Mughal Empire Appreciation Thread - Positive Contributions of Mughals in Indian Subcontinent

[sweep_shot]

Many Indian posters here try to paint Mughals as invaders and looters while ignoring their various positive contributions. I am making this thread to highlight some of those contributions.

Here is the list:

Architecture: Mughals managed to achieve incredible architectural achievements. One of their buildings (Taj Mahal) is now considered as one of the seven wonders of the world. Another example would be Red Fort in Delhi.

Bringing Indian subcontinent under one domain: Prior to Mughals, Indian subcontinent was divided into many different empires. Mughals managed to unify some of those empires. I think it is fair to say Mughals have had a significant contribution behind Akhand Bharat.

Administrative Contributions: Various administrative features of Mughals were eventually adopted by future empires (Rajput, Maratha, and British).


Economic Contributions:

The Mughal economy was large and prosperous. India was producing 24.5% of the world's manufacturing output up until 1750. India's economy has been described as a form of proto-industrialization, like that of 18th-century Western Europe prior to the Industrial Revolution.

The Mughals were responsible for building an extensive road system, creating a uniform currency, and the unification of the country. The empire had an extensive road network, which was vital to the economic infrastructure, built by a public works department set up by the Mughals which designed, constructed and maintained roads linking towns and cities across the empire, making trade easier to conduct.

The main base of the empire's collective wealth was agricultural taxes, instituted by the third Mughal emperor, Akbar. These taxes, which amounted to well over half the output of a peasant cultivator, were paid in the well-regulated silver currency, and caused peasants and artisans to enter larger markets.

Agricultural Contributions:

Indian agricultural production increased under the Mughal Empire. A variety of crops were grown, including food crops such as wheat, rice, and barley, and non-food cash crops such as cotton, indigo and opium. By the mid-17th century, Indian cultivators begun to extensively grow two new crops from the Americas, maize and tobacco.

The Mughal administration emphasised agrarian reform, which began under the non-Mughal emperor Sher Shah Suri, the work of which Akbar adopted and furthered with more reforms. The civil administration was organised in a hierarchical manner on the basis of merit, with promotions based on performance.[125] The Mughal government funded the building of irrigation systems across the empire, which produced much higher crop yields and increased the net revenue base, leading to increased agricultural production.

A major Mughal reform introduced by Akbar was a new land revenue system called zabt. He replaced the tribute system, previously common in India and used by Tokugawa Japan at the time, with a monetary tax system based on a uniform currency. The revenue system was biased in favour of higher value cash crops such as cotton, indigo, sugar cane, tree-crops, and opium, providing state incentives to grow cash crops, in addition to rising market demand. Under the zabt system, the Mughals also conducted extensive cadastral surveying to assess the area of land under plow cultivation, with the Mughal state encouraging greater land cultivation by offering tax-free periods to those who brought new land under cultivation. The expansion of agriculture and cultivation continued under later Mughal emperors including Aurangzeb, whose 1665 firman edict stated: "the entire elevated attention and desires of the Emperor are devoted to the increase in the population and cultivation of the Empire and the welfare of the whole peasantry and the entire people."

Mughal agriculture was in some ways advanced compared to European agriculture at the time, exemplified by the common use of the seed drill among Indian peasants before its adoption in Europe. While the average peasant across the world was only skilled in growing very few crops, the average Indian peasant was skilled in growing a wide variety of food and non-food crops, increasing their productivity. Indian peasants were also quick to adapt to profitable new crops, such as maize and tobacco from the New World being rapidly adopted and widely cultivated across Mughal India between 1600 and 1650. Bengali farmers rapidly learned techniques of mulberry cultivation and sericulture, establishing Bengal Subah as a major silk-producing region of the world. Sugar mills appeared in India shortly before the Mughal era. Evidence for the use of a draw bar for sugar-milling appears at Delhi in 1540, but may also date back earlier, and was mainly used in the northern Indian subcontinent. Geared sugar rolling mills first appeared in Mughal India, using the principle of rollers as well as worm gearing, by the 17th century.

According to economic historian Immanuel Wallerstein, citing evidence from Irfan Habib, Percival Spear, and Ashok Desai, per-capita agricultural output and standards of consumption in 17th-century Mughal India were probably higher than in 17th-century Europe and certainly higher than early 20th-century British India. The increased agricultural productivity led to lower food prices. In turn, this benefited the Indian textile industry. Compared to Britain, the price of grain was about one-half in South India and one-third in Bengal, in terms of silver coinage. This resulted in lower silver coin prices for Indian textiles, giving them a price advantage in global markets.

Shipbuilding Industry:

Mughal India had a large shipbuilding industry, which was also largely centred in the Bengal province. Economic historian Indrajit Ray estimates shipbuilding output of Bengal during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries at 223,250 tons annually, compared with 23,061 tons produced in nineteen colonies in North America from 1769 to 1771.[145] He also assesses ship repairing as very advanced in Bengal.[145]

An important innovation in shipbuilding was the introduction of a flushed deck design in Bengal rice ships, resulting in hulls that were stronger and less prone to leak than the structurally weak hulls of traditional European ships built with a stepped deck design. The British East India Company later duplicated the flushed deck and hull designs of Bengal rice ships in the 1760s, leading to significant improvements in seaworthiness and navigation for European ships during the Industrial Revolution.

Mughal Textile Industry:

The largest manufacturing industry in the Mughal Empire was textile manufacturing, particularly cotton textile manufacturing, which included the production of piece goods, calicos, and muslins, available unbleached and in a variety of colours. The cotton textile industry was responsible for a large part of the empire's international trade. India had a 25% share of the global textile trade in the early 18th century. Indian cotton textiles were the most important manufactured goods in world trade in the 18th century, consumed across the world from the Americas to Japan. By the early 18th century, Mughal Indian textiles were clothing people across the Indian subcontinent, Southeast Asia, Europe, the Americas, Africa, and the Middle East. The most important centre of cotton production was the Bengal province, particularly around its capital city of Dhaka.

References:

Mughal Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Contribution of the Mughals in Various Fields

The Mughal rulers made a great contribution in various fields i.e. administrative, cultural, economic, political and religious. Administrative contribution: Several aspects of the Mughal administration were adopted not only by the Rajput and Maratha rulers but also by the British. The land...

www.historydiscussion.net

New Seven Wonders of the World | Britannica

This Encyclopedia Britannica History list explores the New Seven Wonders of the World.

www.britannica.com

 

[FearlessRoar]

Let's not overlook the positive side of the Mughal Empire in India. Their era brought about cultural fusion, economic growth, and incredible architectural achievements. From religious tolerance to administrative reforms, their legacy is more than just controversies. Let's consider the broader picture and appreciate the diverse contributions that shaped India's history.

 

[sweep_shot]

Let's not overlook the positive side of the Mughal Empire in India. Their era brought about cultural fusion, economic growth, and incredible architectural achievements. From religious tolerance to administrative reforms, their legacy is more than just controversies. Let's consider the broader picture and appreciate the diverse contributions that shaped India's history.

Exactly.

It is not all "invading and looting" like some BJP Indians make it out to be. Mughals have made some significant contributions as highlighted on the first post.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Anyone who has read the baburnaama?

 

[Varun]

Great architecture, great inputs to cuisine, and a relatively prosperous period for the Indian sub-continent.

Sadly by the time the 1700s came around it was clear that they didn't take us out of the middle ages, and we were ripe for the taking by the European colonial powers.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Exactly.

It is not all "invading and looting" like some BJP Indians make it out to be. Mughals have made some significant contributions as highlighted on the first post.

You agree that there was invading and looting, but that is not the full picture, and they also made positive contributions? If that is your assertion, it is a correct one.

 

[sweep_shot]

You agree that there was invading and looting, but that is not the full picture, and they also made positive contributions? If that is your assertion, it is a correct one.

This thread is about their positive contributions.

Anyone who has read the baburnaama?

Nope. I haven't read this. What is it about?

 

[BouncerGuy]

One of the positive contributions from the Mughals was the expansion of trades that contributed to the region's economic growth. That growth is still visible in Indian region till now.

 

[CricketCartoons]

This thread is about their positive contributions.



Nope. I haven't read this. What is it about?

Of course, but I was following from your post, where you said it is not all about invading and looting, but there are positive contributions as well. You agree that there was invading and looting, but that is not the complete picture and they made positive contributions as well? Wanted to confirm if you have the complete view, or you are just like those BJP leaders you complained about who only see one side?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Nope. I haven't read this. What is it about?

It is babur's autobiography. I would be suprised if anyone in this thread has read baburnaama, but you should read it.

 

[sweep_shot]

It is babur's autobiography. I would be suprised if anyone in this thread has read baburnaama, but you should read it.

Thanks. I may check it out.

Of course, but I was following from your post, where you said it is not all about invading and looting, but there are positive contributions as well. You agree that there was invading and looting, but that is not the complete picture and they made positive contributions as well? Wanted to confirm if you have the complete view, or you are just like those BJP leaders you complained about who only see one side?

Is there any factual evidence that they systematically looted (from neutral and verifiable sources)?

I think they have done great things overall when all things are considered. A few bad apples shouldn't tarnish their overall legacy.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Thanks. I may check it out.



Is there any factual evidence that they systematically looted (from neutral and verifiable sources)?

I think they have done great things overall when all things are considered. A few bad apples shouldn't tarnish their overall legacy.

What can be more verifiable than baburnaama? There are more first person accounts, but this is a good start.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

The good thing about the mughals was that atleast they integrated unlike the British

 

[CricketCartoons]

The good thing about the mughals was that atleast they integrated unlike the British

How is that a good thing?

 

[Hitman]

What can be more verifiable than baburnaama? There are more first person accounts, but this is a good start.

Ordered it from Amazon a couple of days ago. The one translated by Jr. Thackston, W.M. Not because I admire those barbaric looters but because I want to know history in minute details. I have read extensively about the Nazis, the Holocaust, etc as well. Doesn't mean I admire them. Like everyone else, I consider them animals in human bodies.

 

[Suleiman]

The greatest thing to happen to Indian subcontinent.

India hasn’t seen such heights since.

A lot of Indians today are full of ingratitude while simultaneously engaging in some good ol fashioned bootlicking for their ex colonial masters who did far more harm than good.

 

[IndoorCricket]

The only appreciation for Mughals/ Invaders is that they have failed to wipe out indigenous culture and its spiritual ethos whereas in other places the entire indigenous cultures were wiped off.

 

[Suleiman]

India’s GDP accounted for 24% of the world’s economy at its peak under the Mughal Empire in 1600s.

British Empire looted $46 trillion in their reign in India. Widespread famine and poverty was a hallmark of their reign as they drained the land dry of resources.

Yet the brainwashing going on India regarding the “evils” of the Mughals in their textbooks is non stop while each and every one of them is frothing at the mouth to be acknowledged by an angraiz tourist

 

[Hitman]

The only appreciation for Mughals/ Invaders is that they have failed to wipe out indigenous culture and its spiritual ethos whereas in other places the entire indigenous cultures were wiped off.

Yogi Adityanath said it best, the descendants of Bahadur Shah Zafar are cleaning dishes these days, snd the descendants of Tipu Sultan are driving rickshaws.

 

[Theanonymousone]

The greatest thing to happen to Indian subcontinent.

India hasn’t seen such heights since.

A lot of Indians today are full of ingratitude while simultaneously engaging in some good ol fashioned bootlicking for their ex colonial masters who did far more harm than good.

This is funny

If India-British trade relationships are called bootlicking, what does Pak-US relationship will be named?

People support Mughals here because of their religion. India was already rich by the time Mughals invaded, but didnt become rich cause they invaded.

Bringing religion into everything has become a trend here including history and culture.

India has rich cultural history today because of our own Indic culture and traditions. India is multi-cultural today because of our religious tolerance and secularism. Not because of Mughals.

Its more comical to attribute the current Indian growth to Mughal rule in one of the post above

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Yogi Adityanath said it best, the descendants of Bahadur Shah Zafar are cleaning dishes these days, snd the descendants of Tipu Sultan are driving rickshaws.

What will Yogi's descendants do?

 

[CricketCartoons]

The greatest thing to happen to Indian subcontinent Muslims.

Fixed.

 

[Hitman]

What will Yogi's descendants do?

No issues unless then don't invade other people's land, rob/loot them, and disgrace their ancestors.

 

[Hitman]

No issues unless then don't invade other people's land, rob/loot them, and disgrace their ancestors.

But sorry to say, he is unmarried and doesn't have kids.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

But sorry to say, he is unmarried and doesn't have kids.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.....

 

[cricketjoshila]

Architecture: Mughals came from Central Asia? What have these Timurids built there? Great Architecture existed in India long before the Mughals arrived. Grand temples were built. Most were destroyed and looted by the invading hordes but some in Southern India have survived. Like the Brihadeshwar temple or the Ellora Kailasa temple.

The Taj Mahal was built by Indian artisans using material from India just like their Ancestors did.

So Mughals didn't bring great Architecture to India. It already
existed.

The Mauryans had already united India long before the Mughals. The Guptas too ruled most of the Northern Subcontinent and upto Deccan. So the Mughals didn't do anything new.

Cholas were building navies and conquering the South Asia long before the Mughals arrived on Indian shores. Mughals from a land locked Central Asia brought shipbuilding. .

Indians were exporting textiles and Indigo to the Romans. Mughals didn't introduce them here.

Wheat and Barley has been grown in India for millenias.

Infact it was the Europeans who introduced newer crops to India not the Mughals.

Between the 1 to 1000AD India constituted 30 per cent of the world GDP. So actually under muslim rule from Delhi Sultanate to the Mughals Indian GDP fell.

Silver coins found in India, that are punched marked have been dated to 500BC. So Mughals didn't introduce it in India.

Throughout history India was a very prosperous geographical location. Traders from Europe Arabia Central Asia China all came here to trade.

In the 15th Century, Vijaynagar was considered the second greatest city in the world after Beijing.

So a lot of things are attributed to the Timurids, that was already existing in India.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Its like people are having Stockholm syndrome through generations. They admire people who have looted, raped and killed their ancestors brutally out of bigotry and which finds its justification in religion. The meek have surrendered and joined the invaders. The strong stuck to their roots and still thriving. Massive L to invaders to be honest, there was no unity in those times in India but still failed to wipe out its identity.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The good thing about the mughals was that atleast they integrated unlike the British

Integrated how?

They refused to even use the local language. All their official work was done using Persian.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Its like people are having Stockholm syndrome through generations. They admire people who have looted, raped and killed their ancestors brutally out of bigotry and which finds its justification in religion. The meek have surrendered and joined the invaders. The strong stuck to their roots and still thriving. Massive L to invaders to be honest, there was no unity in those times in India but still failed to wipe out its identity.

Mughals failed to convert the entire subcontinental population. Else like many other ancient civilizations which now look down on their pre Islamic heritage, we too would have done the same.

Thankfully our ancestors resisted for centuries to preserve our religion and culture.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Its like people are having Stockholm syndrome through generations. They admire people who have looted, raped and killed their ancestors brutally out of bigotry and which finds its justification in religion. The meek have surrendered and joined the invaders. The strong stuck to their roots and still thriving. Massive L to invaders to be honest, there was no unity in those times in India but still failed to wipe out its identity.

What was its identity despite the lack of unity?

 

[IndoorCricket]

Have to appreciate Mughals for making muslims lowest of the rug in the nation. I stay in Telangana state, and old city conditions until recently were pathetic. They keep selecting the same losers based on religion, getting brain washed in madrasas, they keep them uneducated and loot votes. Majority of the converted muslims conditions are worse than before. Overgrown family size and no opportunities. Massive L again. Thoroughly appreciated.

 

[IndoorCricket]

What was its identity despite the lack of unity?

Sat-Chit-Ananda

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Architecture: Mughals came from Central Asia? What have these Timurids built there? Great Architecture existed in India long before the Mughals arrived. Grand temples were built. Most were destroyed and looted by the invading hordes but some in Southern India have survived. Like the Brihadeshwar temple or the Ellora Kailasa temple.

The Taj Mahal was built by Indian artisans using material from India just like their Ancestors did.

So Mughals didn't bring great Architecture to India. It already
existed.

The Mauryans had already united India long before the Mughals. The Guptas too ruled most of the Northern Subcontinent and upto Deccan. So the Mughals didn't do anything new.

Cholas were building navies and conquering the South Asia long before the Mughals arrived on Indian shores. Mughals from a land locked Central Asia brought shipbuilding. .

Indians were exporting textiles and Indigo to the Romans. Mughals didn't introduce them here.

Wheat and Barley has been grown in India for millenias.

Infact it was the Europeans who introduced newer crops to India not the Mughals.

Between the 1 to 1000AD India constituted 30 per cent of the world GDP. So actually under muslim rule from Delhi Sultanate to the Mughals Indian GDP fell.

Silver coins found in India, that are punched marked have been dated to 500BC. So Mughals didn't introduce it in India.

Throughout history India was a very prosperous geographical location. Traders from Europe Arabia Central Asia China all came here to trade.

In the 15th Century, Vijaynagar was considered the second greatest city in the world after Beijing.

So a lot of things are attributed to the Timurids, that was already existing in India.

Who were the cholas invading and conquering with their navies in South Asia?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Sat-Chit-Ananda

Sorry please explain more I dont understand this.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Integrated how?

They refused to even use the local language. All their official work was done using Persian.

Persian is indeed a classical language. Should have they used urdu instead? Urdu was a street level language. In fact later urdu copied Persian words to sound classy, but if you want to know the true nature of urdu read zatalli's book. hint: most of the abuses used in pakistan and northern india are in urdu.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Sorry please explain more I dont understand this.

From Wiki :-

It represents "existence, consciousness, and bliss" or "truth, consciousness, bliss".

The term is contextually related to "the ultimate reality" in various schools of Hindu traditions. In theistic traditions, satcitananda is the same as God such as Vishu Shiva or Goddess in Shakti traditions. In monist traditions, satcitananda is considered directly inseparable from nirguna (attributeless) Brahman or the "universal ground of all beings", wherein the Brahman is identical with Atman, the true individual self.

In essence, we are all one. This spiritual belief is the identity of Bharath through ages till now.

 

[Varun]

Have to appreciate Mughals for making muslims lowest of the rug in the nation. I stay in Telangana state, and old city conditions until recently were pathetic. They keep selecting the same losers based on religion, getting brain washed in madrasas, they keep them uneducated and loot votes. Majority of the converted muslims conditions are worse than before. Overgrown family size and no opportunities. Massive L again. Thoroughly appreciated.

1. What has the contemporary situation of Hyderabad got to do with the Mughals?

2. You say "until recently". What has changed? Are you referring to the recent state elections?

 

[Vikram1989]

Taxing majority for their religion , looting temples etc won't be small.thingsbto forget to count positives .Other than babar and Jahangir,no one was tolerant and collected jijiya tax.Shajahan buit taj mahal for his personal reasons not for any public cause.His own son did not bothered about it and jailed his father in the cell opposite to the taj.

It's like British saying we brought positives like Trains,English etc even though we killed and looted subcontinent people ,made them dirt poor etc

 

[Vikram1989]

1. What has the contemporary situation of Hyderabad got to do with the Mughals?

2. You say "until recently". What has changed? Are you referring to the recent state elections?

Let me answer as am from there.He is referring to the mentality of Muslims voting for majlis evn though majlis won't care about any development. Old city (where Muslims stayed ) is so risky that any one won't get a credit card too irrespective of Ur religion. Till 10 years ago,there was a riot on every Friday afternoon after prayer. U can see the huge bombings from 2004 to 2014 for every year.

Now metro is coming and after 70k cctvs through out the city(most heavily guarded in india),it's getting normal now a days.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Taxing majority for their religion , looting temples etc won't be small.thingsbto forget to count positives .Other than babar and Jahangir,no one was tolerant and collected jijiya tax.Shajahan buit taj mahal for his personal reasons not for any public cause.His own son did not bothered about it and jailed his father in the cell opposite to the taj.

It's like British saying we brought positives like Trains,English etc even though we killed and looted subcontinent people ,made them dirt poor etc

As a hindu obviously you will not see the positive contribution. But mughals were successful in moving the muslim civilzation forward, and had it not been for british they would have taken it further.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Integrated how?

They refused to even use the local language. All their official work was done using Persian.

I meant compared to the British, the mughals were still brutal tyrants

 

[Vikram1989]

1. What has the contemporary situation of Hyderabad got to do with the Mughals?

2. You say "until recently". What has changed? Are you referring to the recent state elections?

Erstwhile congress cm ysr released a terrorist on humanitarian grounds only to see that guy killed 300 people in bomb blast in 2013

 

[Vikram1989]

As a hindu obviously you will not see the positive contribution. But mughals were successful in moving the muslim civilzation forward, and had it not been for british they would have taken it further.

Can u pls elaborate for muslim civilisation forward.. They worked as missionary for conversion and preferred only muslims.So how can anyone be considered as a ruler if they have not worked for all.We won't respect a manager who prefers his race /religion alone.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Can u pls elaborate for muslim civilisation forward.. They worked as missionary for conversion and preferred only muslims.So how can anyone be considered as a ruler if they have not worked for all.We won't respect a manager who prefers his race /religion alone.

That is why you hindus have been always at the receiving end. You try to be secular when everyone else is looking after their own. Some years ago people in my society wanted a temple in the complex where they could pray. But hindus started protesting that why only a temple, we should have a mosque, church and gurudwara too, when 95% population was hindu. Their virtue signalling and stalling any effort by a hindu to serve the community is the reason they are where they are. I had to involve the RSS to sort out the matter.

 

[sweep_shot]

Yogi Adityanath said it best, the descendants of Bahadur Shah Zafar are cleaning dishes these days, snd the descendants of Tipu Sultan are driving rickshaws.

Many people in subcontinent do these odd/labor jobs regardless of religions. Are you saying all Hindus in subcontinent have luxurious jobs/lifestyles?

Ordered it from Amazon a couple of days ago. The one translated by Jr. Thackston, W.M. Not because I admire those barbaric looters but because I want to know history in minute details. I have read extensively about the Nazis, the Holocaust, etc as well. Doesn't mean I admire them. Like everyone else, I consider them animals in human bodies.

Comparing Mughals to Nazis is laughable. If they are Nazis, many past empires would be Nazis too including British Empire. Check how much British Empire have looted and how many they have killed. Check what Portuguese Empire did in Goa.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Mughals or Mongols are Turkic-Mongol people. They were basically cattle and horse herders. They built nothing of significance there before they came to India. However, things changed for them once they gained power in India.
Stability
Subcontinent offered them lots of resources and they provided the stability that led to periods of relative peace. Even Mughals adopted to the sedentary lives in India leaving behind their violent ways in Central Asia.
Monuments
Mughal monarchs built some big monuments for their beloved ones. Taj Mahal, Qutub Minar, Jama Masjid(of its time).
Cuisine
They also did a fusion of Indian+ Turkic + Persian cuisine. They were clear foodies. The Mughal cuisine is still popular around the world.
Culture/Language/Religion
Islam flourished under them and Persian was the official language. Urdu developed under them and got patronage.
People forget their influence on Hinduism. Hinduism was forced to organize itself into a proper religion rather than just another philosophy like Buddhism or Jainism. Things like religious processions, concept of heaven & hell took shape in Hinduism. Hindus started writing down their religion and its stories rather than just mere oral transmissions.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Many people in subcontinent do these odd/labor jobs regardless of religions. Are you saying all Hindus in subcontinent have luxurious jobs/lifestyles?




Comparing Mughals to Nazis is laughable. If they are Nazis, many past empires would be Nazis too including British Empire. Check how much British Empire have looted and how many they have killed. Check what Portuguese Empire did in Goa.

Mughals did nothing for common people. It was all about them and their dozens of kids. Whatever structures they have built or contributions they made was not for the benefit of people. However they did spread Islam vastly among people and introduced a new religion to the masses. Something that was completely opposite of the existing philosophies like Jainism or Hinduism or Buddhism.

 

[sweep_shot]

Mughals did nothing for common people. It was all about them and their dozens of kids.

That is not true.

Check first post.

 

[ChennaiFan]

A portion of people who resisted forceful conversion were killed; the rest survived with their own identities. A portion of weak people got converted. A few generations later their descendants are praising the aggressors!

This could be because of their religious identity or it is a coping mechanism.

 

[JaDed]

The greatest thing to happen to Indian subcontinent.

India hasn’t seen such heights since.

A lot of Indians today are full of ingratitude while simultaneously engaging in some good ol fashioned bootlicking for their ex colonial masters who did far more harm than good.

Indians never engage with British. Our movies across languages demonise the Brits more than any other.

 

[JaDed]

Mughals contribution is very much like Jews towards Jerusalem, Now Tel aviv and Jerusalem are so ahead in technology thanks to them.

Yes some good some bad.

 

[sweep_shot]

Mughals contribution is very much like Jews towards Jerusalem, Now Tel aviv and Jerusalem are so ahead in technology thanks to them.

Yes some good some bad.

Again, comparing Mughals to Jews shows massive ignorance. Two cases aren't the same. Apples and oranges.

Israelis made native Palestinians leave. Look up "Naqba". Under Mughals, Hindus didn't have to leave.

 

[JaDed]

Again, comparing Mughals to Israel shows massive ignorance. Two cases aren't the same. Apples and oranges.

Please don't derail this thread.

Not apple and oranges but same thing as you said I’m pointing out how infrastructure etc you mentioned has been been done by Israel as well.

Tel aviv is center of tech so much advancement.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Mughals contribution is very much like Zionist towards Jerusalem, Now Tel aviv and Jerusalem are so ahead in technology thanks to them.

Yes some good some bad.

Not a fair comparison. Israelis have done more positive contribution (unlike fake ones like monuments and food) and dare say that if palestinians cooperated then they would get to see the benefits of more positive contribution. Mughals were not academically or scientifically minded. Their monuments were vanity projects, not universities or institutions. Unlike say the British who had intellectual curiosity and did lot of research in archaeology and native languages and texts.

 

[JaDed]

Not a fair comparison. Israelis have done more positive contribution (unlike fake ones like monuments and food) and dare say that if palestinians cooperated then they would get to see the benefits of more positive contribution. Mughals were not academically or scientifically minded. Their monuments were vanity projects, not universities or institutions. Unlike say the British who had intellectual curiosity and did lot of research in archaeology and native languages and texts.

Different times , Mughals were not a civilized but kings, they were product of their time and they just wanted to rule by hook or crook.

Israel wanted advancement of the region hence all the tech.

British already had universities back in their country and a curious mind but they also caused enough issues and felt race superiority like Mughals did.

 

[Champ_Pal]

That is not true.

Check first post.

India was already an agrarian society. Mughals brought some additional crops from Persia. Same with British and Portuguese.

When we talk about benefiting people, it is things like transit systems, aqueducts, dams, waterways, scientific achievements etc. India was already trading with other cultures for more than a millennia. Islamic rule was in India since the 13th century all the way to the end of 1800. They had more than enough time to do something. No excuses.

Brits looted. But they gave India its basic highways, railroad system, modern education. They also built bridges, dams and some of them are still in use. May be they got decommissioned now.

 

[sweep_shot]

India was already an agrarian society. Mughals brought some additional crops from Persia. Same with British and Portuguese.

When we talk about benefiting people, it is things like transit systems, aqueducts, dams, waterways, scientific achievements etc. India was already trading with other cultures for more than a millennia. Islamic rule was in India since the 13th century all the way to the end of 1800. They had more than enough time to do something. No excuses.

Brits looted. But they gave India its basic highways, railroad system, modern education. They also built bridges, dams and some of them are still in use. May be they got decommissioned now.

Doesn't seem like you have checked the first post.

I am copying a section from the first post.

Economic Contributions:

The Mughal economy was large and prosperous. India was producing 24.5% of the world's manufacturing output up until 1750. India's economy has been described as a form of proto-industrialization, like that of 18th-century Western Europe prior to the Industrial Revolution.

The Mughals were responsible for building an extensive road system, creating a uniform currency, and the unification of the country. The empire had an extensive road network, which was vital to the economic infrastructure, built by a public works department set up by the Mughals which designed, constructed and maintained roads linking towns and cities across the empire, making trade easier to conduct.

The main base of the empire's collective wealth was agricultural taxes, instituted by the third Mughal emperor, Akbar. These taxes, which amounted to well over half the output of a peasant cultivator, were paid in the well-regulated silver currency, and caused peasants and artisans to enter larger markets.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire.

 

[Suleiman]

Mughals contribution is very much like Zionist towards Jerusalem, Now Tel aviv and Jerusalem are so ahead in technology thanks to them.

Yes some good some bad.

Not even close. Israel needs constant hand holding by US and friends to get to anywhere close to where they are now in advancement. The land was gift wrapped to them by the Allies. Did zilch to get it themselves.

Mughals were self made.

 

[Suleiman]

A portion of people who resisted forceful conversion were killed; the rest survived with their own identities. A portion of weak people got converted. A few generations later their descendants are praising the aggressors!

This could be because of their religious identity or it is a coping mechanism.

You can’t force someone to convert, because even if they say yes, you can’t change what’s in their heart.

They converted because it’s the truth.

That’s how it’s been for every messenger sent by God. To bring mankind to realize His Oneness for man’s own good while Satan tries to tempt man to worship false idols.

Mughal empire was a blessing for India.
Sadly the pagans in charge today are trying their best to rewrite history.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Doesn't seem like you have checked the first post.

I am copying a section from the first post.

Economic Contributions:



Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire.

Dusty and unpaved roads don't count. India already had them. Some new dusty ones means nothing. They would be as bad as the old ones during monsoons.

I do agree that they provided stability as they unified all broken kingdoms.

 

[JaDed]

Not even close. Israel needs constant hand holding by US and friends to get to anywhere close to where they are now in advancement. The land was gift wrapped to them by the Allies. Did zilch to get it themselves.

Mughals were self made.

No bro Israel is self made in a way like it’s part of Zionist empire where they have taken over world banking media etc and call the shots.

From being targeted to ruling the world requires smarts not to forget America doesn't have free healthcare yet we give them money and they have free healthcare lol

 

[JaDed]

You can’t force someone to convert, because even if they say yes, you can’t change what’s in their heart.

They converted because it’s the truth.

That’s how it’s been for every messenger sent by God. To bring mankind to realize His Oneness for man’s own good while Satan tries to tempt man to worship false idols.

Mughal empire was a blessing for India.
Sadly the pagans in charge today are trying their best to rewrite history.

I realised that faith in my dharmic religion has become much more stronger thanks constant attacks by Abrahamic religions and Seculars, god bless them for uniting the Dharmic religions , something RSS took so long to do.

BJp went from winning 1 seat in 1984 to most probably having a good chance for third term lol

 

[sweep_shot]

You can’t force someone to convert, because even if they say yes, you can’t change what’s in their heart.

They converted because it’s the truth.

Well said.

If they didn't believe in Islam after converting, they could've converted back to paganism/Hinduism later on. But, that didn't happen. It shows conversions were genuine.

Even to this day, many people are converting to Islam worldwide; nobody is forcing them. Islam is spreading in South America, for example.

It seems like some of these Indians are brainwashed by BJP's textbooks.

 

[sweep_shot]

I realised that faith in my dharmic religion has become much more stronger thanks constant attacks by Abrahamic religions and Seculars, god bless them for uniting the Dharmic religions , something RSS took so long to do.

BJp went from winning 1 seat in 1984 to most probably having a good chance for third term lol

Are you not a secular yourself? I thought you were an atheist.

You said before you don't believe in religion. You now say you follow dharmic religion. Make up your mind.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Muslims falsely take pride in the Mughal empire when they were, at best , heterodox Muslims if not completely irreligious.

Aurangzeb was probably the only orthodox Muslim amongst them and perhaps that's why he is clearly revered the most among Pakistanis .

Otherwise, culture of maintaing public gardens is something I'm personally grateful to the Mughals for.

Not to mention that at least until Jahangir they were relatively tolerant of the Hindu majority and even of other

The better emperors among them also did have a fair sense of taxation and didn't exploit the peasantry.

Akbar went out of his way to forge alliances with many Hindu kingdoms.

Trade and commerce did flourish.


But are modern Muslims really proud of Babur, the Mughal patriarch who was more interested in his male lover than his wife?

Are they proud of Akbar who practically renounced Islam and didn't care enough about the clergy to even punish blasphemy and out them in their place by starting his own religion ?

Are they proud of Jahangir who was a drunkard and , according to the accounts of Jesuit missionaries , was practically a Catholic and his only reason to remain Muslim was because it allowed to him maintain many wives and consorts?


Seems like a strange position to take.

 

[JaDed]

Are you not a secular yourself? I thought you were an atheist.

You said before you don't believe in religion. You now say you follow dharmic religion. Make up your mind.

I never said i was atheist.. I respect atheists.
But i realise i’ve gotten closer to my Dharmic identity.

 

[sweep_shot]

Muslims falsely take pride in the Mughal empire when they were, at best , heterodox Muslims if not completely irreligious.

Aurangzeb was probably the only orthodox Muslim amongst them and perhaps that's why he is clearly revered the most among Pakistanis .

Otherwise, culture of maintaing public gardens is something I'm personally grateful to the Mughals for.

Not to mention that at least until Jahangir they were relatively tolerant of the Hindu majority and even of other

The better emperors among them also did have a fair sense of taxation and didn't exploit the peasantry.

Akbar went out of his way to forge alliances with many Hindu kingdoms.

Trade and commerce did flourish.


But are modern Muslims really proud of Babur, the Mughal patriarch who was more interested in his male lover than his wife?

Are they proud of Akbar who practically renounced Islam and didn't care enough about the clergy to even punish blasphemy and out them in their place by starting his own religion ?

Are they proud of Jahangir who was a drunkard and , according to the accounts of Jesuit missionaries , was practically a Catholic and his only reason to remain Muslim was because it allowed to him maintain many wives and consorts?


Seems like a strange position to take.

Impact of Mughal Empire as a whole. Not what any individual Mughal leader did.

There were some bad apples definitely.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Mughal Empire as a whole. Not what any individual Mughal leader did.

There were some bad apples definitely.

Those were the main Mughal emperors

 

[sweep_shot]

Those were the main Mughal emperors

If you check the first post, you can see the positive contributions.

 

[uppercut]

@sweep_shot .... I ask this because I am pretty certain that you will quietly walk away from this thread when some very uncomfortable and jarring facts posted here and some very difficult questions raised for you to answer.


Let me know.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ordered it from Amazon a couple of days ago. The one translated by Jr. Thackston, W.M. Not because I admire those barbaric looters but because I want to know history in minute details. I have read extensively about the Nazis, the Holocaust, etc as well. Doesn't mean I admire them. Like everyone else, I consider them animals in human bodies.

You should try reading up on Portuguese rule in India as well, some really horrific stuff went on in the name of Christianity.

 

[sweep_shot]

@sweep_shot .... I ask this because I am pretty certain that you will quietly walk away from this thread when some very uncomfortable and jarring facts posted here and some very difficult questions raised for you to answer.

It depends on what you ask. If you ask unreasonable and biased questions, I may avoid those questions.

The purpose of this thread is to list the positive contributions of the Mughals. I have done that on first post with references. This thread is not about their alleged bad activities (there are other threads for that).

 

[sweep_shot]

You should try reading up on Portuguese rule in India as well, some really horrific stuff went on in the name of Christianity.

Correct.

Another example would be Spanish Empire in Peru and other South American places. They have done horrible things there.

Crusaders killed both Muslims and Jews during first Crusade.

Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Spanish colonization of the Americas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

First Crusade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Vast majority of the empires during those periods had cutthroat approaches. So, if someone compare Mughals to "Nazis", they should call Spanish Empire, Portuguese Empire, British Empire, Crusaders etc. Nazis too.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You should try reading up on Portuguese rule in India as well, some really horrific stuff went on in the name of Christianity.

And Christians in India don't consider Portuguese as some kind of heroes.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

And Christians in India don't consider Portuguese as some kind of heroes.

Whether they are considered as heroes or not doesn't impact the historical discussion of their empire.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Well said.

If they didn't believe in Islam after converting, they could've converted back to paganism/Hinduism later on. But, that didn't happen. It shows conversions were genuine.

Even to this day, many people are converting to Islam worldwide; nobody is forcing them. Islam is spreading in South America, for example.

It seems like some of these Indians are brainwashed by BJP's textbooks.

They converted under the fear of torture. If they renounced Islam, it would have meant death.

BJP textbooks?

Go read a few books like Babarnama and Jahangirnama. If you want more read Masir e Alamgiri.

How muslim invaders forced their religion on non Muslims is a story that the Spanish and the Indian non Muslims tell. Because both resisted the conversion and survived to tell the tale.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I never said i was atheist.. I respect atheists.
But i realise i’ve gotten closer to my Dharmic identity.

What is Dharmic identidy?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Whether they are considered as heroes or not doesn't impact the historical discussion of their empire.

They hardly had an empire. They had few small areas like Goa. That's all.

Ofcourse it matters. Unlike converted Muslims who consider tyrannical Invaders as as heroes, Christians don't consider invaders as their heroes.

 

[Mockingbird]

No country will glorify invaders and Mughals would always be that for us, irrespective of whatever they achieved in terms of art and architecture and economy. Nothing changes the fact that they imposed taxes on our ancestors for praying to our own gods, they forcibly converted people, women had to perform sati because of fear of being added to their harems.

And it’s a misnomer that Mughals united people - India had extended way up to Afghanistan under the Guptas and Maury’s. The Cholas had extended their influence in the South east Asia- the reason we saw Hinduism in that region (Angkor wat in Cambodia is a testimony to this).

 

[DeadlyVenom]

They hardly had an empire. They had few small areas like Goa. That's all.

Ofcourse it matters. Unlike converted Muslims who consider tyrannical Invaders as as heroes, Christians don't consider invaders as their heroes.

Are historical alleged crimes or achievements amplified or downplayed depending on the reactions of people today?

Everyone everywhere converted to something or the error along their ancestorsal line. Such is life, no need to be so bitter about it.

The history of the subcontinent is complex. It is quite likely that if you were transported back in time to another area of the subcontinent you would be considered an outsider and put to death.

You yourself have described many hindu kingdoms and armies. Who were they fighting against before Islam arrived?