of the rules. 15 over field restrictions, less pressure etc. And Gilly had no pressure because he was backed up by a super strong Aussie batting line up and a very destructive bowling line up. Now that we have PPs and all that I am not sure if opening is still the easier slot.

Ask Jayasuriya, Mark Greatbatch, Kaluwitarana and many others, how easily they exploited those rules.

I never said Gilly was average, he was a superb ODI batsman, just that he can't be compared to Dhoni overall. And I don't think we need compare them by moving Dhoni to the top. Compare them at their usual slots, and we will be fine. And I don't think Dhoni will struggle at the top in ODI, he will definitely bat like Sehwag at least - he will struggle in test matches

Dhoni used to be much more explosive ( as much as Gilly) before he assumed captaincy and the burden of captaincy has made him more cautious these days.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Velu is correct. Yuvraj is our original finisher. He's the one who started it and then came Dhoni.
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Not the most accurate observation once again flying around in this thread. Before MS Dhoni made his debut (23rd December 2004), Yuvraj Singh´s overall average of 29.80 was pretty average.

If by "finisher" you meant finishing off matches whilst batting second, then it made no better reading before MS Dhoni came as that average of 28.02 wasn´t the greatest in the world.

However, after MS Dhoni came to the scene they both made on of the greatest partners in the world in the middle order and ever since then to date his batting has improved vastly and has an average of 42.66 (42.48 in the second innings) from onwards.

Though, I still prefer Yuvraj Singh simply for his stylishness, ability to hit very, very big and that Punjabi stubbornness:19:! May he get well soon and hit his cancer for six sixes an over:19:!

DHONI183 said:
I never said opening is an easy job. Everything has its pros and cons I reckon. Even I would never pick MS Dhoni to open as Adam Gilchrist has a better practice and experience of doing that so well all his life. However, I wouldn´t pick the latter to do the former´s job either - i.e. finishing off the matches.
Click to expand...

IndianWillow said:
Opening used to be easier because of the rules. 15 over field restrictions, less pressure etc. And Gilly had no pressure because he was backed up by a super strong Aussie batting line up and a very destructive bowling line up. Now that we have PPs and all that I am not sure if opening is still the easier slot.

Ask Jayasuriya, Mark Greatbatch, Kaluwitarana and many others, how easily they exploited those rules.

I never said Gilly was average, he was a superb ODI batsman, just that he can't be compared to Dhoni overall. And I don't think we need compare them by moving Dhoni to the top. Compare them at their usual slots, and we will be fine. And I don't think Dhoni will struggle at the top in ODI, he will definitely bat like Sehwag at least - he will struggle in test matches

Dhoni used to be much more explosive ( as much as Gilly) before he assumed captaincy and the burden of captaincy has made him more cautious these days.
Click to expand...

Facing the new ball is not a layman´s job I will have to admit. Plus, the opposite team´s two best bowlers are operating at that time. But again, those 'two best bowlers' come back again at the death with the batsmen left with no option but to go for the shots.

I am not debating about this "opener versus finisher" thing. My stats in post #253 are enough to suggest what I have to present in this debate.
 
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Without even once claiming straight forwardly that MS Dhoni is better than Barrack Obama even in batting, I have posted 22 times in this thread (23 with this post), and I know it will continue till MS Dhoni retires from ODI cricket (at least) :)).
 
ares1000 said:
Dont be silly now. Gilchrist is an absolute LOCK for an AT ODI X1. Marvellous opening batsmen, and a solid keeper. Dhoni is not about to replace AG in anyone's mind.

MSD is a class finisher, a cool head. Gilchrist was a destroyer of attacks from ball 1.

Infact, I will postulate that Gilchrist is a LOCK for an alltime X1 in either format.
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No he is not. In test Gilly is a definite yes. Dhoni wouldn't even be anywhere near. But in ODIs Dhoni is as good as Gilly if not better. Dhoni averages 42+ outside Asia to Gilly's 35 overall. I can replace Gilly with Hayden, Jaysuriya, Sehwag etc. But lower down the order no one comes close to Dhoni and Bevan, I will have them both in my side. Please and thank you !!!
 
DHONI183 said:
It was 17.

Here are the scorecards........

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=span;template=results;type=team;view=innings

MS Dhoni was Man of the Series once and Yuvraj Singh then three times in a row.

Last unsuccessful chase was the following when Shane Bond absolutely tore them apart.......

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/217116.html

And after 17 matches, they failed to chase 199 by one run in a thriller........

http://www.espncricinfo.com/wivind/engine/current/match/239916.html

Yuvraj Singh was the last man dismissed for 93.

I hope that helped:).
Click to expand...

Wow, POTW for me :p

Thanks for bringing back those memories of Jodi number 2 = Yuvi-Msd. (Jodi number 1 is Saurav-Sachin of course)
 
test_fan said:
No he is not. In test Gilly is a definite yes. Dhoni wouldn't even be anywhere near. But in ODIs Dhoni is as good as Gilly if not better. Dhoni averages 42+ outside Asia to Gilly's 35 overall. I can replace Gilly with Hayden, Jaysuriya, Sehwag etc. But lower down the order no one comes close to Dhoni and Bevan, I will have them both in my side. Please and thank you !!!
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The thing with Gilly is he is a big match player. On his day, he can play like no one else can, far better than Dhoni, and often times scores a hundred when the next highest score of the match is less than 50. He would score freely at 9 an over when others can't even score run a ball. But, for such a big match player, he is not a consistant ODI batsman like Dhoni. You can trust Dhoni 7/10 to deliver, while only 3/10 with Gilly. AG is more like Sehwag, super dangerous on his day and otherwise just average.
 
cricketworm said:
Wow, POTW for me :p

Thanks for bringing back those memories of Jodi number 2 = Yuvi-Msd. (Jodi number 1 is Saurav-Sachin of course)
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Thanks for your appreciations.....

Yeah, a few more things to add from the following ODI where Shane Bond took six wickets........

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/217116.html

Hamish Marshall took a brilliant catch to remove Virender Sehwag, and Sunil Gavaskar in the commentary box needlessly doubted whether it was cleanly taken or not, only to be convinced by the replay to make him admit that it was a great take.

Later on, when India lost their seventh wicket in MS Dhoni, this is what Sunil Gavaskar had to say (*roughly*):

"Rahul Dravid should be given the wicket keeper´s job once again so that India can afford to play an extra batsman. There are many better option than this guy who has no foot work or technique. Our domestic structure is questionable when players such as MS Dhoni make through to the team.........."

Seven years later (from the same guy).......:

"MS Dhoni is a champion batsman....."

:D
 
MS Dhoni - Greatest ODI finisher of all time?

Damn! How many times have we seen this?

Has there ever been a better finisher in ODI cricket?
 
only 3 players in contention

Bevan, Hussey, and Dhoni

while Hussey takes the overall award, but Dhoni is better in ODI's
 
Don't know about your question, but he is an amazing player and what a humble man as well.

Well done MS!
 
One of the best finishes I have seen for a long time. I had hope till he was there, that is the belief he creates for supporters. Definitely an ODI legend.

Respect to the great man!
 
Sensational stuff, i had no doubt in my mind that he would get the 15 of the final over, Dhoni is an absolute beast, and easily the greatest ODI finisher of all time. Heck he is amongst the greats in ODI cricket let alone being the greatest finisher. Magical stuff from India
 
What a pressure cooker knock seriously and the finishing was just brutal!

:6 :4 :6
 
I don't know about greatest but I always have some hope when he is on the crease.

What a mental strength this man has, and also importantly what he humble guy he is. Others would have run around the ground, would have behaved like maniac, but he just does like it is another day at the office.

Respect to Dhoni ... The ODI legend.
 
This is Magic.. the Guy did it again same as he did in CB Series vs Australia
 
Dhoni is the only ODI batsman ever that I would allow to bat for my life. And while he bats for my life I won't even break a sweat.
 
He has crossed the tier of Sachin/Ponting in ODIs ,I have a feeling that at the end of his career he will compete with viv and wasim as an odi great.
 
Beaven is the greatest ODI finisher of all time, dhoni 2nd, but as an overall cricketer huss was better than the 2.
 
Madplayer said:
Beaven is the greatest ODI finisher of all time, dhoni 2nd, but as an overall cricketer huss was better than the 2.
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Bevan was great, had similar mental strength but he didn't have the firepower of Dhoni to hit sixes at will. He comes second.
 
Dhoni is the best ever, beven is second but he could not hit shots like dhoni
 
Madplayer said:
Beaven is the greatest ODI finisher of all time, dhoni 2nd, but as an overall cricketer huss was better than the 2.
Click to expand...

I don't think Bevan had a similar firepower regarding brutal sixes. They were very similar in their finishing like being calm and building the innings and finishing off, but I think Dhoni's brutal firepower to clear grounds gives him an edge over Bevan.

With Dhoni, even around 18-20 runs in the last over, you feel you have a chance.

MSD, the ODI legend.:msd
 
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Jo anhoni ko honi karday, honi ko anhoni, naam hai us ka Mahendra Singh Dhoni. ‪#‎IndvSL‬ ‪#‎MSD‬ ‪#‎CaptainCool‬ ‪#‎Finisher‬
 
cricketfanfirst said:
I don't know about greatest but I always have some hope when he is on the crease.

What a mental strength this man has, and also importantly what he humble guy he is. Others would have run around the ground, would have behaved like maniac, but he just does like it is another day at the office.

Respect to Dhoni ... The ODI legend.
Click to expand...

Ditto! I Was supporting India just because of Dhoni, this guy is a legend. Much Respect!
 
test_fan said:
Bevan was great, had similar mental strength but he didn't have the firepower of Dhoni to hit sixes at will. He comes second.
Click to expand...

cricketfanfirst said:
I don't think Bevan had a similar firepower regarding brutal sixes. They were very similar in their finishing like being calm and building the innings and finishing off, but I think Dhoni's brutal firepower to clear grounds gives him an edge over Bevan.

With Dhoni, even around 18-20 runs in the last over, you feel you have a chance.

MSD, the ODI legend.:msd
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tbh Its how reliable one considers a player. For me beaven was more reliable and would win u games even if u needed 150 from 120 while i believe dhoni can mostly win u games if its an 80 from 60 situation. My personal opinion, no offence to dhoni but for me beaven was better.
 
Without a doubt, he's probably one of the top 3 batsmen to ever play ODI's.
 
Madplayer said:
tbh Its how reliable one considers a player. For me beaven was more reliable and would win u games even if u needed 150 from 120 while i believe dhoni can mostly win u games if its an 80 from 60 situation. My personal opinion, no offence to dhoni but for me beaven was better.
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Sure, it is not at all to be taken as an offence nor an unfair comparison. We are bound to have certain players as our favourites which is quite natural. The thing in common between these two players was their ability to remain composed, which I think is far greater than any other ability in these tight finishes. Also, they apply their brain to target which bowlers and when.

Sometimes, I feel Dhoni takes the match too close for comfort, but he is comfortable with his own approach and more importantly has the results to show.

Today, I was confident just because Dhoni was at the crease, would have been nervous, if any other player was at the crease. Even my Dad was confident and relaxed :)
 
With him at the crease the result was never in doubt, hes a phenomenal finisher!
 
to me, dhoni is not great though.

it is like, he kicks you and throws you in the well, and then picks you up.

In all these close matches, one thing is common. he eats up balls and waits till the very last moment.

Today what he did? taking singles on the 1st ball leaving the rest of the over to the tail enders. wth?

The pressure is created by him from where he takes the team out. yes, it looks good in eyes but if you think deeper, he was one of the main culprit (excluding failures of other batsmen. I blame them too but that's not the subject here)
 
Dhoni is just luck..nothing else....
He is just galli mohalla kinda player n technic with lots of lady luck...
I bet he cud win a lottery with his kinda luck ....
 
amax said:
he has crossed the tier of sachin/ponting in odis ,i have a feeling that at the end of his career he will compete with viv and wasim as an odi great.
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lol. You are putting only 3-4 players in imaginary tier when many others can fit in the same top tier.
 
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He's the best ODI player I've seen since I started watching cricket.
 
he is a very good finisher. no doubt. but def not the best ODI batsman. He does not have the most important quality of rotating strike like beven or sachin did. Dhoni is more like Misbah but has far better success rate in finishing the game.
 
He is right up there. An unstoppable machine. Even a half-fit Dhoni >>>>> some fully-fit players. :msd has the aura. :viv
 
Dhoni is better than Bevan. He is the BEST finisher in the game

Legend!
 
Taking single run on the first ball and letting number 8/9/10 tailenders play the rest 5 balls, it's quite amuzing and fishy to me. One mistake from Ishant could have cost the game. Dhoni could have finished the game earlier rather than waiting for the 50th over. Dragging the game to the 50th over and match drifting either way, imagine the amount bookies would have rolled in the last 5 overs.

Did Dhoni do this on purpose ? I personally feel it's related to PR and his market value. Finishing the game in a easier way (on 46/47th over with 3/4 wickets in had) would have not earned him the accolades as compared to finishing the game on 50th over with 2 balls to spare and 1 wicket in hand, hitting 6-4-6.

Quite a risky decision but he knows what's profitable for him, he is a great gambler.
 
I have seen both Bevan and Dhoni play, and I have to say, Dhoni has.better allround finishing ability and performances to back that claim.
He is special.
 
Itachi said:
to me, dhoni is not great though.

it is like, he kicks you and throws you in the well, and then picks you up.

In all these close matches, one thing is common. he eats up balls and waits till the very last moment.

Today what he did? taking singles on the 1st ball leaving the rest of the over to the tail enders. wth?

The pressure is created by him from where he takes the team out. yes, it looks good in eyes but if you think deeper, he was one of the main culprit (excluding failures of other batsmen. I blame them too but that's not the subject here)
Click to expand...

Exactly the same charge was levelled at Bevan FYI
 
BeingFaridKhan said:
Jo anhoni ko honi karday, honi ko anhoni, naam hai us ka Mahendra Singh Dhoni. ‪#‎IndvSL‬ ‪#‎MSD‬ ‪#‎CaptainCool‬ ‪#‎Finisher‬
Click to expand...

Lol ... Quite apt.
More like:
"anhoni ko honi karde,
Honi ko anhoni,
ek jagah jab jama ho teeno,
Mahendra, Singh, aur Dhoni !!!
 
Bevan had the ability to play big shots but he prefer to played risk free till he gets closer to target. He remains the best runner between the wickets. Overall its a very close call between Bevan and Dhoni. Very similar stats for now. If they played in the same team. I would have bet on them to chase tough targets 99 out of 100 times.
 
GrandMaster said:
Taking single run on the first ball and letting number 8/9/10 tailenders play the rest 5 balls, it's quite amuzing and fishy to me. One mistake from Ishant could have cost the game. Dhoni could have finished the game earlier rather than waiting for the 50th over. Dragging the game to the 50th over and match drifting either way, imagine the amount bookies would have rolled in the last 5 overs.

Did Dhoni do this on purpose ? I personally feel it's related to PR and his market value. Finishing the game in a easier way (on 46/47th over with 3/4 wickets in had) would have not earned him the accolades as compared to finishing the game on 50th over with 2 balls to spare and 1 wicket in hand, hitting 6-4-6.

Quite a risky decision but he knows what's profitable for him, he is a great gambler.
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I think Gambhir had said something on the lines of Dhoni leaving things till the end to finish.
Might be a PR thing for him.
I just could not understand him taking singles and putting tail enders at strike and putting off things till the last over.
 
It seemed as if he purposely created the last over situation !!!! There were many many dot balls that he played. I am sure, if he wanted, he could have taken singles from som of those. But one can't forget that he was playing with the tail - enders. So can't say .... The whole thing was a mix bag of ups and downs. The moment Dhoni won the toss, I was sure that they would chase ..... and boy are they good chasers !!!
Never let the Indians chase a score. Most likely they would reach the target. Great job MS !!!
 
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