Now Ahmedabad hit with blasts - GEO Headlines

[MIG]

Apparently minor blasts but could be a ploy by the state to "keep it down" - is this a country wide campaign or some Mafia barons having it out with each other - or is this the dreaded Taliban opening up a new front ?

Chances are that Poodlezai and Indian FO will try and make this into an ISI issue - lets wait and see.

In the meantime, hopefully there is no loss of life.

 

[purplehaze]

On a second thought, I am thankful to bombers that they didn't put them in crowded place.

So easy is it to plant a bomb in this country....

 

[Mohsin]

Its defo not the Taliban, what would they get out of planting small devices in Indian cities?

 

[MIG]

Have to admit, If I was ISI, this would be the perfect nuisance value type action but hopefully, we have moved away from such nonsense.

Having said that - bomb blasts in Pakistan very soon after the attack on Indian embassy in Kabul points to Indian involvement as well.

 

[Mohsin]

Have to admit, If I was ISI, this would be the perfect nuisance value type action but hopefully, we have moved away from such nonsense.

Having said that - bomb blasts in Pakistan very soon after the attack on Indian embassy in Kabul points to Indian involvement as well.

Everyone knows the Indians have been involved in the bomb blasts in Pakistan (long before Kabul!)
Who do you think is providing the funding to insurgents in NWFP? Why do you think the Indian's were so desperate to establish embassies in Jalaabad (they want to bring in troops in Jalalabad now!)

 

[rahulrulezz]

lol... Karzai just said to World Media that Fight for terrorists and terrorism should not be in Afghanistan but Pakistan.. I am surprized about the fact that this comment of his was actually the headline in BBC news yesterday

 

[MarathaPride]

When we have a piece of s**t secular government that scraps POTA and other anti-atankvadi measures simply to pander to the minorities....then this is the end result.

I am hoping India gets a strong nationalist (hopefully a better version of the BJP) government in the upcoming elections.

 

[Inswinger]

When we have a piece of s**t secular government that scraps POTA and other anti-atankvadi measures simply to pander to the minorities....then this is the end result.

I am hoping India gets a strong nationalist (hopefully a better version of the BJP) government in the upcoming elections.

Are you blaming the muslims in India without any proof?

 

[MarathaPride]

Are you blaming the muslims in India without any proof?

POTA = Prevention of Terrorism Act.

The logic: proactively (instead of reactively..like now) search for atankvadis/jihadis and flush them out before they commit any atrocities.

Which is the community affected? The Muslim community.

99% of this community is fine. The 1% tarnish the rest, and it is this 1% that should be actively monitored. Unfortunately, India's Muslim politicians made a big fuss about POTA.

What happened next? After BJP was voted out and the Secular Congress voted in, they scrap the POTA to pander to the Muslims.

The result? Ever since the BJP left office, there have 8 Major blasts in my country. Thats right my friend, 8 blasts..with the most horrific of them happening in Mumbai (my city) where over 200 lost their lives.

It is clear that a strong BJP/Sena/Nationalist govt needs to come in to get my country in order.

I am blaming no one, but I have clarified my position. Hopefully your question has been answered.

 

[hussain_0216]

This could have been carried out by anyone, India had more terrorist incidents then Iraq and Afghanistan last year (or something along those lines, i forget where i read the article)

India has a major Maoist problem which has increased over recent years, separatist movements in Assam, Punjab, Kashmir etc



If POTA discriminates against the muslim community of india, then it is the responsibility of all muslims across the world to help and inform the muslims of india of how india/the hindians are discriminating against them and how they should identify with the Ummah and Pakistan & and not India.



These bombs could have been planted from anyone from any of the insurgencies in India OR the Maoists who are turning increasingly violent...


India isnt one nation its made up of millions of different people with different backgrounds, faiths, beleifs & even cultures, the more the hindians pressure other people the more there going to get screwed.

 

[Indiagem]

This could have been carried out by anyone, India had more terrorist incidents then Iraq and Afghanistan last year (or something along those lines, i forget where i read the article)

India has a major Maoist problem which has increased over recent years, separatist movements in Assam, Punjab, Kashmir etc



If POTA discriminates against the muslim community of india, then it is the responsibility of all muslims across the world to help and inform the muslims of india of how india/the hindians are discriminating against them and how they should identify with the Ummah and Pakistan & and not India.


These bombs could have been planted from anyone from any of the insurgencies in India OR the Maoists who are turning increasingly violent...


India isnt one nation its made up of millions of different people with different backgrounds, faiths, beleifs & even cultures, the more the hindians pressure other people the more there going to get screwed.

Those who wants to identify with Pakistan are free to pack up everything and go to Pakistan. No one is preventing them from not leaving.

But as long as they are part of India, all citizens will obey the rule of the land.

If anyone of any religion is caught related to the bombs explosions then they should be taught a good lesson.

I am not a BJP supporter. I am a congres supporter. I respectfully disagree with Marathapride when he says the BJP or Shiv sena will provide good government.

I think all politicians are not born corrupt, they just are made corrupt by the system. The lust of power corrupts them.

 

[jattafridi]

india under attack whos behind any clue

 

[W63L35]

india under attack whos behind any clue

Do we even know who is behind attacks in Pak? It has been months and nobody has figured that out yet..... how can anybody know who is behind attacks in India?

 

[pal]

A group calling itself the 'Indian Mujahedeen' has claimed responsibility for the attack, according to CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/26/india.blasts/index.html

 

[W63L35]

A group calling itself the 'Indian Mujahedeen' has claimed responsibility for the attack, according to CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/26/india.blasts/index.html

I find it highly strange that......... in Pakistan there must have been 100s (if not thousands) of bomb attacks but never heard ANYBODY claiming responsibilties of those attacks............ in India, you have TWO major attacks (Jaipur and Ahmedabad)..... and RIGHT away, soembody claims the responsibility???

 

[Saj]

At least 29 people have been killed and more than 100 wounded after a series of explosions struck the western Indian city of Ahmedabad, officials have said.

More than a dozen blasts to have hit residential areas, crowded markets, a train station and a bus in Gujarat state's commercial capital.

It is thought the explosions were caused by crudely-made devices hidden in boxes and on bicycles.

On Friday a series of similar blasts hit the southern city of Bangalore.

The Ahmedabad explosions came in two waves - the first occurring over a 20-minute period from about 1830 (1300 GMT).

There was another series of blasts shortly after.

TV stations broadcast images of a bus with its side blown up, shattered windows and the roof half-destroyed.

Footage also showed the body of a man lying motionless on the ground next to the bus, covered in blood.

The BBC's Damian Grammaticas, in India, says the explosions appear to have been a planned and highly co-ordinated attack.


Some of the bombs in the second wave targeted the hospitals where the injured were being taken, he adds.

"We saw a blue bag near the trauma centre, and before we could react we saw it explode in a shine of blinding light, and some 40 people were hit by flying shrapnel," doctor Vipul Patil, at the Dhanwantari Hospital, told AFP news agency.

Ahmedabad is an ethnically diverse city which has suffered from political instability in the past.

Riots broke out there in 2002 between Hindus and Muslims.

Reports suggested many of Saturday's blasts were in the city's crowded old quarter - a religiously-mixed area.

Analysts believe the attack may be linked to the Bangalore bombs and could be designed to whip up trouble between religious communities.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has appealed for people to remain calm.

India has been hit by several waves of bombings in recent years. Targets have ranged from mosques and Hindu temples to trains and courthouses.

29 killed and more than 100 injured - more disruption in South Asia.

 

[MarathaPride]

This could have been carried out by anyone, India had more terrorist incidents then Iraq and Afghanistan last year (or something along those lines, i forget where i read the article)

The "Indian Mujahideen" carried out these attacks. You tell me if that is Maoist or Muslim.

India has a major Maoist problem which has increased over recent years, separatist movements in Assam, Punjab, Kashmir etc

Punjab seperatist movements have all but died down. To be fair, the Khalistani movement is still strong in the UK/US...but now they are pushing more for reparations (which I agree with) than a seperate entity called Khalistan. I am not too sure how Assam is faring, but there have thankfully been no grave incidents for some time now.

If POTA discriminates against the muslim community of india, then it is the responsibility of all muslims across the world to help and inform the muslims of india of how india/the hindians are discriminating against them and how they should identify with the Ummah and Pakistan & and not India.

The absurdity of some of your statements is laughable. If proactively flushing out terrorists (who target both Hindus and Muslims btw) is termed discrimination against the Muslim community, then so be it.

India isnt one nation its made up of millions of different people with different backgrounds, faiths, beleifs & even cultures, the more the hindians pressure other people the more there going to get screwed.

What idealogy will lead India to progress and prosperity - a Secular Republic or a Hindu State? I used to think the former and it becoming increasingly clear that I was wrong. To this question, I would like to read what some Secular Pakistanis and the Indians on PP think.

 

[Indiagem]

What idealogy will lead India to progress and prosperity - a Secular Republic or a Hindu State? I used to think the former and it becoming increasingly clear that I was wrong. To this question, I would like to read what some Secular Pakistanis and the Indians on PP think.

I think a secular state is best for India.

But we have to
1) Kill all the politicians and terrorists in encounters.
2) Implement TADA and POTA.

 

[pal]

I am not too sure how Assam is faring, but there have thankfully been no grave incidents for some time now.

There haven't been too many reports from the North East recently, but the attacks there were some of the most serious and deadly for years, but not much coverage was given to (and is still given to) the Christian terrorist movements there, for whatever reason.

 

[MarathaPride]

There haven't been too many reports from the North East recently, but the attacks there were some of the most serious and deadly for years, but not much coverage was given to (and is still given to) the Christian terrorist movements there, for whatever reason.

Was that Assam or Nagaland? I believe the Assam problem was caused by ULFA with ISI/B'deshi backing, and the other problem you have mentioned is in Nagaland.

 

[Hash]

Very sad news.

RIP to all those who lost their lives and may all terrorists worldwide be crushed in the most humiliating way.

 

[pal]

Was that Assam or Nagaland? I believe the Assam problem was caused by ULFA with ISI/B'deshi backing, and the other problem you have mentioned is in Nagaland.

I'm pretty sure it's Nagaland and parts of Tripura, mainly organizations like the NLFT.

 

[Saj]

Punjab seperatist movements have all but died down. To be fair, the Khalistani movement is still strong in the UK/US...but now they are pushing more for reparations (which I agree with) than a seperate entity called Khalistan. I am not too sure how Assam is faring, but there have thankfully been no grave incidents for some time now.

I heard that Khalistan's borders according to the movement included Lahore ? Is that true?

 

[MarathaPride]

I think a secular state is best for India.

But we have to
1) Kill all the politicians and terrorists in encounters.
2) Implement TADA and POTA.

If only we could do 1)

On a serious note, however, India has been and will always remain a country with a singularly Hindu ethos. Muslims, ofcourse, are free to practice their religion as are the Christians..but the soul of India, in my opinion, is Sanatan Dharma.

While we may differ in idealogy, I am glad that you agree that those who cant abide by our laws should leave our nation.

 

[hussain_0216]

Are you people not aware of the daily Maoist attacks and movements in your country.... police stations, villages, government buildings are regulariliy atackd by the maoists and there influence and aggression is growing.

Assam has had an ongoing problem groups who wish to gain freedom from India and there have been recent attacks......

The Khalistan movement isnt dead and buried yet, just suppressed, the same with Kashmir (recent hindoo attempts to take kashmiri land met with massive protests)

India isn't all hindian, there is your problem, Hindoo nationalists will discriminate against all others, so it is intolerable for all others to accept hindoo nationalists...

And if the Muslim community is discriminated against in india, then the Muslim community in India must understand where its loyalties are and must be made to understand that the hindoo's who are discriminating against them are there enemies...

If that is the case then the Muslim of india must demand a independent muslim state be created out of india which should be the home of indian muslims where they will not face discrimination from the hindians.

 

[MarathaPride]

I heard that Khalistan's borders according to the movement included Lahore ? Is that true?

Yes and No. The regular Khalistanis (who are the majority) wanted Indian Punjab, while the very very extreme ones wanted a major chunk of Pakistani Punjab (along with our Punjab).

 

[Indiagem]

If that is the case then the Muslim of india must demand a independent muslim state be created out of india which should be the home of indian muslims where they will not face discrimination from the hindians.

This will never happen. This will happen just in the dreams. Pack your bags and leave if you dont like India. Live by Indian laws or get out of the country. Indians need to live in peace. We dont want jihadis and terrorist spreading terror.

Let these idiots go to proper indian school and take proper jobs.

It is sad but couple of muslim indian doctors from Bangalore gave a bad name to educated muslims in India.

 

[hussain_0216]

Its not about obeying laws, its about being discriminated against by a hindoo's, if indian muslims in there own homeland cant practice there religion and live there lives without being harassed and discriminated against by Hindians then action must be taken.

A movement should be called for to protect the rights of the muslims of india.

Indian musims should begin a party whose aims is to protect the rights of Indian muslims (e.g they can call it the Islamic League), and its focus should be the Partition of india on religious lines with a view to forming a land indian muslims can call home where they would be free from discrimination from Hindians.


I suggest this new land be called Muslimistan or Islamistan

 

[MarathaPride]

Are you people not aware of the daily Maoist attacks and movements in your country.... police stations, villages, government buildings are regulariliy atackd by the maoists and there influence and aggression is growing.

Assam has had an ongoing problem groups who wish to gain freedom from India and there have been recent attacks......

The Khalistan movement isnt dead and buried yet, just suppressed, the same with Kashmir (recent hindoo attempts to take kashmiri land met with massive protests)

1) Once again, Maoists, Khalistanis, ULFA (in Assam) will be a menace in only those areas where they have a strong presence. In terms of attacks, Khalistanis have very rarely (in fact never) gone beyond Punjab and Delhi, and the same applies to every other such terrorist outfits.

2) As for the Kashmiri thing - All the poor Hindu pilgrims wanted was a barren piece of forest land to construct thatchments and huts so that they could rest on their way to the Amarnath caves. Yet, Hindus couldn't even get that (Indiagem bhai....this is what secularism gets us). Now, it is time that we be just as aggressive - either give Hindus that land or face severe retaliation.

India isn't all hindian, there is your problem, Hindoo nationalists will discriminate against all others, so it is intolerable for all others to accept hindoo nationalists...

The BJP has several top muslim politicians..Mukhtar Naqvi (a great man in my opinion) and Shahnawaz Hussain are two that immediately come to mind. In a Hindu nation, many (if not all) of the demands of BJP/Sena etc. will be implemented, and the sickness of secularism will be removed once and for all. In such a scenario, the relations between Muslims and Hindus will be excellent (this topic deserves a thread in itself btw).

And if the Muslim community is discriminated against in india, then the Muslim community in India must understand where its loyalties are and must be made to understand that the hindoo's who are discriminating against them are there enemies...

If that is the case then the Muslim of india must demand a independent muslim state be created out of india which should be the home of indian muslims where they will not face discrimination from the hindians.

There already exists an independant muslim state for Indian Muslims who wish to leave - its called Pakistan.

 

[Dhonian]

Its not about obeying laws, its about being discriminated against by a hindoo's, if indian muslims in there own homeland cant practice there religion and live there lives without being harassed and discriminated against by Hindians then action must be taken.

A movement should be called for to protect the rights of the muslims of india.

Indian musims should begin a party whose aims is to protect the rights of Indian muslims (e.g they can call it the Islamic League), and its focus should be the Partition of india on religious lines with a view to forming a land indian muslims can call home where they would be free from discrimination from Hindians.


I suggest this new land be called Muslimistan or Islamistan

Wasnt that the point of Pakistan?

 

[Islamabadi]

“India backing Baloch insurgency”

Nirupama Subramanian
Evidence will be made available soon: Islamabad
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has accused India of backing a Baloch nationalist leader linked to a militant group in Balochistan province.

Rahman Malik, a confidante of Pakistan people’s Party co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari who functions as Interior Minister, told Aaj television channel that India was supporting Bramdagh Bugti, a Baloch nationalist leader, in “his terrorist activities”, and that the evidence for this would soon be available.

Mr. Bugti is a grandson of the late Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti, who was killed by security forces in 2006. He recently announced the formation of the Balochistan Republican Party, and said it would support the Balochistan Liberation Army, a shadowy militant group that is blamed for and has also taken responsibility for several attacks in an ongoing low-level insurgency in the province.

Earlier this week, he was quoted saying he would accept assistance from India, Afghanistan or Iran to defend the Baloch nationalist cause.

Mr. Malik also repeated the accusation that Indian consulates in Afghanistan on its borders with Pakistan were assisting the insurgency in Balochistan.

Mr. Malik’s accusation came as Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani reached out to New Delhi amid a downturn in bilateral ties following the attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul, blamed by the Indian government on the ISI.

In a move apparently aimed at cooling down temperatures after India’s warning of a “strain” in ties, Mr. Gilani telephoned Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Thursday to congratulate him on winning the vote of confidence earlier this week.

The leaders talked about the peace process, which Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon said earlier this week was “under strain”, with India in possession of evidence to show that “elements” in Pakistan were behind the Kabul bombing. Earlier, National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan directly blamed the ISI for the attack.

According to a statement from the Prime Minister’s Office here, Mr. Gilani told Dr. Singh that Pakistan attaches “immense importance” to relations with India, and said the “unrest in the region” required “more co-operation” to combat terrorism and extremism as both countries were victims of the menace.

Mr. Gilani said a stable Afghanistan was in the safe interest of all countries of the region.He was looking forward to meeting Dr. Singh in Colombo at the SAARC summit, Mr. Gilani said, and also flagged the importance of a meeting of the Foreign Ministers there.

According to the statement, Dr. Singh assured Mr. Gilani that “all outstanding issues including the issue of Kashmir between India and Pakistan will be resolved amicably”.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I would not be surprised at all, if ISI was involved in this ...This might be a response to india's involvement in Balouchistan

 

[MarathaPride]

Its not about obeying laws, its about being discriminated against by a hindoo's, if indian muslims in there own homeland cant practice there religion and live there lives without being harassed and discriminated against by Hindians then action must be taken.

A movement should be called for to protect the rights of the muslims of india.

Indian musims should begin a party whose aims is to protect the rights of Indian muslims (e.g they can call it the Islamic League), and its focus should be the Partition of india on religious lines with a view to forming a land indian muslims can call home where they would be free from discrimination from Hindians.


I suggest this new land be called Muslimistan or Islamistan

Sorry bro..partition already happened. Indian Muslims who dont like it here can gladly leave to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, B'Desh, Iran, Turkey, Yemen wherever. The BJP/Sena will gladly pay for their one-way ticket

Indian Muslims who do like it here are INDIANS, and together we shall work for a prosperous India.

 

[pal]

In reply to hussain_0216

I find your sweeping generalizations of Hindus (and your use of the word 'Hindoo') to be highly offensive. I went to school with Muslims. I played cricket and football with Muslims. I lived next to Muslims. Religion meant nothing to our friendships. Most Hindus and Muslims in India live together in peace and fraternal harmony. But, yes, there are extremists like you in both Hindu and Muslim communities and they're doing all they can to destroy the fabric of our nation. The test for all Indians is to make sure they don't fall victim to the mentalities of people like you and stand together. I will not stand for any attempts by Hindus or anyone else to generalize the sentiments of the Muslim community. They will not be stained by the actions of these clowns. I've seen a few Hindutva-types try to plant seeds of doubt among the general population about the patriotism about our Muslim brothers, but all they need to do is look at the Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and Christians fighting and bleeding to protect our nation on the borders.

And, it is interesting that you are harping about how Indian muslims should separate, but you are not talking about letting them into Pakistan.

 

[Indiagem]

Its not about obeying laws, its about being discriminated against by a hindoo's, if indian muslims in there own homeland cant practice there religion and live there lives without being harassed and discriminated against by Hindians then action must be taken.

A movement should be called for to protect the rights of the muslims of india.

Indian musims should begin a party whose aims is to protect the rights of Indian muslims (e.g they can call it the Islamic League), and its focus should be the Partition of india on religious lines with a view to forming a land indian muslims can call home where they would be free from discrimination from Hindians.


I suggest this new land be called Muslimistan or Islamistan

Well they can form party and fight election. They will win few seats...which is fine. Now the lure of these few seats by other parties to form government is giving them importance.

The day they ask for seperate state then they will be taught a lesson. Why cant they just get out of India if they feel discriminated against. I know many european countries are giving asylums for discriminated people. Maybe they can try their luck there.

Maybe you can lead a organisation trying to give them asylum in UK or other european countries.

Another partition will only happen in the dreams. As a congress supporter which is vilified as a minorites panderer, if these are my thoughts, then just think what would be the thoughts of BJP or RSS supporters.

 

[Indiagem]

Hussein, start a movement and work for the inclusion adn integration of Indian muslims into Pakistan.

I am glad you are outside of India...take other similar thinking muslims also away from India.

 

[MarathaPride]

I find your sweeping generalizations of Hindus (and your use of the word 'Hindoo') to be highly offensive. I went to school with Muslims. I played cricket and football with Muslims. I lived next to Muslims. Religion meant nothing to our friendships. Most Hindus and Muslims in India live together in peace and fraternal harmony. But, yes, there are extremists like you in both Hindu and Muslim communities and they're doing all they can to destroy the fabric of our nation. The test for all Indians is to make sure they don't fall victim to the mentalities of people like you and stand together. I will not stand for any attempts by Hindus or anyone else to generalize the sentiments of the Muslim community. They will not be stained by the actions of these clowns. I've seen a few Hindutva-types try to plant seeds of doubt among the general population about the patriotism about our Muslim brothers, but all they need to do is look at the Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and Christians fighting and bleeding to protect our nation on the borders.

And, it is interesting that you are harping about how Indian muslims should separate, but you are not talking about letting them into Pakistan.

I think we just should debate Hussain on his points. Its best to ignore his juvenile vocabulary. Cheers.

BTW, there was one Muslim martyr who received the Param Vir Chakra (India's highest military honor for those who dont know) in the 1965 war for his amazing courage and desh bhakti. I forget his name..would you happen to know?

 

[Mercenary]

Had the original partition been a fairer one then perhaps we wouldnt have seen these problems today. India got an unfair and unrepresentatively large portion whilst Pakistan was much smaller than it should have been.

A real Hindu/Muslim split would have meant there wouldnt be a large enough Muslim minority in India today for it to be perceived as a threat from Hindu nationalists.

Too many Muslims were left in India and the greed of Indian politicians during partition left them with too large a minority Muslim population for them to be able to handle or to be able to live with without major friction.

 

[MarathaPride]

Merc Bhai.

Go easy on the post deletions bro

Apologies from my side for making your mod duties a bit more challenging today.

 

[Mercenary]

Can everybody relax here. hussain is cooling his heels. Derogatory terms to other posters religion or nationality are not tolerated on PP

 

[MarathaPride]

Second that. I am just really pissed off today.

 

[Islamabadi]

well innocent people will keep paying the price for the dirty work of intelligence agencies... i.e raw, cia, ISI e.t.c

 

[MIG]

My condolences to all our Indian friends over this tragedy - when I first saw the news item, it didnt look that bad, hence some of my original posts.

RIP to all who perished - rest assured that OoperWalla will mete out his justice in this or the next world - at a time of HIS choosing.

 

[W63L35]

Second that. I am just really pissed off today.

I am sure it will help you understand how WE feel whose families are in harms way back home and going through this pain way more often that you guys are!

 

[MarathaPride]

I am sure it will help you understand how WE feel whose families are in harms way back home and going through this pain way more often that you guys are!

I didn't quite "get" the tone of this post.

Are you offering your condolences/empathy? Or are you turning such a tragedy into a pi$$ing contest (which I think you are)?


Apologies in advance if I have misinterpreted your post.

 

[PlanetPakistan]

Another sad sad day and condolence to the families of the victims!


These attacks are as cowardly as they get!

 

[W63L35]

I didn't quite "get" the tone of this post.

Are you offering your condolences/empathy? Or are you turning such a tragedy into a pi$$ing contest (which I think you are)?


Apologies in advance if I have misinterpreted your post.

See post# 6 above.

and see post # 30 in this thread.
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=24275

 

[Nakhuda]

We don't want or need the Muslim's of India and neither do we have the room to put up with them,they made their choice in 1947 so let them standby it whatever may come.Their loyalty should be towards India just like the Hindu's of Pakistan who are also very patriotic.

RAW is involved in internal Pakistani affairs and the ISI in Indian ones so live with it.Either both should stop such activity or quit pointing the fingure at one another.Unless a great revolution occurs on both sides of the border such bomb blasts will continue taking the lives of innocents and we'll never know whose responsible.

 

[moumotta]

Well they can form party and fight election. They will win few seats...which is fine. Now the lure of these few seats by other parties to form government is giving them importance.

There already are some muslim based parties like Indian Union Muslim League and JI Hind with some seats in the indian parliament. I don't think they have done anything for the general upliftment of the muslim population.

 

[Plasma]

Another sad sad day and condolence to the families of the victims!


These attacks are as cowardly as they get!

But i have to say they are very incompetent. Not that i want them to be successful, nor should anyone else, but im just thinking. News is that there were 12 blasts, and 5 people have been reported dead. Either the numbers which we are seeing are very very incorrect or these blasts were more to scare then to take lives.

 

[Mercenary]

These attacks are very suspicious.

Lots of low intensity blasts with prior warnings (so I've read) and minimal loss of life (although even one person dead should never be considered minimal) or low damage to property.

Not the modus operandi of the average 'supposed' Muslim terrorists in any way, shape or form.

A couple of my Indian friends have said that back home in India there is talk of these bombs being politically motivated. Some are saying the only people who are benefitting from these blasts are the nationalist political parties and that it wouldn't be the first or last time such tactics have been used. Also that all communal violence in Pakistan/India is politically motivated at some level or the other.

Any other PPers hearing similar stuff?

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

POTA = Prevention of Terrorism Act.

The logic: proactively (instead of reactively..like now) search for atankvadis/jihadis and flush them out before they commit any atrocities.

Which is the community affected? The Muslim community.

99% of this community is fine. The 1% tarnish the rest, and it is this 1% that should be actively monitored. Unfortunately, India's Muslim politicians made a big fuss about POTA.

What happened next? After BJP was voted out and the Secular Congress voted in, they scrap the POTA to pander to the Muslims.

The result? Ever since the BJP left office, there have 8 Major blasts in my country. Thats right my friend, 8 blasts..with the most horrific of them happening in Mumbai (my city) where over 200 lost their lives.




It is clear that a strong BJP/Sena/Nationalist govt needs to come in to get my country in order.

I am blaming no one, but I have clarified my position. Hopefully your question has been answered.

or this could have been bjp's ploy to gain sympathy of hindu voters!!remember isnt the bjp that will benefit the most with these blasts ,, and Muslims in india have the most to lose!

 

[moumotta]

or this could have been bjp's ploy to gain sympathy of hindu voters!!remember isnt the bjp that will benefit the most with these blasts ,, and Muslims in india have the most to lose!

You assuming that terrorists rationale and logic work in terms of short term community gains and losses as understood by normal minds.

 

[MarathaPride]

or this could have been bjp's ploy to gain sympathy of hindu voters!!remember isnt the bjp that will benefit the most with these blasts ,, and Muslims in india have the most to lose!

1. BJP is on the up and up and they dont have to do much to attract Hindu votes. Congress and its idiotic psuedo-secular, anti-Hindu, minority-first policies have ensured that Hindus are firmly in BJP's corner. In fact, since the attacks have occurred in states with a BJP govt, it is the BJP that has the most to loose.

2. Mein yeh naahi maanta ki sirf votes ke liye koi party aise ghiloyne harkate kar sakti hai (feel like speaking in Hindi today). Hum log itne bhi niche nahi gire hai.

3. "Indian Mujahideen" which seems to be an outfit of SIMI has already claimed responsibility.

 

[Islamabadi]

1. BJP is on the up and up and they dont have to do much to attract Hindu votes. Congress and its idiotic psuedo-secular, anti-Hindu, minority-first policies have ensured that Hindus are firmly in BJP's corner. In fact, since the attacks have occurred in states with a BJP govt, it is the BJP that has the most to loose.

2. Mein yeh naahi maanta ki sirf votes ke liye koi party aise ghiloyne harkate kar sakti hai (feel like speaking in Hindi today). Hum log itne bhi niche nahi gire hai.

3. "Indian Mujahideen" which seems to be an outfit of SIMI has already claimed responsibility.

Indian television stations reported that they had received a statement on Saturday from a group that called itself “Indian Mujahedeen” that warned of attacks. There was no way to know whether the statement was authentic or who was behind the group, which had claimed responsibility for serial blasts in Jaipur, in western India, two months ago.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

1. BJP is on the up and up and they dont have to do much to attract Hindu votes. Congress and its idiotic psuedo-secular, anti-Hindu, minority-first policies have ensured that Hindus are firmly in BJP's corner. In fact, since the attacks have occurred in states with a BJP govt, it is the BJP that has the most to loose.

2. Mein yeh naahi maanta ki sirf votes ke liye koi party aise ghiloyne harkate kar sakti hai (feel like speaking in Hindi today). Hum log itne bhi niche nahi gire hai.

3. "Indian Mujahideen" which seems to be an outfit of SIMI has already claimed responsibility.

this is exactly how the bjp and rss wants you to react!.chill out man. baat sarri yeh hai keh koi bhi kaam faida aur nuqsaan dekh ker hi kya jaataa hai, aur in blasts ka sabse zyada faida bjp ko hi hoona hai , aur nuqsaan muslims ko

 

[MarathaPride]

Indian television stations reported that they had received a statement on Saturday from a group that called itself “Indian Mujahedeen” that warned of attacks. There was no way to know whether the statement was authentic or who was behind the group, which had claimed responsibility for serial blasts in Jaipur, in western India, two months ago.

C'mon yaar..you can say whatever you want abt the Indian media when it comes to sensationalizing political/bollywood/cricket news stories (and I'll prbly agree).

But in such grave matters, I trust the Indian media and the intelligence/political establishment to do the right thing and provide the viewers with accurate information.

As of now, all fingers point to SIMI operatives as the main culprits.

 

[Islamabadi]

C'mon yaar..you can say whatever you want abt the Indian media when it comes to sensationalizing political/bollywood/cricket news stories (and I'll prbly agree).

But in such grave matters, I trust the Indian media and the intelligence/political establishment to do the right thing and provide the viewers with accurate information.

As of now, all fingers point to SIMI operatives as the main culprits.

Yaar its not me i just quoted that from NY Times..I don't trust media at all...

 

[nikred]

this is exactly how the bjp and rss wants you to react!.chill out man. baat sarri yeh hai keh koi bhi kaam faida aur nuqsaan dekh ker hi kya jaataa hai, aur in blasts ka sabse zyada faida bjp ko hi hoona hai , aur nuqsaan muslims ko

So who do you think is the brainchild behind the Mecca Masjid bomb blasts in Hyderabad? Who is to gain from that?

 

[Islamabadi]

So who do you think is the brainchild behind the Mecca Masjid bomb blasts in Hyderabad? Who is to gain from that?

its so funny, when that happened india also blamed that on muslims...That was such a joke...

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

So who do you think is the brainchild behind the Mecca Masjid bomb blasts in Hyderabad? Who is to gain from that?

the fundamentalist will, but remember that mulims in india are a minority who are watched suspiciously after any such incident happens, muslims of india wont get nothing out of a bomb blast at mecca masjid because of the fact there there no votes to gain since they are a small portion of the population

 

[MarathaPride]

this is exactly how the bjp and rss wants you to react!.chill out man. baat sarri yeh hai keh koi bhi kaam faida aur nuqsaan dekh ker hi kya jaataa hai, aur in blasts ka sabse zyada faida bjp ko hi hoona hai , aur nuqsaan muslims ko

Ab kaise samjhaoon tujhe mere bhai..

Read today's article on rediff.com. Congress has already started blaming the BJP for "failing to curb terrorism within their state" whilst fully knowing that anti-terrorism measures are the job of the central government. They are clearly trying to paint the BJP in a poor light. Also, as mentioned in the above post, all fingers are now pointing to SIMI operatives and "Indian Mujahideen" was a front for SIMI operatives. Their agenda is clear - completely disrupt the lives of those who voted in the BJP sarkar.

Now, if you still believe that BJP somehow orchestrated this, then I would rather not discuss this with you.

Aur rahi baat react karne ki...to jo Amarnath mein recently hua...usse mujhe ye saaf paata chalta hai ki India mein secularism ki mout ho gayi hai. At this point, I would much prefer a BJP/VHP/Sena/any Hindutva nationalist sarkar than these damned congressis, their firang leader, and our chooha Prime Minister. This problem has to be solved once and for all.

 

[DHONI183]

Very sad .......

Rest in peace.....

 

[Mohsin]

What’s with the locations of the bombs?

I mean firstly, Jaipur- known for its tourism and diversity
Secondly, Bangalore- IT hub
Now Ahmadabad- capital of Gujarat, upcoming place to invest and really 'happening' place

Trying to really destabilise India? I mean some are saying that its cant be the Indian Mujahedeen, its too well organised etc etc...

 

[Nakhuda]

It could be some right wing Hindu group pretending to be Muslim with the aim of increasing tension within the already sensitive Gujarat state.Its all politics but i don't see how anyone can stop such attacks.Practically speaking its just not possible to do so.

 

[Islamabadi]

Police raided the home of an American citizen in Mumbai, India's financial capital, and seized a computer from which an e-mail claiming responsibility for bombings that killed 45 people in western India was believed to have been sent, officials said Monday.


The 48-year-old American has not been detained and is not currently a suspect, police said.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why not.....because he isn't muslim

 

[switchblade]

1. BJP is on the up and up and they dont have to do much to attract Hindu votes. Congress and its idiotic psuedo-secular, anti-Hindu, minority-first policies have ensured that Hindus are firmly in BJP's corner. In fact, since the attacks have occurred in states with a BJP govt, it is the BJP that has the most to loose.

2. Mein yeh naahi maanta ki sirf votes ke liye koi party aise ghiloyne harkate kar sakti hai (feel like speaking in Hindi today). Hum log itne bhi niche nahi gire hai.

3. "Indian Mujahideen" which seems to be an outfit of SIMI has already claimed responsibility.

Dude,

Agree that Congress is blatantly anti-Hindu and seem to nurse a congenital venemous hatred for any thing associated with ancient Indian civilization.. the Communists are anti-Indian, pro-Chinese slaves who would sell the country to get in the good books of their chinese masters. . these are the folk who act as cheerleaders to naxalites, so that says it all about them.

But BJP is no nationalist.. they are traitors, just like the rest. They are the ones who appeased terrorists at least as worse as the Italian w.hore's henchmen... remember the Kandahar highjacking ?

They dont have any scruples man..

And cmon, every politician in India sucks.

The same politician wears a BJP/Cong/Comm mask in the same year sometimes.. no point in supporting one against another.

India is so disgustingly governed that we are debating whether a basic security law like POTA needs to be implemented or not ! We are the laughing stock of the world man.. a people who just dont even care if thousands and thousands of their countrymen get blown up in broad daylight and STILL refuse to make any laws to protect themselves

I think India deserves a DARWIN AWARD for the most moronic politically illiterate people ever- who are so suicidally inclined that they are eagerly making a beeline to die from terrorists blasts rather than face up to them.

When POTA and even protecting Indian parliament becomes a "communal issue", it says everything about the average intelligence of our people.. and when communist parties get over 20% of votes, it makes a nation the laughing stock.

 

[pakhimmat]

Dude,

Agree that Congress is blatantly anti-Hindu and seem to nurse a congenital venemous hatred for any thing associated with ancient Indian civilization.. the Communists are anti-Indian, pro-Chinese slaves who would sell the country to get in the good books of their chinese masters. . these are the folk who act as cheerleaders to naxalites, so that says it all about them.

But BJP is no nationalist.. they are traitors, just like the rest. They are the ones who appeased terrorists at least as worse as the Italian w.hore's henchmen... remember the Kandahar highjacking ?

They dont have any scruples man..

And cmon, every politician in India sucks.

The same politician wears a BJP/Cong/Comm mask in the same year sometimes.. no point in supporting one against another.

India is so disgustingly governed that we are debating whether a basic security law like POTA needs to be implemented or not ! We are the laughing stock of the world man.. a people who just dont even care if thousands and thousands of their countrymen get blown up in broad daylight and STILL refuse to make any laws to protect themselves

I think India deserves a DARWIN AWARD for the most moronic politically illiterate people ever- who are so suicidally inclined that they are eagerly making a beeline to die from terrorists blasts rather than face up to them.

When POTA and even protecting Indian parliament becomes a "communal issue" and it says everything about the average intelligence of our people.. and when communist parties get over 20% of votes, it makes a nation the laughing stock.

On all points u cited bro.. i can guarantee Pakistan is well placed ahead of india...

 

[switchblade]

On all points u cited bro.. i can guarantee Pakistan is well placed ahead of india...

You think its a disease of S. Asians ?

Do you think S. Asia was better off under British rule ?

 

[switchblade]

On all points u cited bro.. i can guarantee Pakistan is well placed ahead of india...

Well, at least Pakistan doesnt have communists and imported italian w hores who dont flinch when 90 year old men bow down and touch their feet becoz of their white skin and a certain fanciful surname...

 

[MarathaPride]

Dude,

Agree that Congress is blatantly anti-Hindu and seem to nurse a congenital venemous hatred for any thing associated with ancient Indian civilization.. the Communists are anti-Indian, pro-Chinese slaves who would sell the country to get in the good books of their chinese masters. . these are the folk who act as cheerleaders to naxalites, so that says it all about them.

Well put.

But BJP is no nationalist.. they are traitors, just like the rest. They are the ones who appeased terrorists at least as worse as the Italian w.hore's henchmen... remember the Kandahar highjacking ?

The BJP had explored every possible alternative to freeing those innocent Indians who were trapped. Since there wasn't a single viable solution that wouldn't endager their lives, this step had to be taken.

Ofcourse the BJP has its own crooks and closet of skeletons. But I would rather have a party that works for (or tries to bring some semblance of) "Ram Rajya" than the third-rate Congress. Had the BJP been in power, we could have given these Kashmiris a fitting reply for not allocating land to the Hindu pilgrims (that, as you may guess, was the last straw for me...after that "secular India" simply became a myth).

Bharat, at its very essence, is Vedic. Non-Hindus are absolutely free to practice their religion, but they must realize and acknowledge that India is a Hindu country, and trampling over our rights in the name of pseudo-secularism and political correctness is unacceptable and will be met with harsh consequences. Think of it as applying the founding principles of Pakistan (where Islam is the cornerstone of the country) to India (where Hinduism will be central pillar of our nation) but without some of the problems they are facing now.

 

[Islamabadi]

Well put.



The BJP had explored every possible alternative to freeing those innocent Indians who were trapped. Since there wasn't a single viable solution that wouldn't endager their lives, this step had to be taken.

Ofcourse the BJP has its own crooks and closet of skeletons. But I would rather have a party that works for (or tries to bring some semblance of) "Ram Rajya" than the third-rate Congress. Had the BJP been in power, we could have given these Kashmiris a fitting reply for not allocating land to the Hindu pilgrims (that, as you may guess, was the last straw for me...after that "secular India" simply became a myth).

Bharat, at its very essence, is Vedic. Non-Hindus are absolutely free to practice their religion, but they must realize and acknowledge that India is a Hindu country, and trampling over our rights in the name of pseudo-secularism and political correctness is unacceptable and will be met with harsh consequences. Think of it as applying the founding principles of Pakistan (where Islam is the cornerstone of the country) to India (where Hinduism will be central pillar of our nation) but without some of the problems they are facing now.

By your logic majority of indians that voted for congress are third rate citizens

 

[MarathaPride]

By your logic majority of indians that voted for congress are third rate citizens

A friend of mine from UP told me that Congressis in his village promised Rs. 500, free meals for the next 5 days, or even a small color TV or small fridge (per household) to garner votes. Now you tell me what to make of such people. Not once..I repeat, not once did the Congressis actually mention what their fiscal, social, domestic policies will be, and how they will work towards the improvement of the village. Pathetic.

The current situation is that BJP generally gets votes from the urban (lower middle-class to upper middle-class) population, while the Congress draws its base from the poorer folk. For the BJP to win, they have to expand their base to include all strata of society.

While your country may have its share of problems, you should count yourself lucky that such laughable bull s**t doesn't happen.

 

[Islamabadi]

A friend of mine from UP told me that Congressis in his village promised Rs. 500, free meals for the next 5 days, or even a small color TV or small fridge (per household) to garner votes. Now you tell me what to make of such people. Not once..I repeat, not once did the Congressis actually mention what their fiscal, social, domestic policies will be, and how they will work towards the improvement of the village. Pathetic.

The current situation is that BJP generally gets votes from the urban (lower middle-class to upper middle-class) population, while the Congress draws its base from the poorer folk. For the BJP to win, they have to expand their base to include all strata of society.

While your country may have its share of problems, you should count yourself lucky that such laughable bull s**t doesn't happen.

Yeh right...but shuch laughable bull **** happens in Pakistan too.

 

[Indiagem]

A friend of mine from UP told me that Congressis in his village promised Rs. 500, free meals for the next 5 days, or even a small color TV or small fridge (per household) to garner votes. Now you tell me what to make of such people. Not once..I repeat, not once did the Congressis actually mention what their fiscal, social, domestic policies will be, and how they will work towards the improvement of the village. Pathetic.

The current situation is that BJP generally gets votes from the urban (lower middle-class to upper middle-class) population, while the Congress draws its base from the poorer folk. For the BJP to win, they have to expand their base to include all strata of society.

While your country may have its share of problems, you should count yourself lucky that such laughable bull s**t doesn't happen.

Such things are done throughout India. Poor folks can be lured for voting by giving some freebies. It could be cheap rice, cheap desi liquour etc. It is a malaise that is affecting all political parties.

I don't agree with the fact that BJP does not do this. They are as corrupt as any other party. It is true that there is urban support for BJP since the babri masjid episode.

All political parties are corrupt and inept. Even Advani had dinner with Mr Karat to pull down the government with the no confidence motion. BJP MPS are not doodh ka dhoola MPs. They are as corrupt as any other party MP. Some took money, some abstained, some cross voted against the party whip, some changed party during this no confidence motion.

This is what Indian PM Manmohan Singh has to say about this ill-advised no confidence motion brought forward by Advani-Karat combo.

http://www.thehindu.com/2008/07/23/stories/2008072356391100.htm

Below is an excerpt from his speech.

The Leader of Opposition, Shri L.K. Advani, has chosen to use all manner of abusive objectives to describe my performance. He has described me as the weakest Prime Minister, a nikamma PM, and of having devalued the office of PM. To fulfil his ambitions, he has made at least three attempts to topple our government. But on each occasion his astrologers have misled him. This pattern, I am sure, will be repeated today. At his ripe old age, I do not expect Shri Advani to change his thinking. But for his sake and India’s sake, I urge him at least to change his astrologers so that he gets more accurate predictions of things to come.

As for Shri Advani’s various charges, I do not wish to waste the time of the House in rebutting them. All I can say is that before levelling charges of incompetence on others, Shri Advani should do some introspection. Can our nation forgive a Home Minister who slept when the terrorists were knocking at the doors of our Parliament? Can our nation forgive a person who single-handedly provided the inspiration for the destruction of the Babri Masjid with all the terrible consequences that followed? To atone for his sins, he suddenly decided to visit Pakistan and there he discovered new virtues in Mr. Jinnah. Alas, his own party and his mentors in the RSS disowned him on this issue. Can our nation approve the conduct of a Home Minister who was sleeping while Gujarat was burning leading to the loss of thousands of innocent lives?


The point I am trying to make is that all political parties and politicians are CHORS and are just thinking of filling their own pockets rather than serve the nation. BJP is not much different from any other political party in India.

 

[MarathaPride]

For me, the BJP is the lesser (much lesser) of the two evils because it aligns the most with my political idealogy. I have just had it with secularism.

As for Jinnah, that man may have been right after all.

 

[switchblade]

Maratha Pride...

I think the only long term solution is :

1. Ban all political parties

2. Only allow those with a MASTERS DEGREE to run for NATIONAL elections. If they use religion or language or caste issues, throw them out of race permanently.

3. Stop the govt interference in social engineering.. or this blame game of secularism vs pseudo-secularism... a government has NO BUSINESS in SOCIAL ENGINEERING - its up to people to decide their religion, social values. Dont create the concept of SOCIAL JUSTICE and stuff like that - unless it violates basic human rights of a vast majority of people.

4. India's image and identity must be FIXED.. the communist version of India is scary - they fancy Indians to be nothing more than the cheap slaves of their communist Chinese masters without any sense of dignity or self respect... the congress shamelessly wants Indians to bow down to the Vatican and WHITE european socialists. But India is neither - its a multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-ethnic society with its own indigenous culture...

5. MODERNIZATION does not mean blind WESTERNIZATION or SINICIZATION. Indians should be allowed to have as much pride in their own civilization and use it as a source of strength to develop rather than the highest Indian elected official going abroad and making retarded, cowardly statements like "INDIANS SHOULD BE GRATEFUL TO THE BRITISH FOR RULING THEM" or "INDIANS SHOULD LEARN EVERYTHING FROM CHINESE".

 

[Kriketer]

Condolences with the families whose loved one lost their lives or got injured. In todays era, how easy is it to blame even a mosquito bite on any sort of a Muslim organization. Not defending any terrorist organization here, but it's just a thought. Indians are blaming Indians Mujahidins just on the basis of e-mail! how ridiculous! I am pretty sure that there is some sort of Indian government or India's local (hindu) parties involvement to carry out such horrendous attack. After every attack all they do is blame ISI, LeT, some organization in Bangladesh, and now they are blaming their own local Muslims. It's like Indians government and all hindu organizations "doodh ke dhulae hai!" like they can't even think about harming someone. 1947 and current state of Kashmir are right in front of you. Dirty politics is what Indians are playing, just like US, who usually carry out attacks by themselves and then play the "ridiculous lame blame game."

 

[Indiagem]

Whenever there is elections, there is always a chance that certain right-wing parties could do some mischief to divide the nation on religious aspects to garner a few votes and solidify their vote bank.

Before Godhra took place, BJP was in a losing position in Gujrat. But after Godhra and subsequent riots that followed, the electorate solidified with BJP.

So it is plausible to consider this as a insider job....but the overwhelming jihadi elements in India currently makes ones believe that they are involved too.

Its all confusing....I hope everyone just thought of the nations progress and worked for the same.

 

[switchblade]

For me, the BJP is the lesser (much lesser) of the two evils because it aligns the most with my political idealogy. I have just had it with secularism.

As for Jinnah, that man may have been right after all.

Dude I know how you feel.

In India, secularism is nothing but Hindu bashing, ridiculing HIndu belief systems and mocking Indian culture. Congress and the commie turds are the main villains.. outright evil and sinister... they just hate us man... but BJP is an oppurtunistic hooliganish party that says it understands the sentiments of Indian middle class, while stabbing them from the back.

In Andhra, Congress govt diverts funds from all Hindu temples to spread Christianity.. that too openly... if you question them, you are no longer secular and shouted down in the media... In Tamil Nadu, govt abuses Hindu belief systems and gods, in the name of "secularism" but praises only Islam and Xtianity. In Kerala, people are ashamed to say they are hindus or else they get targetted by communist "intelligentsia" (though I dont understand how one can be a filthy commie and still "intelligent").

All over India, we Hindus get a raw deal from the media.. Indian civilization and history is trivialized by the english media... everything related to Hindus is taught to be despised in our text books.

And if anyone dares challenge these things - he is called an RSS stooge.. screw them and their stupid, kindergarten logic.. I am faaaaaaaaaar from being a veggie, khaki short wearing, muslim hating, hindi speaking north indian upper caste male... am a non-veggie, liberal minded, telugu speaking south indian mixed caste guy..

And even if I dont fit their profile, just see what they do to people like us if we dare question the communists in Indian english media - which is totally owned by these turds... these people are filthier than sewer rats.. they support terrorism, terrorist atrocities and dont have any ideals like patriotism, cultural pride, etc... all they care for is distorting Indian history and destroying the indigenous culture, just to please their chinese bosses. I wuld luv to investigate the bank accounts of these turds, bet they must be overflowing with money transfers from China..

In India, the failed and laughably simplistic, yet jingoistic commie ideology is presented to us as "political correctness" and as the next best thing after cheese cake.. No wonder Indian voters deserve a Darwin Award coz they still vote for these turds even though they are responsible for undermining our national security and deaths of thousands of people each year.

 

[Braveheart]

lol... Karzai just said to World Media that Fight for terrorists and terrorism should not be in Afghanistan but Pakistan.. I am surprized about the fact that this comment of his was actually the headline in BBC news yesterday

Sorry to say but Karzai is currently the worlds biggest 'P***K.
This un-grateful 'bufoon' hasn't got a clue.